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Momentum call
Unknown Speaker
00:00Good
Jessica Mehring
00:03looks like zoom has another new feature, collaborate using Zoom docs. Okay, okay. This,
Jessica Abel
00:10this thing of Doc, of of apps, like deciding that you should do everything within that one like, why would everybody want to be in zoom all day on Zoom docs and zoom whiteboard and zoom collaborate and
Jessica Mehring
00:24Well, I'll tell you something.
Jessica Mehring
00:33Very long time I've seen a lot of businesses come and go, and when a software company starts adding features left and right, trying to be everything to everyone, that is a sign they are about to collapse. Oh, yeah, not good. No. It's, it's, yeah, there are two, two signs that I've seen with absolute consistency every single time I've seen a company do this, whether they're my client or not, when they start adding features just left and right, trying to, you know, make it an all in one platform, they're on the verge collapse. The other thing that, without, without fail, they it leads to layoffs and reductions and all the things is when they start focusing on enterprise clients and stop funding their small and medium business software, um,
Jessica Mehring
01:43are either increasing the cost for the consumer or SMB version of their software, or just not really focusing on on well, not focusing on it at all, not launching new features, not fixing the features that are broken. That's a good sign layoffs are coming.
Jessica Abel
02:03Wow. Okay, good to know. Be on the lookout. Hard time believing that Zoom could last at this point. It's like infrastructure at the you know. But who knows?
Jessica Mehring
02:16A lot more people using the Google meet? Yeah,
Jessica Abel
02:20I see people going to Google meet and MS Office one, yeah,
Jessica Mehring
02:24which I hate, both of those. I like zoom so much
Jessica Abel
02:28that's so much easier. Well, we'll see heads up. I guess heads up. Okay, let me hit the record. I
Jessica Abel
02:48All right, hello. This is the momentum system meeting for November, 26 2024 and today is an open session. One thing I wanted to make sure to check on with everybody is project trackers. And Elizabeth, you had a question about that so we can definitely can definitely talk about that, but just make sure everybody's getting those in. You know happening and like, what any questions you might have just let's make sure to talk about those things. Okay, Jennifer's here as well.
Unknown Speaker
03:16Good. So
Jessica Abel
03:23my usual, if you have any questions, like specific questions, and we start with Elizabeth, she posted them in the feed earlier, then feel free to post this. Raise your hand and just, you know, huge time or if not, then what I'll do is I'll go around and we'll just do the something good and something's been a challenge just to kind of get things rolling. So just kind of think about that
Speaker 1
03:50a little bit. But Elizabeth, let's
Jessica Abel
03:54start with your question. I don't know if you saw my reply there the So your question is, it's helpful to see how projects and tasks differ, but not yet tracking with quota tasks. It is a and you say, such a game changer. So my wacky brain just can't rap or believe it fully, it sounds too good. Understandable. Yeah. It honestly. You know, it's not that. I mean, you're still doing tasks and stuff. I mean, I think the difference between using quota tasks and not using quota tasks is profound, because it changes your orientation around with your whatever it is you're doing, whatever it is you're doing does not necessarily creative projects, like if you're thinking about it in terms of, now, I am here, doing this now,
Unknown Speaker
04:51be somewhere else.
Jessica Abel
04:56It gets that. It gets to that mindful presence thing that we are going for, and removes this pressure to finish X on X date. And that is the main way we've learned to finish anything, is by finishing X on X date, and then the, you know, it's ironic and painful right now, four year old son who is deeply resistant to finishing homework and doing assignments like he is not my my daughter, who's 16, almost 17, she'll be 17 in a few weeks. She's just like, I want to get good grades. I'm gonna do the thing, you know, like she has, she's in AP US dream right now, and she has to read two, like,
Unknown Speaker
05:56I don't know, two
Jessica Abel
05:57page, dense chapters of US history textbook every week, and take extensive notes and take quizzes every week, and, you know, all this other stuff. And she is a she's just on it, like she just does that stuff. And now, could she do that when she was a freshman like him? No, but she still felt the internal push to, like, comply and to do the thing, and to saw the value in that, where he's like, I do not see the value in this. He's a questioner, I think not a rebel. Like, he'll do things he wants to do. He's like, me a questioner. Like, this seems dumb. I'm not doing it and what. And I'm in this weird position of being like, you have to do this thing. I don't care if you think it's dumb. You're 14, you don't get to decide do the thing, because if you don't do the thing, you're going to get C's in class, and then, you know, it has like ripple effects through your life. It's like, he can't decide. Now
Jessica Abel
07:00I'll talk. I see you right, but let me just finish my spiel here. You know, like you, his, his answer to what he wants to do with his time is play video games and like, No, that is not like he also writes on his own and does other stuff, and that's awesome. But like he Yeah, it's, it's a weird place to be because I'm like, Yes, it is dumb. It's dumb, but you have to do it anyway. Ri, yes, I can see you dying inside it over there. So please,
Speaker 2
07:32I'm not, Ri, I'm not really. I just, I just feel for your son, because it is dumb, and there isn't actually one path. And my son got all season high school, but then he got into UC Santa Cruz on the basis of his two years of gap, and now he's getting straight cares. So yeah, I
Jessica Abel
07:52mean, there's all kinds of paths, and I'm aware of that. I
Speaker 2
07:55just I know, I know you are. It's hard to hear from
Jessica Abel
08:06and from the inside, also, like it is very hard to hear myself saying this stuff, which is okay, thank
Speaker 2
08:10you. Okay. Thank you for thank you for your space, for that.
