Hey, welcome everyone. This is an this is the very first second episode that we do actually in real life. And it's actually very fun to do in real life way more engaging for me, we were engaged for the US and we didn't have our audience because we have like a very complicated schedule in these last days. So we're just like, make made it work. And I have with me here, Alberto to UT, which is a friend of mine. And it's also very professional in the field augmented reality computer graphics. And really to honor for me to have him here. Really, in front of me this kind of like we're we set up everything this we workspace with a really cool, I'm gonna just like take a picture. And, yeah, like this is also one to remember that this this kind of podcast is something I do purely for fun is not no one is paying me to do a I'm not supporting the work of anyone. I know, I'm gonna create any conflict from where I work to other, you know, places where the guests that I have here worked or are currently working. So it's like literally for fun talking about AR and connecting people increasing, improving our community. So yeah, let's get to a character's story. You've been moving also from Italy. So is in common? Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your story and where everything started. How did you end up being here in America first us? Yeah. And then also, how did the AR scene AR feel when you picked it up? How long was it go? Yeah, and all of that detail. So you want to provide
first of all honor to be on the podcast as well. I mean, I've been wanting to do it for ages. So it's really great. So thank you for having me. That's in need of that. And yeah, so I guess my passion for programming really started when I was much younger, I was about I mean, 10 or 11, or something. And I remember, at the time, I kind of figured out that I was pulling out of GTA San Andreas, a lot. I've been I was a little older than I was like, 1314. Anyway, I was doing a lot of it. And I kind of figured out that you could mark the game, you could put like, like Lamborghinis in the game, like the best players in the game and stuff. So I'm having a lot of fun. And I think out of like, just I was so enjoying the game that I figured out option, you can change some files, some text files and things happen. And kind of that led me more and more into like looking into how okay, I can write things on this computer. And I don't only have to play it, I can actually make it do stuff. And so that's kind of like how I started programming essentially, and kind of, I went into this path of working in 3d. And still to this day, I work on TV. And so that's how I kind of got I got started. And then I product reason I moved to the UK, and wherever they seem to study at a university there, which is where it's called other data on me, which is where the creators of Rockstar Games started as well. So it's a very tiny place. But it's really, really great for video games. And so I studied the 3d games programming that you did, thanks because Cool School, computers Getting Technology degree. And so through that as well, I graduated from there and I did a lot of projects in 3d. One of them actually won a BAFTA, which was pretty cool. I've been called them on the stones that I'm still super proud about. And I had a lot of the team that worked with me on that it was amazing.
Maybe we can just drop it into the pod, if I find new, send you the video we have on YouTube.
Yeah, it's still like a great memory. So I have a lot of fun doing that. And then I was doing a lot of 3d graphics programming. And like also that was getting interested in more and more into compute shaders and GPGPU. Because it's it was very similar to what you do when you write a pixel shader. It's just that you do it for not for graphics, the theory. And there's an amazing company in Edinburgh called Coldplay softer, which is where I got two internships before I actually landed a job there once I once I graduated. And that's how I continued to be in the 3d space. And then what happened was that AR two came out in 2017. I think it was that I had just graduated and I kind of saw it and I was like, that's interesting. And suddenly it dawned on me that all the things that I was doing for video games before that I knew like 3d graphics and 3d programming that I could apply it to real world scenarios that were not necessarily video games, but essentially what you were making with AR kit was a video game. I mean, the graphics rendering stuff on screen. So I started spending a lot of time on that until I couldn't think about anything else. And and then I went and I started doing My own thing, essentially, well was in the UK, and did a ton of experimentation with AR kit. And iOS. And I did a bunch of demos. Still, I find it pretty interesting. Not many people yet have kind of like, read on that. I think it's because you know, people have tried it. It's like a gimmicky thing, or now, at the time, a lot of people were thinking, I think like, oh, you know, you'd be pieces everywhere. Ai glasses are just around the corner. So let's build a lot of experiences. It didn't turn out to be that way, as we as we all know. But I think from that, it was very interesting, because a lot of the people that are still knowing the AR VR space, they're still around, and they're like, very big companies doing really cool stuff. So yeah, that's that's how I got into AR basically.
Amazing. So iOS AR kit. So yeah, I mean, as a freelancer I also worked on mainly, like we unity always. But yeah, iOS apps. Like I think a lot of clients were like, can you put this on my iPad? It was initially for architecture and things like that. So yeah, so like your, your, say your, your special powers are more like, on the graphics side of things from my understanding shader pixel shaders, like, I mean, it's like, usually is that like, I know, a lot of teams I worked on the shader guys are very, you know, very valid asset, because like, not everyone wants to spend time on like that kind of, you know, shader optimization, shader creation is usually like, you know, a very specific skill. What is that what you work the most? Or like, you're also expanding out of fields, right? What do you enjoy the most?
