Ring's Wrongs: Surveillance Capitalism, Law Enforcement Contracts, and User Tracking
3:44PM Jul 29, 2020
I just want to say. Communication is hard. We all see our tiny little bit of the world and make sense of it based on what we've seen before. Based on the first source that seemed trustworthy. Then we talk to each other using the best words, we know and maybe the people we're talking to will have the same mental model for those words.
We're all just doing the best we can.
And for a large group of people, for something to be communicated clearly as we're all just bumping into each other in perfectly communicating, whatever it is, one on one person to person.
Communication is hard.
We're all just doing that.
Hello, my name is Mitch Altman, and before 2006. I was just a geek. Now I'm still a geek. But 2006 was my first hacker conference, it was hope. Number six, and it changed my life forever because of it. I started giving talks all over the world they started giving workshops all over the world I started a hackerspace, I started helping other people with hackerspaces. I started doing all sorts of way cool things all because of the people I met and the experiences I had at my first hacker conference. All at hope number six. I hope that you get to experience, hope, 2020, and whatever other hacker conferences and hacker events and hacker mindsets and hacker thingies that you like doing it's way worth doing maybe it'll change your life for the way better to I think it will. I hope it will. In any case, I hope you will join us for hope.
my name is Mitch Altman, and before 2006,
Hello Ronnie rep from Hawaii,
I just wanted to send a great aloha to everyone out there well wishes of healthiness and happiness. I am a cybersecurity Project Manager for a government contractor company here in Hawaii. I'm also a Polynesian and fire dancer. So I live a well balanced life in technical and personable work, hope you're enjoying hope 2020 is a little sample of my fire arts. Enjoy.
Amazon Amazon's ring smart doorbell is a popular home safety purchase, but ring monitors more than your home security through secretive partnerships with law enforcement agencies and tracking companies, all while maintaining lackluster security themselves. Our next talk will catalog rings wrongs and Fs campaign against these practices. We present bill Budington with rings wrongs surveillance capitalism, law enforcement contracts and user tracking
there. My name is Bill Buffington, and I work for the Electronic Frontier Foundation. I'm here to present today on rings wrongs surveillance capitalism, law enforcement contracts and user tracking. First of all, before I get into that, is the Electronic Frontier Foundation, are a digital rights nonprofit based in the San Francisco Bay Area consists of this mythical triforce of technologists lawyers and activists technologists like myself, work on projects like HTTPS Everywhere, which encrypts the web, when it can. And we also work on Privacy Badger, which is a browser plugin that protects your browser from trackers lawyers have worked on historic cases like Bernstein versus the Department of Justice, which made encryption possible up to this present day. Activists basically work on organizing communities against surveillance like the type that we're going to see today. We fight for encryption privacy and security on the internet. You can find us online at ef f.org. By, and why should you listen to me. I'm the senior staff technologist at the E FF. I was the lead developer at HTTPS Everywhere. From 2015 to 2018, and I'm currently the lead developer of pen optic. I also work as a digital security trainer for groups of activists journalists and nonprofits and most relevant for today's talk. I am a privacy and security auditor for apps like ring.
So what is Ring,
ring is a company that was founded in 2013, and was acquired by Amazon in 2017 for an undisclosed amount in the ballpark of 1.2 to $1.8 billion. They built home security systems which are another way of saying really terrible surveillance apparatus. Now, all this data is channeled into Amazon's servers. Like footage from cameras. So ring produces these cameras that can be pointed at the street, can be built into your home alarm system, and can even kind of enable Smart Lighting if you are walking through a path, their flagship product is the ring doorbell. So what is the ring doorbell. This is what it looks like, and it's a smart doorbell. Which alerts you when someone is at your door. Getting motion activated. So it starts recording when someone shows up at your door, and also allows for two way communication between yourself and whoever is out there, allows you to see them in real time on your phone with the ring app. So, what is the ring app. Well this is kind of what it looks like. It allows. It's available for iOS and Android. Also for Windows 10 and Mac OS. And it allows you to get real time footage of the ring doorbell, you have installed.
