Kevin Irwin | Liturgy and Sacraments in a Covid World
1:51PM Jul 27, +0000
Speakers:
Jonathan J. Armstrong
Kevin Irwin
Keywords:
church
monsignor
irwin
communion
people
book
roman catholic church
liturgy
priests
sacraments
question
psalms
worship
ecumenical
called
watching
washington
roman catholic churches
vatican
hymns
We're overjoyed today to be speaking with Monsignor Kevin Irwin. This is the second time we've had the pleasure of having Monsignor Irwin with us on In Unitatem Fidei. We'll be discussing today his new text, liturgy and sacraments in a COVID world renewal not restoration available this year 2021. I should note that Monsignor Irwin is arch is a priest in the Archdiocese of New York, and research professor at the Catholic University of America. Monsignor Irwin has an earned doctorate from in sacramental theology from the Pacific you attend eo, San Anselmo in Rome, on Sr. Irwin, we're very grateful to be speaking with you today. Thank you as well, thank you. Monsignor Irwin, first of all, COVID has touched everyone's life, certainly yours as well, as I'm sure that's made all kinds of changes for your teaching and travel arrangements. When did you first decide to write this book?
Well, to be very honest, I didn't want to write. That's the funny part. A year ago, there were just too many moving pieces or pieces that were frozen. And we didn't know we didn't know what to do. And overnight, we closed churches and overnight, we stopped worshiping together. And it felt very, very scary, uncomfortable. isolating, and but as a couple of months went on, we began to look at the implications of this. And when you were worshiping church as we are with a structured liturgy, it's really chaos. Because we don't we didn't know what to do. There was no playbook. There was no how to there was no liturgy for COVID for dummies, nothing to do. So we were trying to pick up and put together what we could. And a publisher who I did some work for before he get to say to me, why don't you think about doing a book on COVID? And I said, that's where angels fear to tread. Right? I can't do that book. And then he said, Well think about it. And what I realized was we needed in the Roman Catholic Church, we needed not only to to cope with COVID, but to look at our own liturgical reform, and what that has been or what that has not been. So the agenda of the book is to remind us of fundamentals of Catholic worship. And by the way, in a COVID world, we can't do this. But we want to do that when COVID is over.
On sr, when we started hearing news reports, around March eight, I think it was in 2020, that the Roman Catholic Bishops in Italy, called a ceasing of the celebration of the Eucharist in Italy, where the American bishops approximately in the same timeline, also calling for a ceasing of the Eucharist.
It was I think, about a week later. And the reason was that Italy, as you recall, was hard hit, the Liberty area was very hard hip. And once that happened with such such ferocity, then our bishops and others followed.
Sr Irwin, the subtitle of your text here is renewal, not restoration. And you mean those two terms in a very particular way? Would you be willing to share what you mean by renewal, not restoration,
I do word so it's kind of important to get the right words. Um, I wanted to argue in the book that what we need to do in the Roman Catholic Church now is not just to go back, when COVID is over, and do exactly what we were doing, we should go back and evaluate how the liturgy had been conducted. And was that the fullness of what the Vatican two reform wanted us to do? So it's a time to renew, and not just restore what we had done. So evaluating music, evaluating how we do baptisms, evaluating communal celebrations of sacraments, have we gotten a little sloppy maybe over the years and not be as attentive to the richness of our symbols and actions. And also, in the book, I say, we're not I believe, and we'll be wrong. We're not looking for the new the way it was, it's the new different. We're going to be different after this in many, many ways. It seems to me business education, lots of things are going to be very different because of the computers and because of a way people are not traveling as much. So at the same time, I think the church I have no crystal ball about what's who's gonna come back. I mean, they'll be back well, that's simplistic to say I'm not so sure and and those who come back will be Joining us and a new venture will not just be the same.
It's a super helpful. So Monsignor, if I'm reading the trajectory, the thesis of your book correctly, you're saying there was effectively some unfinished business in liturgical reform, set by the theological agenda, Vatican two, and COVID. is giving the church a new opportunity to integrate those things into the life of the church. Am I hearing you correctly?
