theater. And welcome back. It's been a while. But here we are, for the start of I have randomly decided that this is the start of season six. So season six, I think I think there was enough drama in season five that we could just like say goodbye, not not on not on the podcast, but in our other lives. That maybe we just need to start fresh with season six and
had an arc. And we were hoping that that arc has now concluded and we can move on it. We're Bobby in the shower, stepping out and saying I just had a terrible dream. Yes, Dallas in Dallas. Yeah, that's what we're gonna do that so old fart reference, because I guess
let's let's go Gen X. Yeah, so I am in case you've forgotten. One of your co host, Phil. Lee Skallerup Bessette.
And I am the other one of your co hosts, Amy. Hope Morrison. Here we are.
Can I just make a comment about Gen X that I've been thinking about? She know how, like we were ignored for everything. Absolutely. Nobody ever talks about us. But like, if it weren't for Gen X, Twitter wouldn't. There wouldn't be a Twitter for Elon Musk to run into the ground. But the other thing that there wouldn't be all of these like Peri menopausal and menopausal cooling sheets and against all of that, right. But, and and also I have to say, cuz as somebody who is very into sewing, and I know you're starting to sort of dabble that, like, I noticed that I got in during the pandemic. And that was sort of right at the cusp. And I feel like it's it's I got, I got involved in Twitter at almost the exact same moment where it was like, the growth of indie pattern designers like had just started. And so
you saying we that you'd like to before it was cool? No, no, actually you are because that was the next thing I've ever heard him.
I know I didn't like no but but what I want to give credit for though is that so there's all these indie pattern designers that are coming up, which is different from like the big three that you would have typically grown up with, which is the Vogue patterns, one that came in the envelope, the Vogue, the McCall's the field, but yes, there you go. And so within a technology, you could download things, a PDF, assemble your pattern pieces, all that kind of stuff, but the but then this next movement was like, let's make these patterns more size inclusive. And you know who all of these people, women, mostly, you know, all these women were Gen X women and x, all Gen X women like so. And again, without fanfare, not without saying this is a Gen X thing. Just said patterns need to be more size inclusive. And so companies were started specifically, with size, including inclusivity in mind, more and more of these pattern companies are also now extending the, like small pattern companies are expanding their size range, which is actually a lot of hard work. And so I appreciate that. But it just dawned on me that there's like, this is another Gen X thing, specifically women Gen X thing that is happening and is gonna benefit people, but it was like, but it's like, you can't claim it. It's not millennials. Plus, it wasn't boomers was us, even though you know, we just skip over us in terms of a generation. So yeah, I was, of course I've nowhere to like put this anymore, because like Twitter is not really a thing, or x or whatever the hell it is. And nobody on blue sky would understand what it is what I'm saying. So anyways, so I guess
it's just six but actually, that's actually kind of
cool. I bought a book.
It's called so it yourself. And it's like for beginning so it's but also, it's it has no patterns at all right? For accessories. It's like, you know, cut a square, right this size if you want to kind of big, but it has like a bunch of tops and dresses and skirts and collars and stuff that you can sew. And it's like, they're mostly based on rectangles. So you don't have to do a lot of curves when you're sewing and there's no patterns of any sort. It's like here are the measurements you take. And here's the formula to determine the size pattern that you want don't like puffy sleeves attach a different sleeve to this right so it's it's it's gone beyond accommodation into accessibility, if you will. Right and yeah, and I that's probably something we'll come back to through the season. I think I'm gonna go to the pandemic what I'm seeing a lot of we talked a little bit last season about as everything moved online, right out in a panic mode and corners got cut and things got made bigger or things got made smaller or things got like changed for an emergency situation coming out of that There's a lot more push for, you know, if we could put all of our courses online and they all use the same template, why don't we do that? In real space? Right? Like, why don't we just teach giant sections with TAs? And so it seems like this increasing push for a standard standard standard standard. And then calling it best practices is kind of like having patterns that are not size inclusive. And it's definitely not like take your measurements. And here's the formula to make it work for you. Right. So I think, I think there are two prevailing cultural patterns at play here that are in conflict with one another. And one of them is computers allow us to standardize everything, and find the one best way and everybody's going to use one syllabus, and everybody's going to use one social media site, and everyone's going to use AI to write identical emails to each other, versus Why can't I do it my way, right? Why can't I create what I need to thrive? Or why can't I produce the things that I want in the way that I want? That suits my own? My own purposes, right. And, and I think this idea of, of creating size inclusive patterns is part of that, right? It's like because before, you would just think like, oh, they don't make this pattern, you know, bigger than a 12, or 14 or a 16. Like you either had to become an expert and figure out how to make your own pattern based on patterns or expand patterns. And yeah, I guess my body is wrong. Yes, exactly. Which will
integrate. And shockingly, it may shock you to learn. And this is it's my turn to pull an AMI here, make sure you learn that one of the reasons patterns are like big big three, but patterns generally because the big three set the bone are the way they are is racism. Because surprise me, everyone who was you know, they made their patterns based on measurements of 1000s of of average, white middle to upper class women.
