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The Reflective Lens: Sharpening Your Authentic Self

Amber Watkins47min

Speaker 1

00:00

Amber, hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.

Speaker 2

00:54

Welcome back to another episode of the thoughtful counselor podcast. I am Dr Joey Tapia, and with me today is an incredible human friend, colleague, collaborator, extraordinaire and professional out in the world. Dr Ross spears, He is a licensed professional counselor in Texas, and holds a Doctor of Philosophy in counselor education and supervision from the University of Texas at San Antonio. He's an assistant professor in the department of psychology and counseling at the University of Texas. At Tyler, Ross's research interests include cultural humility, neuro informed therapeutic practices and adult teaching and learning strategies. In his spare time, Ross enjoys participating in CrossFit and spending quality time with family, friends and his cat. Miss Abby. How are you,

Speaker 3

01:40

Russ? I'm actually doing really well. No, I appreciate you having me.

Speaker 2

01:44

Yes, I'm glad you're here with us. This was a unexpected sequence of events, but we are making it happen.

Speaker 3

01:54

Yeah, Joey, do you want to paint paint the viewers a picture of what we've done?

Speaker 2

01:59

Yes. So this podcast episode comes about after two counselor, educators, clinicians, supervisors, researchers, leaders, wanting to hang out, outside of conferences, outside of academia, all of it, and find time to just connect and meet up and have a weekend of fun. And so that is what we did, yeah, and so that's where this episode comes from. It was inspired by this idea that we don't have to we can be present without all the pressures of work and the professional responsibilities that we have, and we can still exist and be humans with each other and still do similar work, and, you know, talk the work stuff, but also get to the fun stuff.

Speaker 3

02:49

Yeah, I think we'll probably get into it. But well, you and I, we started our friendship based off of presenting at a conference. And then even though our relationship or friendship is built on academia and shared qualities, that doesn't mean that it just has to stay there, right? And so, like Joey was talking about to paint a picture of our weekend, like we got to go out in Colorado to the mountains, touch grass, as, I think rocks and rocks, I think, as Gen Z individuals call it, and just spend time in the present, right? I think there's a lot of times where we encourage our clients or students to do that, and sometimes we neglect to do that ourselves.

Speaker 2

03:37

Yeah, and so it was a real commitment to no emails, even though they were coming in no work. As much as it pains us to want to work on a weekend and just catch up on things, it was putting all that aside and just really being present with nature, being present with each other, being present with just what we had planned. And I think sometimes I lose sight of that myself. With my schedule, I do a lot of things, and I can easily put off what I want to do for me, for the sake of someone else, for students, for clients, for family, for another responsibility I have,

Speaker 3

04:20

and I think to validate that, right? We all come from, especially from grad school, this goal oriented or achievement oriented stance, if we're not careful, right? And I think we kind of are conditioned to that mindset of, I need to hit off these certain tasks in this timeframe. And maybe the cognition or thought is, oh, I need to get this done, because other people are relying on me. And then even if you snowball that further, what does it mean for others if I'm not able to hit those deadlines? Or what does it mean from a professional aspect, if I didn't crank out this paper or get it published in a certain time? Do. I think that's great. I think components of that are great. It really pushes our profession forward and helps us understand the nuances of how we assist people in well being. But if we're not careful, and I think this is what we're getting on, it diminishes the work that we need to attend to ourselves, or our ability to show up authentically or meaningfully to these conversations

Speaker 2

05:24

Absolutely, I mean, it just literally goes, I even this weekend feeling like I'm not gonna say sorry for not responding. Yes, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to frame it as like, oh, you know, I was No. It's just I will respond when I'm going to respond at a time in a timely manner, of course, and I have the up, I have I can't get away and step off, step off, disconnect, and nothing's gonna blow up. Everything's gonna be fine, yeah. And I think

