everyone for joining. First of all, I think this is probably one of the biggest event. I have it in here for who is joining the very first time. This is like an event, the it's been created initially just for having a sort of sort of portfolio review for people that wants to apply for XR jobs and things like that. And it turned into something more because I kind of invited some friends of mine that are involved in the industry. Like, for example, we started with the CEO of basil. And then came also Michael, Chrome shapes XR, and I think this format seems like everyone likes it a lot. They prefer really having people that are in the industry that are really changing things, and moving things fast, and really building the tools and, and building the foundation for, you know, the future of Pixar. And I like usually to bring, you know, guests at that like in people that I know, I don't even want to call it guests because I had the chance to fortunately, I had the chance to meet Del Mar multiple times. And I also had, you know, I learned so much thanks to him. And he's a person that like, it makes things easier for everyone to make sure you guys don't have like your microphone on. Close it. If you are I think it's you look as I got you. And and so yeah, my experience with deal, Mary's being that sometimes I needed something very specific for unity. And I was just like, looking for that on the internet, if there wasn't such a thing get out or there was but it was very, like minimum amount of material. And the owner was always there, like with this tutorial, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this guy actually did it. So he just didn't like do it. But he also understood like the trends of the industry, like for example, chat GPT came out, and what would you want to do, which adds up to you want to just to make an app in unity, which has a PT, and he did it. So like all of these things, you know, like they save you so much time. And the moment that you look it up and someone else did it, it's great to start from, at least from some sort of template project that can help you to, to move forward with the project that you want to do. But yeah, you can take it you can make changes, and you can start from somewhere, which is great. So without really and also for for whoever is the first time that is entering this space. My name is Alessio, and I work in Magic Leap. I've been working magically for the last two plus years. Very lucky to be in this company. I love it. And they are doing a lot of augmented reality top notch experiences. Now the move to enterprise My past is a little bit in architecture and engineering. So it's kind of a great match for me. I as I said before I created this discord to, you know, kind of manage. A lot of students there was asking me questions about like Unity, because I taught in the past. And then it's turning out to be like almost like a podcast. And I like that, like where it's going. It's really crazy. There are more than 200 people on the server now. And I think it's just going to grow because people are very interested in talented in space. So I'm going to shut down for a second and give space to Bill Murray, which he deserves all really our attention and space for the work that he's doing. And let's start with like a very introduction, introductory question like please, what led you to be here like you have a past in software engineering, what led you pick XR against other technologies, and tell us about like your story, I also know that recently you kind of like permanently left your old job to dedicate 100% on this one. To be like a YouTuber and to be an indication on YouTube, I would say because your your resources are very precious. You also have a Patreon. And you know this is not a promotional video for me but like just feel free to share your work. And I also want to say that we forgot to start this is not connected to Magic Leap at all. I just have the space that I'm not getting paid for. No one is paying me for promotion is not extra for me. I just do it because they love it and I just like like to meet people in the industry and collect them and having them close to me in this space. So it's very important to put for everyone and so yeah, you can start Delmar and tell us little bit more about you.
Yeah, hi, everyone. My name is the owner and I make YouTube videos about XR. So I, I never do live meetings. So I'm a little nervous, you probably laugh right now telling me that the but I never I actually never do this. So this is gonna be, I hope one of the many different live meetings that I that I do. I actually did one with Magic Leap recently. And that was also nerve wracking, but it actually went pretty well. But anyways, a little bit about me, I so I'm originally from South America, I, I came to America with a dream of, you know, maybe having a dream and, and went to college here with a computer science I wanted to do, I wanted to do gaming at the time. And for some reason, I didn't go into gaming and ended up going into computer science and, you know, taking my generals and you know, finishing my computer science degree and then going to a another university called Weaver State University. Because I'm originally I live originally and in Salt Lake City. And anyway, so long story short, I graduated with a computer science degree and got a first job as a software engineer at a local company here in Salt Lake City. And it's interesting how it started, because ever ever since I was a little kid, I wanted to I would have bought a computer. So back when I was like four or six years old, seven years old, my dad in Venezuela, he gave me a computer. And I remember breaking the computer because I wanted to see what the details were what everything in the computer, I wanted to I wanted to know what every little thing in the operating system was, what was the kernel, what were the settings that will change the whole thing. And my dad will always take me to the repair shop and I will like sit next to the guy that was there was doing the operating system repair. And he will basically just, I will watch him like I was watching him doing it. And I broke the computer so many times that at one point I told me that you know, I think I know what to do. And anyway, so ever ever since that point, I've been carrying thing. I've been loving computers, I've been loving it, you know, operating systems and computer programming since I was you know, pretty, pretty young. And when I got my bachelor's in computer science, and I went to him got my first job. One of my, one of my bosses, he's like Doomer, Blackberry is throwing is doing a price. Like if you develop an application for Blackberry, a remember I think it was a Blackberry Playbook. That's how old how old I am. And they were like, Okay, if you develop an app, and you release it on the BlackBerry store, then we're gonna get you a Blackberry. And I'm like, they're gonna give me a Blackberry. And he's like, yeah, they're gonna give you a Blackberry. So I just basically had a very simple app at the time, it was kind of like a movie searching, basically, kind of like a way for you to find out what movies were available on Netflix, what movies were available. And blockbuster like another Netflix that you know, today, the Netflix from from back in the day were used to mail the series and you get them back in. So I built a little app that basically will scrape the data and then build a populated database and people could communicate to that app via web service. And he wasn't even secure. He didn't have you know, any security on the web servers. It was all clear. Thanks. The fact that username and password was all clear text. But anyways, I learned I get that. And then ever since that point, that person and me were just always collaborating. And back in that day, we we launched something called spunk words at the company that I was working on. And I was always similar to what Alessio is doing but with people that were doing software engineering, and we would do apps for iOS apps for Android, we had people do things for like a, you know, like a desktop application or Mac application. And we will demonstrate it and I remember like being one of the first to do like iOS and use native Objective C and in releasing an app and doing many different applications. So I didn't from that point forward is where I start like getting to a point like I used to love going into something and trying to figure it out and play playing with it. But at the time I was also teaching it but now that I wanted to teach it is because people were getting a stocking with different problems. They couldn't get things to work. So I would pull up Xcode project and then we'll just compare do like a gift diff and see what kind of things were different and look at the storyboards and and you know in and basically I'll just project and show people this is how I did it. So it's like a natural study to become something but I wasn't teaching. I wasn't teaching in YouTube back