Let's all go to the lobby. Let's all go to the lobby. Let's all go to the lobby to get ourselves a treat.
Hello and welcome to movies versus capitalism and anti capitalist movie podcasts. I'm Rifka Rivera.
And I'm Frank Capello.
Hey Frank. What's up?
Oh, not much. Just losing hours and hours and hours of my life. I shouldn't say losing. I'm giving hours of my life to the new Legend of Zelda video game for the Nintendo Switch. Yes. Have you heard about this at all?
I've heard of it. I didn't realize it was like, there. There was a moment they catch me up. What's going oh,
yeah, it's it's a moment well, so the Legend of Zelda series is one of the oldest video game franchises it's one of the best video game franchises. For the Nintendo system. This is their new game. It's been six years since the last one came out. And the games are just absolutely wonderful, magical, so much fun. I am no longer an avid gamer. I used to be like, when I was a kid I had you know, like the Nintendo systems. I don't really play video games anymore. But I do play every Legend of Zelda game. Like they are very important to me.
What about it? What, why?
It's very simple, lovely storytelling to begin with, you know, it's like the hero. You know, you're on a quest, you're on a journey. But the world like this is the second in this series that they've done since the last game Breath of the Wild, which is an open world game. So basically, you can go anywhere, you could do anything you want. And part of the powers you're given in these games is the built the ability to like manipulate time and space. You can like build shit, you can like, you can travel through time you can like manipulate the space around you. It's just very inventive, creative fun. Like you could play this game for hours and hours and not actually play the campaign of the game and just be like, you know, messing around in the world. It's just it's so much fun. I probably logged like 20 plus hours so far.
Wow. Well, I don't play video games, but I feel like my like if I'm losing sleep. I had friends I know it was never in the Vanderpump Rules reality show universe but I had friends who were like to me it was just like I it just to me that feels like vaping or like picking up nicotine or some I was just like I had a bit I was just like, that's the escapism that I'll go there's some shows I can't like I can't do Kardashians I'm too I just can't do it. It makes me too nauseous. But I did there was just a lot happening in the Vanderpump Rules universe and I knew all the drama and it you know, I gotta say this there was the way in which they edit the storytelling of their like it's they just have access to I think this this is their 10th season so they have access to so much footage and I just appreciate as an editor how the like, reference something then cut to that scene from like, 2014 they'll be like you said this, and then they'll cut the footage of the person saying it in 2014 It's pretty remarkable. Yeah, there was like a whole lot it was called scandal vol. Tom Sandoval scandal. She saw
some of this online Yeah, it's it crossed a crossed into the mainstream. Somehow it did
cross into the mainstream. It was like a big, it was a big thing. It is just I guess what I recognize is like, in the matrix of like, real, like that kind of television that you can just like pick up and not put you just like it does. Come pop into your brain when you're like, Wait, I don't, I don't want to think about that. I that was for then. And like, I don't know, just in my dreams or like during the day where I'm like, why am I why am I thinking about this person? It's so weird. So that's myself. That's my Legends of Zelda for you.
That's, that's the narrative you have lost yourself and right now. Exactly.
And it's a time to lose ourselves. Because there's a lot there's I mean, not to lose ourselves. But it's tempting.
It's tempting. And there might be more reality TV in our futures because this is my segue, the writer's strike still ongoing. The writers have been striking for I think, going on for weeks now. And it looks like some of the other performer or some of the other entertainment guilds are might also be striking. So what's what's happening with with sag, because I my dues have lapsed, I have not paid my dues and a couple of years. not kept up.
I am still a dues paying sag member. And so it was one of the more exciting things to do other than you know, you go onto your sag website if you're looking for we have a residuals portal, so you'll sometimes go on and be like, do I have any money coming in? And of course that's part of the reason to strike is because there's less and less residual payment, even though your work might still be made. Making money. So they just put out a sag. Authorization to strike. So I voted yes. Like, yes, you're authorized to strike on behalf of my membership as like. And so this that's the step before actually striking it. So before WG went on WGA went on strike, all the writers in that guild had to vote yes or no to authorize that strike. So it's a it's an exciting point of solidarity. I think it's really important, I think it would be, you know, the best thing that could happen right now would be for the directors to go on strike through, you know, all the unions to go on strike at one. So it's really exciting. And I don't think I've ever I don't think I mean, sag has never gotten on strike. So
I'm looking it up. It looks like the commercial actors went on strike in 2000. So that might have been pre the sag AFTRA merger. So maybe that was just let's totally, just AFTRA and I'm looking back through the history. It looks like there's 1952 Oh, no way we wait 1986 for 14 hours. Okay. So it looks like 1952 was maybe the last and forgive me if this isn't completely accurate. But that was maybe the last like meaningful actor strike other than the 2000 commercial actors strike?
Yeah, definitely not the way that WGA does. WGA has set the precedent for really doing the thing. And so it's exciting. You know, this is a time of solidarity, for sure.
You know, someone explained it to me at one point, and this is maybe a bit reductive, but they they said, This is how the guilds work in Hollywood, the Directors Guild, they don't need to go on strike, because they are the directors, they get everything they want in negotiations, the Writers Guild will go on strike, they have go on strike, they regularly go on strike, because their work is taken for granted. And they have the collective power to do so the actors never go on strike, because actors just like, take whatever the fuck is given to them and just are like, Thank you, sir. May I have another because, you know, like being an actor is, it seems like a glamorous thing, but it in a lot of ways actors are treated as sort of the most expendable commodity in the entertainment industry.
Absolutely. And it's really unfortunate, because there's this idea that I think it's been I think it's the same for writers too. But there's this idea around the arts that like part of your payment is the joy of doing the thing that like and you get that constantly like, Oh, we're not going to pay you but you'll get visibility,
you're gonna get exposure,
you'll get exposure, like exposure does not pay anyone's fucking bills. Exposure is not a valuable commodity. You know, maybe when you're like, No, it's not. I think if you don't have money to pay actors, you don't have money to make your show. If you don't have money to pay the artists, you don't have money to do it. It's different. I think I'm not saying you can't always I'm not they're not other ways around. But I think it's very different if it's a group of people who are coming together, creating something collectively like there's ways to work around that I'm not saying money has to be the only means of exchange but it just blows my mind constantly where there's this it's almost like passing down the trauma where even people where I'm like, Wait, what are you asking me to do? You know, I just think I can't if I'm doing a project it's like I feel like you have to pay the actors any pay everyone or you can't do it.
