Today we have the gigantic pleasure to be speaking with Dr. Wendy Liddell, Dr. Wendy Liddell is not only the president of Great Northern University in pristine and beautiful Spokane, Washington, in the Pacific Northwest in the United States, but also she's my former boss, and what an amazing boss, you were to work for Wendy? For those seven years that I was teaching in Spokane, it's great to be able to see you again.
Yes, I would agree, Jonathan. It's delightful.
Thanks so much for taking the time for this conversation. I'd love to get caught up with you a little bit, and also to talk about your work in founding a university. So one of the things that I'm looking forward to learning, and I hope our listeners are looking forward to learning this hour with us is how to become a university president. Wendy? But first, before we get into that this has been a rough season of COVID. For a lot of us this is we're recording the first week of January and 2020 22. It looks like we're going to be heading into a third year of COVID. What's giving you joy in this COVID season?
Yeah, that's a great question, Jonathan. I just reflecting on that. And I'm reading through the book of Genesis again. And it's starting the new year starting in Genesis reading, reading God's word, hopefully through this year. And I think I've just been encouraged by the Lord. I'm encouraged by the fact that we serve a God who is not afraid of transitions or journeys or travels, in fact, that he calls his people to do that, you know, to Abraham to come to Atlanta, which I will show you and to pack up your family and to go there. And as I've thought about this lot these last couple years and what it's meant, it's been a journey, it's been an unexpected journey, you don't quite know where it will end or what the next step will be. Or what you'll wake up to the next day, but yet we serve a God who is faithful, we serve a God who is in charge of all things, the God of heaven and earth, the width, Emmanuel, God with us, and he's trustworthy, regardless of what comes. So I've been encouraged primarily just by the Lord, time with him time with his people, and time with the students that I work with. And the ways that he's working in small ways in big ways in that season, despite the challenges that are there. So that's, that's encouraging to me.
When do you live in the beautiful Spokane, in the Pacific Northwest, one of America's best kept secrets, the sign that used to greet you, as you'd step off the airplane there in Spokane is near nature near perfect. And I think that was a pretty apt description of the area. How long have you lived in Spokane,
and I, Jonathan, I moved here in 1998, to a student teach and ended up marrying my husband. So man, that's 20 something years. And I think truthfully, we'll probably be here for another, however long, you know, at least another 20 years. So who knows what retirement will but again, this this is home and we're grateful, grateful to be here.
Retirement will hold skiing and backpacking. When the sounds great. When do you are not only a practice leader, somebody who's had a really unique challenge and is leading a really unique opportunity. But you're also a scholar of leadership, you earned your PhD from Azusa Pacific University in leadership, specifically writing your dissertation on women in leadership. Let's talk about about what leadership is to you. So would you be willing to share with us some of your core principles of what you believe good leadership is? Yeah, sure.
That's a great question, Jonathan. And I, I think, as a follower of Jesus, and the first principle for me is essentially that I'm a follower of Christ, that I, that God is, has given the work set before me for me to do to His glory, with what he's given me, that he is that ordained her of all good works, that it's his work that I'm involved in, and I'm called to give him my best and to do my best for him, so that he would be honored. So I think that that principle is key to me, is I lead out of my relationship with Christ and in leading, hopefully, I'm being conformed to the image of Christ in that, and that he's working in me and I testify that I've seen that some of these things have just scared me to death, right? To stand up and say we're starting a new school I felt like I was my reputation was on the line as a higher ed leader. And most recently, we had a situation were with a matching grant where the individual said, Alright, let's do it in a month. was like, Oh, you want this matching grant to be met a month. Okay, all right, let's do it. Um, you know, we're listening to other people listening to the Lord, not allowing my fear to get in the way of what God's speaking through other people and how he's working. I'm just seeing him continue to adjust. In them all the best ways, hope, hopefully me becoming more of a vessel that he can use. And so that's core to me is my relationship with the Lord. I think also connected with that. Please, degree degree of humility, I want to be somebody that walks this, that walks in humility, and in Christ is a great example of what that means. And that also is connected to servant leadership, one of the characteristics from that, I also tend to be somebody who's out in front, I know there are others who lead from the side or lead from behind, but I for Mike, me and my personality, and again into who I am. I don't, I prefer the leading in the front. And that's not everyone. That's not everyone's style, but just happens to be me. And then finally, I think I'm a big I'm also a big believer in team when it comes to leading, that you're leading teams, groups of people, to walk in, hopefully develop, to grow, to become who God wants them to be, to move into the places that God wants them to be. To function as a group. I think one of the testimonies of Great Northern is that as a team, we've seen God do what we could never have envisioned as a single person, or, you know, a couple people. So that is very leading a team is very important to me and leading them well. It's been an area of growth. But I think it's essential that it's magnified, almost you see, we've seen a group of people magnified when we work together and bring our gifts to the table. And then those create something that we never could have individually, individually done. So those are some principles for me, that are essential. I was thinking Leadership Theory wise, there's a leadership theory, but leadership theory by Scott Rodino, called steward leadership, which I love. And it's for believers that comes out of this idea of being a steward. I also, in the broader leadership categories, generally, like transformational leadership, and servant leadership are to two other theories that I lean into you personally, as a leader.