then. And then from from that point forward, I just study, I watch a movie called in the game, you guys probably have watched that movie and Netflix. And I got fascinated with, you know, the ability to build a game from scratch with one person. So there was a guy that made bread and braid, there was a guy that made me super meat boy, so I just got hooked. Like, I'm like, I want to do this. I'm gonna make a game in three. No, no, I think he was like, I'm gonna make it in a year. And I'm gonna release it. And I'm gonna, like, you know, do super, super good. So, so I did that I started, I didn't have kids at the time. So I have two kids right now and a family. I would, I would wait, I would basically go to bed. I'm not kidding, I would go to bed like a 3am 4am. From Monday through Saturday, and then I will get to my day job. And I in the morning, and my boss will say to me, are you okay? Because my eyes were red. And I'm like, yeah, man, he was one of those days. He's like, I know, I know, one of those days, I did that for a constantly for like, two to three years. And I released a very simple platformer game about a stickman kind of kind of like the look of, of limbo. And it had like, parts of all that other games, you know, jump double jump, to remember coding the antigravity? Because if you hear a specific keys keystrokes, basically the guy will just basically upside down, and now you're playing upside down. So So I learned a lot about unity. From from that experience, then I did a puzzle games, then I was working with other companies here in Utah, and doing consulting and about game development. And, and yeah, I just never stopped with, with unity. And then one day I, I posted something, a link on Twitter, about what I was working on, and people liked it. And they're like, oh, we should do a video about him. And I think it was about, I think it was about submitting to the App Store. And I knew the process because I've done it so many times, you know, from where he started prototyping apps and games, and I'm like, Oh, I'm just gonna do it, see how, see how it works. And, and I also did videos of entrepreneurship inside of my car, like recording with my phone, me talking about how, how to be an entrepreneur and how to launch a startup, I had no idea what it was what I was doing. If you go to one of my earlier videos, that it actually taught me a lot because it's, you know, I look at those videos now. And then look at the videos today. And you can kind of you know, get just like with apps, right? You develop something and you do an MVP, and you build it. And then next time you go through the process, you're like, oh, yeah, I know about it. I have a processor. So yeah, that's kind of how it started. And then I started making videos and more videos, how I got into AR. And VR was because one of the applications that I made was, was a was a puzzle. It was a very basic cubes puzzle, you had to move the cube a certain way. And it's called cubics is in the essence theme. And it's very, very basic, but I wanted to put it into AR kit and into AR Because I seen some videos about Apple releasing and when reality I'm like, Whoa, that is freaking awesome. So I remember, like just grabbing the you know, my project. And then at the time there was a unity unity AR key plugin, it was what it was called. And there was also an AR key remote I came in. That came in much later. And it wasn't like these using the XR plugin management that you see today and all that beautiful. Even though people complain about it, it's actually way better than than it was back then. But yeah, so I basically put in the game, the scaling was completely wrong, because now we're dealing with meters and and physical, you know, real world coordinates. And I had a lot of fun and headaches working on. But I loved it. And yeah, it from that point forward. I just started experimenting with that. It started experimenting. I had a few clients that asked me about products that they wanted to show on augmented reality because I go into local conferences and show what I built and that I started doing freelancing with them as well. And yeah, then I did I decided to record everything that I was learning. So I'm like if he if he's helping me can help others. So I would record about you know, when I started learning arrow foundation, I'm like, oh, I want to record every feature. I think this is gonna help and then Magic Leap came along. I was I was fascinating by the well Commercial.
Probably many of you saw, your eyes is just, you know, got wide open. And I'm like, I gotta I gotta check the cell, see if this is real. And anyways, I work with a couple of people on magic league that were in Twitter and I connected and I got the device. And yeah, I fell in love with that experience and started teaching about Magic Leap, I think I was getting about 10 views per video at the time, because Magic Leap. I mean, nobody knew about it. So, but I loved it, I enjoy it. I'm like, I just gotta keep doing this. And did a lot of videos about Magic Leap and prototyping. And I think that just changed the way that I see that I saw technology I didn't really want to make because I was also making web apps, I was making console applications. And I'm like, I don't want to make any of that anymore. I want to work on AR I want to work on VR, I want to I want to work with my space. So so that's how I started and and from that point forward, like I think that's gonna keep going and going just like many of you, because I'm fascinated about these these niche
a lot of stuff that you do in surveys
No, no, I think I think those are all valid points. Alessio. I think just just doing augmented reality and virtual reality, just because the technology is there, it doesn't apply to, to all use cases. But I think he I don't know him in my, in my opinion, like, if somebody the reason why I like to always like to spend 2030 seconds of each video and show the coolness not only for engagement, but also to show them the potential like, like I grew up with, like loving technology like I, I use, I get fascinated by futuristic stuff like I, I love sci fi, I love but I know that you can't really apply those types of things to everything. So it really is really easy to get to a point where you just want to use these just because, you know, because it is there. But at the same time. I think right now, we're in a point where there's a lot of web developers doing JavaScript doing like React and going view. And then we have people doing unity and doing, you know, augmented reality before the a wall. And I think and then we're seeing a lot of a lot of AI and tensor flow and things like that. I think I think at one point, it's gonna get to a point where it's just another solution, right? Like, like web web XR, like that is I think that's the people that are getting into my videos, right now. They may, for me, it's like, okay, I want him to learn unity, because that's, that's what I know. That's their specific use cases for native applications, where they can use those but more like the mainstream, like, I see more, more web XR, right? Like if they if we can show the, the, you know what you can do with XR to Hey, even if it's on a native, we know that some of those technologies with open XR are going to start expanding to the web. So just us being able to show as many people as possible what the potential of just like hand tracking, right? We like not too long ago, you were able to do 10 tracking only on like on native devices or like you you had, you have to have a specific device or ultra lip, or you have to have a key net in order for you to do those things. Now. Now we're seeing that on the web. I see. Somebody posted a video of that on the webinar, my holy shit. That is freaking awesome. So So I think it's just I think it's just showing the potential and can we as we get educated just being able to determine what the right use cases. So I had a I had a, I had a claim that I really wanted to use the Magic Leap, but unfortunately, the Magic Leap didn't work for them for the use case that they needed, which is funny, because I'm on this call with Alessia so it's really no like use this or use that it just always depends on what the use case and I think for me as a goal is I want to teach at all but but as XR is related, so the more information that I can give people and the videos that I'm making right now it's like okay, if you're using AR AR these are all the different options So you have like, what are the advantages and disadvantages of using one? versus the other? I mean, there's some that, like Shibi are the key, they have a bunch of different tools. But do you need all those tools? So I think it always comes down to, you know, the use case and what is it that you need it for? is I need to be offline does it need to have internet connectivity? And so on? So so that's kind of how I see it, it's always looking at, you know, what is it that you're trying to build and not just build just around it just because it's cool?
