Carly Campbell Podcast
11:19AM Apr 30, 2020
He's like, he had no idea what he was looking at. Come look at this. I just cracked Pinterest and I was like, I'm going, this is going to work for us. We are going to make money blogging in it. It was never gonna be about teaching people to use Pinterest, or helping other bloggers get traffic. It was always about getting traffic to my own blog. And then I had a little mastermind group. And I told them, Hey, girls, like I cracked Pinterest and they said, Okay, well, we had decided that we were going to split up the social medias. They said cable good. If you crack Pinterest, you do Pinterest, you study Pinterest, you write it down for all of us. One of them to Facebook, one of them took Twitter and we're like, we'll swap notes at the end. And then we'll only have to learn one platform will teach it to each other. So I had this book that I have written basically to check to teach my friends Pinterest. And, and then I wanted to I wanted to do this little affiliate promotion. And I just mentioned it in a couple Facebook groups where you were allowed to post post affiliate links, and I was like, Oh, and if you buy through my affiliate link, I'll give you this Pinterest guide that I've written for my friends. And this woman who got it for I gave away about 20 of them, I guess this woman got it for free for me. And then four months, she badgered me she was like, you have to make this a book that I can sell, you have to make an affiliate programme for it so that I can sell it. And her name was Teresa, I was like, 35, or whatever, I made it into a book that she could sell. And she sold like 200 of them. And then that started my email list. That's fine.
Um, that is actually really cool. I'm gonna I'm gonna let you in in a little secret. I just started pressing record. I've never done that before because it was too late. You were too excited. And I was like, This is gold. Like, this is the this is the bit I want to get on the actual podcast. Don't want me to leave that in there. I will delete and we'll start again. But are you okay to leave in?
Yeah, yeah, it's fine. If you want to leave it in this the true story. That's,
I mean, that was that was the main that was the main point of the podcast. I didn't know Hey, guys. it's Mike from Make Time Online and as you've probably heard, we're joined by Carly Campbell, from mommy on purpose.
So as you just kind of heard, I sneakily press record while she was telling me a bit of a story just because I thought it was just absolutely brilliant like what she was actually saying, but I didn't hit record early enough as it turns out, but Connie is most well known in the blogging community from her amazing Pinterest course, interesting strategies. I personally haven't taken the course. As you probably know, there's just so many things that you want to get done and so many things that you want to learn and it's something that I 100% do need to get around to because just keep you hear this from so many different people how amazing her course actually is. But just from chatting to her and seeing her in Facebook groups and things like that. You can even get so much interest animation. And you can tell that she just knows Pinterest so well. So this chat really is focused around Pinterest. And I just think there's so many little great takeaways from this chat just to grow your traffic instantly is not this is not stuff that you can try in a few weeks time or months or you know, you need to get to a certain level. This is instant things that you can do today. So, as always, I will summarise my key takeaways at the end of the podcast lasts for 45 minutes or so. But if not, just enjoy. Oh, and you can also go to the show notes and make timeline comm forward slash five, five, and there's some really cool information in there. And also you can pick up Carly's templates every month. So rather than having to pin everything by yourself, you can find out exactly what Carly is using. I think it's about 20 templates every month, go to the show notes all will be explained that
so I actually Oh, All my Pinterest success to Serega if she is listening to this girl, I've said it before I need to send her wide and flowers. Because her requesting she probably asked three times and the first time I was like, Oh, I don't think so No. And then she has to get another. Maybe I'll think about it. And then if she hadn't asked again, I never would have made the book for sale. And it's a it's a my Pinterest businesses is is a very, very successful business. I mean, the same book has evolved into a course and it still sells over 100 copies a month with no paid promotion, like completely by word of mouth which which I'm very proud of. I think that is quite unusual in this space. And so I owe it all to her.
is unusual, but it's basically called a product product Krissy I didn't know if I said that right? But
right is where
product top Chrissy is. Definitely Having said that, right. Okay. It's a it's a concept that I read in a book at MJ DeMarco like millionaire Fastlane guy.
No, I'm really bad at reading
things. Yeah, no, I always was as well. But I was just started I realised I wanted to so I started doing it but he basically describes that what you have created is called a product top cracy if I
yeah, it's basically it's basically something that's so good that just spreads because people love it and recommend it that there's no advertising needed. There's no you know, you don't, you're not going to hear listen to or get Carly's pin interesting strategies on a radio jingle or anything like that because it doesn't need it. It doesn't need it to sell basically. And that is
Oh, that's very cool. That's kind
of what you've created, which is awesome.