Well, that's now we have the opportunity now, whether people, you know, get the brass ring or not, it's up to them. But I think I think it's a time to sit back and think, well, how have we done this? And what can we be doing better, and certainly, a lot of the reviews over the years have been that our preachers got to get better as Catholics with all due respect. And maybe we've not been as attentive to some, some music that we we should be attended to about what we're singing and how we're singing it. Those are a couple of examples of what we might jumpstart in a new direction.
Please help me see, Monsignor Irwin, what are the themes coming from Vatican two? What are the the items on the agenda for liturgical reform from Vatican two that you think really need to be picked up again, and worked with in the present moment?
Well, if I could, and my students will laugh when I say this, can I sharpen the pencil a second here, um, Vatican to set the whole thing in motion. But subsequently, every liturgy and sacrament that was revised, had its own set of instructions. So if Vatican two forward to about till about, oh, the middle 1970s when a number of reforms came out? And I think the agenda is, well, let's look at, for example, and this is one of my opinions, but as well, based in church sources, I think that we have to be to look at the music we sing in Catholic churches, I think that we we adopted a lot of things very quickly. And maybe not all of it should have been put into the, into the handles, and maybe we should evaluate some of those, those hymns and those songs. And my argument is we should be singing more of the songs in our worship than hymns. Because psalms are really the church's prayer book.
And that's absolutely fascinating. And I'm just personally interested in that too. If one wanted to start singing the songs, or is there a book you'd recommend or a particular composition.
There were three or four out there. I was my former student, Richard race. But there were three or four out there in English, that that set the Psalms to recognizable music that is not necessarily Gregorian trapped, because I don't, I think chant suited a certain time and place. But now we can take the same songs and send it to different music. And that would be my argument.
That would be amazing. And the Psalms as common heritage for Christians of all traditions, that would be an amazing experience to develop that as congregational singing.
The curious thing about that, of course, is that we've adopted a lot of, for example, hymns of Martin Luther and initially that was that was given credence about an ecumenical gesture, how important that was. But at the same time, Luther himself was not generous in using the Psalter in his liturgies. And so he would add his hymns which were highly theological, and they taught people the faith, understandably, but I wonder if we couldn't come together with some of those ecumenically with some of those songs, sent to all kinds of music, it needn't be chanted all and have a staple, from which we can see, for example, I know that a 1940, the Anglican prayer book, put out edition of Psalms that we in the seminary used to sing the Psalms at the liturgy. So it's already happened in one way, and maybe we could do it again. or revise, revise it again after COVID.
What an amazing idea. Thank you very much for sharing that. Monsignor, Monsignor Irwin. Many of us perhaps viewing this program are not Catholics attending Roman Catholic churches. So share with us briefly if you would, what a Roman Catholic Church is doing at the present moment or the live streaming their services. How are churches adapting to this new situation where in person meeting is not legally possible in many states? Well,
my first reaction is how much time do you have? Because it's there's no playbook out. I give examples of what I know of what friends are doing. It's common now in our sizes of Washington, DC. We're in fact Episcopalian churches have not opened yet. Lutheran churches have not opened yet, but the Catholic churches have. And as we've opened, they've invented this term called live stream, which means that the priest is in church, with relatively few people because of social distancing. wearing a mask when he's not speaking, he's some places have some singing, some places do not sing, which is a major loss for us. The Gathering doesn't happen because it's just very few people can come. And it's, it's a liturgy in which they, the priests do exactly what he usually did, and, and pre preside. But it's, um, it's a colossally passive experience for those at home watching it. Because they're not standing or sitting or singing or coming together receiving communion. They're just watching something like it's a, you know, a movie on television. So it is not the gathering of the Kahala yawei and of the Church of God. It's not that it's, we're watching something that's going on. Now. Having said that, I want to say that there's a danger here as well. Because, um, when the Catholic Church first began to televise masses, in the 1940s, that's when it was, the Vatican issued a document that either you show that liturgy live, or you tape any show it later, but you don't pre tape it. So you don't celebrate on a Tuesday, and put it in the cans on Sunday. That's not right. You do Sunday as Sunday and play it later on. But you're not supposed to do it ahead of time to just have it in the fire. That's not that's not literacy, that's a movie method danger to this, I have to say, because, you know, we're gonna say, you know, on Easter day, this is the day the Lord has made. Well, if you said the mass yesterday for Easter, how do you do that? This is lint, we're still doing ashes instead of fasting and prayer. So that's an example of how this good thing might be turned around to be not what it should be liturgically.
