The Battle for Our Emotions... Control the Narrative, Control the People
2:56AM Jul 29, 2020
Hackers on planet Earth. 2020. This is hope. It's a great pleasure to be with you and it's a great pleasure to introduce our next speaker, or x or x has such a fascinating bio that I'm going to read you the first sentence or two says Oryx is a self created hacker that runs the world in search of hacker enlightenment. Currently, she is holed up in our off grid cabin prepping for the zombie apocalypse. It goes on. Read this you'll enjoy it. Let's welcome Sarah, and we're going to see the presentation, and then we'll come back for some discussion.
Good afternoon, and welcome
to do a talk virtually with no reaction from the audience. But experience for me so please bear with me and all the speakers during this conference. I top of this recording myself videotape is definitely not my strong suit. But thanks for coming, and let's get to it. To start, I will introduce myself. I think it's always important to know who is talking. After all, you're taking the time out of your day to hear me speak. So thanks for being here. And now on to the show. My name is Sarah cranek. I go buy RX. I'm a self created hacker, aka self taught that roams the world in search of hacker enlightenment. Currently I'm holed up in my off grid cabin prepping for the zombie apocalypse, or better known as the provincial election. My day job is hacking systems, and advise various clients. In other words, a consultant. I've currently also leading the vetting efforts for the scatter Green Party, and designing the Paul party's policies on cybersecurity and privacy in my off time whenever that is. I am a muy Thai fighter and yes I do fight in the Rayji ring occasion I was supposed to fight in May. But my fight my bout was canceled due to COVID. And I also contributed to various open source projects. These are my professional qualifications, if you will. But who am I, I'm a queer female hacker perhaps hacker. Yes, definitely. coder maker idealist. I studied sociology, anthropology gender studies, and I landed up in the hacker world. This is not so far fetched as one might think as, way back when, like when I was 10 or so I was disassembling electronics and blowing up school yards, which led me into just about speed shipped off to the army to professionally blow shit up stuff. People are always asking me or X, but no technical education why hacking security tech. Well, what is it, education, you read you study you and do you read sorry excuse me, you read studied do. I did all those just not for a piece of paper, though, ironically, I have finally taken upon myself to get a few certs so I look more legit, quote unquote, if you will. I had a bad high school experience. And so that led me away from stem. And I found myself studying the humanities, social sciences in the Behavioral Sciences, like topics like psychology. This is not to say my fellow social sciences grads are not as bright as the stem ones, but we do have a certain reputation. How did I ever know my education would be exactly what I needed in today's changing security landscape, I didn't. But here we are, everything and security is based around humans as humans generally are the prime users of security. And we must not only think of the attacker and defender in a professional sense of the word, but also the end user this, let's call them the simple user your grandmother your grandparents your parents, as I often say to clients, and the public in general, you could have to create us technology crypto cryptography algorithm, with its sub user uses the password 123456. I have had clients, I remember one particularly well, who, when I asked to get onto their back end system to see what was going on, delete my contact proceeded to grab a binder and every single password was written down. And the binder was even hidden. If you're laughing to yourself, well probably you've done the same or know somebody who has. If I can get police officers to admit to me they're using their birthdays.
2016 was a pivotal year for many reasons. I served so on became president. I will not take political sides as that is not the point of my talk. We could easily talk about other leaders like Putin Mussolini Hitler Napoleon to spot all royalty and so on. But what is unique about 2016 is the way misinformation disinformation was spread and the speed at which the impacts are Felt with the combination of the election of 45. And I guarantee we all participated, probably, unaware of the role we played, I will get to why shortly. The most troubling issue now is we're dealing with the effects of all this mis disinformation years after. And I would argue that the most insidious problem is not who or who didn't get elected, but this lingering on ease about information, and the legitimacy of the information that we digest on a daily basis. And I will make a point of saying, This is not just an American issue but a global problem. We see the same tactics and use of information in my current country of Canada. Before I go on. I would like to define a few terms, and specifically misinformation and disinformation misinformation is false information that is spread regardless of intent to mislead the last part regardless of intent to mislead is very key. This information, however, is knowingly spreading misinformation. So what does that mean misinformation means, I could find something that on the internet, and I posted to Facebook. It could be false. I don't know, I just don't go through the effort of finding out. So it could be misinformation or could not be but my intent was not to mislead disinformation however is knowingly passing that misinformation on and saying it's true. This is very critical.