I never knew I wanted a product Ah, cracy.
might even say the word Say,
Hey, I think I think you got it. I'm sure I understand what you're saying. I'm sure it must be product. Yeah, yeah, that's the new word product. Ah cracy That's cool.
So like, is that actually what you did? Then you just did it to help out some friends and you're all trying to like figure out how to get traffic in different ways. And you chose Pinterest.
Yeah, and then if I if I hadn't, if I hadn't given it away, to try to make sales of this other affiliate product I literally never would have made it for sale because I mean to this day I struggle with I struggle with the idea of selling a product based on a platform that changes its mind every half an hour. So
like if you
Well, it's the truth. And if you were to buy a Pinterest course, that guaranteed you success on you know, we guaranteed success or your money back. Well, let me tell you, they're doing a lot of money. back, because you cannot guarantee success on the platform. And part of the problem is because the changes that are happened, we need to be practising them as course creators in real time, and then letting the time pass to determine if what we've done is worked or not. And by the time that time has passed, interest is already changing more things. So my product is always as up to date as it can be. We had to switch to video format, which is too bad I hate I hate video format, but because updating the written the written content was it was too cumbersome to be constantly updating it. And so there is no such thing as a as an up to date today. Pin you can be up to date with Pinterest guidelines. But Pinterest guidelines don't guarantee success on the platform. And we can see that over and over and over again.
Yeah, I mean, I wanna I'm really looking forward to digging into the whole manual and scheduling Pinterest stuff because I think your take on it is so different anyone else that I've heard, but basically I ended up like learning Pinterest just from probably in a similar way to what you said. I read an E book and then I realised this is all really out a day even though it was probably about six months old, you know, and it was just like, yeah, this is just not working like it and then I was reading really contradictory stuff elsewhere. And then I think it wasn't really from you know, Paul scrivens to Hong Kong I it was through one of his like, interesting Pinterest wherever courses with like video and stuff and, and that's where like, I started to really what it was it was been in Jeff's design, they had a design one
Yeah, a couple. Yeah. They still have a fantastic it's free now.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was always a huge affiliate. I still am like, if if you sign up on my Pinterest email sequence that is basically promoting their pin design because it was like, afford it was about $9 I think when I got it, I think it was about 50 when they started it. Yeah. And now it's free. And it's just like, you know what is so important that design is probably the most important thing. From what I've seen anyway, maybe you have a different opinion but design No.
I believe you're on the right track there. There. There is some things that if you do the wrong from the get go, like keep keywording for example, if you do that wrong, no great design will save you. But design is probably at least 50% of the battle. Yeah, if not more.
Yeah. So can you explain like, Can you explain why is manual, man like I've heard you outright say even recently, I think Yeah, trying to why is it beat scheduling? Oh, I'm still gonna fight you here.
You can and and now now. Oh my goodness. So you remember about was it three months ago when you taylan and Pinterest? Yeah.
We did that. We did that when he first came out
when they first had their big announcement about how they don't want you repeating content over and over and over and over again. Yeah, no, no.
Yeah, you did a live I think in your group. Yeah,
yes. Um, so so when that first happened, I never brought up this aspect of the Pinterest algorithm before, because I'm, honestly the way that bloggers and content creators pin with schedulers and stuff, it was impossible to utilise this aspect of the algorithm. But now, now that they've said you don't need to know your content over and over and over and over and over again. Now this aspect of the algorithm is more Or relevant and, and we are, we are able to actually utilise it now and it's called session co occurrence. And I think that it's something that when we manually pin, we naturally default to session co occurrence, because that is it's what the whole algorithm is based on the idea that there's relationship between pins. That's, that's the basis of the algorithm. They're there. They're developing relationship between pins. So when you interact with a pin, you send signals to the algorithm, and whatever pins you interact with, immediately following before. Whatever boards you pin that pin to the other pins on that board, have an instant implied relationship with the pin that you've just interacted with. So we as bloggers as content creators, when we use tailwind, we were constantly reading On board co occurrence board co occurrence is what happens when your pins exist on the same board. session co occurrence is what happens when your pins are pinned in the same session. Now, Pinterest never gives us a defined time in their. In their papers, they say pins pin within a certain timeframe. So we don't have a defined time. But we can assume that it's pins pinned within 30 seconds of each other or maybe within a minute of each other. I'm thinking more like seconds. It's I think it's more like seconds. Personally, that's my gut feeling. But when we manually pin when we're often on the platform manually pinning, we automatically pin like content. Because that's what normal users do when they're on the platform. If you sit down and you're looking at wedding flower ideas, you are pinning. Oh my goodness, if you go and look at a regular users board instead of content craters board you'll see they're pinning, they're pinning 10s hundreds of pins in the same session. And they're all related. And this pinning in the same session develops a relationship between your pins. That is one more very strong data point on top of the data that we're already giving Pinterest with our keywords and our board titles and our pin descriptions and our and our board co occurrence because we're not forgetting board co occurrence just because we can use session co occurrence now but But absolutely, you cannot replicate session co occurrence on a continual basis with a scheduler.
