Christopher Yuan - "Holy Sexuality and the Gospel"
10:59PM Jul 8, 2020
Jonathan J. Armstrong
Today it's our huge pleasure and privilege to be speaking with Dr. Christopher Yuan. Dr. Yuan speaks and writes on faith and sexuality and serves as a professor at Moody Bible Institute. And he's the author of the texts that we'll be discussing today, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel: Sex, Desire and Relationships Shaped by God's Grand Story, available for melanoma. Dr. You and thank you so much for your time and joining us today.
Thanks for having me as a
doctor, you and if we can begin, you have a unique story and to use your own phrases. God brought you from being quote an agnostic, a gay man to quote an evangelical Bible professor, that's a pretty unique story. Would you be willing to share the outline of your story, the faith in Christ?
Yeah, I wasn't raised in a Christian home but wrestled with my sexuality from a pretty young age. I didn't come out until my early 20s which, which is a bit unusual. Now today people are coming out a little bit younger and wrestling with that. But I came out and I was I'm from Chicago, and I was doing my doctorate I was pursuing my doctorate in dentistry. My father's a dentist, and I came out of the closet broke the news to my parents. Through that crisis, though, my mother came to faith and my father came to faith. And I went the opposite direction. Unfortunately, while in dental school and graduate school I did kind of what my my other classmates were doing, which is have fun party, go to the bars on the weekends, and I started doing drugs, also started selling drugs. Eventually, I was kicked out from dental school and moved to Atlanta, Georgia. And I kept doing what I knew how to do best at that time, which was sell drugs, have fun. I became a supplier and this whole time my parents didn't know you know, kind of the extent of my money. Drug Use drug dealing. And they and even they didn't know that they realized that my you know, for them they realized that the problem wasn't even that I needed to stop pursuing same sex relationships but they knew above everything else that I needed to submit fully to Christ to know Christ and submit to Him. So they pray for that miracle. They came to visit me one time in Atlanta and I told him to get out. I really was so turned off to Christianity. And I thought Good for you, but not for me. Well, my mother prayed, she prayed a bowl prayer God do whatever it takes. And she fasted every Monday for seven years once fasted 39 days on my behalf. And eventually, that answer the prayer came with a bang on my door. I opened up my door on my front doorstep were 12 federal drug enforcement agents, Atlanta police and two big German Shepherd dogs. So I found myself in jail and of all things A few days later, I found a Guinness New Testament in the trash picked it up brought it brought it back to myself and I began reading it, not it not thinking, you know that this was necessarily a good book, but I just started reading because I have nothing better to do. But as we know, God's word is, is living and, and it is his, you know, his It is his inspired Word, and it began to convict me. I thought things gonna get worse because I felt I was reading it and realizing that I was a broken man.
eventually call to the nurse's office, and I got the news that I was HIV positive. And that was the lowest of the lows. And one night I was laying in my bed after that, and I looked up at the middle bunk above me and somebody had written something in it read if you're bored, read Jeremiah 2911. I know the plans I have for you plants. to prosper you not to harm you plans to give a hope in future. I didn't know what that meant. But God just gave me a faith just to get through that one day and then next to the next and my transformation was it was gradual, it wasn't instantaneous. took me a while for it. I tell people it was I think it's mostly because I'm pretty hard headed. And God began to reveal to me first that I put my identity in the wrong thing, wrong thing. Everything about me was gay. And I realized that even though all my life, most of my life, I perceived that my sexuality was who I was, and God was telling me I'm, I bear his image, and that is who I am. First and foremost, I, I have a certain nature and crisis, the perfect image of God and therefore we must be more like Christ and pursue to be more like Christ each day. So that was really important for me. I was reading through the Bible and tried to justify same sex relationships, reading through it and realize that there was no justification that, that God, God's word is very clear that same sex relationships are are not his will. But I also realized that heterosexuality also was too broad of a category. To say that that is his standard because that also that category of heterosexuality also includes sinful behavior. And I realized that God called me to holiness. And so in one of my last chapters in my first book that I wrote, my mom I, I, I wrote this chapter called holy sexuality, and I knew that I needed to flesh that out some more, which essentially was a theology of sexuality. But anyway, I was called the ministry while I was in prison, and I applied to Moody Bible Institute of all things while while I was in prison, quite unique situation. I think, miraculously, I think, you know, in God's grace moody accepted me, and I started that movie in 2001. graduate in 2005, when I tweeted And exit Jesus from Wheaton College, graduate school and then got my Doctorate of ministry in 2014.