Well there's also such a disconnect between the SAT historically the sag leadership and the sag rank and file members because unlike the WGA, or the DGA, you know, sag has a ton of members who just are not working, they are not working, they have not made money. So you're they're paying their dues, but they're paying their dues and then in order to get elevated to a leadership position within sag usually that means you have to be like a somewhat well known actor. And if you are a somewhat well known actor, you're now in a different class, above the people above all of the nonworking struggling actors who are the rank and file members so a lot of thrash if it isn't actually governing in a way that has its members interest best interests at heart I know I know the last time sag voted on contracts. They really fucking shift everybody they like I you know, I people lost their health insurance because the minimums got raised. They didn't you know, like they basically caved on a lot of things that really hurt the rank and file so correct. So it'd be it would be very exciting and well overdue for you know, for maybe a little bit more of a radical militant sag leadership to actually, you know, lead paying for
everyone's reference, like our sag President currently is. The nanny is Fred Drescher.
And look I've talked about the nanny on the show before I grew up with the nanny.
Oh, are you kidding?
I absolutely love the nanny. But yeah, and I think a little I think she was like the Conservative candidate the last time there was a an election for leadership. I mean, Ronald Reagan was the president of sag, you know, like that is Oh my The history of sag. We love unions we love a guild we always solidarity but that's not to say that they don't have their own problems and issues and that leadership is very important and that you need constant. You need constant participation by the membership otherwise, you know, like any institution, a guild or a union can they can become entrenched in a different kind of class position. So be very excited to see what happens.
And the last thing that happened this this was a big week, so it was a big week because we're coming down to the wire on like the the end of succession. One of my favorite shows, I know one of your favorite shows. It blows my mind when I find people who have not been watching it and I'm jealous because they'll get to just sit down and binge it. But we just watched the election episode.
Yes and spoilers. We're going to do spoilers so if you if you haven't watched on it, just you know, fast forward probably five, six minutes. Get the election episode. What a fucking wild ride. What were your what were your big takeaways?
Um, yeah, it was just like a little. They do the reality of the things so well, like I felt it was very like, like the actually my favorite episodes so far this season was that I guess everyone's I think there was a consensus that Logan Roy's death was phenomenal. Just because they just they get that thing that is so often missed. Like they're just the way things happen in real time. And
yeah, they really captured what it feels like when a person dies. Yeah. And
similarly, I think they captured what it feels like when we all had something die drastically in 2016. Like there was like a similar ability to get that sort of like, we're even as the audience, you're like, are they doing this? You're like, oh, wait, loners not dying in this episode? Is he? Because that would be that wouldn't happen like this, it would happen in like a big grand finale kind of way. And it's just like happening. I felt like a reminder of the way the shock of that day of 2016 it was just Yeah, so a little stunning and triggering Dare I say?
Thank you. Thank you very well. Good. I found it really interesting that a lot of the discourse I was hearing were people saying kind of what you're saying like, Oh, this gave me big time. 2016 vibes. And it did not for me it be mainly because the Republican candidate character in question, Jared BankIn, played by Justin Kirk's so fucking chilling. is not at all like Donald Trump. Right? Right. Right. He is. This is this is the sophisticated fascist is what this guy is. And while I understand why people felt the 2016 parallels, what I was feeling was, oh, this is the thing that could happen in the future. Like, this is the cat. This is the actual for 2020s when we're 2028, whatever. But like, the actual the competent fascist, the sophisticated fascist, the intellectual fascist, that is so much scarier to me than Donald Trump, who is like the moronic fascist, the fucking bumbling fascist. Not to say that Trump isn't what Trump represents isn't scary. His election wasn't terrifying. That's all true. But this episode was more so for me. I was like, damn, this is like this was Jesse Armstrong, who is a I believe a vocal socialist. This was him being like, no, no, no, America. This could get worse for you. This isn't just this wasn't just an anomalous 2016 election. How could this happen? Where did this guy come from? Like, this is the path that you're on now. And this is where you could arrive in the future. That was my kind of big takeaway that and that Shiv represented the Democratic Party. Yeah, I was just gonna say yeah, which is I thought was perfect. And I'm sure a lot of people I'm sure a lot of liberal viewers missed that. They were like Schiff is the good one. It's like no, no, Shiva is also using her outsized power and influence to try to sway a national election in her favor. Maybe her guy is like a little less fascist at than the other guy. But she's still this is still fucking a huge problem that she has this controller this way at all and that's the Democratic Party
Yeah, I guess you're right because I there was a it's kind of weird that like there was part of me that's like caught up really they're not just gonna like Carter Roy's not gonna win and they're gonna like push it to this like, I was like really hoping for that which is, you know, just me anyone else. But that maybe would have been like, that would have been the like, very on the nose Trump.
Yeah version,
you know, and I think you're right that there was like a, they, they must have known that we were obviously somewhat attached to that. That outcome even though obviously for the real world, it's not great. But like, I was like, I want Connor really know when that that was really smart that was much more chilling that Connor didn't and it was much more devastating and creepy. I don't and I'm really like I have Where are we going to go? Like, what more can go down? Like why I'm very excited to be like, What the fuck is gonna happen in these next two episodes?
Yeah, I couldn't tell you. I have no idea. That's one of my favorite this show is so surprising. It's like, yeah, that's the best gonna miss it so much. Yeah. All right, well, we should get to our Convo about parasite a very good one. I really loved re listening to this as I was editing it. But first want to let our listeners know that this podcast is brought to you buy the lever, a reader supported investigative news outlet, which reports on the people and corporations manipulating the levers of power in our society. And you can go to lever news.com to find all of their original reporting.
