So hello, everyone. This is the first time that we have actually a podcast in real life. And we are in Jordan's Hewitt's here in San Francisco where we work around mission. And we are just like, after yesterday's event for Magic Leap, I had the opportunity to just stay a little bit more San Francisco and I just got the opportunity to have like a little talk with Jordan. So please go ahead, introduce yourself. This is a space that is for me to show to the community that I host every weekend every week. What are you know, what, what our guests do? Like, what are you doing here in San Francisco highlighted in here? What has been your career until now? What you're interested in? And how did everything that happened to you led you to know about reality or the sergeant? Yeah. No, I'd be happy to dive into a yes. So yes, it's great to be here. Thanks to him for organizing this. We're posted up at a we work office. And we're talking about all these good things. So I think to kind of give you some preference preference of my history, my background is I actually got started in the tech industry, because I grew up in San Jose, California. So I grew up here in the Bay Area. And I've seen the tech industry evolve over the years. So growing up the Bay Area, right, I would go to meetups similar to the one that we hosted the other night. And I would go to these meetups as a kid because I really wanted to learn how to build my very first app. This was back in 2010, like 2011. This is when the iOS was brand new. And I think the Android version that was out was android 2.2. I think it was it was like kangaroo tail. And so I got my very first droid device that was the old cell phone that you could flip up. And I was like, I really want to make an app for this. So I learned about this SDK called Corona SDK. And it allowed you to do cross platform development to do iOS and Android apps. And at the time, I didn't have a lot of knowledge on like how to do Objective C, that was, this is before Swift, right? I didn't know how to do Objective C, I didn't really know Java. So it allowed me to code in Lua. And I was able to make cross platform games for iOS and Android. And so that experience is going to eat up through meeting developers like growing up in the Bay Area, I was able to see kind of the mobile industry really evolve and how quickly it did evolve. And I was able to make games. And so I created an over probably about 10 to 15 different apps for I started off with doing an Android Google Play Store, we would set up apps, then I transitioned over to the App Store, and the Kindle Fire and then the book app store that Kindle Fire first came out, they were platforms that were very, very easy to monetize, because you were able to put up a game for like 99 cents. And since it was super easy to monetize, I was able to like make substantial revenue by just uploading my games to the book and Kindle Fire. And so that experience using Corona, building these games, I was able to actually pay my way through college by like making mobile games. And this is before like XR was even a thing, right. And so basically all that experience, right? It might be working in in Silicon Valley, I got my first job in developer relations working at a small startup called Putnam and that experience in deverill, that's where we kind of augmented reality started to first become a thing. I remember when iOS came out with their AR toolkit. And you were able to create augmented reality apps using an iPhone. And so I started hosting this meetup community at the startup and I called it SFA development. And the reason why I started this Meetup group was because I wanted to provide a place where we could all get together and to learn about coding. Because growing up I went to meetup groups, right. And I would meet people will have these meetup groups that helped me learn how to code. And so I really wanted to provide an atmosphere where you can learn about technical concepts together. And since my interest was video game development, I wanted to kind of encompass and highlight developers that were doing really cool things for game development, so we had a number of augmented reality people come and talk we had people from like all over and that kind of transition. So I went from Deborah, I worked at Salesforce, I then transitioned over to product marketing. I worked at Twilio for a bit. And right now I'm doing product marketing and hashey Corp hashey Corp. We do like multi cloud infrastructure automation for large corporations, tools like TerraForm fall, right or the open source ecosystem. We also have Enterprise and Cloud products. So it's been great because that throughout the years, I've been able to grow this community, this gaming community. But I've also gotten a lot of experience in developer relations and product marketing, which I think really helps you create amazing developer events. And so I've got to really see the entire gaming industry evolves. And I've seen how AR has evolved how now XR has become a really amazing thing. And it just also seeing the rise of cryptocurrency, I think that's a really interesting thing to see. Because I remember when I was on one of these coding Labs, which is meetups, this guy came up to me and he was like, you know, you should definitely buy bitcoin, like, it's gonna be like the next best thing, right? And little did I know that coin now is worth so much money compared to what it was before. So it's just been great growing up in the Bay Area and being able to test see how technology has evolved over the years. Thank you so much for this intro. I