I see the scare quotes you put with your fingers. Yes, I'm sorry. This
is a podcast average. Yes. And so there's there's a movement, not only to be size, inclusive, but more also different body type inclusive, right? Where, you know, there's, I follow a lot of posts on Instagram. And a lot of it is focusing on getting patterns to better fit black women's bodies, right? Because the was not what they were designed for. And any kinds of different bodies differently abled and that's another thing a lot of people are making more oh god the words left me but for accessible clothing, or adapt? Yeah. Adapted adapted. There you go. Yes. There we go. That's the word. And, and again, it's all of this to think about and I think that word an interesting moment too. Right. Where I don't know and I thought of you about this too. So did you see the absolutely terrible editorial opinion piece and Inside Higher Ed? That was basically like we really want to be inclusive we have to stop giving so many accommodations.
Oh my god. What? Yeah. What? Yeah, there's a reason I've stopped reading inside Yeah, well, that seems you've just named it
Yeah, no, no. That and the terrible site redesign which is apparently a complete accessibility nightmare as well. Oh, they
just need to stop giving accommodations for it
yeah, they just apparently if you if you're low low vision or anything like that then you're Sol when it comes to inside Ira now which makes me sad. Because they gave me my break. But you know, yeah. But anyways, yeah, so the so there's again there's this push back you know inevitable push back where we're everything is back to normal and I don't know why I have to give all of these accommodations anymore to all of my students. You know, Karen, Karen cos is all show this ship this in the show notes because she wrote an editorial back to Inside Higher Ed which they published her letter to the editor as they're corrected again. She was like this shit.
And basically, excuse me what?
Yeah, well, that that was how I found out about it because she was going Excuse me What on social media and she was like, I'm gonna link to this nonsense, right. And then I had to go on to down because I was like, what nonsense. Drama. Yeah, smell drama, and I will locate it and you would never and again the title is so like, thinking about accessibility and inclusivity in anything like that. Which is it? I can't find it. Then I had to click on I'd be like, ooh, your I hate you. Thank
you, please. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, but yeah, and I mean, it's so it's we're we're back in we're back in session. I'm back in back in the swing of things and all of these everyone is losing their freakin mind over
AI. Oh, hey, guess what? That's what I'm signed up to like go to a workshop on this next week in my department, a last minute panicky workshop because I guess nobody gave it a thought until it was time to put their syllabuses together. Or something. I don't know. I will see how it's gonna go. I'm a bit afraid that I'm just going to sit there and be enraged. Trouble time. Oh, yeah,
no, probably. But yeah, like I keep saying this now which is which is just like the actual threat of a AI generative AI is far outstripped by our collective panic about it.
Well, questions remain?
Yes.
But I think panicking about the wrong things.
Yes. Well, yes, the panic that like I'm telling this to faculty, right like your panic about academic integrity or my students are just going to have the use AI to write all of my assignments. Is not the panic you should be having. Absolutely not No, right? Like, that is like our reaction in their panic about that far outstrips the threat, or I always like, students aren't dumb, especially at an institution. Not even like an institution like ours. I'm not saying it happens everywhere. It's like, students were paying paper mills to write papers. And they're gonna figure it out real quick that the AI does not even come close to a paper mill quality, which is even that greater quality to begin with, and they will go back to paying the paper bills,
or they'll write their own cynical take I have ever heard in my life. They can cheat more effectively using a different service. Yeah,
yes. And those who are very committed to cheating are going to do that.
mean, people who cheat are usually not that committed to anything, which is why they wind up in a scenario where they have to cheat on stuff.
Well, that's That's exactly it. But I mean, like, if this is our biggest fear, is that we're gonna get the students will have machines write their papers for them. Um, I hate to tell you this, but students have been having other people write their essays. It's true, as soon as we introduced essays as a means of assessment. Like, but no one seemed to care about that until it was like a machine doing it. I don't know. I just I'm, it is really cynical tape. But I'm getting off gotten so cynical about it now, because it's like, it won't stop hallucinating. They're all going bankrupt.
You want to feel a bit better. Yeah. Good story. Yeah. So my piece got published my piece on AI and writing journal composition studies, because you know, now I say don't write unless somebody invites me to, and they invited me to and I wrote this piece on AI and writing where I fed Chuck GPT, the prompt AI in writing after I had already responded to the prompt, and then I compared what versus what I wrote, and I think I can quit my job happy now because I managed to cite the Beastie Boys twice in one paper and actually put in a beastie boy song. So I'm like, take that Chad GPT. So that was fun. And but the best thing about it was, a couple weeks after it got published, I got an email out of the blue from a 20 year old undergraduate student in New Zealand, who was researching for a paper that he had to write in a writing course. And he found my piece in composition studies. And he was like, my own delight, grabbed me by the back of the neck, dragged me over to a chair and made me write this email to you. It was a fan letter. And it was like it was like, it was like, I was like, did you ever get a fan letter from a 20 year old undergraduate about an academic paper you wrote? Right?
No. When you went academia,
I went academia because the whole point of the paper that I was trying to make, in addition to hyping the Beastie Boys 1989 album, Paul's boutique, was that writing is an act of connection in between humans, and it should feel like a connection. And this kid felt so connected to me that he looked at my email address and emailed me and I was like, Max, my friend, you are proof of concept, right? Because it worked. Right? It was a piece of writing. I did, so that other people would read it and understand a little bit what I think. And then someone read it just was so agitated in a good way by it. Yeah, that they wanted to connect with me further. And I'm like, Well, that's the motherfucking scholarly conversation we're supposed to be having.
Yes. Right. That's your impact factor right there.