This is truly an amazing story. Thank you so much for sharing that outline with us. And there are other resources online to hear the fuller story of really what's an amazing testimony. Dr. You on in 2011, you co authored a text with your mother, we've alluded to it. Your mother's name is Angela, you and she right out of a far country, a gay son's journey to God, a broken mother's search for hope. What is this new text holy sexuality? What is that allowed you to do that you weren't really able to complete or in your first book, or how is this new book advanced your thinking on sexuality?
Yeah, my first book was really just a memoir. So it was my journey of faith. It came out in 2011. And I co authored co authored it with my mother. So she wrote chapter one, chapter two, chapter three. So they're alternating narratives interwoven chapters. And essentially, it was Just talking about, you know what we saw what we didn't see so much their books out there of memoirs and testimonies. But there wasn't really any written from a parent's perspective in this perspective. So, we wrote that my chapters at the beginning were quite dark. And my mother came to faith. It starts with her, with me coming out, and she comes to faith. Soon after that, and and her transformation was, was quite radical, quite, quite miraculously. And, and, and really, how she, in her faithfulness, just prayed, and, and just waited on the Lord to to act. So that book was those story I was I was trying to communicate God's truth, some good theology through our narrative, but I wasn't able to dig deep. So I introduced this concept Poli sexuality, which is chastity and singleness and faithfulness and marriage. And this newest book was it's not a memoir, and it's essentially just kind of articulating how homosexuality is really good news for all. It's a theology of sexuality.
Dr. You won't interrupt the three of the sex holy sexuality. Chapter Three is titled the image of God, where identity begins, and you anchor your discussion of human sexuality, in fact, all of human identity in this image of God, why is it important for us to begin this discussion of human identity to begin it in the image of God?
Well, it's really key, I think, again, you know, anytime an author writes, I think what they don't want to do is to just redo something that's already been done well, and we have a lot of great texts that have been articulating and clearly showing that the different passages in Scripture you know, using as our as methodology of exegesis and hermeneutics to share Whether looking at, you know the original languages or context, literary historical context that the Bible is uniform, and not only condemning same sex relationship, but also lifting up how marriage is between a man and a woman. And so there's a lot of books that have been done doing that. But what I saw was missing was. And there were also some books that were more pragmatic in nature, but something that I saw kind of missing in the middle, and that was approaching this topic from a theological perspective. Actually, my subtitle of the book, I wanted to be holistic selling the gospel, and I wanted the subtitle to be sex designer relationship shaped by biblical and systematic theology. And my, my editor shot me down along with the publishing board and the Marketing Board, which I kind of I I get that I mean that their thing was, you know, You know, you, you want people to buy your book and I thought, well, I would have bought the book. But we made it I saw the subtitle was now sex design relationships shaped by God's grand story. So creation, fall redemption and consummation and how that shapes our understanding of human sexuality. And I start when creation and how we're all created in the image of God, Genesis 127, and how the imago dei doctrine, how that actually is really important in helping us understand human sexuality. Actually, I say, I don't think we can understand human sexuality without first beginning with theological anthropology not only the imago dei understanding, but also the fact that all of humanity, we're all broken, we're all the fall in original sin. And you know, the consequences of the fall has can really help us better and move forward in understanding the issue of sexuality. Because today you hear Christians who will say, Well, my friend, you know, he's been this way as long as they remember. So how could this be wrong? And when people say that they really don't have a good understanding of theological anthropology, and archaeology and you know, the doctrine of sin and how we're all born with this in nature, we all have that propensity to sin, as long as we remember. So that's, I think, that can really help us to shape that, but also the imago dei, how we all because we are image, image bearers of God have value and dignity and that helps us then to, to view those in the gay community and those who identify as gay, lesbian and even transgender, even in their rebellion against God, even against even in their, you know, pre conversion state or you know, hopefully they will be converted to come to know Christ that they still image bearers. And I think that's important for Christians as we go forward to not look at them with disdain, but to view them as people that that, that God does love and that God does value them as human beings.
