Dr. Green will be presenting on the church from every tribe and talk vailable from langem Global library in 2018. This book explores the latest trends in global ecclesiology and ways to create a mutual understanding between global Christian communities. Jean green is a friend to many who are gathered together in this conference and someone who has a lot of wisdom to be able to share with us. We're extremely, extremely glad you're here. If I may, I will say a brief prayer and then it will directly transition to Dr. Greene's presentation if you would join me in a word of prayer, please, my gracious God and Heavenly Father, we thank you that you ruling over rule in this world. And, Lord, you've appointed those gathered together to play unique roles in fostering theological education around the world. We praise you for your wisdom that's brought these people to these positions. We couldn't have organized it, nor in many cases would we have chosen it. But we accept that from you. To meet the challenges that are looming on the horizon, we asked for your power, your empowerment, your strength, your focus, and for the for the opportunities that we have to learn in this our Holy Spirit, we ask that you would open all the right doors, that the things that need to be said would be said that those which need not be set not to be said. We ask for your guidance, and we pray these things in hope. In your name. Amen. Dr. Greene, we're all yours.
Well, I'm very pleased to see you all I was giving some greetings to friends I saw at the top of my screen, but I just changed the view here to see everybody all at once and and what a What a wonderful thing to see you all. Stephanie Lowery, Ciao, ciao. Good to see you, Woonsocket. Great to see you there and and others, Paul metzker. Know that you are going to be part of this, this, this panel and just absolutely wonderful to see you. I feel like my role here is the same as with the majority world theology series, that kk yo and Steve Pardew and I edited and i'm, i'm i'm like my wife, my wife and I have the same profession. She is a nurse midwife. I'm a midwife. And midwives themselves don't give birth, but they just, they're just there and they're watching the birthing process. And that's what I feel like my role is here, rather than being the authoritative voice on global ecclesiology I am not that and I want to put in that disclaimer, you know, there was a project that kk yo and Steve Pardew St. pardue, by the way, is that Asia Graduate School of Theology and kk yo at Garrett evangelical Divinity School near Chicago. And there's a project that we put together that that had really a double Genesis. The majority world theology series was born out of a series of questions that colleagues were asking. I'd get a rap on the door at my office when I was at Wheaton College, and my brothers and sisters were saying, Jean, what what can I get about eschatology from Africa? Or what can I read or have my students read about soteriology and what they're thinking in Asia and and, you know, it was it was hard in one way to pull everything together. So we decided to approach a couple of publishers like literature under the direction of Peter quanta, and then Urban's under the direction editorial direction of Michael Thompson. We approached them about doing a series a six volume series, that we work around the theological, low sigh, finding voices, Representative voices from Africa, Asia, Latin America, and also indigenous communities, First Nations communities, and we wanted them to come together and give their voice to what was going on in their context. We gathered together both biblical scholars and theologians that would speak together around these six, theological low side. We also wanted to have one voice in every volume that would represent the the Western tradition. And so the very first book that was published in the series was Christology, and we invited, for example, Kevin van hooser. To speak, we've had Jerry. We had others Gerald Bray who, who presented Western traditions. Amos young, although he is very, very diverse in his presentations gave one of those opening lectures, and so on. We had a great group of Western scholars, we also act asked that every author interact with with the creed with the Creed's. And for this volume on ecclesiology, we requested that everyone interact with the Nicene constant no content is constant, no plan that can't say, you know what I'm talking about creating
that, that states that that that we have one holy catholic and apostolic church, we also ask that every author, give us a brief brief survey of developments in their region on the various topics that were brought to the fore and then do their own constructive work both in biblical studies and theology. And it really became a wonderful time, where we gather together and being together like we are together now, though distant was very, very important for us. So we had wonderful donors like folk in the combs foundation and organizations like scholar leaders that funded the travel for many of the scholars from Africa, Asia, Latin America, we just didn't have the funds to gather together we gather them together at at the time of the society, biblical literature in the United States, and, and the sessions were held in the evangelical theological society, and also the Institute of biblical research. The six volumes were published by Langham and Erdman published the first four volumes of the series on majority world theology. But then we move the whole series in the US over to intervarsity Press, and perhaps some of you have, have seen, oh, what's coming out here, and I'm gonna put this up here. And this is the new volume that's coming from intervarsity Press majority world theology, so 600, and some odd pages, seven years of labor, 1000s of dollars donated the expertise of scholars from across the globe. And and we're just thrilled that this is, this is being published still by laying them now by intervarsity. Press. So it's 46 scholars, three editors, seven years of editors, enumerable. And, above all, with a common cause to try to bring to the fore the developments through the majority world and indigenous communities. And you know, that some of you have, have heard me talk about teaching at at Wheaton and being in a class a majority world theology and asking my students, so what, why, why would we want to do this, why we want to read with our brothers and sisters around the globe. And I'll never forget a couple of students said, Well, we need to read what's going on around the world. So we know how to correct them. Another person said, Well, what gives them the right to sit at the table with us. And I think that we all have to recognize that within our theological institutions in North America, and often throughout the globe as well. It's the western voice, the Western tradition, that is the sole voice that's ever heard. I'm still amazed that Wayne grudem his systematic theology is so widely used around the globe, just translated into different languages. But we have to recognize that that all biblical studies and all theology is semi elliptical bar, well reminded us years ago, all theology is contextual, whether it's Western or, or coming from East Africa, West Africa, South Africa, from various parts of Asia, and South American from indigenous communities. And what I've seen what I've seen over the over the years in teaching and writing a majority of your theology, it's been the interests of colleagues, which is so wonderful,