think the value of the community is like, for me, I kind of understanding more and more in time, like you, I kind of like, started to code and got closer to what I'm doing now. Thanks for Thanks to, you know, people like to they organized hackathons, especially around the world, like one of the first one I went to was in LA, then I tend to go to Boston for them it reality. And then being like, why, you know, persistent in attending these events, seeing the evolution of that technology. And I now like, I kind of want to make also community of people here because I want to stay in the loop. Like I feel like the first use of the community intact, especially it's to really see what other people are working on. What is What are the hot topics? How you can merge your Yes, we'd like what people are saying. And I think that did really priceless experience. Yesterday night, we were liking, almost like 300 people there. A lot of people interested in what we were doing. And I found like, very powerful to put people together. So here is to keep going on this people on this trajectory. You said that you developed obviously Corona for iOS and Android. So first buffer seems like a great value for your experience. I also think why the same because, I mean, the reason why I adopted unity in the beginning was just not because it was a very visual, still very visual tool that I really liked, like seeing what coding is happening on a country. You know, a kind of like a 3d environment. But what I think is also that unity allows you to build your app on ideally, every device like on console, iOS, Android. So what ran out there that I There are a lot of standards that are coming through and you start in the stars well. And I wonder like, what's your view of like, these kind of cross platform situation? Like what how do you think things are going to evolve in the future? Would
you reach for like a base layer that puts everyone on the same? Place? Like what would be your? If you ever worked with this tool? What would be your favorite? Someone pick up game development today? And
what would you recommend? Yeah, well, I think there's a lot there. Right. So I started with karma, because like, as an indie developer, it's really challenging to three, two different claim bases, and then have to worry about your assets looking the same on each device, right and dealing with all of those sorts of technical challenges of porting a game to two different platforms at two different public bases, things like physics, things like the way the image appears on the screen. All those things to different device to device, at least that's how it was in the past. And so what I think I what I did is I started on Corona, I then transitioned over to et later on, when unity became more established, because the power to use one codebase and import it to consoles, to PC write to mobile, that gave me so much flexibility as as an indie developer, you don't have the time or bandwidth to have, you know, maybe five or 10 developers on your team, each working on a separate codebase when you want to focus on innovation and actually shipping your game. And so if you think about how much time a cross platform SDK saves you, it's really incredible, right? Because if you spend, let's say it's, you know, 500 hours building your game from start to end. That's a pretty reasonable small title, right? Doing two different code bases could take you 1000s of hours, and all that extra time. There is less time that you have to spend on marketing. Because the thing is when you're building an application, marketing is probably 50% of the work, right, you're building an application to build a business, right at the end of the day, you want to monetize, you want people to be able to consume your app, whether just an Excel or whether just mobile, whatever, whatever it is. And so you have to think about your time as money. And the more you start to think about that, you want to use tools and services that help you go to market quicker. And so there's a point that I advocate for all the time, use the API's and third party SDKs that allow them to do this. And so I would constantly delegate right when it came to infrastructure, using API's and tools that allowed them to scale right on when it came to like your back end servers, right, like same sort of thing, like I implemented Pub Sub frameworks where I would pay per message that was being sent. Because the thing is, if I were to host that infrastructure myself, I would have to send huge dedicated server costs. And I wouldn't be able to scale as like the peaks and valleys went with it with like user, with, with like, users playing the game. And so I think that now a lot of companies have made it so easy for you to just implement an API and just pay for the service, that at this point, there's not really subject to building it yourself as an indie, you want to focus more on? What is the gameplay experience look like? How does it visually look like? Are there enough features in the game, right? And then you want to offload all of the infrastructure costs, all of the backend server costs, write all of that to external parties that specialized in that one specific thing? So yeah, hopefully that answers kind of your your call. Yeah. That's great. Because a lot of developers and they talked about this side of things, like, I totally agree with you, like, if you are in a team, which is very small, you want to think about like, like, what's the goal? Like, are you do you want to support yourself as a sole Dev? In that case, I mean, your product is really you your time and