The Hackbase Revolution
4:56PM Jul 28, 2020
Our next talks it looks at the tech based movement, and its potential to change the world by building a new economy through hacking and co living. We present Liam kermesse with the hack base revolution.
Hi, welcome to my talk, and this talk is about hack bases. If you're not familiar with hack bases. They are residential hackerspaces. So, a place where you can hack, and also live. Why are we interested in hack bases. I am sure none of you need convincing that there is a problem on our planet. We could talk at great length about the different aspects of the problems. The global global situation on planet Earth is one of a number of problems in in large number of different areas from environmental, such as biodiversity loss resource depletion climate change. And also many social areas so we've seen social unrest around the world, political problems, fake news in particular. And if we look into the root causes of these problems we can, to some degree trace them back to the greater economic system that we have set up over the last few hundred years. And in particular, as individuals. We are living in an economic system where we can serve our own individual interests, without really seeing the greater impact that we have on our planet, and ultimately if we accurate gate, if we aggregate the impact of all of us. Totally on our planet, then the net effect is, we're causing systemic problems throughout. On top of all of this, most recently we've got the COVID-19 pandemic. So whilst we're aware of a kind of emergency situation that we need to be dealing with. We're all sort of locked down and constrained in in our ability to do things. Although, also this does provide an opportunity to sort of say, actually, we are going to have to really change how we approach things, and maybe there is more potential in that so COVID-19 also has its positive side, this, this quote by Buckminster Fuller, he's basically saying that if you have a large entrenched system, rather than try to tackle it head on to change it. Instead, work to cultivate an alternative system in parallel and see new growth rather than focusing on on fighting the old system. And so I think the hackspace movement in general, and our project in Wales Astro ship is attempting to do that or be a part of a greater global movement of what we call, building a new paradigm economy. The big question for us as a species, right now, is whether we as a species as human beings are able to evolve in a way that is sustainable, whether whether we are a species are capable of continuing to exist on planet Earth, or whether the human being has run its course and reached its end. We've done so much in the past, 2000 or so years of history invented so much amazing technology shown no incredible
feats of of what's
possible, as a as a being on this planet in our history, where we're now facing the greatest challenge our species has ever faced.
Without we're at a point
where we now need to answer the question, are human beings a species that's going to be around for another thousand, you know, long term period, or are we a species that's going to destroy itself. In the next few decades. That's really where we've arrived and previously until fairly recently and I'm sure for some people it's still true. The overall paradigm was in order to be successful in life, you should amass some personal wealth and have some children, probably, and leave them in a better position, economically, as individual units, a better position than than you were when you came into this world. But what's happened with the the limits of our growth of our system is that now we have to recognize that even if you leave your children in a situation of more personal wealth than you had, that's not going to help them very much on a planet facing systemic collapse and wealth doesn't mean a lot when you don't have the essential resources to survive. Where the heck basis, come into this well, all these problems that that we're aware of on our planet are going to need some very smart people to tackle them, and they really need to tackle them from within this alternative paradigm, it doesn't really help if we can only tackle the problems using the machine, which is causing the problems in the first place. So if we need global finance to fund giant corporations to do research when they inherently only want profit. The result, every solution we think we come up with is just going to come up with number of extra problems. So instead, how can we provide a world where smart people can just get together. live holistically live sustainably and come up with solutions from within a new paradigm. And that's what this hack base revolution is all about. I bought this chapel in 2010, without having a very clear idea of what kind of project. I wanted to do. In the same year, I sailed over to Ireland with a friend and really quite a bit of a bug for sailing, and experiencing how sailing influenced our culture. First things went really well, and we got quite a lot of money for developing our web app, software, particularly in healthcare, learned some hard lessons about business and ended up losing control of our spin out creations, but developed a huge amount of learning and got a lot of inspiration for the project that we really wanted to do, which is developing this astral ship innovation hack base concept. So ship is a really good metaphor for a hack base on your ship you have to have everything you need. You have to supply that. And you can you can go in whatever direction you want to go, so ship is a vehicle to take you somewhere, and we like to see our, our astral ship as being the vehicle that's going to take hacker collectives to a new future new paradigm, economy, hopefully a future where human beings can demonstrate the potential of the species. And the other great theme that we that we like is pirates drawn a lot from from pirate history. Now there's a bit of a debate about how good pirates were. And there were certainly some pirates who were probably not very nice people. And of course we have to compare the pirates to the other people that the establishment were not particularly nice in those days, either. And while we don't want to support random acts of violence and theft. We do want to acknowledge that pirates came up with some really good innovations if you look at the times. Some of the most important social innovations like universal suffrage that pirates had had votes on their ships and social care. Lots of these things were developed first by the pirates at a time when the Navy ships were more or less. Press ganging individuals forcing them to sail on their ships.