Fake News, real gunfire in North Carolina man arrested in a DC pizza shop. After brandishing a gun, telling police he was there to investigate a conspiracy theory called pizza gate, one of the hosts runs up and it's like,
did you see that guy you know he had a big gun, we actually thought initially that he was a staff member, because he was walking straight for that backroom staff member, you know, kind of looked at me and indicated that this was a gunman. I grew well to period
in court this afternoon. According to police, well said that he had read online that the Comet Ping Pong restaurant was harboring child sex slaves, and that he wanted to see for himself if they were there. The suspect said
he was armed to help rescue them, the accusation
from this unhinged story that originated online days before the election saying that Hillary Clinton and her campaign chairman john Podesta, we're operating a child sex ring. The lie took root in the digital swamps of Twitter and far right wing websites, the current demmick is a perfect example of this. Here's a tweet, quote, this is a hoax, now. We're shutting down the global economy and losing your freedoms over a flu virus. You have to stop watching CNN, that's the cure,
the poster continues, quote, who is finally news to the entire world.
Bill Gates is the largest financial contributor to the who, again, this is a hoax keep putting your livelihoods and freedoms into Bill Gates hands. Unbelievable. Unquote. This is Charlie because it goes to show not only the distrust in the media, but also distrust greed and lack of awareness of how science works. Brian tweets, quote, this guy is no longer relevant wrong too many times, unquote,
consider you know why not even the best experts in the world could have predicted how the virus would change mutate and transmit.
After all, it was a novel fires. I don't think I have to define what that means. Let's return to the title of the talk. The battle for oceans, control the narrative control the people. I'm reminded of the stats professor who wrote out this pretty long equation in the first class it's a, quote, you won't need this to pass the class. This is the whole class. I needed that class I could move on to university and world domination, three quarters of the class wanted to drop the other one quarter was so unaware they just smiled nervously. He spent every class breaking down every aspect and lectra were why the numbers any equation was the way it was aced the class in case you wonder. I needed the why, how, what, when, if I understood what was going on behind the equation, I would have to remember the question, because it would make sense to me. I would argue that the battle influence campaigns and Miss address information. We need people to understand the underlying premise and ideas behind using these mechanisms. At least they need to critically think.
Hi Aaron. Hi.
Okay, so I'm gonna
just give you some actions to do I just do the first thing that comes to mind, show me what it looks like to run like a girl.
Show me what it looks like to fight like a girl.
Now throw like a girl.
my name is Dakota and I'm 10 years old. Show me what it looks like to run like a girl,
throw like a girl
fight like a girl.
What does it mean to you when I say run like a girl, it means when you can't
offer posing, marketing, you always say you're not selling the thing your client wants you to you're selling the feeling and how that product or service makes the potential purchaser feel. What do I mean,
think of apple or the Mac puck. Lots of people have fun these days, how does the Mac bake make you feel if you have.
Did you consider the emotion aspects of the product.
Did you buy it because your friend has one, because your officemates maybe down at the cool co working space.
a lot of people buy Mac Book, not even knowing what's in their mac book. I wonder how many of you actually know the tech specs of your Mac Book. If you don't, then you really have to consider why he bought that book in the first place. Let's try another. There's a really well known character called the Marco. He used to sell Marlboro cigarettes. So, he would lean against the fence with this cigarette. He would light it with his cowboy hat, and his cool Stetson boots and hat. Oh here sexy with is Chris Lee good Lux.