how you make it. So you can really spend time in building that company out of your product. But if you want to be at the company, and you take the time to be with all of those therapists, that means you have a very different model in your mind, like you're gonna probably take Valley, it's gonna take you a year before to see revenue. And, you know, those options, but right now, there's so much going on, like, I remember I was using for getting back to Unity app like photon. Yeah. And that was, you know, like, one week, I provided like, a prototype to a client once. And you know, that was my deliverable. Done. So yeah, there are those things that I think he comes very convenient. In terms of like, game development, I feel like now game development became a skill, which is very scalable, toward a lot of different other environments, it was really hard, particularly if you are if you are very experienced about like 3d environments, and how to optimize games and how to, you know, like, everything that relates to games is very much like feasible and bringing into the world. So do have you ever developed before? It's just a question like, if you've ever developed before, it's our app store. Interesting doing that, too. Yeah. So I am starting to try. And what I realized pretty quickly was there was just a lot of challenges around it. I did develop a little bit on the Magic Leap one, me and my coworker, we created a Pub Sub, basically like communication between two XR devices where we would do things on one device that would appear on the other. And I also created a unity leaderboards app that worked with a Magic Leap, working to basically like save high scores, using a KV store and create your leaderboard. So I have played around a little bit with with it, the challenge for me was actually going to market and creating something that was scalable, and also that I was able to monetize. That was the hard part, right. And so what I had to do from like, in the kind of a business decision was I kind of figure out, like, what is my target market and what type of games do I like to make, and also what type of games trying to sell, and I can monetize. And so I focused a lot on the console markets at that time, because I felt that like the Nintendo Wii U, right. And those consoles, you were able to put out games like fortnight, and a lot of kids would purchase it. And there was also a huge amount of like social media pushes around these devices. So I wanted to put apps on the back because I knew that I could monetize it and the development barrier to entry was a lot lower. I could make a simple tool. It was very consumable, very easy. Like for my development cycle standpoint, right to get the game out there. And so that's what I focused on because I wanted to focus most of my time on marketing. So that way people knew about it. Right? Once again, that whole sort of thing I mentioned about 50% of your time should be harping 50% of your time should be development, right? You're building a business. It's not about just developing an Apsara, or developing video game. It's about building a business, right? And so that was my focus. Now, what I was told developers in the current market, right is VR, the metaverse, right, all that sort of stuff has really taken off. And so I think that there's huge opportunities in x r, and also in VR, to monetize, especially at the enterprise level, like there's so much opportunities because there's people wanting to create these really innovative experiences, but there's not enough talent and people that have that knowledge to be able to build those experiences for enterprise. So I think that if your passion for XR, there's definitely money to be made. And it's worth your time. I think the challenge is really figuring out what use case are you focus on? And how do you become the best person for that specific use case, I became the best at creating really funny games for Nintendo that got a flu shot, I created this game called Ingram that went super viral and a bunch of kids played it because it was just as noxious to the platform. But it was extremely difficult, because it was almost like one of the most hardest games that you would ever play where we use would pop up on the screen, and then we'd have to dodge the means or die. And so a lot of YouTubers played that game because they're like, oh my god, this is the most insane, ridiculous game you've ever played. But that was my marketing strategy, right? Create something that was so outrageous that it was terrible. So I think when you're approaching what the XR market or the VR market, I think in VR, there's a lot of opportunity there, right? Especially things like you'll VR chat. A lot of there's a lot of like funny YouTube videos of people playing VR chat, or the live poker game is like really popular right now on tic tock and like people playing poker and like a virtual world. I think if you can create some sort of interactive experience with someone else in VR, or even XR, a lot of people are kind of craving those sorts of multiplayer experiences. Single player experiences in VR are still like, good. But you have to make that VR experience so different than what people have seen before in order to monetize. And so I think bringing out the opportunity for multiplayer experiences is really where I would focus if I was to go. Yeah, you mentioned VR chat. You mentioned also your game got viral, I think both of these components have to come and factor that in something that can be shared. And it's kind of like, I also saw a lot of stuff for VR, especially usually those always in the direction of something that is quite funny. And that it's a cool strategy to like, but what I find interesting is also the fact that like that you are not only relying on the VR technology for being marketable, but you're also relying on existing technology, which is the smartphone. So like social media, I