but also in students who who sink their teeth into the discussion around the globe. I've seen joy and as a conservative scholar, as somebody who loves and walks with the Lord to see the joy and rediscovery of faith that comes as students read out have their own tradition and their understanding the faith is broadened, and deepened. And I think this is the thing that that probably inspires me more than anything else. That in this democratization that's coming through the global discussion about biblical studies and theology, we are discovering, rediscovering dimensions of the gospel that we had not seen before, at least those of us here in the West, it's like, wow, you know, there's more to this story, as we read along the grain, with our brothers and sisters throughout, throughout the throughout the globe. And I think we have to understand that I think most of our brothers and sisters in the majority world, I mean, they've got very, very high view of Scripture. But they also have a deep understanding of the hermeneutical circle that has to include reading the text with the context, and you have to read the context, you have to read the theological tradition. And I see most of our majority world scholars that that do interact deeply with Western tradition, but they have to read with Stark traditions of, of Christianity, but reading along with their context, and then also reading as part of this hermeneutical circle, practice. And I want to my my headphones are off my hat is off to our Latin American brothers and sisters, who understand the key role of praxis in the whole theological process, whether you're with the Latin American theological fellowship with Missy on integral integral mission, or they're with liberation theology, where you think about theology as critical reflection on practice, in light of the Word of God praxis is, is an essential and not a secondary component to the theological enterprise. So I think that when it comes to our reading of ecclesiology, across the globe, we have to recognize that a lot of us have inherited some pretty colonial ideas that we're just the only ones that can do theology. And the rest are just, you know, that well, that's just African theology. No, no, African theology is theology, full stop. Latin American theology is theology full stop. And very often, in this discussion about ecclesiology, this is where it begins. Why is it that we democratize theology throughout history, but failed to do so around the globe? That makes no sense. The church of the Lord Jesus Christ is of every nation, tribe and tongue, Revelation seven, nine? And who are we to bracket out the voices and the praise of brothers and sisters from other parts of the globe? And also for our brothers and sisters in other parts of the globe? to only read the Western tradition? And why not? I mean, there are, I've heard over and again, from scholars in different parts of the globe, who were warned not to read that contextual theology is some evil. No, it's just good Christian theology, full stop. So we have to, I think, need a better ecclesiology that includes all voices around the table, we need a better eschatology, that around that eternal, table and, and throne of God, it is every tribe and tongue we need, we need a better Christology, recognizing that Christ is incarnate in in humanity, not not one particular expression, community, humanity, but all humanity, we need a better doctrine of God that you recognize that God is Creator of all and Redeemer of all and in God so loved the world, we need a better soteriology Christ died for all. I think about a second earlier today about about Paul's statement to the Corinthians that he takes the the tradition, and he said, Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, and he's talking to Gentiles and Jews that were members of the Corinthian church. So ecclesiology
and it's its place within within all this there are surprises along the way, I think one of the most surprising pieces of this volume and I want one sigma and Carlos and Stephanie to, to jump in and shout out if you jump in as well to talk about what's happening within their regions, but I think one of the essays that just just hit me between the eyes was the one by moon there, Isaac, Palestinian Christian at Bethlehem Bible college and he did something that was very similar to what I've heard from indigenous Christians, and they hooked together ecclesiology with a theology of land, and, and that's a category that had never even entered my mind, I'd like to read here from the book, my books are still in boxes here in Florida. So I had to run off a photocopy of this one. And he says, this, the Christian experience today is always rooted in time and space. And he's talking here about the church, to be in Christ has to be with him here. And now. And this at the same time, is a community experience. So being in Christ, here's where our ecclesiology begins to be in Christ has to be in him with a community of believers. And this is directly related to the land of that community. The theology of the land emphasizes the role of the community is very important that the Christian life demands responsibilities from and to those within the community, the social dimension of the theology of the land helps reclaim the community element in redemption. And he goes on from there, land can be separated from our ecclesiology place space, something we don't really think about often, in the Western tradition, instead of going in doing a survey of what everyone was saying, In this book, since we have many of the authors here, I, I'd like to, to hear from from them. And I'm just looking around the room here. And Carlos Sosa, the Guatemala, good brother that I taught with for many years at Wheaton College as expert in the Gospel of john, but did some tremendous work on ecclesiology. For this, for this volume. And he his essay was a savior of the world, a theology of the universal gospel that centered on john, I was wondering, Carlos, could you give us something of a of a summary of what you were talking about? In in your essay?
Yes. Thank you for the invitation again, and the morning, everybody. I have the copy here. This is the copy that Jean sent me. And what? Yes, what I was trying to do was to look at the history of the church in Latin America, especially in Central America, we're doing one Costa Rica. So 90% or 95% of people in Central America. Were coming from a Roman Catholic tradition. So ideas about the charge salvation, God, Jesus, were closely related to Roman Catholic theology. However, there was or there were few attempts to original thinking about systematic theology in the past. So what I did was to try to find original thinking in Latin America, and I discover a authour that maybe you have read before the His name is Leonardo Boff. And he developed an idea called aqueous, your kindnesses. I try to interact with your thinking. On the Protestant side, we also have kind of the same situation, most of the echoes eulogy, in Central America, from a Protestant perspective, was inherited from other contexts, or European context or from the United States. So it was difficult to find original thinking, but I found urinaria he developed a particular ecclesiological, holistic ecclesiology or it was eulogy that has to do with the whole gospel. So in my essay, I am looking at these two offers in another bar from Brazil and the neighbor the year from Ecuador, and try to compare and see how they develop new ideas about the charge, the mission of the church and the nature of the charge. And at the end, I propose Reading the gospel of john from taking into account their insights. So I am trying to bring them into conversation with this particular gospel and trying to ask or some particular contextual questions. So in this last section of the article, I suggest that the church should have a global awareness, that also, it should be committed to suffering. And then it should be a community of Christians where diversity or diversity is reconciled. So that's basically the the article and some specifics, I'm going to mention in a moment. So we're not above ecclesiology was very innovative, maybe 50 years ago, because he suggested that each Christian should be an agent of transformation in their own communities. So it is not that we have laypeople attending charge at receiving instruction from a priest, but according to evolve, each Christian should engage keys and hear own context and transform his or her own context. Now, that was revolutionary in 1960 1970. The the Roman Catholic Church wasn't very happy with his ideas. He was actually put in discipline for for his theology. And he left the Roman Catholic Church after. So in the case of an EPA, he his contribution is similar to the another buffs contribution. But whenever the suggests that the church should be an agent of transformation, the gospel is not only concerned with the spiritual side, salvation of people, but it also concerns the transformation of society, Christians should seek justice, and Christians should engage the other dimensions of the gospel, the spiritual dimension. Now, in terms of the proposal, I suggest that Christian communities today should be local communities, but they should have a global awareness. And let me put you an example. I remember maybe hearing the book.