That's my impact factor. I'm like I give literally not one hoot write about anything else other than there was a reader. Yeah, to whom this piece I didn't realize was pitched like it's compass. It's mostly for teachers of writing right now. Like this underground found it and he read it and he like cared enough to actually go to the bother of writing me an email and I was just like, that revived my faith in humanity a little bit. Oh, was like revives yours a little bit too. Like I honestly do not care if anybody thinks my writing is important. I do care if anybody gets so excited by something that I wrote that they have to email me about it. Right? Yeah, that's
a good way not angry sighted
in a good way. Yeah. Yeah, no, those they write me about when I'm on the radio of like, I don't know if you know, but you have this vocal tic, and it's very annoying. And I'm like, I don't know if you know, it's not a you're not in business.
Yeah, I don't know, you know, that I don't actually care. Right, or whatever
it is. But that yeah, that was like, just just something nice. I was like, The Kids Are All Right. Yeah.
No, and that's, and that's what I think too, right. Like, for the like, I'm being cynical about the small handful of students who I was always cynical about. Sure. You know, like, I you know, but mostly, again, mostly, it's fine. And, you know, I worked and it was it was working with this longtime faculty member, who is still teaching at like, in her 70s sort of thing. And, you know, made it through the pandemic made it through learning all that new technology, and it's just really wants to make sure that they understand AI and all of that kind of stuff. And so that was the one that I was sort of telling you, we're, you know, we're okay, when shared about how, you know, women of color specifically black woman warned us about all this. Do you see that Rolling Stone Center, the Rolling Stone article? Hope she cites it and feels like a very cool six year old. Another very Gen X thing here recently Rolling Stone.
Yeah, that's right. I read for the articles. Now I read
over the articles know, if they're gonna do articles about like women warning about AI 15 years ago? Yeah, I'm gonna read that twice on Monday. So, so, like, what is the any of this have to do with your bowtie purchase? We can ping real quick between things. Again,
I'm not sure. I mean, I've been thinking a lot about neuro divergence this summer, as I tried to embark on my summer Oh, fuck around time, remember? Yes. And, and scratch time, and just trying to follow my interests, like I'm dosing for ideas, wherever my, my interest leaves me. So I've done a lot of kind of reading in the spaces around attention and cognition. And all these sorts of things. And, and I've become just a little bit more confident in my thinking that when we say that we think differently, we do, right, and thinking differently, requires a different process. When you work, right, it requires a different process, when you walk around, you know, in the world, that when you have a kind of fundamental difference, even if that difference lives between your own two years, that it is it needs to be accommodated, self accommodated, sometimes, in the ways that that you do work, I think I was telling you been seeing posters around my building for research into attention, right. So in the psychology department, they're doing these research, a lot of research studies that having to do with the nature of attention, and, and they sound really interesting. And they've got all these little pull tabs at the bottom where you can try to sign up for this study. And in the fine print, it says like, if you have been diagnosed with ADHD, you are excluded from the study. Right? And I was like, Well, the thing is, like people with ADHD also have attention, right? That is this way of, of shrinking the research pool so that you get people who are pretty homogenous on the way in and then you're gonna say something overarching about the nature of attention and how to manage it. And it's going to completely exclude from the get go a bunch of people whose disorder has the name attention in it, right. And that there's a way that that we tend to study people's normal brains and problems with attention, and give them lots of life tips like which we tend to read in books about how to be more productive, or how to organize yourself. This is all based, like we've done the research or like, We consulted the research, and it's all research on people whose brains are normal, right, even though five to 10% of people probably have have ADHD, and they're looking for these kinds of books. And we're not even in the studies and the kinds of studies that are done on our people and the neurodivergent people begin from a frame of pathology, right? Yeah. Like, let's find out what's wrong with these people and what they can do to try to be able to use the books that have been written for normal people about how to manage their attention, right? There's there's nothing that that invites somebody with a particularly neurodivergent cognitive style that, you know, there are things that we mostly have in common with each other. Like, we have great focus, but we often don't get to choose where it's going to go. We don't get to say this It's important I should do this now in our brains like, yes, sir, right away, sir. Usually we're like, oh, shiny thing, I will do it for 12 hours and forget to eat, right. So it's not having attention, it's manage managing attention. And there's really nothing right in the psychological literature about how to work with, right, that cognitive style, rather than label it as some kind of dysfunction that must be treated first. So that then we can maximize our normal attention style, we're not going to have that, right. We're just not. And so a lot of the topics we've talked about on this podcast having to do with like, our weird work habits, or the neurodivergent hangover, or like how we kind of love crunch time, or how I usually have all the ideas first, and then do the research second, and I produce an outline after I finished writing something not before I finished writing something or same. Yeah, right, our tendency to be divergent, rather than convergent thinkers that we've been getting in our own way, when we tried to tell ourselves that we have to produce work in the same way that other people with completely different cognitive styles do. Right? And so this summer, I was like, that's fine. I'm going to do what I want this summer. And I'm going to let myself go where my attention puts me. And I'm going to write the way I want to write and get to research the way I want to research and Lee Are you are you sitting down?