And so, at a time when out in the new world pirates were kind of getting on building a new world, and it felt like, I'm sure to them that the the old world in Europe was completely out of touch with what was going on there. they would make pretty arbitrary, you know, one day, England was at war with France and the next day it was at peace with France but what was failing. And I'm sure people living out in the new world didn't really care very much for these, these kinds of decisions. And so in some ways this is feels a bit like a metaphor for what's going on in our world today where the entrenched system of capital is coming up with new forms of quantitative easing and taking radical steps having trade wars, etc. And really we don't care, a huge amount about that we want to get on and build the new world. The new paradigm economy from the ground up. And I think the most important appealing feature of of pirates for us is the sovereignty, that they had. So if you think about it, in those days, the only people that really had sovereignty in their lives were the pirates, they own their own ships they democratically decided what they wanted to do and were able to pursue their dreams go where they wanted to go without needing any kind of approval for anyone who wasn't onboard. Their vessel. And that's the metaphor. We like to follow that we can believe in our dreams, go ahead and build systems that are going to impact the world in a positive way without needing to have any entrenched dogma dictate what we can and can't do. The new world, from the 16th to the 19th century was largely the Caribbean. And
for us, it's a little bit different.
The new world is kind of the old world. And that is the rural rural landscape for our hack bases, there's a number of reasons we think rural locations are particularly an opportunity, rural locations, often suffered from a kind of brain drain, where people needed to move to cities to get the best jobs. And so, the sort of smarter people often gravitated to cities to get better paid jobs leaving the rural locations, often deprived of those thinkers and people. Now a lot of the reason for this is because of the limits of information connectivity and goods distribution, but really since the development of high speed internet in rural locations. The game has somewhat changed. Now you can get all the information and goods you need in your rural location just as well as you can in a city. And for us, building our kind of new paradigm economy, we need these close economic loops. So, in particular, we need to be close to our source of food production. So, to build our
New Paradigm economic model, we need to be close to the source of our food, as many of our dependencies our inputs as we can, we need to provide for ourselves, or provide locally in our local economy. And so rudall locations that's obviously much easier to do, and we have emerging partnership with an organic farm, just down the road. And these guys have been doing an amazing job. Growing organic vege for quite a few years now, and some hackers there have been building this farm horticultural robot. What you can see is a hydraulic driven robot at the moment it's being remote controlled but independently. Some hackers are developing the computer vision and brains, that will go into this soon, and hopefully this is going to effectively be reducing the cost of producing organic vege which is a really important variable as, obviously, there are many problems with the current industrial agricultural approach, I'm sure you're aware, being close to being closer to nature is generally good for human beings, we have better quality air and closer to living systems is generally fulfilling for human beings. Also in rural locations, there is an opportunity to bring technology, knowledge and skills to local people who maybe don't have access to it as much as people in urban environments, and we can feel that as a database. We get a lot of appreciation for the work we do and we see this as being a important stream of the project is to provide education technology to people. Now, there is. Classically, a drawback with rural locations, especially for niche cultures, like hacker culture, which is that generally, because there's less people around you'll probably find less people like you around, but that can be solved with a hack base because you can bring your community of people together that you live with and
a group of like minded people that you can engage with regularly. Now, having only one hack base that may be limited but if we can develop networks of hack bases. Then there's a real diversity of opportunities for people to move around and share ideas with, with a diversity of people, whilst living in rural locations. So, when I bought the chapel in 2010, the Astro ship.org project really started at the beginning of 2017, and had some, some help from a friendly hacker Mars, who gave a lot of support to the