The thinking that you're doing here is super important for us. So I want to add my thanks for the work that you've been doing. You're a graduate of Moody Bible Institute of Wheaton College, also of Bethel seminary, you know, evangelical theology as well as anyone does. And you also know what it's like to be a gay man. And you know, what, what, what that lifestyle is like, so you're doing some really important and helpful work to bring us to understand, bring the evangelical community to understand this topic, theologically and practically, let me ask you one more theological question and then we'll move to the practical side as well. So in chapter six of your book, hold sexuality, chapter six is titled holy sexuality. And you can include this on page 52. I think it's a really clear summary statement. You're right. Thus the biblical opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexual. Right? led his holiness, and we're getting at really the heart of your thinking. Would you be willing to elaborate on that conclusion, please?
Yeah, I think it it kind of arose out of my frustration with the heterosexual, bisexual homosexual paradigm that I feel like I mean, it's a secular framework and Christians we have adopted it to view as almost the only way to understand sexuality that that's, that's that's just the paradigm, heterosexual on one side, homosexual on the other side. But when we're stuck in that paradigm. And we're trying to think well, what is it that God is calling us to? We make the mistake of, even though Yes, we start with the fact that homosexuality is not God's will. But the mistake is then saying so therefore heterosexuality is and as I thought about it, I realized and this is all you know it during my time in prison because I had a lot of time on my hands. I mean, of course, not only did I realized that my identity was in the wrong thing, I mean, because, you know, I don't know of any other sin issue where we have made behavior, who we are sinful behavior, who we are, if you lie, that's not who you are. That's what you do. If you're an adulterer, that's not who you are. That's what you do. But not only did I realize that about identity, but I realized that this this, what I saw, oftentimes Christians pointing to at the goal instead of sexuality is actually you know, riddled with sinful behavior. In the broader context. Yes, marriage You know, a man or a woman is one form of heterosexual relationship but not representative. Oh, for example, If the man is sleeping with several women, that's considered heterosexuality if there's a man cheating on his wife, but there's another woman that's also can be considered heterosexuality. If there's a couple, a young man and a young woman, they're cohabitating. And they've been doing that for several years. They even have a few children together. out of wedlock, that's also considered heterosexuality. So I realized that it's quite broad. It's too general and ambiguous. And in our day, where ambiguity is now viewed as a virtue, we need to be much more precise. So what is it exactly that God is calling us to so I began reading through Scripture and, and there's only two paths that God lays out for us. For all humanity to live in one path is if you're single, then be sexually abstinent. If you are married, biblically married with a man and a woman, then you need to be faithful to your spouse of the opposite sex and I say biblical marriage now I think I mean, even though it's kind of redundant, because marriage is only One definition for that throughout Scripture. But now as we know the legalization of same sex marriage, we kind of have to be clear about that. So really chat, holy sexuality is only two paths chastity and singleness, and faithfulness and marriage. And I realized that there was not one term to include those two paths that God has laid out chastity and singleness and faith was the marriage. So I created this term, and he used this term and I defined it as that as holy sexuality.
That is the great point you're making Dr. Yuan. The terms homosexuality and heterosexuality are not biblical terms. It's not to say that the Bible's teaching on sexual ethics doesn't pertain to the modern conversation, but it's framed very, very differently. And probably a first step in understanding a genuinely biblical understanding of sexual ethics is to get at the way that those two lenses really are seeing things from different perspectives. Thank you. Thank you for that. Let's, let's let me ask you a few practical questions, if I may. And really the first question One question I'd like to ask that emerges from your your last response is, so speaking to me angelical communities in evangelical churches seems to a lot of us that those churches and that culture is failing our singles, heterosexual or homosexual. It doesn't matter. we're failing our singles in sort of framing the whole life of discipleship towards a family orientation, but God does not call everyone to live in a family in a in a, you know, an American style atomic family. So, what is your message to the Evangelical Church concerning singleness and incorporating singles into this larger body of Christ?
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up, Jonathan. Because really,
you know, my book is, you know, obviously written to address this issue of homosexuality, same sex attraction, same sex relationships, same sex marriage and responding to that.