Speaker 3

05:55

that's the, like, the self actualization goal. I know there were times when you were saying, like or encouraging me not to engage in or set set boundaries, right for the weekend that, Ross, you flew to Colorado, let's spend some authentic time out in nature. Let's go accidentally fall into the river on the first night, and in me, like having this tug of war mentally, of like, do my students need me? Do I need to send that extra email? Are my clients okay? And then on top of that, like we were just talking about this rumination of, what does it mean for me, or what's the perception others might have if I'm not attending to this in a timely manner. And so even as Counselor Educators, these are still lessons that we're still still learning,

Speaker 2

06:47

right too, absolutely, yeah, and the unapologeticness behind you get to live a life too. You know, we do so much, we are called on to do so much, and we get to live a life too. And this weekend was a nice reminder of that, because again, I can easily look at my schedule be like, oh, I need to plug people in. I need to do this anymore. I need to respond. And, you know, just get back into the busyness of it

Speaker 3

07:19

all. So you're saying you're more refreshed to go back in. Definitely.

Speaker 2

07:23

Do I want more time away? Absolutely, absolutely. Do I love, do I love the freedom that came with not look opening my computer all weekend? Absolutely, that was awesome. Yeah, and the right. It's like we can have Connect. We can have genuine, authentic conversations about work and where we are professionally, but then we can go beyond that. Doesn't have to stay in that realm. And, you know, I think many, what I see, many of my adult clients and many of my students talk about is how hard it is to make friends, and I can, I can get that even on a counselor ed side. You know, I love my colleagues, but we're in such different phases of life that while the connection is nice and conversations may be helpful and support is there, we're just in different places. And so to meet someone who's in a similar space as you and what we can do professional stuff together and also connect as friends like that, to me, is special, and how do you continue to foster that? Like situations like this, like we've been since we've collaborated, been chatting, continuing to stay updated with each other, and then made it intentional to be like, Okay, let's come to Colorado, come visit. Let's make it happen. And we and you did, yeah, and

Speaker 3

08:39

you're here, we've had a really good time. I think this is reminding me of a lot of conversations I have with my students, especially my practicum, or even the students that are in their clinical experience right now. They're juggling and I'm sure a lot of y'all might be able to resonate, whether currently or previously, when you went through this stage of professional development, but the amount of expectations that we juggle, and we're talking from the educator side, but from the clinical side, especially going through internship and practicum, not only are you juggling, like the didactic portions of academia or like the assignments and staying on Top of reading, but now you all have the privilege of having a front row seat into your clients lives, and so that goes beyond this personal sense of responsibility, and kind of broadens or opens up into especially this thought, or I don't want to say fear, but just just thought of like, I have to hold space and responsibility for all these different variables now, on top of like, if you have to, like, work a job, on top of grad school, to pay for bills, if you are a spouse or if you are a parent, or all the other things too, like, I, I. Not to negate that, but things I tell my practicum students too, like, on top of all this, let's bracket that and put it to the side for a second, and we'll come back to it like we're not negating it, but pivoting and looking at ourselves. Because I think often we negate ourselves, especially as like any Graham helpers or, who knows, but we rarely take time to really sit and reflect on what our needs are for the sake of others. 100% Yeah, and if we are not, I would venture to say, if we're not being cognizant of that our work, and I think that the literature says this too, it directly impacts the clients we're serving and the skills and the therapeutic interventions we're bringing to the table, but also from an educator standpoint for us, like, are we displacing our own areas of growth onto our students, or we kind of missing or falling short for from setting them up for success.

Speaker 2

11:06

Yeah, yeah. And naming the real, naming what's what is real that happens to us? And, you know, it's hard to admit, but we were talking about this over the weekend of just how much I pushed myself because I wanted to do it all. I think grad school sets you especially a doctoral program sets you up to do all the things all the time. And I've carried that momentum since I graduated in 2021 and I think as I've a back back then, you know, my early 30s, easy. I think I say easy, I probably still struggle. But you know, it's it got hard. It's become harder for me to sustain everything, to keep the My Plate as full as it has been. And so at the end of the at the end of the semester in this spring, I I realized I have not given any time for me, there's been not. There have been limited opportunities. There have been I haven't this is the first tech I've done, yeah, this entire summer. Oh, and so that for me, it's like, I live here. I should be able to go do that every weekend. But for some reason, I build my schedule up in a way that keeps me limited for the sake of doing everything, then there's pressure to feel like I need to continue to do most things that I have on my plate. And so feeling that opportunity and ability to say, You know what, no, I'm not going to do this. Someone's coming to town. I can't put my stuff away for the weekend. And you helped, because you also had this urge to work, and it helped me push you to not, and then it forced me to tell myself and listen to myself when I was telling