Did you finish something? I mean, not that I know you finished the composition one. But
did I finish something? Lee? I finished three things. Oh,
my God, I want like the background noise of like, massive applause require editing. No, I'm gonna do
additionally to that. So I got one piece written from scratch through peer review, revised and actually published and out in the world. I got one piece finished through peer review, through revisions in press. And I got another thing finished through review. And in press. Oh, yes. And some of them. My husband was reading for me, like as I get stuck, and I'm like, I need somebody to read this because I need somebody to talk about this with because I can't tie the ends together. Yeah. And he was like reading this one piece I did on on ethos, writing style and ethos and and he was like, Oh my God, there's so many footnotes in here. They're not going to let you keep these batshit crazy footnotes. I'm like, genuine and specific. You're thinking oh, but he pointed to one that's like, probably it's a 200 word footnote, David Foster Wallace style. He's like, This is unbelievable. I'm like, Doc got through the first round and review. They liked it. Right?
Have you met an academic in the humanities, like we love?
Like recive, elusive I have like a Taylor Swift heading, that it's like, it's me. Hi, I'm the problem. It's me. And then it has a footnote and says, gives the Taylor Swift reference and then says, it must be exhausting always reading through my lengthy footnotes, which you can sing with the song if you want to. And I'm smiling as I'm telling you this. And I was smiling as I was writing it, and it's deeply academic work, everything I did this summer, but it's also funny, right? It has Taylor Swift lyrics in it. It has like Chopin's fingering charts in it, it has like Beastie Boys lyrics in it. And what I really delighted in was letting myself off the leash to do serious academic arguments that like, are sort of like the fugue structure of knives out Glass Onion, right? Yes. Where it like, it's got layers. It's replaying in the structure, what the purpose is in the argument in the words, right, which so it's a lot cleverer than it looks. And it was really hard to put them together. But it was chuckling the whole time that I was doing it. And I just let myself, right, like myself, I got re things finished, one of them is published, and two of them are impressed. And I gave us keynote. So that was a lot. And I've been invited to do another lecture in Oregon, they're invited me to and a colleague and I are doing a presentation for a writing center in Nevada in November, these are all just invitations. Now based on I let myself work the way I want to work. And I stopped trying to impress others with my capacity to conform to the expected norms, and I stopped letting my feelings get hurt when I did not get the kinds of recognition that you would get if you met the expected norms, because I would much rather get fan letters from undergraduates, right? And have people DMing me on Twitter to say like your piece solved the whole problem in my dissertation, because now I can just quote you and my committee gets off my back about my method, right? That's what I want and get it. So the methods we've been pitching here, dear listeners, Shit worked. Worked. Shit worked.
Wow, this meaty book might be fun.
No, I think I'm not a book person. It's
awesome. Yeah, no, I mean, that's
Yeah, I think I'm giving up. I think I'm just gonna like piece those out. Or maybe I'll just like put them somewhere as free downloads Do you know? Because I it's too lonely to write a book a whole book by myself like I love to get pieces out in the world. Yeah. And I like when somebody invites me because then I already have an editor who's going to be emailing me like how's it going? Right? Maybe I'm just not a book person, I can type a book worth of stuff in a month probably but I just
brain in a month you probably do it in a week if you really, really if you're, if I heard if our ADHD attention decided,
yeah, I just don't enjoy that super long process of sitting there by myself and then having to send 250 pages to a bunch of reviewers and then dealing with the feedback. I'm gonna it's too much. I can't Yeah, I can't process it. But I can apparently bang out 19,000 words of finished prose and a keynote in one summer. So
good. It didn't hurt. No, it sounds like you had fun doing it.
I had fun doing it.
Yeah. And I mean, Yay, I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of
you. Finally, finish something? Well,
it's also a lot of us, like, as you pointed out on learning, like I had that moment. Like, when I moved into an alt AQ, for lack of a better term, I guess everybody hates all dark now. But whatever. When I moved into staff position and moved away from being an academic, that was kind of my, I didn't even know I had ADHD at that point. But that was my sort of liberatory moment where I was like, Oh, I can stop trying to be that. Yeah. And just be whatever I want. I actually have I have something coming out that about that process. Yeah. Ya know, and it was, it was, it was, again, it was one of those. I this was one of the things, the few things that I wrote last year, right a lot last year, or, Yes, it was last year, and even the beginning of this year, because of all the shit. And, and in the piece, I literally said kind of like what you said, I'll only write if I'm invited to or if like, I know, the editors, and it speaks to me. And and actually, I was I even sent in the piece right now I'm in a period where I'm not writing very much. And that's okay. And you know, and at one point, I'll be inspired to do things again. And that's fine, too. And the editor, and because I was writing about this, the editor is like thank you for making us what are the things you're writing for? I was like, yeah, no, no. And so the same sort of thing where I, I talked about the exact process, but it was more about letting go of an identity. Yeah. And, and just being like, I can write however I want. So yeah, I turned into an ADHD writer, and that sort of sense. But yeah, you know, it was kind of like I can, like we've talked about before I can bang out 750,000 word blog posts until the cows come home. Like, that's not like it is. Because it's, it's, it fits my style, it fits the attention span, it fits the like, you know, it's either 1000 words, or it's 5000 words, but it's four or 7000 words, but there's no in between, right, like, I don't know how to do with 3000. And, or whatever. And, and it was just it really was and I talked about that and encourage in the piece that's going to be coming out soon is exactly that where it's like you said, like, write how you want to write write about what you want to write about. And again, it's more advice for because it's about transitioning out of academia. And always the question is, oh, can I still write? And it's like, yeah, but do you really want to? Yeah, I think that is also a question where it's just like, Are you like what you just said about like, you're not a book writer? Yeah. Right. And it's like, maybe, maybe it's not writing maybe it's podcasting. Maybe it's, it's, you know, creating a substance like, but but like we always, particularly again, in the humanities, we think that so much of our identity is built up in the fact that we can write Yeah, that doesn't mean we like it.