Gotcha. So, those two things as a board co occurrence and session co occurrence Are they the needed to help grow an account now
well Well, they just really help. Well, I mean needed is a difficult term on the Pinterest platform, because you're always going to find exceptions to the rule, there's always going to be that person that doesn't follow any of the rules, put out a great pin and got paid by the right person at the right time it went viral. based on the fact that there's a relationship between that viral pin and other pins on their own personal board, there are other great pin designs get pulled out into the algorithm too. And they went viral. And now this person's account is viral. They didn't follow any of the rules. And they're gonna blow everything I say out of the water. always gonna be that
but so far.
Yeah, viral can just, it wins on any other rules. Basically, if you
you get the right pin at the right time for the right person. It can grow your account. And yeah,
absolutely. But if you don't want to have to rely on those viral pins, and we don't because they're getting harder and harder to find, especially now that Pinterest The algorithm biases saves over clicks.
Yeah, I do. I've heard this as well. And that was actually a question I had. Is it true?
Okay? It's true. It's absolutely true. Now, it's not new though. So years ago, they tested and I'm going to say 20. In 2017. They published a paper where they tested save is greater than long click is greater than click is greater than enlargement. And then over time they moved from they moved to a binary system they tested that as well save is greater than I can't remember if they did save is greater than anything else. But now recently, they stated there biassing towards saves again.
And that kind of links on to another one that I'd written down from something I heard I don't know if it's just a myth or what, but is there a lifespan on pins like more than what they used to be, you know, like some people used to have a pin that would just sit there third position between first and fifth or something on the on the search. And it would sit there for two years, and it's just like constant traffic from that one pin.
Yes, I've also
heard now that it's almost like this is the theory that I heard is that there's almost like a lifespan for that pin. And eventually, once it hits, X number of saves or clicks or whatever, it just almost gets removed from the system. And then after a certain amount of time, it might get put back in.
So we are we are seeing basically what you described and I don't know what to think about it yet. If I mean, if you've read somewhere, somebody else's In Depth opinion on I'd be interested so like when I've lost ranking pins that ranked for a few years, I had one that made $4,000 a month that just vanished overnight. Which is Yeah, it's a really good example of why we don't rely on Pinterest traffic as our as our you know, business motor, we need to we need to be building our businesses outside of our Pinterest traffic. They are just a means to an end. But um so I have had those pins of vanish never to be seen again or never to be seen again so far, but in an update about three months ago, um, one of my very oldest pins probably probably from the second set of pins I ever made. So I think that it was probably made at the end of 2016 has has come along And it has started ranking again for for a search term. And it's bringing consistent about 1000 page views a week, it's bringing consistent traffic and it has for the past four months. So I mean, the fact that that happened with one pin to my account, is that conclusive enough to say that we can count on these old pins coming back? No. But is there hope that these old pins can come back? Yes.
Right. So that's not the same one that you just said that disappeared?
No, it's not the money pin unfortunately, that that though, I will I will share that. prior to beginning to that when it came back and started ranking again. I saved it again. I went back and I found that ancient pin and it's funny that that it happened with that one, because, um, I actually wouldn't remember this except that it was Such an old ugly pin. And when I pinned it again, I thought, is this insane that I'm pinning this ancient ugly pin again. Um, and so the copy that is, you know, back to life and ranking is not a copy that was pinned in 2016. It's a copy that I pinned very late in 2018. And it started ranking about 40 weeks after I pinned it three months ago. So that happened recently. Like, I mean, yes, I pinned it 40 weeks ago. Yes, it was a pin I created in 2016. But I pinned it, and I pinned it in late 20 1840 weeks later, it started ranking. So I guess it's been more than three months now since it started ranking. But um, but the interesting thing about that pin is that when I pinned it again, Pinterest did not aggregate it with the 2016 copies.