Also historical footage that you've taken before.
So the ring app. Oops. So, rings videos can be shared, either to your friends or also to law enforcement if you still choose, but only kind of there's this social function that really tries to tie into, and this is our neighbors app, it's kind of a neighborhood watch app. It looks a lot like next door, where you have these alerts that are in your neighborhood. If something fishy happens. So, if a neighbor, you got real time crime alerts are sent to your door, you can have push notifications that are sent to you. And it goes all to your phone. In, in real time. There are some real huge social ills caused by ring which is part of the surveillance white collar surveillance industrial complex. One is paranoia. Two is this sense of racial bias and racial bias being a real part that's embedded into technology, the erosion of the public sphere is another big part of this. And the ownership of data, going from you, into the cloud. First of all, let's get into police partnerships and how that causes some of the paranoia that we're talking about. Bring partners with law enforcement throughout the country. It's not just in one particular locale. And what happens is that ring provides them with access there's a vast surveillance apparatus that they never dreamed of.
Three exploits a relationship between
trust that isn't placed in police and public servants, and they use that to broaden their customer base in general. This is caused this kind of inappropriate relationship between public servants and private industry to take an analogy. It would be completely inappropriate. If I was a car dealership and I went to the police, offering them a new car. And, you know, I said you can have this new car, but only if you promise to promote my dealership. There's a word for that it's actually called bribery. But in this case, because it's part of some kind of surveillance system. It looks like we are doing public service. So, so what this amounts to is this completely inappropriate relationship between the private sector and public servants. So, how do they form these police partnerships, they do this, aggressive outreach to police. In the example that we have from Chula Vista in Southern California. They applied a year of pressure to Chula Vista police, sending them emails, offering them discounts mentioning that neighboring police departments had already signed up for. For the ring system. And they also pointed out, kind of a shaming tactic almost that ring hat or the tool of Easter had an increase in crime, and they mentioned the study that we can solve that. If only you sign up for the ring program. In a study that has since been debunked. They say that their doorbell will decrease crime but, but, uh, this is their initial reports and this were debunked by MIT. So, in this quote. I'm not sure if peer pressure is a good thing or not, but I just wanted to make you aware that there are that you know neighborhood neighboring police departments are joining the program and will be on boarded shortly.
So you have seen us real peer pressure coming to bear.
And it's been successful, you've seen rapid expansion of law enforcement partnerships across the country. The team this graph that they had a rapid expansion and starting in 2019, and all the way to 2020 to the current day there, they're, you know really getting a lot of police Park Police to sign up for ring. 1400 agencies in all how partnerships with ring and 600 in the last six months alone. Not only is ring selling its products to the police. Police are specifically assigned to pedal rings surveillance cameras on to their citizens. So in this motherboard article. There's, it says that their company no in this case are contractually obligated to promote ring products, once they sign up for them. So, in the city of Arcadia you can see this example of like, look at how there's a big sale of $100 off when a free ring doorbell. Police and public service, police were trusted to be public servants are really starting to sell this on to the public as a way to, you know, apparently, you think keep yourself safe. They're using public money to do it. Look at this graphic here it looks like a, you know, professional graphic designer has has made this. What we're seeing is public money is being funneled into the police and the police are promoting a private product that's being used to surveil the public in general. So, once you sign up for ring once you get a ring camera. Police have you mapped. So police are given a list of ring cameras that are active once person signs up worked. Once they sign up to be a partner of ring. And what happens is that they have the ability to do a reverse map lookup on anywhere that they want to survive. So, if there is some incident or they want to surveil something in you know certain block they can take a five block radius, all the active cameras in that area. And I was on actually creates these maps and delivers them right to any police that are partnered with Ray. So they basically say, here's all the cameras you have, we have access to. So, more cameras for us so you'll have more access to footage. This is an example of one of the maps that police can see of ring cameras that are active in their jurisdiction. In addition, they police that are partnered with ring are providing ring. Real Time tap into their computer aided dispatch system. So what Computer Aided dispatch is the system that was developed in the 1990s. In order for emergency responders to get to the scene quickly and help people out when they're in danger. But what you see is that the police are actually just getting this data over to ring. In order to feed into their neighbors app crime news alerts. In this way, push alerts can be sent directly to phones, citizens, and it goes into the system that instills fear and drives more sales for ring cameras once people are worried about what's happening in their neighborhood. In addition, they've been involved or at least interested in deploying facial recognition technologies with their ring cameras to create watch lists of what's no suspicious character in a neighborhood. There's a real lack of transparency that's happening here. In the words of my colleague, Matthew griglia. There's a reason why Amazon was able to build up hundreds of thousands or hundreds of police partnerships. Before journalists and civil liberties advocates even knew about it. The reason for that is because they've been required to keep secret about it in Lakeland, Florida police departments signed this secret agreement to encourage adoption of ring and secret of contracts have used or been, you know, police have been required to sign to keep the terms of their partnership with ring confidential.