Yeah, that's a cool question. Because I used to be the kind of guy, especially after my experience of code play, that I had a Linux machine where I didn't even have a GUI, I had just a terminal, you know, and I would open windows into the window manager when I needed. So I was very much more into antibody, I'm by no means like, a shaders wizard or anything like I think I just really enjoyed what you can put on screen through shaders and and what they enable you to do, and sometimes, especially on mobile, if you want to have a fluid experience, you kind of have to go and optimize because you don't have the same power that you have on a you know, a laptop or something like that. Right? And so out of necessity almost sometimes you have to especially but then, when I had the when I started working on AI K, I have an iPhone, I see the very first one, because I just bought the cheapest iPhone possible that could let me do ar I was an iPhone SE. So the MacBook Pro, my girlfriend, and because I didn't have a MacBook, I have no reason not to waste it surely never does i Okay, I'll just figure this out. And so what I'm what I started liking, also building the whole the whole experience instead of just like, little vertical. And so I know I enjoy both. But I think it's really great to have his background in 3d graphics, but by no means a wizard or anything. But like, I can reason through it, I can optimize stuff if I have to, I can write, you know, fragment shaders that need to be written like, I mean, back in the day, by back in the day, I just mean like, say eight years ago, or something like that. I was working on with Bolcom, for example. And then I switched to metal because of iOS. So I would say I enjoy both both sides of it. Like it, they kind of go hand in hand, I think and they will go for a long time because doing stuff on mobile is is a little harder than on our normal machine because you don't have all the power possible in the world. And so, again, out of necessity, even if you don't want to you kind of wind up looking into this stuff.
Yeah. And it's a very great transition and talent to bring into augmented reality because that's basically like what AR does, like every AR headset basically a phone on your eyes, you know, right? Yeah. To simplify, simplify very much, but yeah, like I remember there was like actually this this ad said that I remember I was it was one of the first one I tried to do just like blogging. Oh yeah. Mira Mira. Yeah, Mira. And then it was like also these VR headset. It was like clean, you know, like Google cardboard. Cardboard. Samsung.
Yeah, the Samsung one. That was great. Actually.
I worked for our game company that actually had
like,
I would say like, 50 of those for like, my experiences with kids. Yeah, kids were going crazy. Yeah, I was like, man. Yeah. And yeah, it was it was great. Like so you. Let's talk a little bit about like you, you move from there to California. So, you feel So I'm here in San Francisco. So this is, you know, sometimes I visit pretty often, but seems like, every time I come here, there is so much energy, like people wants to do everything. I see people working so hard. And even like, when you consider in parties, the parties are always oriented to a networking way. You you very much like find people who are super, no. Smart, and they're doing something you never thought of like, what's what's been your why you moved here for school? Like, in what do you think this place is giving you so far?
Yeah, that's a great, that's a good question. So it's because I wasn't planning on moving to the US. I never thought that I would do it. So at the time, I was, I mean, it was in my mind, because I was trying to run my own company, and we kind of started eating. So I mean, I knew about Y Combinator and all these things. And so I was like, you know, possibly at some point, it could make sense to try and no hope there maybe find funding or something, because at the time was trying to build. Well, I built like an MVP of I think I showed you as well, last night, I don't remember it. But anyway, his end to end 3d reconstruction system that they will let you do Interior Design remotely. And I got really close to getting funding. But at the time, because of photogrammetry was you were very limited by the kind of outputs you were getting. So it was a great product. And but at the same time, that allowed me to then switch a little bit gears to more large scale augmented reality. And I worked with some really great people that a company logo called scape technologies that they they were bought by Mehta, by Facebook at the time was called Facebook. And they were doing like localization visual based localization system. And one of the things I worked with them was building like demo apps, showcasing like your basic reality at scales,
exhausting images to localize Exactly. I think,
if I remember correctly, it would upload an image to their server and run on his land. But the pipeline essentially to localize you more precisely that the GPS. And I have some really cool anecdotes from promise days, but we can go over them after
you're free to expand, like, so I
used to live in Edinburgh at the time, not London. And so they actually have to run some AWS pipeline to produce them up for any rep just for me, so that they can test the app and localize. And most of the sample was just on steps outside of a house with my laptop, pointing the phone up and doing stuff. And one time because I was spending a lot of time pointing my phone and potholes because that's how the system vocalized. They don't like it apartments. And I remember one time I was working for, I think I even thought that I was like, I was actually approached by someone very angry, asked him like, why I was filming their house.