Unknown Speaker

12:52

you not to. It's like this back and forth, yes,

Speaker 2

12:55

because I experienced the, you know, no one wants to say that they feel that the clinical work, or just work in general, is being impacted by everything, right? And it's, you know, we have to realize the state of our world. It's all compounding. It's every I open my phone to read the news, and it's just always something, yes, and it's either education system, it's global politics, it's within the within the US. It's, I mean, at every corner there is something going on, and then at work, something might be going on, and then you have clients have stuff that's going on, and or family that has stuff going on, friends, etc. And it, it becomes a lot, a lot to hold this idea of holding space. And it's interesting. The image that comes to mind is, I always felt, I feel like a nest, right, very attachment oriented, so like a nest, right? That I can create that nest for people, and I can hold that space, but for me, that the thing was falling apart, and it was, it was really loose. And I didn't realize how loose it was until things started to fall through and I wasn't showing up as my full self. And so this, things like this weekend, gave me a lot of up time to just figure out and see okay. I know. I know when. I know when my plate is manageable. I am my best self. I can really show up, I can really listen, and not just, you know, stare, but I can

Speaker 3

14:27

listen. And I think our clients can recognize too, when we're just clocking it in. And there's some to humanize that stance too, like we all have these, like you're saying these external variables that are impacting our ability to show up, and I think that's why we're this conversation might be important or timely in that it really is congruent with with our profession and showing up. Authentically.

Speaker 2

15:02

What has it been like for you this weekend to unplug, to just be more present?

Speaker 3

15:09

Well, you know that? Well, I actually have my laptop in front of me and my planner with all my to do's, and I in transparency, I don't think I leave or go anywhere without my planner, right? Same, and maybe that's another conversation in and of itself, right? Being able to check out, it'd be something else if I had taken that planner on that hike, right? But for me, especially in the great state of Tejas being intentional, coming to Colorado, knowing that it is known for its Hiking and Nature, and the physical energy attached to that, and maybe me being excited to shift my my Energy Tank that I have, instead of towards like all the mental math of splicing out the class or lecture I'm prepping for or my clients presenting concerns, right? I'm refocusing that on completing this task, and maybe it's task oriented too, but of going out and connecting with nature and a really tending and I know that's something I appreciate, and so for me, especially with these reminders of like, hey, Ross, what does it mean for you just to close your laptop for the weekend? Or, I know you're getting these email notifications, but what does it mean for you to put that aside and really promote your well being. And I'll tell you, it was a struggle. I'll tell you, from this full weekend, looking back, I feel much more present in myself and my again, I go back to teaching this week, but hopefully it impacts my ability to connect with my students or relay the content that's required, and my ability to show up more authentically, I think, with what we're talking about, you're also in this idea of reflecting on our needs and kind of bracketing others expectations, or our idea of others expectations, I think we're talking about a sense of humility as well, and coming from an achievement oriented environment, how does this idea of humility, of saying well, and I think selfish humility, I think this is a whole nother conversation, right, of really attending to ourselves, but humility of saying, like, what am I missing? Is there something that I need to attend to in order, again, to show up more authentically? And if that is the case, right? That does not look negatively or have a negative perception tied to that. And in fact, I'd probably argue that it's quite the opposite, right? Because it promotes our ability, again, to show up authentically, to do our best work, and to promote the well being of our clients, the learning of our students, etc. I love