But, but I kind of had an ulterior motive and that was was a to write a book that was applicable to everyone. Homosexuality is good news for all people, you know, I've gotten emails, you know, to our ministry that were surprised when they wrote, you know, read my book because, you know, they would say, I picked up this book for my, you know, lesbian cousin, you know, cousin to help them better understand her. And they said, You know, I didn't realize that this book is really for me, you know, helping in my own marriage or helping me in my own singleness. Because we're all I mean, everyone they're either single or they're or they're married. And, and I think we've, we've in a church, I've talked a considerable amount about goodness of marriage, sometimes. I think it can be a little bit skewed and that we view almost marriage as the answer to loneliness which which that it's not, but also elevated marriages as if to be almost the only means to be happy or the only mode to to receive intimacy and love. And yet the truth of the matter is mirrors definitely does not have a monopoly on love. And marriage is good, but it's not the best. Actually, the Supreme Court when they legalized same sex marriage, Justice Kennedy, in the end of his majority opinion wrote that marriage is the highest ideal of love. And that quite simply as a true according to Scripture, it's not the highest, it's definitely a form a way in which we can. It's a context in which love occurs. But it's not the only one. It should definitely not be the only one in singleness, I think. And I think it started in the Reformation. There was a sense when the reformers when they were clearly kind of separating themselves from the Roman Catholic Church said well, because self, you know, celibacy was such a part of the priesthood. They were rejecting that and actually, if you notice, when I articulated homosexuality, I did not Use the word celibacy for many reasons. First of all, celibacy is not a word we'll find in the Bible. It's from the Latin root, a Latin root that, interestingly enough, we don't find, even in the Latin vulgate, the word celibacy or the Latin root for celibacy, celibacy is is a U is a word and and, you know the the meaning of that word developed actually, in church history. And of course, in church history, we need to, we can't just take it just because church history says it's or it's part of church history that we have to embrace it, we need to take everything and and compare it to the standard, which is the word of God. And even First Corinthians seven, we don't find any idea of a lifelong chosen vocation. Paul just uses the Greek word gammas are not gammas married, which I think singleness is the closest to that. But we've really, I think, in the Reformation And beyond that, we've kind of shunda and just put a stain on singleness. And we forget that actually, you know, our Savior Jesus Christ was single and, and, and not realizing what that meant in first century Israel when the average age for a man to marry was 18. And Jesus was 30. But he wasn't just any man he was considered, you know, of course, I mean, if you're a Jew, they would not say that he was God, but at least they would recognize him as being a rabbi. And rabbis, generally were always married. If you look at extra biblical literature, there's actually only one person that was ever mentioned that was not married. And I'm not talking about Jesus, but it was another Rabbi and he the only reason why he was mentioned was because he was severely criticized by all the other rabbis for being single to the fact that Jesus came as a single man in his 30s and as a result Rabbi was quite quite radical, and yet he was fully human. He was fully holy. And, and he definitely was not lacking intimacy or friendship or love. So I think understanding that is really important. And even in our churches today where I think it's sometimes an unwritten rule in some conservative churches, that they will not even call a pastor, or a church leader, or an elder, who's a single man, which I think, is quite unfortunate because with that type of standard, if Jesus or Paul were living today, they wouldn't be able to serve in the majority of our local churches today. So I think we need to actually come back to a scriptural understanding of not only marriage, but also singleness and realize that both of them are good in Christ. Both of them are good and really I think the best way of having a good understanding of singleness is actually having a biblical theology of marriage. Then in the Old Testament, we see the people of God growing by procreation. So much emphasis upon your offspring passing down your name, and your inheritance to your offspring. And so many children were blessing. No children were in a sense of curse from God. But then the New Testament we do get the emphasis upon marriage, family, but it didn't seem as much as an emphasis because the reason is because although in that Old Testament, people of God grew by procreation and the New Testament that people have got grew by regeneration. And when we think about it, in that sense, we realize that even a single individual can have children and that's spiritual children. Paul was not married, and yet he had many children. And as single individuals, we also can have children and offspring even though We're not married, we can have spiritual discipline. And that's I think that ties into the great commission as we are making disciples in essence, we are beginning new life. But you know people and leading them to Christ so that they can be born again. So having that understanding kind of helps us to see how singles are, can be a very important part of the church. And But that also means that if we understand family in that sense that that actually, the physical family that we that we often have so much emphasis upon, is really just a reflection of the greater eternal reality, which is the spiritual family. And that I think, is a key aspect to not only better ministering to our singles, but also individuals who are wrestling with same sex attraction that we really need to begin living as the family of God.