How about Antrim I'm
okay now maybe we're getting close. I'm feeling. It's been big in the news recently because of the blacklivesmatter
part of me the Black Lives Matter movement. How does it make you feel as a man, woman, black or white. Do you have a reaction. Do you care. Something to think about. What do these ads have in common. They're using our emotions and feelings to get you to buy their product. I want you to buy the product because it makes you feel cool special breathing smart, good looking, strong manly womanly, and so on. Now because the product keeps your vehicle. This is a surface laptop. And this is a real
person named Mackenzie book, a MacBook. So Mac, which laptop last longer, said this laptop last longer. Interesting. And which one's faster. This one's faster, really amazing, which one has a better touchscreens is this
touchscreen, because it actually has a touchscreen.
Oh, right, Mac's
don't have touchscreens, you should get a surface, trust me on that book.
Bell there you have it,
Mac books as
Mississauga dentist often referred to as Nexus ER and careplus consumers don't buy an apple popper, because
I really love this app, because it's so emotional so touching. And you don't actually know what they're selling it till the end. And you would only know that if you knew what a deco has.
And the fact that it's
in life is a song. Somehow it's I don't know the words without shooting and you've been on my mind all the time and
how does this make you feel, do you want to go out and buy a bunch of crushes. Probably not. You probably wouldn't pick up the phone, call your grandparents, this emotional messaging
is very critical to what we'll be discussing
and is an over arching theme.
And how we
So think about that as we progress.
Don't just think
Both can do it for your muscles and make them do it for you.
These are my samples of influence. I only use the word micro because they totally are not societal liberal campaigns. In other words, directed directly to change whole societies. What we are concerned with our societal level influence campaigns. There are positive ways to influence people and negative methods. Can you give them an out, or do you force and only give one option. This could be a good differentiation between most methods of influence and say behavioral economics ideas like nudging
our honeymoon. It really is Betty.
Being here by the ocean smelling that car.
What are you I'm Mr.
Boo. Boo in
Victoria, I'm from you. You mean, all the poo in Victoria gets flushed out into the ocean. Yes, sir. But fortunately, the capital Regional District of Victoria
is going to build me a home. That's a relief. What can we do to
get you out of here. Well,
the capital Regional District wants to hear your ideas about what kind of home to build from. And I don't want
just any old GM. I want a home that puts me to work.
So when you email them.
Tell them to build me a home with power.
means he said
he can make energy from
biofuel water. Either
way, people generally respond to stimuli in quite predictable ways. Use our own biases and psychology gets us as the foundation of most negative bad examples of these can be seen in historical record.
A perfect case of this would be Nazi Germany
politics aside what I find most interesting about the Nazis is the way the rulers party leaders used to influence to manipulate a whole population had to committed some of the worst atrocities The world has seen. It is often asked how a whole population is made to turn a blind eye to atrocities, only to later say they didn't know my answer to this would be Hitler and his government were very adept at using people's already boiling over desperation to his advantage, the whole country came out of the First World War defeated down, then the Great Depression. A whole population. we're looking for answers, and someone or something to save them. Someone comes along and makes them believe they themselves have the answers and know who to blame, blame the West blame the US blame the allies. But most of all, blame, those Jews. That is who we should really playing. The thing is, blaming whole countries, it's a lot harder than getting people to hate a well defined, I know.
Hitler now had
his enemy, someone for the population to collectively Hey collective hate is a very powerful thing. why to see examples. Look at sports fans. If you're not with us. You're the enemy. The other team that creates an in and out group. We belong to one group, and everyone else is the out group, join us, or get out.
I saw this post 911, if you weren't rah rah pro war. You were anti American. I remember at one point Katie and plated cars are getting targeted. I remember my dad putting an American flag in his window and so he wouldn't be targeted SAP but it was a very real thing. So they had their group, and the enemy group dynamics took over, but to keep the charade going, you need to keep feeding propaganda, as people will start to find out the other group. The enemy is actually not that bad, nor evil, nor some evil devil type figure. Sound familiar
shots, the number one way to make someone not hate another is exposure to the group the person is fearful. Once you realize the person you hate as are fearful or just like you're my job to families like good food and like to have a good old party, have a job saving up for a house worried about their kids. Those other people, quote unquote, are suddenly not those unknown people you think are different, but artists like you and me. So how can you hate them.