These are, you know, Not only is it a secret agreement, but often the fed the press line directly to the police. Like we have seen in Bloomfield, New Jersey, where the entirety, almost about to release that the police put out was drafted by ring. And when the police said something that ring didn't like ring had them go back and correct it. So Amazon's ring police partnerships have actually even raised concern at the security industry groups that they are supposedly in the same industry of, they've gotten so bad that they've even made the surveillance industry worried. This causes this kind of feedback loop where police promote the ring cameras. And then ring sells more cameras, and they're able to do more outreach to police. And then rings customers get really paranoid and they contact the police more. And this in turn feeds more paranoia via, for instance the neighbors app. And this fear drives more sales of ring cameras and more in a richer balance. So there's this feedback loop that happens. The main takeaway from this is well for you not to get into neighborhood paranoia, these are literally your neighbors that we're talking about that we're pointing cameras at this isn't some you know Ocean's 11 type casino heist. We've seen that in the US. According to the FBI violent crime has actually steadily been declining over the last few decades since its post 1970 height. And we're actually at the safest point that we've almost ever been at, but the paranoia that drives the sales of ring cameras is required to have more ring cameras to more people to to install them for police have more access to footage. So, so this is a real problem. That, that is really unfounded people are already safe.
And there's this huge racial bias problem.
So, in the next door app. You have instances of real. I would say just straight out racism, where people that are darker skin, going through a neighborhood prompts resident to take up an arm and follow them. And these instances, have caused the next door co chair prior to, to really address the problems in her platform to hire racial bias trainers, or people that train racial bias, out of people to to train racial bias to train moderators of next door to look for racial bias in posts and try to mitigate the instances of that. But ring hasn't done the same. There's this huge problem of erosion of the public sphere that ring cameras, cause. So ring in transmitting all these fears the American suburbs causes people to cameras at each other. And we, in turn, cause this big surveillance network that you know we're a part of to voluntarily create a surveillance network out of all of us. In addition, ring has actually set up a tiered discount system. And especially communities or, or cities that have partnered with ring have promoted, or some of them have promoted ring cameras know by how much a person installs ring camera is able to pick up the public. So in this instance if you're able to install a ring camera that can get it your front porch or driveway and you're getting a 40% discount or you're getting a 60% discount. When you can surveil the entire block. So, this is really disturbing. This means that municipalities are are encouraging people to erode the public sphere to make us. If you're walking down the street. You don't have the same privacy expectations as you had before. In addition, there's this problem of cloud storage and warrants and traditional police work. If an incident happens. A police officer goes to the neighborhood where it happened, tries to take notes, look at cameras that are installed on a pole over there, or in front of a business over here. And once those cameras have been identified. Go to the owners of the cameras and ask for that footage. And that entails user notification. So the business knows when they are they've been asked or their footage has been asked for an additional fee, choose not to get over that, you know, voluntarily. Then the police can go through some kind of due process, go to a court, get a judge to sign a warrant to get access to the footage. If it's, you know, reasonable. This entails certain amount of de facto rate limiting where if please have to go to separate businesses to get footage. Then they can't automatically get a bunch of footage all at once they have to kind of do some amount of legwork each step of the way. In turn, what's happening now is that Amazon is able to bypass user notification. So, if a someone who installs a ring camera is doesn't want to get over that footage, then they can go directly to the police can go directly to Amazon and say, Hey, we want the footage turned over. Amazon also gives them, pointing click access to this footage so that whatever portal that they give the police to use that to get the footage of a massive swath of their jurisdiction. And the footage, according to Amazon is actually owned by Amazon. When you sign up for a ring. You are forced to basically agree to this Terms of Service, that is completely overly broad quoted you hereby grant ring and its licensees, and unlimited irrevocable fully paid and royalty free perpetual worldwide rights to exploit shared content for any purpose. That's pretty downrod if it yes me.
