Empathy, Equity, and Sex/Tech at the Margins
1:58AM Jul 28, 2020
Our next presentation will be a conversation about the opportunities and challenges at the intersection of sex and technology issues like data ownership privacy and security and digital economic and social mobility. Very proud.
Hello Hello 2020, and welcome to empathy and digital space empathy equity and sex tech at the margins, I am Dr Kidd Stubbs my pronouns are they, them, I am thrilled to be back for my fourth hope, and this year I am really excited to be bringing to the stage as xR
Hello everyone, I'm sad, we are not meeting IRL instead where a meeting URL that's what the, that's what Gen Z says, so I picked that up. My name is x Noir, I am a self proclaimed thought leader of sex technology. I am the host of a podcast called. I'm the host of a podcast called thought leader pod where we navigate the intersections of sex work sex tech privacy, security, dating, and just sex technology as a whole. I'm also the host of common thoughts, a documentary navigating how COVID-19 is impacting the sex industry. And last but not least, I am the Vice President of the women of sex technology, a community FM identifying came up with people who are navigating the world of sex technology.
So, I was so excited to see I got to meet sx last fall at a hacking hustling symposium at Harvard which was really trying to center sex workers in the conversation on sex tech and privacy and getting to meet them and talk about I was like I was like okay we got to get you to hope. And so, I'm so excited to have her here we are going to we're really going to have kind of a conversation sort of an, I'm going to interview sx about they've been doing a lot of really awesome work and awesome thinking around sex TAC and empathy and I think I think those are things that y'all will really enjoy so we're very excited to have this conversation. We're going to start with sex and the wife and I are going to chat for a while and then at the end we'll open it up to your questions and we'll get you involved in the conversation as well.
yay. It was amazing
yeah like last time so when we met at Harvard It was my first time ever at Harvard. And I was like, Ooh, I'm at Harvard. And it was amazing happy hustling curated this group of speakers and different teachings, and we're sitting there in a lecture room at Harvard I'm going this wild and it was a rainy day and I think it was all kind of indoors the entire time and I drove in on the mega bus that day and it was just so amazing to be in camaraderie with people who are very interested in championing sex river rides so that was a really, that was an awesome day.
And so we started talking about what we could talk about and what what of us our exes work, what of your work we could bring here. One of the first things that really intrigued me was you started talking about empathy and empathy in digital space. So when we, when you think about empathy and digital space what what are you talking about.
So, it's important to I love definitions, I think we all are interpreted in our own text we all have our own definitions, but the general definition of empathy is the ability to share and understand the feelings of one another. And I believe that as we navigate digital space, even more, we are losing, empathy, we are losing the ability to understand someone else's emotions and understand the importance of sharing that space with someone else, whether they be happiness or discomfort. And so what I'm seeing is that in digital space we have a lot of disassociation and just kind of split reality thinking when it comes to navigating the emotions that you have in digital space, regarding social, emotional impact. So yeah, that's kind of that's kind of what I mean by empathy in digital space of how are we creating and designing for people to be able to to relate to others and not only relate, but care and reward that and reward the caring of other people in their feelings.
Yeah, and I, I certainly feel like particularly as a queer non binary person for me when I think of empathy, it's like yeah, when I when someone tells you who they are, you take it, you accept it. You go from there, like, okay, your name, you know, my name is kit my pronouns are they, them my gender is on binary. Great, that's a given right somebody may use labels for themselves that you don't know you haven't heard of, well, that's their, that's what it is, like,
and. Absolutely. And I think that that's something that I've learned I've learned so much from this expert community and that is one of the things I've learned is, when you enter a space how you who you say you are and how you identify and how you present and how you say you live reality is that is actively accepted. I believe there is a lot of, when we talk about upholding the tools of white supremacy questioning someone's identity and their reality is absolutely a tool by supremacy. And again, or off the bat we don't drop the big word white supremacy you'll hear it again.
But it's a bit different from you know for example capitalism etc you know it's something that is very strategic and making people feel inferior or that they are not good enough. And so something I love to practice is radical empathy that absolutely involves medical thoughtfulness you know the thought leader th ot awfulness that you accept them as who they say they are imagine imagine how that must feel. Imagine how that must feel to just be accepted for the reality you want to live in.
Now you talked a little bit about dissociation in digital space, can you tell me a little bit more sort of about what that means and if you're comfortable like about some of your experience with that.
