Episode 162 - Complete

Vinny Welsby1h 6min

Speaker 100:00

You're listening to the face value podcast episode 162 Fat people barred from homeownership adoption and more. Let's do it

Speaker 100:24

Hello, and welcome to this episode. I hope you're feeling splendid. You're having a good day, a good time a good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, or good middle of the night. Whenever you're listening to me. Welcome to this episode, I had an email from Susanna. And it has inspired me to do this episode. And actually, I've been made aware of some things that I didn't know previously. And I'm sure that you didn't know about maybe some of these or maybe all of these before the, the ways that that people are barred from from life. And Suzanna wrote me an email, which is just absolutely horrific, and frustrating and mind boggling. So I want to start this episode off with a trigger warning, we're gonna be talking about ways that fat people are discriminated against, that we might not have thought about, maybe not on the day to day basis that we think about, you know, in regards to accessibility, you know, in regards to seating and the doctor's office and things like that. And obviously, all of that is absolutely unacceptable. But there's other ways that we haven't spoken about before. And so if that's not feeling great for you today, then skip this episode. Cuz Yeah, it might be a little bit much. So anyway, so let me read this email from Susanna. Susanna says I am a faithful listener to listener of your podcast. Thank you. I am a super fat person trying to buy a house in Ireland. Ireland is the only European company country that requires a mortgage protection insurance. So mortgage protection insurance is this is me. So MPI is a type of insurance policy that helps your family make your monthly mortgage payments if you the policyholder, and mortgage borrower die before your mortgage is fully paid off. So basically, if you are someone who dies, and you have a mortgage, you've just taken out a mortgage, and so that mortgage protection insurance will pay off the policy from what I understand. So Ireland is the only country that requires MPI, mortgage protection insurance. Although looking into this, we've I've seen someone say the same thing has happened in Poland. So there might be a different name of insurance or there might be just standard insurance, because you might need standard life insurance. And so this there might be some differences, which also mean that other people in Europe and the world are discriminated in this way. Okay. So and it appears that people over a BMI and so by the way, I'm going to be mentioning BMI in this episode, because I thought about taking them out, but then I thought it might be helpful for those who are looking into these processes and themselves to know whether they are at the cut off or not. So heads up, I'm gonna be talking about BMI, okay. So it appears that people over BMI of 45 like myself, cannot obtain the mortgage protection and therefore cannot obtain the mortgage protection insurance and therefore, not buy a house having spoken to a lawyer, this is legal discrimination, so I cannot fight it in court. This is what they wrote me and so a quote from the insurance company, I have reviewed the file I'm sorry that the customer is not happy with our decision. When the medical details are assessed account was taken off the following with BMI of 48. We did not seek a GP report as a reason for the decline ature was based solely on the body mass index disclosed on the application form. If any of the details are incorrect, please advise and we would be happy to review same again. For this reason and by application of standard underwriting guidelines, it was necessary to decline this application for life cover. This decision is standard practice in the life insurance industry, and is based on tables of risk which has been compiled from actuarial experience by insurance companies worldwide. I'm sorry, we could not be of more help in this instance. Did you have any further queries at all? Do not hesitate to contact contact us. Go fuck Self. They refuse to obtain a doctor's report by their own words because they view fatness as a disease and excels in itself as you discussed in a previous episode, and then Suzanna links to another person who links to another article, another person who's experiencing same thing an article from The Irish Times about a bank refusing to release mortgage for a woman deemed at high COVID risk due to due to her weight. Susanna continues basically Irish banks could waive this requirement, but they don't because they believe based on my body size or fat people in general, I will die prematurely. Maybe that could be of interest to you for one of your podcast episodes. Thank you for your time. Your podcast is the only one who gives me faith that there are still decent people out there because living in a fat body means people usually show me their worst side yours respectfully, Susanna. The link that Suzanna shared goes to it says bank refuses to release mortgage for women deemed at high risk high COVID risk women says woman says she's been penalized for being fat and replacing the Oh words. By the way, being fat following the birth of her child. A bank has refused to release a mortgage loan to a woman seeking to buy a house over an issue connected to her mall mortgage protection