saddlebag upgrade or if they fail fast they're just here to take your home if you got your Trapper cave around grande this agent Jamshed David this is a
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like this. This is almost like well, this could counter out Row being over fucking, like this is bad. And they don't get it. Yeah. I just
I mean, this is coming from the president who stood in the live room a wealth of people said nothing will fundamentally change for you.
Yes, he did. He made it.
And what what I don't get is how many people I have talked to and I have seen talking who are like what what do you expect them to do? I mean, the strike would destroy the economy. And you're like so in your mind, here are the two options you're saying one is the economy's crushed to is the workers have to take a deal they hate you seriously telling me you can't imagine a third option. They're not they can't Can you just think for a minute, there's one other party involved here. It doesn't even enter into their thinking that maybe he could muscle somebody else into taking a deal they don't like and afford it.
There's a fourth option nationalized well done many times. By presidents Yeah, yeah. I mean, this isn't hard. He's just a bad president. God, and
it's just it's so hard. I get it. You don't want to admit it? You know, it's like, I don't know, what is it? What is the analogy you married? You would see in someone for a while all your friends are like, that's the worst person ever been my life? I can't be your friend anymore. If you keep dating that person. You're like, no, they're great. And then you marry him. And then you wake up and you're like, Oh, my God, this is a terrible person. But But I can't admit that because then I have to call my friends up and apologize to them. Or something. Right? Why can't people just they're politicians. What is the sense that you have to be loyal to them when they?
It is something wrong with us in America? Really?
We're a cult. We're, you know, we're just a different version of North Korea, but we like to call. This isn't capitalism. This is a cult this.
That's exactly what it is. We're somebody I saw a tweet where somebody said, now you're mad at Jerry Jones, and I get it. But what about Joe Biden and they put up the caption of him saying he didn't want black kids to you know, he didn't want his kids going to a school. That was a jungle. I don't know if you guys remember when he did that. Yes. So I said, Well, point well taken. Jerry Jones was 14 Joe Biden was well grown. When he made that comment. I got it. Right. Yeah. Integrating black students with turn schools into a jungle a racial jungle. Compliments show.
Yeah, yeah. Ah.
Hey, it's been a week.
It, it. I don't know what I was talking to somebody today, it was like the only things that are happening, that the railway thing. There was an article politico put up the other day I said it to Dave about a woman who's in the CIA writing about the Saudi subject. Nobody ever talks about the emotional cost to CIA operatives, for what they do all over the world, how much it hurts them to overthrow democracy and chop off people's hands and, you know, at least have to be in the room while their associates do those things. And I just, it just feels like, every time you think this, everything's just, it just gets more insane. It just gets more. I don't know. I mean, this episode's gonna drop in a few weeks. So we don't know I have no idea what's going to happen with this railway. It just it seems to me that like don't know, this could be an artifact from an interesting time. Because what do you think of the odds? Let's you guys want to go the record here in case this can come out and people can can can check it? Is there a chance in hell that there's a wildcat strike? No. Is this that moment? You know, thanks.
So we're just gonna go to jail. can afford to go to jail?
I mean, the ones who can jail, right. But if they all do, that doesn't happen.
That's not what they should do. Australia. This just happened like, a few years ago. It wasn't it wasn't the the rail trains, it was the passenger trains. So all of the all of the guys that worked on the trains to stop taking money from people, there's ways to do it. You know, you can slow everything down to a trickle and go, Yeah, I don't know what's going on. We're trying really hard. You can grind everything to a halt and just go, yeah, we're not a strike we're working, because that's the option that's been put on the table. So do it take it,
then. It's gonna be bad. What we're gonna do something different for this final episode, we finished up all the instructive portions of these classes. We now I would say we all know now how to run a presidential campaign. Right?
Okay, yeah, I actually hope.
You know how, sir, before we get into this, this summing up thing, literally, is there anything and other things is a fair criticism of this class, considering who you are and what you've done? But is there anything in here that made you even for an instant go? Oh, like, I didn't think of that.
No, but it's unfair to ask me that, because ya know, exactly, because you've done it in the belly of it. On presidential but on other levels, too. I will say that there were some things that they emphasized that had me saying, Yep, that's right. That's right. Or it made me remember certain things on the various campaigns that I've been on. So I wouldn't say it was a total. It wasn't a total waste. But I mean, there's a masterclass is more geared towards people who've never been involved in campaigns before.
Oh, yeah. No, for sure. For sure. I mean, I would have been surprised if you would walk out going Damn, I wish we had done that on. But did was were either of you surprised by anything you saw from it? I don't mean like details. I mean, just like what you saw of who they are of, of Axanar rove. I mean, I. I have some thoughts, but I wanted to hear what you
know, they were exactly kind of what I thought they'd be, I think, I think Karl Rove is an evil genius. And I think Axelrod is a guy who got really lucky and found a once in a lifetime candidate. And I don't think he really knows that much more than anybody else. I think Karl Rove if you're willing to use those sorts of tactics, he's a great guy to have. I think Axelrod just sounds like you could replace him with any other banana. And
neither did you. I mean, you probably you've only been in rooms in the vicinity of these gentlemen, I would have to imagine. I mean, were there any surprises as to who they were for you?
No, not at all. And even I think something that we brought up last time when we were together, which is the friendship and it was very clear what this masterclass did reveal is just how strong of a relationship that they have with one another so much so that Axelrod did not you know, point out any of the he didn't go sideways a row at all, it was adoringly. I mean, he was he adored the stories about the Republicans. He told many of them himself. So
yeah, there is one moment in this thing where they sort of they wrote gets a little testy with Have the axon says it's fun and we'll get to it. But yeah, I guess for me, it's like, I'd never give an axon that much thought. You know, you pay attention to these characters when they sort of emerge. I do. I mean, obviously I'm not in the in the world that you are but you know, rove Obviously we're very familiar with and I was not particularly surprised with him especially after during the George W. Bush class. X Ron, I thought, okay, and I'm finally paying attention to this guy. And yeah, like they said, I'm genuinely surprised that wonder if anyone's talking to him about this? I wonder if he shows us any of his friends. I wonder if he's embarrassed by it? Because I think the clear impression I get out of this boy, did you get lucky. Yeah, Karl Rove put a legitimate idiot, war criminal in office, in spite of the odds, and Axelrod just happened to walk into a room with a once in a lifetime miraculous candidate decided he's going to run for President seems like,
you know, the saying it's better to be lucky. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
That's right. I tried to be both I tried to be both the the, to the last chapter of this thing is the two of them discussing the current state of American politics. And it's interesting for a lot of reasons, I think it'd be fun to, instead of pulling a clip or here or there, it's just kind of walk through the whole thing and stop anytime anything leapt out at us. So if you guys are ready, we're gonna kick this off, shall we?
Yes. How do we get from President Obama, who is a unifier to Donald Trump, who's the divider? Because a lot of people thought that during those eight years that they weren't being listened to maybe longer than eight years. They thought, You know what? The coasts seem to be doing good, but I don't seem to be doing good. It seems that they're paying attention to the people in academia, and people in their foundations and smart people in Washington. But they're not paying attention to me and enough, those people were around that when it came down an election, think about 32% of the people in 2016. And the exit polls thought the country was going in the right direction. And they voted for Hillary Clinton by 89 to eight, but nearly two thirds thought the country was seriously off on the wrong track. And that was enough to give Donald Trump the victory, including, like 40,000 people in Pennsylvania and 11,000 people and 80,000 votes in the three states of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania,
what you say is absolutely true. This was a change election, Donald Trump was the most authentic agent of change, whatever you think of the changes, and he spoke to those voters in a very vivid way with
that part right there. Yeah. Donald Trump in that general election was the most authentic. He didn't say symbol, but the most authentic symbol of change. That is absolutely true, because Donald Trump came off as a populist so we know that he's a full populace, but that the populist language was there. He talked about the rotten trade deals, he talked about draining the swamp, you know, all of the things that people needed to hear at that time, because neoliberalism actually, you know, brought to you by you here, brought to you by Well, Neale Donald J. Trump brought to you by neoliberalism, neoliberalism.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what's interesting to me is you're seeing Axelrod deserves so openly acknowledged. I wonder if some of that is just some I
don't you think he misunderstands it, though, like to him? He thinks, Well, it's the same thing as Obama, he Obama, he was more, you know, sort of able to talk to people and, and unique. I don't think he I don't think he sees the neoliberal part of that. I think he sees no sure. Yeah. Well, that's his performance. He doesn't see the bigger picture at all. He doesn't look around and go, yeah, he was talking about NAFTA and all these other things. And he doesn't look at England and go, same thing. There are Italy and go, same thing there or France, and go, what's happening there. He hasn't seen that nibble. Neoliberalism is a massive failure. He just sees like this. Well, that guy could talk to the people better. That's all he sees.