I've loved it though. Oh, I love
it too. But like there's like it's also okay to like, say I'm not a writer and I think with the expansion of how we are starting to rethink what scholarship is and all that kind of stuff. Like, again, the work that oh, gosh, what's Hannah's last name? Who does the podcasting?
Oh my god, Hannah McGregor.
Yeah, Hannah McGregor. I thought it was McGregor but I was like blanking on that
Do you go blank? When you ask me? I'm like, do I know? Yeah, no,
no, no McGregor. And we've made I think we've named Robert before. But she's doing me she's great. Yeah, yeah, she's doing amazing work in getting podcasts, recognize the scholarly activities and coming up with a peer review format for podcasts and working with Wilfrid Laurier University Press, to have this kind of legitimacy for it's like, doesn't always have to be written. Right. And there's more particularly in film studies, and then the visual arts where they're doing video essays. Yep. Right. And more interactive stuff. And that's, again, all of that a scholarship, but all of that is also open to you.
Yeah, I think was something I was exploring and one of the pieces that I actually got finished Was this the slippage like so the the phrase, I am an academic, right. So can be used, like in an adjective form, like academic writing. So I am an academic, like, in the same sense that I am a pianist, right? Like, it is a core part of my identity. For me, like, you know, something important about who I am as a person when I tell you, I'm an academic, but also I am an academic in the sense that my neighbor is a public health nurse right, it is my job, it is an occupation, right. And so that we often I think, neurodivergent people particularly or anyone prey to imposter phenomenon is they see a disjuncture, in between their self identity, right, whatever it happens to be as an academic or a soloist, or a human being, or you know, someone in their 40s. And the role they're meant to inhabit, because those are often conflated, right, the identity of the role and the identity of the self, and you're like I am this type of person, and I occupy this type of role. But this type of role necessitates being a certain type of person that I am not writing, using the personal pronoun, or slavish ly doing a literature review that cites everybody from Aristotle forward before, you're allowed to put one of your own ideas in or, you know, assigning or writing formal lectures for every class that you're going to teach, right? So we often make ourselves miserable. finding ourselves in the in between space in between who we know ourselves to be. And what we imagine a desired identity requires us to be right. So people don't try to turn themselves into an academic rights in the correct way if they don't actually want to be an academic, right. And the reason I think we make that mistake of thinking that and this could be for anything like a primary school teacher or a professional tap dancer, or like, whatever, right, just to say, like, I don't do it the way I think that this, this category is exemplified, right? I am not the paradigmatic example of a tap dancer, right? So therefore, I shouldn't I have a friend who's a very good tap dancer, and she's telling me about when she was younger, and all the competition kids used to get mad at her because she was so so good at tap dancing while being fat. Right? And they had this idea that to get really good dancer, right? You you had to look a certain way. And I was like, they're just mad because they're hangry. Yeah. And wet toilet paper for lunch. They're like, don't take it personally. But like, so this just
their teachers, their teachers fat shaming them, probably too, right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's, that's a learned
attitude. Yeah. So like in the academy, too, when you get enough comments from reviewer to have, like, there are too many jokes in this paper, right? Yeah, you think, Oh, I am not a proper academic, right. But where I'm getting to now or like, and you can apply this, our listeners can apply this to any occupational role you have, you're not like a heavy machinery mechanic or you're, you're not like a professional artist, or you're not a retail worker or you're not, I don't know, a human resources manager, because you have an idea in your head of what that person should be. It's listed in the job description, but also there are usually cultures around that have like what is the cliched or stereotyped version? Right? Like think about that old? Hashtag. I look like a professor, right? Because when you Googled for stock images of a professor, you got like some late middle aged white dude with frizzy hair, big glasses, elbow patches, tweed jacket, right. And that was like, oh, so if I'm not that, that I'm not the right kind of professor. And I think we sort of know that physical embodiment part. But like, our cognitive styles, yes, are different too, right? And so where I'm trying to get to now, like 19 years, God helped me into this career, since July 2004. Is to be like, I was hired and tenured as an academic. I have academic credentials. I do academic work. I don't need somebody to tell me whether or not I am sufficiently academic. I am. Right. I just Yeah. So when I write for an academic publication, that's academic writing, right? People can say I don't like your style, but they can't say this is not scholarship, because it is is I am a scholar. And I researched it and I wrote it. This is what this academic produces as academic writing for academic publication and people have the right to dislike it. Right? But I am beyond the point now where I'm going to accept that people are like This is not academic, because like, Bitch, please look at me. I'm an academic. If I wrote it's academic, right? It's not my laundry list. But like when I'm writing for an academic audience, it is by definition academic writing. Yeah, it just is, right. I'm thinking of Hannah Gadsby here, right? Because I wrote about her a little bit this summer in some of these pieces. How when people got mad at her, after Nannette, what they didn't say was, I don't like your jokes. You're a lousy comedian. What they said is, this is not even comedy, you are not a comedian, right? So they tried to exclude her from the category, right, which is a kind of existential gaslighting. And that's the kind of thing I think we're all prey to as neurodivergent people, it's not that people don't like the way that we're doing something is that they say that we have missed the mark. By so far, we have no right to claim the category. Yeah, right. You can't do bad comedy, you can't do innovative comedy, you can't work against the structures of comedy using comedy. If people really want to critique you, they will say that you do not even count in the category of comedy, and no one has in comedy has to pay attention to you as an instance of comedy, right? And it's very easy for neurodivergent people who've been told they're wrong about stuff their whole lives when somebody says like, oh, you know, you're a baker, but like, most people get up at five in the morning to start baking and like you don't so that's, you know, a real,
why don't you take out all your ingredients first and lay them all out and have everything measured in perfect? Bake for yourself. That's what real bakers would do
would do this even like, like eat this fucking cake, man. Is it not delicious than Shut up? Right? So if we go back to like, a kind of results only work environment kind of thinking there, we would sort of say like, why does it matter to people how you do it, right? Watch the diversity of human endeavor, not just by checking the quality of the product by trying to ensure that everyone follows exactly the same process to get there. And why? Yeah, why do we have to do that? Right? So my academic writing always finds an audience, I always have people telling me about my writing. And it's always been a huge pain in the ass to get it published. And I was like, Well, I guess I just got lucky this time people actually liked it. But no, like, the structural problem is, often people are trying to gate keep difference, right? Out of whatever environment you happen to be in, you're not going to go out on the baking show. If you don't want to get up early in the morning, you're just not gonna qualify, right? Even if you're a great baker, right? If you don't bake in the right way, they're gonna kick you out. Right? And so similarly, with academic writing, your ideas can be novel, original, well supported by evidence and compellingly framed. But if you use the personal pronoun in too many notes, they're gonna say just reject. Right? Yeah, yeah, but the way that you produce things, and
they may even reject you before they even look at it, because you don't work at the right kind of institution.