Speaker 2

18:26

that. I think that is it's nice to think about it in that way, because it's true, if I can do this one thing, then I'm set right. It's like, if I can send, if I can just do this really quickly, or whatever it is on my list, I can show up more present. I can be more fully engaged for whatever time is needed, or if I need to set up an out of office, if I need to just if I'm worried about the communication of it all, I can set up things to help make that smoother and easier for me, knowing that someone's emergence, someone's urgency, is not my emergency, and sometimes I think we forget that. And so we, I think you and I are very similar, and we like to be responsive to our students and pretty quick to support them. And sometimes, again, that goes up, that goes that puts our own needs aside. Yeah,

Speaker 3

19:17

you know, as you were talking to I'm wondering, because I think we're in a profession that champions this idea of transparency and humility and perspective taking, oh my gosh, but I wonder, and I guess it depends on the level of comfortability or trust that's been built up. But for me, like in this idea of academia, and not this maybe irrational thought of if I don't achieve this or I don't hit these time timestamps, then this reflects poorly on me as a assistant professor or my position within the profession of counseling, whoever that. Attending person is, like, my chair or my someone higher up in the department of saying, like, this is, this is my dialog that's going on my head. Like, do you mind sitting with me in this and exploring that and and just being transparent? I don't know if that's making sense at

Speaker 2

20:23

all. It is. It makes me think of I, were I? I often tell myself, especially now I've been in counter education for five years, and I've learned that people set their own deadlines, like deadlines are arbitrary. The most stupidest thing I've ever experienced. And so we do it to we do it to our students, right? We set deadlines for grade, for assignments. It's like, yeah, we set those. We came up with those to give me the freedom to be like, You know what, I'm doing everything I can. If I'm going to be late on something, I'm just gonna say, like, I need more time and that's it, because things are to me, deadlines are arbitrary. It's like we have so much more to worry about in this world than a document that you need, that you know I don't I think there's it's hard. I've learned what to give attention to and whatnot. To, yeah, yeah. And what you communicate the transparency part, and what you ask for forgiveness. I think you know, just letting in our field to the transparency piece is so helpful, because we get to bring people in and say, Hey, this is where this what's going on this. We get to model that for, oh my gosh, those around us, for students, and and it's like you might not like the answer, and that doesn't yet change my response. Can

Speaker 3

21:46

you allow them to sit in their own understanding of that, even if it doesn't uncomfortable for them, it's not a reflection totally of you. And I think that contradicts this maybe irrational or negative thought that sometimes we hold about our ability to show up in this achievement stance. It reminds me, oh my gosh. Lat, in the spring semester, I was teaching the skills class, and I had to grade 20 something tape scripts, like 1520 minute tape scripts that's unknown. And so I had set this expectation for myself. PSA, it was super unrealistic, and I had disclosed that to my my students. I'm like, I'm going to get it done by you turned it in Sunday. I'm going to start cranking them out, and I should have them to you by next Friday. That's not realistic.

Unknown Speaker

22:34

That's an incredible achievement.

Speaker 3

22:36

You're able to do that. If I can do that, I need an award, right? But I had set this standard for my students too, and they were expecting it. And if you do the math of 20 minute tape scripts times 20 something students, and then however long it takes me to grade that many pages or provide adequate feedback on that, it's not realistic. And so to circle this all back my conversation, my students and showing up authentically, was saying, Listen, I know it's past that Friday. A good week and a half past that Friday, this is what I'm actually thinking and so and to to help relay like, these are my boundaries. I know what I said was unrealistic. I'm recognizing that now, and here's what I hope to accomplish. And so giving my space and time to be more rational about that whole process, but inviting my students to be a part and collaborate on that, and I think it humanizes the whole experience. But like you said, Joey of modeling that healthy connection aspect, aspect that we're hoping that our clients take, I mean, our students take in to their clients and help encourage, encourage with their clients to go out into their own units or systems and do as well. Yeah, I feel like

Unknown Speaker

24:09

I need to go touch grass. Now

Unknown Speaker

24:11

we need to go back up. It was an eight hour hike,

Unknown Speaker

24:16

eight hour hike that was gorgeous views, but

Unknown Speaker

24:22

that last mile was rough.