But he's still seeing a certain that that the populist message is getting through this year, at least. But yeah, you're right. There's no interrogation of why that is, per se. Yeah, I've just constantly as I watched this whole thing, I'm sort of always amazed. There's some moments where he really doesn't, but we're Karl Rove just and I wonder if this is something that runs through the party. It seems like it does they see more malevolently intelligent than Democrats or Republicans just get what's going on? Which is why they can't yep,
this seems like Of Mice and Men here. That's that's the hobby even to people living in completely different, you know, spheres.
Yeah. David Axelrod going tell me about the swing vote Karl, tell me about the swing votes.
be cyclical in our judgments. I always say there's a replica and a remedy. And nope. And voters rarely choose the replica of what they have. Donald Trump was the anti Obama in every way and his style in his approach. He wasn't interested in nuance. He wasn't interested in complexity. He wasn't interested in rules. His basic message was, I'll take care of it. Let me take care of it. Trust me, and I'll take care of you. And
yeah, you're right. He's he's just talking about this in these very surface terms, where it's like, oh, people just want the opposite of what they had last time. Yeah, with no reflection as to the actual conditions that go into those votes. That's right. Oh, he's not Obama. I'll vote for that now. Because that's what we are. We're just these are these binary idiots who just have to swing back and forth constantly without any introspection at all, in his mind.
Yeah, they're not taking it. Like you talked about, you know, Wisconsin and those states, and it's like, yeah, more factories still closed. Like it's still this is still an ongoing process. I think when Obama got out of office, I think it was 120,000 factories that had closed since 2000. It's an ongoing process. Like it's like, it's like the colonization of America. It's sort of in a way, like they're just ripping through things and destroying lives of, you know, these people. And they don't, there's just no concept of that to them. They're just like, that's why Trump rose up. He people needed to hear, let's, let's break it all down and start over. That's it's not working. I mean, they don't have any concept that's not working. They think their lives are great. So it's fine. But it's not there's nothing working here.
Well, their lives are great. And it's very clear that they are having this masterclass solely through that lens. You know, the the, the needs of the people don't need, that it doesn't even cross their minds that this really was a revolt against the status quo. And Donald Trump was the conduit for the pain that people were filling out. He was the wrong conduit, no doubt about it, but he was a conduit nevertheless. And there are no lessons to be learned. I mean, they neoliberals, the the people who control the Democratic Party and all the apparatus of that party, have not learned that lesson. They do not see this, you know, there. We were talking about, you know, before we started recording the was what just happened to the railroad workers. And somebody sent me a tweet of a worker that said that they wanted to see Donald Trump impeached for everything that he did. They had a flag outside their home, saying such for like three years. And now because of the betrayal by Joe Biden, again, a conduit for neoliberalism that they are no longer going to vote for him. They they will vote for Trump. This is what they said we will vote for Trump over Joe Biden. See this is in line with the problem. Yeah, yes, that's it. But they don't catch on.
Can't acknowledge any of that. Because his guy was the guy who was presiding over that for eight years. And that would mean Yeah, acknowledging that,
yeah, that was when he stood up. Yeah, you know, the thing about NAFTA and the thing about what Biden just did, dog dogs barking? Yep. There it's a
Nina, I heard of dogs
so so NAFTA, they didn't necessarily jump ship. They just didn't vote. And that's what this will do. It's not necessarily true, there are gonna be some, they're gonna say, I'm gonna vote for it. But there's just, there's just a bunch of people that just go I'm out. And that's, that's the same way you lose an election as having them switch sides. You have more Democratic voters in this country, more left leaning people, but they don't vote because you suck. Like, it's just betrayal This is they have been the party betrayal for so many years now. Since Clinton came into office in 94, they have been the party of betrayal. It's not it's it's way different than being the party of corporate people party of betrayal is worse because people know you're supposed to be doing the right thing and you're not. So it's worse, that when there's an alcoholic dad, and a non alcoholic mom, and the mom lets the dad abused the kids. The kids are always more mad at the mom. But it's just a psychological thing. Yeah, And then always happens. They carry rage to the parent that didn't protect them from the one that was beating them. It's very common. And that's just the kind of thing that's going on here. Now.
I also think they just say the Democrats are working towards making South Carolina now the first primary. Yes. Seems to be another way to kind of build a wall against the left. That's right. I mean, they're just they're just, they're conscious of what they're doing. Yeah, it's the part where they're just going about the business of losing elections that I don't understand. But,
I mean, the corporate Democrats, that's who they want to win, but South Carolina, me would Democrat ultimately win South Carolina, nowadays. Yeah. Chances are the corporate wing of the Democratic Party. That's all this is about.
Yeah, it's really dumb. It's like you're doing in a state that nobody ever wins as a Democrat. That's just Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. We need to,
we need to try to be more like Republicans. I mean, just the body language. I wish we were a video show here, because it's these two guys in a room and it goes to that it's just like, axon. It's always sort of leaning in. And he's got this kind of conciliatory look. And he's, he's always just kind of like, wow, golly, gee whiz. And rove just kind of sitting back, and it's almost like he's like throwing bones to a puppy. I mean, it's just you can just see the power dynamic in this room just by looking at these two. And that's something our listeners are going to lose out on. But let's, let's keep going
up. And and there was enough of a market for that to win that election.
Well, elections are never about just one candidate either. And the Democrats worked very hard at nominating the one person in America whom Donald Trump could beat. And
don't. They did? Well, I'll
say this, if you if it's a change election, then someone who's calling card has experience in Washington is not necessarily going to be the answer, particularly if
they don't have an explanation what that experience will lead them to do. The thing that was missing in her campaign is the thing that you so rightly point out is what is the message? What is it that they want to do in office, and other than, quote, break the glass ceiling, which was, which was not a powerful enough message, particularly among women who were hoping for somebody to break the glass ceiling, but they wanted to break the glass ceiling for a good purpose. Other than just breaking the glass? Yeah. Well, look,
it says Karl Rove, because he knows. He knows what the women wanted.
Right. But he seems to be more in touch with that than a lot of Democrats were.
Yeah, no, I'm not. Yeah, I mean, him. That is true. What he said, and so this, this assumption, this is another example of how Neo liberals a corporate type, Democrats don't get it. They use identity, just for the sake of using identity. There's no subs, they're not using identity to really solve deep rooted conundrums, systemic problems. They're using it for their own edification, and nothing more and people see right through that. I don't want every woman to win. That means that well, I'm supposed to be for Sarah Palin. But you know, I'm supposed to be for Carrie Lake. Maybe just about wearing a skirt, or pants Sue or,
or our new our new rep of the House of Representatives, our new speaker, guy there. What's his name?
Oh, yeah. Jeffrey,
okay. Well, there's that guy's like, That guy was like, shot out of hedge funds. Like, he, he's like, he represents headphone. How do you think that's gonna go for America like, but that's it. Now they can say, Look, we gotta we got a person of color up here. And you're like, Yeah, but that guy's harming everybody. So
the Republicans are happy to be watching Karl Rove here. They just they understand exactly how cynical that is now empty it is. I can't remember we talked about here, Nina. But I've said for years now. I believe that the first black woman president will be a Republican. Yes, I think they will. They will do that. Absolutely. No, we're still going to work for you whenever you decide. But
I percent agree with that.
Yeah, I mean, I think and I think they'll do it. They'll do that on purpose. Because because it will funnel the hell out of Democrats, like what do we do? Because if they go after our too hard, it means they have to dismantle their entire thinking about this stuff and start with
that facade that they put up all these years.