That's true. That's true. You write a PhD to submit to this journal, right?
Well, no, I mean, like, just your might be different in Canada, just because it's a flatter sort of system. Like everyone is an are wanting candidate, even when they're not like it's a weird sort of compared to down here in the States cause
much more. It's called the quality we are you guys in the US are not sorry, quality. But yeah.
I mean, on the other hand, I liked how there are different institution types that do actually serve different kinds of students where we have to Yeah, I know, yes. Right. But anyways, so like, um, when my husband was still an academic, they did some really great work looking at pulling data and political results. It was a co authored paper with two of his colleagues when we were at Morehead State. And, you know, this is the it was rejected two seconds after, oh, like, almost two seconds after, and it had the Submission Portal. And basically, they could go in and see the document history. And it was, someone went in open the document, looked at it for one minute, and then sent a rejection. And there's no way that you can read or write a journal article or even the fans. No, no, no. Even though that would be better, because it's more accessible. But anyways, so and so the only answer was, Well, they didn't like that it was coming from faculty at Morehead State. Because
this is the MLA cocktail party. Yeah, people just you say hi to somebody, they look at your nametag and then just walk right past you.
And I had that happened to me when I was at Morehead staff. I literally had that happen to meet an MLA where they were like, hi, or Oh, and then they just like walk off and I was
like, sorry. Oh, are more important to talk to you? Yeah.
And I was just like out and I was I was so fascinating. is to not be offended. You know what I mean? Where I was just like,
oh shit that is just so bald about it that you're like, I'm not even mad. I'm sort of impressed that you're so open.
Yeah. You're so openly disdaining me. Right? That
you think this is a perfectly normal, acceptable behavior you're not even trying to disguise.
Most of the people just kept it in the comments or letters to like my editor when I was on Inside Higher Ed. But you're doing it right my face like,
yeah, it's like, oh, wow, that's next level. Yeah. Know what spa?
Right? Yeah, that is? Yeah.
I'm hoping like, some of the things we can think about in this season are more cheerful things about what happens when you let yourself off the leash, right? What happens when we find once more our intrinsic motivation for things. And when we don't squash that intrinsic motivation by trying to perform any activity in the form that has been handed down to us by neurotypical people, because of the only people who this stuff is mostly pitched, right? Like we talked in our, in our episode about bad advice, or neurodivergent people? It's, it's for neurotypical people, right? Because no one gives us advice other than try to be less disabled, which is not
actually helpful, is to be less disabled.
Right? It's the same same sort of stick is when many women go in for assessment. And they're like, well, you're very depressed and anxious. So we need to get that under control before we test you for ADHD. But you're like, No, you actually think go together, right? Yeah, maybe I'm anxious or depressed, because I have ADHD. And I know I'm not functioning in the world, right? So this idea that, like, you're going to fix your neurodivergent brain, and then you're going to be able to read the seven habits of highly effective people and access its wisdom in the same way that neurotypical people do. That's the book. All right, Lee, maybe we can write a book on like, writing like a neurodivergent person or like good advice for neurodivergent people. Yeah, like,
and I, again, I kind of did that. Two years ago now. And it came out early this year. Time has no meaning. Well, when I did the I did the twine about what it's like to write as somebody who's divergent. Now doesn't necessarily and that's, that's another case where you I'm like, let off the leash, right. And I'm going to do this thing. And, and I'm going to be like, you know, I'm going to be like, there was I gave warnings, right for accessibility and saying, like, they don't listen to it. Yeah, if they will, or Yeah, to mute your computer, there is noise, that there are, you know, and if you just, you don't want it, and there's ways to navigate it, where it's but if you want a true ADHD experience, like, here's everything that you do. Um, and it really was where it was, like, I thought, like, how can I be the most ADHD here? Right? What would be the experience of somebody like that? And it's, it's easy, because I know what it is. And then, but how can I reproduce that? So I did that, again, through sound through randomization, through repetition through all of these kinds of things. I mean, at one point, I read what was on the page. And I took the recording, and I layered it. So every 10 seconds, I started reading, again, sort of thing. And it just comes out as this as this cacophony
word soup. Yeah.