On SR Erwin, if I can dive into a whole set of really technical questions, and if you'll be patient with me, I'd like to get into the nitty gritty. A lot of Protestant and evangelical churches are trying to figure these things out. Of course, many of the questions from Catholic priests asking you these things, I'm sure have to do with this level of detail too. So if you'll be patient with me, I'll take us into some really technical questions and detailed questions. So first of all, is it permissible for Roman Catholic priests now to celebrate the Eucharist via Livestream? And if if not, why not? If so, why so?
Well, they are able to, and many priests, many places do it on Sundays, some do it on the weekdays as well. But that's I also want to give a pitch for the priests. They were told overnight, do this, we'll have heat, what we'll do you live it. So we don't all have technicality. technical things that so that was a learned skill for them to do. So it's a value. But there are negatives, because at the end of the day, there's no gathering of people. It's not, it is not the whole church. Give an example, one of my priests friends, was giving a conference to families who have first communicants this spring was in first grade for the first time. And he and there were about 20 of them 20 sets of parents and he asked them online. Well, how many of you have been to church since since the pandemic, one headwater watching live live? Well, not many hands went up. So the problem there is, you're going to have a first communion for young people who have no recent experience of being in church. So it's going to be a curious odd a curiosity. Then he said to them, we have minimal participation because of the COVID you can't have your relatives come because we have to social distance. You've got to we can't give this children two species because we did that before now. It's one species of the bread and he said, You know, I feel I feel that I've got to say to you, we're gonna have to start fresh here because up with learning new home new vocab, a whole new way of living. So, there were there are negatives to it, that there are unintended consequences that are that can be difficult.
So Monsignor Irwin, just for clarity sake, when you say that some Catholic priests are practicing, they're celebrating the Eucharist via Livestream are they People on the other end who are watching that? Do they have some mechanism by which to participate in the eating of the bread and the drinking of the wine?
No. And sadly, no, that we it's the end of the day. Roman Catholic, sacraments are in person. If we're alive, we don't we don't we don't want. So all this taping is brand new to us. But theologically, it's, it's a novelty that has no real theological basis, because you're watching something and you're not being engaged in the actual presence of the memorial happening. And so what and the proclamation of the word is you're watching it, the watching people get receiving communion, but you're not receiving communion at home. You're, you're so it's, it's it's a very awkward thing. However, another challenge is our culture. It makes it easier, you know, it's, it's, I think about it, sometimes it's Uber mass, press the button, and where do I catch your mass on on the machine? Well, that's not what this is about. It's like a Gustin says, we come together as the body of Christ to receive the body of Christ. So it's, it's a, it's a challenge. And I have no crystal ball, about how it's being received by a lot of people.
So this, this is fantastically interesting for me. And I believe for many people right now as we as we look at church life on line and the core of that really is sacramental practice, even for those from so called low church traditions. That's the key question that people are wrestling with. And maybe even more important than the what our church is doing is the why are they doing it? So if you if you'd give me a pass through that, again, explain to me if you would, why is it that the Roman Catholic Church set says in your paraphrase, sacraments are in person only?
Well, it goes back to the Jewish synagogue, and they came together on on Friday night and Saturday, and they would worship and when I first came to Washington and into the parish out in Silver Spring, and there were two main synagogues and, and every Saturday morning, I was so edified to watch the people walk, and the men with their yarmulkes, walk to the synagogue to be together, they prayed to go together. I mean, and, and that was always something that stuck with me as an example of what we do, we come together. So it's, it's, it's the coming together, that matters, and it's live. And it's, and it's an interpersonal experience of the thick of words and gestures, and signs and symbols that that occur in a moment here. Well, it's just, it's just very flat, if it's done on, on, on live stream, because you're watching something that you should be in the middle of. So now, at the same time, again, I'm a college professor, so give me on the other hand, would be saying that school, on the other hand, in much of our culture, catering to the self is important. So I often say that, and a great insight. One time when I was flying back to Washington, I was in a bookstore, in an airport airport. And I said to myself, that says it all. The magazine of the 60s was people. magazine of the 70s was us. And now itself, when in fact, church is the self belongs to us belongs to people through the exact opposite. So in a in a culture that exhausts the individual, you're fighting a fight, even about getting together and our numbers were going down before COVID. Anyhow, so that's that the notion of belonging and committing, it's in an Uber culture is an iPhone culture. That's tough.