One of the tests and this is what I would say to all the folks who are watching us now, one of the tests of a campaign that has problems is if it has multiple slogans, if you if you have nine slogans during the course of a campaign, likely you're not going to win. Because what it means is that you're changing your message, you're changing your approach, that there's no constancy to it. There's no authenticity in the
tooth 26 Extreme debates. I think one of the advantages that Trump gained unintentionally was that Hillary didn't understand the less you talked about being a woman, the better off she was. It was like President Obama, he didn't go out there and say, Hey, vote for me, I'm going to be the first African American president of the United States. He let it simply be seen in his conduct. This is a man worthy of the highest office in the land. And, uh, wouldn't it be great for our country as an expression of how far we've come? If he were elected? She She instead sort of poked people about the issue. And I think it was one of the reasons why at the end, that people said, Wait a minute, is that all you're gonna give me, and particularly if you're, you know, sort of a centrist, somewhat conservative leaning, but still available to vote for a Democrat woman? You said, I'm not going well, I want change. That's more important for me than breaking the glass ceiling. So she had accentuated change. I'm going to be a different kind of a president. And here are the things that I want to do. And left unspoken. Oh, incidentally, I'm going to be the first woman to be elected chief executive, the United States, I think she would have been better off in the debate.
Here nodding her head.
Yeah, no, he's right about that. Because I'm asked I'm with Hillary, whatever the slogan was, right? First of all, I'm with her, they did change
arrow pointed to the right.
To a the least they told the truth about the arrow, the more she made it, about her, and not about the needs, the dreams, the desires, the hopes, the fears of the people of this country, then people everyday people, you know, working class people are saying about them. And if it's about her, then it can't be about me. And so I'm not voting for her because it ain't about me. And we had a very simple slogan. It's not, it's not me, it's us. Yes, this is
also aside from all the kind of gender stuff to it get to kind of be reasonably one of the problems also making it about you. The candidate is now you're stressing the fact I know a lot of people vote based on this anyway. But you're you're stressing the fact that I need to like you, not just what you're running on. I'm sorry. I know a lot of people and I'm sure I'm sure you know, listen, you can tell me I'm wrong. I've been around a lot a Bernie is a familiar character to me, just in terms of sort of the the type of character he is, and they can they can be fun to hang around with for a while, but they can be exhausting, man. I was never there was never a part where I was like, Oh, I like him personally. I was never once it never occurred to me to root for Bernie's personal success. I don't give a shit. But if you're gonna make it about that you're making me have to go okay, well, why am I invested in you aside? Do you believe in anything I believe in? Do I like you? And it's like, you're now counting on everyone to find you really likable. And
oh, there's there's a problem we had? You know, that's one thing that I bring up is these are the two most unlikable candidates since we started taking those polls of who's likable in like the 80s. Like, yeah, it
wasn't the first time in history that more people voted against each candidate. And for Yeah.
And that's like, that's not a thing here. But that's a massive Yeah. And
it needs to be addressed. Because it's a problem. It's a real problem. Because you end up with a minority candidate like like Trump, who's, you know, beloved by a minority and despised by a majority. And then you have a party, ramming a sincerely disliked candidate down the throat of everybody else. Yeah, I mean, it in retrospect, that that election seems like a gimme, it was like, here's the, here's the candidate that the people chose over on the right. And here's the candidate that was chosen for the people on the left. And now we're gonna let them run out in the play box and look at last. Yeah, but it's interesting here, these guys talk about it, because it feels like like Rob is just sitting there knowing this is the case. And he's an anti Trumper, which is interesting. But he's very sort of cold and clinical. And Axelrod just again, kind of hangdog having to sort of acknowledge these truths without looking too much into his party's responsibility for creating these situations. He's still, he's still clinging to the idea that it's just about candidates. It's just about optics. It's not about people looking at their lives and voting for, you know, their own self interest.
I'm Sarah Chang. And you know, when she began in politics, I think that there was the sort of Maggie Thatcher, Margaret Thatcher rule that, you know, people didn't see women as strong and competent enough to hold these executive positions. So you needed to over compensate for that last point on the tooth.
I think he's right there. I think he's got a point. I think there is an age thing going on where I think we're the younger one Men candidates, they grew up in a time where that's that's not drummed into your head the same way. It's like I remember talking to friends about how you know, no, you don't understand it's really important, like young young girls need to see a woman in the White House to know they can do that too. And then, and then I'm talking to my teenage niece, and they're like, I know, I can do that. But Hillary Clinton grew up in a time when that was not something that a young girl could take for granted. You know, and I think some of that is common to some of that is her not changing with the times which goes to another favorite of Dave's their mind that like maybe old people should stop running for the highest offices in the land. With one or two exceptions, by the way. It's a bit of a gerontocracy, we
shouldn't, we shouldn't need Bernie to run, we should have many other people who could run one of the problems with the Democratic Party is they, they, they get rid of those people, they, they push them out, they crushed them. There's a reason that leadership for the Democratic Party has been crazy old people for so long is because they're not giving space to anybody else. It's their job to get the hell out of the way.
They they blocking, blocking and tackling baby, don't even try it. I mean, you see Clyburn just won a seat back within the leadership of the caucus. I mean, that guy or the Congress, and you got to scratch your head, like how in the hell did he get elected? First of all, why is he running for that leadership position? Again, that's number one. I mean, at a certain point, it just becomes about you. And it's selfish. And that's what we're dealing with. And that is really the revelation of the Hillary Clinton's campaign as well. At a point it was really all it's always been about her. And it was it was a very selfish, and that's why she didn't you know, the American people did not absolutely did not want her they didn't want her 2008. And they did not want her in 2016. And they said it two times. Both times, we don't want
what do you do about that, though? What are you about people like climbing? There's a lot of people sort of knee jerk responses, like, what would you term limiting? Like, yeah, now you're ensuring that everyone in the government is just wealthy. And there's no upside to that
the power is going somewhere, it's either gonna go to the bureaucrats or to an elected as much as it pains us as hard as it is to beat an incumbent and lease, the power theoretically is in the hands of the people people don't know nature abhors a vacuum that power. So you think so in Ohio, let me use Ohio for an example. They people, groups of people fought for term limits, they were really mad at the federal level. But they fought for term limits here in the state of Ohio. Now you have some of those people who were the leaders of the initiative to put term limits on members of the legislature in Ohio, who regretted because now the lobbyists and the bureaucrats have all the power or most of the power, and the leftists have very little because that turnover is so much.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, so that's a problem. But how do you what do you do about a problem like Clyburn and somebody because obviously, the longer you're in, the more you're capable of and more power you've amassed, the more you're able to do what he's doing and and you know, he's a problem. A lot of the Nancy Pelosi has a problem. He's
I mean, there is something too long Jeopardy. But but at a point, you overdoing that longevity me with Dr. King said, longevity has its place. Now, if we could dissect what he said has its place. He didn't say it had to be forever, but it has its place. And there does need to be some type of historic knowledge about what happened before you got there. Which is why you do need some people in both legislatures and also in the Congress, who understand how to puzzle pieces fit. But at a certain point, you need somebody else to come in there and you can show them and teach them how the puzzle pieces fit and let them take it. The next leg. Yeah. When you absolute power corrupts absolutely. So just as long way for me to go to at a certain point, we are looking at absolute power corrupting. Absolutely. And that is what we see with a Clyburn would have Pelosi you know, all this inside of trading. Let's use that for an example. They don't. They enrich themselves and their families. Meanwhile, Big Mom and big papa, they'll handle insider trading opportunities. Hmm. But members of Congress
who work on Wall Street who are not allowed their stock market analysts are not allowed to invest their families candidate. It's like there are regulations in place are really simple. Everyone understands they work yes, we know how to take care of this problem. You just apply it to elected representatives. But to do that elected representatives have to vote. Right for that. Yeah.
And I think I mean, if you think about the framer, They never imagined people staying in office this long. This is not how it was meant to be at the beginning. And now I got my qualms with many of the framers now, don't get me wrong, but on this point, they never envision people being in these seats this long.
Well, nobody lived that long back then.
Well, that's true. That's true to Mother Nature took care of it real quick.