Speaker 2

24:28

And yeah, and to me, it's it those these kinds of experiences and are just the thought of, how do we work to make space for having more opportunities to have for embodied presence, like, to really be present with self, to know what's going on, know how to communicate that, yeah, because no one's no one's a mind reader. If anyone hasn't realized that, so sorry. So sorry. No, we're not mind readers. You're. Counselors are not mind readers. Your clients are not mind readers. Your families are not mine. No one is and so to how to really be present with self, to figure out, how do I communicate, what, what I'm needing and or what, what needs to happen so that you can continue to engage fully, yeah,

Unknown Speaker

25:19

oh gosh, it's almost but this idea of self care,

Speaker 2

25:24

like, it's like, that idea, right, that we, that we talk about from day one,

Speaker 3

25:29

we say to do it. It's a whole nother conversation, actually attending to it. But I think from this, this need for structure, like, I know a lot of my a lot of my a lot of my students, including myself, to be honest, when it comes to being present or self care, or you name it, it's this A plus B equals C. And I think in reality, it's more attended to one that self reflection, piece of bracketing and turning inward and saying, What? What am I missing? Or what is that deficit? Oh, well, I don't want to take a deficit lens, but like, what is that missing component that could help me promote myself or others? And I think in order to do that, there needs to be some comfort in sitting with this unknown or ambiguity absolutely otherwise, we might be putting more time and energy into something that's not really going to fill up our cup or energy

Speaker 2

26:32

tank. Yes, how many things have we said yes to that, don't fill our tanks? How many things, how many manuscript projects have we said yesterday, don't pull our tan. Uh huh. Feel, felt sense that we need to do it for the sake of a promotion or a marker on

Unknown Speaker

26:48

a status profession. Uh huh. Who

Speaker 2

26:51

cares? Who cares? I'll say

Unknown Speaker

26:55

that once I get tenure, I can

Speaker 2

26:57

say that now who cares. Our education system's under fire like there's so much happening around us. It's like, I just want to be able to do my job. I want to be able to do what I signed up for,

Speaker 3

27:09

to educate the incoming generation. Counselor, yeah,

Speaker 2

27:14

help them do the good work they want to be doing. Help them grow right and do continue doing my clinical work, do the very thing I signed up for, without all this stuff getting in the way, and we are bombarded with stuff. And so, yeah, stuff, yeah. So who cares? That's what I'm saying. And yet I care so much. But thinking about, thinking about self care embodied, because, to me, the self care piece ties to embodied presence. Sure, if you can find ways to listen in, tune in to self right? It's like I've been this, I've been on this music kick, this k pop kick, this entire weekend, and have been for over a few years now, yes, uh, but to me, it's like, if I can tune in to the various my own body, like, what's the music that's playing that I'm not listening to, right? What are the instruments that are playing? What are the what are the sounds that I'm not listening that I'm not picking up on because I'm so distracted, yeah, because I'm so distracted by this or that and, or I'm so focused on one thing when I'm missing on this gorgeous sound, right that may and, or the sound that needs my full attention and I'm just completely bearing not right now I have all these other things to attune to my

Speaker 3

28:37

unrelated one of my brothers is getting his master's in music conduct. Conducting, and so he'll talk about the music that he's or the music theory. And like theory, the components and crescendos and Dave crescendos. And so like to talk about or to relate to what you're saying, like, what noise or what instrument, although beautiful and although has a purpose, right? What is taking up the most space and what might not be heard, right? And it's not to say that the one making loudest noises doesn't need to be attended to. I think there's a reason why it's loud, yeah, but giving equal attention to the quieter or the softer spoken, because, again, from the different factors that have conditioned this achievement oriented mindset, it's probably that quieter, smaller voice is what Our needs or what we need to attend to.