So for example, when it comes to financial matters, that's the example that I include here. We usually placing in some context, throwing progressions to be concerned about their own personal finances, for example, but I hardly ever hear, charge, or from pastors or leaders, to encourage Christians to have a global awareness about finances and economic issues. For example, what does it mean to be a Christian working in business? What does it mean to be a Christian, who is in the majority world and has businesses with people in the developing world, or who is in the United States and has businesses with people in Latin America, how those Christianity and his or her own visions about the church will impact his relationships with his financial relationships with other context. I also emphasize the idea of being suffering communities. One of the things that I have discovered, for example, when I was living in the UK or hitting the us is that one of the temptations of the charge is to look for position, status, political power, and that can be risky. Actually, when we read the New Testament, Christian communities were under persecution, they were minorities, and they were soft, for Jesus example, himself is an example of suffering, bringing God's kingdom not through power or status or position, both through suffering, he died on the cross he suffered in order to bring the gospel to us. So those are those and someone he needed initial ideas that maybe can elicit some discussions. Good,
thank you. Thank you, Carlos. I was wondering, Chow, you were talking about not suffering so much, but your your work was dealing with with the issue of conflict and the in the theology of Paul, but then also within the Chinese context, and that we always heard rereading your, your work and thinking about how most of our discussions about ecclesiology are always about the unity. And and and you kind of flipped it around you Protestant, right down to earth? And how do you do ecclesiology talking about conflict and division and and I thought okay, that is an extremely important piece that should be in all of our theology textbooks. I was already good elaborate a little bit on that for us.
Thank you for this chance to to be with us about my sci fi understanding points, like Will I ever try to teach like the first Christians the social context of first Christians, I realized there are lots of conflicts between different group like, maybe way x six one talk about a crispy kengeri for us and Hebrew, for Jesus for us. And also, like, Paul teacher, and all different kinds of conference and are in Corinthians. So, yeah, and they I like, in, in the context of China, and I also Yeah, fine. Like all you have different or different type type of churches, like I think I mentioned in the, in the essay that talked about, like, three soft church and how shares and all like different conflict with between each other, on the SAT my face official, more like, have more cross connection with Chinese government, and but how serious is like a more the be persecuted, oppressed. And so just as some areas, they have good relationships, but most, I think they have much conflict with each other. And also, recently, I've been like, managing people and the Hong Kong people, we have so many conflicts, and that's just, although in churches, I think, more and more before, like we have most Hong Kong people go into Mainland China to do some, like support in different ways, like pretty preaching, or economic support about recently up to some, you know, the variant pitching. I mean, socialseo was as a social various in Hong Kong and then more. So I think they don't like Chinese government. So at some point, they also don't like Chinese cheapo. So I've been not so many people nowadays want to go back to Milan to support like churches, so and I just think so all like this kind of conflicts, bear with on their value systems, the different view of once I say, all of even political view, or all kind of new kind of stuff. So I think so. Because Yeah, search is still show, I mean, is still we're still for human, the human communities. So we bear with the simple parts, simple parts of simple parts of, of human. So, so I think that's where the conflict comes from. So but sometimes is it's not how to overcome, overcome the conflict. It's just, it may be just one of, characteristic of often the nature of church but, but what we what I want to ask, even within the conflicts are how we come, how we can live out on the cross of Jesus Christ, the love of Jesus Christ, even when we are so different with each other, how we can live out the love of Jesus Christ ness, that's the key thing. We are not to become the same people, we all just we have different backgrounds, different culture, different viewpoints. And yeah, less we are different. But how can we leave out? Still can leave out the unite, unite. United. I mean,
like, like united life for Jesus less less the point I want it, I want to say sorry, it's a little late here so I'm not either I express myself
Well, it's absolutely wonderful that we're absolutely arcane across the globe in this conversation from China to Kenya, here and and all the way south to, to Chile. And so no, it's quite quiet. All right, but I mean, here, here's the, you know, a waterfall space where we think about and we all know the biblical evidence but but to think about ecclesiology a theology of the church, in the context also of theology of difference and a theology of conflict. And and how do we work all these together in this, you know, is our our reality as it was the reality within the early church? And as you rightly point out the cultural differences? How do we manage that I can't help but thinking about Romans and especially Robert Jew, it's commentary is massive thing on on Romans and the Herman a, a series where he's reading it back to front. Well, before Scott McKnight did that, and he reads it back to front and and thinking about the conflict, that that's inherent in these different ethnicities trying to gather at a common table and the social prejudices that there were, and very enlightening, you know, to hear about the differences between Hong Kong and China, because I know that I had, I'm sure a few others as well, having this tendency to lump just everyone together. A lot of lumping even when we talk about, you know, Kenya is is is East Africa, and it's got its own realities, as opposed to Nigeria or South Africa. So there is this, this tendency not to fine tune our our ecclesiology is that that will be responsive and in dialogue with context, a specific context where we are. So it's just a wonderful work. And Stephanie Lowery, raised in Kenya, studied a wheat and went back to Kenya now it's Scott, the Africans and the concept of boon to and and the role of ancestors and community, oh, my word. And if you haven't read Lowery's book, you really should, where she gives a fabulous overview of what's going on in African ecclesiology. And some of the richest contributions to this discussion from the place that is really become the center of Christianity, numerically and missionally. Something we don't recognize very often the church has moved south and east. You know, I like to tell my students we here are on the margins of Christianity. We are on the margins here in North America. So anyway, as Stephanie, what what was going on with with your thinking, and African reflections on ecclesiology?
Thanks, Jean, for the invitation. Huh? Yeah, that was it feels like almost a lifetime ago that we did that.
was nice to look back on it.