If you're 50, and you're in a great grandparent, man, you're doing something
wrong. That is true. There
is an element of race in our politics, and it's been coursing through our politics since the beginning. And Donald Trump was willing to go where other candidates didn't there were elements of his campaign that we had heard before echoes of George Wallace echoes of, of the Nixon campaign, and in 68, and he stirred up a reaction that redounded to he traded votes. He traded some of those suburban Republicans who are uncomfortable with that position, gamble that most of them would stay because he was wearing the red jersey, and he excited the base in other parts of the country enough to carry the states that you mentioned,
yeah, well, I'd have a slightly different view, which is, if you look at it, where he did well, and won the election, were by taking counties that had voted for Barack Obama once or 200 of them and shifting them into the Republican column. And remember, he gets about the same percentage of the African American vote. And the same percentage of the Hispanic vote as Mitt Romney did. In fact, he runs ahead of Mitt Romney's performance among Latinos. So
this is always an interesting one to me, because obviously, Trump did trade in. I mean, more subtly, then than now. But But I mean, it was it was he was more overtly friendly to white supremacy than anybody I've seen running for major party in my adult life. And that made it easy, I think, for a lot of people to just sort of ignore everything else he was doing to to their detriment. But I don't know I was interested in your response to this, Nina because it's like, they feel like they're both sort of telling the truth here. And, and the truth really lies in the middle. But it was always fascinating to me. As much as I tried to be clear eyed about this, those Obama view voters who went to Trump, were startling to me at first. What's What's your thought about that? And about him and the extent to which he plays to that audience. And
it goes back to the to the change thing. I mean, President Obama ran a hope of change. Trump didn't run necessarily well at all hope and change. When he did, there was no hope. No, definitely no change, but he ran on, I'm gonna drain the swamp. And so even if they're totally polar opposites, there is something attractive about a person who comes in and tells you the truth. Although he's lying, I mean, it's kind of he is a liar. But he told the truth about the failures of the system. And he lied about being the person to fix it. And I think people are attracted to that. And then he had the strong man persona, too. And when Axelrod says that there is an element of race in our politics, No shit, Sherlock. The only one? I'm thinking to myself, that is not a revelation, there is an element. No race is all up in the politics. Are you kidding me? And it's not just Trump. And that's what troubles me.
I think he's afraid of offending his friend. I mean, I really do. I think he's sitting there with a guy who's, you know, let's face it. It's like the Republican Party is a white supremacy overtly white supremacy party. And he knows that and he's afraid to go all in, he'll happily sit around with a bunch of Democratic friends and talk about him. But he say they're a Colorado, he doesn't want to offend them too much. By telling you the truth about his own work.
I want to say and I know Dave wants to jump in here. It's not even from my vantage point. It's not just even the Republican Party. You said something early, just about overtly that Trump was overtly we got a lot of coverts Yes, covert for sure. People who were sure vertically in both of these parties. So no, well, element is the main is essential to politics,
but it's much easier to explain to a liberal why Donald Trump is a white supremacist, and then why take your pick over the Democratic side because it's, I mean, he's literally like last week sitting down with Nazis at dinner, you know? And there is a kind of, it's all surprising. There is a sense of on a lot of white liberals, especially that when you talk about racism, racists are people who, you know, they have layers underneath their house where they have the giant map of America with all the lights on it, like if something was a James Bond movie, with either a swastika on the floor or you know, a burning car Ross or something, and they don't understand the more pernicious and kind of day to day, aspects of that. So if you have someone like Donald Trump saying, there's good people on both sides, you know, after what happened when when the white supremacy ran over that woman, it's a lot easier to go CC, they're the racists,
I mean, it's easier for them, to cope with it. That's how that is. That's not a coping mechanism. But if you go talk to anybody that's been on the other side that had the book bear the brunt of racism and anti blackness. So this the entire makeup of the we are complicit as a nation. So Trump is easier to deal with, because it's in your face, but they don't want to deal with the covert nature of systemic racism and anti blackness, and how that system works to crush generationally. The most marginalized people in this country, and it started with the founding of this nation. So when this man says elements, he has the luxury to say elements and for anybody who sees Trump, which a lot of liberals, as you just said, See the Liberals because look, look over there. So you don't have to look over here. Look over there. So you're not reminded that Biden helped to draft the crime bill, look over there. So you don't have to be reminded that he said that if black children were bused to schools with white children, that it'd be a jungle he want his kids going to a jungle. So look at what's the difference between Biden saying that a Trump saying that it's all in how its presented.
Exactly, yes. Yeah. If he was waving a red flag, and the other was wearing, you know, socks made out of that flag, and it's
right. I mean, it's the difference between wearing wearing a white sheet or wearing a blue suit over the white sheet. That's what the difference is.
Yeah. If you want to see the racism in the Democratic Party, just go back to the 2008 campaign.
Hello, somebody Clinton, and
her campaign could not have been more disgusting and racist. That's it. You know. So they're, yeah, they are a different variety of racism. I think that you know, we're just in a place where it's like when you're dealing with it's funny, I, I have a friendship. I had a friendship and over a buddy of mine putting up a picture of Joe Strummer. Before the 2016 election, they said, vote the fascists out, vote for Biden. And I said, I said, Well, that's fascism to some people. And he and someone sits at Moss and he said, Where's their fascism? I go, I think if you're not white, in America, you're dealing with some pretty close to fascism all the time. And then he stopped talking to me. And the reason he stopped talking to me is because I was right. But that's, that's the reality of it. I'm a white guy. I don't live in anything. I always been separate. I was talking to my friend about this from high school last night. We're just talking about all the shit we did. And I just stopped him. And I said, Dude, if we were black, and he said, Yeah, we both would have been in jail. 100 Fucking percent. I would have been in jail as with my friend 100% We would have been in jail. And that's, that's, that's the difference. That's the life I don't have to live. Yeah,
can you remember who it was? It's become such a running joke. But 10 years ago, the New York Times it wasn't Trayvon. It was somebody else was some young black kid had been murdered in the New York Times portrayal of him, you know, they would you throw on the word thug and everything even though he's clearly the victim here. And I remember, I can't remember which one and it's when I cancelled my subscription to the York Times, but I wrote a thing where I sort of went through the list of things I had done by the time I was that kids age that would have qualified me as a thug. Yeah. It was chilling. Some of them I left off because I wasn't sure. Yeah. It's like, it's just just, you know, we're kids we're doing and yeah, yeah,
I carried it for six months. I think I carried a duffel bag, not a huge duffel bag. It was a small duffel bag, maybe it maybe a like a you put your your gym clothes in with drugs in them to school and sold them. Come on. Nobody ever stopped me or looked at me or look twice or even thought about it was the easiest thing in the world to do.
I mean, that story day reminds me of the one that Ben Cohen you know, one of the cofounders of Ben and Jerry's tells all the time and he says exactly what you said if I were black. I probably would not have been able to be a co founder of Ben and Jerry's because him and his friends were smoking pot and they got caught by the police. And but the police did not arrest them or lock them up or any of that they got a ticket for littering. You said Had I been black out and went to jail. And Ben and Jerry's might not exist today.
Yeah, that's Yeah, that's right. I mean, we just live different lives, we get to live different lives. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, I do. I'm certainly not definitive. I really do. I think this actually makes it worse. I think Axelrod is playing it down, because he does not want to offend Karl Rove, and that is insane. I think when you find yourself in that room with that person, you call them a friend. And you don't want to speak to them honestly, about the organization that they are a key player in it. That's, that shouldn't be a problem. You should go home at night, and you should be thinking about your relationship and what you actually believe in.
I mean, there he's sitting across from a guy who manufactured help manufacture the stealing of the election in 2004, by suppressing the black vote in Ohio in extraordinary ways. There's a movie about it. Oh, yeah. Documentary. Oh, no longer a lot happening. Okay, there you go. Yeah, it's just this is he's sitting across from a guy who used pure racism, to steal an election, and they're just hanging out talking about elections.