I love what you're doing there Dr. Yuen bringing, bringing a genuine theology of sexuality. In the way that the Bible's teaching on sexuality touches on so many different areas. And it also means that we've got a lot of homework to do to reframe our understanding of sexuality in through this biblical lens, rather than borrowing language, secular language that has a place but ultimately is not primarily going to be the biblical way to express these concepts and these ideas, really appreciate that. And if I could add an endorsement to I was so excited about your book, because I was working through it in preparation for this interview, I was talking to my wife, honey, this is the next marriage book we need to be reading. We get the audio book which you yourself perform. I think I was listening to some snippets. So we could actually listen to you read this book in an audio format. My wife and I worked through a little bit ago, Tim Keller's meaning of marriage were hugely blessed by that book because he takes this broader theological view of marriage which you also are doing in this work. So yes, this is a book for singles homosexual singles heterosexual singles for married people this is this is a great great piece of done. Doctor you want to thank and ask you this question. So what's your message to those who self identify as lesbian gay bisexual or transgender and Christian who claimed both those identities? What do you say?
Yeah, I think
and and you know so there's there's nuance now today of course as there is with with everything you know, sometimes I think people try so hard to be more nuanced and and sometimes do it without good theological reflection. But even those who identify as gay and Christian, obviously there are those who say I'm gay and Christian and and being gay is okay. And also being in a same sex relationship is okay, God blesses those. I think the biggest issue with those who hold to that view, even some like Matthew vines, they have a high view Scripture but it's interesting that they might say they have a high view of Scripture, but pretty much everyone that the quote from doesn't does not have a high views which they do not hold it in there and see. But I think the biggest problem with those who who say they have a high view of Scripture, and also I, I address one of Matthew vines, one where he's the starting point of having this kind of good food, bad food and how that analogy is really a complete distortion of what Jesus is talking about. And the bad fruit. Matthew vines views that as bad fruit, like testing the testing of bad fruit, or testing a fruit whether it's good food or bad fruit. He says he believes that bad fruit is equivalent to it's not just experiential, you know, if you if what you're in and he saw the teaching as fruit teaching produces fruit so if there is is suffering or depression or suicide? That's bad fruit? And of course that is absolutely not what Jesus is talking about when he brings that up in the Gospel of Matthew, but actually bad fruit is representative of unrepentant. And good fruit is repentance. That's what Jesus talking about. But really the biggest problem with gay Christian, I, you know, I just call them gay activists are the fact that they're not reading scripture. canonically. And I think that's really important thing, because as you see, the different pastors that are specific about saying that same sex relationships are simple, they're really all tied together and point many of them point to Leviticus 1822 and 2013. And how when we read things canonically that really helps us to put guardrails on hermeneutics, and that's, that's actually the best way of having a high view of Scripture, but also keeping in mind Mark chapter 10. In Matthew 19, where Jesus in defending marriage goes back to Genesis. He doesn't go to bid against or Deuteronomy he even goes back earlier than that to creation Genesis one and Genesis two, which is in the beginning creator made them male and female to become one flesh. So that really important that actually Jesus himself was articulating that marriage is a compliment, you know, complementarity between male and women man and woman so that's really key really things canonically but to others who might say I'm I may be gay but I'm also celibate. And I'm Christian. I think where what they're doing is they are, first of all making their sexuality who they are, you know, this is something that is almost innate and fixed, they will say this is who I am. And I would encourage them Don't put your identity who you are your ontological your essence in your sexuality because at the end of the day, sexuality is not who we are, but how we are understanding that can actually help us because when we have the wrong identity, our ethics flows from our from our essence. And actually it can there's this kind of cycle essence of ethics, ethics, in essence. So personhood in practice really have this really complex interplay. Because if we understand ourselves in one way that's going to affect the way that we live. So that's, that's one thing, but also this misunderstanding that's kind of floating around today that somehow being gay, that that that good can come out of that. And that's really misunderstanding what the concept of sexuality and turning this understanding that maybe even in all my relationships are, are sexual and this is where I think we need to be clear that not all my relationships are sexual.