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take a quick break. We'll be right back with our conversation about parasite with Jessica Burbank. All right, we are now joined by Jessica Burbank. Jessica does political commentary for the TYT Network more perfect union and rising isn't rising or the rising, rising on the Hill rising on the hill. Gotcha. Jessica Burbank, welcome to movies versus capitalism.
It is great to be here. Thank you so much for having me on.
Absolutely. So a little bit of background for the audience. Just you and I met on the website tick tock.com. You are in my opinion, I You're one of the best leftist creators commentators on there. You have such a wide breadth of knowledge you have like actual you have like a degree in economics is that that's correct. Data driven
public policy, which is it basically ends up being economics.
Yeah. Well, you infuse all of that with like a really great sense of humor and making really amazing, digestible content. So I've always been a big admirer of yours. So like, really quickly, what, what got you into this space? What's like, what's a little bit of your background? And how did it How have you found yourself here now recording this podcast with us?
Wow, thank you so much. That's very kind. I was one of those people that was a field organizer, like getting people in the streets and knocking doors. At first, it was like, Hey, we're giving so much money to these, you know, contractors like Lockheed Martin and stuff for these foreign conflicts that like, Do we really have any business being in it was trying to get, you know, lower defense budgets, and more public spending going to foreign aid, if we cared a lot about, you know, global threats. People didn't really care about it, when I would call them we're trying to talk to them or be like, Oh, we have to call Congress about this. And I was like, wow, like, we really have no power as organizers. And I was working as a bartender. I was like, well, maybe I'll go to graduate school. And that'll solve this problem for me, which I really wouldn't recommend. It's by no means a solution. But I learned a lot. And as someone who grew up working class, first person, my family to go to college, once I got all that information, I was like, I have to tell everybody, the way this thing is running. I was like, I'm going to tell everyone. And then immediately afterwards, I took a job just as a field organizer knocking doors for like, $27,000 a year on the Bernie campaign and my friends taking jobs in DC. And at McKinsey, we're like, you're insane. But it was totally worth it. And then the pandemic hit, I couldn't do anything in person anymore. So I was like, oh, let's just try this tick tock thing. And I like to have fun. I like to have a good time. So I did it as a skit talking about government spending in money. And the skit which was like the second Tiktok ever posted got 100,000 views and I was like, Oh, this is easy. Not easy, but it is fun. And I've kind of stuck to it.
That's inspiring. Thank you. So just you chose for us to watch one of my favorites, which I haven't watched since seeing it originally. So I was so happy to get a chance to revisit this parasite, directed by Bong Joon Ho written by Bong Joon Ho and Han Jin Hwan, starring Song Kang Ho Mr. Kim Jong Hi Jane Mrs. Kim, Choi Woo Sikh ki woo Park. So DOM Qi, Zhang Li Sunni Kuhn, Mr. Park and Chou Yu Jiang, Mrs. Park. The budget of this film was 11 point 4 million it grossed almost 263 million worldwide. And this was the first South Korean film to win the Palme d'Or at Cannes Film Festival, nominated for six Academy Awards and won for for international feature Original Screenplay Director and Best Picture and this was the first non English language film to win Best Picture so record setting and this film is a South Korean black comedy slash thriller that follows a poor working class family the Kim's who schemed to become employed by an upper class extremely wealthy family, the parks, the Kim slowly infiltrate the household by posing as an English tutor and art teacher, a driver and a housekeeper. Everything is going great until they discover the former housekeepers husband living in the basement. Their covers blown and the drama unfolds into violent and deadly chaos during a birthday party for the parks young son got
such we'll get into this. It's a perfect movie. A little historical context for when this film came out. So this is 2019 Donald Trump is the president of the United States. In February he holds a summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong goon in Vietnam. In March the 2019 college admissions bribery scandal becomes public which implicates over 50 people including actresses Felicity Huffman and Lori Loughlin. Also in March, Robert Muller turns in his report on his nearly two year investigation on the Trump campaign whether or not they conspired with Russia to interfere in the 2016 election. On July 6, Jeffrey Epstein is arrested on federal charges of sex trafficking and on August 10, he's found dead in his jail cell in Manhattan. In September, Nancy Pelosi announces the start of formal impeachment inquiry into Donald Trump after his quote, perfect phone call with Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky. And in December, we get word of the first infections of COVID 19. In Wuhan, China,
that year wasn't crazy enough,
like Jesus Christ, what a year,
we're reading it like history now, right.
And there were so many more interested reading these events, I was like, I cut like 60% of these. And just a little additional context, because this is a South Korean film. A little bit of information about South Korea at this time, wealth inequality and the poverty gap index have been increasing in South Korea for a decade, though not as bad as the United States. And to simplify it, if South Korea was a country of 100, people had a wealth pie with 100 slices, the richest person would get 25 slices of that pie all to themselves, while the poorest 50 People would have to split two slices of pie amongst them. So this is the level of wealth inequality that is happening in South Korea when this movie is written and produced and made, which contributes a lot to why this story was told. So just the first thing we like to do to start this conversation is ask our guest, why did you choose this movie for us to watch?
It's a very personal question. It really is. This movie is so special to me, I don't watch a lot of movies. And I was in such a weird time in my life. I'm not going to tell you everything, but I'll paint a little bit of the picture. So I had been dating this guy that I met at Brown where I went to graduate school who said, you know, oh, I also came from a low income family like you. And it was also very hard for me to get into school. You know, my mother was a refugee. My father's Jewish, you know, we had a hard time growing up, they're both teachers. And then it comes out that they're actually professors at some pretty big universities, and that they live in a very wealthy suburb. And I'm like, something's not quite adding up. So the pandemic hits, and we want to stay together, but we had been working on campaigns and had no place to live. So now I'm staying in his very wealthy family's basement with him. And, you know, we're sitting around the dinner table. His father says some really disparaging things about working class people and afterwards I'm like, does he know that how I grew up that that's my family. I'm like, also like you said, you were low income like what's going on? You live in this big house in this wealthy suburb like, can you just tell me what's happening? And you know, it comes out that the grandfather has million dollars bought the house, he actually comes from money went to some of the best schools and it was it was a lie. And so I'm like processing this, like, why would someone I love lie to me about you know, the most important things in their life. And so one night we all decide to watch parasite together. Oh my god, I'm just watching it like grouping the couch. And at the end of the movie, the mom who's a sociologist goes, well, that's that's exactly what it's like in, in South Korea. And I was like, that's what it's like here. And then within a few minutes says, Well, we have to tidy up because the cleaners are coming in the morning. Oh, without missing a beat. Wow. And it's it was so this movie just like means so much to me. It helped me get through such a weird time. And I recently watched it again. So I was like, we've got to do parasite. Wow, that is That's crazy.