Yeah, I mean I'm millennials, I'm a millennial I'm 24 years old. So I have this weird straddling the world to play okay so my parents didn't have technology my grandparents sure as hell did not have technology and I mean, digital technologies and social media cell phones, etc. They didn't have that so those dynamics of learning how to navigate that was not something we were taught at all. And so I got technology, as far as social tech around when I was about 1213 and guess what's happening around 1213 liberty. We're growing into ourselves we're trying to understand who we are and so when we talk about this association, you know, for example, I'm on my space and I put you know cute boy DM me, and we are having this interaction but then maybe let's say it goes negative. I'm more likely to disassociate from that experience those emotions and that feelings, because it is not something that one I can tangibly touch, and be that is not socially acceptable to be distressing and to be harmful and hurtful. So when I go on to try to share, oh I was really hurt by this person digital space, there's several things happening one people are like, Why are you so hurt. And then two, we'll just get over it. So we kind of are socially training people to disassociate from digital space in a way that we don't get the privilege of doing that physical space, you know, if someone comes up to you and says something really insulting in person, you have to respond to react in that moment right our fight or flight goes into active. It goes into active motion versus digital space, you kind of have okay well there's a lot more there's a lot more layers of understanding how this is impacting us and our emotions.
And I feel like
it seems that for sure for black and indigenous people of color, that's just going to compound right you may be dealing with massage Noir. I know for queer trans people of color it's like, Oh well you've got the racism and the homophobia and transphobia all trying to potentially apply at the same time.
Right, so something that we have to acknowledge I'm reading this brilliant book by.
I'm reading this brilliant book called tech Napoli by Neil Postman. Okay. And he talks about the function of technology and how the very function of it has a bias and an intention of how people are to learn. Right. So, the he talks about how the photograph is not the, the enemy of the painter. You know, the, the, the writer is not the enemy of the television person and so navigating that more understanding that when we create new technologies we create new functions of society, there's no adding to it completely radically changed. So when you're navigating digital space specifically the internet, specifically social media, you're having two things fighting each other all the time. One, the rapid sharing of information and knowledge available, and then to the wanting to uphold capitalistic white supremacy patriarchal misogynistic views that we see in physical space we want to maintain that in digital space so you see this constant fight about okay what I know better, but this is how the world's always been functioning. And it's the same way for by PFC people right so in digital space while you may as you'll see, you may feel more liberated, but there's so many things on the back end that are actually actively oppressing you. And so this is what we're seeing that's happening in digital space we're seeing that we're seeing that the same things that are happening in physical space as far as harassment abuse. That's all I need to say it really is happening again in digital space it's echoing echoing in digital space because the same people who are making digital space are the same people who have created the rules socially and otherwise, and in physical space.
Well, that kind of brings me to the next thing. Yeah, that I was hoping we were talking about is okay. Let's talk about designing for empathy in tech and insects tech, who's who's building this how do we how do we encourage reward, how do we how do we have that radical thoughtfulness as designers.
empathy is the understanding of sharing someone's emotions and experiences. And so, something to understand is that empathy is not to convince or to manipulate someone or a different reality or understating It is simply to have the ability to share the feelings of another. Right. So when you're asking, how do we design for tech that encourages empathy, it starts by your lived experience, creating tech for your lived experience so one of my favorite brands fubu for us by us, is a black cultural way of saying nothing about us without us you know we are the people who should be creating our experience should be creating our world. And so when you the essential thing that's needed to create empathy in digital space is the person who's lived experiences creating for that person that I know that makes sense I shouldn't say does that make sense but you know I'm a black woman woman. Woman it shouldn't be a white man creating things for black women or, you know, Latino people, etc. And so that's kind of the biggest disconnect that I've seen around tech design is that people specifically sis white men are saying well I can innovate for this industry I can create a product for this person in reality it may not you may not be the best person to create this product you may not be the best person to create a design that's actually going to help we impact this user of this technology, and this this transcends beyond just digital spaces, it's also physical space as well, that you have to take this in consideration of planning and designing around empathy when you are creating technology
that makes sense that makes sense. And so, I mean if we look at so I pulled up. So wired did a report on the results of sort of internal company diversity studies from 2019, they were looking at sort of five year change and they look they had data from Apple, Facebook, Google and Microsoft. And so as of 2019 something like between like 77 to 80% of the employees that those companies are men, and maybe only five to 15% or black Latina x are indigenous like that's it overwhelmingly dudes, and overwhelmingly white people, regardless of gender. Right.