So I guess it's been a busy four years. So thanks for the invitation. Yeah, at the time. I mean, I admit my bias. I grew up in Kenya. So I'm always a little bit upset when people overlook an entire continent. Or leather as far as Do you speak African? No, no. But it was exciting to look at what's going on in churches across Africa, just because there is so much happening, as you said, as Philip Jenkins is pointed out and others, there's this huge shift. And perhaps in North Atlantic contest context, we're struggling with getting enough people in our churches to keep going. And that is not the problem. We're generally having an Africa, we're having the opposite problem of not enough leaders or not enough people who can do discipling of believers because we're having so many new believers. So initially, when I started doing the research for this project, I wanted to look at African independent churches, meaning churches that were not begun by Westerners. They're not linked to a Western church or historic churches we sometimes call them so what are they doing when they've received the freedom or taken their freedom? to shape a church that suits the context or meets the needs of the context. And one of the things that was immediately obvious was, Jean, you had mentioned at the beginning that some of these Western students are interested in global theology for the purposes of knowing how to correct them, or bring them back to Scripture. But as you look at these African independent churches and what they're doing, it's immediately obvious that a lot of them are pulling their models, their imagery, their language very directly from Scripture. They'll refer to themselves as the new Xi'an. Just our concern from the west is sometimes are they biblical enough. And if you take a little time to look, you would realize that these churches are indeed concerned with being biblical, and actually developing perhaps a closer relationship with Scripture in some of our Western ecclesiology seemed to do. So it was an enjoyable for me to learn about that, partly because I had grown up in a mission Institute in church. And so it was interesting to see what what contextualization happens when there is freedom from Western influence, or at least a lot more freedom. So we're seeing at least an African independent churches a lot more willingness to contextualize because they're not being led or don't want to say forced, overly guided by the West. So there's a lot more freedom there to think of contextual models, but at the same time, contextualize with Scripture firmly in mind. And that's been exciting to see one of the other things that arose as I was just looking at some of these different churches and their denominations and how they function is definitely much more a pneumatology being linked to ecclesiology, which is not always the case in some of the churches that I grew up in. The emphasis on pneumatology, in terms of an emphasis on the charismatic gifts, gifts being given to every believer, and therefore, that every believer is gifted and expected to be involved in serving in some way. So that opened up that emphasis opens up a lot more possibility for younger people, or for women to be part of leadership in the church. And typically, a lot of African cultures are very hierarchical, and sometimes patriarchal. So these ecclesiology, are opening up the possibility of all of God's people being involved in leadership or influencing the church, which is a big change from what a lot of churches were doing. And that's been a healthy sign in my mind to see that happening in the church. It's a huge continent. So I am aware that I'm very, very aware that I was not representing everything that's happening. But I think it is important for us, regardless of where we live, to try and just continue to expand our our knowledge or awareness of what God is doing around the world. One of the particular or can I say odd, maybe discussions that is happening in African ecclesiology, was the debate about whether or not the term family should be used for the church. And anytime I bring that up in a Western context, people looked at me as if I was a bit dim. I say politely.
Because it's, you would say, well, it's obvious family languages in the church, both in the Old Testament describing Israel is God's children are God's people. And we also have, of course, in the New Testament, the churches, the household of God. And so it seems like one of those things that we just accept the language, and don't think very critically about it. But when you're in a context, where ethnicity is a huge, huge determiner of everything, it becomes a slightly different discussion. So for example, in Kenya, we have currently 42 different recognized ethnic groups. So if you have over 40 different ethnic groups recognized by the government, then you have to realize that each one has a different understanding of what clan or ethnic group mean and how they're supposed to function. And so as soon as you describe the church as family, you are bringing in those ethnic backgrounds, which immediately mean, we favor our own ethnic background. The clan or the tribe is to protect itself to assist your own people, not others. And so the idea of churches family becomes much more difficult, something that we need to talk about in a lot more nuance to explain how the church as the family of God is different from the ethnic families that we know. So some of those discussions that don't really make any sense or come up at all in the West are very pressing concerns for the church across Africa. And all was using Kenya as an example just because of those 40, some ethnic groups that are recognized. And so it's just raising our awareness that even language that is scriptural, still needs to be carefully nuanced as we apply it in different contexts. What does family mean here? And how does that differ from what scripture means by the term family? So one of the challenges or conclusions that I think is raised after studying the the churches in Africa for a while is there, their desire to be scriptural, I think is fairly clear. If you're willing to read the the catholicity, or the unity with the church around the world, maybe a bit more problematic, because as you raised the question, or as you commented, sorry, I'm a bit jet lagged right now. So I could be saying anything, for all I know. Sorry. But if if churches and other contexts are not willing to listen to anyone outside of their own context, then how do we ever develop that capitalist city. So if if the western church sees no reason to listen to churches in Africa, then we're not going to have catholicity. And frankly, some of those African independent churches are not interested in developing relationships with the West, because they have been so hurt by that colonialism, the desire to control and to look down on. So for me, I would say that raises a challenge for churches in other parts of the world, to show that they are serious about developing this capitalist city, it's easy to repeat the creed without demonstrating it in practice. And I would say until churches around the world are interested in listening to each other, we are going to fail on the catholicity aspect of the creed. that make any sense there.
I think I think you did. All I can say is, please definitely state jetlag, oh, you're doing well. doing very well. And so many points that you bring up here. But, you know, one of the last ones was about colonialism. And I don't think that any of us can talk about ecclesiology without thinking about the colonial heritage and what it's meant. And this is I think, a lens that is difficult to to take up because it is sharp, it is critical. But it's a very, very important one for us. And, you know, I would give my students Sugata Raja for hemlo, for example, to read, and they would hate it. I said, Well, if you don't agree with some of his conclusions, you need to listen. You need to listen to the colonial heritage and what it's done and how it very often didn't allow for indigenous development of theology. And we've missed the mark like many of the examples that you that you have there so extremely good. Thank you. Thank you Stephanie. In a minute I want to turn it back over here to Jonathan but but I want to get in one sock ma good friend, former director of the Oxford center mission studies and now the dean at the College of theology and ministry it over or Roberts University just started up a Ph. D program god bless you my brave brother for that for that move. But he had a wonderful essay in this volume. First of all, let me let me say that once he has done everything and written everything, I mean just just an absolutely Renaissance type of man and woman so just going back over your your accomplishments in your publications over the years but with this focus on on mission very often, and in your in your work along with the other doctor, Dr. Julie MA in this and Please give her our greetings. But I think it was interesting in in your essay you made the statement the church was born in Asia, yet it's it's a porn religion. I think about what Keiko has said to me about China and very often people have to decide you know, whether they're going to be Christian or Chinese you know, again, with that colonial overtone that that You have to have this cultural conversion in order to be a follower of Christ. But you've focused in on a case study of two very, very large churches in in Korea the word of Life Church and yodel, and I'm probably mispronouncing that, please forgive me, Yoda Full Gospel Church with Paul Young each show. And I was wonder if you could speak a little bit about, you know, the developments that you've seen in ecclesiology, in Korea and your reflections on this topic.
Thank you, it's wonderful to see all of you. I never had a chance to be in the midst of your gathering. It was a it was an intriguing invitation, gene that you extended to me and I was, I was so pleased that I could join you, you folks realize that, at least in Korea and East Asia in some ways. ecclesiology is often times shaped as the churches develop local congregations develop. And of course, I saw how either Full Gospel Church was growing, developing and is shaping his theology. Oftentimes, theology was an afterthought. The church was growing so fast, and they're trying to manage it, and only is a descriptive process. Alright. But Effie here is a serogroup system going around in this huge church, and every Sunday you have hundreds new people added. Okay. I don't think theology call luxury was there there's no resource but it is truly exciting. Like some parts of China There is no doubt it's not the ology that shapes church is a church that shapes theology. And I'm sure that this Coronavirus setting is also challenging us, it's not somebody to who draw all the theology of the church. So, that one Coronavirus hit, we can simply turn on that number and and just move in. So, so, it is it is only a case study and realize that how the leadership shapes plays such an important role in the same shaping of ecclesiology. And that also means that one, there is a leadership change there is right now, what kind of ecclesiology will emerge. So, it is a constantly evolving, changing, shaping. So it is exciting. I think I rather live in that world to try to chase all the time, then we are comfortable, the water is not flowing. Don't worry, our ecclesiology will also valid in 100 years later. I think we are living in a very exciting time.