So what does that mean?
across the platform, Pinterest claims that all images that are identical Colour aggregate. So if you look at one pin, copy the stats on that pin copy are supposedly, the stats for that image across Pinterest. Gotcha
is not true. So it almost gave it like new.
Yeah, new stats completely new like it was a fresh pin.
Yeah, it was they saw it as a brush pen at the time, even though it was an old image.
That's interesting. So I don't know did did the one that you made in 2016 has that? Do you think that maybe you have just been removed from Pinterest all together then?
No, no, you could still find the copies of that. Right? Yeah,
it still does exist. Yeah, that kind of leads on quite nicely to what is a fresh pin? What is this? What does it like? What makes a fresh pin? You know, does it can you use the same image that or does it? You know, is it is it just changing the overlay the text overlay? Is it Changing the description like if I had a picture of a woman doing yoga, and I wrote yoga routine over it. Yeah. If I just use exactly the same image, and I put yoga routine for women, exactly the same is yoga routine for women at home. Are they all fresh images? Or does it have to be more different than that?
That's a really good question. And there are two answers.
The first answer is Pinterest official answer and that is no, that's not a fresh image, you need to change it more. The real answer is Pinterest cannot aggregate those yet. So they are in fact, fresh images at this point. Now, this is one of those things where Pinterest is always changing and working and improving. If you use the same image and change A text overlay today, Pinterest cannot aggregate it, it is a fresh image. So something I have done with great success over the past six months, is taking my most viral images, changing them slightly slight changes, putting them out again, and they pick right back up. And not not every single time. But you know, sometimes I've had instances of one pin ranking for one keyword. And then the slightly changed image ranking for a slightly different keyword, both, you know, equally powerful pins on the platform, none aggregate because they can't aggregate them with those slight changes now, so one thing to be aware of though is that by using the same image, you are developing a relationship between your pins so because Pinterest is always developing relationship between pins relationship between pins is the fact that the algorithm is built on. And if you use the same image, those pins are going to be strongly related. But a lot of us use stock images, I use stock images. They're also going to develop relationship to all the other pins that use that image across the platform. So that can be detrimental, depending on the pins that they develop relationship to.
Your own unique images that you take
and upload to the platform will I mean statistically like so you're going to have your own exceptions in your own account, but statistically, your own unique images will outperform stock images. And stock images will outperform free I got these off Google Images.
Right. So brand new images. are basically always going to win.
Yes, yes. I mean, there's always going to be exceptions to the rule.
Yeah, unless they're really ugly.
Well, yeah, some people will even say like, Oh my goodness, this really ugly pin is bringing my top, you know, it's my job traffic refer. Or sometimes you'll just get really lucky, you'll get a really good viral, free, you know, you get a viral pin with a free documents that you've got off Google. Don't expect to be able to replicate that over and over and over. Whereas if you're using your own images, or if you're using paid stock images, you should be able to replicate your success based on the uniqueness of your image, or I mean, it will help it's one more thing that will help you to do better.
Yeah. Well, that's that's kind of like some of the big questions that I had already answered. But I do really want to dig into the whole manual reschedule thing because like, I say, Yeah, I think you have almost the only person that I know of Pinterest who keeps on saying it manual wins his his my opinion. And you can you can tell tell me what what you think of that? I think because I've tried both and I hate manual billing. It literally destroys my life when I do it.
Equally, I haven't taken your course I've got I've got to say that. So you're probably you have got some better strategies than my terrible ones that I use. But the thing that I have found with it, and I do agree with you on some parts in the fact that but the reason that I agree is because I'm more mindful when I am manual pinning then when I have pinned from a scheduler in the past, however, now I feel like I've got a good enough system that I am very mindful with what I am doing now on the schedule up because I understand Pinterest a bit more, rather than just going, let's schedule as many pins as I possibly can in the next hour, which is what I used to do. And yeah, and then your account gets suspended and you just become a spammer. So, I've been down. But now I'm definitely much more like, right, okay, I'm pinning this pin. When you pin it manually, do you still, you know, so just using the whole yoga thing, I've kind of listed maybe three keywords that are could have been that two or three different boards that I might have, I might have a yoga board and might have a yoga at home, a yoga, routine yoga workout or something like that. And if that pin fits all of those keywords, would you still manually pin that to the five boards or however many years or do you only ever pin it once And then repin it to the other boards.