You know, my relationship with my parents, that's not a sexual relationship. That that is a form form of love that's a form of intimacy. But not all form of love and not all form of intimacy is sexual whether whether it's physical, sexual, or it's romantic, sexual as well that we need to be able to differentiate those two and realize that same sex rap romantic desires, same sex, sexual desires are not God's will. And we need to reject those, and not to conflate them with this concept of sexuality. Because when we do when we view kind of the more platonic same sex desires or platonic, same sex relationships, if that were a part of sexuality, then that would make everyone bisexual. I mean, you know, my mother and father who have no same sex, sexual desires. It's considered that when my mother has a desire to be closer with her mentor or people she's discipling, her good friend in a non sexual romantic way if that's part of sexuality, and then that would make my mother a lesbian. So that I think it's today there's I mean, this is Might be all new to your listeners and to you, Jonathan, but in the world that I live in and seeing that there's really a lot of confusion today about whether what's needed most with a person who has same sex attraction is to be in a covenant in spiritual friendship, which essentially is marriage without the sex. The Bible is really clear that that friendship isn't meant to replace marriage, nor is marriage meant to replace friendship. And what we need more than merely friendship is actually family, spiritual family, and that's brothers and sisters in Christ and not to allow our same sex, romantic desires to get to get confused with just healthy platonic brotherhood and sisterhood, relationships in the family of God.
That's for you, and you're doing very important work and there's a lot of it to be done. There's In some ways, we're in some ways with the Supreme Court decision 2015 some legal definitions of sexuality have become clear to the broader culture. But there are many questions remaining and many pastoral questions are probably just at the beginning stage, the church is just learning how to care effectively for communities wrestling with all of these questions. What what are the next books that you might be writing? What was the area of work that you intend to direct yourself toward in the near future? Oh,
man, I don't know. I mean, several people have been asking me that, and I don't know the answer
I see. Obviously, the issue of gender identity is something that that is the church is really grappling with. And just as there needs to be a theology of sexuality, I think there needs to be a theology of gender, sex and gender sex is the noun male and female Not, not the not the verb. But I think whether that I don't know if that's going to be me who's who does that, but we definitely need more resources on that. I also see see a need for resources for parents to talk about sex and sexuality with their children again, from a, a robust, biblical, theological perspective that is simple enough for young children to to receive and not to think about it, but but still introduce sex and sexuality at age appropriate ways. But we need to be ahead of the curve. We can't allow the world to be, you know, to beat us to our kids to talk about sex and sexuality. So we need to do that. And I think that's, that's a need out there as well. So I don't know who's going to do that. I think that's definitely a need. But I think from Right now, I'm taking some rest after finish, you know, writing that book and along with speaking about parents.
Thank you. And thank you so much for your time this morning and your responses to these questions. Then I close us with a question that we've been asking all of the interviewees on this program and that is this. What can Christians do to pursue the Unity for which Jesus prayed and john 17 questions of sexuality have generated a lot of divisiveness in the church, on the practical level, what is it that we can do as a broader body to pursue the Unity for which Jesus prayed?
Well, obviously, you know, we need unity and essential essential oils, and charity and the non essentials. And I think that's really important. And sometimes we can oversimplify that thinking that there's only two categories. There's the gospel core doctrine and then everything else. But I think there's a sense also where Paul though, Issues of morality aren't salvific. But it's one of those things that Paul was willing to distinguish and to separate from people who would say they're Christians and not but so we still we definitely need to be united in in the essentials. And I would say, though, I wouldn't call it an essential, but it's definitely a very significant issue that we that we need to be united on that on biblical sexual morality. But I think where we definitely also need to be united is there's a sense where people who are wrestling with sexual brokenness, for example, specifically, dealing with same sex, sexual desires and wrestling with sex, sexual romantic desires, is that what they need is kind of a separate group of people who are wrestling with the same thing to have kind of their own ministry or maybe their own conference and stuff and I think what has benefited benefited me most was really being in the diversity of the body of Christ. I needed other brothers who wrestled with something different than me. I initially, you know, when I first came out of prison, I felt like what I needed most was someone who knew me who was going through the exact same thing. And God simply didn't provide it. And I think it was in his office and his grace, but instead he gave me the church. Instead, he gave me other brothers at Moody, mentors, pastors, professors, and really none of them that my closest best friends my, you know, my accountability partner that I've known for years, and we're still he was my roommate at moody. And he doesn't wrestle with same sex attractions, and yet the difference in what we wrestled with and yet being united by the fact that we all are broken and that we The price was really what I needed. And so I think today what we don't need is to be more segregated by our specific sin groups. But I do think what we what we really need more and I speak from experience from my own experiences that we need the diversity in the body of Christ who might be wrestling with different things related to their own sin nature. And together, we modify our flesh and pursue Christ. It's been our huge pleasure today to be speaking with Dr.
Christopher Yuen, author of the text fully sexuality and the gospel sex desire relationships shaped by God's grand story. Dr. Yuan, thank you so much for your responses in time.