And I was like, no, no, I love building as I do with
it. Yes, I have to go and then try again the next day, something that happened in the cold. But anyway, the reason I'm saying that is because what is wired. And I mentioned able to America because I was working on these things, and kind of being vocal about it on Twitter, and other social medias. And when they just wake up and I have an email from Apple, asking me to you know, if it was interested, and at the beginning, I almost thought it was a scam was going on? Unfortunately, but I kind of I was like, okay, and then then it kind of, you know, kind of realized, okay, this is for real. And I was kind of realizing like older people, I think at the time that AR was cool on phones and all but it wasn't, that was just a glimpse into what it was going to be eventually, you know, we all knew that. I think after two, three years, what two years of like protecting these things and seeing other people on Twitter. Like I mentioned, Oscar Palmer is really great. And you build some amazing prototypes. I think I really I think I follow him on Yeah, and so people like him, you know, we're still we're still in touch with each other. But we all kind of understood at that point, I was okay, maybe it's gonna be a bit longer. So a lot of the people that went into seem I found that Apple essentially like a lot of them and when I joined those like, Oh, you're here or you're here and a lot of people were there which was cool. So anyway, you know, I got this this interest from Apple to work on a rvr and I thought you know, what the heck you know, I get to position maybe move to California and work on stuff that I really love. So I gave it a go almost thinking never gonna get the job. No chance. And and it wasn't the way back and I got it and then I was like, Okay, I guess I guess I'm moving to California. So go here. Yeah,
okay, cool. Well, it's it's, it's great to see like sometimes like, i i Some people reached me out I like oh my gosh, Like AR like I want to work in ADR or something like that. It's such a small team. After all that, you can see, like, at least in this moment, I feel like you can still leverage quite a lot you're settling, you can very much like, do something and be visible to a lot of people. Like, if you, you see a lot of a lot of demos on Twitter, right. And I think if you just make your own twist of those, I had a lot of, you know, thoughts on these demos. I'm like, dang, if I do that, I'm gonna just do it. You know, I'm just gonna be going up and ever do it sometimes. Because, you know, timing. You've been here for how long?
About three years and a half now? something's
gonna happen. So, planning to stay more or?
Yeah, for sure. And I'm sorry, I think I didn't answer one of your questions before. I think you said what I'm getting from from being
from being an SF. Yeah, yeah. If you want to, I think a lot of people like I had also myself, like, a moment in my life, and we're, like, shouldn't go to like, I've been in LA a while. Yeah, just like go to SF. Why? Well, you know, what was the struggle that I need to go through? I know here is very expensive, but also gives you a lot if you're in the field. So yeah, well, tell me your your thoughts, your interpretation so far.
First of all, you know, I, I don't live in a ship I live in a place called Senegal made up just a little bit
that for who doesn't know is like down like the South Bay, kind of South Bay, like, whenever we come here,
yeah, from something like that. It's basically kind of what you would call actual Silicon Valley, I suppose. Which is like, south from San Mateo down, probably even a bit north there. But like, you take some time off there, you go down south until you get to the bottom of San Jose, maybe a little more dark. Anyway, it's kind of there in the middle. And what I found is that definitely the the kind of people that you can meet in San Francisco, and obviously ones that may be up to the South Bay. Also, because of the South Bay, there just aren't as many opportunities of doing this kind of networking, where you just show up at some random events, like they just don't happen to South Bay, basically, these kinds of events. That's not to say that you cannot make people I think you just need to be a little more intentional, kind of like maybe reached out on LinkedIn. And I have made a lot of friends from by reaching out on LinkedIn, and they live in the South Bay. So then, you know, we got sharp and go for dinner or something. But it's it's definitely less convenient to think compared to to San Francisco. But having said that, San Francisco has also been great for me to do also this kind of spontaneous networking. But I have found time and time again, at least in my life, that it doesn't really matter. You know, we almost where you are now that we have we've had the internet for years, and especially after COVID that managed to put good stuff out on the social social media, like Twitter, tick tock forever, it kind of doesn't matter where you are, like, it matters in the sense that okay, if things get pretty exciting, then maybe you know, if you're like in the California area, I think you even need to be in San Francisco, or maybe like in the New York or California or like the London area, you're not really missing out too much. By not being like in Silicon Valley, I think I think you know, you would still have to travel and like, because that is where the big deals happen, if that's what you're trying to do. But at the end of the day, I think someone was like putting out really like extremely high quality content. The end of the day, that's been my experience at least like you know, I was never I never had like a problem. For example, in for example, getting a job at Apple just because it wasn't Scotland instead of
I mean, you literally got a meal.
Sure. That's, that's what I'm saying. Like, people like me who did the work unnecessarily because when he argued where I could come up, like it was very kind of uniformly distributed. I think, like, a lot of people from all over the world that were like experimenting with stuff. Yeah, like I couldn't name a lot of people that I know, they're still around doing this amazing stuff in AI that, yeah, they were very uniformly distributed. So and those were the best they were necessarily the people who were here, for example, everything that will go down eventually. Yes, a lot of those were kind of gathered by Apple.
Yeah, here but it's like a safe bet. But at the same point is not what matters the most
if you're if you're trying to do your own thing, I don't think so. It matters in the sense that you can come and raise capital much more easily if you're around here, but you know, more or less not bad again, being here. huge advantage. Yeah. 100% But not only a bunch of just fun as well. Very like minded people that Yeah, it's hard to find somewhere else.