And with all this information and trusted to ring, you'd expect that their security practices, would be top notch. Unfortunately that's not the case at all. As recently as February 2019, we've seen footage being sent in the clear, according to bullguard security, and their encryption, when they send footages was completely inadequate. It actually allowed the security researchers in this instance, to not only see feeds, but to inject their own feeds into the ring doorbell system. So, they were able to inject footage of their own that they've prepared to make it look like it came from a specific rain camera. That's pretty frightening. And in December 2019 this incident happens.
I'm your best friend,
as eight year old Alyssa LeMay stood in her room, a terrifying voice spoke to her.
I'm Santa Claus. Don't you want to be my best friend,
the horrifying sound coming from this ring security camera installed in the child's bedroom, which she shares with her two sisters, come downstairs.
And I hear some banging noise like that,
for five minutes the voice taunting the young girl playing strange music. Even instructing her to destroy her room. You can mess up your room can break your TV can do whatever you want. The LeMay family installed the camera just days before the device was apparently hacked.
I watched the video and I mean my naked watch them sleeping I could have watched them changing I mean they could have seen all kinds of things.
This just the latest hack of an in home security
cameras over the week.
So some pretty disturbing
things that have been caused by the LeClair cluster security of ring itself. And just a week after that happened. 36,000 accounts of ring were breached due to a credential stuffing attack. So what credential stuffing attack means is that Katherine's have a site, a site that does not ring. And then some hackers use the credentials that have been found on rings login portal and try to log in. What's interesting about this incident is that 3600 accounts, had the same passwords and ring kind of tried to place the blame on its customers for this breach. It said, you know, well, you need to, you know, choose secure passwords, but it itself wasn't using the basic standards of web application security that we've seen interest, you know, when websites which are entrusted to you so much sensitive data have access to all this data. You need to actually lock down those accounts. They were credential stuffing, you know, involves taking hundreds thousands of hacked accounts and then trying more logins and in 3600 cases this was successful on this. And that many logins happen means there's a lot of logins that that don't succeed, that accounts that don't get hacked and means that hackers were trying over and over again, and not getting in failed password attempts. They had to have some kind of rate limiting system in place in order to secure down their site, which they didn't have. They also didn't mandate two factor authentication, which for the sensitivity other footage, they should have been doing. But, yeah, this this route, you know, resulted in a big breach for ring. And in January 20 2004 ring employees got fired for basically accessing footage in an unauthorized manner. And these were employees which were not, you know, top tier system administrators. These were for low level, winning employees that got fired, which means the Amazon employees can just see your data. These employees were able to just access all data on armoring cameras and the footage on ring cameras. And so that's really quite a disturbing insight into how seriously they take their data. So with all this, he decided to take on ring. We pointed out their privacy Brett's pointed out their shady dealings with the police. We talked about how Congress got involved. And we also let people know about how they were throwing their own customers under the bus. Now unfortunate unfortunately this didn't get rings attention in the way that we would have liked. But we thought that one person might be able to get rings attention. That person is Shaquille O'Neal. Yep, that particular meal. Weirdly enough. Chuck is a deputized cop, which you wouldn't expect to be a traditional career path after being in the NBA. But, yeah, so we launched this campaign,
police departments can now use an app to access footage uploaded by ring users
company says its goal is to eventually have every law enforcement agency in the country on its police portal.