Well, I mean, that's a good question. And the answer is right now, if anybody tells you definitively how you should be doing that right now, I would say that those people are well, I know I've had to pick a nice word. Let's just use wrong, Nobody. Nobody can know. Right right now, how because we've all pinned you know, pinned to your top five boards, whatever. pin them to all the well keyword boards. That is still our mindset from the past two years, the past three years where we had to pin our pins repeatedly to get to drive it to them. Pinterest, flipped a switch sometime in the past six months now. It was not I guarantee you. It was not the day the tail wind announced. With Pinterest, the new the new guidelines that was that was tailwind releasing a new feature about how they're protecting you to go along with Pinterest new guidelines. And remember that tailwind is it's a business that uses Pinterest API. And they have to play ball the way Pinterest asks them to. They have to otherwise they lose their API. Pinterest is saying we don't want bloggers pinning out the same pin over and over and over and over again. They're saying that's too much. And honestly, I've I think that if you read their engineering blog, you will see in in 2018, they were referencing nearly 1 billion pins on the platform because of schedulers like tailwind. That number of pins on the platform doubled in less than a year. If they don't control the amount of paper That, that that like there are bloggers who pin 100 hundred and 50 pins a day, if they don't control the amount of pins that we're putting out. Like that is a lot of data to process they are they're constantly having to expand to process all that data. And I think that that's at the at the heart of they're wanting us to pin less now, because they want us to pin less. Are they going to reward us with traffic for pinning just once? Or is the algorithms still set to have to collect data at multiple points from a pin going out multiple times? We can't know yet because the time hasn't passed. So what am I doing personally right now, I am pinning out my pins to my strongest boards once manually and letting them sit and they instantly you know Get a traffic boost and then the traffic falls off again. And then when I reassess, you know, a couple weeks later, if that pin has done really, really well, I will pin it out again to do well, key word board. I never repin my own copy from my own board. So I'll go back into the blog post, repin it from the blog post or re upload it from Pinterest or I will repin somebody else's copy from there well keyword board. But if the pin didn't do much, if it if it didn't, you know, bring in a significant number of clicks if it looks like a pin that should just die. Right now I'm not repeating it. So is this a really good way to do Pinterest for our long term traffic?
I don't know yet.
It's Yeah, it's very valid. That is obviously a brand new So once that is brand new thing, isn't it really since the start of 2020? And so yeah, no one really has the time to be able to say what isn't isn't working. But
yeah, I think
it's safe to say that you're a great person to see what what you're doing because of the success and stuff you've had from it. But in the past?
Well, I hope that's right. I will say, you know, when I look at the pins that have started ranking in the last in the last three updates that we've seen, so anything that started ranking since the beginning of say, December, none of it, nothing that's ranking for me right now is a pin that I've only been one time.
Right. Not very good, or not very interesting, I think, is interesting. And but the next question, quite an important one I'd say is then how do you track it? Because I'm guessing why denote that kind of like what you said earlier, I really like the whole idea of finding a pin that is working. It's actually something that I did probably like December January time a lot. And I've kind of just got out the habit of doing it is finding a pin that's working, and then just almost making, it looks to me it looks the same, but it seems to work quite well, like you say, and just changing, changing words, maybe even just change the colour and things like that and almost leaving the image almost as much as you can. And then we might just move it No, move the word crop. Yeah, crop, the image, whatever. Do do that sort of stuff. I found that works really well. But how do you track all of your pins? You know, how do you personally see what is working? What isn't working?
This is probably the number one question I get about, about how do you how do you keep track of where you've been this and how do you know how what What bored, it's doing well off of it, you know, how do you track it? And in 2016, when I first when I first published my book, I had this elaborate system, a binder that I carried with me everywhere, because wherever I was, I had to sit down and pin. And I had written down all my posts written down, and I had a pack of 12 different coloured markers. And I would write the data in a different coloured marker every day. And oh, my word that is too hard. I don't track it. So I, I use Google Analytics. And I routinely look at at Google Analytics to see where the traffic is coming from. If you open your top referring pins in Google Analytics, you automatically have all the information you need. You can see what pin it is. You can see who pinned it. Most of the time it wasn't me. You can see what board it's been been to
if you dig into the
the The source code on the page have the pin that you've opened, you can see when it was pinned. And so I really only use Google Analytics to determine which pins are working for me on Pinterest. Cool.