I can say it's really like a status or something like more about choosing your lifestyle because yeah, yeah, I can like I can see that like being in a community of people that are trying really to achieve their goals and it's like probably the biggest bet of their career to grow. We prepared this moment for for a while. Because you know, like media sales you like do people that are trying to do stuff of every age. And everyone comes from very different cultures yesterday night we met actually together we had dinner with someone from Japan. It was Yeah, exactly. And like, people who move here because they want to raise 100%. And so I would see, I would see this displace really like as a as a safe bet for doing your own thing not necessarily working for a company
exert. Yeah, yeah, no, I
agree. And but yeah, both ways. It's always gonna work out well, I think just more of a choice, like a very expensive place to leave, you can find your way around it, you need to, you know, eat everything is possible. As long as you commit,
I think you will find yourself be much more familiar, compared to I mean, because you're from LA, right, comparing, yeah, I think you will find a big familiar, it's kind of like, super spread, you know, urban sprawl. There are some really nice places down there as well, like, you know, it's just much more kind of like, distributed instead of concentrated like, like in San Francisco, right.
So before you said, like, you mentioned kind of a funny episode that where someone just like told you, why are you filming me or something like that. And I actually want to bring it up again, because when I was doing, I was doing this kind of thesis project in 2017 18. And I remember, we were filming a lot of places, because we're using AR around the city. And we have all these concepts in our project where you just like, look in murals and murals are animated, it was like, kind of very artsy, beautiful project. And, and I remember a lot of people pick this up from some going out some private from some properties, because they realize they're like, What are you guys doing? Delete the video, show me what you're doing. And I was like, we were just, we just wanted to target. Yeah, and so there because there was also an architecture school, there was all this there is always a discussion of like public and private space, what it means to be private, what it means to be public, if this kind of like digital assets are all around the city, and there is some kind of location based system, how these spaces are going to be organized, how these spaces are going to be like, how can I say consumed? I remember that I was in Aw, in 2018. And there were this, this team of guys that did like something cool. It was like the YouTube over mented reality. So every channel was like a totally different overlapping of the seating, okay, and every, every different, it was a proof of concept ubiquity6 By any chance? No, I think it was uauy or something like that. But it was pretty radical project like so they have like different channels or reality. And you could just go around in the space that they mapped. And in their small sample space, you can really go through a different kind of style of space. And they also tried to come up with like a some monetization model, which I always find very hard to understand when it comes to digital assets he was totally is like until is a little tricky. We've seen a lot of stuff going on crypto, but don't go that route. But I thought that the idea was pretty spot on, like the fact that you can eventually one day having your AR glasses and set up things that you want or you don't want to see. And I find if if done in the right in the right way that could be very helpful. So I think what what do you like what do you project in terms of like, and without even mentioning the latest announcement on AI that we can arrive later? But like what do you project the use of augmented reality glasses good to be when we let's suppose that we have the form factor that everyone is looking for what what for you would be the main use and your typical day with a pair of VR glasses? What would it be?
Yeah, that's a great question.
It's not like a one word answer, you know, like
no. I think like the obvious, I think that there are obvious things that everyone thinks about, like, for example, overlaying content in front of you kind of all the time. I feel like that's probably going to happen with less visuals, lower probability that that's going to happen. And maybe there is more that it will surface information to you in front of you when when you actually need it. So for example, I find myself I found myself in situations where I'm like working on my motorbike for example. And I wish so much that I had something that just projected in front of me what I'm supposed to do, or whatever other information is contextually useful for what I'm doing in that very moment. Because my hands are already busy, like so. So now you have to put your phone somewhere and kind of look at it, or like, a lot of workers go around with tablets, you know, and they have to, like, put the tablet to do stuff, and then look at the tablet. Again, you know, in any kind of industry, this happens to me, by now, goblins are kind of pervasive, they're everywhere. But I think the next step that is going to happen there possibly, is that, you know, you reduce the amount of you have you removed that the need to have like a screen physical in front of you, and possibly have this information displayed to you in context where you actually need it. Because that's an actual useful use case, I think, where we don't have to think too hard about whether people will like it, like, I think a lot, anyone who's got like, like, even like a kind of more manual job, if their hands are free, and they don't have to look at a tablet or phone anymore. You know, and now with all of these advances in, in that large language models where you know, you're getting to the point where you can talk to them, you know, and then you have the you can do the stuff they can be told they can be told to you. It gets really interesting and useful. I think at that point, even if you completely ignore the media and kind of entertainment side, which will always also be gigantic, but I am less certain about what direction does go into sake, I think because I think there are so many kind of famous popular apps for social media that if you were to think about them before they actually happened, I feel like you you wouldn't, you wouldn't think about it necessarily, it just kind of happened and you like, of course Instagram is, of course, of course big talk, right? Of course. I mean, why wouldn't you have like a continuously humanity, you know, that was fine. Like it didn't really take off. Right? Right. So you couldn't even discarded the idea. So you're gonna get you're gonna look the vine and said, that's, that's a silly idea. No one wants it. So you know, like, and it's hard to predict what the large population is going to be like or not. Whereas in terms of your COC, I think this kind of applications will almost definitely be useful and kind of like, happen, I think, I mean, there's a chance they won't, but I think there's a good chance that those will happen.
