#185 Beating Diabetes With Cereal with Krishna Kaliannan.mp3
1:47AM Aug 1, 2019
Welcome to the chief life Podcast,
where we deliver guests and knowledge from around the world right to your ears,
focusing on nutrition, exercise, health and wellness. So sit back,
relax, and enjoy the show.
Guys, welcome back to the chief life Podcast. I am Matthias Turner, and today I'm super pumped. I've got Krishna Kalyani with me Kellyanne and sorry with me wrong Catalina crunch, dude, welcome.
Thank you, thank you so much for having me. I'm really
excited for this. I mean, like, you've got quite the backstory that kind of led into you figuring out, you had your problem, you figured it out how you could kind of move forward with it, and then have built it into a business to kind of keep growing it. And I think that's really exciting. Because you've, you've come from a pain point, you figured out how to make it a joyful point almost, and then created a life and a business off of it and probably helped a holiday other lives because of it. Because you figured out a solution. So I mean, Catalina crunches, you guys do cereal. So how does one come to creating cereal?
Good question, man. Great question. And I appreciate it. Yeah, I mean, the number one reason I do it is to help other people. And so you know, that's the most gratifying part. So I appreciate you calling that out. But yeah, no, I mean, it was a it was a long, long process. And to be honest, it is not easy to launch a new product. And I think, I think a good part of it was an appetite to be honest about exactly how hard it was going to be. In if I realised up front, how hard it was going to be and how long it was going to take. I might have reevaluated you know whether or not I actually did it. But you know, nevertheless, I kind of, I guess persevered, if you will, you know, I'm kind of like one of those people that once I start something, I'm not going to give up on it, you know, for better for worse. And so I was gonna just just, you know, one part after another, but I mean, you know, I'm trying to think so it was about it was about two years ago, and I was just fed up basically eating hard boiled eggs for breakfast, because that's what I eating for a long, long time. And you know, I'm on a kind of keto eating regimen. And so there's not a lot of options for breakfast. And, you know, my girlfriend beginning, like, you know, we're in New York City, so she's eating ice balls for breakfast, or you know, like fruit smoothies or like bagel sandwiches, and, you know, all this stuff that tastes amazing, but it just has a lot of, you know, either carbs or sugar. Yeah. And so I try it, you know, I stay away from that stuff. And so I, you know, I just, I mean, the way it started as I started baking it in my kitchen. And it was, you know, just for me, you know, I was I was I had gone through the grocery store.
I'd see how, Oh, we got your your doctor.
Yeah, join it, you can do it.
Get his take as well.
Yeah, so, uh, you know, I'm sure he can tell the struggles of difficulty with breakfast. You know, I don't know if
you want to be able to.
But yeah, so I mean, I was I just started baking it out of my, out of my kit. And in what it happened was, I had, you know, I've gone down the cereal aisle one day, I kind of got this wave of histology over me. And I thought, you know, I wonder if I can make a basically like a nutritious version of cocoa puffs. And I had been doing a little bit of low carb baking before that. Yeah. And I kind of realised, you know, once you get into baking a little bit, it's just like you're making a dough, you know, then you're taking your dough, you're baking your dough, and then out comes the product and you eat it right? Yeah, most of the times you're making you know, you're baking something like I was baking crackers. So like, I'm adding salt obviously, and it's getting it a salty flavour, like spicy flavour. And I just realised, you know, guys take out the salts, and I add, you know, cow at that time was what I was thinking about make chocolaty, you know, maybe something that, you know, that takes that taste like, like cocoa puffs. And so that's how it got started. And so I was baking it out of my own kitchen for about three, four months. And then what happened was a friend of mine, actually, he wanted to try the product because he had gone on keto, he had gotten unhappy with just eating eggs every day for breakfast, as well. And so he tried it, I actually gave him like a ziplock baggie, with this cereal, which I had made out of my kitchen, you know, yeah. And he put it in like some almond milk, I think, like I was doing, and he started eating it for breakfast. And it wasn't, it wasn't that great at the time. But honestly, like, when you've just eaten eggs every day for like, years and years. And you know, it's like, anything is different. That's good, you know. And so he started eating it, he actually the funny thing was, was he actually been mowed me for it. And then I got some of like, his friends also eating it. And then it became because I was like baking it on the weekend. So you know, there became a point where I was like, at first I was just for me, and then I was like for me and a little for him. And then it sort of be a thing where I was like, All right, I'm now actually doing like, a whole second batch of cereal just for these other people. You know, like, I got to think about what I'm doing here. And that's when I decided to turn it into a business. Cool. And, yeah, and then I mean, and then after that to the rest of your question. You know, I think the thing that I didn't realise was that when you go from doing something into your kitchen, to doing it for consumers, you know, all over the country, it's a totally different beast right now, first of all, you got to learn, like, you can only make so much out of your kitchen. Yeah. And so, you know, when you're trying to make, you know, 1000 times that much, you know, you just can't do it in the kitchen anymore, right? And so you need to get more space, you know, you need to get more ovens, you know, you need to get more baking equipment, you need to get chefs to help you right, you know, and so then there becomes this hiring component. And then you start thinking, well, there's also like, regulations as well, right? Like, you can't just bake it out of your kitchen and then sell it to people around across the country. And, and so there's that. And this just kind of goes on and on. But so there's a whole there's a whole process that took me about a year actually, which was saying, you know, how are we going to do this on in, you know, on a larger scale in so that we can actually do it for other people? Yeah. And so that was a big learning process.
And I think there's a lot of legalities that probably people don't understand as well, when it comes to high production, right. And the big space kitchens like the rules and regulations that you need to follow when you're in those as well can be like almost overwhelming to start with with the things you have to cover. I actually had a client who used to make cakes, she was like she was going into the business and making cakes she was in the in the corporate world. And she was getting so busy that she ended up hiring a space to see if she could do the commercial kitchen. And the amount of like loop she had to jump through just to get that rolling as a part time thing was just crazy.
Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. Now there's a lot. I remember when I first was working out of a commercial kitchen. Yeah, they like, you know, they want it's almost like, you know, it's like, like you you're signing a lease with the kitchen, you know, you're paying a deposit, you're agreeing to work out of there for a certain number of months. And, you know, you're agreeing not to bring certain, you know, foods with certain allergies into the facility, right? Like you're agreeing to clean things properly, like, store things properly. You know, yeah, it's a whole, it's a whole thing. It's, it's difficult, because there are some people who are very clean, obviously, but then there are other people who are not clean. But when you're working in a shared kitchen, like you can't have someone who's just like, leaving their stuff all around, right? Like, you can't just you don't want to walk into the kitchen. And then like, see that, like there's, you know, burnt bread in the oven or like, you know, it's like, poop on the floor. Like, you know, you don't want any of that. Right. So it's a very, it's very, you know, difficult process, and they screen people and things like that. Yep.
And I mean, a product like yours, where you're gluten free grain free. cross contamination is obviously a big thing. And I think something that people don't really recognise is how much cross contamination there is within the world. Even if the product says gluten free, it only has to pass a test that's 99.7%. gluten free, I believe. So there's still a chance that you are getting a little bit of cross contamination. Is that the same for the States?