Reality VR
Yeah, no, I think there's, there's a lot I don't, I personally, I haven't really used a lot lately other than what I'm building. Which is, which is pretty funny. But some of them that I that are really exciting, that I saw that I saw recently was like room scale from, from iOS and how they're using LIDAR technology and to be able to map a, you know, an apartment and, you know, things like that, not too long ago, you really weren't able to do it, you could just do a plane. And that's it. And so that that one that room scale demo, the Apple deal was a was pretty, pretty interesting. Another one that I use a lot on a daily basis is immerse, immerse VR. I, I, I see the future of people working on on VR, probably not now, especially how tired my hair gets after a few hours of usage, but, but that's one that I that I really enjoy using a, a tried to set up a little station, where I am coding on it for at least two to three hours, you know, every every other day, and I really enjoy I think that's a i, I want to say that at some point in time, that's how we're going to work but at the same time, I'm still I still not 100% sure that we're gonna get rid of monitors, at least at least not in the foreseeable, you know, in the near future. But it is a cool technology though. And it's really powerful for multitasking. Like if I want to add more monitors and things like that, even though I'm even though it's funny, because I find when you go minimal when you go one monitor you get more things done. It's weird like if you if you think about like your head rotating a constantly to look at another monitor and then rotating back. A lot of people want to like oh, yeah, oh, my monitors, all across and 10 that I'm finding like, you know, what I sometimes I get more done when I just focusing on one area. So that's, that's has been my experience. See another app that I also, eye tracking has been really fascinating to me. That's another really good, good, good topic. Specifically with the I try with HoloLens when it first came out and you had to do the whole calibration thing. And then with the Ameriquest Pro was really pretty crazy how it just didn't require much calibration. And universal is what I try from a device that was developed, you know, years back. And so yeah, so like, eye tracking with like, user interfaces, I think it's applications that take advantage of that I think I saw a demo from somebody I don't know if it was a prototype or it was a PlayStation demo somebody throwing a ball and they were using a tracking to kind of aim to into a target there was there was one cool idea Another one was somebody was like blurring the background based on if you were focusing on the on you know on the on the background and on the back area versus the foreground they basically will use kind of like a blur on the back so kind of how your eyes work in real life I thought that was that was also pretty fascinating. So yeah, I don't I don't have a specific other than those that came to mind
oh yeah
yeah
Yeah, I mean, I love AI. But I love AI in the, in the sense that I love what he creates, like I love how we can use it. So So when Chad GPT came out and people were talking about on Twitter, I just didn't have I didn't have I didn't have any interest. Like, I'm like, Yeah, this is another Chatbot. That's not new. And then I started using a pro, like many of you, and you're like, Oh, crap, this thing is alive. It has its Terminator. And then I'm like, Oh, what if I? What if I could use it with a, you know, unity? And? And yeah, so I, I tried, I started experimenting with it and see what it would do. And so a couple of people generating code from and I think I saw, my gosh, I forgot his name. But all all. I saw, I saw a tweet from from a guy that is very talented. And I need to find that in here. Because if now it's going to, it's going to buy me because he needs to be mentioned. Let's see if I can find them in here pretty quick. So his name is Oh my gosh. If I can find ya. Now, his name is Bart. And he did he has okay, you know who I'm talking about? Yeah. So bar created, you guys probably saw an augmented reality application that you you speak, you give it a prompt. And then that prompts. Basically, it's captures a voice, it gets the transcript out of it. And then it generates code. And basically, he has a function in there, I talked to him over the hour, a phone call, basically gets the closest plane and based on the closest playing in place, the sound like I want to do something like that in unity, because I noticed he did it in with Xcode. And he shared his code. And I'm like, Oh, this is I didn't look at the code. I don't mean I didn't look at your code. I know what he's doing. But I didn't look at your code. So I tried to do something similar. And that's why I started the but I was so naive at the time, because I didn't know that there was there was a there was a there was an API for a chat. Well, chat. GPT doesn't have an API. But there there are some open AI alternatives. GPT three, I think it's called or there's another flavor of it that is available that you can call. So I ended up going the route where Okay, I just kind of use this Python wrapper that opens up a browser is tracks the data, and then gets me the data. And then I get the code, I parse it. And that's why I did on on the on the latest charge with the variances. I wanted to build something that I could, you know, at some point swap out once the open AI, you know, API comes out. And the idea was, you know, I want to be able to explain what I want. And I want to be able to cream, you know, an object, that's what I would tell it to do. And so that's kind of that's kind of the idea about, you know, using GPT. And then Dali was also a one that I was super interested in. And obviously I saw a me journey, which is incredible what you can create. It's really fascinating. But anyways, I did, I did release Dali, to video to a just right before this call. So if you guys want to check it out, I'm not trying to market it. But I think it was pretty cool. It's like I wanted to do I wanted to do a blank a blank canvas of a museum. So basically, you jump you walk into a blank canvas and it's a museum with with frames on the walls with everything is why. And then when you go in, you start saying you put the Raycast you start saying you know with voice you tell it okay, I won, you know wonderful or to be a title, a colorful title, I want these framed to be a Picasso painting. And then at the end he's like, Okay, this is a representation of your own museum. So so that was pretty fun to to work in. And if you guys want to check it out, check out the description. There's a link in there to the C sharp i c AR house. So you probably know what I'm talking about. Maybe you already know the plugin that I'm mentioning, because the guy has worked with Lucas and I talked to him about the plugin and yeah, so that was that was a good good experience as well. And I also done a lot of things with ml agency in Unity. I think that's one that I before all these crazy Sapir. Your AI stuff came out. I was using ml agents, which I was training with reinforcement learning. So it was also a fun experience. Yeah, that's one on chat AR kit. Oh, yeah. That's the demo from BART. Yep. So yeah, I think I think AI, it's, when I think about VR, I'm very niche, right? Like, I want to focus on AR, I want to focus on VR, also the pass through, but I see a huge benefit from Ai. Like if a multiple clients, in fact, I had a client who either he is building an augmented reality application, he needed an AI to detect an actual trunk, like a pile of different trunks, or logs, I think, is what they call them in English. And he needed to determine the, basically the radios and measurements. So he's using TensorFlow with AI to do that, so. So I think, like, if you are getting into AR and VR, and mixed reality, getting familiar with AI, and some of these components will be will be a huge win, because it's like, you can only have you only have these all these tools, but if you don't have AI, you're like, kind of like missing out. Even though it's not for every use case, I think it's always good to, to have it and that's why I see I'm incorporating that into a channel on anything moving forward, it's going to what was that? Oh.