Attention please, the spill now released for public showing has been captured from the enemy. It is a typical example of vicious German Etsy propaganda.
We all know a
privilege to witnessing demonstration.
Use generally to influence other people. Since propaganda is generally used to make people do something they perhaps don't want to do. And there are neural alternatives. Join us. Or else, then I will argue propaganda is all negative from the perspective of the target audience. The purveyor of propaganda may have good intentions, or even could be seen as a new right. They're not concerned with them as much as we are with the target target audience propaganda is used all the time. It's sometimes the most effective use of propaganda is when the target audience, does not read it and acknowledge it, as propaganda propaganda could be fake or real. It doesn't really matter, as long as it is positive for the producer and elicits the expected results. Sorry to pick on the US again. The US is a perfect example of a subversive propaganda. The flag waving the rah rah pro Americana mentality. The whole We are number one is probably one of the best uses of propaganda. It may or may not be true, depending on who you ask, by what measure the mini American shirt you but it to be true. Yes exceptionalism is pervasive. I found in all my travels global divides melt. When it comes to this topic. One of the most interesting uses of propaganda comes from World War Two era. There was a propagandist called Lord, haha. Well, it was a group of people. The name was given to anybody who would be producing propaganda for the Nazis happen to be English speakers. The most famous that I know of, was William Joyce. He was an American born Brit turn Nazi propaganda machine. He brought cows to the UK by shortwave radio.
Research broadcasts the right climate industry, public enlightenment and propaganda
attempted to discourage and demoralize American Australian British and Canadian troops and the British population to suppress the effectiveness of the Allied war effort through propaganda had to motivate the allies to agree to peace terms, leaving the Nazi regime intact and empower. Interestingly, many of the broadcasts would keep saying, information behind enemy lines, and we'd have details about loved ones, so many were to so many would turn tune into the Germany calling broadcasts for news they couldn't get, otherwise have a short listen to the clip I found of Lord Harmon. on behalf.
In order to use this resistance should not lead to further bloodshed and destruction. The politician who had left him in Belgium in the lab. Loudly protested against this action found the competitive safety of London. But he can read up fraud to disregard.
He acted in the interest of the people who did not seek safety in light, and well then,
the members of the Belgian Parliament who met at limoge. To denounce the king's decision, found themselves too few in number to proceed with any so called legislation against the monache.
It is very interesting to note the contrast in this case, between the men who make war, and the men who fight them
propaganda has not gone away no with the advent of modern communication propagandists have found even more avenues from which they influence their target audience. They know all
too well how convincing anti Vax messaging can be anything really compelling headlines like my job is never the same again, lots of regression, lots of death. Lots of babies dying, that kind of thing is, is really, really scary when they see posts like this, Megan and Tara begin to doubt. I didn't want them to be the tiny percentage to to be injured by a vaccine, I just kind of frozen fear and didn't make any decision at all. But when they do more digging, they have trouble verifying the claims. I thought there was this wealth of well documented well referenced, like incontrovertible evidence that all the claims that vaccines are bad for you all this smoke. Where's the fire.
I was pissed.
They finally decide to vaccinate. But it's too late.
We are bombarded with information every day the problem becomes how do we filter out the junk and nonsense from real information.
And even more critical question for some is do we care if the information is true.
And do we all want to be validated. So validated that we are endlessly looking for echo chambers.
Whether those echo chambers are the friends we keep things or online spaces like Twitter Facebook Reddit, or even more out to field spaces like gab. We often search on information that we want to hear and this doesn't necessarily have to be truthful information. The information we are now digesting has been largely weaponized, and paid for by lobbies and PACs for example, if not downright paid for by its foreign state actors internet research agency and other troll farms, come to mind. And our distrust of any if not all information, I would argue is the goal of the information warfare era. Not to convince a population to think one way or the other. But to make the whole population skeptical of the information they read. And by proxy the experts they use to go to for information.