Monsignor Irwin, obviously, the content of your book is for from a Roman Catholic perspective for Roman Catholic theologians and priests but if I can ask a question and ask you to come in as a consultant, as it were, to non denominational churches that are currently practice, some of which are currently practicing a blessing via tele communication so you have the pastor or the minister, consecrate or bless the elements but the individual congregants are requested to procure their own elements from their fridge, a little, a little glass of grape juice and a Saltine cracker or something analogous to that. First of all, could some arrangement like that ever work in Roman Catholic churches? Why or why not?
Well, you're a very, very astute questioner. Of course, you add the word ever. As of now, we don't do that. Do I say ever? I can't say ever. I my suspicion is never. But I'm just because of the of the actuality of the event that that we are in contact person to person, I can't see that happening. Now give me an example. I'm across the street from the Washington's Cathedral National Cathedral here in northwest Washington, and on Ash Wednesday, in a lifetime service. And then you could sign up for a virtual confession. Now, confession is a big Catholic thing. But all of a sudden, I learned this from my Anglican neighbors. And what you can do is you can get a time on zoom, and talk to a priest, pastor and receive the prayer of the church. Well, Catholics don't do that. I mean, we do this live. But I just want to say that it's out there I that's after.
And then Monsignor Irwin, for those of us who rule, the fact that the church has experienced so much division, especially in the post reformation era, what what would your counsel be to non Roman Catholic churches? What can we do to ensure that we minimize any future separation by offending people, by the way that we're practicing sacraments today? Do you have any recommendations for non Roman Catholic churches generally?
Well, one of my recommendations, frankly, is that in light of COVID, it's obvious to me that there'll be a decrease in finances and income that churches can rely on. And I'm wondering if, as a church as a Roman Catholic Church, if we have three churches in one town, we're one church in one time that we can afford. Is this the time to share worship spaces and or social spaces and our social ministry with the other Christian churches around? I mean, it may be humbling. But you know, is that not the way to go? And what counsel Tricia said, and Jennifer, any third said, anything we could do together, we should do together, and we shouldn't be duplicating our efforts. And I think that's, that's one of the ways to look at it, frankly. And it may force, it may force kinds of agreements that Lutherans now have with Episcopalians for occasional communion, because it's, you know, we're just we're not, it's not available. I mean, it may be that that this forces us to an ecumenical new moments, or, or we get scared or whatever, right, but right away, and I think that it could be a very important ecumenical. Plus, as we come out of COVID.
We're calling lady everywhere to pray for that thing, Monsignor Irwin, that we pray that there'll be a movement to the spirit where there can be increased interaction with churches and mutual understanding. Monsignor Erwin, in March of 2020, is the COVID crisis is just unfolding. Pretty much the whole world the whole Christian world was lucky to Pope Francis when he told the Roman Catholic Church that it was not possible to celebrate the Eucharist online to receive the Eucharist online, but he exhorted people to practice spiritual communion. Would you be willing to share with us what is spiritual communion?
Well, in the book, I at one point, I said, What is the spiritual communion anyway, question mark. As though communion can't be, it's never not spiritual. Okay. But it's, it occurred, the spiritual communion rose up at a time when there was a great deal of scrupulosity about people being worthy to receive Communion. Give me an example. My dad was a plumber. And the Roman Catholic Church rules were during lunch, you could have one full meal and two meals that didn't add up to the full meal. That was the regulation. So my dad went to confession, the week before lunch, and as the priests Can I have an extra sandwich at lunch? Because otherwise I would faint. And the preset Of course, but and then my dad was a communion. But otherwise in the 80s images, he would feel unworthy to go into communion. Such scrupulosity so of course, then I moved to Italy. And what's the Italian diet but one full meal and two little things that did an omelet and a piece of bread, but you have one main meal and that satisfies you. For two days. It could be so my point is worse. People ask me about any any little thing and I remember that in 1972 when the catholic church but at a document on pennants there was a cartoon in the New Yorker, and it was a Lucifer, and all kinds of devils around with pitchforks and fires. And the little devil said to Lucifer, what do we do to all the ones who ate meat on Friday? The Friday dispensation went out the window. And we thought it was a mortal sin. So I mean, you got to realize so but but to fill the void, when you couldn't go to Communion, you'd read this prayer to yourself and stay in the pew. And that would be a spiritual meaning I want to unite myself as fully as I can, but I can't go to Communion right now. And that spiritual communion became a substitute. I have to say that in the last 100 years, I would say we've never in the Roman Catholic Church, we have never had the percentage of communion that we have now. It's got skyrocketed. So without receiving communion, the Pope said you can do this, but my reaction is, it's it's it's always it's like, it's like, it's not as good as but here's something we can do. But really, what is it? I mean, it's, it's kind of empty as a sacrament.