Question. I don't know why I've never even thought of before. But I've actually I use someone's, you know, like saved. I don't even know what it's called. But on Google Analytics, I basically just click someone's link. I can't remember who. And it's basically some customization and it say, like, Oh, it's all my pins and stuff. From there.
Chris Christie Hill has a Google a Pinterest dashboard for Google Analytics. I did sure that's what it is.
Yeah, she was always in the mastermind group with Christianity. So it probably was.
how do you do it? Is there another way to do it? I don't know. I don't even know if I can share that with people. Maybe I could put this in the show notes so that they can grab it because without that I would be lost. I'd have it Absolutely no idea what you're saying right now. like, Okay, is there a real way to do it without that?
Yeah, yeah. So, um, so this, it's funny that you asked that because it's what my book was originally based on, except for that now, now the whole course has really grown to be all this stuff that we're talking about. But you go, I'm gonna have to go to my, my browser window here. So I can click on it and make sure I'm saying it, right. So if you open Google Analytics, and you go, Oh, my internet is being slow because we're, I think, because we're on Skype. So if you go acquisition on the left hand side page there social network referrals and Pinterest. And then are you are you with are you doing it with me?
Yeah. So, okay, so Okay, no,
network curls, Pinterest, Pinterest. Now here's your list of your top 10 posts. Bringing in traffic from Pinterest. Now if you click into the top post, your number one post bringing traffic from Pinterest. Here is a list of the Top 10 pin URLs, bringing traffic from Pinterest. Interesting. And if you copy and paste those pin URLs into a new browser window, you are opening that pin. As long as you are logged in on Pinterest. You are going to open that pin and you can see who pinned it. You can see where it was pinned to. You can see which pin it is, of course. And if you look in the source code, you can see when it was pinned.
That's cool. Yeah, that's basically what my special thing that I just yeah, I use just comes up with so that's cool.
That makes sense. Yeah. And so if you if you regularly like there is not a week that goes by, and I mean back when I was getting established on Pinterest, there was not a day that went by That I did not open this up and open my top 10 pins. And I guess further to answer your question about how can manual pinning possibly outperform scheduled pinning, but it is a little bit what you said about being mindful, like, when you are always looking, um, where your traffic is coming from on the platform. When you are learning about what works on the platform, you cannot help but improve your traffic. And I get so many people that say to me, like, oh, my goodness, what a waste of my time. But like, I don't know, I built an entire but two six figure businesses based on opening my pins and looking was
was it a waste of my time?
Yeah, I think. Yeah, no, it is. It can seem tedious. And yes, the thing with Pinterest is is that See it on so many Facebook groups as well like someone that like a new blogger? And they're like, how did these people get traffic from Pinterest and things like that? And they just, I always just smile because it's like this is exactly I've been through this exact thing. And it's that you can't respond to them with an with an answer to fix it is way more than just the 200 character response to someone's question on Pinterest, isn't it? And yeah, I don't know is it just all it takes you down this work unless you're prepared to actually put in the time and do those things like go through manual pinning go through tracking, checking, like your traffic and where it's coming from and what pins are working, what pins are not trying different strategies as well, because I think even if someone tries to copy like your exact strategy that you're using right now, they'll probably take a different a slightly different route eventually, at some stage, you know, for what works them and I just think is just a case of constantly trying it and seeing what does work like from what I've learned from Pinterest anyway, I don't know, I don't know if there is like, ever going to be a template like this is exactly what to do.
No, there there won't be and that's because, um, it's it is because everybody who says followers don't matter. Don't understand that followers do actually matter. But they matter differently than everybody thinks. So like my account now, various stablished account with 42,000 followers can behave totally differently. I mean, I can behave on the platform totally differently than somebody who is setting up an account this week. So it's impossible to give me a template and say, Carly can use this template on her account or establish account and a new person can use this template to as far as exactly how you should do it. Hmm.
Yeah, no, I think Just think this many moving parts to it that you have to just you have to get you have to do it almost every day. And