But he's being genuine to that. And that's why I know in this conversation, I keep bringing that up. But I'm telling you as we watch this, and I wish that the people who are going to be listening to us talk about this could see this, there is a fondness I mean, we all three of us have touched on that. That is not what he came to do. And so we must reconcile ourselves to that understanding that he didn't come in there to challenge he came in here to cosign, right? There's a difference
even that even if you're not going to choose, I wonder if you went home at all, during any of the shooting of this and just went, What's wrong with me? I doubt it.
I'm not sure. And I see it as explicitly race. I think he was the angry candidate could
be a reflection of whether the Democratic candidate was
not sure if you would call that explicitly racist because you're white man.
banging my head up against a wall right here my house? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Oh, my God,
I always wonder if like somebody on the crew of these things I get this way. But the stupidest thing I'm like, watching some old TV show and, you know, some character will like mispronounce a word that the character should know. And like, was there anybody on the set? Who could just go? Yeah, no, it's Albert Camus, not Caymus. You idiot. I did was to Sheldon, I say it's a guy's an English professor, a literature professor. It keeps talking about Albert Camus. It may be crazy. But but you're like, is there anybody on the crew of this who's just gone? At the very least just like fuck it, I quit
a strong enough candidate with the
people who can't afford to quit. And she went,
and she wasn't because of any jerk. And the percentage of African Americans and percentage of Latinos, and percentage of millennials who voted in 2016 is lower than the coalition that Barack Obama was able to put together into the house. But he did
speak to though, you know, whatever, whether it was race or other elements, I think it was a combination of things. He did speak to those. And you're right, those are counties that went strongly for Obama who went for Trump that was around economics. And there were other elements to his message as well, in small town in rural America. The lesson here, I think, for presidential candidates is don't write off. You can't write off communities and assume that because young people and women and minorities are an ascendant group in our electorate, that you're going to carry the day. It's not good strategy. And it's also not good strategy for governance, if you win.
Elections occur between two individuals at a precise period in time. And Hillary Clinton was the candidate of status quo, because she never articulated what the change would be under. And Donald Trump was, I'm going to I'm going to take a break and
hope. But never she did the opposite. Do you remember the hats? The hats that came out of the DNC, America still matters already? Great, aren't ya Americans? Like, that's the opposite of saying there will be changed. Wet or hard the other way?
Yeah. And that was clever, trying to be clever. And playing to people you already had playing to people who already had that's not going to play with people who are leaning towards Trump, because they're leaning towards Trump because America isn't quite Wait for them telling you it's already great. You're like, I don't know, which is worse when that are calling them deplorables?
I'm not sure.
As long as Senator Turner, let me ask you get your position as politician. Have you ever when running for office just insulted a huge chunk of your opponent's electorate their vote? If you just call their supporters morons or assholes or
thought about it, but you know, if I went that route, then surely I would not expect them to vote for me. I mean, sure. If that's the path I was gonna take, and just again, that that arrogance that you just don't call these people out like that and think they're gonna start they're gonna run to you know, they're running away from you, because you just said that they that basically, they are not worthy. That's what you said to them. When you call these people deplorable. They they're dumb, they're stupid. They can't think then No, hell no, I'm not voting for you. That's just like, well, I won't say that. But no, I've never just No, I've never accepted voters that didn't align with me and expected them to vote for me.
Yeah, I cared that that was a jaw dropping moment in the way people cheered it. And it was like, that wasn't really reinforced. For me, in fact that so many being on it's on both sides, all sides don't understand the point when your candidate is out there is that if they're just talking to you, if they're just firing you up, and no one else they're gonna lose? The point is to reach people who don't agree with you.
That's right. And you know what, it breeds resentment, too. I can't tell you the people I talked to who resented her for saying that about them. A lot of people would live in in the in the basement because they couldn't afford to live anywhere else. So definitely, it breeds resentment.
I mean, the problem is, is that the Democratic Party has been become the party of lanyard wares and professional class. I mean, listen, liberal covers a very well, it's a great yeah, should read very good. But, you know, that's the problem. That's the base. And that's a very small base. And that's a problem. It
is. Remember when Senator Sanders got criticized for going on Fox and doing that Townhall. And then when the stats came out to show that it was one of the most watched events on Fox, then the other neoliberals hey, sign me up, I want to go to but what Senator Sanders was able to do in that room to our point about I don't have to necessarily agree with you voted A, B, C, or D, as much as I need to try to seek to understand you and to get you to understand me, Stephen Covey, you know, one of the great leadership gurus no longer here anymore, but he had a quote, and I think it goes something like, Seek first to understand and then to be understood, and that's what Senator Sanders was able to do. Now. He if you were talking BS, he wouldn't have done it. He would, you know, say, no, no, no, I disagree with you on that. I mean, he wouldn't just let you say something to get something off, and not corrected if it was glaringly wrong. But what he was able to do in that town hall, I mean, I remember like it was just today, he had them chaired. Fox was even shocked. I mean, people were in there. Hell yeah, we need Medicare for all, you know, I mean, they were they he had turned that entire space around. Why? Because he spoke to the needs of the people. He didn't talk over them. He didn't talk under them. He didn't talk about them. He talked with them. And he tapped into their needs. Yeah, that's the difference. And listen, he would have beat Donald Trump, in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, that. No,
he wouldn't. He would have easily done it. He, you know, he spoke to what people needed. And I know a few people who have Republican relatives after they watch Bernie like, Oh, I like what he has to say. People don't understand that they that even there's a big chunk of Republicans out there just want stuff they just need their material needs taken care of. And that's something Democrats can't comprehend. And it's like you would, if you did Medicare for all, you would, you would control the House of Representatives for 50 to 100 years. That's exactly right. He held
himself out as the anti Washington, yes. And at the end of the campaign, for about three or four weeks, he showed something that he hadn't shown before discipline, and he would stand up at these rallies and mock his staff. So they've told me to stay on the script Donald and mock him, but he stayed on the script. And so at the end of the election by various In margin in three states, he convinced just enough people to give them an electoral college majority based on one thing, and one thing only. I am the candidate of change.
That doesn't explain why 90% or so of Republicans currently have a favorable opinion of the job that he's doing, even though he is abrogating some fundamental principles that the Republican Party has stood for.
Well, look, I think that's understandable. We're in a tribal moment. Now, just as President Obama had very high approval ratings from Democrats when, you know, he did things that were quote, undemocratic, like getting a free trade agreement with Korea, and Colombia and Panama passed on his watch so hard, you know, if you attack a Democrat, but there's a Democrat president right now, and the Republicans attack him, Democrats will rally to his side. If a Republican president is attacked by the media or by Democrats, Republicans will rally to his side. I think it is a sign of the disruption of American politics, that we have chosen ourselves as members of tribe and have an are unconcerned, largely unconcerned with principles. You're right. Donald Trump. Remember, this is a guy who in 2006 gave his largest political contributions of his entire life until he ran for president elect Nancy Pelosi speaker and called for the impeachment of George W. Bush in 2007. I mean
is it worse it feels worse in my lifetime that degree. You know, it's gotta get exhausted. It's like no, so many liberals who love to they're always they're always talking about The Handmaid's Tale we're living in The Handmaid's Tale we're about to live in The Handmaid's Tale. It's like, okay. I don't actually think that's the correct analogy. I think the work of literature we're living in right now as the emperor has no clothes. And it doesn't feel like it's just Republicans. It's like, literally, we just saw Joe Biden and go out and he can just shove all these union workers just under the wheels of a bus. And I know so many Democrats who find a way in their mind to go yay, Joe, Democrats just saved the country in your like, your emperor is walking down Main Street naked, Donald Trump said that he'd go down Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and they still support him. He was right. But it's also true on the Democratic side. They feel like they don't know worse in my lifetime.
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think it's gotten way worse. Well, they, they went from lying and trying to hide it, to just doing it and not caring, like there was definitely a shift. And I think that came after Citizens United, they get so much money now they just think well, this will be fine. We've got all the cash. But there are moments like this with a railroad strike that I think they wildly underestimate, because they view it as any other issue. And it's not rows not either, like there are issues that they they just don't comprehend the magnitude of.
But I love the idea of these episodes could drop it like by the time they've dropped, Joe Biden has just like ripped off his jacket and revealed Himself to be the strong union man we always wanted to be and he's just shoved that deal now that we're all living in this worker's paradise when these episodes drop, I'll be so happy to be wrong. It's not going to happen, folks.