Second, continuous evolution of like, whatever, like, what the person needs, right? How does interface looks like? Because I remember, like, it was a while you didn't go to Facebook. And some months ago, I remember just wanting to check like a birthday or friend of mine. Oh my gosh, the interface of Facebook ad compared to you know, like some other apps like Instagram or Tiktok. I felt very, like, it was like, this is like, things that led to the the drain. Yeah. Like, we are going back in time, like, it was something of the past, like I still works, and there is a lot of value. But still, I was like, dang, I think that you know, they definitely went through another direction with Instagram, and then tick tock picked up from there. So it's sort of an evolution, and very, very interesting how things evolve. And the same thing goes for also AR glasses. I mean, just looking at, you know, some AR glasses of some years ago, is incredible. Like it's incredible. Really the I'm pretty bullish at least on the evolution of these things, because they're getting very much like there is a progress constantly. In also, like, you know, like thinking about working with Unity, like remember unity five, and look at unify like, Oh my gosh. It's crazy. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it's very interesting. I think that's something we should talk about. And it's unavoidable to, to just like, you know, not including in the conversation is like this AI way. That is, I don't want to say boom, but like confirm now, because it's been a while is going on. And also probably one of the next guest is going to be a friend of mine, which he works as a UI engineer, because I really wanted to include someone that knows what we're talking about, and to learn from people. And yesterday night, we were at the AI meetup in San Francisco, which I found very cool, very beautiful place. And a lot of people that were trying to do some startup or moving their pivot, because that's what they do. They just constantly pivot in something that is more sexy for VCs to drop their money on it. I mean, that's, that's the game right as you need to play the game and there were like a lot of people that were using AI in a very interesting way. Whoo hoo for recruitment, who for Western that guy that we talked to
one of them was working to help desk, the people working? There you go. Yeah.
So like a lot of cool ideas. What What I also played a lot with like stuff like language models, and civil diffusion is very accessible. Yeah, everything is super accessible, you can literally put yourself out there and create your own chargeability in a relatively short amount of time, like nearly two, three days, like it's a weekend project. And then depends if you want to, like, bring it on to people you want to apply it, that might take a little more, but if you really want to get started, it's just really a work that is under a week of time. In very accessible terms, there are API's that are so abstract that really everyone can do. No excuse. What do you what do you think? Like, did you ever tried to play with something like this so far? And how do you see, like, we were having a discussion the other day, and I think we both agree that, like, whenever balloons so fast, it's never really the same. I don't know if it was like this with you. But whatever it happens, so fast is never the final, you know, product, never
the final logic we were I think we were Yeah.
But it's something that is like, you know, there's probably going to be an assemble of tools. And those assembled tools are going to make a product. So like, well, how, if you can pick all of this, you have like a problem you like you're a big fan of AI tools. That's a cool one, I
can get indigestion you eat too much.
Yeah, you're gonna get very, very sick. But if you have like your, your, here, your tools in front of you, what would you pick? And how will you assemble them
together? So first of all, I think you I mean, I think very recently, I mean, other companies are closing, I think other retailers in from just doing large language models are building on top of them to building like, plugins, that kind of connect to the larger language model and using the language model for like, like, as a central hub, kind of a little bit like, like a processor to which you give modules. And then you go from the processor to the software that to which you get modules, right, I think it's getting kind of like, in this way, which is really cool. And so I think possibly, one of the interesting things would be to give tools to, to an LLM, like we all know how to learn more explain our thing. So it's not really like intelligent in that sense. Like, it's just, you know, it's got a lot of context. And so it's able to reason about this large context and almost seem like it understands you. So think definitely one of the most interesting things will be to make this context larger and bigger and bigger. I recently saw a paper that seems very interesting about I think it was staking from like, it was multiplying the number of tokens that you could include in this in the large language model from I think, I don't even I'm gonna I'm gonna say numbers that I'm getting right, I'm getting wrong. But basically, it was more than one language bother my vision. But then what you have currently, in the current versions of language models in terms of the amount of tokens that you can have in flight, that it understands and processes, right, I got a much larger number, meaning that maybe you wouldn't even need to have these like vector databases to give it memory. You know, if we just have a big enough context that we don't get any way more optimized, just pull everything in it just it just knows it knows that it can reason about it. So but then again, you know, it's not great at doing mathematics. It's so great at doing this kind of tasks that maybe like other tools already do really well. And in fact, the super compelling use cases that Wolfram Alpha combined with Chuck EAPC, where Chadli knows how to use the API Wolfram gets a reply back. So Wolfram does all the math, or the crazy map that maybe you need to do, and then you get a reply back in text. And that's it, you know, and then you're good. So is that
can we excited? Collaborate? Yeah, exactly.