Hmm, well,
you know, the statement about the theological process being secondary, not primary, I think draws us back to the hermeneutical question of where does theology begin to to begin by reading scripture? does it begin by reading the tradition? does it begin by asking the questions that come from our particular context and the realities that we're facing? does it begin with praxis and again, all these are part of the hermeneutical circle? And it sounds like with the development of Korean ecclesiology the just the realities can grow out of or the theological reflection grows out of the the lived realities on the ground you didn't make money one venture for Can I ask you something it's been very intriguing over the years is the emphasis that many have noted at sea right get right yo Edo Full Gospel Church of the focus on a God's blessing and the relationship between the realities in the church and and shamanism. Would you care to comment a little bit about that and if it has any bearing on on thinking regarding it, physiology
All right. I need to be careful in what I'm saying.
I know.
It's not an easy one.
But any any Christianity, especially when we talk about ecclesiology, it is locally rooted. Although we celebrate and affirm the universality, but it starts with a local expression. And there is no doubt, as the latest the calmer in the religious market in Korea. Christianity is being shaped already existing religiosity, religious orientation. Therefore, even in early days, whether it's a Methodist, Presbyterian, I didn't have a chance to look at Catholics very closely. But in the early days, expectation of supernatural was very common. In fact, the union great revival produced a summer literature that talks about healing, that talks about dreams and talks about supernatural so it it they are not the Pentecostal monopoly. In fact, it was informed by General religious expectations. Therefore, shamanism talked about healing, they practiced childbearing as part of the many expectations, therefore, Christianity had to respond to expectation. Therefore, I wouldn't say that the Pentecostal practices in Korea are borrowed from the shamanism, but there is an expectation and religiosity already shaped and a Christianity just enter into that shape. Yeah, would that sakes say enough?
Yeah. And and there's constantly this dance between extent, values on the ground and the gospel that we have to recognize some of those values are antithetical to the gospel, and others are completely in harmony with it. And it's amazing how Paul arrived in Athens. And he begins, you know, talking about the altar to the unknown God, something that that POW Sani, has talks about in Athens as well. It says this God who you worship in ignorance, I'm going to preach him to you. So he starts with with the reality on the ground, or Paul's interaction with the domestic codes that were part and parcel of Greco Roman moral philosophy. And so this taking up of things that are already there, and, and this marvelous dance that goes on between the gospel and culture, Jonathan, I want to turn it back a bit, but if I could, I want to get my brother over here to my my right. Mark Knoll, and former colleague of mine at Wheaton College and now formerly got a lot of former leads here. Formerly, Francis, a mckenny, professor of history at Notre Dame, and Mark and I were together in a faculty development seminar seminar on majority world theology and, and Mark's book, every tribe from every tribe and nation, historians discovery of the global Christian story, Mark, what happened? It's something you mean your your world renowned as a specialist in American Christianity, history, American Christianity, what? what went on as you began to look a little bit further around the globe. What happened?
Well, Jean, first thing to say is just God, speak to you and your colleagues doing books like majority world theology, maybe maybe I'm hearing majority rule theologies. But it's just wonderful. I mean, it as your question I just say three things. First, is a person likes to read. There is a number of tremendously interesting books. So starting with lama ansata and Andrew walls and Dana Robert, pretty soon you introduced kk Yo, I think was a title. What has jerusalem jerusalem, Beijing. What a wonderful, wonderful notion. Diane stetten Jesus in Africa, Daniel bass and Chilean writing tremendous books on China Renae pedia. You're talking to Joseph son about Romania, talking to Stephen King about Korea, it was just very clear that as a store historian, it was wonderful to see the importance of context to see the importance of culture, to see the importance of historical tradition. Well, then, what, as a Christian, what's that mean? You get asked the question. Well, I've been driven back as actually several of your participants have intimated already a day to the incarnation, where you have absolute universality revealed an absolute particularity. So somehow ecclesiology this is theologians to work on. But somehow, the Christian faith has to always be intensely local, and intensely universal. And of course, that's more than any, any one person or went on Google. And I say the last thing that this really wonderful chance to read a lot of good books by a lot of really interesting people and very important parts of the world. In my own life has made me maybe, ironically, more aware of how much I really love being a Presbyterian, stodgy denomination with emotionally constrained people who like to read old Creed's and catechism, that's my call. That's my context. Not hopefully the exclusion of all others, but alongside all others. So it's, I used to say I didn't have a midlife crisis, because I discovered Canadian history. But I really should say, as I didn't have a midlife crisis, because I discovered the world history of Christianity, which has been just just tremendous.
Wonderful, you know, as someone experienced when I, when I lived in Scotland, many years ago, it's then that I discovered that I had an accent. And you begin, you know, as you travel, you recognize your own identity and your own rootedness in place, and time and, and how significant that is, and it can be a celebration of the local, as well as the universe on how those how those two dance together, and I think this conversation is all about how these local are part of the universal and, and and, and it's the opening up and dimensions of faith mark, I remember when we had that seminar together when Johana catinaccio came and yohana teachers with munther, Isaac, he wrote an essay, Christ is the owner, owner of audits of the land. And remember when he came and I think you said, You know, I remember this moment that he was really making a significant contribution, Christian theology now that's worked up in a book and and how do we develop a theology of land. This is a topic of a forthcoming book that kk yo and I are, are editing with a tortured series name. It's called cross currency, majority world of minority theology, and working around different theological low sigh that come out of the majority world theology, land, theology, migration, and then theology of identity, first three volumes on that. But, Jonathan, let me toss it over to you because I know we have other panelists here that you want to bring in. And, and and again, I want to thank you for opening up the opportunity for all these folks to gather and present some of their their work, and I hope everyone will, will continue to read in this area.
We sincerely want to thank you, Dr. Green, and also Stephanie show show Carlos and Dr. Knoll, thank you so much inductor. Ma, thank you so much for those comments. I want to be sensitive to everybody's time. I think that this but I also want to make the most of this incredible opportunity. We have to speak here. So I don't want to rush us. But I do want to make sure that we stay focused.