Speaker 2

29:42

Yeah, right, absolutely. And I think from my one of mine is connection. Mine will always fall to connection at the end of the day, like it's just goodness. I think it's like, it's just, I'm just hardwired, in that way, hardwired for connection, literally, but in. A way that's just, I'm an only child, and so I think that just my desire to just have that felt sense of connection is just always there, sure. And so going out to, like, camp and going on a hike and like all of that is so meaningful. And there are some people who are so incredible, who can do it on their own, who can like, I, I admire them. I would die, not I would be eaten. I'd be murdered. Who knows, I would be attacked by some kind an insect. I don't know. I would be unprepared to handle life at that point, I feel like in connection with somebody. I can handle anything. And so I know my greatest strength is always with people, and so I know when I need to return to center, when I need to feel more present, it is often in the community, in connection and community with others who do similar things to like me, or who don't right, but who I feel a sense of connection to and can relate to and can talk to,

Speaker 3

31:01

yeah, well, I think what you're you're hitting on is, and we've kind of touched on it today, is this authenticity aspect, because you can connect with anyone like you can keep surface level connections. But I think where you find that centralization, if that's even a word, is especially within a community, aspect is someone that's able to attend to the components where maybe you're not able to or to fill in the gaps, or, like from this camping analogy, like, hey, they're able to go start a fire while you attend to the air mattress And the tent exactly right. And so otherwise, there's these, these holes or these gaps that kind of leave you less energized when you do have to go attend to others, right? And so this idea of authenticity with others, authenticity with self,

Unknown Speaker

32:00

so important. And

Speaker 3

32:01

these are all direct things that we encourage again, our students to integrate, our clients to integrate. And so if we are not, oh, I don't mean to be like blunt, but if we're not doing that either,

Speaker 2

32:15

no, that's accurate, yeah, no, you're on target. Keep going, Yeah,

Speaker 3

32:19

we're not doing that ourselves. If we're not doing that, I think again, that has a negative impact on how our students are able to then show up authentically or model that to our clients, but we're also doing a massive disservice. One of the things we say in our counseling program is we're counselors, but we're not your counselors to our students, and part of that is we want to give you the tools necessary to set you up for success. In addition to we will also model within our professional dynamics what it is to be a counselor. And so if we're also not demonstrating that we're not, we're not doing the good work. Yeah,

Speaker 2

33:03

yeah. We're not being good. We're not being the models that we need to be for for them, absolutely, absolutely. And I think about, you know, a lot of us, I think about my mentors, love them to pieces, terrible models for self care, especially from an r1 institution, it's hard, is terrible, it's not good, it's not something to strive for. I don't want that. And yet, it's what it's what I it's what I observed, it's what I saw, it's what I was exposed to, and so it's what I believed had to continue. And I know that's not true anymore, and part so, and it's interesting, it's like looking at the system side of things. Yes, when I enter an institution, I am not only, I am not only given the wonderful opportunity to do the good work I'm doing, unless you're in states like yours, where you might be limited from being able to do certain things, which is ridiculous. Is ridiculous, all another conversation, another conversation and again, which requires opportunities like these, working step away, connect yourself, re evaluate what where you are, because going back into those spaces is tough. It's not easy. And I think about all the things that I built up as things that I thought I had to be in all of these settings, and realizing, for example, this is a very like anecdotal like, my experience everyone gets when we do our annual reviews, and we like work so hard to fill out all these forms to show, like, look how hard I worked this year for the academic year. Yeah, and then for them to give everyone the same percentage. It's like, so why did I just fill out all this paperwork to fight for this percentage so that just any Joe Schmo can get also the same thing? How is that fair? Listener? And yeah, that's the. Institution. That's the academic system. It's stupid. So I have learned where to put my eggs my energy, that's stupid, and back to that nest, where to put my energy right. It's like, I'm not going to put extra effort into something to justify what I do and why I do what I do, as long as I love it. That's all that matters, if someone else sees that, great, if they don't, okay, great. I still have my job. I'm still going to do what I want to do. And yeah,