That's crazy. And I'm so sorry. I'm sorry, you have to sit through that. But also like that in itself is like its own that can be like its own meta parasite like, Whoa,
it's a good story now very upsetting, but also not not surprising, surprising that, you know, there's a level you need to embrace a level of obliviousness. Once you reach that higher strata that higher socio economic strata because if you don't, then you're just faced with like, the constant contradictions of your lifestyle and like day in, day out, so you almost have to force some level of like, MIT, whether it's manufactured or not, but like some level of ignorance, just to be like, that was an interesting movie. Boop, boop, boop boo boo going on with my life, like, not does not inform my life or perspective whatsoever.
Yeah, and just how much of what you eat sounds like you were experiencing with those parents was mimicking so much of the behavior of the parks in this film, and how they maintain that level of, you know, these moments of like, Oh, we're paying you a lot more like we're good, rich people. We're doing the good rich people things. And like that utter. Okay, but I'm gonna just like now call the person to clean her house and also lie about being in a different class than I actually am. Let's get into this movie. So on your rewatch, because there's so much here and I'm so excited about like, especially about the storytelling in this film, some films, I feel like we talk a lot about the context and the outside in this, it's just like, all in there. What were your first Yeah, what was your first sort of like? I guess just you share that it's very personal. And you have this revisit are there when you rewatched it? Were you surprised by anything on a rewatch did anything particularly stand out?
I think for me, I was thinking a lot about what the word parasite means in this context, because I think so many people would watch this movie, like I did the first time around and think well, of course, the word parasite is meant to describe the people living in the basement who are ill getting paid by these people, they're kind of, you know, and trenched themselves, in these people's lives quite physically, but also like, we're gonna lie and say, Oh, of course, I have a background doing this particular skill or whatever we get the whole family jumps in there. It feels like a parasite kind of settling in. But then when you look at these mansions compared to how the majority of people are living, it's pretty obvious that the rich folks are the parasite. And that was just like, more visceral for me through through the second watch. And then I also tried to have empathy for the parks. Like maybe they're just making the best decisions they can with the information they have. But as someone who grew up in a neighborhood of people who are construction workers, painters, bookkeepers, no one has college degrees, a lot of immigrants, it's like, I have no idea what that mindset could possibly be like, like, how could you ignore how we live? And I've realized more and more that some people are just like, growing up with an idea that some people are worthless, and it's so ingrained in their mentality and they're so okay with it. And that's, that's really wild to me. What about you? Well, I know you love this movie, too.
Both of those things that you mentioned, really spoke to me. I love thinking of I mean, obviously, the title is parasite and in this rewatch, I also I remember, you know, obviously seeing it the first time being like this is so scathing of them giving us such a clear depiction of like, class systems and capitalism, and it really goes there but what I was surprised on my rewatch to find is that I didn't remember it being such a hopeful movie like that was might be impact this time that I actually found like it was this movie about solidarity really, and even though that doesn't happen, it almost does at like two crucial points and my understanding of parasites This time around with actually in the sense of like, if I take away how I think about or how we're sort of conditioned to think about parasite is like a bad thing, you know, because it's taking but that it's like an there's this interdependent system sort of what you're speaking to, like everybody in this structure is a parasite. So they're living in this interdependent system as well like, because capitalism is forcing them to and not in a good not in a not in a way that's healthy, but like they're already doing this interdependent thing like we can all work together. So that is their, you know, so there was the first moment is when Moon Guang, you who is the original, the old housekeeper, that they sort of they put peaches on and they get her ill and she gets out. And she, we, it ends up being revealed that her husband has been staying in this basement of the house where she had sort of inherit been working for a very, very long time. And we get the backstory that the reason he's there is because he had had a Taiwanese bake shop, I believe that didn't wasn't working. And he had to go into debt for that. So. So we have that, which again, I think is so important, because most filmmakers will not give you that context. And without that kind of context, it's so easy to go to our default, which is, well, that's a bad lazy human being. And I think that's just where the brain goes when you're not given, like the nuanced reality of humanity. And so, throughout this film, we're constantly given the context of the capital of capitalism. So you're like, that's not because of who he is. That's because he had no other choice. And in that moment, she's like, when they find them in the basement, she says, you know, sis, we, she calls her sis, and she's like, as fellow members of the needy, please, like, we can help each other out. And you have this moment where you're like, Oh, they're gonna, they're gonna rally together and maybe take this down. And it doesn't happen. And we understand why it doesn't happen. Like we understand. It's not because they're bad people. And then it happens again, where the next morning, you know, they were also very drunk, because they had stayed the night there. It's also very fun, like living, you know, cars playing this rich life like drinking. So they were really drunk that night before the next morning, they come back and they're like, you know, that was a little rowdy. Let's give them food. Let's like you get this sense that again, they're like, maybe they'll come together, but it's too late, the damage has been done. So that for me was really jarring this time around. Whereas like, this is actually a movie about like, our potential. And if we wake up to it, maybe we won't miss it. So that was sort of my epiphany this time around. What about you, Frank?