That's, that's really all and it's basically just a yeah, just make sure that you're incorporating I, I geek out with it, I think it's I have a passion for like, things that I can understand. I think AI is one of those things I can't understand. It's really weird how it works. Even though people tell you how it works. I don't I don't understand that way. I understand reinforcement learning, but like when he gets to, like chat GPT and, and some of those algorithms I say guys use it's just fascinating to me. And, and that's, I think that's the future, like, you know, using more things like that, in the near future, I'm hoping to see, you know, open AI and charge up the API is coming out, you know, I haven't done anything with me and journey. So I don't know if there's anything available there that we can use or so. So that's, that's an area in nerf is also another area that I'm super fascinated with. And I also play around with it with Luma AI. Again, that's another thing that is fascinating. And it's, that's that's a saw that company going from so I met with that person with the honor I think it was, I think it was about seven months ago. And he has this really cool guy jumping on a phone call. He's been working on this. And you know, six months after that he released the app and that thing blew up like people in the in the good. The good thing about that is like thinking about MVP, regular, we all we all need to embrace that kind of theme because heat moves so fast, like his team moves so fast, bringing in features and listening to feedback from and that's how I make the videos like videos from the community. Like the videos that I make is from people like you telling me they don't know how do I do this? And I'm like, Oh, that's a video idea. Because if you need that information, somebody else is going to need it
Hey, Hey Taylor, I'm real quick. You're helped me out with like a lot of tight binds. I'm just a designer, but there's literally nothing out there. And so thank you for all your content. So appreciate it. So I'm going to ask you a couple of cliche but yet like like billion dollar questions here Okay, are you ready?
Go for it, man.
Okay, here we go. So how long it's go the most cliche How long do you think until XR goes like mainstream? And like and you know, putting on that those future goggles? It's really hard to tell you know, are we in a valley How long would this valley last when we come back up? When will it go mainstream? And fundamentally, like what vehicle of xr or like any kind of like our area do you think will pop off before the rest?
Yeah, no, that's a that's a million the billion dollar question right? Um, yeah, right. Yeah, I don't I don't know that I have like solid answer, but I can tell you what I what I see from hearing and from usage. I mean, when when you know comparing like when the first Oculus release versus, you know, then we have Oculus two. And then now we're hearing you know, close three coming now. And he has, you know that cameras and it's getting lighter, lighter in weight. And that's happening, you know, later Later these year. And I use Magic Leap two quite a bit. And it's a it's a heavy, light, heavy device. I mean, I'm thinking about, you're saying, okay, glasses, right, you're wearing glasses. And anybody, the regular personal mainstream can use those glasses, and do maybe gestures, interactions with head tracking and things like that. That's, I don't know, I gonna say from, I think we're at least five years out to him. And you can call me, I might be a little pessimists. But I don't know that we're anywhere close to getting to a point. It just just because of all the power that you wouldn't need on a device, that light. And so I saw, I think today, there was something released or look pretty cool. There was a big screen glasses or something like that they came out and alive, but they're still need a really powerful computer, behind the scenes. So So yeah, she launched Yeah, I think I think we're still five years out to something like that mainstream, where my mom will say, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna grab, just like that watch, right? Like these, watch that what I watch, I can't leave my house without my watch. Because of so many things that I use for my mom is that way she grabs her watch. And she takes it everywhere, because you know, to check certain things or messages. So I think once unless we get. So for instance, like magically, they have they had an amazing device, but the ecosystem was the problem, right? Like, no, many developers in the ecosystem join. So So you have to be you have to have a really big ecosystem of people. And you have to have people that are willing to migrate easy migration of apps and experiences to that ecosystem. And unfortunately, like you don't, some people don't want to hear but Apple has that ecosystem. And by amphetamines, because I haven't seen anything from them. I only All I hear is remorse and Coda they found on their binaries. You know, pointing to xr, which is I guess it's a good thing for me. But yeah, I think we're, we're far from from that point, that not to say that they won't release anything in the next three years. But I don't think it will be like mainstream, I think I think it's gonna be high price 3000 to $3,500, at least on one of those AR glasses. That's That's what I think.
And I mean, does that mean, you think the proper vehicle to mass consumer adoption is AR? Or do you think VR could actually capture a broad enough audience in the next like, few years?
I don't know. And I don't think I don't think it'll be I think it'll just be a it's there was, there was a discussion about this to a to the President, I think it was hdc. And he was talking to look as about a mixed reality. And I think it's gonna be mixed reality, though. I think just, I'm just looking at the quest Broadway and how cool it is to be able to look and pass through and, you know, I love playing with the physical world, like being able to look at objects that I put next to me, you know, where like, VR, it's like, it could be a vehicle like gaming and things like that. I see VR, but I think for practicality, from the day to day person, I, I feel like makes reality it's what's going to get us to the point where, you know, you jump in your car and you have these glasses, I give you additional information or you go to I don't know, you're going to a park and you're looking at a design and the sign allows you enables you to know which roads to take so you don't get lost. I don't know you there's so many use cases that I see happening, that are non gaming, but again, the game gamification will be built into some of those just like Pokemon there with I mean, how many people have started playing Pokemon? Because it was fun, right? Like it was getting people outside and I think I think you know, when you do something like that with with AR with with mixed reality, I think that's when we're going to start seeing more people into the medium.
So like, would you consider basically VR like the 19, mid 1990s PC where people are messing around with it, that attack you know, attracts a specific niche. And then like, AR is more like the mobile phone where people see the practicality and adoption of it. or like, do you think just simple? Like, is it a mixture of both? Or do you think that VR will always be too niche to actually adopt? You know, broad adoption?