I'm not sure about not what 99.7% comes out, too. But the the law in the states is less than 20 parts per million gluten. Okay. And I think their content, I think they're thinking about lowering it actually to 10 parts per million gluten. But yeah, you're absolutely right. There is the possibility. Yeah, if you're if you're working out of an oven, and the person who was previously in that Evan was baking, you know, bread using wheat flour, and then you come into that oven, and you start baking out of that oven. There's a possibility that some of the week that you know, that stayed on the baking pan or whatnot, if not cleaned properly, or even if cleaned properly, could you know could cross contaminate? Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, before you guys had your own, like warehouse style bakery, say sections, were you having to deal with that? Like, was there ever a chance where you had cross contamination that you kind of just said, well, hell, that's like a whole section I just need to throw away now.
No, we never had to throw product away. And basically, what we did is, so we're in our own bakery right now. Because we're just like, selling like crazy, to be honest. So we didn't know, you know, long time ago, we had to get rid of the shared bakery solution. So we have a massive bakery, and a whole bunch of folks working out of the bakery. And that. And so now there's no you know, because we're only making the cereal, we don't have to worry about cross contamination. We don't bring in any other sorts of you know, we're not bringing wheat flour in because we're not making any other products or anything like that. Yeah. Previously, when we were in the shared kitchen, we did not address the product is gluten free or grain free. Okay. And if someone emailed us, and they asked us, Hey, does your product contain gluten? My response would always be well, if you're if you have celiac, then I don't recommend you know, like, then don't buy it just as a chance. You're asking me? Yep. But now that we're in our own facility, we can 100% guarantee that we are you know, gluten free, grain free and perfect for folks who have any of those sorts of allergies
did that's cool. And I mean, something that we haven't touched on yet is the actual pain point that that kind of changed your lifestyle around, which is type one diabetes? Can you kind of take us through like your whole whole life of living with diabetes? Like how did that come about? And have you kind of live with it? And what are the changes you've had to make? and sacrifices potentially, that people would say sacrifices, but realistically, some people would also see as a gift, it's like, hey, well, I've got this thing. Now I get to actually really look after myself. So what's it been like living with type one? diabetes?
Yeah, great question. I mean, so I was diagnosed about 10 years ago, I was actually a senior in high school at the time going into my freshman year of college. Yeah. And it was right, when I made that transition, actually, that I was diagnosed them. So it was very difficult at first, you know, emotionally because parents are far away. And you know, your whole support system, right? You're going through college, like you don't know, anyone, you're making new friends. Right. And so it was difficult, obviously, and very angering at times to have this disease put on me while I was in the in, like a life transition process in general, right, like, I was, like, thrown into the deep end. And then on top of it, you know, given a rock called diabetes to swim with, you know, what I'm saying? So, that was frustrating, you know, I mean, like, I remember, you know, just being angry, feeling that life's not fair, you know, and I remember thinking, you know, why is it you know, we have all these, like, freshman in college, why is it that I gotta deal with this disease? You know, what I'm saying? Yeah, I was not happy about that, obviously. I was, you know, and I think that extended on to, you know, my, to a certain extent, you know, also thinking like, my parents are so far away, I can't get as much help from them. And so that was definitely challenging. And, you know, I think you, you gradually get used to it, though, obviously, because it can't go on that way forever. Yeah. And you kind of learn ways to make your life easier. And that's really what you know, I think, like keto and low carb did for me was I realised, if I don't eat a lot of carbs, and I don't gotta take a lot of insulin, it makes it much easier to control my blood sugars and also manage my budget, too, because insulin is expensive, right?
Can I stop you real quick? When you first found out you had diabetes? Did they take you through that dope? Did they explain like, Hey, you should not eat extra carbs and inject extra insulin? Or was it like, just eat whatever you want? and inject the extra insulin?
Yeah, so it was interesting. They did not press like, you know, for me, I feel personally like, if you're a type one diabetic, and you're not, you know, and you've never tried low carb, I think it's like a godsend because it just makes managing diabetes so much easier. Yeah. So. But it's funny, because yeah, when I was when I was doing this, the nutritionist, they have these special diabetes educators that are like nutritionists certified in diabetes management, and they teach you to count the number of carbs, you're going to eat and then take insulin based on the number of carbs that you're going to eat. And so they do, they do warn you avoid sugary soft drinks and avoid like candy and things like that, because they are going to spike your blood sugar. And which is to say that, you know, you can take, you know, X amount of insulin for the amount of candy you're going to eat. But the problem is, is the insulin will work over like a two hour period of time. Whereas like, the candy will come into your system, and I'll spike your blood sugar over like the course, like 10 minutes. And so those two don't match, right, so your blood sugar will go up, and then it'll kind of come back down. And so they teach you to avoid things like that. They also teach you about the glycemic index, or glycemic load is a way for understanding if things are likely to spike your blood sugar, not yet. But to be honest, they never told me to explicitly think about reducing the number of carbs in my diet, you know, like they might they like, I think some of the things that they said were things like eat, you know, like whole grain wheat flour, old grain wheat bread, instead of white bread, for example, you know, which is which is is better? I mean, you know, because whole grain bread tends to have a little bit more Fiverr know, a little bit more protein than then like white bread does. And but it's obviously I think, relatively marginal. Food. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, you know, they still like, you know, a tonne of carbs, obviously, in any number of the whole grain breads that are on the market. And so, yeah, no, it's it's, it's, I think they should they should do a better job of talking to folks about that. Yeah,
definitely. I think like, the reason I asked that is because I know plenty of diabetics who literally got told, hey, don't worry about adjusting what you eat just will make sure you're getting enough insulin every day to make sure that your your sugar levels are fine. Like it No worries. The issue that we come across with some diabetics is that they're afraid to reduce the carbohydrates because of the energy shift. And it seems very similar to what a low would seem like. And you know, it's like that transition period of potentially going from a high carbohydrate diet to transitioning into a lower carbohydrate diet, where you're switching from being a carb Bona to being more of a fat burner. That can seem to I guess, it seems very similar to what a low might feel like. So therefore, it can almost scare them to even try it. It's like, Oh, no, I tried. I tried that for a day. And it wasn't very successful for me as a person, like my energy levels were way too low, and I can't do that. Do you remember what your transition period was? Like?