So when you hear that, what do you what do you think, you know, I think that some people, what I hear is the world is not 80% white people. Right. What what I love 100% of technology users so when I'm hearing is that people creating technologies are not having similar lived experiences those who are using it. And that's a huge disconnect. So, you know, these, these, these, these people who are creating technology I'm not gonna say people I'm gonna say who it is this white men who are creating technology are not the main target for abuse harassment stalking, and just straight up, you know, violence and digital space are not the main targets of it. So it's impossible for them to understand and design for it, it's impossible. It's impossible. You all want to know how to you know counteract these things hire sex workers because that is their lived experience they have navigated the safety issues, they have navigated abuse harassment stalking and so this is this is the major problem is that it's the digital space lacks empathy because the people designing for it. They're not there they're designing an echo chamber they're not designing for the actual world that designing technology that they want to see. Right, which is what we, that's what is the point of design and technology but not in the image of white men, that's what that's what technology cannot be.
Absolutely, absolutely. And so, if we're talking about sort of sex tech, specifically, what are some of the other issues that we have to think about sort of with sex tech specifically as we're thinking about sort of this isn't these design issues.
So, sex technology is a vast industry. it's huge, it's the next trillion dollar market that's what that's what we champion at the woman xx technology. And so when you talk about what are the main issues around designing technology, specifically sex technology is there's a lack of women them identifying female presenting people in the room, therefore their experiences are not represented. So, it is very difficult to create InDesign for those people, and in a good way, because they're not represented when they're not there. And so, I think, you know, when we talk about sex technology there's a knee jerk reaction Cindy Gallup talks about this this knee jerk reaction to sex. This, oh well I'm a consumer of it but I can't invest in like this kind of shame and stigma that's deeply attached to anything about sexuality. And I said that sex tech is a vast industry and I mean it's entertainment yes it's VR pornography is augmented reality, it's all the good, the fun you know, entertainment elements of it, you know, but it's also assault reporting. It's also birth control it's also hormones, it's also you know IVF it's also education, it's also business, it's also you know ancillary products like Lou condoms etc that navigate sex positivity in the sex industry. And so we have to acknowledge that when we're talking about design. And so when you tell when I tell you, oh yeah, we're looking at these stats and things. You know, these are these are apple and Facebook, Google and Microsoft who say they're not sex tech companies I think they're the biggest sex tech companies in the world, you telling me 7070 to 80% of those are men who are designing my reality as a woman when I'm navigating tech that's absolutely a problem it's a disconnect. Right. And so, we need more tech equity for films, that's what I see the biggest issue being is that films should own and have the right to design for themselves and what they want to see in the world.
Yeah, absolutely. And I would agree right I could say the same thing about non binary folks, or trans people, you know, trans men trans women trans non trans non binary like it's a whole space out there Ray Where are like the needs, the needs that assists woman and a trans man are going to have in terms of sex tech are going to be very different, like for a lot of reasons, like,
you know, and something that will navigating within women of sex tech is is not being a catch all for everyone who's not a sis man and that's tricky that's hard you know we're we're trying to navigate, how do we truly honor and respect people's reality and not just assume. Oh, it's not sis men it's everything else and that it's just exclusionary and also binary in itself. And so, yeah and that's something we're having to experience right and so I think it's just having a sense of radical empathy by the thoughtfulness and just realizing that, um, there is a lot of history at play here that's happening, there's a lot of history of play that we're moving into the future and these are all new things, but we have to look at our past and the present in this case, I think. Sure.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, so. So if we're thinking about these digital spaces we're thinking about who's who's got equity and who doesn't who has capital and who doesn't. One of the things you also started telling me about which is something I had never thought about before, was the idea of upward mobility, through digital space. Can you can you tell us a little bit about that.
That's one of my favorite topics upward mobility in digital space. When I became a sex worker activist and I started intersecting into the sex tech world. It was a very kind of civilian way for me to explain the dynamics that happened within the sex trade. Because upward mobility is a concept of upward mobility it's an idea that you are moving up in the world in whichever way that is and so I like to break it down into three different categories, financially, emotionally, and socially. So everyone understands financial upward mobility, that you have more money.