And then and so that was, so it's and, and those are the kinds of things again, it was a very specific prompt of like, what's it like to write with ADHD? And then I was like, Well, let me take you on a side quest, and then take you on another side quest. And then like, if we get through all of the side quests, maybe you'll like understand what it is. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think that that's, and that's something that that people will often ask us in emails and ask us for advice, or the what what would you say? advice would you give to ADHD students? Right? Help them be successful in my class? And I would always say, Well, you know, the leader acts. And now I think what I should say is like, oh, you should change your expectations, then of what? what success looks like in your class? Well, yeah, you can't. I mean, in my in my job, I can't do that. But like, generally, I think that that's, that's kind of that's kind of it right? Like, how do we change our own expectations to be more inclusive? Yeah. And create more opportunities for all your students to be successful? Well, if you
paddle with the current, you're a lot less exhausted than when you're constantly trying to paddle against it. Yes. Right. And the current could be your own sort of neurological tendencies, right? You want to get to the destination and you're like in a boat and you're like, on the river and you're like, No, I have to paddle back to the starting point because I got to the bottom too fast and nobody else is here yet. So I should paddle back up to the starting point. And then Portage this kayak all the way down to the boat. Like, why are we making so much work for ourselves and we could do things differently. And I think sometimes the advice that we do like the people give to neurotypical people, sometimes we already lean too hard into that I think I sent you the meme with the airplane that shot itself down. Did I send you that?
No, I don't think so. But oh, my God
is the greatest thing in the world. So now internet, get ready. A 50 year old is going to describe a meme to you in an audio format. So the photo is of an F. One seven, I think fighter jet. Yeah. And it's in mid air. So it's one of these mid air shots. And then underneath it's like a headline from a newspaper and it says in 1952, I think it's I think if you do somebody's gonna correct us in 1952, the pilot of this plane became the first airmen to shoot his own plane down. Right. I can explain why. But the caption the ADHD mean, caption on top said, when ADHD people tell you they think really fast, this is what they mean. Right? It's called self collision. happened. It's been done three times in three fighter jets, this guy survived, he shot himself down. So he did an ascent. So he's going up. And then he fires his guns. And then he begins a rapid descent, which means that after he shot the bullets, because it was bullets at this time, his plane sped up, because it's going down. He actually got ahead of his of the bullets. Well, that's right, because the bullets were pulled by drag. Right, so the bullets were slowing down. The plane was speeding up so that he thought he'd had a bird strike, but he shot his own plane three times, like three bullets hit him, and it knocked this plane out of the sky. It's called a self collision. Right? It has happened to so much like our Thank you. So it sounds so much like our thinking, right? So when people like try to generate as many ideas as you want, and I'm like, I'm gonna shoot my own brain out of the sky. Yes, what happens? Because I think so fast, that sometimes I have a self collision, right? So like, sometimes when people are like, Oh, I'm really good at that. I'm just gonna really lean into that. And then you have like, 500, stubs of 68 ideas that could be part of your paper that winds up with like, oh, I don't know, 92 citations in it, right? Like, I knew over do it. Right. So I just loved that meme, because it's something that I really like about myself as my capacity to generate a lot of ideas and think really quickly. But I also have to recognize that when other people like, I wish I could do more of that I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm not even started. Let's see how fast I can go. I inevitably shoot my brain clean. Yeah, I would have this and everybody backs away
slowly, like, Oh, yeah. Yay,
that happen here. How did you even we didn't think that was possible. And I'm like, I know because you didn't study us?
Yeah. Well, that.
Yep. Well, around there. Back.
There you go. Nice. Very Jennex view. I don't know if it is, but it just seemed suits it fitting one. So one of my strategies in order not to overshoot myself or overextend myself, because that's the other thing is like shiny, shiny, shiny, shiny, shiny, shiny is it can do more. Yeah, I could do more. And again, I think I've talked about this before, too, but repetition, hey, you know that it's a lot of starts and stops, but rather than starting things now what I've, what I've found is alright, I've got like 12 ideas that I think I'd really like to do. Let's just wait and see which one really keeps coming back and bothers me.
Yes. Right.
And, and so maybe I don't have to start something right now. Right? Maybe I just want to think about like, well, this would be fun, or this would be fun. And, you know, maybe you a couple interlibrary loan, like, you know, I've got a for you know, don't for reasons I have the 100 most important Quebecois Albums of All Time. Shot, which I kind of have a problem with. But like, and then a book of chemic walks Russians just for shits and giggles. But then, you know, but I'm like, looking through that. And I'm like, Well, maybe not maybe I just don't want to not I just, but there's this other thing that's really and it's so that's kind of like I have all of these ideas and things that I want to do. And then I just like, wait and see as that
is sticks, the opposite of what I would tell most of my students and what you would tell most of your students, which is like don't wait till your ideas perfect before you write it down. You're never gonna have any ideas, right? Yeah, just sort of say like, just don't get all books out first. Like just do some brainstorming. See what interests you pursue that? But like no, because like, you and me certainly can get faster than we think we're definitely going to shoot our brain plane down and then we're going to wind up with 6000 words of stuff. observe things that we feel responsibility to continue with. You don't know what we want to do anymore. But I love this idea. It's like this my favorite sign I've ever seen at the airport carousel baggage carousel. It was at Pearson. It's not there anymore to that I loved it. It was like the most Zen thing I've ever seen. It's two signs. The first sign says, All bags look alike. And then the second sign says, bags will return. Which is like don't go jumping over people trying to grab a bag that you think is yours. And it's actually not yours like coffee or shut down the bag. Okay, guys, sorry about that. Yeah, bags look like and yep, bags will return. Right? Just yeah.