know this, I think it's a mistake to think about XR, like his own system, because it just like an extension of other stuff that we are indeed a lot. And you can see, there's a lot of discussion, like there's also into how you interact with things, and how much familiars to be the interruption in that. So yeah, like, staying also the star reom. I think like, in the last one person's last episode, we had we have like some guests that are very familiar with both SAR world and AI world that have like full presentation about their job, what they're trying to do mixing reality with AI who in a more like creative way, we know more like enterprise, the way trying to create a solution, very simple how to translate messages in real time, like subtitles, or maybe creating a bar field, they're using prompts based interaction, or, you know, like, kind of scanning environments and being able to tweak these environments based on, you know, some AI inputs that you provide to 3d models. The question goes, it's very simple is like, Have you ever been exposed to these new emerging technologies? New I wouldn't say I would say booming technology, which is now AI. And if you ever thought of seems like you're very focused on trying to think about your marketing strategy, and your product, so I wonder if you ever thought of it that those moments that you see around scrap some of those mines and how your new product 2.0 would be starting to be created? Yeah, well, I think that there's a lot of room. You know, X R VR for, for AI, what I've been seeing that as interesting as like, as we might not have as much budget to create, like having artists creating assets, like, let's say, for your character. And so what I've been seeing is really interesting with some AI tools is being able to, like basically put some words of like, I want to have that is it like, I want to generate 15 different hats or whatever, right some item for your character and like AI and generate those specific items. And then in your game, right, then players can purchase those items for like currency, right. And so I see AI being a really good way of creating content in your title, without you having to do a bunch of work hiring artists or contracting that out. Because especially if your character has different clothing items, that'll that's something old injury with AI. And I think what's also interesting is things about titles that, you know, maybe it's an axon or an app, and you're simulating, like some someone else being in the room or something like that, maybe it's like you're having a conversation with a chatbot. But the chat bot is potentially like chatting to you or some other sort of AI that can then feed information back to you. That would also be really, really interesting as well. So I'm excited to see what people create. I think that was still very early in the AI wave. And we do have API's available for it. But I think we're still really early. And so I'm kind of excited to see what API's will be available how the technology will evolve. And when will it get to a point where it can be so customizable to your specific use case that I that it didn't make sense for developers to start implementing it into their, into their applications? Yeah, I like this. I mean, I've seen a lot of Dan was a line of like, NPC character that follows that, and it becomes super smart. And they have very long conversations. I mean, I still listen to when I went to the MIT reality hack, a lot of people of course, use chat GPT embedded in their own application, there was this kind of like, A, because what was going on was down on the mental health side. So I knew a conversation that comes down to steam. So yeah, game development is really like, I don't know, I wanted the next relation like games, how it's gonna look like and honestly, that was going to be crazy. Are you planning to do any event? Because they're their actual future? With AI? Yes. So I've been talking with quite a few people about that whole concept of like generating AI images around gaming. I think right now, it's been hard to find like super qualified speakers that have a ton of experience in it. They're definitely, definitely out there. So that's definitely going to be I'm going to have a meet up around AI and gaming. I'm just waiting to see some really innovative and exciting use cases around it that we can show off in front of people. It's a on stage. Yeah, yeah, me too. And I would love to see, like, the, I think the very first part of AI comes out when you try to control it. Right? You try really to align it. And even those image model language model seems to be very hard to get a coherent result for a very long time. And, yeah, let's suppose that, you know, song from the titles, PlayStation release this game, you know, how many side effects you could have out of it? You know, like, how you're leaving something in the open? And we cannot really, it's too late. It's very risky for me. Yeah. And the challenges with consoles that I've experienced is like consoles like the Nintendo. They you have to sign very proprietary stuff, you know, basically, with content moderation, because all console games have ratings, right. And so when you're doing user generated content, or AI generated content, who's to say that AI will