Wendy, most of us want to be good leaders. We don't necessarily want to get out in front, not everybody has the personality for that, and doing something challenging scares all of us. But most of us want to do something courageous and worthwhile in our lives. And in most capacities, that's going to require some form of leadership. How do we learn leadership?
Yeah. I, there are a couple, a couple things come to mind when I think about this, Jonathan, I'm one for the believer, I think in following Christ, He leads us into meaningful, meaningful service. So in whatever that looks like he gets to determine that right I think that's one of the things that I have wrestled with often his trust in the war of what he set before me to do that, if it doesn't appear meaningful to me at first, then I still soft, what is his trust in the Lord that he knows the reasons that he knows the work to do and that in itself, glory through that work. And again, for me, clarity, Peace Center, in that, that I don't need to worry about manufacture Xcode for my own. Gifts not being used, I just needed to walk with you and to do what you've called me, you. The other piece, I find, as well as I, and this is a little bit of me, but I when you talk about things that influence you that people you read the people you listen to the people you surround yourself with. They're those averages that still hold true that good, a good company produces in my mind, goodness, I'm so involving ourselves with people who you want to emulate. Those who you admire listening, watching, asking questions if you have the opportunity to do so. And then another part of it, Jonathan, honestly has been doing it. And again, the Lord has to open those opportunities to do it. But I tell my leadership class, all of our students that Great Northern are required to take a leadership class and I tell them say Yes, right. Raise your hand, and it gets easier. It never gets doesn't seem to get easier over time. But somebody needs somebody to make announcements on Sunday morning in church, raise your hand. Yes, I'll do it. You will probably not do it the well you know, do your best you You'll learn from it. Somebody needs somebody to be a camp counselor, yes, your boss needs somebody to take an extra via shift leader at work, volunteer, because in those opportunities of those small opportunities build into greater opportunities, surely we see that he's entrusted with little entrusted with, you know, that little too much and encouraged is not built. I for myself, courage is not built in the big moment when it comes is built in that the 20 years of small moments where you said yes, previously, when I looked at when we talk about our team at Great Northern, one of the things for myself that was important was Scott and I were part of a church plan for 15 years. Well, the church plan is very similar to starting a university, and a lot of the principles and realities that you go through. And I look back and think of saying yes to being part of a church plant was part of me then being able to say yes to starting a university, because it has similar similar principles. So then thinking about advice to people, you know, in the moment, say yes to the small things, right, that are set before you the challenges that may be a little bit out of your reach the things that are scary. All of those opportunities, and then allowing that courage to build into something greater. So if that's helpful, Jonathan, I don't know I I've thought about this often as I've coached tried to not coach but teach undergraduate students in that doing piece is something where I think yeah, that that means for them that they they just have to do it
was a great answer. Pardon the interruption of swapping out a camera
doesn't last more than about half an hour. So pardon? Oh, I'm sorry. It's just the state of the technology. Sorry about that.
You're fine. Donovan.
Cool. Wendy, I'm gonna go a little experimental. If you don't like this question, you can bat it away. And we'll just keep going on. But I'd like to ask you. So, Wendy, I'm fascinated by your story and fascinated by your preparation for this courageous act, you said that courage is not built in the big moments, it's built in the many small decisions leading up to that that's a very powerful principle you've articulated? Let me ask you a question. What are the unique temptations of a leader. So working in a team, we all have different seats on the bus, we're all occupying a different social space of these communities, these human communities that were involved in. And the leader has a unique opportunity, also unique temptations. Tell us how to avoid those how to practice avoiding and resisting the temptations that are particular, to those big moments when one is called to a role of leadership?