The fallacies of the world if you will. Instead we want to listen to a reality star turned president who thinks inserting bleach is a proven scientific method to care of violence. That is an object that you're going to test it. And then I said, supposing it brought the light inside the body you can which you can do either through the skin or
in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that
these tactics are used before 2016 that became evident during the last US election cycle. This is not to say these are new tactics, as we have discussed these tactics are as old as time. Something else has had to happen, an erosion of knowledge, and or education. Tell me of the population, if you will, or rather anti intellectual ism quote to compensate for its failure to create a genuine political democracy, America's marched drunkenly into the gutter or what could be determined. Cultural democracy, a pathological condition in which all opinions are equal and argue otherwise it's a accumulations of snobbery pretentious. And down the nose contempt for the quote forgotten man. Cultural democracy, the enemy of the fruit of freedom is not the Wall Street executive hiding us wealth in an offshore tax haven had corrupted the political process through the deployment of large donations and library firms. It is not the SWAT team conducting, quote, no knock raids, that result in the deaths of innocent people. It's not the real estate tycoon turn a television star who writes is called an escalator and relentless racist retort to political power. The true villain and a cultural democracy is the intellectual intellectual insists on the standards of evidence reason and logic, when attempting to reach a conclusion regarding a matter of social import Shanda Mize the dogma, that all nonsense is created equal, which renders her or a deed him unfit for participation in the increasingly masochistic withdrawals of liberty.
get together and do a citizen's arrest on every single human being that goes against the freedom of choice. Okay, you cannot mandate. You literally cannot mandate somebody to wear a mask knowing that that mask is killing people. It literally is killing people. And my, the people we the people are waking up, and we know what citizens arrested because citizens or us are already happening. Okay, and every single one of you that are obeying the devil's laws are going to be arrested. And you, doctor, are going to be arrested for crimes against humanity. Every single one of you. Okay, so what do we do, how do we change course for a more positive future.
That was the crux of why we are here, we have been discussing some pretty dark subjects. Before we
move on, we must cover some basic you started a new job that offers a pension plan matching scheme. The company gets you to sign up. do you. Many do not strangely. If the same company signs you up rather than relying on you to sign up up dough. Way more people take the pension matching scheme, the slight difference and procedure nets a much larger group of users for the pension plan, why well simply put, people are lazy and want an easy option that is not complicated by forcing them to take action to opt out, people had a roadblock to unsubscribe. And of course no one would complain of free money from an employer, so they continue on with the pension scheme savings rates go up, and everyone is happy. No one should be angry at this little act of manipulation as it benefits them. One company I worked for requires you to sign up for the pension plan, I asked how many people actually did. I suspected. It was a very small percentage. Not surprising at all. This manipulation is an example of behavioral economics technique of nudging made famous by case Sunstein and Richard Thaler and their book nudge ever which they learned later won a Nobel Prize in Economics for, quote, there's no such thing as neutral design, small and apparently incentive can details can have major impacts on people's behavior, unquote, Richard Thaler Thaler and his co author had six nudging principles incentives. People make better decisions if you provide the right people with the right incentives. This goes beyond monetary and material incentives, but also include psychological benefits. For example, peace of mind. To understand mappings a warm plea is made for more disclosure to help people make better decisions, make it easier for customers to compare what they are truly paying for and ensure that all hidden fees are exposed as an example. Three defaults defaults are what happens if we do nothing. The Perfect example, especially for those of us who work in IoT security, do you provide a unique default password or the standard, or a standard for all devices you produce for give feedback. A good way to help humans improve their decision making is to provide feedback, but a good example, telling people when they enter passwords that their passwords are bad. During creation, not after submission. Five. Expect error, expect people to make mistakes and designed for people are fallible give option B. Six structure complex choices when there's an overload on choice people tend to find ways to simplify them and break them down. Good choice architecture will find ways to make this more evident for people. Apple reducing product choice, is one great example. I will add to this and out. Always give an option B. You can follow the yellow arrows on the pavement in London, or you don't have to. But if you don't, before warned you make it hit. Now, is a major tool of effective democracies but can also be used to encourage non democratic countries to move in a more positive direction. Well, certainly, a third third terian governments, there's no reason to nudge you could just tell everybody what to do. By failure in this case I think if we're trying to nudge countries to be more democratic one way we can do that is to give them tools from behavioral science to help them achieve those goals without telling citizens exactly what to do, and quote. This is very key