I think it'll be I think, I don't know, I feel like it'll always be different. Like, I feel like, I feel like today, if I want to play a game on Playstation, I just pull in my playstation and I play a game. And if I want to jump into VR, I use a VR headset. Yeah, it's I think, I think there'll be different. I think it'll be up to the user to, you know, to a sigh where, and then we'll have the option to the above with, you know, mixed reality devices. They might, they might emerge at some point, just like we're seeing with the quest, bro. So, yeah, yeah, that's, I think, I think you have to have a need a use case for each. Elisa is how I see her, like, maybe I don't want to use me out. Or maybe that's not really what I need this for. Why Why not use all the power of maybe maybe that capability, I don't want it. And that it's, you know, maybe less electronics and less things that we need to put on this device, versus just a pure use case device that's going to facilitate, you know, a pass through experience. So I think I don't know, I think time I think time will tell I think users will tell us. And and you know, as we evolve, we'll start learning how we get there. Well, thanks. You're welcome. Yeah, that's a great questions.
If anyone else want to jump in, please feel free to. I see a lot of familiar faces here.
Thank you. Yeah. I have a question for them, or is that I got really inspired by like, what the chat GPT and Unity project that you did. And like how you were able to, like, instantiate the model and be able at script to it from from there. The question I have is like you were doing that in runtime? Is it any way for you to do that in editor editor? Because that would like change the game for like a lot of designers wanting to get into Unity for prototyping? Like, to at least that's why
No, no, that's a great question. Yeah. So. So as I think, as an editor, there's a guy that sent me his work, there's a Unity Asset that somebody's working on, I can send that to Elijah, and he can share it. And this person is building something like what you're what you're asking about is, let's just have a prompt, and I generate code, which I mean, technically, you could use what I what I built for that. Because you're you're you're basically passing a prompt with variable replacements, and, and charge up to gets it, you get it back. And then I'm running that in runtime. But you could, I mean, you could change that and tweak it to download a CSV file, just rename it to SES. And you could even like, do visual scripting, like, for more for a designer. And I haven't looked into that, but I guess that could be a good project idea is, you know, you tell it what type of things you want. And that creates a behavior kind of like playmaker, and that builds the behavior that you want. And maybe you just add the additional connections. But But yeah, I think I think it's possible, definitely, there was something outside of like, the scope of what I wanted to build, it was more like, oh, I want to I want to run code in runtime, because it's cool. There was kind of like a challenge is like, Oh, how do I embed a you know, the Rosslyn compiler and, and in unity, and and, and run code, and definitely not something that I recommend to do for production? Because that could be that could be very dangerous. But yeah, they all share with you an idea, or an asset that somebody is working on. And maybe take a look at that. I think that will help.
Yeah, so anyone else here
thank you. That is pretty cool. I attend a lot of my colleagues this, including kind of professional ones.
How are you doing? Can you tell us a little bit about it?
Oh, I mean, nothing. Like nothing too crazy. I'm just in VR chat, right with my avatar and you know, VR chat you can put in you can make a camera in the world. And then I just have that, you know, going into OBS as a virtual camera. So pop that in discord as a webcam. Pretty much.
It's pretty, pretty cool. Yeah, that's pretty cool. So is that a world that
you're in your background and stuff like that? Can you like do pass like back? Right? Can you change the background to what you want in OBS or what?
I mean? I mean, maybe. So, like, literally, so I'm just in VR chat, really with a camera. So I mean, like, you know, I can move, like, okay, so like, I can move this around. I'm just in, like a world right now. Right? So if I go to a different world, then I'll be in a different place. And all that. So
interesting. This will track your expression, do you have like, it's like, enough having like, a phone camera for doing that? Or do you have a specific one?
Um, well, about that, like, so. I'm not actually using any tracking right now. I mean, so right now, I literally have a VR headset on my face right now. And I don't have I don't have eye tracking or face tracking. It's all just, it's all just, you know, that's cool. Right? I mean, you know, so if you're familiar with VR chat, the way expressions usually work here is that there's, there's the idea is that well, you use gestures, right? Like with your like, with your hands. And if you get good at them, it becomes kind of second nature almost, to where you can, you know, kind of convey some basic expressions and stuff. Though I am looking forward to actual eye and face tracking, becoming a widespread thing and headsets. I am looking forward to that that's going to be super cool. But it is, I just think it's really cool what people can pull off today, despite the technology, being frankly, pretty, I mean, it's awesome. But also compared to like, what's going to come? You know, it's just so limited, in a way. So some thoughts. They're
super cool. I think you've done a great job.
Thank you. Thank you.
Yeah, super cool. I agree. Amazing. Well, I mean, this was a good price. Thanks for joining. I'm, I'm delighted to see the staff here. It's so cool. Yeah, I think I've never tried to go to like, I always just use VR chat as and never put a camera inside. I actually didn't know would be interesting to know how to do that.
Oh, well. I mean, it's pretty simple. There's actually like, so you can spawn a camera that you can use to just take pictures. And there's an option where you can set it to, like as a stream camera. So then, like whatever your your camera sees, will be outputted to the window that you can record with the software like OBS. Um, but yeah, yeah, I'm glad to be here. I just, I just saw this was happening. So I dropped in, like from Twitter. Because it seemed pretty cool. Thanks for hosting.
Thank you. That's awesome. Yeah, that's learning something new today.
Yeah, I actually, I actually spend a fair amount of time in VR chat, organizing, some I organized some meetups that are focused on, I kind of organize a community where focus on science and technology, so you get a lot of people doing stuff and like, giving presentations or whatnot. And it's a lot of fun. But lately, I've been wanting to get more into the kind of development side of things. Because, you know, I just think, like, where this is going, it's just going to be keep getting better and better and more and more ubiquitous. And I want to make stuff. So that's why I'm here. I want to start learning more about the development side. Because I'm a noob with that.
Amazing. Also your voice matches your characters so much. Only feel myself or No, I don't know. I could. I could watch definitely anonymous that you look like that. And you talk that way. I'm like, I'm so I'm so yeah,
I yeah, I yeah, I really liked this. This avatar. It's it's a public one that I that I've customized some, but yeah, I really do. Like, you know, it's kind of expressiveness. It kind of matches how I think it matches my personality fairly well.
I think it's like very engaging, like, stop looking at your avatar. Yeah. Like everything goes like your ears are moving, your hair is moving, like it's engaging.