I think
I would motion that I think the best thing that we could do now would simply to be surface the questions that you have, possibly those questions are concerning research in global theology, we have with us a good cohort of researchers in global theology. We also have everybody part I think if I have my bearings, right, everybody holds a position in a formal institution of theological education. So maybe there are tactical questions that we want to surface to. What does it mean to bring global theology deeper into our curricula or or our program offerings? How do we reach people outside of the West with theological education? How do we set up partnerships exchange programs those questions may be present to my last encouragement would be that we don't have to answer The answer all the questions. So I think there is a value simply in stating the questions we will learn from one another, as we hear questions surface from from our different positions. So let's open the floor and maybe at about 20. After the hour, we'll close what what questions are there that we can direct to those present.
I was going to point over to Jeff greement, and ask him he had to dash out he put a notice here about the significance for the Academy. He wrote a chapter on that for the book that we edited on evangelical theology and global context came out, but Wheaton College theology conference got a fabulous chapter on the significance for the Academy. And then mark laboratory now president of Fuller Seminary, did a an essay on the significance for the church, but maybe, I don't know, Doug, Doug, Doug, you got some thoughts on this? I mean, you're the new dean there at VSAN. What, what does this mean for besian? And how does it affect these? will it affect is it affecting? I don't know what's going on?
Well, besian, as some of you know, has traditionally had a very Western way of teaching theology to students, which has a lot of benefits to it. But one things I've been doing in this past year is trying to expand our horizons a little bit and nationalize and internationalize the way we think about what it means to serve the church theologically. I had a question. It's not related so much to my work at VSAN is just related to my my work as a historian of Christianity. I've been involved in some of these conversations over the years and chipping away at a global history of Christian doctrine these days and have a lot to learn from this wonderful group of people here was a delight to read the book was a delight to listen to you all comment. You know, ever since I began learning about contextualization theory, probably 35 years ago now, it's occurred to me as a US American, that American theology is way over contextualized. And theologies in many other parts of the world, of course, are under contextualized. I wonder, I'd love to get some advice from the folks who contributed to your book. First of all, about how best to balance maybe what Peter Nan de mai saying his name correctly, your contributor to the book, he made that really interesting distinction between identity ecclesiology ease and conceptual ecclesiology. He talked about concrete ecclesiology as well, that put me in mind at some of Andrew walls worked on, you know, the indigenizing principle and the pilgrim principle, and for years now, I've been trying to think about how best it even just in my teaching ministry, to encourage students to balance these things. And it's occurred to me that the balancing act probably needs to look different in different parts of the world. You know, I think my us American students need to think critically about their kind of nationalistic, overly contextualized theologies, and need to be in a position where they're learning from folks in the majority church whose theologies have hitherto been under contextualized, and are now figuring out how to balance the indigenizing principle and the pilgrim principle or the need to do identity ecclesiology, on the one hand, with the desire to contribute to conceptual ecclesiology is on the other hand, so if I could ask a two fold question, I think it would be first of all, what's what's the advice contributors to your volume have for teachers like me, about how to help students think about this balancing of these two dimensions of ecclesiology? And then secondly, What kinds of things do they think need to be part of the expanding of our ecclesiological horizons in the United States today?
Not going to
address all of the questions raised there. One of the things that, that I've been wrestling with is, how do I how do I raise these kinds of questions or concerns in a Western context? How do I help Western brothers and sisters to see their need to learn Listen to others, because often, I get the impression, perhaps incorrectly, but I often get the impression from the western church that we've got it figured out. Thanks. And it's interesting that you're out, you're out there doing your thing, but doesn't really affect us. So just a small thing that I would love to see, which I did see at Wheaton. So thank you, Jean, is just within churches within schools. Whether it's in a in a sermon, or in our, in our teachings, just to be making space for those voices that think a little differently, even in small ways, can make a big difference. Because I find that with my students in Kenya, and I get we get students from across the continent. So I think I mean, we have about 39 different nationalities at our school, and just just having them read or listen to diverse voices. Even if we don't spend a ton of time talking about each different context that it comes from. It is eye opening for some of them. I've had some students who will say, why are we reading so much Western theology? I tried to make it about 5050. Sometimes, and others who will complain and say, why are we reading so much African theology. And I find it interesting that just
just the the syllabus, just
seeing a mix of different authors and different points raised is something some of them haven't considered before that they need to listen to other contexts. So it's, I don't have any big, systematic solutions. But I would love it if from the pulpit and in the classroom, we were just continuing to bring in some of these different voices and treating it as if it was normal to learn from these different voices, instead of saying, Oh, this is our week for contextual theology, just keep working that into our syllabi into our sermons into our Sunday school lessons of here's what I've learned from a different context. That would be something that would be hugely encouraging to me to see.
The last course I taught at Wheaton, I used a Gustin confessions. And I think that, Doug, you you have had students read Jonathan Edwards, Edwards over the years, we sometimes make excursions into origin. And then there's this guy from Geneva, Calvin. And they're all you know, really from different contexts in our own I mean, a Gustin struggles in confessions and Mackey ism and in his, with his mom, and at all that, you know, they're really, really different cultural values and, and realities. And we just, we did, it's just kind of the normal Evan flow of things when we read down through the history of the church, and really, we're reading, you know, contextualized theologies all the way. So I just want all I'm saying here's an amen to what Stephanie said, you know, how how do we make sure that the voices through history and across look glow are represented in Silla by and this is where we, as Dean's, you know, have a real responsibility to to ask those questions to our faculty, why are we just, you know, working on one tradition? And and why I've seen over and again, you know, well, you know, this suspicions and concerns and well, you know, I've got some concerns about a Gustin, frankly, as a Methodist I have some concerns about about Calvin, you know, but but they're, this is this is the, the family, you know, and we we read with a family here, Carlos, you're gonna say something to this, weren't you?