libertarian paternalism is put into practice by nudging individuals in a certain direction. One of the most famous examples of nudging Thaler points out his default enrollment into retirement savings plans, which nudges individuals to save for the future. It is possible to nudge for good or evil, evil and failure discussed nudging for bad as, quote unquote sludge. The basis of Taylor's work is a concept of libertarian paternalism well that may sound like an oxymoron libertarian paternalism is simply the combination of helping people paternalism and preservation of individual choice, libertarianism. It is great to talk about theory, but we need to put it into practice. I want to propose, my own match. Hopefully some police forces deploying a sibling match my note is called I match for a better tomorrow, my criteria must create positive change. Goal decreasing negative and violent interactions with the public by the police force, my method. Give cops bonuses for not for punitive tickets like speeding, but for people doing right. The more tickets they give out, they would get a bonus police would benefit from having positive interactions with the public and the public would gain more trust of the officers, instead of every interaction with the public being a negative form. This would encourage and promote positivity in the police force and might have the added effect of promoting more law abiding citizens by promoting positive behaviors, by top of this officers could get bonuses for every positive interaction reported by the public. Some may say this will promote abuse by the public, but think about it. Who are the police there to serve. I have in the past volunteered with community policing efforts in my home city of Vancouver, where I grew up. I have seen the worst and the best of both the public and the police, I have volunteered and worked with. There are amazing officers doing outstanding work, but this does not take away from the very real systemic issues. That is all I will say about my natural focus on promoting positive interactions between police and the public, they are paid to serve the patient sir all citizens, we need to encourage the good behaviors, and not the bad.
Topics this all six criteria I met with my nudge
with my dog Sophie finishing up the last few scenes of my movie slash presentation, it's different.
Consider again but I keep on thinking
about this concept.
That's us. On the positive chain which
we as hackers makers
programmers coders lived out there so much power. The ability to enjoy and make positive change.
Thousands of, we are a part of
the solutions and economic doctrines.
Every hunter and foragers.
Thank you for whatever you create Thank you for taking the time to listen to my movie, every
presentation. Thank you to the organizers
of hackers on planet earth hopeful child for the opportunities to speak with you today. Every teacher
to present every corrupt politician. Every superstar every suit my name is Sarah cranek
you could find me on Twitter at Nomad hackers species that underscore between those two words
suspended. And that is that,
thank you for your Thank you very Thank
I will leave the final
words with Carl Sagan as he says it best of the rivers
of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors. So that in glorious triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a duck. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent, they are misunderstanding, how eager they are to kill one another. How fervent their hatred. Our posturings, our imagined self importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe are challenged by this point of pale light.
is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark.
In our obscurity, in all this vastness. There is no hint that help will come from elsewhere. To save us from ourselves. The Earth is the only world known so far, to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate visit. Yes,
settled. Not yet.
Like it or not, for the moment. The birth is where we make our stamp.
It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot. The only one we've ever known.
Thank you for
sharing all those incredible videos with us and your thoughts on these these topics of on the battle for emotions and talking about propaganda I think a lot of you audience found it to be inspiring and very informative. I think the first thing I want to ask you about which wasn't one of the questions in the chat but it's something that you responded to there. You mentioned this was really the first sort of video presentation you made tell tell us a little bit about his creative process what how you your research and shows all the content that you inserted, and you're just give us a little background on that please
unmute someone else. There you go. Sure.