Um, yeah. So it says that's a good question. I think it's funny because when I was diagnosed, actually am I would I talked to some diabetics I knew or didn't know, but then actually came to find out were diabetic, once I told them that I was diabetic. And one of the I found was a lot of diabetics just eat the same thing every day. Yeah. Because it makes it super easy, then you don't have to do any calculations. You don't do any worrying, or any guessing. Right. You're just like, Okay, I'm eating the same ham sandwich that I ate yesterday, today, the day before that ate the day before. And I know, I need to take, you know, four units of insulin for this. And it's been like, it makes things simple, right? And if you're changing it up a lot, it's obviously difficult. And so I think especially, I could definitely see you're talking to someone who's been eating the same hand sandwich every day for lunch for the last 10 years, there's going to be very hesitant to change it up, because that's the reason why they're doing that. Right. It makes it makes life simple. And and Yeah, I know, for me, the transition was not seamless, I would say by any means. And, you know, it definitely took a bit of experimentation. And you know, because basically, for me, and I think for most type one diabetics, you take two types of insulin, right, you take this short acting insulin, which is what you take, right when you eat, yeah, and then that works over a two hour period of time. And then you take this long acting insulin or like bolus, which will act over a 24 hour period of time. And so what happens is, you've cut down a lot on the number of carbs you're eating, and then you also say, do a little bit of exercise, you are going to be in a place where you're probably going to experience lows, because you're probably taking some long acting insulin to counter some of the carbs that you're eating throughout the day, even though you don't realise you're doing that. Yeah. So I think it's likely to happen. So if you're gonna, if you're going to do that transition, I think it's smart to to reduce the amount of long acting insulin that you're taking as you kind of change you know, up your eating regimen. But now that what I mean, for me, it was not like super seamless, there was definitely a periods where, you know, I used to eat like, I remember, I used to eat like Subway sandwiches for lunch, for example. And you know, like, the subway sandwich bread has like a tonne of carbs in it, right. And as long as they're, you know, it's like a whole foot, right? It's a lot of bread. And then I went to getting rid of that. And I started eating like the sandwich, but I would buy the meats from the store, and then eat it without the bread, you know, and sometimes I'd like rapid and let us or whatnot. Yeah. So you go from like a tonne of carbs to no carbs whatsoever. And the first day that I did that, I was like, feeling just low the whole day, you know. And like, I remember taking no insulin, no short acting insulin, but still leaving that meal low. And then then what I realised over time was I had to drop the amount of long X Games when I was taking. So
that's what that was very insightful. I think that could help a few people out. Definitely. I hope so. Yeah, that's cool. And so, I mean, for you guys, like, obviously, fast tracked down down to where we are now, like, you've got a company that's now running, you're providing a series of people all over all over the world, I would believe like, how, where do you actually send to? Is it literally international everywhere?
No, we just send to in America right now. Good question. No, that's like, it's unfortunately, like, soon expensive and or takes a long time to ship it, you know, like, to Europe, for example, or Australia or anything like that. So we are just in America right now, I think like, at some point, we would start shipping the product to other countries, you know, we'd have to find another company to work with like that we could ship the product to in like containers, for example. Yeah. And then they would actually ship it to the final consumers and South Africa. Whereas right now we just, we just send it out to folks in America.
Okay, cool. But I think there's, there's a lot of insights that I think we can really kind of play on here. Because typically, in the Western world were marketed that you need to be eating something like cereal for breakfast, and seems almost weird to be eating something such as meat or something such as eggs every single day, like a cook breakfast, people will happily go out to a cafe and have a coach Becky. But yeah, when it comes to eating at home every day, so many people still have that mindset of Well, I have to be eating cereal, it's just that quick, easy options, cereal or toast. And that's kind of like the Western world breakfast. What are some of the potential I guess hidden secrets or hidden things that we need to look out for when it comes to eating just a regular cereal? Like what are the tricks or the the things we need to be cautious of? When it does come to that style of food?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Am I right? I mean, ever since era was invented in like the late 1850s. And they have been, they have been hammering them as a gentleman over and over and over again. And yeah, I mean, I think a couple of things. You know, obviously, I think for whatever reason, folks can be really hesitant to look at the label on the back of the box to actually see what's in the cereal, you know, yeah. And I think that's something that, you know, it's just, like, so easy to just like, I don't want to really look at that, you know, just not gonna look at it.
I won't worry.
Yeah, just don't worry about it, you know. And so what, that's exactly where you get caught is when the company creates a sort of packaging that makes it seem like you're getting a very good and nutritious meal. And as long as you don't look at the nutrition facts, right, yeah. And then you look at the inflation facts, you're like, oh, man, this is a lot different than I thought it was. So I mean, I think you can solve most of your problems that way. You know, one of the things that, that like cereal companies will do, you know, for example, is that they'll make their serving sizes small in order to reduce the amount of the perceived amount of sugar in the product. Yeah. And so you know, they'll, they'll, like, choose the serving size so that they get, like nine grammes of sugar in the product. And so it doesn't seem like a terribly large amount, but then in reality, like because it's not filling it all, you'll end up eating like, you know, five times that, you know, literally right, yeah, so I think that's a big one. You know, I think another one is, I this is an interesting one is I actually talked to a friend who was eating Raisin Bran for breakfast. And he felt he thought, you know, Raisin Bran is like an adult marketed cereal. It's not like a kid cereal, right? It's not like a Cocoa Puffs or whatnot.
Yeah, we just right over there. Uh, no, we don't that's a strategy and branding of Raisin Bran is just
Yes, right. Okay.
Yeah, so so we call it we have Raisin Bran over here. And, and he'd actually thought that he wasn't really eating that much sugar, because not every bite has a reason. Right. And I think in our Raisin Bran, the reason is actually coated in sugar too. So it's like, even more perfect. But at any rate, if you don't put us like a raisin on your spoon, you're just eating like some wheat flakes. Right? Yeah. But if you actually look at the back, then he was then looked at the back and was surprised to see that, you know, Raisin Bran has almost as much sugar as like a Cocoa Puffs or one of those other cereals does. You just don't perceive it that way. Right. So that's like, you know, that's another one. I mean, there's some other tricks that companies are using, like, I found this to be very disingenuous is like Cocoa Puffs, for example. They put up front like in big letters now it says like, no high fructose corn syrup, you know? And so they have like three things which are going to make you think that it's like that it's okay for you. One of them being no high fructose corn syrup. Yeah. But if you look gradients on the back, they have both fructose and corn syrup as separate ingredients. So they still, you know, they just took them, they just, they just took what was high fructose corn syrup in and put it into, you know what I'm saying?
Not long, but it's just
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you gotta, you gotta watch out for that. I watch out for that all the time. Yep.
Yeah, I mean, something that we have here in Australia, I don't know if you guys have it in the states is like a health tick. So it's like a writing from the government to say this food is good. We've also got like, there's a, there's a national hot foundation that will put their stamp of approval on a few things. The issue being is that what they tended to do is go for low fat items, which tend to mean that they're high sugar or higher in sugar. So yeah, I mean, they're to have approval on all these styles of foods, and saying, Hey, this is a good quality food for you, we give it the health take people going, then probably eat too much of it. They like what's healthy for me. So I'll eat plentiful amounts of it. And then they fall into that trap. The spiral that kind of sends you down, it's already spiking your energy too high, you get an overdose of insulin, you get a drop in your mood, a drop in your energy, and then you go craving something else for high sugar again, that's just as that perpetual cycle for the day. Yeah, yeah. Is that something you guys have in the states that takes of approval?