Well, first of all, just when you suggested this movie, I was like, oh, parasite, I remember seeing in 2019 being extremely impressed by it. It was right around the time where my political development was going was moving farther and farther left. So I started understanding these themes about class and wealth and the inequality that lies there in what he suggested and I was like, oh, man, parasite, it's such a heavy movie. And I was like, so pleasantly surprised in this rewatchable like, No, this is like a very entertaining like fast paced, upbeat for the most part film so like, just on its audit space, this is a perfect movie. Like it's the the narrative structure, the performances the direction, it moves so effortlessly, and I was in I was like, so enraptured the entire time. I completely agree with everything both of you said about the way that it depicts the parks and their disparaging opinions and views of poor working class people and how gross that is. And, man, I remember one time I was arguing with someone in my family about we were arguing about fast food workers and I flat out was just like, Do you believe that someone who works what we consider a full time job at a fast food restaurant deserves the income to support a family and my family member was like, no, they shouldn't. And I was like, That is such horseshit. That is such fucking horseshit. Because you agree that it's you like fast food, right? You agree that it's unnecessary business people, we enjoy doing it. So if it's an unnecessary business and the people who work there should be able to live a life of dignity and respect and afford their basic necessities so like, it nails this, and then Rivka to speak to what you were saying. It humanizes all of the like the working class, the Kim's and the housekeeper and her husband. It does such a great job at humanizing every aspect of them. One of the touches that I loved is, you know, when when we meet the cams in their basement, you know, it's like they said, it sets up the desperation of their conditions perfectly like they're all there, they're climbing on top of each other to try to find the Wi Fi. You know, they're all folding pizza boxes for money. They allow the fumigator to basically poison them so that they can get free extermination. And, but a really small detail they show Mrs. Kim's metal from when she used to do hammer throw, which, which I thought, yeah, which I thought was such an important date because it just telling you, people who live in poverty, they're not they're not worthless people and they have they had a whole life and they had moments of potential great heights. And just because you know, a person might have found themselves in poverty at this point in their life doesn't mean that they're, that they are inherently a worthless person. It just
seems so obvious when you say it, Frank. But I just think it's startling how much storytelling misses that point. Just like misses that like where you're just like, Oh, you didn't think to give it and they're like, well, we couldn't give the context. So we didn't you know, we just so yes, I just I agree with you. But I it's amazing how many stories just don't do it
or oversimplify the way that poverty is depicted in film and television. This movie is like a parable about class antagonisms. And I thought it kind of did such a good job at representing that, you know, obviously, like the parks are the wealthy family, the kins or the working class family. But then they have this moment of almost solidarity, but then they end up tribalism themselves against the housekeeper and her husband, which is a very common thing that will happen within working class communities. You know, it's, you know, they keep us divided. And it's more common for the working class to fight amongst themselves than to really find that solidarity and to fight against the ruling class. So just how did you feel about like, the split the class antagonism aspect of this film?
Yeah, I'm reflecting back on the original person who was living in the basement whose name I don't remember, it's hard to remember names when it's subtitles, but um, who was in debt and warships Mr. Park, right? He's kind of praise to Mr. Park hits his head against the wall. And so a whole thing. It's almost like, all right, the Kim family is pitted against the original housekeeper who's allergic to peaches, and her spouse. And that's almost like, okay, we're competing for resources. But it's also like, we have this very different view of our relationship to the parks and your relationship to the parks and maybe your your guy's idea of what the parks are means we can't work together to fight against them. And so I thought that was really interesting. And I can draw a lot of parallels between that kind of thinking and like the progressive movement in the United States, how there are so many people who see the working class, even if they grew up working class, or they really believe in wealth redistribution, and they believe in equal opportunity, they still have disdain towards working class people, or maybe people who are like, no, if we work really hard, we'll do well, like capitalism is fine. And it's just this disdain of the ignorance. And so it's people who really are like, well, I've got it figured out. And so of course, I can't work with these other people. It's like, No, those are precisely the people that I think of Plato's Allegory of the Cave that we've got to bring out of this cave. And, and I guess it kind of as a cave, because he's on the ground, but really drag him out and be like, hey, like, this is how it is we're being oppressed, we've got to set things right. But because we see ourselves as not only in competition from people, we have a, an aligned cause with, but we just see them as if they're too far gone. We'll never convince them. And I don't really want to hang out with people like that. It's really causing so much division and what could be a unified movement. And so I thought, the microcosm and the movement movie did a really good job depicting that.
Yes, absolutely. And just and how heartbreaking it is that even until his death as he looks up at Mr. Park, who's about to stab him, and he says respect and Mr. Park, doesn't he? He's like, Do I know you? I mean, brilliant, and chilling. It's giving
It's giving all of it. Even in that context, what I loved about that, like, given all of that, had there not been enough detail, and backstory and understanding of like, the context that these characters are living in, it would have been so easy to judge that character is like, he's crazy. You know, and I think what was so brilliant is like, it was really hard to judge any of these characters in that way for me, because you understood like, Oh, if I was in that position, I don't know that I could fully like I see the moments where I could do something differently, but you also can empathize and relate to like, that is so extremely hard they need they need to do this together. That was sort of like my feeling. Well, they also
they show another way that the Kim's are all humanized in that they are pretty regularly displaying empathy towards everyone else, including the you know, I think it's like somewhere where some around when they all are first hired by the parks. I forget who says it someone says, you know, like Mrs. Park. She's very nice. She's very nice for a rich person. And then someone else is like, well, she's nice because she is rich. And the line that they say is Oh, they
say that when they're drinking. Yeah, like on the couch drinking and they're having this great conversation. Yeah,
yes. And then I think it's, Mrs. Camus says money is an iron and all the creases get ironed out. So they even have like, a little bit of empathy for the parks who up until this point, I guess they've just been their employers, and for the most part have been nice, but it's not until it's not until the smell comes in. Which is such again, this movie is fucking perfect. And like, all of the metaphors are, like a little on the nose, but it's like executed in such a perfect way where you don't even mind it. So not even a
metaphor. No, it's just gonna be like, it's like, that's not even it's just so real. Like the smell is not a metaphor. It's like that's real
pun intended with on the nose there, Frank.