The whole backyard ghosts.
Come sit down with us one on one and hear how these law enforcement partnerships with ring are threatening Americans rights,
people by these thinking they're just buying a camera for really they're selling their own privacy. With one click,
police can request footage from any ring camera. And even if you refuse, they can go directly to Amazon with a warrant, and obtain footage from your door,
and it's not just your privacy it's your friends and your neighbors privacy too. Don't forget your neighbors ring camera is pointing at your house
BFF has been fighting the surveillance state since you were at Louisiana State, we know how technologies like rain can harm our communities. If we wanted help learning how to dunk we come to you. If you want to learn how ubiquitous surveillance puts us all in danger. You should come to us. We'll be waiting.
So we want this nothing but dragnet campaign which, you know, we thought was pretty great. But, unfortunately it didn't have the results that we that we desired which checked in, when I sit down with us, didn't really give us much time, but someone did notice, and those that someone is actually five someone's five senators that demanded some information from ring, the senators were from Oregon, Maryland, Delaware, Michigan and Massachusetts. And we're particularly concerned about the ability of Ukrainian ring employees to have virtually unfettered access to rings footage. So it's not just us employees. You Ukrainian employees. Ring can get footage from all across the world. So, with this we decided to look at rings app, and investigate what's going on with the ring app. We found it to be packed with third party trackers. And these trackers. First of all, we were investigating ring 3.2 1.1 on Android. And we found four major marketing and analytics firms branched off i o mixpanel comm out spire, and Facebook. And here you can see some of ups. So this is Sterling because they have a page where they're supposed to mention the third party services that they offer, but out of the four that we found. mixpanel was mentioned. So they were not mentioning, these three other analytics companies and marketing companies that they included in their app, which is really disturbing given the breadth of information that was being delivered. For instance, in branch the iOS case you have persistence unique identifiers, like hardware ID identity ID fingerprint ID device fingerprint. And these are separate from what for what you know instance, if you look at Android settings, a marketing or advertising ID. Those can be randomized, those are in users control in some shape way shape or form, these are, these will persist, even if you clear your advertising ID and the operating system level. It also has things like language, your local IP address for your home network. Android version and screen dpi. and also if you're using Wi Fi or not. So here are some of the data that was collected by Facebook branch, appsflyer, and mixpanel, and mixpanel by far got the most data. We got users full names email addresses device info Bluetooth enabled or not. So not only do these companies know about specific information about their device, they knew know all sorts of personal details about you. And really what's startling is that if they have little bits of information, the danger in sending even small bits of information to analytics and tracking companies is that they have technologies that can combine these bits of data into fingerprints, that form a unique picture of your device and follow you around with your usage of that device. So, just to speak to some of the methodology that we used. In this case, we used a piece of technology called minimum proxy, which is able to intercept even HTTPS traffic by installing a forged certificate authority in your phone. But that didn't work for some reason, and we were curious about that. So we also use Frida, which is this dynamic analysis toolkit, which allows you to basically get in the way when a certificate validation is happening, and spoofs this part of androids Java API which is called trust factory, which which authenticates websites and says, yep, instead of actually authenticating and just says Yep, you're good. So in this case, we were able to get our own certificates accepted in the app and view that traffic. So this caused a big media splash. New York Times had this article with a very creepy graphic saying your doorbell camera spied on you. Now what
Los Angeles Times had this ringing out shares your personal data with Facebook and others report fines and the Guardian reported on it as well as a whole bunch of other media organizations.
Brings response was this.