The reason I'm particularly interested in that Monsignor Irwin, is because we've spoken with theologians previously on this on this program about Eucharistic hospitality. And it seems that there's roadblocks where it's not possible today to express Eucharistic hospitality across churches. But I'm wondering if spiritual communion could be something that would be Bennett spiritually beneficial for interdenominational groups to practice? What's your view?
Well, if that were the case, then I would want to change the usual text that's used. Usually text speaks about, I can't receive you now. And I am unworthy. Well, the tricycle pronouns are usually plural. So I would wish that the the new tech saying that we acknowledge we can't do this, we acknowledge that we are on the path. Bless us on the journey. through Christ, our Lord man is what I would prefer. And it it could be serviceable, especially in those moments when, when one is at a service that one cannot keep you.
Monsignor Irwin, many commentators are noticing that technology is indeed a tool, but it's a tool that reshapes us and our perspectives and interactions with our world and who we believe ourselves to be. How is the practice of, quote, attending church online, reshaping our vision of who God is and who the church is?
Well, church is not meant to be in a computer. I mean, it's me, it's a live event one more time, and and how that shapes us? That's a very, very good question. I'm concerned about individualism, in our culture that is supported by watching television by myself, and watching the live stream max. I mean, I think that's a difficulty. And if the computer continues to do that, we've got to acknowledge that that's not the way we understand church today. I mean, virtual church is not not meant to be church, and how it shapes us. I have no clue really. It's an ongoing mean, I'll give an example one of our church historian said, I'm a better story than I have a prophet, and I'm better at history than I am about prophecy. But it's, it's, it's gonna do that it's not going to go away, that's for sure.
And Monsignor Irwin, if I can close with the question that we've been asking all of the interviewees on this program, were were asking theologians and scholars to envision with us what would it reunify church look like? We're calling on laypeople to pray for the unity of the church. So I asked you, what would it mean for the church to be united or reunited today? And what is it that we can do to pursue the Unity for which Jesus prayed and john 17?
Well, I have to say that I would hope and pray that we not become homogenous, that we respect various styles of worship. We respect inculturation. We respect each other on levels of theology and a bit but they be variety of practices. And I really believe that one of the major issues is that church bodies have to have a bit more humility. We've got to pray more about this, because it's complete scandal that we are, we're just, you know, I mean, a stone's throw away as a National Cathedral. at five o'clock this afternoon, I'll be at the National Shrine across tanto. Washington at Mass. And what does that say? And in between, we pass in all kinds of churches. It's, it's, so it's no wonder people scratch their heads and say, Well, what is this? And I do believe that you believe it. I believe that. Catholic orthodox relations are very close to a mutual respect and reunion, but they would have very different liturgical styles, certainly very different liturgies. But there, I think there's got to be more humility and more conversion. I think we've, we've written enough ecumenical documents, it's time to say, let's cut bait here, what would it be? Let's harvest the fruits of this, and what can we do? And I think there's a sense of retrenchment that the COVID thing could do to us rather than opening us up. And I think that's, that could mean i think it's a real danger anyhow, that is closing us in on the very same, the very same, the power structure, and I don't think that's the best thing in the world.
We're delighted today to have been speaking with Monsignor Kevin Irwin, priest of the Archdiocese of New York and research professor at the Catholic University of America, author of the text that we've been discussing today liturgy and sacraments and a COVID world renewal non restoration mailable from 2021. Thank you so much, Monsignor Erwin, for your time today. very welcome. Oh, with pleasure. Thank you.