We do not have text of approval. No. But we have the same sort of issue, which is, you know, you're absolutely right. It's like for many, many years, I think like between the 60s in the 90s, fat was marketed as, like, makes you fat. And sugar was marketed is like, not actually I was looking back at past previous ads. Yeah. And they used to market sugar as like a great source of energy, basically. So it was like a good thing. And yeah, saying, and even like, like sucrose and fructose were especially marketed heavily is like, they were like, this is like, energy that's been refined. And it's like, it's like pure energy, you know, I'm saying, and so it had a very positive connotation. And so people were eating these low fat things, thinking that they were going to get something is good, you know, just low in fat. But obviously, if you take the fat out, you got to put something else in it, right? I mean, or else what you know, like, what is it just going to be like, air, you know, like, you got to put something there. And so they're replacing it oftentimes with sugar. And so we have a similar issue, we don't have the the checkmark, but we have a similar issue where the government, the FDA, many of the rules and regulations, kind of what's baked into it, or has been baked into it for a long time is the idea that, yeah, like low fat things are, you know, good for you. Versus regular fat things. And, and so that has, you know, been pushed for a long time. And that, you know, can be constraining for companies as far as like, you know, there are instances where the packaging is, you know, very regulated. And so, companies, you know, have restrictions that they have to follow in like, there are certain things like if your, if your product has a certain amount of saturated fat, for example, that kind of disqualifies you from putting certain statements on the front end of your packaging, which might have wise you know, make your your product seen healthy, if that makes sense. Yeah. And, and so they do, you know, so that, so there's no like, necessarily government Samsung approval, but they do, for example, like, if you want to put a picture of like a heart on your packaging, and say that it's heart healthy, like it has to, it has to meet certain requirements in order.
Okay, cool. I think a lot of the confusion came from back in the day, when they were doing this studies, they used to put sugar and fat together with most of the studies they did, they never did them just by themselves. And that's where a lot of the issues came where they said, Well, every time we have sugar, by itself is not necessarily a bad thing. But when we put sugar and fat together, that's when we see it as a really bad connexion. And realistically, you can eat it, that's fine. Like that's a that's a really healthy and carbohydrates and not a bad thing. You just need to figure out what the balance is when it comes to it. And unfortunately, because there was that Dr. Fats make you fat for so long, it really did push on that carbohydrate intake. And I would say that there's definitely in the world is definitely carb burners, there's definitely fat burning is and you can definitely transition yourself to be one or the other, you can train your body to be able to adapt to the foods that is eating to some extent, because obviously, there's foods that are causing inflammation within the body. And I would say that those foods are the foods that most people need to be keeping away from. And that's where something where your cereal, the product that you guys have created is a really good product because it is a food that is really good and nourishing and people but it's also low in inflammation, you're not gonna eat that food and come out feeling bloated or come out feeling crappy from it. Was that obviously something that you were trying to think of when you were creating the product? Or was it just like, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm going to keep to the keto realm. And it just so happened that it turned out to be nice and healthy anyway.
Now I was I was thinking about that. Because the reason is, is I actually senior year of high school, which was an awful year for me, from a medical perspective. Yeah, I actually tore my ACL, PCL, and MC Oh, yeah. In an Indian in an accident, and I was actually it was the stupidest thing. I came back home from dinner with my parents. Yeah. And we were doing construction at the time in the in the garage. And we had a cat at the time, and the cat wouldn't come into the garage. And that usually means that there's like another animal in the garage so the cat won't come in. And so we thought there might have been like a raccoon or something hiding behind this, like whole bunch of drywall we had stacked up. Yeah. And I didn't realise how heavy the drywall was. So I kind of tried to like, edge it backwards. And I just ended up it just all fell on top of me. And so I like I like twisted over fell over and tore you know, completely agree. Yeah.
That's it, that's a hard thing to do is to all three in one hit. Yeah, you must have.
Yeah, it was not smart. And so after, you know, as a result of that, you know, when you tear those ligaments, you gotta get cadavers put. And then you go on this physical therapy programme, where you start to, you know, get your motion range of motion back, right. And now I have like, kind of a situation where it's, I have almost all my range range of motion. But it is like, very much prone to arthritis as a result of all the kind of tissue dead tissue which is built up in there. Yeah. And so what's happened for me is that like, inflammation, causing foods and or foods that I'm allergic to, I actually feel it in my knee first. Right? And, and so and because it's like, it's been injured before I feel it, like more acutely. And then I think I otherwise would, you know, like, because, because I'm, you know, young and in good health, thankfully, you know, I have the luxury, I would have had the luxury, I think of more or less eating kind of whatever it is that I wanted to without, like, getting joint pain, for example, right? Yeah, you know, but now, like, I will get joint pain in my knee, if I like, during the for example. And and so I stay away from beer. And, you know, that's the kind of thing and red wine does the same thing for me. And, and so, that was another It was another thing that I was thinking about, you know, it's like added sugars and that sort of thing as well can cause this sort of pain for me and my knee. So it was it was a it's always a part of like, what I'm looking to eat and looking to avoid and whatnot.
I think that's, that's really important. And something that people don't really correlate that often is your body is incredibly smart. And it'll always give you those signs and symptoms, and things such as joint pain things such as bloating, things such as like diarrhoea or constipation, like they're all signs from your body even down to like skinny. She's like, if you're, if you got a high amount of pimples, it's due to 10. That tends to be due to what you're eating, like the foods you're putting in. There's something that's not agreeing well with you is really, really crazy to see like how how incredibly smart the body is with giving you signs, just whether you choose to listen to them or not, is the big thing.
Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. It's funny, my dad tell me the storey when he was in his early 30s. And he's a veterinarian, and he would go out on Sundays, Sunday nights and play tennis with a buddy. And they would go out they played tennis, and then they would like have pizza and beer. Yeah. And Monday morning, he would always come into work kind of like sniffling. But he never really put two and two together about that. Until one day, his receptionist was like, hey, Dr. Kelly, every time you come into the office on Monday morning, you're sniffling like what are you doing on Sunday? And he's like, what am I doing on Sunday, and then he put it together. And he realised while eating that pizza and drinking that beer was giving him those symptoms right now. So you're right. It's like not necessarily easy. You know, it's easy to overlook. In other words right now, and you got to be looking for it. I think sometimes, like kind of a tune to what your body's trying to tell you. Is Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a great point.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, the other thing is that is like, this is from reverse look at where I'm pretty gluten and dairy intolerant yet my parents will still think hey, No, it's all right. I can get away with this stuff. I'm like, Well, no, you're on your genetics. Like I come from you guys as a fair chance. When you eliminate this stuff and reintroduce it that you're going to have the exact same side effects that I'm having us need to find that new normal and it's interesting, trying to get their head around it as well. Like obviously, your parents never listened to the kids that much and mine do. They do they do take everything on board. I guess just like trying to try No really, I guess knuckle it in and now at home that it's it's a forever thing. It's not just that when you want to thing, as well as that that dip and like that, that bread and dip just looks really nice. I might just try it today. Yeah, and then they get the side effects, but it doesn't worry them as much like it's not that thing that kind of sits home. And for me like even though even though I I guess for me, I'm always about performance. I'm always trying to think like how can I perform better I know if I eat or drink something like that is the going to affect my gut or my brain for the next week. And that's something that I just I'm not on for I might not that's like a non negotiable for me. But for someone like themselves, they they're happy to potentially have that that little bit of discomfort for the week, even if it does throw them out. And I might not like no deal. Interesting, I think realistically, when it comes to when it comes to nutrition, it really does come down to mindset, like a lot of a lot of the side of it is people will either get something like type one diabetes and say, pull me Why have I ever? Like why have I been dealt this hard card? Or people look at it and see the silver lining, like, okay, cool, well, I'm going to run with this, I'm going to roll with it, I'm going to make sure that I'm thriving as an individual, I know that the things that I do, will will take me to a low point, whereas these things I do can really kind of lift me up. And so it's really realistically comes down to I think a lot is mindset when it comes to nutrition.