You're making more money you got you got more money. And
yeah, and in america that's our M Oh okay that is our motive is to have more money, more, more, more money, right financial upward mobility, but there's some other things that we have upward mobility for as well, especially when we introduce digital space, and this is Social and Emotional so social upward mobility is like the influencer right this person has a lot of social mobility right they have a lot of ways to move up in this social regard and this is a companionship you know connection, just kind of back that way, have you have those resources to move upward, socially, and then we also have emotionally and this is when we started talking about empathy, right, the ability to understand someone else's feelings aren't Can you grow, can you grow emotionally in digital space and also physical space is that allowed for you. Or are you sensitive in your growth to grow emotionally right. And so, I like to talk about that because oftentimes it's always. You may have if you are an activist for example you may have a lot of social upward mobility, but you may not have a lot of financial upward mobility if you're a wall street trader, you may have a shit ton of social. I don't want you may have a shit ton of financial upward mobility, but not much emotional upward mobility. Right. And so these are all things that we trade that we sell that we buy these are all things that we buy into sell and trade into right. So when you talk about difficult concepts like Shadow banning algorithms. All these digital components have absolutely impact how you live your life, we have to talk about social financial and emotional upward mobility, because it impacts them differently. So if you are someone who is, let's say you know queer woman on Instagram and you have been saddled banned. Now you are being oppressed emotional financial crash Why can I not speak. Let me just restart about the whole thing. Okay. So if you're a queer woman navigating digital space of social media, you may be shadow banned when shadow banned is the concept of not really understanding why, and that's a key part of it, your information is suppressed your content is hidden from the masses right so if a porn star says hashtag love, you won't an influencer says hashtag love you'll see the influencer you won't see the porn star, because they have shadow banned and that is a way of censoring information that's been from the beginning of the internet that's not new. Okay, but the concept of shadow banning often comes to a morality judgment from those who are creating the technology and guess who that is, white men, and that is another way to oppose white supremacist views. Now, so let's say you're queer woman who was being shadow banned on Instagram right now all of a sudden your financial upward mobility is being hindered, because your social mobility is being hindered, so you are not able to socially connect the way you normally would, because you're being shadow banned on a social media platform. So that hinders if you can sell t shirts or your webinars or you know whatever thing you need to have financial upward mobility and in directly it absolutely impacts your emotional upward mobility because now you are unable to make these emotional connections with not only your peers and your community but also your creative work or anything else that's happening in that digital space. And so we have to absolutely acknowledge that massive impact that the technology is having on our social lives on our emotional lives and our financial lives and all of that, and how the mobility is actively oppressed to people who are deemed less morally acceptable.
Yeah, no, that makes sense. So then, as we talk about sort of the issues around big tech for a lot of these social media platforms which. And I like I love y'all hope folks, but I know some of you out there thinking, Well why don't they just move to a different network, like we just got to get off all these big networks, I feel like it's not that easy
to stop calling these, these companies these media conglomerates these, these media monopolies social media, let's just be honest, Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, they've all all one in the same but they have transcended what we as normal civilians understand that social media, period. Period. They are now they have far far exceeded the social impact of what a social media platform is supposed to be okay. So for example,
we have to understand.