Yeah, I think there's been a couple of moments that have caught me in this maybe not might be unique to everyone else I have reflected that I think one of the things that's unique about the environment that we're in as a Christian institution, is that we believe that God is in this and that He's directing us and he's leading us. And I've had moments where it's easy. And I think people want you to claim some sort of ownership. When really, you're Scott readin says you're just a steward, right? You're just somebody who's been given a seat for a season by the Lord. And yet, you know, this sort of, well, what did you do and what, what have you done? And, and I have to, I think the temptation is to say, oh, yeah, I'm a great leader. Yeah, I was, I was ready for this. I was looking for this. But in reality, like I just said, yes to God, fearfully and half scared to death, and I was willing to sacrifice my reputation for, for something that I thought that he was in. And so I think that's the first at least for our Christian leader, the first temptation is to reclaim some of God's glory, you know, to, to want to not tell his story, but to tell your story and to be an owner instead of a steward of what he's given you. And I think that temptation every time I write something is to, to claim personal glory, instead of saying, hey, look what God's done. You know, look how God's leading us. Oh, thank you so much for responding. You know, the right answer. Thank you for responding to the Lord, not I wrote a really great like, piece of persuasive literature for you. Right? You're you responded to the Lord nod, then what the Lord's doing not to me. So I think that one's one for leaders is the cluster temptation to think that it's about you and it's about God? And in that another one is also again, that sort of selfishness of not announcing that the work that's been done is the work of many People, right? When I look at Great Northern, I think it's the testimony of a team is the testimony of a community. It's the testimony of starting out with people who said, I'm praying, and I think you should start a school, right that have the courage to actually email us and say, start a school, I think the Lord's in this, I think you should do this. And then going forward, it's the temptation to say that. It just is this, it's tempting to not recognize the gifts and the gifts of others, regardless of what position they hold, to, again, kind of claim that as Oh, yeah, I'm a great leader. And that's why we're here. No, I like to work with an incredible group of people who are gifted and courageous and gritty and persevering. And that's why we're at where we're at is, God just brought together the right group? Um, you know, I think I work mentioned Dr. Jennifer Mills earlier, she's a fantastic writer, an incredible writer, and producer, she's written most of our documentation for all of our applications, I think we could have done it without her right, because she is that sort of, you have to be able to write and write well, and she does it. And I, I don't. But so I think of even that, like that. There's another example of a team and then editors and people who edited the work and reflecting yesterday, our person who financially manages the finances, I trust her that she everything is done well by the book, when it's supposed to be done. You can't run an institution without somebody who cares about the details of finances, and God brought that person. So yeah, those are two unique challenges, I think. I find also the other one is similar as not to listen, to think that your idea is the best idea in the room because you have the physician at the table. When in reality, again, if you believe that God's brought together a team, that there's consensus in that there's work in that. That's another easy one is to think my day is the best. But that that humility piece comes in that idea of the word speaking through his people confirming it through his people has to be a piece of how that's done. So those are a couple ways, Jonathan, I'm sure there's more. But it is. There's lots of pitfalls, potential.
Thank you so much for your response. Wendy. I'm glad I asked. That was a there was very inspiring response. Thank you. Honest. And that's what makes it inspiring. Oh, yeah. I
'm hearing I'm resonating with what you're saying. I'm feeling it. Thank you. Wendy. So you wrote your dissertation. I think you completed your dissertation. 2018. Is that correct? Yeah.
2017 Yeah, literally the summer, summer before I essentially started Great Northern.
So you add all the 12 weeks to take a deep breath? Before you're going to put all of that learning to work amazing. You wrote your dissertation specifically on women in leadership, let's focus in on that topic for just a moment, if you would, what attracted you to this field of research women in leadership? And what were you hoping to learn?
Sure, I generally have loved the topic of leadership just have just in generally enjoyed it. So read books in it starting in my man, my college years, and have enjoyed that piece. And when I went to Zuza, I had narrowed it into the question of women leadership. And I think somebody had reflected one time that all dissertations are autobiographical. So some aspect of that was connected to my personal story, in choosing the topic, but also having been in Christian higher education. And maybe, however you put it on the spectrum, particularly conservative Christian education, it was intriguing to me to think about the role and the interaction of women leaders in that space. And so I think that was a particularly a draw for me. When we went into that, when I went into that topic, or went into that program was what does it look like to be a Christian, as a female as a leader? And what does that mean?
Wendy, our culture is we're all just fish swimming in water here. But from where I swim in the water, it seems like one of the big global cultural projects right now is to flatten out the differences between the genders. Let's see how similar we can understand men and women to be and when we do that, we might miss some of the differences between the genders as well, in your view, do men and women lead differently?