And yet, he is able to have this extraordinary support among Republicans and why because he is the Republican who holds the White House.
But one of the things that worries me, Carl, is that we have a system that is set up to prevent a tyranny of the majority, a tyranny of the big industrial states over the rural states. And what we have now is a kind of a tyranny of the minority. You have a president who gets 3 million votes less than his opponent, you have a Senate,
I'm with him, and then he goes there. That's not the problem. I mean, it is a problem. But it's like the tyranny of the majority. And then he goes to Donald Trump winning with less than, it's not about votes. It's about it's about the people who have access to the people who get
it exactly. That's what I was thinking to, like, what is he talking about? The Tyranny of the minority? Is the donor class?
Yeah, yeah, it's not the Electoral College, and I hate the Electoral College. I hate the electoral college. But But that's where I'm waiting for him. It almost sounds like he's going somewhere saying, and then he just goes there, you know, he's not going to start talking about money
that represents less than in terms of population, less than a majority of the country. And the same is true of the house. And they're making decisions that don't necessarily reflect a majority of you in the country. And so it lends some momentum to the idea that
I made for him to say making decisions that does not reflect the majority view That's happening under Democratic president. It happened under President Obama to What are you talking about? Most of the time, the decisions are made to the opposite of what the majority of the people want. The majority of the people right now want government to play a deeper role. Just give us some examples. within healthcare, Medicare for All Hello, maybe the pandemic will do that to you. The majority of the people have turned and opinions have changed about the legalization and decriminalization of cannabis. So the majority of the people don't want to see Congress be able to trade stocks. But Is any of that happening? Hell no. The majority of the people do not want to see the child tax credit go away. So what kind of lala land is he living in?
Yeah, yeah. They just they really, like the main point this drives home is they don't they? They don't live in the real world. Like he just don't know. They have no clue what's happening. It's really amazing. And it's, it's depressing, because we're at this point now, where it's like, this is a completely non functional government that is just, this is almost like a king and queen overruling ruling over a land and they don't give a shit, what's happening with the peasants. I mean, it's really atrocious. And how many studies have come out that said, we don't live in a democracy. You know, it's just, it's terrible. And here, they are just really on through the motions.
And I mean, to act like all of the world's problems came tumbling down because Donald J. Trump got into office, nothing can be further from the truth. This man illuminated. What was already there. I see this is the problem. We see ourselves as we are under Trump. And people don't like it, especially to neoliberal, they don't like it. Yeah, because they're right there with them. They the same side, they just have different sides of the same coin. They're more palatable when they screw over the people. Whereas Trump is not palatable.
Republicans always do this thing. I mean, sometimes it's like joke, but they do that post mortem after after elections, anything. Yeah, they win. And I'm sure they did want after they lost to Obama the second time and, or they came up with all these conclusions, that four years later, Trump just went the exact opposite direction, it was kind of hilarious. You know, there were gonna be softer and gentler, and reach out to minorities. But what the fact that they did, it was what mattered. And I don't see Democrats doing that I don't see Democrats lose the election, I see them coming out of these midterms where we're like, Oh, you didn't lose as badly as he thought you would. That's not a victory. They don't come out of these things and do these post mortems. They don't try to figure out what the problem is. And I guess it's because for them, there's not really a problem, right? Doesn't matter if they really win or lose, as long as they keep their jobs as long as they keep their money. They get intermediate next, this is some fun stuff.
We have been deeply divided country from the very beginning. But what we haven't had are districts that are so thoroughly gerrymandered, that the only thing a candidate ever has to worry about is winning a primary and talking to the most strident voices in their own party. What we haven't had is a media environment in which you can construct these virtual reality silos, where you only have your point of view affirmed and not informed, and in which everyone who lives outside that silo is considered alien. These things have created an environment that is very, very difficult. We're more polarized now than we have been in, perhaps ever in our politics. And I don't think at the end of the day, that's healthy for the country.
That's not true, historically speaking.
So yeah, it's part of our country. All this stuff that people want to act like, is new is old. It's just we haven't fixed anything, like people used to get beaten up going to polls, or they'd have they'd have gang members there, you know, from these crazy old gangs in like Baltimore, in New York, and or they would have, they'd find a like a hobo type guy and haven't vote six times like, this is all stuff. It's been going on forever. We've been gerrymandering forever, like, What are you talking about?
And people would lose their jobs if he called in and threatened. You know, you have to vote a certain way or polling places would be closed. So black people couldn't go vote because all the white people voted early or they voted at night. So here none of this stuff in this country is new. What is new is the advent of the worldwide web. You know, that didn't exist 60 years ago, what is new Earth is the 24 hour news cycle and the vehicles of social media, so that the awareness that these things are going on, it hits people a lot sooner than it did 50 or 60 years ago. That is what's new. But Dave, you're absolutely right. The machinations of none of that is new. This has always been, and this is part of the problem is human is part of the human condition. This thing called politics and how people navigate that politics, and it can't be navigated and has been and continues to be, unfortunately, in some of the most vile ways possible. But I don't I don't know how this benefits them to act oblivious to these truths. I mean, we're just saying he's
talking about a brief period, I think he's talking about, you know, again, he grew up at this time were five and he's with JFK, where there were like three major news networks. And you know, previous to that it had been radio and newsprint. And talking about silos. I mean, you know, the heyday of newspapers, like any any major city had dozens of newspapers, each of which fed a completely different constituency, each of which told its readers to varying degrees, that people in those other constituencies were all lunatics and had to be destroyed. There was just a few years where we had TV network news, where it was just three sources all kind of giving us the same,
that's fine. And that went off at midnight or something. You know, I know, I'm dating myself now. But when I was a kid, that you know, it was annoying down and all the stations were off baby.
But then you had the, the Indian and the circle. And
yes, that's it. Yeah, the people don't really have no idea what it used to be like to get information back then if you if you thought the mainstream news was garbage. I mean, during the Iraq during the first the Desert Storm war, while I was doing the protest movement, we would like photocopy stuff out of books and hand it to each other, and you take it home and read it. Like that's how you were getting information about what was really going on. So, you know, it's the mainstream news used to keep everybody in the dark, and it's much more open now.
Yeah, I'm actually amazed. I think back I can't remember how we managed to stay informed. And before
we did, we would give each other we would hand each other stuff like, yeah, there were magazines. There were some magazines out there. I mean,
the nation with this the crazy thing, and my dad was like, remember as a kid. My parents always kept the nation and Mother Jones in the bathroom.
Mother Jones, there was one called Z Magazine.
Yeah, that came later. Yeah. But I mean, and the crazy thing is Mother Jones was like, such radical lefty, took a look at it now. And it's just,
oh, God, it's, oh, my god, Mother Jones
are still writing articles about how Hillary got shafted
by Mother Jones rolling, kicking the
door and be like that. Yeah, exactly. That's it.
Somebody just gave my kid a kid's book on Mother Jones. And I was like, I gotta read it. Make sure this has nothing to do with like, is it a story about the real Mother Jones or the actual magazine?
Do you all remember the story? She said something like she asked me one day she asked a man while he was in jail. And he said, Because he stole a pair of shoes. And she said, had you still had you still want to railroad up as senator? US senator?
Let's get into some last bits of advice from our buddies.
The President's weakness, is it he's focused on his base? No.
By the way, it should be mentioned, this is recorded in 2018. So when they talk about the president, they're talking about Trump.
Nobody wins in American politics by focusing on their base and base lonely, except if you are in the best Republican parts of Alabama, or the best democratic year in San Francisco, and you're Nancy Pelosi, then you need to do that all you need to worry about as a base. But in most states and in most contests. And certainly when you run for president, you cannot sustain either your majorities in Congress or yourself in the White House by focusing on the base only.
If the interesting question is what about independent voters in this equation?
Is that true, though? It seems to make sense. But I think about Trump, it's like, I don't think Trump lost in 2020 because he was just focused on his base. I mean, I think he came perilously close to winning, and I think he lost because it COVID But I can't think of a president who did more to just play to his base during his administration, and that seemed to be working. Yeah, I didn't fails catastrophically as Carl said it would.