generate something that potentially could deal with it appropriate? And what I've had happen to me is I've put out a game that was rated E for Everyone. And because it had you know, one word in it that was deemed to be teen on it later, or like I had done it right and that was actually considered heartbreaking. Violence even though it like I, when I did the self rating of it, it came back E and so Nintendo actually had to pull it from the store. Because the rating didn't match up until I read, submitted the binary with the updated ESRB information. And so with consoles, that mark is, like very protected. And so AI could definitely, there could be some challenges there. And what I also don't know is, you know, when it comes to these these consoles is you have to submit all of your network protocols to attend to and be like, hey, like, you know, I'm going to be calling this server and it's gonna be feedback, this information, and you're very specific about what servers are you calling? Are you going to be hosting it on Nintendo servers? Are you your own server? How are you going to basically make sure that you have 100% uptime for the application? Right. And so there's a ton of work that goes into that. And so I think for a lot of Indies, they might actually do all the AI generation, like, on their local machine, and then implemented into the game, and then publish the game without actually calling some sort of API. Right, right. So doing all the heavy lifting before the game is launched with a guy holding the creation of the game, right? Or if they have a they do it to do a deployment in a way that they can remotely always kind of update. What is salaries? Yeah, this is you know, that's, it's a lot on the you know, how a game happened. And I'm glad that you have this kind of like, in the marketing experience. Super cool. So going ahead, and actually, today, I'm going to this event, which is called AI for social impact, which I don't really know what to expect the kind of needs that the topics that we just talked about, which is basically VR chat, like, connection based. Seems like there is a deep link between like something that is successful, whatever you saw are just a normal game, in something that can be shared. So your game went viral, because it created like enough news to be like, Oh, my gosh, everyone needs to be playing this game. Like what like, and tonight I want to I want to go see what what really what are the strategies that are like people are thinking for AI applied to this social games? Basically, when you when you saw your game going viral on Tiktok, or YouTube, something like that? What has been your first reaction? You're like, I was expecting this like, like, I knew that this was my marketing, and it's just happening, or you're like, Oh, now I have so many more ideas for what's next, like, did you think something clicked? And you understood people more?
I mean, definitely, I think when you go through those sorts of experiences, right, when you kind of create a viral game, you have to start kind of thinking like, what did I do? Right? And what's it What could I have done better? I think what, for one why it was so viral was I released on the Nintendo Wii U. And that platform alone had very, very low concentration of games are probably only between two to 500 games on the entire market. So any game that would come out would just get a ton of organic visibility, and a bunch of press would pick up on the game and write articles about it. So that was the first thing. The second thing I did that really made the game fake with consumers was I created the most outrageous YouTube trailer where it wasn't gameplay on the game. It was a whole new game. It was almost a montage parody that was not Reddit, where it was just so outrageous, and I hadn't real life components to the trailer. So I only show like, like maybe 10 to 15 seconds of the gameplay. Everything else was just memes. And like a really funny compilation video that I thought would resonate with kids and make them walk by it. So that video alone, and that got put out a bunch of YouTubers that have heard about it. And they were like, Oh, we heard that this game is coming out. The third part of the equation was on Nintendo. They have this community called beavers, which was this community of a bunch of kids that had Nintendo devices and what I would do is I would post on that reverse page every single day. And I created a script that was like everyone's posts in my communities. And what that did is that made these kids feel like oh wow, if someone who's a verified developer is like engaging with my content, and that made them feel like oh, wow, like I really want to support him he's like a really cool person right and that kind of freedom that firefighter ality effect to the audience, I was on an attendant platform. So those were the three things I did really well. I also didn't reach out to people on Twitter via ATMs that was like, hey, like, here's a free code for the game. Here's the trailer and one of the some YouTubers saw it that had a loss, all the words, they were like, This is the most outrageous game. And a lot of them they created content, because they thought the game was so bad that they were so surprised that Nintendo even approved it right. And so it was this whole meme about like, the worst game ever has come out on the Nintendo platform. Because if it was a bad game, but it was it was meant to be that like, I created the game on purpose, because it was supposed to be a meme. And so to have people feel super negatively towards it, but then also to have