Yeah, that's that's a great Questions on then? Some other research has come out that no, they don't. They don't. There's not the differences are the differences are not there. Now there would be others who would say yes, they do. Yes, there's differences and some of the night that come to mind, one would say that, that women are more relational and men are more agenda driven i, where i stand personally, I would probably say that I think some of it comes out as a function of personality giftings experience, I don't know if I would agree, I would agree that I don't know if there's a difference in how individuals lead, personally. Now, then, if we were to go a step further and say, Do I, however, do I think there are pathways that are different for men and women? That's the part where I'd probably say, Yes, I would. I was recently in looking at female college presidents and only 30% of them are female. And that statistic is pretty common across companies. But when I look at pathways for women into leadership, oftentimes, they are delayed or deferred through personal choice or family situations. Typically, women are caregivers, whether it's for children or aging parents. And oftentimes, then that delays the amount of experience and individuals need to get into senior leadership roles. So that part of the pipeline, just surely on timing is often delayed for or individuals. And there are other pieces of choice as well that sometimes come into it for women of just wanting to better work life balance. However, I don't know, generationally that's gonna hold true in this next generation. Because both genders value, you know, value work life balance. So I I think there are some aspects, but again, you you can meet a relational male leader, and you can interact with a hard driving agenda, agenda driven female leader just based out of the personality and experiences. So it was a fascinating, and I think it's an area of research that's still needed. But it was a fascinating dive. And I would say Jonathan, experientially, though it's been interesting. The interesting part, though, is I think, when I read this is just kind of unformed thoughts. So this just speaking on an unformed way. The interesting part, though, is I think being a female leader, there is, though an encouragement to young women, when they see a female in a position of leadership that's been unique, that I am also on a board for Christian school. And I know that I've had women employees come up to me and say, Thank you for serving on the board. It's a woman. Right. And I think that is another piece that I didn't necessarily see in the literature. I mean, I wasn't looking forward as deeply. But that's another piece when I reflect upon kind of male versus female leadership is I think there's something inherently encouraging to younger women, when they see someone of their own gender, and a place of influence that encourages them and encourages them so that that piece, I would say, has been more interesting and living that out is being being in it being encouraging. The, the sheer fact that I'm a female in a position of leadership is encouraging to other women. Whatever way that looks like but that that's another that's just been a personal as I was looking at your question, thinking about us just when our personal reflection moment, that's not a research based statement, that's just been something I've noticed that I thought, Okay, this is hopefully influencing inspiring other women to do things that may not be leadership based, but would be interesting, or encourage them in, you know, to pursue whatever the Lord would have for them. Cool.
Thanks for taking that question about, are there differences between men and women as they leave? But about following the leadership of a man or of a woman? In your view? Are there differences what employees need from men, women leaders, men leaders, or from women leaders? Are there differences between those two things?
Yeah, again, I don't I think about followers, so let me just speak relationally I am I'm not just finished a recent personality test and it came out that I'm not relational. I mean, I'm inspiring and engaging but I'm not this like deeply relational person. And, and maybe emotionally engaged in ways that others are, which I know that about myself. And when I was thinking about, you know, the people that I lead are emotional, relational. And what does that mean for me to kind of put patterns in my day where I stopped by everybody's office and kind of engage or have a conversation, when I'd rather be in my office, checking off my boxes and thinking strategically about getting something done. And so again, I probably point to I think, recognizing that everyone around you has different needs based upon who they are, and how do you need those as a leader being important, to be thoughtful to be considerate to recognize that, regardless of gender, people are built differently, and how do you encourage and engage with them is valuable, regardless of who you are? How do you serve them? I think is the piece of that. Now, theologically, are uncertain spaces. I'm very cognizant of the fact that within conservative Christian spaces, being a female leader of a Christian college is sometimes a detriment. That I, there people based upon theological convictions who don't believe I should be serving in this role. And I acknowledge that they, they have an opportunity to think that way. That's not outside of the bounds of what could be thought. And I want to be respectful of them. And I'm not going to count. Okay, you know what I mean? Like, I believe that God has given me this opportunity, he's placed me in this role for the season, my husband and my church are believe that I'm a part of this role. So does the community hear that I'm gifted to do this? But that that's another interesting aspect. So do I, you know, when you think theologically, I will not preach on a Sunday morning in a church, or, you know, there's certain boundaries that are I tried to walk carefully within as a Christian serving in a Christian colleges that if I was male, I don't think I would have those sort of, I would not, if I was male, I would receive different invitations, and maybe take different opportunities differently. But again, I have colleagues who do that, and I'm grateful for them. They're gifted preachers and teachers. And so I take the spaces that I, within our theological space, I take the spaces that I'm called to, like, you know, the spaces that are available, and thank the Lord for them and entrust them with other people's life. So doesn't make sense on that. It is a delicate dance, I've often said it would be easier to be the president of a private, non faith based college than it would be to kind of walk walk the dance of being a female president of a faith based school. But again, that doesn't. That's okay. That I love the community that I'm in and I respect everyone's differences of opinion, and they get the chance to walk those out. But it is it does create some unique dynamics.