policy. The woman told the Irish time she was refused covered by life insurance companies in the Republic. So the Republic of Ireland so if you think about Ireland, if you're not familiar, there is an island. There's a republic, which is in the three fourths of Ireland is Republic of Ireland. And then in the top right hand northeast corner is Northern Ireland, which is classed as the UK because that's that area is still colonized by the UK. So the companies in the Republic Republic of Ireland, she was refused coverage because they said that her BMI placed her at greater greater risk for COVID 19 complications. By the way, a study has just come out to look at all the studies that said that fat people are higher risk from COVID. What do you think it found? We're not a surprise, fuckin surprise. We don't have that information to show that fat people. If we look at this study what it showed I'll talk about it in more detail later. But this study what it showed is that because there we needed quick information that in the times of COVID, the studies that showed a link between COVID outcomes and risks and all that type of stuff that said that fatness was a risk factor, they were of poor quality, and they didn't control for certain things. Same with the h1 N one. Bird Flu wasn't a bad flu. Yeah. They said during that when that epidemic was happening, that fat people were a higher risk, fatness caused increased deaths, etc. Afterwards, when they had the time they looked at the studies again, they controlled for weight bias. And so they controlled for time when people got treatment. And so if fat people were treated the same as sin people, the outcomes were identical. So anyway, this is not based on science continuing, however, despite the woman's subsequently sourcing cover, with a UK based insurer, her bank is still refusing to release the mortgage. She said, Yeah, so she probably went to the north of Ireland, she might have gone to England and got a policy from the north. And so this is literally the difference between walking 10 minutes somewhere else and you're in a different country. But you're you know, it's ridiculous. Basically, if you've got a UK based insurer saying, we'll cover you. The bank is saying no, it needs to be someone from the Republic. Every bank in the republic is saying we do not cover fat people. So the woman in the early in her early 30s had a baby early last year and said her BMI had been high since the birth. She pointed out that she'd been medically assessed by a nurse working on behalf of a UK based insurance company. Somebody subsequently offered her offered cover for 10 year period. Despite this, her bank said this cover was insufficient. The bank's refusal to let her drawdown for mortgage was putting the purchase of the home she is under contract by at serious risk. She says I'm at the end of my tether, but I'm not giving up without a fight. I had a baby in 2020 and I haven't lost the baby weight. I know that but the insurance companies and now the bank are penalizing me for that. The woman who asked not to be named said the woman said she had permanent pensionable job with death in service benefits substantially higher than the value of the mortgage of 116,000 euros that she applied for. She also said that she has separate financial safety net in place and now had mortgage protection cover for over 10 years. She has also re restructured the term of the Post morgase reducing by it to 16 years as somewhat. So the mortgage is only over 16 years and they're so worried that she's about to die because she has a BMI of a certain amount. There will still refuse it doesn't make sense. She's also she says I'm also putting down a huge chunk of savings, and the loan to value ratio is less than 80%. However, the bank has refused to budge. The woman said the she went, woman said she went sail agreed on what would be her first home last December, and was set to move out of her rented accommodation at the end of March. I have literally nowhere else to go. And the vendor is extremely frustrated and wants to put it back on the market. I went off to sleep on my parents couch from Saturday. absolutely outrageous. I replied to Susanna, I don't know if this is this is going to help anyone but I'm I just want to let you know of a resource. So I said to Susanna, thanks so much for reaching out. I'm furious for you. This is absolutely unacceptable and vile. I'm so so sorry that you're experiencing this. The latest episode of the podcast comes out this week. And it's about legal stuff being fat in the workplace. The only way around this is that your lawyer may not be familiar with is suing on the grounds of their definition of fatness, as a disease, this would fall under disability discrimination. There is an organization that may be able to help or not but it's in the US is called flare. So flare project.org, flare prod project are the people who are working with Dove. And he's asked her or Nafa to work on laws to protect fat people in the US. So that's the thing. I said some of the things to to Susanna and asked if she would like me to use this in in the podcast episode. And she said yes, I absolutely would like it. And that she had reached out to flair and had booked a chat with them. So thing is though, I don't know, I really hope that this can get resolved. Because not being able to buy a home in your country is wicked. It's wickedly awful.