Yeah, it's an interesting process I never.
It's, I first had to fight to edit videos, and I had to find one that was free because I wasn't really at this point to pay a bunch of money for one of these fancy programs and I wanted open source so I find a really good program called Caden live. And then I just went at it and trying to figure out how to, how to find videos I had to find everything Creative Commons. And then how to stitch this together how to create a narrative, I basically had to teach myself how to be a video or Movie Maker director slideshow, whatever you want to call it. And about two days flat, because I had to get this thing done. I was originally just going to do a plain stand in front of the green screen and give a normal presentation but I thought this avenue would present a better way to tell a narrative. So you're telling a narrative within a narrative and I thought that was an interesting perspective.
On behalf of all the people that are watching, I think it works here we succeeded in that narrative, the narrative and I think that the choice of all the videos was just magnificent I really like Tolstoy. Thank you.
I'm curious about propaganda versus marketing I'd like to ask if you can answer the definition and thinking just as an example of in America is you might be familiar with NASA's work to sell the space program during the 1960s and even into today. There's a fantastic book about of marketing the moon, and it's to me when you read this is clearly the same exact techniques that we use and the propaganda that you showed. So are they really the same and just matter of definition or is propaganda versus marketing. More important distinction we should think about.
I think they're pretty similar
actually in my mind I mean, trying to sell an idea, right, whether you're trying to sell a NASA program or you're trying to sell Nazi Germany policies to somebody you're still selling something you're selling an idea you're selling a concept, you're selling a way of life, maybe perhaps even, but I think I use the i think that's that's was my mind behind the abeka at the German grocery store. It has nothing to do groceries right it is, it sold the idea of something, but not groceries itself. And yourself, selling this idea of something so I in my mind, I don't think there is a difference, because yeah I really isn't I think it's just the approach that you take in the sense of like what are your end goals. But, Taylor particular talks a little bit about advertising what he writes about, and he also says that you can use it for good or bad and I think marketing is one of those things it's a matter of perspective from your political perspective what is good and what is bad, right, we can advertise a, let's say, I don't know LGBT rights to some people that may be good to other people that might be bad. Is that a good use I think it's a good use, or maybe somebody else might disagree with me.
Do you think there's such a thing as conceptual manipulation and people. Yeah.
voluntarily those in the situation.
Yeah, Well that's, that's why the statute I like this idea of this nurturing idea this using behavioral economics because you as the research shows it's about giving people an option B. So if I give you an option A to throw your trash out. I also need to give you the option to not throw your trash out or throw it in the bin, let's say, so So I see given out. Then I don't think you're forcing anything on anybody because you have that option not to do something right I, the famous one I remember was a UK they did to get them to pay their taxes right all they wrote was all your fellow. People are all your fellow citizens are paying their taxes. And that's all they said, and there was more adherence to paying taxes. But it didn't force them to pay taxes, right, it still gave them the option to not pay their taxes. So as long as you keep that out, I think you're fine. If you start saying like and like a lot of dictators Do you do this or we're gonna send you off to a concentration camp, then you're on that line of manipulation you have no choice. So, that's something I think you can never keep in mind. We're just in our last few seconds here. Do you have any recommendations any favorite books, podcasts articles that are related to propaganda, the world that history the things that you've talked about, like recommend. Yeah, if you want to go down the rabbit hole there's nothing specific besides Taylor's work, his classic nudge, which was one of my favorite books, but anything of behavioral economics actually one of my favorites podcasts is actually Freakonomics,
and they go into a lot of these topics.
So yeah, I guess I would start there and just start reading up on
that type of stuff for me.
Might just start going it gets pretty dark and so make sure you have a good positive mind when you start to go down that rabbit hole. Well, thank you. Well, we're at the end of our time and listening with talking and hearing from Oryx was a self created hacker that runs the world in search for enlightenment again reading that fantastic sentence, and I feel like you've enlightened us all tonight and thank you very much and hope you enjoy the conference. Thanks for having me. It has been a pleasure.