I hadn't been but now that you mentioned it, the puns just that come out naturally. But yeah, it's it's when it's when the the family the park family starts to realize that all of the cams share the same smell. And this becomes a recurring theme of the smell. And then I think at one point, Mr. Park says it's the kind of smell you would smell on the subway. And I think Mrs. Park is like, I haven't been on the subway in ages. But I just thought it was such a brutal observation and characterization of these people. And it also ends up like playing out throughout the entire film and ends up being the catalyst for Mr. Kim stabbing Mr. Park at the end. Yeah, I guess we just jumped to the to the ending part because the ending the the whole way that the birthday party unfolds, there's so much that happens there. I'm curious what boat like what do you think it was that really drives Mr. Kim to kill Mr. Park? In the end?
It's such a good question. I mean, when they're talking behind that bush, it's almost like you can watch Mr. Kim's face reached the breaking point where he's like, You know what, like, fuck this guy. It's like he's made to choose between his family's lives and Mr. Parks family's lives. And he was like, You're out of your mind, if you think I'm sacrificing literally everything for you. And I think you can see Mr. Cam react really negatively every time This smell is discussed. But there's some kind of right because he was accidentally eavesdropping when they were talking about the bad smell. And so to be talked about in that way, I'm sure he had like a little seed of disdain. But everything reached a boiling point, I think just before, and I think it had been building for a while, but he was like, You know what, I hate this man. Now, to put me in that position is ridiculous. And I can kind of, like relate to that sentiment of, oh, these people, you know, they smell and they're this and they're back. Because like growing up and then working in the service industry. It's so clear where the lines are drawn between the people that are intended to serve those who have resources and who have money and who can afford to go to nice restaurants and all of that stuff. And just feeling like you're the help like is this all I'm on Earth for is just to be of service to these rich people. And it's like, something's wrong with that, fundamentally, and I think a lot about who are the kind of people that are really in tune with that and who's not. And I think the people that are entirely ignorant of how our society is set up with this inequity baked in the people that are just like, Yeah, this is how it is, I'm okay with it. That's a terribly antisocial attitude. I've decided, most people, I think, have this natural inclination of like, we're supposed to take care of each other and work together. That's what's going to lead to human beings continuing to survive on that planet, it's, in fact necessary for us to cooperate to address these problems. So the people who don't have a sense of that, it's almost like they haven't necessarily evolved as they need to, for us to continue to survive. And when you tie that in with, you know, some study of anthropology, it is the case that every evolution of the homo sapiens killed the previous evolution and I'm not preaching any kind of eugenics I'm just saying there could have been something primal there that like this person, has terribly antisocial views. They don't even have empathy for me. My family's getting hurt. It was just like, what kind of a person is this? And there's so much anger personally between the two of them.
Yeah, I, I love the smell as a device for all the reasons that you both just said. And it's so it's so visceral like what it does for us as an audience member to think about. And I'm thinking about, like, as a New Yorker, I think that's it's like one of those things that we don't talk about is like the different smells of people. And then this idea that like, we all wear deodorant to, like, cover how we smell. And it's part of just like this repression in society of like, your humanity should be covered up. And we've all decided like, this is what smells good, even though we know, throughout our history as a species, like that's, I'm sure what's been in fad for like, what smells good has changed. But it's another way that we decide who you know, classify people and then particularly like that build for his character, which was so beautiful and fascinating. I think the first time he hears it's what yeah, when he's eavesdropping under the table, you know, he's in a close up in frame and he's just like, slowly pulls up his shirt to smell it. And the way he crafts that build, like as it moves on, I think like the last like one of the straws was that he's taking her around for you know, the child's birthday party and Mrs. Park is in the back with her feet up in his face, which I'm sure her feet smell
one of our greatest modern memes that exact
Yeah, you're not shot exactly. And her smelling him and lowering the weight the window, which is interesting, because she didn't smell him. But you know, it's like all of a sudden, I think when someone says to says something smells bad, also like how that catches on. But just as a New Yorker, I'm thinking like, you know, just how when you're like, part of the thing I love being in big cities or in proximity with lots of you just it's like a joy to get to smell all different kinds of smells, and be around all different. Like, why would you want to just have one smell of like, this? Is it like this scent? It's like part of what makes us living amazing. You know, it's like, taste. It's like not that I want to go see for x y when I'm like, going smell all kinds of things. But you know what I'm saying like smell is underrated, as I said,
because on the subway sniffing people.
This explains so much as to why you're just constantly Why am I was like, Can I smell your drive by sniffing people? Yeah. Smiling because I know exactly what you're talking about. And I love summer in New York so much, because we're all just like sweaty, gross animals. And just we like have to just be out in these places. You can't afford an Uber or Lyft. Everywhere you're riding the subway, you're walking around the street. It's just like, you get to this point where everyone is just feeling go to a bar, you're like, you're sweaty and gross. You're sweaty and gross. We all smell bad. We are all here. We are all humans. It's like it's the NFL. I
like your smell like we're vibing I'm attracted to you. Yes.
This is what the elites are missing out on
saying, Do you know what was a wild moment that I didn't remember from my first watch, but was when the cameras are hiding under the coffee table and the parks are the Mr. or Mrs. Parker on the couch, and they start having sex and then their kink is to pretend that they are poor that they have drug problems. That was a really very well,
let me tell you if you're gonna role play like No,
do it. act the part. Donate your wealth. No, that
was yeah, that was a great moment. I wanted to ask about this moment, because it was sort of this is also in the progression of I think you pronounce that key type the Mr. Kim, the father's progression, this is like after that after their, they make it out from under the table. And they go home and their home is flooded from the torrential rain, and they end up in like a relief center. It's a gymnasium. And he's lying next to his son who is holding on to the rock like the rock from the prophetic rock from the beginning. And he says this whole thing with his hand just like with his arm covering his eyes. So just so simply, but his arm is covering his eyes and he says you know what kind of plan never fails? No plan at all. No plan. You know why? If you make a plan, life never works out that way. With no plan, nothing can go wrong. And if something spins out of control, it doesn't matter whether you kill someone or betray your country. None of it fucking matters. And I'm just curious what you're I still don't know fully how I felt about that. Like what that moment or that message was, but it was so pivotal. And so moving. So I'm curious what you thought of that moment.