Speaker 112:23

Talk about systemic discrimination. I'm just it makes me feel sick, that this is happening and when and someone else so I put a story up and I asked Has anyone else had experience with this? What about other discrimination that we might not have thought about? And someone else said that there was a guy in Poland who couldn't buy a house because of the same thing he couldn't get insurance. Because insurers tend to think that seem to think that fat people are about to die at any moment. And it's so interesting like that that response, you know, from that insurance company saying the decision is standard practice and is based on tables of risk which have been compiled from actuarial experience by insurance companies worldwide. It's not true. It's not true that fat people are dying younger. If you're looking at the health of a person, if the doctor says their health is good, why are we not using that information versus an arbitrary number? And we know the insurance companies are the the genesis of BMI being used to profit from fatness and BMI being established as a guide for health and Louie doubling from MetLife in the 1930s. He is the guy that has started this and it is not from good data. It drives me bananas it you're so so I asked people what what other things have you have seen. And so people have said I'm just gonna read them out and then we're gonna go into each each one. You can't work as a nurse in Arab countries If your BMI is over 30. In the US, you can't donate your body for scientific research if you're over a certain BMI. Three times the price of health insurance with less coverage based on BMI with good labs and no medical issues. I've heard of adoption agencies not placing kids with parents who are fat. I work with underage teens and the systemic barriers to size in schools is disturbing. Someone else had basics furniture rollercoasters, transit airplanes don't fit us safely and comfortably. There was a man in Poland who wanted to buy a flat but didn't get it loan Okay, so he didn't get get didn't get the mortgage. You had to get the oh okay, so you had to get the insurance along with the loan and they guessed that he wouldn't live long enough so it was he got the loan but not the insurance, hospital hospital social worker here huge uptick in rehab, lawn care placement, etc denying long care, long term care etc denying placement due to size. Women needing fertility help are denied due to BMI in Canada, you can't adopt in the UK If your BMI is over their criteria 40 I think I think adopting children from other countries as well as some fertility treatments. There are areas in the UK and Ireland work where one can't adopt a child If your BMI is quote, high, can't get life salary or health insurance in the UK, no problem mortgage protection and payment protection insurance in Canada denied health insurance due to BMI by two separate companies. So I've picked a few of these to look into and see what we know about him. All of those are absolutely unacceptable. absolutely unacceptable. So let's start with adoption. What do we know about adoption? So looking into it, basically looking into it, it's not a absolute rule that you cannot adopt, if your BMI is over 40. By the way, if you're not familiar with BMI, a BMI of 40 isn't high. Right? It's not, it's not, you know, it's gonna affect a lot of people. Right? It's just it. The cut off is I think the cut off is the 40 between someone who is classified as Oh word versus morbidly o word, which is all just made up is just absolute garbage bullshit. dogshit a fucking ate it is made up shit. And people are being using that to discriminate against people. And so basically what from what I found, I'm gonna give you quotes from different articles, what I found is there are many instances of people being denied. There are instances of people being told to lose weight, then going away losing weight and then getting the kid there are instances where it is seen as a negative factor. And so a social worker needs to assess if the fat person knows that they're a disgusting fat person and promises to not make the child fat, and then they will be accepted. There is no world wide definite cutoff. So if you're looking to adopt and you have a BMI around 40, or more than 40, please don't feel disheartened that it's it's not a possibility for you. There will be places where they'll they will say no. And there will be places where they will say yes, and there will be places where they say maybe Okay, so here's a post from the guardian to fat to adopt the married teetotal couple rejected by counsel because of man's weight. Charlotte and Damian Hall are teetotal non smokers with a stable 11 year marriage behind them. She has a career as a nanny, and he shares her love of children, they would appear to be ideal candidates as adopters for a child in need of a new family. But yesterday emerged that Leeds City Council so this isn't UK, by the way, has rejected the halls because he is too fat. The couple has approached the authority about adoption adoption after health checks were informed his one his six foot one physique, they're giving them his weight physique gave him a body mass index of 42. Again, it's a low number. So he's his BMI is 42, categorized as morbidly Oh, and at increased risk of serious illness or death. It's so ironic, increased risk of serious illness and death due to weight bias like is due to being forced to lose weight, yo yo dieting due to medical stigma. The couple were told that if his BMI dropped below 40 And he was able to maintain the weight loss they would be reconsidered, again, something that is not possible for the vast majority of people, which is also a risk to his health because intentionally losing weights has negative side effects. In a letter to the local authority told the halls we are unable to progress an application from you at this time. This is due to the concerns that the medical advisors have expressed regarding Mr. Hall's wait. We will require Mr. Hall to have a further medical and six ml It's time which we will be considered which will be considered by a medical adviser. It added that the adoption panel was unlikely to approve applicants with a BMI over 40 because of the long term health risks. A tote spokeswoman said quote the council's adoption service has a legal responsibility to ensure that it's looked after children are placed with adopters who are able to provide the best possible lifelong care. Part of this responsibility is advice for applicants on a range of suitability criteria including any health or lifestyle issues which may impact on an applicant's long term ability to adopt. Now, let's look let's look at this. We have a legal responsibility. This is what the adoption agency we have a legal responsibility to ensure that children are placed with adopters who are able to provide the best care so fat people can provide the best care because fatness automatic, it automatically means that a lack of health so they're saying including health or lifestyle issues also apparently fatness is a lifestyle issue. When we know that fatness is just a normal way of having a body and also so the doctor said not said Mr. Hall has XYZ health problems. They've just said he happens to live in a fat body. And so because he happens to live in a fat body with no medical issues with with a they saying teetotal What do they say non smoking? Absolutely. Everything else is suitable. Apart from the fact that they believe that fatness equals ill health equals dying prematurely equals not being able to look after children and that is wrong.