So that's really cool, I think, and stable diffusion and all these other AI tools for image generation also really been pretty interesting. I think those ones are, I mean, it's probably next month, there's gonna be like, an even 10 Methanex better version of what we have today. Probably, yeah, it's super easy. I think it's, you can see other people putting out a lot of really cool examples. But the outcomes that you get, just now wouldn't be journey or all these other things aren't always great. You know, like, you can select the ones that look really great and be like, Oh, look what you've done. It's amazing. Dewpoint it's amazing. But the truth is that you're not getting consistently good now yet, it's going to happen. Yes, just yet, whenever I think we only allow, although it's still kind of random, more or less, you can kind of know kind of be sure that you're gonna get consistently good advice. When I say lambs, I really just mean chatting with you these days, and you're seeing competitors coming in. So that could change really fast. And suddenly, you can choose between 10 different providers have the same kind of quality, you know, like, I think there's going to be definitely a race to the bottom here, where now suddenly, instead of costing, you spend $1,000, a day on your startup to run, charge up, keep readies, it's gonna cost you 10 in Baghdad, kind of like you don't even think about getting the internet anymore, right? Like you just use it. Like, when you call someone in Europe, you basically don't pay anything. And I think it's going to be the same kind of like, explosive cost reduction. So that's going to be commoditized unless something changed the thing. So the challenge becomes, okay, everyone has access to it. It's super low cost. What can you build something that's interesting. The question is like, I don't know, I mean, maybe, like, it seems like every day, companies are built on top of that, and they say, Oh, we do music, some producing producing music with Chatterjee I don't even know something like that week after it's integrated some plugin. So yeah, interesting times. But
there is something about when something is so easy to achieve, there must be something 100 Meaning that if you put so so far, let's say that right now, when you create a project, you put like this amount of effort, right? And then we tried to be at the amount all of these models, the implementation, you put it on, and effort becomes like 1/10, right? I don't think that, especially in America, I don't think that people stop to work after they actually
are most excited about right, I have so many ideas going on in my head all the time. And if I can just make it make them happen much faster. Thanks to these tools. I'm all in right now. Not as a programmer, you could say, Oh, my God, you know, it's gonna take my job. Like, this is what it's gonna take the boring parts, possibly, yeah, like you say, say that we get to the point where you're literally just asking the thing to do things for you. That's when programming becomes right. I'm fine. Because I have so many things that I want to try and do. And I can just like BOO, BOO, BOO, BOO, BOO, BOO invested. That's cool. Yeah, that's
a very positive view. I think I've never seen like, you know, like, I think media like, like, very, like the drama. I'm sure every time just see on Twitter and things. But yeah, this is actually what I what I see kind of coming back from a lot of people are working the environment and like, now I have like 10 ideas, I can do them all right, don't need to like just centered my attention and my time just on one end, if something doesn't work, well, there is another idea because that's, that's, you know, making mistakes is all about, like, it's like, you know, like to try something into something or something. So, if now you can do that faster. It's really augmenting your possibilities. It's just a very positive, you know, outcome. Of course, there are always risk and all like that. But, you know, nothing's going to change from the terms of like, sizing and all those things like I've seen like, identically Yes. So, can you tell us some or is something top secret, not a good one.
In general, I buy a lot of ideas, even little things, like, for example, be working on an app called lie they are, it doesn't make reality for artists. And generally, I was I was finishing it up some things up there. And I realized I only had Italian in English. And I was like, okay, you know, a lot of my users are in chat, but in China actually loads of them. And recently had a spike of like, 3000 users in China. So I was like, okay, you know, like, media should be translated to Chinese. And what I did was I just wrote very quickly, a Python script, don't translate, like, look it up and put the stuff in there represent everything. And okay, I was very skeptical. I was like, it's generally going to translate it correctly. Right? So what I did was I picked the languages for which I have friends that speak the language, so they Portuguese, Spanish, French, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and Italian so that I could also cross check it, and it just gave it give me the languages and it works basically flawlessly, right. So some something like that. I would have thought of some doing something like this. Before we get to camedia. We'll have to connect to Google Translate API and figured out how to do the thing but like, now, we'll just have to I'd like a cleverly formatted prompt that will output the text that I wanted in the right way. And you know, when when you get the text to limit that to some degree, you just get the message, you repeat it back in, and you wait until you do the whole thing. And, you know, not my app is like incredible languages or something like, like that. So I mean, stuff like that. I mean, it's nothing special. It's just like, I could do it in like, physically a night. Literally. I usually do it in a night. I mean, then I cross check the languages, but I mean, the actual code. Yeah. And before, maybe we'll have to spend time like figuring out on Stack Overflow, or how do I
come? How do I call? Yeah, what service?