Yeah, it the rock thing as well. Right? Yeah, this idea of we have these tokens and icons and things that we just want to believe in something because materially things aren't working out. Like we need some kind of hope. And I remember so many times throughout my life being like, yep, you know, I'm always going to be stuck. doing this thing that I hate, like, nothing's gonna get better bad things always happen and being like, you know what, maybe I never had a plan at all. Maybe I'm just vibing, maybe I don't care what happens next. It's like a convenient story to tell yourself, when you're living in a world that's not made for you to succeed. So I kind of took it as a cope. Or it could just be a beautiful way to live your life, right? I'll take what comes to me, I'll go where the wind blows. And I'm happy no matter where that is, like, that's very beautiful and very zen. It could also be a cope. I'm kind of stuck between the two,
I kind of read it is Mr. Cam had just lost hope at that point. You know, they just had suffered so many losses that and this is also right after the giant, violent altercation with the housekeeper and her husband. And then they and then their apartment is flooded, they lose everything. And now he's like, we don't make like, you should make plans. You think all these people in here plan on sleeping on a gymnasium floor tonight, like no one planned on this. So I read that as Mr. Kim, having completely lost hope in this moment. But yes, I think that's right on with the rock and that, like his son is clinging on to something. And that was something I didn't really pick on. I was like, why is he fucking holding this? This is really loves this rock. But I think that's right. Like, it was the one piece of potential hope. I mean, when they're when he's given the rock in the beginning, his friend, men who another piece of shit in this movie says to him, you know, this rock is supposed to bring material wealth for a family. So I think, again, another perfect on the nose metaphor. But yeah, I thought it really played out throughout the film.
And so then at the end, he ends up right, the father ends up living back in the basement, and they're speaking to each other through most Morse code, and the son writes him a letter saying, I have this plan. And there's this like dream plan that he's going to just start earning, you know, just, you know what I'll actually decide to start earning, like, it's a choice and buy the house and you'll come out and it's so good, you know, and you're moved by it, you'll come out and you'll find me and, and mom, and we'll be there waiting for you. And then and then we know that that's that's letter that hasn't happened and sort of like a genie sequence. But I'm curious, you're like the POV of the fit? Like, what did you feel like that that overall ending meant? Especially in the context of like a plant? Like, do you think that plan is going to pull through? Like, what was it? Or did you? Yeah, what were your thoughts on the end, where it left you,
the ending was necessary for that movie to even get screened in the United States of America.
To also say that, like, if you work really hard, there's still a chance you're just a temporarily inconvenience billionaire. And so I a part of me, when I first saw it, I was like, god dammit, like, why can't we have anything purely anti capitalist? Why does it have to end with this, you know, hope of like, if I work hard, I'll be like them. But upon second watch, it was just clear to me that what he was describing was not possible, given everything we've been shown. And so it becomes this, like, oh, that's the sad story. Everybody tells themselves to keep going. And so that's what I got from it. But I don't think we would have gotten that movie in America. Without that. See,
I agree. The placement of that scene was an important because they show basically the fantasy of the son doing it of him becoming rich of him buying the house, liberating his father. So there's like this metaphor of, you know, wealth is the only way to liberate the impoverished people in your life or, you know, or rectify these these injustices. But then it cuts back to him. And he's still in the semi basement, and he's still just writing the letter. This fantasy isn't real. So I agree. Just like the you need a little bit of that hope for that US audience. But also they, to me, it was like, this is just a fantasy. And this most likely will not come to fruition. I was so
happy at and no, I was so happy that it because I had forgotten how it ended. And that happened. And I was jarred like, no, no, no, like, that's not how it ends. So when it wasn't that I was like, Oh, thank God, I didn't think so. But like, that was a fantasy that wasn't real. Right? And of course, yeah. And I felt I think I felt I guess I'm still like what does it mean? Like not making plans, but it's such a beautiful paradox of like, where does that leave us that I think just like ultimately, we have a power as humans but that power is going to be found in each other and not in like our individual plans and pursuits perhaps before we get to awards. Yeah, I just want to ask because this I want to ask your thoughts on like this came out it's such an interesting I mean, as we saw, from our history on it an interesting moment in time, we're just about to get into the pandemic, but also like, I feel like it was the beginning of a lot of films sort of approaching more stories about class or we're seeing more stories about class. And particularly like narratives later coming. There was that moment in time where everyone's like, we're doing all these scammer stories, but just, we're approaching more stories about class. And there, it is interesting that this was like so allotted, everybody was unanimously like, loved. And it was so like, yes. Does everyone see it? Like, you know, and speaking to your experience to just like, yes, it's right here. Are we going to do something about it? Or, you know, just your thoughts on like, the cont that moment in time? And when this came out, and like people's reactions to this film, and did it meet any of your hopes or expectations,
I think this movie coming out, as a movie, not based in the United States made it a little bit more palatable. But then I started watching more during the pandemic, because we're inside all day, and I watched altered carbon, which had a lot of anti capitalists, you know, anti elite, critical, you know, commentary about severe inequality. I was like, how they get away with this being the highest funded Netflix series at the time. And it was right after I'd watch parasite animals, like, they're really just selling the revolution back to us, if they can make it some abstract idea, not based in the US some fantasy world, we're less likely to believe that's happening here, because it's something that happens in these other fantasy worlds. And it's like, in that sense, are they? Are they programming us to think in that way? I don't know. But it is definitely the revolution being sold back to us. And it's almost like the elites that fund these things. Because people have tons of money can afford to make movies and approve scripts and stuff. It's unfortunate how much power capital has over media in that way. But it's like, I don't know. They're just okay. Okay, you'll watch it, you'll, you'll get really excited about it. But I don't believe you'll do anything. It's almost like very in your face like I dare you. So yeah, that's how I feel about it very conflicted.