Speaker 121:54

So elsewhere in the UK in Lincolnshire, Lincolnshire, talked about size and so the Lincolnshire county council follows a guidelines from the British Association for adoption and fostering and the Chief Medical Officer regarding weight and for applicants with a BMI of over 40 would suggest that they need to make efforts efforts to reduce the weight before applying. So in Lincolnshire, they say you need to have a BMI of 40. And if you don't, you need to make efforts to reduce your weight. And then they say there is no weight which would definitely preclude anyone from adopting adopting. No families were rejected by Lincolnshire county council because they fail to meet its weight or BMI criteria in 2019 or between 2015 and 2019. So in Lincolnshire, which is a large county in the UK, no one was rejected because of weight. I wonder though, I wonder though, if people were were rejected due to health if someone was fat, and they also happen to have a another health condition. So if they had type two diabetes, which is associated with fatness not caused by fatness associated by fatness. And that was a reason. So I don't know. But that seems like they, they they are more flexible. Here is a document links to everything in the show notes, by the way. So you can find this if you if you want to subject your poor brain to this bullshit. There's a guide here that has been created on guidance on fat adopters. And so this is for social workers. And this is saying, This is how we screen fat people. It is so fucking offensive. So I'm scrolling down to point for evidence to be gathered during social worker assessment of Oh, word applicants. There are suggested questions and so we want to they were saying we want to understand their knowledge and understanding their attitudes, their behaviors and what outcomes have come from your time with this person. So these are the questions are asking, What does the applicant understand about the causes of being fat? And how these causes contribute to ill health? I mean, what if I wanted to adopt I don't? What if I did, and they interviewed me? I could not I don't think I could lie and say it's just a normal way to have a body and contribution to ill health is yo yo dieting and and the way society treats fat people. The next question in the circumstances of the applicant, what factors or combination of factors do they think have caused them to be fat? And I would say it's just a normal way of having a body and presumably the person would have like, denies responsibility for being fat. What does the applicant understand by a healthy diet for their family? Li? Are they asking the same thing to thin people? No. Are other family members fat? What the fuck is that got to do with anything? In the case of foster carers applying to become adopters have previous children placed with them gained excessive weight? It's just so fucked up. Have they gained excessive weight? Wouldn't this have children who are in foster care who are up for adoption? What do we think they could have experienced trauma? What type of trauma? Could they have experienced? I don't know, let's think maybe they could have experienced food insecurity. Maybe they came from poverty, maybe they came from a place where they were not able to access food freely. Maybe they were in a group home where they didn't have a variety of food to have access to. And then what might happen if they get into a home where they have a little bit more freedom, where they have a little bit more resources? Potentially? What might they do the same thing that we all do? When we are getting out of diet land? How might they comfort themselves? How might the if I mean shit, wouldn't you if you were looking after a child, I would be giving them so much of everything. I'd be giving them all the delicious food, the most comfortable bed, like toys that they loved, nice clothes, you know, like within, like within what I could afford, wouldn't you. But you, you wouldn't be treating them like you would someone that needed love and care. And an outcome of that might mean that they have a bigger body or not. And so you could be doing the exact things that that child needs, giving a secure food source, and how they have gained weight. And now it's like, wow, sorry, the last kid that you had, who you were doing the absolute best for is chubby. So you're a bad parent? No. Absolutely not. So, so fucked up. Okay, other things attitudes. What is the applicants attitude to physical exercise currently, because we all know fat people never exercise? Does the applicant plan to lose weight? Has the applicant tried to lose weight? How would the applicant support a child in their care who was fat and needs help to lose weight? How would they help a child to lose weight? This is abusive? Can you imagine? Oh my God talking about trying to fuck up the kid even more gets into an adoption placement. And then he's put on a fucking diet after the shit that that child might have gone through? No thank you. behaviors. What is the applicant currently doing in order to live a healthy lifestyle? In terms? Okay, so what they define a healthy lifestyle? How do they define a healthy lifestyle? Their dietary intake and their physical activity because there is no other version of health? How has this changed over time? Is the applicant able to provide a child with physical daily activity? How would they do that? What is the applicant's capacity? Do you engage in physical activity? Do they go to the gym? How often? Do they become breathless climbing a flight of stairs? Yeah. No. Does the applicant have time and resources to successfully lose weight? No, because weight loss doesn't work? are they receiving response support from Weight Watchers? You have got to be fucking kidding me? Are they receiving support? And they're saying from their partner from their GP from the staff at the gym from slimming organizations such as weight watchers. One of the chances or Weight Watchers has embedded themselves into the adoption agencies. This is absolutely horrific. And then okay, so then the outcomes from this meeting. So the outcomes next time you meet with them, how much weight has the applicant lost? Over what period of time how they achieved this could this be continued when a child is placed with them? Fuck you. Whoever wrote this. I hate it. It is so stigmatizing. It is so offensive. It is so wrong. It's just wrong. This is not helping anyone He's not helping kids. Fuck that person fucking hate them. Okay, so a story from someone who in the UK we were turned down for adoption for being Oh word. Okay, so the guy says, we've made contact with Barnardos. This isn't UK by the way, Barnardos is a children's charity. And at first nothing was said we were told we'd be perfect for adoption as we were young and we had good jobs. It was only after a meeting with our area manager a few weeks later that she explained we would need to lose weight as it was a requirement. She explained that the medical adviser would reject our application otherwise, as it was important to promote a healthy image to children that we would adopt great way to promote a healthy images through fucking dieting and hating your body. Good.