So we came up with this manifesto of things that we believe in and stand for his astral ship. The first one is, embrace interdependence, so we acknowledge and embrace the fact that as human beings we are fundamentally dependent upon each other. We can see that more and more I think in our global world as certain technologies for example certain genetic engineering technologies, become more and more powerful, we ultimately all attending towards being able to destroy each other if we don't behave appropriately. And we think that human beings need to acknowledge this independence that we shouldn't try to get away from it, we shouldn't try to keep ourselves in separated boxes and reduce the risk of each other we need to acknowledge that we're all in this thing together. We also believe in radical localism that really. There are limits to how much a human being can comprehend and make sense of, and we only really work at a certain scale. So to keep ourselves, stable as a human system, then we need to embrace radical localism, and this also works economically as much as possible we can, we can get our physical goods and services that we need from our local economy, then that's a much better way to run our planet. We believe in radical positive activism. So as that Buckminster Fuller quote earlier on was saying, rather than attack the current system which is what we call negative activism and protest, although there may be some use in that he think it's much more important to start building positive solutions start demonstrating how human beings can live better happier with more more well being and creativity and working towards the solutions that we need and living more sustainably. Next one is culture can change. Sometimes it feels like we're completely locked on this course and human beings can't change, but we have to realize that we've had decades now, of what's actually called in the industry programming and advertising. The latest psychological research and how to manipulate us so that we consume and feel insecure that we don't have enough, and as a result of all this I kind of destroying our planet. So, our messages that let's let's try and reverse this now maybe no one's gonna pay us to do it but we can create reverse advertising or spreading positive messages changing culture in a way that it isn't just about making profit but it's about helping us live in a better way as a species and enhance innovation, lots of research has been done and things like design thinking how to improve innovate innovation. I think fundamentally for us the most important thing is that innovation is done with purpose by the innovators. So, developing a way of life where people can really strongly connect with their personal purpose and work in that and get into deep states of flow. That's the way to really enhance innovation pirates are fun. I've already explained a bit about why pirates were cool and did lots of innovative things. And also, we kind of believe in fun fundamentally in that living with plays important work in play should not be separated that you should you should be playful in every moment of your work and daily life, and that's something we we subscribe to finally humans can do it. We really believe that human species despite our shortcomings and the mistakes and things we've made up are actually evolving towards being a more aware species, and that we can fundamentally connect with the oneness of all of us, and we can live together in harmony with ourselves with nature and live on a more beautiful planet it's going to be a journey to get there. But fundamentally, we believe it's possible. So, as I said, we're, we're trying to bootstrap, our own new paradigm economy, building from the grassroots up and let's have a look at how our economics works. So, our model is probably quite different to what economics looks like for other entities. So we've been doing a lot of foundational work we've, we've had to install a lot of infrastructure and we've been doing this with very little capital. So it's been a evolving project learning about what we are, what we want to do and how we're going to do it. And we've been sort of building up the skill level of the things we do so moving from basic infrastructure to more advanced education and it. And we're working towards this Pinnacle where we're doing highly