We have to understand we say something real. I hope you all listen hope people you listen to look. Look at me, look at me We'll close right now, I'm gonna say something to you, that's going to upset you. White men need to step down. Okay. you know people are asking all the time. Well, you know how, when people ask me all the time. How can we help black people how can we champion diversity in tech and how can we create empathy in tech and how can we do all this work that's going to be you know just so futurist so amazing and so inclusive. And the reality is that we need a lot less white men at the table making these decisions. And the reality is is that, that may be your job. Yes, I'm talking to you the person looking at me right now who's going to meet you. It may be you who needs to step down, and not hold that position of power anymore. Maybe there's not enough room at the table, maybe you need to go and make room at the table. Okay. And so, eating a little bit deeper into this and how big tech plays into the white supremacy culture that we have in America is this idea that you, as a white man as a white person because white women are not exempt feel that you are the person who should hold these roles and that you should have this power and that, why shouldn't you and questioning you even your holding of this power is absolutely opposed by services structures in America, and we see it in Facebook we see it and all these, these ways that it's played out that you always say oh there's a lack of diversity there's a lack of diversity and black and brown and indigenous people are being harmed in these digital spaces, what do we do. Well let a black, brown indigenous person design their reality. I don't know if that's a good start, though maybe that's a good start. Maybe you're not the person who should be creating designs for black and brown indigenous people. And so then the second question is, okay. Okay fine, I sat down for my job. What do I do now. Oh well I'm not making as much money as I was making in that role. What do I do now. And I think that's a great question for you to understand and face the insecurities that by pfcs have had as far as financial insecurities housing insecurities health insecurities. I wonder what that feels like, you know, wonder what that feels like when you're not holding a position of power, socially financially, emotionally, etc. And so it's a very controversial statement but I, I, I try not try not to say often because that's a bit ridiculous because I am who I am but I think people just have a very knee jerk reaction to that and so when we get to the q&a I'm sure there'll be someone who asked about. What do I mean by that. And I will say I really mean he stepped down. I really mean that you need to find an exit plan for this position of power that you hold in the technology space, but maybe perhaps you have, you should not have hold, maybe perhaps you should not have held in the first place and that historically you have been
appointed to this role that you shouldn't have had. And that's a tough spot. That's a tough pill to swallow for a lot of people.
Yeah. Yeah. And so if you're wondering why so many folks are arguing for like health care that's not related to employment or UBI or EDD org like just greater social safety net in general. That may be why.
Right, yeah. And we can talk about that in regards to COVID-19 and all these different all these different movements that are happening simply the Black Lives Matter movement, you know, I think. The beauty of this movement and the beauty of COVID-19, if there's any beauty at all and police brutality and people dying from coronavirus is that America is waking up to the mass and justices that are happening to everyday people, and that you, Mr. Tech exact you mister higher up in tech, you're not exempt from it, you're not. You're not exempt from it and so now we're starting to understand these structures that are happening and that make these things possible that make these realities possible and as we spend more and more time in digital space. These people are only getting more powerful. They're only getting more powerful as judge and jury of who is morally acceptable and who is not. And so that's something that we absolutely have to fight and we have to face you know FOSS assess the past and 2018 to stop the stop enabling when it's possible to stand for again. God I see it so often that my brain is like melted into what it actually means but
yeah it was like it was ostensibly stop enabling sex traffickers and you are heard. At the last hope at least a certain number of presenters were talking about foster acesta.
And now and now we have the ernit Act.
And now we have the new Act to an attempt to stop encryption on digital spaces, under the guise of child abuse Protection Act. And so what we're seeing is several things right. We'll see why supremacy being held within digital space and bills like foster system the Earned ID act and attempts to control its abilities on what's happening in digital space. We're using historically sex has been used as an entry point because of its heavy stigma attached to it as an entry point to violate people's privacy and security. And so we're saying when I talk about the intersections of sex work and sex tech. This is what I'm talking about, because sex workers tend to be the escape goes because they are deemed criminalized immoral, not worthy of actual human rights, they are the scapegoats of bills like this and acts like this that actually impact Americans as in an entirety. So, um,
yeah, yeah. That's a lot of a walk, we I hope y'all are well. So can I say this a lot, we're dropping some gems here right now.
Well, so, so when. Is there anything else that you wanted to share some of your thoughts around sort of privacy, security, sort of data ownership because that's that's what a lot of this wills down to,
um, yeah. So definitely, I believe that
the future is not tech conglomerates The future is not the Facebook's and the Instagrams The future is his niche smaller platforms for social media and social interaction that absolutely catered toward the user and their lived experience and how they navigate digital space. I believe that the future is more tech equity for fems. I believe that historically we've been left out of equity for all the emotional labor and companionship and work that we do in digital space. We need more of it you know the coronavirus absolutely validated an industry that was completely taboo before which is companionship and digital space, we see amazing trends happening in Japan and in different spaces of the world, but in America, we absolutely validate okay so me connected to my girlfriend on my family member or whoever over digital space is real. Am I gonna pay for it though. We've been trained and socialized as humans to think that data, data sharing is the payment for navigating these services. So what I would like to see would be more tech equity and privacy and security implemented within these smaller platforms as in your data is not what gives you free access to this, and in return your data being used to pass bills like processes on the back. A big connection being made here right. And I definitely see like I said more equity more equity for women and more money for women and more money for women needs more freedom for women and that's my feminist goal is more money for women so we can make our own choices. And, yeah, so I think that that's that's kind of it, you know. That's how I feel about how everything is intersecting right now in the world.