Speaker 130:53

At first, we challenged you but they but the agency insisted it was non negotiable, my wife and I couldn't help but feel incredibly hurt and upset because we knew our body shape could could and would never impact our ability to prayer and exactly we were both given a weight target of a stone to lose which is 14 pounds which would be confirmed through medical examinations for fuck sake the pressure it placed on us was an measurable we felt guilty whenever we ate and there were would be tension if one of us lost weight but the other different didn't at times we even considered giving up it was it was so hard but we were determined to do it as we desperately want it to be parents. So it continues on basically they lost weight temporarily they adopted a child who is thriving they then want you to adopt again and instead of looking at their past experience how well is that child doing? You know have has the child died because the parents are so fat and disgusting that they you know, just ate the baby or whatever. Turns out not the child is thriving, but what did they have to do? Lose weight and so that's what where they left off is in their in the process again of losing weight temporarily just to meet this arbitrary fucked up definition of what health is fun times. Okay, so here's a story from the US. The notoriously complex adoption process has just got even harder for one man who claims his weight led to a judge deem him ineligible to adopt. Gary stock law firm told blah, blah blah in Kansas City, Missouri, that a family court ruled him unfit adoptive parent because of his weight stock law firm wants to adopt and his infant cousin because the mother is unable to care for the child, his cousin, we all know the best thing for children is to stay with family. If not then other family know because you too fucking fat, quote. It is what it was adopted, said if someone is fat, and therefore has diabetes, because obviously we all know all fat people have diabetes, and has had two heart attacks. Oh, of course, because we all know that fat people have had have two heart attacks. Well, that's a big risk for that kid. If the circumstance in the given case is that this kid isn't going to get long term loving home then you have to make a tough judgement. Go fuck yourself. That's adoption. IVF quote from National Post piece should there be a weight cut cut off for IVF firestorm of debate over denying fertility treatments to fat women. So in BC in Canada, private IVF clinics outside hospitals are not permitted to perform egg retrievals in women with a BMI over 38. So heartbreaking. Alberta, which is a province over has no restrictions. This is a quote from a doctor. To me it's a medical issue. It's not a discrimination issue. Yes, it fucking is. fat women are running risks in pregnancy and if they're running risks in pregnancy and white pregnancy, why should you be helping them get pregnant? You Gen X. Oh hello, eugenics. Dr. Laskin, here's a person who said this, who is a giant human turd has a BMI cut off off 35 Mine is a brick wall. He said other clients will go as other clinics will go as high as 40. Some have no cut off. Dr. Laskin says fatness makes IVF technically more difficult. Boo. Dr. Laskin, it's too hard. To work on the easy patients with IVF eggs are retrieved from the woman's ovaries via an ultrasound guided, ultrasound guided needle. But if you may, but you may have difficulty getting to the ovary. Dr. Laskin said the ovaries too. tend to be pushed up higher and the women's anatomy and excess fat can make it harder to visualize ovaries on ultrasound. Oh, you get a better ultrasound machine. Try harder. What a weird way to say I lack skills and I don't give a shit. I only want to do easy things. He couldn't continues. Fat Women also tend to respond more poorly to fertility drugs, you have to use a lot more drug to get a reasonable response. Oh, you got to give them two pills. It's such a hardship Dr. Laskin. Could that be? Let's use some critical thinking skills. Next Newsom. Dr. Baskin, could it be that the drugs were not made? For fat people? They were created with thin people in mind. They were they were tested on thin bodies. And that is not the problem of the fat people. That's the problem of the drug companies of the medical establishment. And so what do we do to fix that? Do we deny people the ability to have children? Or do we work harder to fix this issue? my spidey senses are saying we work harder. And if you want to know more about fertility, go to Nicola salmon, Nicola Sal mo en fat positive fertility and she will school are you on all of the bullshit.

Speaker 136:41

So I hoped Dr. Laskin goes in the bin because that's where Dr. Raskin belongs. There's a piece by the New York Times, and it talks about when you're told you're too fat to get pregnant. By the way, in that last story, there was a lot of women, women, women, women, it's not just women who access IVF treatment and who get pregnant. So just a heads up. Okay, so this New York Times piece, quote, during the first appointment point rented a large Boston fertility click click click click, click Nick clinic. Balzano says the reproductive endocrinologist was cold and unsmiling as she reviewed the couple's medical history. Her first question was whether Bolzano was ovulating. Irregular ovulation when a when a woman's ovaries failed to release eggs during the appropriate phase of the menstrual cycle, or other other genders is one of the most common causes of infertility. And what Balzano wasn't sure it was difficult to attract, track her erratic cycles at home, the specialist asked no follow up questions. It's your weight. She said. The doctor belzona was convinced I had reduced her to a single characteristic. It was like Why wait, there might be something else wrong. She recalls. My mum isn't fat, but she only had one pregnancy, and she was never on birth control. Couldn't there be something else going on here? Nick was furious. I know plenty of larger women who have been pregnant without any problems. He says this didn't make any sense. But they both say the doctor who declined my interview request on the basis of patient confidentiality, was