I think he would have I think Trump would have won if it wasn't for COVID
I agree, unfortunately,
I'm going to say something that's blasphemous on this show. I don't think I've said this yet. But Karl Rove is wrong here.
If you are alienating independent voters, and I think that independent group includes some Republicans who are currently identifying themselves as, as independents, because they don't want to be identified with the President, if he can't make inroads with that group, if he continually goes back to the base, he is going to have a hard time
you and I became active in politics, with anywhere from a quarter to a third of the electorate were true independents, who were ticket splitters, who, who we were at a moment there where the old party alignments were declining. And as a result, there were a lot of people who were today 2012 election, it got down to what 7% slightly increased, true independence in the presidential race slightly increased in 2016. But I think more because people were sort of transitioning out of a party, rather than really becoming a quote, true independent. And as a result, there's not much playability in the electorate. And good politicians will respond to that by saying, I need to focus even more on the swing voters not so good politicians will say I'm gonna respond to that by stoking up my bass even more, the
fucking same thing. Kids think Democrats are always saying is we have to go for these these swing votes in the center.
Yeah, and they're wrong.
Yeah, they're completely wrong. But Trump proved that Trump whenever we're Trump went registrations went up massively. In the primaries, he was bringing people who hadn't voted in 20 years back into voting. That's what a very left candidate would do. Exact same thing. Tons of people who haven't voted for decades would sign up to vote. But they focus on the senator because that's, you know, that's, that's where the money is. That's where they can just run things and screw everybody over. And also there aren't that many Democrats and Republicans alike. What are they talking about? Like 25% of the population is is Republicans. 35% of the population is Democrats. What are you talking about? What do you guys know what math is? Like? There's a massive pain.
The man Yeah, it's
just, it's just a huge year. This shit me like, What are you talking about? It's just not reality. But all the Democrats are they're nodding their head. They go, yeah, there's not that many people. Yes, there are you've eliminated them because you do nothing for them. Give them a reason to vote for you, and they will vote for you. That's right.
Yeah, Nina, do you think I mean, again, you spend you spend time around these people? I know. Not a lot, not a lot of pleasant social time. But do you think they're aware of how many people don't vote who are out there who could be brought back in to vote? These write them off?
No, they do write them off. Because I mean, I hate to say this. When you are an incumbent, unless you are very conscious minded, and you care very much about the robustness of the representative democracy that we have, and you want people to vote. You really don't want as many people to vote. You just want the people you want it to be a narrow base of people voting. So no, they don't care that those people are not voting because the advantages to only have as many people, as you already know, are going to vote for you. And you want to eliminate the wildcards and some of the people who have not been voting because they feel they're displaced. They disillusion rightfully so about the system. No, you don't want them to vote. A lot of incumbents like low voter turnout. So you heard it. I mean, I don't know if the people listening to us are only hearing this for the first time. But it is it's true, it's rotten, but it's true. And then another part to that. They don't care. I mean, they really and I'm not saying that to be harsh. They just don't care the type of world that they live in. They don't care. Because the people that need government to work the most are more likely to people who will get so frustrated with it and they don't have a whole lot of time to pontificate or to watch masterclass because they work in five jobs. So they're not gonna vote. Do you think they don't go into the heads where these people are misunderstood? And when I say hoods, I mean that very globally. I mean, urban hoods, rule hoods, suburban hoods. Were big mama and big papa and everybody that lives in their community have been left behind. Nobody not going to get those people. They don't want them to vote.
No, they don't because that that means massive change. They don't want massive change.
Not at all. No, no. No, they don't want them to vote. They want the crowd to vote. Yeah. As stupid as that, so Trump is not in office, and we can go back to God damn brunch? Well, there's a whole bunch of people in this country about 140 million of them who can't go to damn brunch? Yeah.
Here's my question. I'd rather spend the last few minutes we have dressing this, then these two clowns winding down, because I think we sort of gotten as much juice from them as we can. How do you I mean, you've worked campaigns where you've where you've attempted and succeeded, to some extent doing this. But how there are that many people out there. How does how does anyone reach them? How do we reach them? How does it campaign mount a big enough insurgency against these two parties that are both vested to a great degree and keeping people from voting? And how do you how do you get those people to vote? I mean, we saw we saw Bernie making incredible headways. We've seen local elections. I mean, is it just focusing on local? Or do you think there's hope for like someone to run a presidential campaign as an insurgency again, in this country,
as I think it is, I mean, our campaign came very close both times COVID. You know, not only did COVID impact Trump, it impacted our ability to to compete as robustly as 2020. But when we go back to even just 2016 is really getting getting into the hearts of the people before you try to get into their head, like people have to feel something first. Before then you can start to talk to them from a cerebral point of view. And so there's nothing extraordinarily new that I'm about to say here. Other than it's the human touch, it's did I touch you on your heart, so then eventually, you will feel it in your head. And to do that, I have to be out there where you are. Now the the the arena has changed in that the courtyard is Vert is both virtual and in the physical streets, like the public square, if you will, we have two public squares, we do have the physical public square. And we also have the virtual public square. And we need a candidate who can navigate both of those. But definitely social media can never ever take the place of good old fashioned, I see you, I feel your vibe, I hear you. And that's what we were able to do very successfully in both 2016 and 2020. No other candidate got the types of crowds that we did on the Democratic side. Trump got it on the Republican side. Why? Because it was the same energy use for different purposes.
Do you think I mean, I always thought it was really interesting to the split in the black community fascinated me and no one you'll ever see liberals really talking about this seriously, because they're very uncomfortable, saying anything that could possibly be considered as critical of the African American community. And this is not critical. It's just the fact like older African Americans are more conservative. Yeah. And one of the things I saw a lot of and even at conversations in an interview, it makes perfect sense is, you know why why they'll go in for Joe Biden, it's like you're talking about a group that has been a particular on the receiving end of his awfulness over the years, why are they going for that? And there was, at least seem to me and in a lot of stuff that I heard there was a, at least a thread throughout some people in the community. That was like, Yeah, we know. And we, we know that that's how it goes, we don't expect when someone comes along, was actually telling us they're gonna do good. And they're new, and they're pushing something that sounds actually better, not just the same old thing. We are suspicious because we have heard it so many times before. And Joe Biden is the best we're gonna get because we've seen it before. And we'd rather go with him than Donald Trump who literally hangs out with Nazis and Klansmen and etc, etc. And, you know, it's cynicism, it's well earned the cynicism. You can't, you can't argue with with their conclusions really, are how they've gotten to that place. But how do you? Do you think there's a way to confront that? Or do we simply just wait for older voters to kind of forget my bluntness just sort of die off and trust that younger voters aren't going to be cynical?
You mean wait for mother nature to do what Mother Nature does? For all of us? I don't, I mean, how do you we can't afford to wait. We just cannot afford to wait. For me. I believe it is reminding the black community combined. So both elders and then your point about the youth and where they see that is why Senator Sanders was able to command so much of the you vote across racial identity is because the vision that he had for the future and they understood that that vision was going to impact them for the longest time, but let me go back to more seasoned black people. I believe that we got to tap it first acknowledge the conservative Islam within the black community, white, Neo liberals refuse to acknowledge the conservative, you might not like it, but that's just how it is. And you can understand historically why black people have had to be very conservative because of the types of things that the black community, generally speaking, had to endure. So don't act as though you don't understand that. That's number one. Number two is for people like me and other black leaders who are on the freedom fighting progressive left, is to remind black people, just the whole everybody seasoned in the middle, and the youngest, from whence we came, if you think about, and I've said this on the campaign trail, whether I'm in front of white audiences of black audiences, or the Rainbow Coalition, is that black people are the we're the genesis of progressivism. And what I mean by that is that it doesn't get more progressive than fighting for your very liberation, meaning that if black people go back to the root and the heart of the matter, towards our as it relates to our experience, our cultural generational experience in this country, our ancestors as a whole could not afford to go with the status quo, because we'd still be in chains. We didn't accept the status quo, which is why we get free air quotes. We didn't accept the status quo, which is how we got the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. And those are just I mean, I can give many, many other examples. So black folks have never accepted the status quo. So why should we accept it right now? Yeah, the status quo kills it kills. Yeah, fine body spirit. It kills.