impact for multi disciplinary voyages. We have a number of spaces on the ship, we have our workshop, which we're developing slowly getting more equipment and and steadily bootstrapping. We have our co working and places where you can work on the laptop, we have our VR space, and I think my favorite bar is the kitchen where we have amazing vegan food being created by some wonderful chefs. And this is all really about trying to create holistic community hackers, as a community, need to be able to provide for all then all our own needs. We're not wanting to be dependent on a commercial paradigm where we can buy everything we need from shops, as much as possible. We want to be able to create what we need ourselves and provide the human services we need ourselves and that's why we are a diverse community, not just with technologists, but also artists and facilitators, people with softer skills or an important part of our community. These are some of the technologies that we really like and using in the project we're aiming to build replicatable systems so Nix OS is particularly good for that. And our goal is to be able to create a blueprint for for turning an abandoned rural building into a tax base. One of the biggest advantages of being in a rural location is of course cost buildings in rural locations are much, much cheaper than in urban locations, and in some cases, they are even free There are actually many historic buildings out there that if you can provide a convincing offer that you're going to take care and develop the building. They can actually be available for free. And here, this is a palace in India that's been abandoned for quite some time. And once we've developed our base in in Snowdonia, we want to think about establishing a network of bases around the world and to reach out to
We're aware that it's going to be a while before we can supply everything we need. And so this is really a process of transition we do it as much as we can with with what we have. It's going to be a while I think before we are making our own silicon. It's going to be a while, probably before we are prototyping, our own silicon chips, but it is certainly an area of active interest, whether we can be able to do this in the future. And more and more we want to create the goods and services as a network, we consume.
So let's take a look at
the economics of running the Astros ship. Our biggest costs are food and energy. We don't have to pay any rent for this building at the moment. So, if we can live in a, in a low cost lean way then our major running costs, we can take care of locally in the local economy, so we can get most of our food, we already get from the local farm. And although at the moment we're not producing any sustainable power, we hope to be able to do this in the near future. We have come up with this scheme of four different types of people that are on the ship, at any one time. So, first of all, we have the crew. Now the crew are the people that make the ship possible and provide sports to all the other users and working building and developing the ship. We also have the voyages so voyages are people that maybe come here to work on their own projects, and the crew provide them with everything they need so the cruise crews goal is to really optimize the experience for the voyages so that they can do the best possible work on whatever challenge or problem, they're working on. We also have a group of people that we say are in recovery. These are people that perhaps have experienced burnout in the corporate world, and still struggling to, to kind of reignite their inner Spark, and we think this is an important role for us to play, there's a limit to how many such people. We can have, at any one time. But we do think it's important that we play a role in healing some of the damage that's been done to so many great and talented people through, through burning out in the corporate environment. And finally we have, we have guests. So at the moment we have an Airbnb, which I'll come on to explaining next. So why don't we hear from one of our voyagers one of our early pioneers testing the astral ship as a member of the CCC hacker community. This is good Mithra. So, committer, can you tell us how's your experience been as being one of the early voyages on astral ship.
It's been absolutely great and absolutely unexpected in terms of how far granted spring for me and how much it's allowed me to become the person I was born to be and to kind of work towards the goals I always wanted to work towards and how reached I just got a lot of support from, from people and from the environment and a bit scared actually because I can't imagine going back not living in a place I can imagine living in a tiny apartment in a big city, with no paper I mean no space around me. And we're just rushing in you know having to run around here just really quiet, it's, it's gotten in space and we've got a lot of like people around you support you in that space. And I kind of divide tasks in a way that everyone is student enough and everything just works out very nicely. And when I was there, I was like, I think, and one of the main things people need, is that feeling of belonging somewhere this this place rooting for services that they can provide people that feeling. Whereas, you're living alone living with waste the small amount of people, they might not even know that what will never kind of provide that feeling of home. I think that's one of the greatest values, our friendship has had for me.
Great. Can you tell us a bit about what you've been working on while you're here.