adamant. I would never give you IVF they recall her saying you're too fat, have more sex and lose the weight. Although Bolzano didn't know it when she made the appointment the clinic that would have performed the procedure had a policy against providing IVF to patients with a BMI above 45 genius was 51.2. In that decision, it followed much of the fatalities industries, including half of of the 20 largest clinics in the United States. According to Phillips fertility, IQ and online clearinghouse of information on fertility providers nationwide. At some clinics, the cutoff for treatment is a BMI of 50 often classes, quote extreme or severe Oh word and others it's much lower. Chelsea Ritchie is now the mother of twins in Ham Lake, Minnesota, or Minneapolis, I don't know got a call from a nurse the day before her initial appointment with a verdict filleted annuity doctor in 2011. She said, I don't know only sees patients with a BMI under 30. So you need to lose 22 pounds. Ricci recalls. The doctor told me that that has cut off for seeing patients is actually a BMI of 35 Though he won't do IVF unless they're under 30. Richie subsequently conceived her twins after going to a different clinic. The belief that a high body weight causes infertility into fertility and its corollary that weight loss is necessary. Ready to resolve infertility underpin almost every interaction a heavy woman will have with reproductive healthcare industry, yet especially on OTs, to governing organizations, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine and the society or for assisted reproductive medicine technology have not established any guidelines on whether the treatment whether treatment should be declined on the basis of weight. I know someone in BC and BC where I am British Columbia in Vancouver in Canada who was devastated by being turned down because of her weight for IVF. She ended up having a two children naturally, but it was just heartbreaking. So insurance so other insurance we have weighed absolutely impacts the ability to get insurance and to get the best coverage and to get the cheapest coverage. So I found a table which looks at the maximum weight for standard premiums, and this is all genders. And so if you are is so low to get standard premiums from Manulife you need to be if you're five, eight, let's just do it on five eight because it's you know, because it's any gender, five eight person actually use 5758 is slightly covered up. Five, seven. So if you're five seven, if you wanted to get insured by Manulife you need to be 161 pounds for Sunlife 211 s es que insurance 238. And that's for standard premium standard premiums. That doesn't mean that you're not going to get insurance if you're over 161 pounds at Manulife it means that you have to pay more, but there will be cut offs for many places which will not insure people at all. And also there are insurance companies which you don't need a medical. So insurance, depending on where you are, you will will almost likely definitely be charged more if you have a bigger body. And some places you will you'll be denied totally in some places wait is not a consideration. Let's move to work. So here's a piece from Bloomberg wage discrimination. Discrimination remains legal in most of the US and the world. Specific specific protections can spur better treatment. And so this is talking about what laws we have at the moment and how people in places that have laws have used them to protect themselves from from anti fat bias. Michigan's law laws law made possible a lawsuit resolved on undisclosed terms by a store manager for the luxury retailer coach who alleged that the company had promoted her when she was petite, then fired her when she was an athlete first pressured her to take the weight loss hormones, get bariatric surgery and eat more Lean Cuisines in San Francisco. A settlement with an aerobics instructor forced Jazzercise Inc. to stop requiring its dance fitness teachers to quote look leaner than the public. You can't see if you're listening but I'm I'm making eyes at that. This is a from a piece from a Texas Tribune at Victoria Hospital Victoria in Texas in the US, fat jawed job candidates need not apply. A Victoria Hospital already embroiled in a racial discrimination lawsuit has instituted a highly unusual hiring policy. It bans job applicants from employment for being too fat Victoria Hospital, they just read that but the citizens Medical Center policy, instituted a little more than a year ago requires potential employees to have a BMI of less than 35 which is 210 pounds for someone who is five foot five. It states an employee's physique quote should fit with a representational image or specific mental projection of the job of a healthcare professional, including an appearance quote, free from distraction from hospital patients. pushbutton patients are distracted by the presence of a fat person. They need to be schooled and educated on their bias. The majority of our patients are over 65 and they have expectations that cannot be ignored in terms of personal appearance. Yes, they can. They can't be ignored, because they're based in bigotry. hospital chief executive David Brown said that in an interview, we have the ability as an employer to characterize our process, and to have a policy that says what's best for our business. And for our patients. employment lawyers say citizen medical centers hiring policy, that policy isn't against the law. Only the state of Michigan and six US cities, including San Francisco and Washington DC, banned discrimination against the fat in hiring. So I was trying to find someone to have to come on saying you can't get a job if you're if you're over 35 BMI in Arab countries, I was trying to find that but you know what some you know, when you put BMI and weight loss into Google, ie the amount of weight loss stuff that comes up, and the amount of nurse loses weight and now now they are able to properly care for clients. Yeah, cuz they, they, they have a brand new brain that makes them be able to care for clients better because they have a smaller body. Yeah, all of that medical training was useless before because they had a bigger body.