Well, two factor authentication is mandatory. So that's actually a good step forward. Okay. All right, let's see what else. Well, temporarily renew some third party trackers, which to me is completely meaningless. Which third party trackers, and for how long. And, you know, we give opt out for trackers use marketing, you know, what's crazy about this whole thing is that we're already profiting from police partnerships from you buying their ring camera, but they also wanted to profit it from you as a ring customer, giving your data to them. So they take your data, and they use that for marketing purposes and for not marketing purposes. But don't worry, you're allowed to opt out, meaning you have to actively take part in opting out from your personal data being used to track you. This doesn't address the fundamental problems that we had brought up in our blog posts and in our activism ring must end the rapid expansion of police partnerships. Ring must allow users to give access scoped access to police so that if they come to you, seeking information on a particular crime. They can't use that information to charge someone else with another crime or just hand it over to another police department. Ring must turn off automatic audio recording. On motion activation so that if I'm walking across the street and your ring camera is pointed at me that my phone call isn't recorded by you. And finally, just no facial recognition. Just don't do it. And also implement measures, and this is a really interesting point and movement measures that require warrants to be served to device owners and not to Amazon. Because of that notification principle because then you can refuse to hand that over, and then they have to go and get a warrant for it. We thought about how this would be possible technologically to enable them.
So we kind of
thought about this in terms of encryption, that Amazon could implement in their ring end to end encryption for ring to protect footage. So, and then encryption for ring footage, what would that mean well it would mean that you encrypted devices locally on, say, or you encrypt footage locally on say the ring doorbell. And then when you upload it, the cloud gets that image but they only get an encrypted form of that footage. So, Amazon themselves can't decrypt that footage. It actually reestablishes this principle that I talked about before, of de facto rate limiting in traditional police investigations where requests are given on an individual basis. You know, you actually police will still have to go to each ring device owner and ask for that footage. And then the device owner can choose whether they want to give that footage over or not. It puts that legwork that has been so vital in ensuring the police aren't able to get everything all the time, and puts that really limiting you know reestablishes that rate limiting. And finally, in so doing it gives users notification that there but it just being requested and removes the case where you have nosey ring employees trying to get at their neighbors or their ex girlfriends or boyfriends footage. So there are have been some recent developments as well. In the first quarter of 2020. He found because of the Congressional requests during that 5000s times ring or police have requested footage from ring doorbells. This is just the first quarter of 20 alone.
when the Black Lives Matter protests started happening, Amazon released the statement that was lip service to Black Lives Matter, and lip service to protecting the lives of black people in the US. And what we see is that they're actually giving this automated system of surveillance, that can be used on protesters across the country to police. Oh, is that any way in solidarity How is that in any way just how is that not enabling the very violence that people are protesting against over a third, we found of police encounters that have caused a fatality have been by police that have been partnered with ring.
This has led us to conclude that ringless,
enabling police violence in the most deadly of police police forces. Like Louisville, Kentucky, municipal police. That took the life of Brianna Taylor, earlier this year. So rings Stokes fears and racial prejudices, in our society. This was an article by CBS News where racial prejudices and paranoia is that in American society are actually being are being stoked by by Rams like ring. And they actually produced a small documentary if you want to check it out, called racial profiling 2.0 detailing some of their findings. And the quote in that article. These apps are dangerous because they don't only reflect people's biases about marginalized people, but it just legitimize that bias. As an effect, or as an effective guide for addressing crime. So, and that's a quote by me. Misha he's director at media justice, and, you know, that kind of that quote really drives home the point that biases are already there. When you have systems that really Stoke this paranoia is that it causes people to to view everyone with a suspicion view their neighbors as suspicion sees someone just crossing the street or just taking a walk, see them as, you know, a suspicious character, especially if they already have those biases
and and it results in tragedy
rings reaction to all this, and their criticism. Our criticism about their enabling racial bias has been the terrible. So they've actually gamified the process of reporting for neighbors for suspicious activity. They've created programs where on neighbors. If you're incentivized to report, you know, on whatever activity you might think are deemed suspicious. This quote, at the end of it kind of just, just drives home. It seems to incentivize reckless behavior. This is dangerous and irresponsible and it's going to result in tragedy.