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think you're 100% right. I mean, I look back now on diabetes, for example, is what got me interested in nutrition in the first place. You know, I don't think there's a world in which I would have started Catalina crunch, if I wasn't diabetic. And, you know, we're employing, you know, almost 20 people now, and it's like, you know, it's a great experience for me, I love it, and I couldn't be happier. So I gotta I gotta thank diabetes for that as well. Right. And, and so, you know, it's, I think it's also taught me to be more self, like self reliant. And, you know, as far as making sure I'm responsible, you know, you got to take your insulin around with you everywhere, you got to make sure you don't leave it somewhere, it's very expensive, you don't want to lose it. So there's definitely, you know, a lot of advantages to it. And if you, if you think of it, if you think of it that way, you know, if you decide that it's just, you know, like, you know, if you decide that life's not fair, and that you're unhappy about it, and you're just going to go moping around and happy about it, and maybe you're going to use it as like a crutch or use it as an excuse, you know, then it's not going to get you anywhere. But you know, if you're facing a challenge, you overcome that challenge, you know, any challenge that you face, and then overcome, I think it helps helps you build your resiliency, and it helps you overcome more difficult challenges in the future. And so, you know, in in that, you know, in that regard, you can think of any problem as a problem. But you can also think of it as an opportunity, you know, as an opportunity to better yourself. But just kind of to your point about mindset, it's kind of like a little bit of a mental trick, right? Yeah. And so it's, you know, it's great. I have a friend of mine, who started a business actually in the food space, and he started it back in the 80s. And now, they are doing 100 million dollars a year in revenue, and he employs almost 500 people. And I asked him, one of the things I'd asked him was, like, you know, so what do you see as the key or one of the keys to your success? You know, and and I'd also talked to him about, you know, managing folks and hiring and people and culture because that all becomes really important. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And when you have 500 people underneath you, it's like, you can't do everything yourself, right? I mean, like you're doing, you're just like, you know, you're trying to trying to steer the ship. And I asked them, and one of the things he said was, he said, I never use the word problem. Instead, I use the word opportunity. And so he'll go to like his, you know, you would go to his team, no matter the size. And you come over and say, Hey, guys, we got an opportunity. Folks wouldn't know whether that was like a good thing or a bad thing. They wouldn't react. So they kind of like cautiously lean in, you know, like an opportunity, say, like, what does that mean, exactly, right. But when you phrase it that way, you kind of get people thinking, you know, it automatically gets thinking about, well, how can we, how are we moving forward? Right. It's like a forward thinking, train of thought, rather than having a problem. And I think a problem is like, thinking about what's blocking you, you know, whereas an opportunity is thinking like, Where can we go from here? It's, I think it's a neat little kind of like, language based trick to like, get yourself in the right mindset and get your team on board and things like that.
Definitely. Do it. Somebody that we actually work with lot of people on when it comes to nutrition side of things is the wording because realistically, people say, I can't have this, like, I can't have beer, I can't have cake and I can't have ice cream, what am I going to do and all they take away from that is the subjects that they all are thinking about is cake, beer and ice cream, rather than, like the actual factor of like, okay, we can work around this. So what we do like to talk about is swapping foods out like making the choice to swap the food, there might be the variation that instead of having a beer, you're having a like a clear alcohol instead. And you're choosing an option, that's a low sugar variation. And then instead of having the cake, you might choose to have like a gluten free dairy free cake, it might not be as fun for some people, but it's still going to give you an option, a variation of ice cream, once again, there might be like a coconut ice cream that you can have like we're really we're really really blessed in the world that we live in with the amount of houseboy we offer choice realistically. But I think it does come down to that wording side of things. Because if you put a block on it, and you it's it's about, I think getting away, like depriving yourself of that food, that's when it becomes really, really tough when when you're empowering yourself to make that different choice. That that can be such a big thing that's really like exactly what you're saying about the opportunity. Like, hey, you've got an opportunity here. I think that's, that's great. I really like that storey.
Yeah, yeah, no, yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right, we have more choice than ever. It's, it's incredible. I think, especially with food companies online, for example, you really have more choice than ever, because still, at least here in America, there really are hardly any keto products in stores. Yeah. And so but now there's like, online, and there's Amazon, and, you know, you can buy through people's websites. And so you can order this stuff, you can have it delivered directly to your door. And so, yeah, I mean, there's, there's also the, I mean, there's like a massive amount of opportunity. And as far as, you know, think about like, it's been amazing. And with like the like veganism, for example. And like all the nut milks that there are in like, you know, the vegan cheeses that there are and you know, you know, people are just getting better and better and better at it. And I think it's just gonna, it's just a matter of time, you know, that it's, it's like, there's so many options, you know, and I see it changing, like, from my perspective, and, you know, in the on the food side, and everything are a lot of I think what's happened is a lot of the technology that we have, is built for, you know, like the eating ways of like the 60s and the 70s, if that makes sense. Yeah. And so, you know, if you're, if you're trying to be gluten free, for example, it's it's much more difficult typically to make stuff without the gluten, right, because then your dough doesn't hold together. Yeah. And that have problems with the with, like, the specific equipment that you're using, you know, in order because then it gets sticky. And then it sticks to whatever like Blender you're using, and so on right now, but they're like, there are ways around this, it's just that we've come up thinking that this is the way that we make food and so now it's you know, difficult, you know, but yeah, there's, there's lots of opportunities. I mean, you know, not it's like, it's funny, because you say like, yeah, I can't eat ice cream anymore. It's like that's like, well, you have an opportunity to now pioneer a new, you know, not Ice cream Ice cream, basically. Right? or coconut ice cream, whatever you want to make it. So it's like a Yeah, just a way of thinking about it.
Yeah, definitely, man. And something that I've heard you talk about before is actually it comes down to just wanted to quickly write a little note about being a self taught food scientist. What did you mean by that? Like, what do you mean, when you talk about being a self taught food scientist?
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, at least I don't know what it's like in Australia, obviously. But I assume it's the same as we have schools in and we have degrees, you know, like, we have bachelor's programmes and masters programmes and PhD programmes in food science and, or in even specifically cereal science, and that you have folks that they take a combination of like chemistry classes, and food processing classes, and they learn all about food. And then they are then they are the ones that are usually developing products inside of large companies. And, you know, when you're starting for the first time all by yourself, like you got to learn that, all of that by yourself, right? Yeah, I think there's other parts to it is like, you know, one thing that I think a lot of people think about is like, well, how am I going to make this taste good, for example, like, what's the flavour going to be like and but, you know, when you think about food science and company encompasses much more than that. Now, you also about the texture for example, and which is really important in cereal, and you know, people want like something which tastes crunchy, like, you don't want soggy cereal, you don't want like chewy cereal, you know, like, you want crunchy cereal that was, you know, a big part of our cereal. And I think why so many people love it is because it's so crunchy. And it's so crunchy, because I spent so much time trying to figure out how to make it that way. You know, and there's like a whole, you know, there are books and books and books just written about punchiness. Yeah. And like how to achieve that exactly what that sensation is, like, in the mouth. Right. Like, you know, their their books that go into the cellular structure of the food. Yeah. And how that impacts the crunch Enos right. And I was actually taking micro graphs of the cereal, which is another words doing like a Mr. Eyes, basically, of the cereal, understand, like what the cereal look like inside, right. And basically, what you learn quickly is that when you have a product that's crunchy, it's usually crunchy, because when you bite into it, you create what's very similar to an earthquake in the product itself. And that gives you that, like, pushes back on your teeth and gives you that kind of crunchy sensation. Yeah. So you know, there's crunch Enos and there's shelf life, obviously, as well. And, you know, you're sending out products, you're selling it to customers, like, you're not, you don't want to be harming people. And so you don't want to be sending them stuff that's mouldy, you don't want to send them stuff that has gone bad or that smells bad. And so you have to think about, you know, how are we going to address those challenges, right. And when you're baking yourself, like, you know, life is good, you bake it, and then you eat it, you damn. But when it's sitting, you know, in a supermarket shelf for a few days before someone buys it, like it's got to be able to sit there and nothing goes wrong with it. Right?