Speaker 146:12

Donating body to science. This is from Vice. Most Americans are too fat to donate their bodies to science. Scott Muffet Macpherson's mum had been dead for less than 24 hours when the phone rang with more bad news. Delores Macpherson's body was on its way to the university University of New England's whole body donation program, but it had been turned back because of her BMI. Here I am just hours after my mum mums passes and I'm going against her wishes because the school shut the door on her. Scott recalls. The medical school no longer wanted her despite a contract signed 12 years before her death. They told Scott his 84 year old mum had been disqualified for becoming a word. fatness is one of just many reasons whole body donations are denied by schools like the University of New England. But in a nation where two thirds of the population is fat. It's a growing concern. Not least four would be donors facing what amounts to the ultimate fat shaming. A lot of people who are fat they've been so stigmatized during their lives, says Ronald Wade, Director of the Maryland State anatomy board Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. Then the last thing they're told is no one even wants your body. Commonly referred to as donating your body to science whole body donations are used for both Medical Education and Research at universities across the country. Medical students are required to take an anatomy course early on in their studies, dissecting cadavers to learn the ins and outs of the body. While those were surgical ambitions often end up working with cadavers later in their student studies to practice technical surgical techniques. Medical researchers use dead bodies to studying the effects of various diseases and organs to advance medicine. To donate however, requires meeting a number of criteria not regulated by the federal state governments in most areas, the guidelines for disqualifying a body vary from program to program. Institutional programs typically exclude donors who have suffered some sort of trauma such as a car accident or limb amputation and those who died of an infectious disease. Many use BMI as a guide for a Sona donor size disqualifying anyone with a BMI of over 35 While others spell out specific heights and weights. The direct Donor Program at IU SM tells donors that cannot exceed six foot tall and 200 pounds. Although the quote maximum acceptable weight of a donor may be lower based on the person's height. And Tallarico says that there is some quote wiggle room on a donor size. The weight criteria to criteria I USM is on the higher end for institutions. Higher end at 200 pounds. This tiny teleferico add some schools limit donations to people at 180 pounds or smaller. And yet the CDC released data in summer of 2016 that show the weight of the average American man is 195.7 pounds. As in the average American man is not currently able to donate his body to science because simply because of his weight. Wade says that there is a bonafide need for the bodies that are turned away in most places. However, his office places some larger bodies with medical researchers on occasion on occasion, but they're particularly useful in clinical training because they're more reflective than small donors of the patient population. patient population, everyone from EMTs to trauma doctors to morticians will encounter in the field. No, sorry, I read that weird quote in the ER patients come in with different shapes and sizes. He explains big people have cardiac arrests. They have false if you're proud To think intubation, you don't want a little old emaciated person. The latter is a typical donor accepted by donor programs, someone whose body is has not suffered trauma that would exclude them and has either carried a smaller frame through life or seen BMI drop due to loss of muscle mass and fat from age and disease. Those people need treatment in emergency and operating rooms, too. But the CDC fatness statistics indicate there are fewer of them than their larger peers. So why aren't the cadavers in medical schools reflective of that patient population as well. Anatomy classes are designed to teach future doctors what a body should look like a marker of health. And you see how this is so systemic. Doctors are learning on thin cadavers. They're being told that thinness is the preference. Drugs are being tested on thin people, medical devices, procedures, all of that is all focused on thin people. And so then when it gets to things not working on fat people, well, it doesn't take a genius to be like, ah, could that be? Why is it Dr. Dickhead from the the IVF treatment is not able to do his job correctly. Because he has not been taught on fat bodies. And he has been not been taught on fat bodies and told that's because fat bodies are wrong, and therefore fat people are turned away therefore fat people are not able to get pregnant when they need help. Then they turn to adoption. And then they say okay, well I'm gonna buy a house and then they turned away there. And they say I'm what I'm gonna get this new job and then they're turned away. They're all legally. And there's a whole episode like when I'm thinking I'm just thinking like, Oh, so many different things about the work thing. There's a whole episode I did on workplace discrimination, that people are hired less paid less promoted less. Everything you expect to see basically, citizen and Citizenship and Immigration, which is my goodness, getting fat people to not be able to live in countries, not be able to buy homes, not be able to reproduce, not be able to adopt children, not be able to get jobs, not be able to get insurance. Mmm hmm. So New Zealand, which is a notoriously fat phobic place. They were the people who out of University of Ortego came up with the jaw wiring. bullshit that came out a couple of years ago. Anyway, so to two stories here. We have the first is from the Atlantic, the misguided logic of deporting fat people. So quote from that a South African man is facing deportation due to his stature. After six years living in New Zealand, Albert guten hide who's viewed Butan who's may have to go back to South Africa, the government, the government decided he's too heavy to stay. Butan Hughes is now facing deportation. After officials denied his request to renew his work visa. He and his wife claim to have no previous trouble with that annual visual fees of renewals. New Zealand's immigration ministry maintains that at more than x pounds, his weight puts him at added risk for diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease. Despite reports from his physician that he's on track to track to correct a number of his health problems. The ministry remains concerned that weight related issues will translate into hefty future costs. New Zealand claims that it is simply exercising its policy to hold immigrants to standards that minimize their burdens on the country's health services. This year is assessments include flagging, and reviewing every immigrant with a body mass index greater than 35 meaning Butan who's no longer meets those standards. I wonder what happened. I wonder what happened to him. This next one is from 2021. To fat for for New Zealand mum can't lose weight fast enough for immigration officials. A woman deemed too fat for New Zealand residency is gutted a country committed to kindness is so brazenly shaming her and penalizing her family. doctors and medical tests are an agreement on Daliah views and and hoot This is a different person. This is a different this is so funny, but there's that their last names are so similar. Okay the guy from the first story Butan Hughes and then her name is bears schreeten Hoot bears we hunt bears, we didn't hoot because we didn't hoot mon del mon Daliah because we didn't hoot is in good health despite