Things like these? Yeah, it just, it just makes you be super productive. And yeah, so yeah, that's the kind of thing I mean, not even not necessarily, like huge projects, just even like, Okay, I need this tool, right, as it exists, let's build it, it's gonna take me a long time with this, you know, either you use it to figure it out, or you use it to actually build a tool on top
of that, right. And sometimes I feel like the use of friction via is experienced very similarly with the AWS services. And I was looking into, I was like, Okay, I need my app to have something like a bucket and somebody drives right or even just, like, am I excited to do that? Definitely not like, it's not gonna change my life, right? Just gonna do it, I need to store an image. So I just like asked, and then, you know, like, it was a great speed up, I was like, keeping these, you know, I would have probably just woke up tomorrow and say, Oh, my gosh, I need to work on that instead of like, you're doing a one night in your like job. And then you can focus on the fun part. So you have more time to say, okay, maybe I can add a different features to my app, and maybe app are gonna become way smarter than you expect, like, what there is that like users, you're gonna have way more expectations after they see what's possible. Yeah. And they say, like, oh, my gosh, that app is doing this. This one, it's not like, it's gonna be like a new generation, like 3.0. So
yeah, I totally agree with you being super cool. speedups, from, like, asking you to produce code for you that Felony or code that you just need to get done. But the truth of the matter is, even though we have had Stack Overflow for ages, you still cannot kind of copy paste it like you can, you have to think about integrating in your app, and you know what's going to happen? It's stuff that you're not excited about. I mean, some people will be just fine. But I think most people who just want to get the meaty blocks, especially in AR VR, right? Like, especially if you don't want to spend too much time worrying about storing files in buckets, like you just want Okay, give me the file, put it back. And then you know, I want to focus on the
interaction Exactly. About that. And then I think a lot of people, so they stopped too. So he go, okay, yeah, he's gonna take a job, right? And they just go that that's the statement. And just what when there is beyond that, like, takes your job. And that you can you can do the same, you can still use AI, you can still use the eye and say, okay, hey, I lost my job, can you make an app for me that can create revenue, good, like you do it, the other people do it. It comes down to a point. And it's like, what's the best stop? Yeah, which is exactly the same that we are now like, it's just like a different offer in the market, and everyone can do it. And so like, the ideas in the end are constantly the things that winning.
Exactly, and I think one of the, it's actually really exciting in a way because it will enable more and more people, I think, to be able to have possibly careers, or even just side projects that are more about their, their passions and their artistic side, because maybe before they would have had to spend a lot of money or something consulting with someone to even get, like, maybe they have an app idea, maybe they're pretty good musicians. And maybe we can get to the point where, you know, they can have this app produced for them. But then originality is the part that they have fun doing. And they don't have to worry about this other side, you know, and kind of build their own brand around, not around the AI just around themselves. Because they have also made out a lot of the kind of political and boring but kind of like I have to do task, instead of this is what's going to really set me apart or at this is what I enjoy doing.
Absolutely. And whenever it's
really exciting, and surely enough, not everyone will be happy about this. But I think there is there is no stopping this basically, unless something will really placeholder already and we don't know that could happen.
Yeah, there are large sections that's going to be you know about I can't like how can you really stop it you know, it's very attainable.
If, if it's going to stop I think it's going to be the tech somehow we kind of we don't know yet but we kind of hit the like the maximum of this book already. And we don't know now we're excited and everyone's going to figuring it out. I'm not saying this is going to happen. I'm saying that's not
to keep your mind open. You never I think
there's a good chance we're not nearly close to the, like the end of this local like, phasing out. I think we're just still going out. Yeah, crazy. Absolutely. So I
completely agree starting from, you know, I seem like, yeah, I spend a lot of option I'm like, Yeah, this is like a cool demo and I can see how this was gonna evolve later. Yeah. And like we were having in the last one of the last episode, actually, a lot of guests that I kind of what I what I kind of brought up at the end of the of the episode was, like, I noticed something in common with all of you guys, because it was like a four, four people podcast, and all people that worked in AR, there was the LA protests and I people that are this been an environment for a while. And they all worked in like very big, big companies for a very long time. And then, with this AI wave, someone really of them took the stand to this, like, kind of like, resize their career, and start to be not only like a creator, but also like a very technical, like, you know, they all kind of engineering background, and being like, like, exactly like you said, like a creator of yourself, like creator of your ideas, and kind of almost like an independent powerhouse, you know, right. And not that I really, I think, I don't really like too much the the, the economy of the creators, because I think you are kind of pushed every day to speed stuff out in being like, on the, in the feet, like, you need to be like, constantly, like, it's not a kind of a nice life, if you
need to be the kind of person who was that? Yeah, I did it when I was freelancing. And it wasn't the thing that came to me most naturally, I kind of learned to, like, be out there, like, put stuff out on Twitter, write medium articles and stuff like that. But I think yeah, so people really enjoy it. And it's not a struggle to them to do it right away. And that those very shy in that stuff. And that's the kind of people you want to hide at your startup from like media, you know, when summer media manager like social media management to kind of like being out there and doing outreach?