this whole community that absolutely loved it because it was so outrageous, it was really cool to kind of create that, that like defied, right. And that controversy is actually what drove sales to the game because the people that hated it, still bought it, because they wanted to like talk, like talk about it, talk about it. But the people that thought it was outrageous and funny, they wanted to buy it because they wanted to show their friends and just be like, Haha, this is like the funniest game that you've seen on the Nintendo platform. So what I always say from a marketing strategy is, you know, any publicity is good publicity when it comes to gaming, because people are talking about it. That's a good sign. Right? So ultimately, you want to have good publicity, but I think depending on the type of game that you create, want to stir a little bit of controversy and get people talking about it. So yeah, it's funny, just like, I mean, they know what when you publish something you like negativities always, like, easier to spread. Seems like, I remember, there was this game that I bought some time ago. The names desk. One, Kojima Productions, and this game is like, you're just like, basically, a person that is carrying things and is bringing it from place one to place two, that's all about it, like in all of this game, and you just like open world, beautiful graphics and everything. But I saw a lot of backlash came out from real gamers, because like, this is not a shooting game that is so boring. There's just there's basically just a movie. And I just say really worked for me to just like go get that game because that was I'm actually interested in not like shooting game, I want to have like my cinematic beautiful game to see in my VTV. Right. So I think that that will step on strategy to catch the Kashmir fully. And this happened constantly without listening. So it's good to kind of those the positive, negative, definitely included in the algorithm. And also, once again, the community seems like is a very important aspect. Like, there's no way that something does come out, or comes out. And just like, even if it's like the most amazing game, or the most amazing experience, no one really cares until they can relate to it in a certain way, which is like social media, which is a memes, which is anything. So let's go on a little bit, I want to know a little bit about the San Francisco scene. Because I feel like a lot of people that have all these words. Most of them there was also like me, they can't now is happy from here. So they are planning to move to itself. They're planning to move to California, and they're looking around and see should I be in Malaysia? So what do you think, especially in these times? What do you think the city is delivering to you? You like living in the city? Pros and cons? This goes a little bit more personal. But I think he's very insightful, since you are actually, you know, living here for a long time. So yeah, no, I mean, I've been living here for over five years, and I grew up in San Jose, I did live in LA for a bit. For college. I've lived abroad, as well, as I've gone to see a lot of different places I travel a lot as well. I think, you know, I really wanted to set my roots down here in San Francisco. I recently purchased a house here because I'm like, I really wanted to connect to the city. Because I think in order to live here, you have to be really successful. And you have to surround yourself with other people that are really successful. And everyone that I meet in San Francisco, for the most part is some of the most brilliant and hardworking individuals that I've met and they really care about what's the next best thing that's happening, how can I get involved in it, and they're really driven because they have passions in so many areas of technology. When I've lived in other places. I felt that I haven't seen that same level of passion at least in the tech world is much more diversified into other industries now make la for instance, right everyone is really the acting, more marketing side of things and like you know, social influence or Right. When I've been to Europe, right, there's been a walk different focuses in different, different areas. And I feel like San Francisco just is the hub of like everything tech. And so when I meet people on the street and or go and go out, right, I asked them, like, what did I do? Oh, I'm an engineer, like, oh, I work in sales, like, oh, blah, blah, blah. So I just hope the people that live here are really successful. And I just think that the company that you keep, and the people that you surround yourself with are kind of what you become. And so the longer that I've worked here, the more people that I've surrounded myself with that are doing really cool things. And that's enabled me to like grow my meetup community, right, because I wouldn't be able to grow a meetup community like I've grown, we now have over 6000 members if I didn't host it. And I'm in a central hub, where a lot of those people with and because a lot of also big conferences happen here, right, we have the Game Developers Conference at conference here at Moscone Center. RSA is happening this week, right, that security conference, I could just name off how many conferences happen here at Moscone Center. And because I've been able to create meetup events around those opposite, like those, those auxiliary events, I have been able to create exhilarate events around those big conferences, people that join my community, and then stay involved in the community. And eventually they end up moving here and