touch on that real quick, like on the Yeah, like, when it comes to shelf life side of things like is this and additives. And I mean, we have talked to we've interviewed these chicks from Tasmania here in Australia, who'd run a course on additive free, like talking about the different additives that can be really quite, I guess, non favourable, and really quite, quite badly affect the human body? Is there any additives that you kind of came across? When you were doing your research that you were like, wow, that's like a definite No, no, for the things that you should be? I guess, people in general should not be eating things that you would not want a new product today.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so there are a lot of additives. for a couple of reasons, you know, for either shelf life or for like, kind of processing. In other words, like, like, there are additives that will make if you're making bread, for example, they're like industrial additives that will make the bread rise more quickly, or rise more evenly. Because like people want to buy bread that looks like good, right? And if you if you try baking bread, it's like very difficult to make bread that's as consistently, like fluffy as the bread that you buy in the store. Right? You gotta almost wonder like, how do they make it so perfect every time? Right? And the reason is, because they're using these additives, which really help. But you know, I think it depends on you know, depends on the store, like Whole Foods here in America, they have been really good about saying no to all of these different artificial additives that you can add to your product tell about what these things. Yeah. So from the get go, you know, I realised when I got into this world, that those were not going to be something that I was going to really touch, if you know if you will. But yeah, I mean, shelf life is one like, you know, it depends. Silver shelf life, you know, you first have to think about like, what's the challenge? Exactly right. Now, sometimes the challenge is like ran city where it starts to smell bad, like the fat goes bad. And after it oxidises. Other times, other times you have challenged where like mould is growing inside of the protein bar, whatever it is, right. So depending on the specific shelf life challenge, there are companies that typically have additives that you can just, you know, it's like, it's the best thing for if you're like trying to make a product and you're like, oh, but it goes mouldy, and a company comes to you and like says, Hey, you just add a little bit of this ingredient. Sprinkle this on, and it won't go mouldy anymore. You're like, okay, that's great, you know, makes life easy. But yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, but a lot of those can have, you know, artificial ingredients. And you know, that folks are not necessarily paying as much attention to, but yeah, all sorts of all sorts of things like that, that that companies can put in their in their food products.
Definitely. So it has that been like for you guys, what are the one of the main ones that you use for those those exact reasons like to make sure the rented DS and the thing, and making sure that shelf life is a is a thing? Like how do you do that? What What, what products are you guys using?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, so one of the first things is, is that when I first started making the cereal, and I was making it using almond flour is the base. And that was that almond flour is very difficult from Iran. So did he perspective because almonds have a lot of fat? Yeah. And so in as specifically, when you use almond flour, you're then baking that fat, which is like rising the temperature, and that's causing it to oxidise very quickly. So once you bake something with almond flour, you're typically not going to be able to just put it in a package, and then just like let it sit there for a long period of time. Because you've like baked like a highly, you know, something that has a lot of certain types of fats in it. So that was, for example, one of the challenges that we faced, and what we ended up doing is actually moving to now having a pea protein based cereal, for example. So we're using pea protein instead of almond flour. And, you know, for for, you know, among those things for that reason, um, so I think you basically have two solutions, which is either you can add things to your product, and or you can change the profile of the products or how you make the product in order to get around it, right. Like, for example, you can think about, well, maybe we can do like a no bake bar, for example, right? And then maybe if the bar is not baked, then the almond flour does not get heated, and then it doesn't cause the fat, your answer it right, yeah, you got those levers you have is like you can change the ingredients, you can change your you know, like baking process, or whatever the cooking process is, if there is one, or you can, you know, add additives. And so those are kind of the three, the three possibilities. Yeah, we don't really currently add anything to the product that is for the salt like that is for shelf life extension, per se. And the other Well, actually, one thing on this point is so there, for example, we use sunflower oil and part of the products. Now, a lot of people don't know this, but there are three types of sunflower oil, there's higher like sunflower oil, there's middle, middle egg, sunflower, and there's Linoleic sunflower. And these are different ratios of mono unsaturated versus polyunsaturated fatty acids in the sunflower oil. And, you know, a lot of folks get angry about sunflower oil, because of all of the because of the ratio of omega three to omega six fatty acids. But in reality that's very prevalent in Linoleic sunflower oil, not very prevalent at all and highlight sunflower oil. Yeah. And and it just so happens that heilige sunflower oil tends to go rancid much less quickly than the Linoleic sunflower oil does. And the reason is just due to the different compensation effects, like you know, different fats go rancid more and less quickly, depending on you know, they're given structure. Yes. And so when we, when I had realised that, you know, high like sunflower oil, obviously, as you might expect to the most expensive of the three, it's the one that unless it says on the packaging, highly sunflower oil, they're probably not using highly sunflower oil, right. But you know, we we started using Heilig sunflower oil for exactly that reason, because it can last a lot longer. And not just that reason also, due to the fatty acid composition, but it's one of those, it's another thing you can do is you can change up the whatever you want to call the variation of sunflower oil that you're using or whatnot in order to address some of those, those concerns. The issue with that is that it is cheap, like is the cheap one. So that's why it is the most most widely used product. And that's when it does get a bad name, like you're talking about. And there is a lot of studies on like, sunflower oil by itself, because they noticed that there was something going on with it. So they really kind of looked into it. But unfortunately, like we said it is it is the the cheaper of the
most used as well. Because is unfortunately companies kind of look at it as like, how can we cut costs? Like Where can we where can we save some options? And this is where we can save it. So yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's difficult because, you know, like, I was, like, we have obviously, like cereal, folks have a perception of what the price of the cereal is going to be ready. And so you know, if you're, if you're typically buying, like, Cocoa Puffs at the grocery store, you could be buying it for like two bucks, like three bucks like for for this big box, right? And then like, Catalina crunch, obviously, you know, a lot more expensive on that, you know, from that perspective, right. And so some folks, I think, that are that just don't get it as much or thought about as much they're kind of asking, so why does Why does Coco co Scott cost this much, and yours cost this much, you know? And it's like, well, you know, sugar cost about 15 cents per pound. So like sugar is like super cheap. And like Cocoa Puffs is almost half sugar. So like half of that box of cocoa puffs is like 15 cents per person, right? Whereas, you know, we're using monk fruit and said to sweeten the product, and you know, our monk fruit cost about $350 a pound. So like, there's a reason why we're spending more money, right? Yeah, and like, same thing with wheat flour, like wheat flour in America typically is about 35 cents per pound, that eat protein, we use cost about, you know, six to $7 a pound. So we're talking again, about like 10 to 20 fold increase in price, right. And you have a similar sort of thing with the sunflower oil, where I think it's like, Linoleic is around 25 cents per pound high tech can be $1 to $1 50 per pound, you know, and so, you know, you're talking about five times or 10 times as much money that you're going to be spending on these ingredients, right? So as Yeah, people sometimes they think that we're like, just trying to extort them basically, and when in reality, like, you know, we're trying to invest in, in things that that are that are better for you, but then are not, you know, not as not as cheap. Yeah,