Yes, first of all, my internet connection is not very good. My two children are taking classes online. So we are all using internet at the same time. So I didn't hear you the whole structure of the question. So I'm going just to answer the question that I thought you asked. So one of the things that might be helpful, and before doing that, thank you for saying that us because geology and us to his special light for us, oh, when I came here, but I thought it was only myself who saw that So how to help people engage other contexts and to have a more global international perspective. One of the blessings that the United States has is that the whole world is right here, we have a Latino communities, African American communities, Asian communities. So for example, me, I am going to be teaching a class about ecclesiology, maybe I can ask my students to commit themselves to attend a Lotty, George for one semester. And two, instead of going to their own churches, every every week, they are going to be attending a, I don't know, Latino, or African American church every Sunday, and then we can come to the classroom and discuss about their experiences. And the second thing that I can say is that it is a little bit different to engage other voices, when we engage them. work or people sample if they want to learn more about Latin America to try to read Latin American authors in Spanish. That's what we have been doing. When we engage the United States theology or British theology, we'll learn English, although our first language is Spanish or any other language. So I will encourage people to learn the language of the culture that they will lie to engage. It is different to read Rene periya in Spanish, and to read him in English, there is something that that is, is not there any translation? So those are my my two suggestions. I hope you you hear what I'm saying. My connection is not very good. Again.
We got it. We got it. Carlos, Kevin, Kevin, you're there in South Africa. And your work on key voices and South African church history in the array of churches in the rainbow nation? I don't know what would you How would you respond to Doug Sweeney on this one?
Thanks, Jean. Can you hear me?
Yes, we can very, very well. Thanks. Oh, good.
Thank you. I was most of my life in South Africa and also taught in Cape Town and in Johannesburg. I'm now as you can probably see an old retired man now on my daughter's from England. But I have been following with and reading all these essays with with great interest, particularly I identify very much with ishasha is that the right name, the idea of that conflict, having lived in a country deeply rent by conflict, that touched my heart very much because it touched a note of absolute reality. That we have communities that are in tension with one another, very severe at times, and the incredible importance of trying to penetrate through these to listen, to hear, to understand, listening, trying to really not just academically kind of get a grasp of what the so that person is saying, but to try and get under the skin and see if this person is my brother in Christ, with the same faith, same hope. What makes them tick? Can I understand not just academically, but sympathetically. Taking from a South African context? Can I really enter into the heart of my Zulu brother, and try and understand what makes him tick and say some of the things or even more controversially, my African brother with his tradition, some of those traditions that are frowned upon perhaps and criticized, all the more difficult to actually grasp a sympathetic understanding. So the whole idea of making an extraordinary effort and I'm thinking admittedly air of Paul's words in fusions, make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit. It's an incredible effort. It really is hard work. And that's why I I liked every single essay, I read. studied and made notes on Bashar shares, if I'm pronouncing your name right, particularly struck a note with me. Because I sensed hear somebody working in a community of conflict with people developing heated emotions, not just interesting theological differences, but heated emotions rooted in political realities. And incredible need to realize we are Christians working out these realities and to understand one another's emotions, not only viewpoints.
Oh, wow.
Thank you, Kevin. You know, I was thinking as you're talking and affirming charthouse perceptions here, how that one of the the delightful things that we see happening is the south south conversations are the South East conversations that are going on that, that China and South Africa are talking to one another and have common issues of the dealing with and and can do theological work together. I think about how Latin American theology has influenced or streamed the Latin American theology, liberation theology, has found manifestation in the elite theology in India and in Jewish theology in in Korea, and their their conversations that are going on that, that just bypass the West, you know, I think about Chicago being in Denver being hubs for United Airlines, and Atlanta for Delta Airlines here in North America. But, but we're no longer the simple hub, here in the North Atlantic region. There There are the centers of Christianity are shifting some of the conversation, some of it will bypass. So the theology of land is something that is very hot within South Africa. It's hot with indigenous communities, it's hot in Israel Palestine, and we don't even know it's an issue here in North America. So there's discussions that go along, to be able to listen in on those discussions, which then drive us back to, to thinking about land, you know, as a theological category is so important, Paul, you've you've done, you've done a lot of work in this area, and ecclesiology and cultural engagement. And I've wondered, what would you say to to Doug Sweeney, as a dean of Bayesian and really to all of us, and about the these questions and balancing off the, the universal and the local and, and how do we do this?
Thank you, Jean. Thanks for the opportunity to be a part of this very enriching conversation. I think for us as educators, I think a sense of wonder, should be what permeates our being as we engage the theological discipline and also global ecclesiology Global theology. And I had the privilege of serving for a semester at the overseas ministry Studies Center when it was in New Haven now it's a theological seminary, there's a piece of art a beautiful piece of art, from a Sri Lankan artists that hangs there, and Tom Hastings, the executive director there, highlighted that in the title of the pieces. Bird birds sing St. Francis dances because it's birds singing and St. Francis of Assisi, respond to them. And we, as the reflection went by Tom, so often we see St. Francis talking to birds and the like, Here he's receiving from them. He's receiving from the birds and the the reflection went further there to MSC that we need to be having a posture, not always of moving forward. But taking in stepping back in order to move forward. I'm speaking of the American church context, my posture, as a theological educator should be one of the sense of wonder, generally, but also for the global church, we often don't know what we need to know. And I think that sense of wonder shows up even with a sense of urgency. It was alluded to earlier from one of our colleagues about suffering in the global church context, we think about the issue of land and William Jennings at Yale has talked at length reading about the need for understanding of land and that would be indigenous context here. African American, we think of gentrification, but the sense of suffering. So again, back to Doug's question, I'm thinking about myself as an educator. I don't know what I don't know. Do I have a sense of wonder and even a sense of urgency bound up with that was also mentioned earlier about the nationalism, and the like. And we have that so much a part of Christianity Today, especially in evangelical circles. We often think we're being persecuted. But I think at times, it's often a loss of Christian privilege. And I do think that we struggle in the North American context, at times with paranoia. And I think we can learn a great deal. One sense of wonder for the global churches, theology ecclesiology, we have so much to learn, the church didn't start in America, didn't start in Chicago didn't start in Portland, where I am, I should be thinking and learning at great length from people across the globe. And then lastly, just this, again, a posture kind about a posture. That's my response. As a theological educator, do I have a sense of wonder, and a sense of urgency, especially in the need for us learning from as I did, and have from people overseas in great turmoil, travel, and how their resilience can speak into us, when we feel that we're being persecuted, where it might be a loss of privilege? Where can we learn from the church abroad, we're blessed are those who are persecuted. For there's the kingdom of heaven, we can learn from them, have not a reactionary orientation, but a proactive orientation of catalytic suffering for victorious living in Christ. So those are my just brief reflections. Again, a posture of a sense of wonder and a sense of urgency that come as we learn from the global church. And step back was St. Francis, to listen well, and then respond as we move forward.