Oh, I've been working on myself a lot, like, it's kind of figuring out what I'm doing on my mission in the world where to go with life and doing been doing my like daily remote work and be taken on some really new posts, like very new cool projects, and one of them actually turned out to be so cool and so new that is kind of transformed my life going entirely. And when I came there was still a different person now I'm like leaving with all these new things that happened more often new people met even like not inside here but online while being here because I had the space and some energy to meet them. And I'm leaving is a totally different person which is absolutely unexpected are really really cool it's like an incubator, like, like sort of thinking that it's this is like a human incubator.
So this is our model. You can see we have the astral ship we engage with a farm we get our food, and we might provide various services, and even goods to actors in our local economy so recently made some, some furniture for the farm, and we'll be exchanging that for some, some vegetables. Now, we are interested in setting up a mutual credit system with, with some partners in the UK, and we'd really like to see this as a potential to cultivate a sustainable green economy in the local area.
Now, we imagine
transitioning to a slightly more complicated model, where Astro ship is primarily focused on its global interactions and reconnecting with our global hacker connections and working on global problems and challenges, but at the same time, we'll be connecting with a local base, a local hackerspace, where we seek to accelerate and support and facilitate local players and local actors to work from the grassroots up building the local green economy. Now we do have a another chapel in the nearby town of Carnarvon. And although this is very early stage. We're envisaging setting up this as a public hackerspace and co working space for local people and also our community education space, we really want to try to facilitate the more kind of open source approach that we're very familiar with in hacker world and convey this message to local people that really knowledge is something that we all benefit if we all share freely with each other and we can educate each other and skill up each other so we really want to use this, this other base for that purpose. I'm going to play a video now. You will hear some Welsh language in this and it has both of us in English, and it's just an early stage video we've made of the historic chapel, that we bought stem we plan to do a project in the future.
So you got three bid in line
to walk away ahead.
They add in that same damn boy.
Here the speed, and cambay and giddy at caliente Agatha
footsteps marching heart speaks.
So, this is the kind of gold pyramid, as I said, we've been building things up we started with basic infrastructure and we're slowly developing more advanced projects technology education, and we're doing lots of live streaming media production. And so, from our income perspective we have our running costs that we need to keep this project going. Obviously, construction is something which can be very expensive. We're definitely trying to source as much of our construction materials as possible. There's a local timber yard, we were using. But these costs can be quite substantial, and there's a certain amount of where we're living without but our long term goals is to generate enough income that we can really strongly develop the infrastructure here. And over time, hopefully we will be able to invest quite a lot of capital in this building. For now, the base of our pyramid is really hosting guests. So we have an Airbnb, that was really our simplest income stream to get started. And we have been quite successful people have really enjoyed the experience of coming here and building on top of that, then we have co working, which is people coming here to work on their own their own projects and just using the space as a nice space to come and co work, but our our real goal is to host voyages. Now, these are quite quite loosely defined with any kind of experience where people come and use the ship for perhaps a week or two to work on something, and right at the top there I've put the kind of Pinnacle goal is to have multi disciplinary innovation void is where people with lots of quite advanced skills, perhaps needing quite a lot of serious facilitation to do to really tackle some some giant challenges, and that that's definitely the dream is to is to curate and produce and support. Really important voyages that are going to come up with innovations we really need.
one in 7000, people is, is a astral pirate or someone that would like to live or engage in a hack base and be one of these 50 people. Then, in the UK, there would be 200 of these hack bases dotted around, probably in rural locations perhaps not too far from from major, major cities. But that would create quite a strong network where probably individuals wouldn't be able to visit all of them. And with these same figures of one in 7000, then globally that would translate to 20,000 at basis. UK having about 1% of the global population. I've got 20,000 hack bases around the world I think we could really have a impact on our planetary situation, and hopefully some of these massive daunting challenges that we're facing. Could be tackled, and we could start to come up with solutions and start to give some confidence to each other that human beings are really not so bad. And that maybe we can imagine living harmoniously on this planet together and going to the stars on day.
There are still many challenges ahead, we have a lot to do. We are very short left capital.