I think that's something that people do have to come to terms with for themselves. Like, if you prefer to spend, really, you can save yourself a lot of money by not going out and having 10 drinks on the weekend. Like if you go out to a bar and have 10 drinks, that's 100 bucks gone straight away. Whereas that 200 bucks, you could have put towards your health. And realistically, health is an investment, like every time you go, and you pay for a gym membership as an investment in your health, every time you go and you put some good food you buy a better quality food, that's, that's really an investment into your health. And that's why things like I mean, unfortunately, the organic stuff is becoming more and more expensive. But at the same time, it is that that investment into your health. And so there is lots of ways you can do it cheaper. And I think like bulk by like with you guys, you've got for instance, when you sign up, so you getting the constant purchase, it's obviously valuable to you because you can see that the customer is going to be returning but you also give them a good discount based on that. So things like that. There's definitely ways you can like ball pie or order consistently that is going to help you out as a consumer. Isn't that budgeting it into make sure that it is going to work for you.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's funny I was, you know, another thing I was thinking about was like, sometimes like, it's like, you can buy the cocoa puffs, for example. And you can just eat that all day long. But like in the long run, you're going to be probably spending a lot more on like drugs, and procedures and whatnot right. Now, but yeah, cheap now, but it's not going to be cheap in the future idea. And so yeah, no, you're right. And we have I mean, we have like a whole sort of thing where you know, because you're right, like, if you buy like shipping costs are very expensive, obviously. And so if you buy in bulk from us, you save a lot of money, just as a result of not having to have it like shipped all the time. Right. Yeah. So a lot of we have a lot of customers who are actually buying three months of once they find out they like the cereal, they'll go ahead and they'll buy three or four months of cereal. Yeah, like in purchase, you know what I'm saying? And then you get that all shipped to you in one go. And, you know, enables us to save a lot. And so we paid pass that savings on to you.
Yes, but it's like, like, realistically, you think of anyone who goes to something like Costco who bought buys anyway, it's just the same thing. Really, it's just doing it online instead. Something you talked about before is your pea protein, when it comes to pea protein is and this is something I haven't really looked into a lot. I work pretty closely with some pea protein companies like they they send us the pea protein, and we advertised the pea protein a lot. Because it is it is a good product. They also work with like ham proteins as well. But when it comes to pea protein, like what is there much of a difference, like I guess what I'm trying to say? Is there a difference when it's called pea protein? Like is there something you should be looking out for to make sure it's a good quality pea protein compared to just getting a pea protein? Like what's the difference in the in the products itself?
Oh, you mean between the different types of like the different suppliers and pea protein? Yeah, like just
because it says pea protein, it doesn't mean it's going to be good, right? So what what are you looking for in a good pea protein
and such? Gotcha, gotcha. I say a few things. One is if you're going to like a GNC or a vitamin Shoppe, or whatnot, and you're buying a protein powder, I guess, which is called pea protein, you know, first thing you want to look at is like, Is it just pea protein? Or like, is there other stuff in it? Right. And so I think the easiest way to do that is to look at the ingredients, and then also look at the amount of protein per serving and look at how that compares to the serving size, right? Yeah, like if you look at it, and you see that like a scoop of protein has is 30 grammes. And that's a serving size, but only 20 grammes of protein. Well, like what's the other 10 grammes? Right, like it's something else? Right. And so, you know, like, folks, sometimes they'll realise that they'll get like a chocolate flavoured pea protein. And really, it's, you know, 10 grammes of protein 10 grammes of sugar and, you know, some some chocolate as well, right. And it tastes great, but it's not, it's not just be breathy, you know, that's like a classic, like a, you know, a trick, I guess that's something nobody's ever used or just like, just because it says pea protein doesn't mean that it's 100% pea protein. So you have to be clear if that's what you're looking for, or not. I mean, if you're looking for a chocolate shake that has pea protein, and that's that, but you're looking for pea protein, and I think I've just first make sure that it's just pea protein. Yeah. After that. I would say from my perspective, honestly, the next most important thing is most of the pea proteins come from one of four countries, and either the US, Canada, Europe, typically like Belgium, France, that area, yeah, Belgium, France, Germany, or come from China. And so, you know, there's been a lot of controversy over buying things from China. Because they have a history of, you know, paying off officials to certify products. Yeah. When they're reality, adding fillers to it in order to make money, right. Like, you want
to fly insane is not just genetically modified. Things like that. Yeah,
yeah, exactly. Yep. There's a lot of distrust around Chinese ingredients. For that reason. There are several stores in America, which will not allow you to put your product in the store, if you're using any Chinese suppliers of ingredients. Yeah, yeah. So so that's a big thing. And so I would say, if you are looking for a pea protein, I would strongly advise to avoid one that is from China. Because you don't know that you're really getting what you're getting. And even the company might not know that they're really getting what they're getting. Yeah. And that would be another one. And then I think, you know, aside from that you have Yeah, you have what you mentioned, which is you have a non GMO, pea protein versus GMO pea protein. And then you have the proteins which are organic versus B proteins, which are not organic. And then yeah, I mean, I think those are the main things to to be considering.
Yeah, definitely. I think when it comes to talking about pea protein by itself, like when you say for instance, like a flavour pea protein, some people just really find it quite good rainy, or, like, the, I think is the word that people typically use around the face of it. And I think if it was too far away from that, that you would know that it's not really a great products, because when you look at what a P is or where you're getting the protein from it is coming from a plant. So at the end of the day, you do kind of want it to be a little bit that way. got too many extras in it. That's when it's going to taste really sweet. And really flavoursome. And not not necessarily very helpful for the body potentially.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. If you're getting if you're getting into say some like a chocolate milkshake, you know, there's something to emphasise paper at the end here that I'm saying. Absolutely. Absolutely. And but yeah, no, I mean, to your point, that pea protein, I think, to varying degrees, you know, because it also depends on where the peas are coming from. Right. So, different p harvests from different countries around the world have, they actually have different tastes to them. But for the most part, yes, like peace taste like peace. And so you're going to be having, either I think we would call it either earthy or grassy notes, you know, to the flavour profile. And yeah, I mean, they're, they're, the companies have done, you know, work on a couple dimensions. One is actually, as far as the protein. I don't know if you remember this, but like, probably, like, 1015 years ago, every protein bar would taste really like Sandy on your mouth. Yeah. And, you know, it would just like, you just like, eat it. And then there just be this like sand or like chalk that was just like sit on your tongue, right. And so they've gotten good, for example, at making the protein more soluble on on the tongue so that it just absorbs into your tongue, like into the mouth, like from your saliva, right? Like, rather than just kind of sitting there and things like that. So there are definitely companies that are working on making these things taste better. And so you know, another thing that we've found for example is like Yes, so the pea protein has a little bit of a p taste to it, but like folks don't want to eat pizza tasting cereal me like Now the one thing that you realised though is that like when you're adding other flavours to the product, they like some flavours Can Can you know, like complement the taste appease other flavours can exacerbate the tastes of peace and then other flavours can like hide the taste of peace right? Oh, yeah, so like for example, we have Cinnamon Toast cereal. Yeah, and cinnamon is like a super loud flavour and like It Will you know you won't taste anything else that you eat enough cinnamon You know, I'm saying like you say cinnamon. And so like that's one example of like the things that you can do another one with another flavour we have our first flavour chocolate worked forever to make this taste good because chocolate at just like sort of exacerbates the negative grassy qualities of the pea protein. Yeah. And so it is difficult it is difficult to make chocolate go well with peace and and so we spent a lot a lot a lot a lot of time trying to figure that one out, like getting different cocoa cows from different parts of the world seeing how they mixed up the pea protein, like a lot. I mean, a whole bunch of time working on that on that problem.