Yeah, absolutely. So, how do we
all right so so so we as we start to wrap this up as we start to move into QA right, what are what are the kind of big things that you want us to remember.
Oh, big things to remember one practice radical thoughtfulness. Okay, that's my Mo. So, I like to say if you are thinking something is very difficult emotionally. If you are thinking that's hard, thinking about the other person how difficult that must be as well, that we are not solidary people, we are people who wish to connect we're humans. Right. And so, we should actively be thinking about navigating technology to better the human experience and not make it worse. And that is 100% within our rights. We are in the driver's seat of this car we are not a thing from happening to us we do things and so understand that you have that power of how you navigate these spaces to sex workers matter textbook or sex work is work. And please do not invalidate people's experiences in their lives take them as who they are and what they say. Um, and, yeah, fuck, Ernie, you know, Garnet pasta Sesa and we have to be more aware and listen to sex smokers when they told us about this years ago, what's happening and so those are those are my final things. And also, you know, consider joining women at sex technology if you are them identifying persons and preventing person.
Because we are about to change the world, and we're opening up membership in August.
Awesome. So one more reminder if folks want to catch you and your work. Where can we find you.
Um, I am at FX war everywhere, and my cash app is FX brats. That is SXB are at, and my Venmo is escex Brad at sspr at everywhere else, FX noir pronouns she and her, and I would love to hear from you all about anything.
Let's see, my quick shout out I'm with I'm the founder and executive director of the foundation for sex positivity. We absolutely agree sex work is real work we support the rights of sex workers particularly queer and trans sex workers. Those are things we strive to uphold so if you want to find out more about us or make a donation you can see us at EF f i n g dot o rG faa.org. All right, so we are now going to move over to our live component and get ready for, for some questions. Thank you again escex, for coming out to hopes so excited to talk. Yeah, sounds good.
This is empathy equity and sex and tech at the margins, with SF Smar and Dr Kitt Stubbs. We, we'd like to invite those of you attending hope to ask. x and Kitt your questions so please post them to the livestream q&a channel in our matrix chat, and they will be related here, we've, we've already had a lot of great discussion in the matrix channel and we've got a question from the audience already, which is a member of the audience asks at DEF CON 201 we've been speaking out against sista Fausta earn it and we feel that the community is hard to hear about it. Outside of hope hosting talks like yours which thanks to you. What can hackers do to combat it and how do we talk about it to other hackers.
Um, hello everyone, how's it gone we can't really see you so it's kind of awkward but we've just been chatting behind scenes, all time about Twitter and I wisdoms and emails that went missing you all know what we're talking about. So very happy to be here with you all. So, yeah, I will knock it off on FX Noir. She her pronouns. And so the question. Um, you know, how do you talk about it to other hackers my favorite advice to give is the biggest piece that you can make a difference. The best place you can be an activist and champion, the rights that you believe in as far as socially and politically is your dinner table. It's when you're having drinks with friends, it's when you're relaxing it's when you have this very intimate moments with people who could have different views from you, starting from a similar place of understanding and then sharing your views and expanding on that because you know you can get on the stage all you want you can go and tweet out into the entire world, but really it's those conversations you have with those closest to you to understand if you are politically aligned in regards to digital matters. So that's what I would say I would say it's not rocket science. Just Just talk to your friends.
No, I would get here Hello, everyone. Yeah, it's like, oh, we made it we're all here. Um, you know, I would agree right, a lot of it is like, as people start bringing up, you know, hopefully you're talking about sort of ways you're getting active and it's like well yeah Have y'all heard about earn it. Like do you like. Have you heard about this like you like talk like you want people to be able to say talk about sex on the internet, really even just talking about sex on the internet, let alone any other kinds of sex work like sesta FOSS has already had a huge chilling impact in terms of speech about sex and sexuality. Right. And so yeah, yeah it's just like letting people know and, you know, the usual kind of you can like calling your representatives, or texting or emailing to let them know that you you are on to them, you, you, you understand that there are huge negative consequences. But yeah, no, thank you, great question and we appreciate your support.