This is All right, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Easy. Good surprise. Yeah, I think we should do an episode about this stuff. I really I'm really locked on some stuff on that. And it's so wonderful though. Yeah, please.
what's so wonderful about like the and something about like the XR community in general is that everybody like learns and shares with each other. So even as half as you're interested in development, and as some of us who are developers, or maybe less experienced in what VR chat is capable of, we still like, have these awesome little moments of technology that we share with each other. And like, Oh, I didn't know you could pull that off. It's like, I didn't know that I could represent myself as an avatar, I could fly to fly a drone. And augmented reality, like this is like, yeah, that's something that's great about like the community here. And then also like, Thanks, everybody for joining and having some really good pieces. I know, it's we're at the hour, I don't want to push us over, I had a couple other things that I was interested to add along, like the thought of extra monitors when AR may catch on and, and I can go kind of rapid fire between them. But something that will lead to like, another term for XR might be considered like spatial computing with the idea of like computing happens inside of a 2d box. And really like these headsets give us the power to break that out of the magic box, and you can put it where you need it. And where that leads into is the power of contextual computing, which is just as we've even been talking about chat. GPT is like no longer am I like going through the internet and searching for information, but it has context above it. And that's incredibly important. And so talk about reaching a critical mass where people get on board with this is the thing that I'm going to use, like instead of me pulling my phone out of my pocket, I'm gonna use my headset is because it can understand the context of the space you're in, or even the workload that you need to perform on. So just as even it was brought up in the talk of like, certain workflows require more screens and other requires less, the real power of xr is that you have the flexibility to switch between them. I don't need if I need a bunch of photos for doing photo editing, I can conjure a bunch of photos, if I need one screen to focus on code, that's all I need. Or maybe now I want to pull up one of Dilbert tutorials because I forgot what I was doing. Bam, another screen appears. And it's just easy for me. When it reaches that point, it'll be like a no brainer. Obviously, we have to hit the same intersections with form factor price point for like the hardware. But I'm like, Who knows when that will happen. Also, like in terms of even like predicting the future? I know, it's like it used to be an interview question of like, where do you see yourself in five years. But a great thought exercise I like to do is, if you went back one year, and you tried to imagine where we are today with technology, even how much we like things have changed since like chat came out recently. Do you think you could have guessed it accurately? No. So then when we try to think forward one, like six months, one year, five years, it's like, how accurate can we be all of a sudden, something might burst into the scene like I didn't even know until we were talking about it. That big screen just launched a new headset today. Like this little little like announcements that come out can really change the trajectory of everything. And I'm at the point where I've given up on predicting the future, I just try to learn it as quick as I can to stay on top of this ever changing landscape. But so it's just kind of a rapid fire between some great stuff. It's great to hear you talk and good to see you Delmar and thank you, everybody for for joining in. I'm not the host, but it's it's good to see you.
Likewise.
For anybody that doesn't know me, it's nice to meet you. I'm Ian. I'm the I'm the director for reality hack. And also a few other XR industry stuff. Like AR house and other sorts.
Yeah, we yeah, we have like the cool thing about this space and I'm very happy that we have people that are actually you know, working in the space like that and doing things that like I saw that also, you know, basals team join for a second this call and I'm super happy to see it. You know, it's creating a community around here that people are kind of making a change and bringing like some very, very important knowledge. And yeah, if you want to stay up to date with the with the latest strand I think the Elmers channel is definitely you know, a must have and I don't know I think you know I timed this I don't have like a precise time to end up this call. I think I'm free for the next half an hour but up to you, Dilma if you want to go on a little bit more. But you know, we are up to one hour if you if you feel like you're you know, he will tell you I would understand if you have things to do. It's a little late for you right like it's nine for you there
right now. 911 No, yeah, I'm good. Maybe Maybe let's do two months. And then yeah, we can and then we can wrap it up. I'm having a blast. I think it's it's, it's fascinating when you meet with people that are doing things that you're doing, I don't really like I work here in these office and in these walls and then in XR and then when I go is a basement by the way when I go up, up, it's, you know, my family and this really weird gear from the Wendy's to like, Okay, this is my normal life. But ya know, funny, so if anybody has like any, any other questions more than happy to more more than happy to stay a little bit longer
Can I up? I have one question I really want to ask like, not only Delmer, but also Ian and like Marquez. LSU. And all of you who are in this space, because I've only been in here for like a year. So like, I'm curious to hear from everyone. Because of what in and demo are saying of like, XR, VR AR AI nerves, machine learning all of this, like I've been struggling because I came into the space with like, VR and then as it starts to like, dawn on me, like, there's so much more stuff. And I'm like, at this point, I'm so lost. I mean, where should I specialize? What should I focus on? I don't know what anymore like? And I just want to hear from all of you guys. What is your definition of xr or like what? What is your definition of the passion with the How would you categorize all of these different topics in your head? Or like what? What title would you give yourself? If there was such a title in existence? Please like, I really want to know that from like all of you guys and your perspective on it. Because it seems like all like there is a general natural tendency to lump all of this into one. It's just no one have said what that is, like people only say XR is VR AR But like we're talking about AI, we're talking about nerves. We're talking about machine learning TensorFlow, like all these two, GBT generated AI is like, so much like, what? What is that thing to you guys? Like, what would you call it? If you had, if you can want to give a name for it? Yeah.