Yeah, I guess just the fear that, you know, shaking up the status quo kills more seems to be
Yeah, because you know what, because we've been brainwashing then you got all these black gatekeepers like Jim Clyburn, you got all these dream killers, because they'd been a fit. But they don't care. Big Mama and big Papa's kids benefit as long as they benefit. So they go to black people and say, What's better than what we got here, you know, Malcolm X, that that speech that he gave up the difference between the house, the field, enslaved person and the house enslaved person, even though I disagree with his analysis slightly, but I understood where he was coming from. But you know, when he said it was better than what we got here. So that's what neoliberal black people go into the black communities say, What's better than what we have here? See the thing, the difference between 2016 and 2020? There are many of them, but I'm gonna make this point and just and is that when the pressure went in the face of Trump this usually what it is, black community in particular, was convinced that dreaming too big and reaching too high, was not what was going to get rid of Trump. We got to be reasonable. We got to be practical. Remember, you heard that a whole lot? You got to be
black and white liberals went for that, too. That's it. Yeah.
So that's what it was. So So now, I can't dream No, no further than being practical. What was practical in the moment, according to the neoliberal power structure, is beating Trump dammit, if you got to work five jobs that don't matter, beat Trump. If you don't have universal health care, don't matter. beat Trump. That's all that matters. So they were dream killers. Those people were dream killers.
It's a term that Dave and I both love from from the West Wing practical idealism.
Where two does not go together.
Yeah, and but But it's interesting how the, you know, to two different communities and the Democratic Party are both sort of suffering from versions of the same thing. And then, certainly, what the older black communities conservatism is used by white liberals to justify their conservatism. There it is. And that's that without taking the time to interrogate why that community feels the way it does. And so you end up in situations where, yeah, if you're critical of Jim Clyburn, you're, you know, did he moderate, so if it's not able to hear you, you're like, oh, you know, we marched with Martin Luther King, and I'm like, I don't know. Maybe he did that. Right. That was before I was born, man.
You think Do you think Martin Luther King wanted him to take millions of dollars from pharmaceutical companies?
Hello, they there it
is. But But But But David, you're not allowed to say that. You're not and it's it's I mean, but it really is. It's this sort of like bulletproof vest that that white liberals wear and I just feels to me like the way to knock them down and get them to wake up and say is to reach that older black community. I don't
mean the black community, we don't have to have a family meeting. I mean, I say that to, at some point, the black community cannot continue to be complicit in its demise. In our own demise. At some point, we have got to come together and say, this right here, is not working, that we understand the overt pneus of racism or or even just just Neo fascism on the Republican side, gotta check. But what about the other side, too, we don't have to accept, we don't have to continuously accept the lesser of the two evils. And that is what we all not just black people have been convinced of the American people, the fighting spirit of the American people has been stripped away. And we've been lulled into this acceptance of the lesser of the two evils. Take what just happened to the rail workers in another country, people will be taken to the streets right now. Not in this country make excuses for why some of the most powerful people on the planet couldn't deliver seven, lousy sick time days to people who are literally dying. Physically and mentally
important that if they stop working, our economy's good to crash and burn them off. Forget compassion. You don't want to be compassionate, great. Don't worry about acknowledge how important these
guys say. And if they sell essential, which they aren't, and give them what they want. Why do they have to make the sacrifice and the other side doesn't have to sacrifice a damn thing? In another country? People would be in the streets right now. So it's not just the black community. I just want to put that it's not just the last 100%
Yeah, I hope I was clear. Yeah. No, you
were I liked it. I just want to listen. I mean, because black people overwhelmingly, I mean, we we say we're not a monolith. We're not homogeneous here. But when it comes to voting, we are over 90% of Democrats get our vote. So I understand where you were coming from Josh. But I'm hoping that everybody, no matter what walk of life they are from, no matter how they identify, they have a working class. lens if they if they care about the least of these first, that they understand that we are on a collision course in this country. And it's not about who's left or right. It is about right and wrong. It is about ultra wealthy against the 98% of us, all of us. That's what this is about.
Yep. Was it oh my god, what was the guy hate to go out talking about her. But there was that Hillary had that line where she just scoffed at Bernie robbers, like he thinks breaking up the banks is going to cure racism.
Man, it wouldn't allow racism. But if you broke up Wells Fargo, when Obama was president, it could have done a lot less fucking harm to black homeowners and the absolutely fucking savage death by post companies. It could not have could it have cured racism? No, but it could have helped a lot of people. Come on,
geez, black people lost 50% of their wealth during that great recession. 50% Because they
were they were targeted by the banks, the ones that they let get away with it all. They were targeted. That's right. Would it have stopped racism man, the shit that comes out of that woman's mouth. I mean, how anybody saw her as a good candidate is absolutely amazing. mazing when she stood on that stage and said, what we need to do for student loans is reduce the interest rates like 1% my head almost exploded. What do you see as just No, not even slightly in touch with reality, doesn't care just sits there and says stuff those people that neoliberalism is a disease and it's killing us.
It is, you know, often say Neo fascism will kill us quick. kills us quickly. Liberalism kills us slowly. But the Dead is dead. You know, I had an elder she would always say doesn't matter if you meant to kill me on purpose or by accident. Dad is dead. Yeah, and that's what we're dealing with right now.
Well, that's the same thing with climate change is the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is the Republicans raise the sea level 25 feet and Democrats raised 20 feet Hello, graduations are still underwater.
um, that party in which you too anymore because I always leave the past. pay me. I thought a party was
there. There was one a couple of weeks ago we actually we all left here all revved up he got us all fired up. But yeah
it's always gonna be a bummer he had these two idiots talking he just like these guys are the problem if we had someone actually in this in this space next to them who was like here's what I would do like a different animal but what are you supposed to say to these? What are you supposed to say about what they've just said? Like it's just it's just bananas?
Yeah. And we hear that we are the people who sit through all of it. And if you brought me respect
you were successful. We did. And that's me. I mean, on the first episode, you said such beautiful this
is what we do. This is how we show our love. Love hurts. Our love is our love is paid. Senator Nina Turner, we are so knocked out that you did this. We are so amazed. You showed us something I think we knew you had. But now we really don't. And by making it all the way through this, I mean, you should do it. You should talk about resilience. You should do it. You should have a master class and resilience.
Oh, yeah. No, definitely. I would love to do that. But
thank you for doing this. This has been absolutely amazing. Where Where? Where are you people want it as though anyone who listens to us doesn't know where they can find you. But you've got a new show. Now you're where? Where do we go to for boy?
Yeah. Well, I really enjoy being with you. And Dave, it has been a rip roaring experience. I mean, if you've got to have, you know, take on misery, it's good to take it on with some people you respect. So I appreciate you both people can find me on that thing still call Twitter for now at Nina Turner. I'm on Facebook, at Nina Turner Instagram at Nina Turner. And as far as the show, the new show that debuted on October 17. On the TYT Network, the Young Turks Network, they can find me Monday through Friday, and all they have to do is type in into YouTube unbossed Nina Turner and it will pop right up. No fancy URLs or anything like that. Just go to YouTube, Nina Turner unbossed. And please subscribe, I need to get my subscribers up. And I need you and it's free to subscribe.
And then one question you don't have to answer because I know this is a weird thing to ask politicians that are sober. They're also loaded. But are you running for office again? Are we?
I don't know. Just I get that question all the time. And this is I honestly don't know. But I will tell you I am very heartened by the fact that so many people do want me to run again that they see my service in in the public sphere in that way through elected office being actively elected again, I call it they still want to see me do that and I hold that as a high honor I'm not sure if I will do it again or not. Most likely I would not run for congress again. And so you know the next step beyond that would be the US Senate or another high the high highest office right i mean it's only choices left.
Well if you need a couple of angry beaten down middle aged white screenwriters to not beat or get there. Thank you so much. This has been incredibly educational and we'll be taking another little break before we're back with our next audit. But we're gonna do everything we can to make sure it comes close at least to living up to the standards we've set with this one so thank you for listening to us
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