Whoa, whoa, whoa,
is what you need there. Right. Other people need to be like, stop filtering, like, take your filter where I'm like, oh, I need a filter. Yeah, exactly. filter, or I'm gonna do too many things at the same time. So I love this idea for you of like, I know, I have 12 ideas, and they're all jostling for space in my brain right now. But if I wait it out? What if they're gonna have their Battle Royale? Yeah, one of them will emerge victorious. And I'm like, Oh, hi, idea. Yeah, let's go hard. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. And then and then. And there's also the viability where it's just like so like, everyone's Well, reasonable be like, Oh, that's this one's hanging around. And then you're just like, it really brain? Like, how much can we really like? Maybe when we're maybe that's a retirement project. Maybe that day after the kids go away to college project. Like, I'll keep you filed away back there. But like, maybe, maybe just like, reading this one out a little bit. Oh, okay. Well, this one, then it's like, Alright, good. We've moved on. And I let myself
forget them. Now. I'm like, You know what? Yeah, but that ideas will return all ideas look equally shiny ideas will return ideas will return. Yeah, I'm not going to run around the house looking for post it notes to write stuff down before I forget it, because I probably I remember enough that I'm overwhelmed by the amount of ideas that I have. It's like, just let the ones go. Yep, you're gonna. Oh, there's
no. Eight. Yes,
those life. But anyhow, we both go. Reasonably lengthy episode with what I think are quite interesting. digressions. Yeah, material that we've somehow managed to weave back into the main fabric. Yeah, we should quit. While we're ahead.
I want to leave with one more thing, because this was a magical discovery, I have to say, I'm going to hold up my hands and no one will be able to see them except for Amy. But what do you notice about your hands
are not chopped? And your nails look good?
Yeah. So my daughter introduced this to me, because of course she did. They are called acupuncture rings. Okay, so they're Mel rings that are like, spiky as the wrong word. But like, and, and I play with that now, rather than picking my fingers. And so while I still have nail clippers at every single station, in my house, I also have one of those rings. So I've got it just just to let you know, usually the worst place for me to pick my fingers is the car. Like when I'm driving, right? Because there's nothing else to do. You're just sitting there and driving. And you can see me right now holding the steering
wheel. Yeah. The hole in the steering wheel and fingers. So
yes, well, that's. So we drove to and from Montreal, and on our way back from lunch on the way to Montreal, I ended up with like, band aids on like four fingers. I'm like, Cassie, there's band aids in of course, the glove box. Because I have a habit of picking my fingers on long car trips. I need band aids. Trauma symptom. Yeah. I mean, you know, you got to do what you got to do. And then while we were in Montreal, my daughter found these and on the trip home, I did not pick my fingers once.
This is a miracle product.
I know. I know. So that's why I wanted to share it because I'm just like, Oh my God. Yeah.
Oh my god. Put in the shownotes.
Yeah, and you can get them. I mean, we got ours. I think. My God, I know we're going long now. But like, What the fuck do they don't sell it into goes chapters now. Oh, seriously?
lawn furniture. Yeah, pajamas. outerwear?
Like makeup. I'm like, What is this? So I asked them actually, what we were actually looking for were hair ties, because it was really hot. My daughter hadn't brought one and they're like, I don't really have hair ties. And I'm like, you have to be fucking getting right. Everything else in here. Yeah. And so we've she found those the acupuncture rings, and of course she's seen them on Tik Tok or whatever. Actually, she's really, you know, and so she's like, Yeah, they're great. And I'm like, can I have fun? Or did she and I started playing with it. Yeah. And I'm like, oh my god, this is the best thing ever. And so
yeah, it's like it's my now get your own. Yeah. Well, she didn't
like the color of it. It wasn't silver. It was a gold one. So it was okay that it was mine. Yeah, no, so acupuncture rings. They are. They are amazing if you are a picker.
Well, I gotta get one because I'm scratching the back of my head right now.
Oh, yeah. No, guys seriously, think usually come in packs of like 10 because they're really easy to lose as well. Sure they are. So hopefully we're back to semi regular schedule barring, you know, life Fingers crossed. Yeah. Knocking wood and so season
six a season of triumphs. Yeah, truces
triumphs and I'm ready riding literally on all the socials. So I'm on blue sky and I'm on Mastodon and and I'm on. I'm still on x, just because most of the hockey writers I follow are still there.
Did you walk on the X site with the stupid logo that reaches me and the accessibility settings on my phone messed up my blue sky so I can't use my code currently changed the accessibility settings so that the blue sky app or something? Oh, dear. It's like it created account. I'll keep you posted. It'll be three years, I'm sure Yeah,
it'll be fine. And of course, you can always use the good old fashioned email you sent out email is old fashioned now. We will read it. I will read it and then I will send it to me. All the things adhd@gmail.com and hope you're back to school. Hope your fall hope your end of summer goes well and I will talk to you soon.