I can, I can be changed a little bit. So it can get overwhelming, right? But you gotta you gotta start somewhere. So I would, I wouldn't try to get everything at once. I think we all start with something basic. So if you if you like VR, and that's, that's, you know, that's where you decide it. I would I would focus on if you're passionate about it, I think that's where it comes down to, it's obviously you gotta pay the bills. So you got to look at the market, see what things are coming now, who is going where who is hiring, I mean, at the end of the day, if you want to a job, you want to look at the market, right? And then there's your passion, there's money. And then there's your your passion, which is going to drive. And if you drive, you can keep making money. And then there's all these noise of people doing AI people doing all these really cool stuff, right? But But and then you started with like, the basics. So I started with a HelloWorld Oh, I print HelloWorld it's amazing, it's beautiful. But then there's like all these people doing these complicated stuff. Like it really is really easy to go into Twitter or social media and look at what all these people are doing. And then just getting motivated because it looks to advance on that doesn't look like what you signed up for you want to do it, but it just looks too complicated. So I would always like just focus on like, if you're passionate about VR, focus on VR, learn as much as you can vertically about VR. And then as you as you extend your knowledge about that, maybe build a game, a prototype, something that you can show in a portfolio, something that you're passionate about and then you start horizontally we time which is that's kind of how I did it is like with time I started adding other technologies and then now it's like I'm different than probably em probably alasia is like they can LS is more specialized but that's kind of how I see it it's like you get good at something first and then you start adding in a little bit at a time
Yeah, and I like you can know like I think Lucas also the good thing yeah, definitely with
audio there's um thankfully with the with this technology that we have to be able to create stuff that has never been able to be made before which is super exciting. And it can also be like super overwhelming but really intimidating. I know like some everybody like even With all the different things that I'm working on, I often still feel like behind because there's so much to learn. And I know that that can be a common feeling amongst other people have this kind of anxiety of like, Oh, what do I do? Where do I go next? A lot of it, like I said, it's also like following your, your passion of like, when actually, if you have something that you feel really strongly about building, you're probably the only person that can can make that and everybody's kind of making their own thing. But if you have the clear vision of something you want to build, it's, it's kind of on you to be able to like step up and put the time into work towards that. Part of that is also finding avenues to do that. So like Lucas, like going through XR bootcamp, and also like following. There's lots of great free information available online thanks to people like filmer, that it's, it's actually something that's more approachable. Whereas like, there's a lot of other industries where the information you need to succeed is behind a massive pay wall. If you like wanting to become a lawyer, you gotta go like through lawyer school and everything that's involved. Like with XR, people just care that you can get the work done, you know, how to build it, if you can show that you can build people will hire you. So yeah, there's a mixture of being able to follow passion and get worked on, thankfully, because even if we may feel behind anybody that's on this call, we are all early to the game, like it's only going to continue to go up from here. So it's a great time to just be paying attention, keep your head up as like, Everything keeps shifting. And even like we look at I mean, heck, I like mentor for XR bootcamp and stuff. Like I went to chat one day, and I was like, hey, write me a unity script that does this. And it basically did my job for me it gave gave a script and it explained what it did. And I was like, Well, I don't need me anymore. Like I'm, I'm needed, but it's not true. Like it will, we'll learn how to use this technology to empower us to do more than we could have before. It's kind of like, like, think of like tech curves of like, your pocket your cell phone is more power than what they used to like launch a satellite. Back in the 60s. Like it's, we're only gonna be like, supercharged in how quickly we can go. So definitely, like, lean into your passions to stay motivated with it, keep getting hands on and building. There's tons of resources, thanks to the community that you can keep going. And then also, like lean on the community, like I'm huge into community events. That's why I run reality hack. That's why I do boot camps. That's why I'm at AIR HOUSE. That's why I'm on this call is like the you don't have to do it alone. Again, we all share great resources and grow together. So Oh, and for a title. I've adopted as a handle. And as my favorite is I just go by XR nerd. Just be a nerd about this stuff, like embrace it just be like yeah, like I anything that has to do with the technology, I want to learn more about it and understand how it works actually have a resource that I was going to hit Ctrl V on if anybody is interested in diving deeper into like some cute computer science stuff. I started computer science at school, but it wasn't quite as in depth of engineering as what they might teach you at MIT. computer file has some wonderful series covering everything from internet security to recent topics like chat, GPT, and stable diffusion that break it down, out of like these very heavy computer science concepts into something that is approachable and easy to understand. So if you want to start to get a deeper understanding, it's a great place to start just another resource. Yeah.
That is why I made these things happen, because people no more. See, like, you get so much out of this community and you learn new things every time. I mean, it was very casual and incidental here to learn a lot more about what I was expecting, you know, this was an interview is an interview to Delamere. But it's I love the fact that, you know, we discovered so many other things and, and kind of informs us and it's good. It's good to be like on top of this stuff every time just like have like foot into the door to any new exploration and the hackathon. For me. It's probably one of the best event to be part of, not to sponsor eyes, anything. But like that was what got me started. Maybe like, let's say it was a confirmation for me when I saw it. I was like, dang, like, so there are actually people out there is all an ecosystem. And this year, MIT reality hackathon. I mean, that was huge, was a huge hackathon. So the scale of this is getting way bigger than it was and it just like a sign that things are getting more specialized, they're getting more complex. And it's like, you know, like you say, you're an engineer, like you can be a cybersecurity engineer. You can be a web engineer, like it's, you look as like the you can really say like, you know, you don't know, but the good thing is like every time I feel like being involved in this project gives you the opportunity to start something from scratch and pick it up very quickly. And you shouldn't feel like oh my gosh, like, where do I start like there, you just need to start and and then like you you become specialized in a new place, then sometimes comes down to deadline, you say like, how realistically, can I achieve something like that in this amount of time? How many people do I have available? I mean, that's all about you know, that's all the strategy that goes into companies is like, how many engineers do we need to do this product in this amount of time for these kinds of cost? And, you know, all of that is like strategy. So it's, and it's cool game development, I feel like it's, it's a cool start, because gives you the opportunity to do massive projects alone. And they become complex, they become very, very complex in time, and you can just have full understanding of an application, I think, Unity gave me the opportunity to meet you have like a very high level understanding of how, you know, like a project works, but that not necessarily is how every project is made. But if I kind of subdivide all of the folders in a certain way, because they want to do something like here, like every project, has utilities have a project has core script, every project has, like third parties call to API's that you're importing, like all of that is always like something that remains. Yeah, please. Any other question for dealmaker? We have we have it for some other minutes, I think probably one of the last. Otherwise, I'm gonna go and ask him something.
I can say one other piece on that specialization, I actually forgot to say, which is with with chat. It's, it's, well, it threatens kind of a disruption to the rest of like the existing tech industry, even as like you may have seen Google is a little scared right now, because it could change the way that search works, which they've had, they've owned search for quite a long time. And it just, I think it's actually really exciting, because it shows that there's always room to innovate, even as you've had these huge counter cornerstones of these big industry players that nothing's anybody can innovate. Even though the tech layoffs that happened recently, were unfortunate. But actually, I think that just means that there's going to be a lot of new startups and a lot of new technology coming out in this next year, which is like, it's going to be a really exciting time. Hopefully, everybody's okay. Like regarding their employment and everything. But in regards to specialty, it also threatens to kind of disrupt, like education as it's stood for a really long time. In regards to specializing, I'd actually argue against specializing too hard in one different domain chat gives you the ability to become a jack of all trades, if there's something you don't know about, you now have a personal assistant, a trainer that's knowledgeable about like, all the stuff that's been uploaded online, sometimes they're wrong. But you know, people are wrong sometimes too. And you can just work with it to learn more and more. And also get information from different sources talk to different people. But it really is going to be kind of the rise of the generalist, the person that can adapt quickly to the changes that go on in the industry that can learn new things as they come out, that is going to be the most successful people. So I
always I always hear people say no, why that's, that's cheating. Why are you using chat? And no, that's I'm like, No, that's like, it's a superpower is a superpower that our generation is getting, if you treat it in a way that it's like, I mean, for painters, and that's a completely different discussion. And when Dali and annoying pains and how, you know, there's discussions and arguments about that, I, with coding, I see a more like a superb, like a Stack Overflow. To me, it's like, personally, I don't use it anymore. Because I can go into chat. And like you said he has context awareness. He know I can keep asking him questions that are relevant to the, you know, the questions that I already asked. And and it's not always right. But when I Google stuff, if I'm not a developer for a long time, because googling is expertise, in the first few years of Googling, as a developer, you're not going to find the answer. And if you find that is not going to compile or you're going to do the wrong thing, but then you'll learn so so now we charge GPD it's the same way you still need to be educated. You still need to know coding you still need to know a structure but it's it's context aware which which I think to me it's it's a bigger benefit and it's a superpower in a job replacement.