Speaker 155:42

weighing. We don't need to know. However, an immigration New Zealand medical assessment determined her body mass index put her at quote severe risk category. Her application for residency was declined putting her family's future in jeopardy. The 35 year old immigrated to New Zealand with her husband Donovan and children Donna and Damien now 10 and three from South Africa in 2018, settling in Palmerston North. Donovan is a skilled migrant meaning his job as alignment is difficult is a difficult role to fill. Because of her rejection, no one in her family was granted residency. My whole family's life was in my hands and I blew it. It was all on me. It was a really it was really hard to swallow. It was my daughter who actually said to me, thumb they fat shamed you. And Immigration NZ spokesperson told stuff. There's Swindon hoots fatness alone was not grounds for declining a residency application but a gallbladder removal and 2013 and tension headaches. What the fuck is that got to do with fatness tension headaches? Was was evidence her fatness would be costly on the public health system? Oh, fuck off that burden has been calculated at $41,000 $41,000 How is that some huge burden for a family of four with a skilled worker to children who are going to be contributing to the economy and that the the mum there to 41,000 and that's their, their their costs, that's hurt their estimates if she gets I know who knows what they've estimated it on. But apparently she's gonna you know, her eyeballs are gonna fall out because she's so fat, whatever. Okay, so she gained full time employment in a government department and received a three year work visa granting her access to public health system. And the thought of now having to leave New Zealand after her family has established Roots was, quote, heartbreaking, scary as scary as hell, especially for their children. A son was seven months old when they left South Africa. He doesn't know any life outside of New Zealand and her daughter was so upset that he she had to call a mental health hotline now. She said that she's been bigger her whole life and had been bullied in school for it and now I'm being bullied by immigration. She had a particular issue with the part on the assessment that commented on her previous weight loss attempts and how they were not convinced she could keep it up. she'd lost 22 kilos since moving to New Zealand. The pressure to lose weight since her residency application began has been overwhelming. To be honest, every now and again I lose my shit and just have to keep myself grounded. Dr. Cap Jose, a senior lecturer in Massey University's Institute of Education on fat scholar said that she was right to feel insulted. Weight is not a proxy for health. She said the use of body mass index to measure individuals was completely inappropriate and was without any kind of evidential basis spaces. Paul's a went through the same process in 2010 when her residency application was rejected for the same reason. It took three rounds of medical assessments and appeals for the government to believe palsy was in good health. She is now a New Zealand citizen. BMI is not an indication of past current or future health. She pointed to the All Blacks who no one would consider Oh word but they were but they were classed that on the BMI scale. The bears Swindon hoots says visas expire the end of July because Donovan's line of work is still in demand. They are hopeful renewal of their work visas, the quest to avoid a life in limbo will be pursued through an appeal of the residency decision. So as a as a Canadian, I'm not a citizen yet. I am a permanent residency resident. As a PR they put you through medical assessments like they give you a chest X ray and then you have to have a dog Doctor Look at Yeah, didn't do anything just chatted about the book I was reading. Anyway, I at the time, my BMI was probably 34, maybe, wild guess, really no clue. And it wasn't brought up I looked at for Canada and US to see if there has been restrictions, and none that I could see. So I don't know if this is just a New Zealand thing, hopefully. But you know, you never know, right? You never know. Sure there's other countries, will all countries in the world there probably are other countries that behave like that. But that is honestly, as an immigrant. It is heart droppingly anxiety provoking to think that you're just going to have to leave imagine, you just have to leave the country that you've lived in. I've lived here for 13 years, to leave that country and go back to a country that might not feel like home anymore. So for me, the UK does not feel like home, I feel anxious to be there. And it would be devastating to have to leave a country and to have to leave because of some bullshit reason like being too fat. I mean, for I don't think that that's something that I'm going to have to face. But the folks in New Zealand, what were they would they say a BMI of was it 35 Was automatically flagged, gee, is low wage is yeah, 35 automatically flagged, I mean, shit there, the immigration officials are going to be big here. So who, and you're gonna have to like normal immigration processes. As someone who's who's a British person who's university educated, and doesn't have any mental health or neuro differences to make it make it more difficult to apply for immigration stuff. Actually, that's not true. Whatever I'm able to apply is what I'm trying to say, I've been able to apply for stuff. I haven't applied for my citizenship yet, because it's been stressing me out for years, literally years. So I was like, yeah, that's some mental health stuff. And something's going on there. Anyway, so I was able to do it. And that was really, really difficult to get to fill out those forms. And, you know, because it's such a high stakes thing. So that takes a lot of energy and know how and, and finances and all sorts of stuff. And so cat paws, they had to apply three times, or to apply or like, not apply, but question and the decision that many times how many people would just say, okay, you know, that whole process was so traumatizing. I'm just gonna leave probably a lot. I really can imagine that because, you know, like my sister. She was in Canada. She is a master's educated social worker, which is in high demand in Canada. She made a simple mistake on her immigration papers. They said you've got two weeks to leave, she had to leave. She never came back. She probably could have fought it. But you know, she was she was just like, she's dyspraxia ik she struggles so that's that's like, not dyslexic, but I think she's probably is dyslexic as well she kind of specially struggles with that type of stuff. And she falls over and things like that, you know, but anyway, so it's a privilege to be able to apply in the first place. Nevermind you know, fight it, you have to have a certain certain privileges to be able to do that. It is such a thin centric world This cannot continue we cannot continue treating fat people like this and I would like a big trigger warning for any of these articles I'm picking out the bits where they're not because they have counter argument arguments right a lot of the stuff that I'm you know, I've picked out apart from Dr. decade is so you know, like, Oh, should fat people be allowed to adopt and then half of the half the article is yes, of course that's fucked up. And then the other half is, of course not it's fucked up to replace children with fat people. So you know, trigger warning on that. If you do go and read any of these links. I'm gonna make a post about this on the Instagram so check that out a few days after the episode is out. If you want to share this stuff with your people, if you've enjoyed this episode and appreciate the work that I do for free then consider donating subscribing to me on cofee link is in the bio Do cofee is kind of like Patreon but better. Thank you for listening to this episode. Thank you Susanna for inspiring me with this episode. If there are any episodes that you would like to see, subscribe on cofee and send me a message over there and I'll absolutely do my best to see if I can. I can do that for you. And if you have any questions for the show, same thing. Go and subscribe on cofee and then send me a massage. Yeah, cuz I really like talking about things which are relevant to you and, and hey, take care of yourself this shit. It's fucked up. I'm gonna go and have a sip of my coffee and I don't know, do some fist shaking.

Speaker 101:05:43

And if you're experienced any of this stuff, then I'm so sorry. You do not deserve this. It is not okay. And I hope that you're able to find solutions even though many people are trying to keep barriers in place for for you and people like you. That's not okay. Things are changing. Alright, well, I wish sooner on the next episode. Thanks for hanging out with me today. I'll see you in a while I'm a gator stay fierce fan saying goodbye.

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