that they come to my events, right. And it's kind of just a reoccurring loop of good feedback about people come in, and then attend the next event. And so that's kind of why I love SF is I think that if you are willing to work hard, and you're willing to you know, pick up extra work and put yourself out there, the city will will reward you for that, it just takes a lot of work, a lot of perseverance and not giving up. And I think for a lot of people, you can kind of give up and go to somewhere that has like a lower cost of living. But the thing that you have to keep in mind is that a lot of the most innovative companies are based in San Francisco still, even if they're remote, they still are based here. And so I think that that is also something to keep in mind is like, if you're trying to get higher paid or trying to negotiate and uplevel your career, you want to live in a place where you can surround yourself with people that are also trying to do the same thing. Right. And and, yeah, I feel like, you know, community proudly, for me is like the most, the Pro that I found to a year in San Francisco, like, I feel like every event that you're gonna join proudly is like so insightful. And it's very easy to be self sufficient. Because all around you there are a lot of people that can, you know, just never free, they can support you with the very legal suggestion.
For example, I believe those in LA so like, I feel like I always like struggled to find like mentors when I was when I was growing in skills, engineering or in game development. And I feel like I kind of rely on a lot of online resources. Sometimes it was alignment. And that was great. But I have a feeling that if you are in CD like this long, you're just like a step away from someone that is doing proud, some really very similar to you or is actually the same boat. And also we are hearing we work. And I know that there's a lot of like negativity around we've worked for all the story that they had. But I have to say I'm very impressed with the facility. I'm very impressed to see like this kind of amazed that there's just inside this little room of like startup space, I didn't even know that it was a thing. So it's very impressive to see how like all of this culture of work and how it's very well established and organized. And so just good things so far. I have to say about the CDL some being here at times. So yeah, like, first of all, thanks so much for all of these ketamine sides of the city of how you create your community. And I think we can have delivered more efficiently than looking ahead for your future. What do you think? Like, what are your I like discussing also long term, like, well, how is how you think about life? And where is this leading you? You said you want to stay here for a long time. So you are here for a long ride in San Francisco. What's your ideal arrival? That's yours? What are you planning next? What's your next steps? Yeah, well, I think that I, you know, I'm still learning every day and I'm still expanding my skill set. I'm in product marketing right now. I want to continue kind of expanding my product marketing, still selling. There's a lot to learn there. I think ultimately, I'm definitely trying to move up the chain or whether it's a courier company or elsewhere. I don't know what's to come. I think right now the economy. He is struggling. People are not making their quarterly earnings as they were expecting. So we have really a huge influx of layoffs and good talent in the market. And so I think right now in the current climate, I'm just trying to expand my skill set and continue to stay busy. I think long term, though. Yeah, I think there's just a lot of growth opportunities, I think, focus on community building, you never know who you're gonna meet. So I think just continuing to try to build community and try to uplevel everyone else, everyone else is what I want to focus on. But then also, like, continue, do product marketing work on and then just see where that takes us. So I really love the cloud space, I love the security space, not only is there a lot of money in it, but there's also it's very rewarding, because you're getting to work with large enterprises that are solving really complex challenges. And so that is a space that I'm really enjoying working in. And I think I want to continue to stay. That's great. And also like, you know, that kind of recording the event yesterday night, like, it's great to meet people because they get to try what you're working on. And you get like actually, very, very good feedback, like very precious. Not even written stuff, you just see their faces. And you see how they react to what you're trying, which is like an XR head to oranges, whatever. So I feel like this is really also a hub for feedback for testing, like the ground for something that can be like bigger for the city. Well, thanks so much for your time, tends Yeah, I mean here, I hope that we will be part of some of your next events I will share with the small community I'm creating also. Now we are merging with another discord channel, which is like more than 1006. Members. Yeah. And they're all very focused on Star. So things are scaling up. And hopefully there's some sort of relapses video for you. Yeah, that'd be amazing. It would be also awesome if all the listeners if you're interested in XR, augmented reality, or you can join my meetup group. It's called SF game development. And you can find that at SF David all.com. And we have a meetup group that you can join and also a discord as well. So hopefully, we will see you all. Thank you. Cool.