Yeah, I think this this kind of positive notes that should be like kind of like framing the discussion and In terms of maybe this is the very, very last questions and, and also on this positive notes, connecting it a little bit with what you just said, I found chargeability to be very helpful to solve issues that you cannot get there, but not really like sometimes like you are debugging and you're doing things that are a little bit out of you're a little bit out of your feel like you can know, like, know everything, it's impossible, we're not machines, so like you use a machine to do it, and you you kind of give him your prompt, you give it your specific use case, and you try to just formulate prompts that can solve issues that you might just solving one day instead of a week. And that to me like is, for me, it's a new way to educate to like, it's like a very new education model. There is not I mean, it doesn't take a long time to understand that, like, there is going to be like customized models on our education, and they're just going to be associated to us. And it's going to be so, so convenient that you know, just think about like a high school student that goes from fourth grade to the last one, and it just has this assistant that constantly is being fed information like this, this is gonna become your best friend, like, you know, this is gonna be your best friend forever. Like, he knows you very well more than anyone else, because he's like working with you constantly in every task that you do. Like, think about something like that, how precious could be known? And how do you see the education moving in this direction, since you are like one of the most, in my opinion, Representative figure of education and xr now. So how do you see this going, for example, in the next, like, you know, four to five years, like are we going to see are we going to see charge up to embedded in your your content, like based on for example, let's say your school now, you know, scales up, and you have to cover way more than you were covering before and you have so much material that you're providing? How if you have the power to do that, what would you do?
Now I am using it today for my content. So I am using chat GPT to write my YouTube titles I'm using chargeability to write a description. I'm using chargeability to write emails. So So I mean, we, you know, somebody asks, there's so many things that we can do to learn, right? So I think that's it's an area that I like to optimize is in all of us over will always be see there's so much going on, there's emails that we get, there's technology that we want to learn. So that's how I see it. Like if I'm gonna spend time, you know, writing a title or a description, or like writing a script like I, I, when I did the GPT series, I didn't know how to import stuff from Sketchfab. And the documentation was really wasn't all good. And I'm like, okay, and it's gonna change everything you write all the code to, to basically there's like multiple steps, multiple HTTP calls that you have to call and things that are really not very, like specific to xr. So I'm like, I'm just gonna use Cheju PT. It builds the skeleton, you bring it in. So, so yeah, I think I think I see us using the and can fascinating way what you said Alessio about like, having a helper. I didn't, I didn't think about it that way. But it is becoming that way like having, you know, like these, these computers that is intelligent, that is going to, you know, it's going to help us through. So for example, like one of my one of my kids is six years old and and he knows way more than I think a 10 year old and in a lot of it is because of the technology that he's using the stuff that he's getting exposed to. So imagine like having him a star, you know, asking questions to something like that, that can educate him like I don't need to get into a special school like a special person to come in. He has these person or it could be a sheet right? Like we it's it's these computer that can that is helping is helping me out so I think that's I don't see a stopping I think I see I see that accelerating like like a like you guys said it's I didn't even think this was possible. Like if you asked me a year ago about having something respond in a way that it really points to you and it's context aware. Like it's it's crazy. So, so yeah, and I think as a as a, you know, a general note in a try to test try to prototype as much as you can. Like, don't be afraid of technology like I love experiment as much as you can. If you want to get a job in the industry I tried to build a portfolio, I mean, join the Air house. I mean, that's a great initiative. They've been growing and they do an amazing job, MIT, it's great. Build your GitHub repo, even if it's just uploading your project or creating a template, something that you think could help other people. That's how I started, I think a lot of us have done it that way. So that's one way you can say, because I do interviews with, I've worked with other companies, and I do interviews. And that's the first thing that I look at, like I look at, okay, I want to see what you don't like, can you show me where you don't, a lot of people don't have anything to show. So it's really hard for me to, to trust somebody unless I can see it. So it's a lot easier to interview somebody when you know that they're building things, and they can share it. So that's something that I would recommend, you know, anybody that is just starting build something, build a prototype, keep it active, do multiple things, and something that you can, you know, you can show either to an interviewer either for freelancing even for your own, you know, salary and say, oh, yeah, I complete something, I got it out. And now I'm gonna do the next thing. I think I think all of us have some of that, you know, so that's honestly, I want to say thank you, everyone, everyone for you know, for joining, I appreciate it. If you want to learn more about me, I there's a YouTube channel posted in here. And also, if you want to check out Twitter, I also tweet a lot like crazy about XR. I love these mediums. So it was a pleasure.
Yeah, it's amazing. I'm very, very impressed by everything that we guys came up with here. And really, thanks so much the owner for for staying with us so long, you are a star without any doubt, you know, like you're doing so much for everyone. You're very much like a pioneer of education and enabling others to, to do well, like I can't wait to the point that we arrived to, you know, we were just like, trying to guess what AI could be in the future, but is really that like, it's just empowering everyone to do things that maybe on their own, they are wishing, you know, they wish to do but they maybe need that kind of little push to do or just like because you know from from positivity comes also other positivity like that, the fact that you can achieve one thing then let you achieve another thing and can really change the route of, of your life events. So it's overall great, and the fact that this stuff is accessible. It's incredible. Like it's a great time to be alive. We're lucky in Yeah, if you guys want to join. This is this is happening every two weeks, I tried to really bring people that have like, you know, great impact on the profession. I'm trying to ask also some of my colleagues sometimes trying to ask also someone from abroad. There is very, very cool stuff around that I've seen and maybe you know, for some reason for another ones, they're not part of, you know, some sort of group or meats or meetings and they don't do not show the stuff so please feel free to recommend anyone else so and yeah, thanks again. vielmehr. And everyone have a great night. And see you next time.