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I was talking to them, and I think like, especially the LawAll, like, he's really super active on Twitter and stuff like that, like super active. And he does very amazing, though, like the demo say that every demo that he does, like, I feel like, it's like a product, it's just built. And he just put it there. You know, I also like that that factor is like, yeah, I can do a slide down. So to get back into at some point, when you're working towards the end of the hour, so I think we should kind of maybe start a concluding income to some, like, productive conclusion. So in a way, this podcast is being created, also, for people that are very interested in getting excited about Worldstar. But looking for people that are looking for entering the career, which is, you know, like, I think, especially young people are never helped enough. In my opinion, this process of school doesn't really help you, let's be fair. So it's a lot about yourself. But then maybe would be nice to conclude with asking you what would you recommend people doing? If they're looking for a specific role that is similar to what you've done? When they should start? Or what they should understand anything that you think could be, you know, useful?
Yeah. Think that's a good question. I think so to enter the so for example, I when I started, I just think the most accessible, cheapest AR device that I get, like I said, and I think that was the right move, because it allowed me to just get my hands dirty with it. Like I think that's the most important thing so that you can start experimenting. Having like a 3d graph, no graphics, doing like just doing linear algebra. In general. If you're doing anything 3d, it's gonna be really useful. Like, you know, when I worked on Azure at Apple, it wasn't necessarily just like graphics at graphics. It was it was also like to the UX for example, or even like, the linear algebra, you know, and so if you want to introduce feel the thing, though, so linear algebra is is pretty great. And First of all, just putting out demos as much as possible, because one of the things that have reenergized me when I was starting didn't make me feel alone in doing this. And we really would like to add 20 people that I knew or that were doing this at all, or spread around the world, it was putting up his demos, very simple things. But just like seeing people get excited about what you're building, I think that's what really like drags them like improve and get better at what you do. And also build that kind of network of people around you that know you for doing SDR status, be excited. And then when it if the time comes to try and find a job in one of these companies that do Excite, you're not just Mr. Nobody that doesn't know what a Arcade is, or something like that, you know, like, you can go there and do it look kind of this really well. I've done a lot of demos. And I can remember. Yeah, so that's one of the things I think I would recommend to anyone to just like, learn something or algebra, it's not going to hurt you, it's going to help a lot.
If I'm gonna have to learn
at least if you want to do XR, some shaders, programming it by shaders, or just need fragment at this point. Okay, if you don't know, vertex shaders are that's commoditized by now, I think. Yeah, it's I don't see someone running complex vertex shaders, if they're just doing like demos and stuff. But maybe fragment shaders. Yeah. So knowing a little bit of that linear algebra, and then just starting to put out demos, even if you think there should be like, there are very few people who actually do this. Like very few, you know, and you can be one of the few who actually does this and like, that's gonna really boost your Yeah, I really think so. Because that's what I look out for and other people as well, if I mean, I'm glad you look out for but like the people that you see on your feet, that the ones you were thinking about, like, you know, the person you just mentioned, as well. Like, you see him all the time on your feet doing cool stuff, like you know, you guys, guys, guys, well, right. Yeah. So and yeah.
So yeah, you get like this, the sense of the you get the scene, right? You're kind of like in a scene, like you understand what's going on.
Yeah, so I've been helped by so many people, stop for Jacquet that, because, you know, we respected each other, because I saw their co workers saw my work and when you reach out to them, they'll be very happy to help you, you know, when you get stuck, and yeah, I think you know, me, it's easy. It's just like, being consistent, being consistent and putting out interesting demos, they don't need to be finished products necessarily at the beginning. And then you know, you can transition to a product if something sticks like I never planned like the art to be successful, but it was a silly demo. I never believed that. I'm gonna believe in it. I was just looking at let's do it. And then and when I was going crazy for it everyone meaning in the arts scene, and then well okay, then I have the confirmation. That's something I should probably put my energies on for a little bit. And all the other things that I thought would be cool to delete and materialize, etc. But this one did. And that's because I was like, let's try a bunch of stuff. So
nice. That's missing. Cool. Well, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. This is incredible. It's been cool to be in SF and hanging around for a little bit. Let's keep going with the discussion on the discord and also want to remember that now we are part of another discord, which is called AR Mr. XR and it's becoming a way bigger community. And yeah, this is the Southern Baptist right of