President Liddell I'm really grateful for your reflection in your honesty and letting us into your world a little bit. There's your process through that. Thank you. Thank you. For Marburg, Marburg University is a bastion of liberalism. So as you're talking, it's like, oh, yeah, I remember those issues.
Thank you for your thank you for bringing us through that helping us really appreciate that.
When you if I can ask one final question. It's a question that we ask all of the contributors to this program. And one of the things that we're doing in in a toxin feed a is we're, we're storm chasing, we're chasing this dynamic that's taking place around the world as everybody has an opportunity to speak with one another in a way that they didn't just even a few years ago, we're chasing the story of the increasing unity of the Christian movement. In some places in the world. Christians are coming together and seeing more II some places there's new divisions creeping in. So it's a very complex story. I'd love to have your reflection if I could what what is it that Christians could do in Spokane, Washington in the Pacific Northwest, maybe even in the context of Great Northern University? What is it the Christians can do to pursue Jesus call and prayer for Christian unity?
Yeah. You know, it's interesting as I think about being in a space art institution serves people from a variety of Orthodox faith traditions. So we have students who come from Assemblies of God backgrounds, and students who come from river reformed backgrounds. So variety of students coming from a variety of places and I think one of the things that we've seen in our student body as we've worked through the question of what are the essentials of the Christian faith? What are the tertiary issues? What are the secondary issues? I think we see a lot of unity in, within our student body of an acceptance of belief, these core things about who God is and about His word and about his world. And then there are other pieces that we may hold personally, but we hold them with a degree of humility and with an open hand, believing this is where God has planted us or directed us, but also acknowledging that others may not be in that hold that degree of conviction about that certain doctrine. So I think within our institution, as we've sought to focus in on core doctrinal issues, and really refining for students, what's important, and what's not important, how do you think how do we think well, how do we speak? How do we write well, we've seen a unity within within that, that we hope will also bleed out into other spaces. However, I think also within the spoken community, being part of that institution that is fairly neutral. As a Christian organization, we've also had opportunities to partner and to engage individuals from a variety of faith traditions, which has been exciting to see that work as well. So whether one of our current projects that we're picking back up post COVID is a an original missions conference for youth, designed to help students go and fulfill the Great Commission, and practically do it as youth. So that multi, multi church, multi agency sort of unity around how do we do this together and equipping youth to go out it's been something that's been exciting to see, and to be a part of, and to really host not host, but to be a part of. So we've seen some of that within the community. And a greater degree of unity as well, I one thing that's happened, at least in Washington State dealing with so many regulations has been a need for one another, a need for partnership and for dialogue and need for discussion and need for support. So a need. So we've seen other groups form and stabilize, it's been unifying across groups. And then I also just reflecting again, one of the things and starting greater than that we've seen in being is that we have a broad support base, that an interesting grateful for across the body of Christ, that there's a unity around Christian education that I have just been witness to this been incredible desire for that in the Northwest, and people from different backgrounds and spaces in their faith journey coming in and in praying, supporting, encouraging. That's been another incredible journey that I think we've seen lived out. What does it look like into the future? I hope it strengthened truthfully, as we go forward. I think it will need to be strengthened. Also hope there's a greater degree of I don't know. Yeah, just strengthening which I think will come as people are gathering or meeting or working together. That God believed God gives dreamers to these groups as well as people are dreaming and envisioning future together. There'll be more hope that comes from that and, and hopefully less fracturing Jonathan to I mean, that's that's incredibly hard. i It hurts when bodies and believers struggle. So yeah, I'd love to see more of that. I love that you're actually your project is working in that space. So it's incredible.
Thanks, President has been a gigantic privilege to be speaking with you today. Thanks so much for sharing some of your insights and and this amazing story of what's going on in Great Northern University. Thank you so much for joining us today.
You're welcome, John. Thanks so much. It's been an honor and a privilege. Thanks for the invitation. been grateful to share so I appreciate it. Have a great evening.