And we still need a lot of skills we've had a huge amount of skills contributed to us on goodwill. And we still gonna need a lot of help, particularly we need architects people to help us design the blueprints systems replicatable systems where we need web developers marketing people. That's really, and a huge range of potential skills that that are needed, and really the primary requirement is enthusiasm for the mission.
If you want any more information about astral CIP.
Please check out astral ship.org, lots of videos we've been making on peer tube, and also on more mainstream social media platforms. So with that, I'll conclude the talk, and ask for any questions. life.
You're watching the hack based revolution, with Liam kermesse Liam thank you very much for joining us today.
Thanks Rob. It's good to be here.
And we'd like to invite those of you attending hope 2020 to ask them your questions, please post your questions to the live stream q&a channel in our matrix chat, and they will be related here. We've already got a lot of good discussion going on there and some questions. One member of the audience asks, How does this idea differ from communists in the 1960s, what lessons from those efforts would be used to approve this experiment.
Well clearly the technological situation. Today is very different to what it was in the 1960s.
And that's, I think, a really interesting question is whether some of the decentralization technologies that are emerging, a kind of blockchain stuff can have a significant impact on the ability of that type of comeon project to to impact wider society can that kind of rebalance and create clearer boundary points,
social social structures, I guess. I mean, I can make too much of a comparison, the comments were quite diverse and
a lot of experimentation, really great things happened and, and were discovered in that period. I think it's definitely rupes. And we have that.
Um, what's the reaction been like from the local community. Relating to your hack base.
Yes, it's been really interesting, and we're in quite an interesting, I would say, cultural situation here in northwest Wales, it's primarily a Welsh language Welsh speaking world. And
that community is often kind of perceived as being quite insular, in some ways, let's just say it takes a while to really go to to communicate what you're about to feel trusted I think by that community.
Early on, a shame. Anyway, COVID-19 was quite an interesting and useful period for us. Early on in the lockdown. There were a few incidents, I would say, I won't repeat exactly what was said about us on social media but it wasn't positive. And no, it may have been a small, a small minority of local people that expressed those sentiments but it was a chance for us to say hey no this is not we're about we're not some crazy hippie commune, all about having orgies but actually we are working on 3d printing visors for the hospital or various positive things we're doing so it was an opportunity to open up
on those lines, another member of the audience asks, How is the hackerspace coping with covid in terms of social distancing preventing the spread of the virus through the air washing dishes, etc.
Well, I mean, one of the things that was very clear from the whole pandemic was that if everyone lived in a hack face nobody would be no problem at all.
We, we are in remote location we're in a community in a, in a single building so
where people eat when we go to the shops, then it's very easy to isolate the building and live as an independent community with no real possibility of COVID, spreading into our building we had some thoughts of what we're going to do, if one of us starts developing symptoms and thankfully that wasn't a situation that really happened there were a few times we were like, oh, it did that, and that's we all had it with very very very minor symptoms, and
we couldn't have
another member of the audience has to say, How do you prevent these kinds of idealistic projects from becoming a catch all for hacker efforts and ensure their credit is given where credit is due.
I might need some help to interpret that question is it saying that
capsule for hyper effort so I don't know, it sounds like maybe, are we are we kind of pirating the hacker name to, I don't know you expand that question for me.
That's the asker of that question wishes to expand it in the chat but though, we'll move along to another. Someone asks, have you considered organizing those hacker voyages with organizations like community here, who helped communities set hacker and maker spaces up and rebuild after disasters.
That's sounds like a really I haven't not aware of communities so that sounds like something I know I is that in the in the livestream chat. It is cool. Okay, I'm going to
pick that up community Yeah Okay, cool. I'll. thanks for. Thanks for telling me about that
is what our community is about a lot of people throwing in their ideas and seeing what what happens. Um, someone, someone asked Can you share more details on your mutual credit initiatives. Do you also barter with vendors and others.