Speaker 3

35:31

that's not to say that some people just thrive in academia, but what you're saying is that self reflection piece you've done this game of or were told that this achievement aspect was championed, and you fit that narrative, but within that narrative, you were also self reflecting on, is this congruent with what I need. Is this congruent with how I see myself, not only filling up my cup, but also moving into the future. And so you've been intentional with that self reflection, piece of really coming back to that sense of self. And how do you again attend to those different components that are truly congruent

Unknown Speaker

36:23

with you, absolutely. Now, who's interviewing

Unknown Speaker

36:28

you? That's incredible. Listen,

Speaker 2

36:31

no, that's great. That's true. Yes, everything you just said, but what, how does that reflect for you? Like, what? What does that look like for

Speaker 3

36:38

you? Oh, I think I'm so new to this game still, that's still a conversation I'm having with myself. I will tell you from my own reflection. I really enjoy counselor education. I really enjoy clinical work. I thought I was going to do clinical work as my career or as a professional counselor, I soon realized that holding space for 30 plus clients a week, some people that works for me that takes an emotional toll and so kind of negotiating this balance of like clinical work, helping the upcoming generation of counselors, and then also finding a passion and love for empirical research. And so from those kind of three buckets that keeps this equilibrium where I'm not actively burning myself out. And that's, I say, all these three buckets, they're all work related. So I think if there's probably in that, there's probably a fourth bucket, probably not, probably like intentionality, whether that's my sense of community with my family, since the community with my friends, my professional relationships, that really, then again, provides that energy needed to go back to those other three work related buckets. And so to answer your question, it's it's still a negotiation or reflection for me. I'll let you know

Speaker 2

38:21

I can see that. I can see that. Yeah, and it's interesting, right? You they're all work related buckets. You're like forgetting a very important

Speaker 3

38:28

one, except consciously, I had already forgotten this whole conversation we were talking about.

Speaker 2

38:33

But you speak the things you're saying or the things that you were describing, it's it's so easy to just focus and fall back into those patterns of our day to day, the things we always the things we are doing. Like,

Speaker 3

38:47

well, if we're talking about a conditioning standpoint, opera conditioning, there was a positive reward, awards, awards,

Speaker 2

38:56

yes money, awards, recognition, reputation, it's like it's it's the it's the capitalist, it's what we are built when, when we are told to work of all of all the things that we need to achieve and strive for, and At the end, what does it all mean

Speaker 3

39:22

when you find out the answer, it's hard in it, because, like compared to other professions, ours is centralized to the helping of others totally. So there's this reward of when you see your client finally click on something, or when that or a student, your student, right or they are attending to what they need to do in order to show up more authentically to their clients, or clients to their relationships or family dynamics. There's a reward in that, and I think there's something special in all. Our work, but or not, but I'll say at the same time, nice, are we also again, reflecting back and turning to

Speaker 2

40:11

ourselves, yeah, which helps us do the work even better, exactly. And so this conversation hopefully, you know, it's one of those things we hope you joined us to sit with yourself with all of this, and how are you connecting with your own embodied presence? How are you slowing down? How are you being more mindful? How are you being more aware? How are you being more integrated with your body and mind? What are you doing to relieve some of the stress and or dysregulatory things that throw off your system? Yes, to help you be more focused and and more engaged? I will say present and present, being present, yes and so thank you, Russ for sharing in this conversation. I what I like to ask every guest is what's in session and what's out of session. And so the first each to each will be 30 seconds. Oh, no. So the first one is what's in session. This is what it's a hot topic. It's what we should be focusing on. It is what we should be drawn to, what we should make space for, anything related to, account, sinks, revision, research, etc. Yeah. So I'm gonna set a timer for 30 seconds, and you're gonna tell me what's in session. Just like, give me a little head nod when it's past 30 seconds. Oh, I'm just oh, I will tell you these are topics that we can just like, ramble on about. I thought that's what it's for. Oh, okay, are we ready? I think so. It's your 30 seconds to tell me what's in session. Okay, sure enough. Time starts now,