What can we do about it.
First of all, there are these initiatives called Community control over police surveillance. And what it does is a police force wants to buy surveillance equipment, then they're forced to do it through a process that's transparent to the community that goes to the city council for instance, and makes it so that they have to get it approved. So it puts control back in the hands of citizens, when their police want to bring some spy on them.
just go back to that point. For those initiatives, if they're happening in your community support them if they're not happy in your community. Talk to your city councilor their public servants to make sure that they know about see cops initiatives and might want to bring it up in your city. Secondly, if you're thinking about getting a ring camera, and maybe just reconsider. Thirdly, if you have a ring product, then contact during about all the concerns that we have brought up here in this talk, you know, hopefully you're like me and, and have these, you know, real concerns about the injurious effect that it has on our society. So you can actually just talk to them and say I'm a customer. I'm mad as hell about it. And don't give into fear mongering and paranoia. Don't give into that system. Finally, you can support our work at E FF, you can go to X, ff.org, and sign our petition, telling Amazon, telling ring. That should enter police partnerships. And you can donate to us at supporters dot F f.org and
support our work. Porter work in informing the public in forums like this. So,
very much, and I think it's time for questions and answers.
This is brings wrongs surveillance capitalism law enforcement contracts and user tracking with Bill Budington Bill, thank you very much for joining us today.
Thanks for having me.
We have just a few minutes for a quick q&a if those of you in our matrix chat audience can post your questions to the livestream channel. They will be related here, one question we got early on is that is there a free software alternative to ring. I know how to add a webcam to an SBC with a button but is there an ethical alternative that regular people can purchase.
Yeah, so I know there are a lot of options out there for IP cameras, some of them are more or less connected than others.
And certainly any other option and ring is going to not have the problem of partnerships across the country. There is an open source alternative that that I have used in the past called our PI cam web interface. So basically you just take a Raspberry Pi. If you're technically inclined to do so just take it run your PI probably our PI three or above not this whole thing. And then you connect one of these little, you know, camera modules do it. And then once you install that software. It'll allow you to do some of the same things you can do like motion detection, and it'll start recording and things like that. So yeah, there are some options out there. You know, I think that, you know, any option out there right now is better than than written because of all the problems I've stated.
Yeah, that's another latest pies have some crazy high quality camera options for them. So that's worth looking into a member of the audience asks, do you have a list of police departments that work with Amazon.
So, relied on reporting by motherboard advice.
You know, and other agencies, I think that we do have a list, individual you can look up. You know, if you use the ring out it'll tell you now that we have this kind of control panel. Whether you your own police department is is partnered with ring.
Yeah, but I think that that list is available I was not sure exactly where I can. Oh,
another viewer asks, Do you know if other Amazon own security cameras like blink x T two are
are included in the same place access process.
So, no ring. This is a specific program that they've been partnering with police was ugly ring has been for a while they've been kind of catering these relationships, alongside the same time when they were bought by by Amazon so yeah I wouldn't expect the same level of partnership between other cameras on by Raven, or sorry, other cameras on by Amazon. And, and, you know, suddenly have a partnership access
other member of the audience asks if they're recording audio conversations to which they're not party. Doesn't this finally criminal law and like every state.
So it really depends on the state, there are some states that required two party consent to record audio. There are some states that require only one party consent to record audio. So it really depends on your specific state whether you live in a one party or two party state. I would refer that question to our layers in order to answer that because I'm not myself
and Bobby's just got a minute left. while we're wrapping up, can you tell us once again where people can go who are interested in this subject to get further info about your work and how to contact you.
Yeah, for sure, you can just email me email@example.com. You can look on our deep links, blog posts, or just go to ff.org slash ring. And that has a lot more info that you check out.
Excellent. Bill, thank you very much for joining us today. I hope 2020.