Okay. Basically, we have a contract with someone running something called the open credit network, and he knows, way more about it. They have a minor standing, this may be out of date, I think the last talk to him right at the beginning of lockdown but they have a kind of UK wide trading system where I think everyone can have up to something like 500 pounds a month, credit from the network. And then, I'm not sure if it's launched yet but they were developing kind of sub networks where you could have a local network or network of partners in a certain space that that trade together and set a limit of credit with each other. And so, the plan is to work with him to with open credit network, and various actors that we interact with like the fun, and it just gets get a local network going of people using using it. I think it's kind of like you.
After at the end of the month if you have some outstanding balance, then you you settle at the end of the month. So, there isn't too much risk of local networks. That's my understanding where it's at the moment that's open credit network.
And along these lines. Are you are you free to share, like maybe details of how you fund your day to day operations in a space like this.
Yeah sure, um, the first thing is just to be extremely nice, we really don't have a lot of costs, other than food and energy and taxes and a few of the bills.
And we we contributed we supplied through our Airbnb through contributions from glitches directly to the running costs, and currently from my from my savings. And
before I was working on Astro ship back in 2014 15 when we're a software company. We think you fairly easily get quite large sums of money for software projects, and it's been very much a. And then on the opposite end of the spectrum, setting up this project it's been a lot more real. And a lot less money in the bank but I think we are really getting a strong team together, where possibility of doing some kind of tech voyages where we generate now even if we had sort of 510 thousand pounds come in I think it would really accelerate up a project that has too much smoking So, probably not. Hopefully at least it's not too far away.
mentioning the Airbnb like what's the reaction been like for clients of that when they show up perhaps used to showing up to maybe a bog standard apartment and instead finding your space.
Yeah, that's some that's been interesting I think what's kind of happened is the comments that people leave after they're here and have it. Haven't had an experience sort of describe and it started out with like you know it's all in the construction and it's a little bit of a mess and chaotic but there's some interesting stuff happening and that's kind of gravitated towards as the as the project has developed and the experience for the guests has got more refined so the comments have kind of led in that direction I think so we naturally attract people who are looking for something a bit more unusual experience moving out of technology and working really well.
I'm a member of the audience asks, have you given some thought that this might devolve into a system, and what have you done to prevent this.
I think it's quite, quite early days. At the moment I'm kind of Captain. We don't like that kind of complicated governance structure.
But we have explored sociocracy 3.0, and if we get
to the point when we clear it up when you have that kind of thing. I'm still not completely certain whether we want to go down the pets or have cryptokeys and everything as a kind of dow type thing. But I'm certainly aware that there are a lot of really, there's a lot of thought been done by people in the field about what optimal systems are like the sexual fantasy. People can, who will draw from their experiences.
Put something basically that when, when the time comes necessary last summer we had some guys coordination that connected with spiral people
in work in how to set up, flat,
we would say I started out here with before it was officially actual ship. But after the software company with quite an archaic situation. And there was a long time when I used to have a lot of learning going on but not really a lot of progress, and it got to a point where I felt like, Okay, I need to say, I'm in charge of this ship, and whoever wants to be here. He here who doesn't. Don't. Let's get the project moving and the thing that's really, really helped the site really started moving forward much faster and I can now feel I can again step back again and say okay let's go back to being a flutter organization now we're clear about what our purpose is and where we're going.
Very interesting indeed. How can people find more as we've just got a minute, a minute or two to wrap up. How can people find more about your project and perhaps get involved getting contact.
Getting contact through the website or through social media and mounting social media is sometimes difficult things going on but we are there.
And, yeah, you can get in contact, we'd love to hear from actors, all over, you want to get involved.
Could you give their website out one more time please astral ship.org
Astro ship. org. This has been a very interesting discussion, Liam kermesse with the hack bass revolution, thank you very much for joining us today.
Thanks very much, Rob. Nelson.