Very good. Paul, once, like you put in something into the chat here. And I know that as you've been developing the Ph D program they're at or you contextual issues are very much part of the curriculum there. And what if you could weigh in on that one?
Yeah, we just started our Ph. D. program in contextual theology. Taking the global reality very intentionally into the curriculum. Of course, Pentecostal and charismatic Christianity is the other big layer here at Roberts University. I think every school is struggling with with limited resources, and we try to create the international cohort, the immediate place I looked at was really the immigrant communities. And I realized that even in the greater Tulsa area, we have some large Burmese churches, along with African churches, Indians. And of course, we have, we have quite a diverse Native American churches. So we we were intentional in celebrating the presence of this diverse Christian traditions, cultures, with their own struggles. I think we realize that one of rich ground we are in if we we find them out. And also we don't see them as as just the resource, but intentionally inviting them to speak out to play a major role in our understanding and even shaping theology. So I mean, it was a small note that I sent to you duck.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, Doug, it just the the question that I'm so grateful for it. I've thought a lot about Birmingham and, and where you are there and the suburb where besian is, and being in this cultural mix of Birmingham, I've got Rhiannon Giddens floating through my head right now, Birmingham Sunday, about the children who died in Birmingham because of the bombing? And what does it mean to do theology? From our place? What does it mean to do theology with the history of the church with a tradition, do it globally? And then also, I think, at least for me, it's those global conversations that willingness to embrace context, and willingness to ask the question about what does it mean to live out the gospel, the practice and theology in Word indeed, in this particular place? Global theology, these folk around this table, taught me lessons that are that I, I'll never be able to repay, I owe a debt to them. In 2010, I had open heart surgery, and I almost died a couple of times. It came within a minute of deathly paddled me when I was awake, and it was grim, it was grim. And by the grace of God, I came back, you know, centimeter by centimeter I was low. But I'm laying there in the bed at Central DuPage Hospital in Winfield, Illinois, near Wheaton. And asking questions about what does it mean to do theology from this bed, after having, you know, been opened up and closed up and opened up and closed up and going through a road of hell physically. And, and I began to take a look around me, and I'm watching, you know, people from Philippines and Nigeria, taking care of me. And I began to ask them about health care where they're at and what it meant to do health care here. And, and this issue of justice came up something that Latin Americans had taught me about. And then one day a guy came in, in a blue uniform. And he was a maintenance worker. And he, he changed the PRL by the door, and I broke out in tears. Her patients were always a bit emotional. But But I broke out in tears, because I recognized that he represented this vast community of people who were taking care of me. And it was because of reading African theology, that and indigenous Christian theology, they became much, much keenly aware, much more keenly aware of the role of community in our faith, and, and sockos issues of justice, issues of economics, issues of community, and what did it mean, to live, to have violence done to me into surgery as a slow motion violence for my good and brought me back to the cross, but, but thinking about the gospel in persecution? I don't know. I think, majority world theology theologians have been willing to think about the faith in relationship to their context, and being rooted in Scripture and understand that tradition helped me to be a better theologian on a hospital bed. That's where it came down. For me, I wrote a book on it even you know, and so, you know, I'm a hospital bed theologian. But I tell ya, you know, what a benefit and I hope that all of the listeners and the readers of the transcript of this will will totally leggy, you know, will take up and read and listen and be at the table with a hermeneutic of charity. And, and celebrate and, and not a critical by any means. I mean, if we're going to respect one another, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to, you know, go at it, we'll, we'll have the debate and the dialogue with one another. And, and that's okay, that's, that's part of healthy ecclesiology, where we do have our differences, but but with starting with hermeneutic of charity, and mutual respect his fellow members of the body of Christ.
Yeah. Thank you so much, Dr. Green. And it looks like one well framed question from Dr. Sweeney might be all we need. Are there any other questions or comments that need to be made at this point?
I just want to express my appreciation for for this opportunity is really rewarding. And I often times our book is published, we begin to forget and move on. But I think you're absolutely right. This series needs to be studied revisited. And we need to just learn
from everybody.
Thank you. Amen. Amen.
Me too, I want to express my thankful for this organization and this event and particularly for the series of like, look for the from the majority words. For Okay, maybe I just response a little bit about your question like as a theological educator in in China. I think the number one thing I concerned is like we worry we lack of resources. This like to do can local or native Audrey we, we have maybe Chinese, the origin, the origins, but we all educated from the western background. So we have like, well western style of thinking of that kind of stuff. So. So I, at some point I tried to I think I keep telling myself, I may need to unlearn some DNA, learning something from from my, my college culture, or do some late TIF, theological, refraction, that kind of stuff. And I found these kinds of noises from the majority, what is very expounding? Like we can have each other some sinner voices, so like, really helpful. So, so I'm really thankful, like you have this kind of concern to publish this series of books that you have the global globalized voices from all parts of different nations is particularly from the majority word in really helpful. Yeah, for I mean, for me, for my Chinese colleagues to do bad, like contextualized, the logical thinking, thinking there. Yeah.
It's so important, I think about, you know, the work that colleague kk yo has done in for China. And if you haven't read musings with Confucius and Paul, there's deep dialogue between the Confucian analysts and the the book of Galatians. Very, very interesting, challenging study, but but again, you know, taking seriously the need for the development of Chinese theology, and he always viewed his work, he views his work as a prolegomena. to that. So a child you got you got a lot of work to do. You got a lot of work to do.
Lots and lots of good books, but most of his books in English, not in Chinese IP, we need more Chinese books.
I think I think he told me he's got about 25 in Chinese though, so I'm not Yeah, I have to ask him, where to get them. But I know they're around. And unfortunately, I haven't learned Chinese yet. So
we're intensely grateful. Dr. Green and and all of you who have contributed we're intensely grateful for your contributions, which which continue to reorient our work and thinking, Dr. Ma, would you be willing to close us in prayer, please,
by all means, Let's pray. Lord, what a joy it is. That you are a creator. And you create a new spaces in spite of this ever challenging pandemic, but you are always create creating something new. We just want to thank you. And I pray that this conversation will only the beginning and this will increase in e6 extent. And there will be enrichment of your church to know who you are and what the body of Christ is like. Thank you. Thank you, bless one or all of us and protect everyone in Jesus name.
Amen. Amen.
Amen. Amen. Well, thank you, Jonathan, for Thank you, Jonathan, for organizing this and all of you around the table. Here. It's been wonderful to see you Sorry, I haven't seen a long time and just a joy to see your faces. And really, this is representative here we are from around the globe doing this so thanks be to God.