Same. We've talked about this a lot on this show of, it's the Mark Fisher capitalist realism, quote about, you know, these certain forms of media, art, film, television, perform our anti-capitalism for us, and thus give the audience a false sense of accomplishment or like participation. And I am equally conflicted about it. I'm, I'm glad that the stories exist, because I'd rather they exist than not exist. But I do think there is it does run the risk of like you said, the revolution just being sold back to us and someone watching it and being like, wow, I understand that things are bad. Now, I will go to the mall and continue my life. All right. Well, this is the point in the episode where we like to hit out awards for this movie. We got three awards. The first one is called a point with a view. This goes to the character with the best politics in the movie.
Well, I know what I was thinking of. And now I'm like, oof, I'll just go with my gut. I'll just say it because I was gonna say Moon Guang, which I know is she was the original housekeeper. Because I did find that moment super earnest. Like, I just bought that she was like, we're both in this needy class, like, Yes, her husband was like respect and I worshipping but like, there was that moment where I was like, I really bought that she was like, we could work together. I bought it and had some kind of consciousness of that. And for that reason, and then she just gets taken out pretty quick and pretty and she gets she gets brutal, you know, doesn't look fine to have a peach allergy. So I'm giving it to moonwalk.
I agree with you, just for that moment where she's the one who tries to forge a little bit of solidarity before I mean, she ends up ultimately turning on the cams and black trying to blackmail them but
right
I have to say just not because we share name. Oh, so yeah, the Kim family daughter because she was the orchestrator of infiltrating the family. And so I find that to be very useful, right? That's good politics.
Yeah,
very utilitarian.
Yes. Yeah.
Okay, that's a good one. All right. Our next award is despicable you this goes to the character with the worst politics in the movie. I think I gotta go with just Mr. Park on this. I feel like it feels like an easy one. I mean, he's not like the worst capitalist in the world like he's not you know, abusive or destructive, but he's just got such a shitty attitude towards to the people that work for him.
Yeah, he's pretty bad. I mean, I thought it was interesting in the in the park family was like they did also make Point to show the hierarchies in that family and how terrified she was of her husband. I mean, I think at one point she's like, I you know, the secrets they keep and she was like, Don't tell him because he'll like something something equivalent of like, chop me up. Like she was like, if he finds out he'll like chop, strangle me like something vicious. And then like, there's that weird moment where he just like because like, love her. Ha ha. Like, it's like weird with them like this subtext. So I just I appreciated that. Like, it was clear that he was like, not as nice as I think he appeared, perhaps and also, like, maybe slightly sadistic, so I give it to him as well.
Yeah, it's gonna be Mr. Park, he's the worst man is easy. They make him so easy to dislike.
Yeah. And our final award is a star is scorned. This goes to the supporting character that this movie should actually be about.
I'm gonna give this to Jessica, because yes, I could take a whole movie. I mean, if she dies, but like, resurrect her, or give us the afterlife, or anything, I just loved her. She was my favorite.
I want a story about the son who draws along. The only name our member shares the name was me, but a die really do. Yes. So critical of everything that's going on around him is a pacifist to some extent, in the sight of violence, but also critical of his parents seemingly and here's anarchist vibes. I want a story of you know, what he grows up to do?
That's a really good and
and it's interesting because he is the he is the only one who sees what's happening, right? Like, he sees what's going on when like, his the things are happening around and every other character is blind to it. So he's like a truth agent,
I would want to see like the prequel movie about the Kim's specifically like the Kim children, because it seemed like they contextualize their lives. And, you know, the son was like, he had the potential to go to university. And Jessica had or Jessica had the potential to become like this great artist and was taking lessons. So I was like, we're so curious about that. Like, like, how did we arrive at this point? Like, how did we get to the beginning of the movie? So? Alright, well, that is it for the awards for our listeners. If you have any ideas for new awards, you can email us at movies vs. capitalism@gmail.com.
So before we wrap up, just we like to discuss with our guests how, as people, we strive to practice our values, our anti cap values in our own lives, even with all its complexities and contradictions. So is there any one thing or a few things that you do that you'd like to share?
It's such a good question. I make a lot of skits about anti capitalism. No, my whole thing is, I talk about politics with my family. And it's not even like we grew up in a political household, we definitely didn't, hardly talked about the news or politics. But uh, and a lot of people tell you not to, but your family are the people who trust you the most. And everyone's like, God, I hate talking about politics with my family. But if you feel a certain way about what's going on in the world, I promise you, if you make a case, for you know, with me and my mom, who she was a bootstraps person, like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. bootstraps. If you work hard, you'll do well, and we shouldn't have any handouts type of situation. And I was like, listen, like, have you worked hard your whole life? Right? She's like, Yeah, of course, really hard. I hardly knew my parents until they got much older. And I was able to spend time with them because they were always working. So I'm like, of course, answers gonna be yes. And it's like, but you're not doing well. Like, it's still hard to keep a roof over their head still hard to pay the bills. We don't know how retirements even gonna happen for you and dad. It's like, Why do you think that is? I'm just being really open minded and just asking some questions and tying it to their lives and their interests, which you will know better than anybody else. It's your family. So as much as we say, you know, don't talk about politics with your family, talk about politics with your fucking family, like these are the people you're going to win over. And she was a registered Republican when we had that first conversation and ended up voting for Bernie Sanders in the primary and is completely like, on our side of things, and I think that's beautiful. So it goes against what everybody tells you to don't do it at the Thanksgiving dinner. Do it one on one, but have a really heartfelt conversation about politics with your family.
I love that fucking great one. Nice work. Yeah, that's awesome. Jess, where can our audience find you and your work
on the internet que Burbank just search Jessica Burbank tick tock, Instagram. Twitter's substack.
Amazing. Well, thanks so much for coming on.
Yeah, thanks, Jess. Appreciate it.
Thank you for doing parasite. I'm glad we had this chat.
Thank you all so much for listening, make sure to follow us on Instagram and Tiktok and if you've been enjoying this show, please consider becoming a supporter. You can find all of that information at MDC pod.com. And for
next week's episode, we're gonna be doing something a little bit different. Rather than talking about a movie. We will be discussing the series finale of the Emmy award winning HBO show six session. Thanks, everyone.