We do read as a part one last quick comment one thing I heard from an amazing organizer, with red Canary song is that it's okay to have a self interest in the things that you are an activist for, it's okay to be personally invested in the outcome of a result in politics so that's that's that.
I guess another member of the audience asks was disassociate was dissociation mentioned as a lack of association or was it actively not wanting to associate.
I'll go ahead and respond to that I think both are there in digital space what I was referring to in this association was this idea of disconnection, so it is the act of meaning of not wanting to connect them active meaning of not being able to connect. So when we speak about emotional upward mobility this association is a huge hindrance to that and a harm reduction tactic is to practice empathy to be able to understand how you can connect with someone and how you can understand what message they're attempting to share with
someone asks if you don't have the skills to talk to someone from their side. Is it better to not have the conversation with someone who believes in unfounded conspiracy Can you do harm trying.
I can't answer this, but I only got kids
on it. So that's the worst like conspiracy. So first of all, I mean, navigating a conspiracy is just that it's a conspiracy so it's not something that is, it's it's very much an emotionally charged conversation so that is a different navigation but as far as speaking to someone who could have opposing views, just let you know. I'm from Missouri I'm from Kansas City, Missouri, that is Trump land and I am a sex worker activist so please believe I approach conversations consistently with people who have counter views, I would say, this is a moment clearly you're asking this question, I feel that you're asking this question from a place that maybe you've had a conversation that didn't really go so well and that maybe left you a little bit more upset in the end that it did as productive. And I would say this is a great time for self learning on how to de escalate and how to have really communicative conversations. Because when we are approaching when we talk about politics politics is politics and it's not business and it's not personal. But it is everything about politics is personal I'm a black woman I exist, and my existence is political and so when you start talking to someone and it seems as if your life is a debate that can get very very emotional. So the ways that I give tips is just approach it from a very common place you know when i in the top you just watch I talked about the upward mobility spectrum financially socially, emotionally and that tends to be how I break that ice. Before I start talking about.
Before I start talking about,
you know, sex worker rights sex workers matter I go, Oh well, do you think that people should be allowed to talk to other people in digital space you know I just kind of approach it from a common place and you'd be very surprised how far that goes and and don't be afraid, and don't be afraid to have that conversation. And guess what, guess what, the revolution is uncomfortable. It's not comfortable, if it was comfortable, it would have already happened. So it's okay to take that moment and go, Oh, I'm feeling a little bit right now, and give yourself that grace and space to continue that conversation because just like I said, activism starts at the dinner table this is part of that process, being a little bit uncomfortable to get to a place of common understanding.
That's fabulous i the only tiny tiny thing I would add is like this I got from, I get from Captain awkward I'm a huge fan, I've always talking about Captain awkward her blog is wonderful. Such good advice for geeks and nerds. And one thing she says is to when you're having you're trying to have this cuff conversation, just the fact that you are getting your perspective out there, even if the person you're directly talking to is not going to change their mind, you're letting perhaps the rest of the table know where you stand. Right, I might not have any luck persuading this aunt or uncle but my niece or nephew. Like, they may be listening, they may be more receptive. So, yeah, even if it's a tough conversation. And it's gonna be tough conversation, getting that out there, even for other people at the table can also can also help a lot.
Right, so remember if the audience asks the banking world is the most backwards red tape Puritan out there, is there any way hackers can improve this sector with legit cryptocurrency help or do we need to find another avenue.
Um, yeah so I, um, fuck cryptocurrency. For starters, Everyone's always. Oh my god, sex workers need crypto currency, no we don't we just need actual respect and dignity when it comes to financial technology that every other civilian has may not be getting the work that they navigate. So I think that your question comes from a place of good intention and just keep that energy up because I think there is no good answer right now and you're absolutely right, the banking system is fucked you know I was talking to excuse my language but it's late and we're adults. And we're having the conversation so I'm my girlfriend Giselle Murray you know I was just on the phone with her right before this we had an organizing call about a march we're doing this weekend, and she's raised over $40,000 for black speaker relief funds and go fund me is asking so she's raising it for to help basically rebuild a building that she was gifted and it's in the cost a lot of money to do that and so GoFundMe is asking for the legal documentation of her ownership of this building for her to release the funds, like it's her money, it's part of money that she has fundraise and because she's a sex worker, and because sex is attached to this financial technology element of GoFundMe right that they are not questioned, so I think it's a great question but it's kind of a learned helplessness, we don't have the answer. Yeah.