Yeah, definitely. And when it comes to like adding sweeteners is just like a stevia or xylitol like an alcohol sugar instead, is that something that you kind of had to have a look at as well like and obviously there's, with the alcohol sugars, there's some that a less favourable than others with the way that responds like some of them will literally your body will not process them at all. And so it just gets stuck in your system and going eventually gets just turned to waste. But it goes through and your body has to digest the food around it essentially and break it down from what it is and then it has imported into the waste product and it comes out exactly how it went in essentially it was that something that you kind of really looked into is the sweetness side of things as well.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, because the number one thing is that know any one of those sweeteners you know none of them tastes exactly like sugar. Right? They are they vary in quality and you can do different you like there's a lot of work that we're doing and other companies are doing to make it taste more like how you would taste a sugary just like a regular sugary product cuz that's the goal right them yeah, you want to taste you want to use want to taste exactly like what people are want and are used to right. You don't want to tasting differently, really. And so that I mean, you know, we are constantly evaluating different possibilities. And you know, when it comes to how we're going to add sweetness to the product, I kind of make a distinction between I would kind of put these into three buckets right the sources of sweetness is like one is you have stevia and monk fruit monk fruit being what we use, yeah, which are like natural high intensity sweeteners. And so they're typically 150 to 300 times sweeter than sugar is Yeah, and then have sugar alcohols and like your xylitol mela tall or throw tall and so on. These are typically actually less sweet than sugar. So these are typically about 70% of the sweetness of sugar. And then obviously in the third bucket, you have like your artificial sweeteners, like your sucralose and other you know things like that you're going to find in Diet Coke and whatnot, right? Yeah. Now, the key kind of difference between the first two categories is the actual intensity of the sweetness. So when you think about it, given the monk fruit, for example, is 300 times sweeter than sugar for if you were to use if you're taking a recipe and say the recipe called for one cup of sugar, you're now going to substitute it for, you know, one 300th of a cup of monk fruit, right? Yeah. Whereas if your recipe calls for one cup of sugar, and you want to substitute mallet all, you're now going to be using almost two cups of Mal, it's all to replace. Yeah, that one sugar. Right. And you know, what that does, from a nutritional standpoint is that if you're deciding you're going to eat one bowl of cereal, you only have so much like that little a certain amount, right? Yeah. And like, you know, if you if you if half of it is mal at all, now you're eating half Mal, it's all for breakfast. Right? Which, which, you know, even if even if you you can say that it does not, you know, it's not digested by the system and whatnot. And so you know, they're like different kind of folks with different perspectives on on, you know, whether it should be counted as net card like towards net carbs or not, and that whole discussion, but for me, I think it's kind of moot because it's like, even if you even if you don't feel like it's being digested, you're still just eating a bunch of Mal, it's all for breakfast, and you could be eating protein, you could be eating cycling, you could be eating healthy fats, right, like all that stuff that you could be that you're said, just putting mallet all into your body, right? And then you're there to your other point is that yes, those things can cause bloating and people, cause indigestion cause you to feel uncomfortable. And so we don't use any of those for those reasons. And that's why we use monk for it is it's just so much sweeter than sugar as you use it in like a really, really small amount. And so it still leaves a lot of room for your cereal bowl to have a lot of protein, a lot of fibre and a lot of the healthy fats that you're looking to eat that you would want to eat.
Yeah, you know, on a side note, I've got a friend who's doing his PhD on monk fruit and just that they that like claiming it to be like such a superfood, like the crazy amounts of things and benefits they're going to get from it. It's really, it's kind of like I talked to him every once in a while I haven't talked to him for about six months based on it. But they'll pretty much say like how they could bring monk through in to be like a pretty much a substitute for a lot of things like such as sugar, but just because of its inflammatory properties and bits and pieces, and really comes down to the the weight loss side of things, I really feel that if they can get into it into more products, that they really won't have that high epidemic that we do when it comes down to healthiness or obesity, I really, I think is the big thing they're trying to overcome. Jews are just being so much less than calories compared to what the show goes on.
Yeah, and it's funny, I did not realise there was someone studying it full time for their PhD thesis. Exciting, man.
Cool. It's actually like, I think it's actually sponsored by the university like he I think he even gets paid money to be like to be doing it, which is really cool. So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, definitely. Well, Krishna, dude, I think this has been awesome. Like, there's been a lot of insights. And I think one thing that really kind of gets me is that I've got a lot of friends and family and even just people that I work with, through our business that a really conscious about health and wellness themselves, but potentially don't take it on board for their kids, which kind of baffles me because realistically, you'd want them to be feeling as good as what you're feeling as well, in my mind. That's how I think so i think one thing that you're trying to really bring forward to the world is that you can eat incredibly good tasting food and you could have a healthful option whilst doing that, like, healthy doesn't mean it has to be boring. There is definitely creative ways around it. And that's exactly what you guys are doing through Catalina TechCrunch. And I feel realistically if we can get like the younger generation on to things like this and not Cocoa Puffs despite the cost difference like I feel that the health is well worth the investment. So yeah, I like to say thank you dude, for what you're doing. I think it's really cool. And I I really appreciate the conversation we've had because I think it will be incredibly insightful for people that are listening. I appreciate you having me on Am I enjoyed the conversation as well. And I hope to be back soon. Good man. Where can people follow along? Where Where can we follow along to find out when you come to Australia so we can
absolutely, yeah, we don't sell in Australia right now unfortunately. But you can go to Catalina crunch.com actually and sign up for our newsletter in the bottom of the feed and then we would obviously let you know when we do launch in Australia. It is in it is in the works. It is in the works.
That's awesome. And it's definitely one thing that I've been doing yours is listening to podcasts and every time I hear of a product like this I wait until I get to the state so I can go and buy it I can trial it. Like things like the perfect food bars when I used to hear people talk about them non stop and then went to the states we bought like bulk of the perfect food bars. So excited. So yeah, Catalina crunches made the list next time in the states and bulk by
Alright, sounds good. Hey, maybe you should open up a distribution company. Yeah, exactly.
We can actually talk we've got we've got some people that could help
you out definitely with that. Cool. Alright. Thanks, Krishna. Yeah, thank you. Visit the Chief black.com for all of your nutrition coaching needs, your own personalised meal plan, as well as how you can get involved with one of our seven pillar retreats.