Speaker 3

41:48

okay, something that's in session, and I think it's already a hot topic within the profession, but this shift away from multicultural competence to a stance of cultural humility and not to just tie everything back to what we just talked about, but some of the core components of cultural humility is openness, egolessness, self reflection and critique, perspective, taking other oriented and so I think these are all components, again, that not only help us reflect on our own experiences, but also the individual sitting across from us again, like I said, 30

Speaker 2

42:25

seconds. That's 30 seconds. Okay, there you go. That's great. No, I think you set it up well, and it's this idea, right? All of that doesn't cost a fucking dime. It is just being kind and being thoughtful. I just, I'm like, sitting with everything you said, and I'm like, it doesn't cost anyone anything, but yet it seems like so much work for so many people. I mean, there

Speaker 3

42:50

might be a it's another conversation. What's that cost for us? For what's at risk for us if we work and take this? Ah, yes, especially if we've been conditioned to something for so long. I know.

Unknown Speaker

43:02

Thank you for giving me some returning me to

Unknown Speaker

43:04

Amber. Invite me back for part two.

Speaker 2

43:07

All right, now, here's your 30 seconds to tell me what's out of session. Oh, what's out of session is, what do we need to ignore? What do we need to let go of, remove what do we need to stop doing? What do we need to just deconstruct, let go of all of that. Whatever it is, what is it? Your 32nd starts now.

Speaker 3

43:27

Okay, I think for professionals, regardless of like a professional counselor, counselor, educator, supervisor, there's a sense of ego that I've seen, and this is again, my own interpretation, that could really harm others. And again, this is my own interpretation. But how again, taking the states of egolessness and how it again promotes, I don't know if I'm doing a good way of articulating this with the 32nd timer. No, you're already out of time. Oh, there you go. Help me fill in the blanks out of time.

Speaker 2

44:01

What? You're being so polite about it. I'm asking you what's out of session. Just tell me what we need to stop doing.

Speaker 3

44:10

I think there is an ego with the higher privilege someone has, okay, and I if we are not careful, especially from a profession that champions well being, growth, humility, that directly contradicts our professional tenants, yes, and so we in order to again, if we are promoting this and championing it, we also have to do the hard work 100% otherwise it trickles down and from a like defense mechanism displaces onto the next person.

Speaker 2

44:47

And aren't we seeing a reflection of that in our larger society right now? I mean, it's so hard for you to say that

Unknown Speaker

44:59

from Texas, I. Don't want to

Speaker 2

45:02

get sick. That's fair. But yes, no, I, you know, it goes back to the very same thing, you know, I will, well, I'll comment on this, and then we can, we can call our conversation. We can close our conversation. You know, a student once was like making a comment, how woke our program was. And I was like, interesting. How did one, how did you arrive to this conclusion that negative connotation 100% and it's like, so you're telling me, making space for individuals that you are wanting to help is woke. That understanding others perspectives is woke. That deconstructing your sense of self and in a way that helps you be more introspective, is woke. Then What the Why are we here? Why are you in this program? Right? Why did you sign up for this? And this is for anyone out there. It's like, why are we here? I don't go coach. Go be a coach. Go mental. What do you call it? Life Coach. Go be a life coach. It's, I'm we're here to work with humans. It's the most human thing we can do, to sit with self. We're going to do the hard work exactly. And unfortunately, so many of us want to displace that hard work onto others.

Speaker 3

46:17

And it goes back down to perspective taking or our ability to say or reflect what's coming up for me when I see my clients demographic that is uncomfortable or foreign to me, what is just uncomfortable for me when they start talking about a belief system or background that is unknown to me or different than mine. And I would say that's not a reflection of your client at all, but a reflection of the work that you the clinician, the counselor, educator, the supervisor, needs to do their own work in absolutely

Speaker 2

46:55

well. Thank you, Ross, for this conversation. Thank you. This is awesome. Have a lovely day. Everyone. Stay safe.

Speaker 1

47:07

Thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept, as always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe. You.

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