Remember, if the audience asks,
my sex worker friends are being hammered with restrictions and rip off policy changes on Instagram only fans and Pornhub. Can you comment on those, and was for example, open source copyleft sexy stripper music help with the music copyright sounds
good I'll go ahead and take this one to you. Ah, no. That's why I brought you here, I this is why we brought you here. So I absolutely love this question. And so, I, as far as music copyrights that's something that kind of universally is applied to any content creator, and that's kind of been documented over the Instagram lives and tic tocs and all that kind of stuff right the copyright of content. Now something I'd like to pay attention to is that people in music can get their copyright protected by sex workers who do porn cannot. Let's talk about that for a second but let's not, we only have five minutes left. The question is, what are we doing about the restrictions and rip off policies of Instagram only fans. These are three completely different models of business but just to put it quickly whiteness when I said in my talk white men need to step down. The reality is that they are creating policies that best benefit them their lives, their experience and their financial upward mobility. When you have more women in charge when you have women actually creating platforms for women, then you get you don't get you. I'm not saying every woman's perfect to me like everyone deserves to be critique but I would be very interested to see I bet you would get a lot less corrupt policymaking you know sex workers historic would have built the internet in regards to a perfect example is Patreon, and then kicked off right as they get to a place of being, you know, having an idea or being big enough to make a big profit. So I think that it's really it's a conversation around the stigma and shame attached to sexuality period in these spaces. And why are sex workers and those embracing their sexuality and why are five queers shadow ban and actively kicked off of things like Instagram. Yeah, that's kind of my quick my quick answer because I can't get it too deep in the five minutes, but give women money and give women in tech money to design what they need.
While we're while we're coming to the end of this we got a few minutes left. But, what, what can you tell us about the projects and things that you've got going on right now. Let's got you first escex
amazing so i doing so many things but to keep it really succinct. I am the CO president of the women of sex technology, and we are in the process of getting our first seed round to facilitate salaries for our main leads, as well as because women deserve living wages so we are fundraising for salaries, and we are fundraising to do study and research around sex technology so that is the women of sex technology. And I'm also working on a blast sex worker liberation March that's happening this Saturday in Time Square. So if you are interested in volunteering or just sigma boosting online sex worker liberation, calm and at Black sex SW march on Twitter. So that's happening this Sunday Saturday at Time Square and like we're very excited I went to scout out the location today. That's taking a lot of my time as far as organizing, and as always, I am accepting money because guess what is coronavirus and I don't get paid for any of this, other than just be happy and be with you all. So, to me, love that a lot, and I'm sex noir the thought leader of sex technology I have a podcast called thought leader pod and that is th ot where I navigate the conversation of sex work sex tech health love dating privacy, security, and all those good fun things. That's me. That's it.
Excellent and about you Kip.
All right, so I am I, yeah, this is like this is now my, my fourth hope and I'm like since my first hope I started this nonprofit and I am running the effing foundation for sex positivity we are at EFI n g dot o RG. Our mission is to reduce sexual shame normalize conversations about sex. We've awarded over $180,000 in grants to artists and educators across the US, doing all kinds of awesome stuff. So, if you want to see some of the cool projects FF IMG o RG or you can find this thing found on Twitter. But yeah like we're trying to do our part to help uplift awesome folks like sx noir who again I want to thank so much for coming out and
do this whole thing. It was like, ah, we're doing the whole conference this year and we have two talks, we have a talk coming up
again on Thursday at ask a sec. Yes,
that will actually be like talking. Yes, there are a few really great and it has just really been a serious champion of Black Lives Matter, as in regards to the technology movement and I'm just very very blessed not of Bukit sorry do not mean to interrupt.
like I say, that's what we try to do so yeah thanks everybody so much for coming out. Thanks for having holding this kind of difficult conversation with us and listening. We really appreciate it. To the chat I'm a non binary person, I don't identify as a lady. But Thanks, I appreciate the thought. Um, but yes, we folks are very happy that you folks came out and said this conversation and yeah, we will see y'all on Thursday night. Thursday.
Excellent. SMR and Dr kit Stubbs thank you both very much indeed for, for joining us today.
Thank you. Thanks to all the volunteers at home for making this possible. Thank you.