Jessica Abel
08:15Yes, thank you. Yes, there are lots of paths. But you know, like, it's so easy for him to, it would be so easy for him to just do the thing. Like it's not that difficult and and he's very capable of it. So, you know, he does not have ADHD, does not have any other, you know, executive function issues. He just doesn't want to do it. And so I would love to live in a world where that's fine, but then he just, you know, we just play video games all the time, so that's not great. Okay? Jennifer, we don't we're not answering specific questions right now. Basically, we're getting into Lisbeth question on the feed
Speaker 3
09:01about quota tasks. What is quota test? So quota,
Jessica Abel
09:09I forget which module it's in. It's in the Act phase, where a quota task is a time bound task, as opposed to an output, outcome based task. So it's just my word for like, a time, time delimited task time. So if once you create a project path, and so you're like, This is the list of things that need to happen in order to get from point A to point B, you can use coded tasks to complete those things, rather than, I'm going to finish x this week, and just say, I'm going to spend an hour, I'm going to spend 230 minutes things. I'm going to spend every single day for three hours, like whatever, whatever works in your life. But then you're just moving through the task list, the order of actions, not even task list, the order of actions to complete the thing in the amount of time
Unknown Speaker
10:02that you have available.
Jessica Abel
10:22But if you define it in an outcome based way, instead of defining it in terms of time, it can bring on a lot of self punishment and a lot of guilt around not hitting various targets. And so this avoids that. And then the other thing is, slip my mind, but it'll be back. There's another thing, let's see. I don't know, it'll come back, but anyway, yes, Lisbeth,
Lisbeth Frølunde
10:50well, I my questions were really about keeping it simple, because I, I think I do have some executive function issues. Because, I mean, for years, I was able to juggle all kinds of projects and renovate homes from the, you know, 18th century and, yeah, take care of kids and family and have a job with a gazillion so
Lisbeth Frølunde
11:22I have the energy, I just don't have the capacity. I've been burnt out from that. So that's one issue that I'm starting to realize. And then, you know, returning to something that I've haven't been practicing as much because I haven't had the time, like returning to my art. So then the question was, how do I keep it so simple that I've been thinking, Okay, I want to make these, this project that has these different steps, so I can see that better now. And I, um, that a quote, a task, and it's good you said time, because here it's like a little ridiculous experiment of making a little artist book. And I have some other weird, little, fun little artist books. I've been like, making little prototypes and making little, yeah, and I have big, I have, like, a gazillion little book prototypes that I'm working on, um, half baked, half finished, distributed all over the place dispersed,
Unknown Speaker
12:28happy.
Lisbeth Frølunde
12:31This is when I looked at my criteria. I was like, Okay, what's the actual criteria? And some kind of not that it's like, happy, happy, but I'm joyfully engaged in doing these weird little books, but I also kind of think they're nonsense in certain way. There's a party that says it's not going to go anywhere, you know, that's really good. I mean, no, I
Jessica Abel
12:50understand that inner dialog. I mean, obviously that's, you know, you it's this outcome based thinking of like, what is this going to turn into is worth anything, right? And there's
Lisbeth Frølunde
13:02a remnant of that for my job, which has been so deadline driven, so even though we work backwards, and here are the milestones, and here are these things for the course or for the whatever, but to actually, like trust these little books and that they have a life of their own, which they seem to have, it just kind of blows my mind. So the idea of like spending, you know, I mean,
Lisbeth Frølunde
13:32hours a week, making silly books, and then just having a good time and being in kindergarten with it, that that would lead somewhere. And I went to this great workshop with this woman who was definitely in the that's what, that's what she does. And it was so, it was so wonderful to meet her. And then I can have all kinds of, you know, fancy plans, but it seemed to me the simplest thing, and I just, it's not to over share, but like, is it just to make these artist books? It's like, that's it.
Unknown Speaker
14:05I'm gonna be just that you can it. I mean, why not? Why can't it?
Lisbeth Frølunde
14:14It's like, Am I allowed to find something that, for some reason or another, feels like it's not encased in all if I leave the ambition of it out, do you know what I'm saying? Then the joy rises, then the joy goes up. Makes
Lisbeth Frølunde
14:42it makes me feel, Oh God, I'm tired before I even start. Yeah, agreed. All these piles of stuff, you know, it's, it's senseless, makes it forget it, right,
Jessica Abel
14:52right? And, and you, you already know the answer to this, like you were telling me the answer this is just engage in the process. And whenever you feel yourself going towards what is this turning into? You go, you know, it'll reveal itself down the road. You know, you're an artist, you know how?
Lisbeth Frølunde
15:12And I know, and I teach this stuff, but man, it's just like the thing that's such a game changer is, I might say one thing, and one want to mentor it, but,
Unknown Speaker
15:24man, I
Lisbeth Frølunde
15:25have trouble doing it now.
Jessica Abel
15:29I mean, it's hard because also, you're a professional, and you are used to having people respond to your work, and, you know, have thoughts about it, and engaging in a professional capacity with this stuff.
Unknown Speaker
15:39I mean, that's
Jessica Abel
15:50one of the more damaging things about MFA programs. And you know, conventional art education is the requirement that every thing you're working on has an artist statement. You always have to have some kind of clear like motivation and reasoning and sort of, you know, theoretical framework for what you're doing. And I know from myself as an artist, and like, you know, the hundreds and hundreds of people I've worked with as artists that mostly artists make stuff because they like making it, it. They just feel it feels like something, and they they want to do that thing. Occasionally, you have somebody who has the mission, and they're like, Oh, this is about this social issue, or this is, yeah, whatever. But the requirement that that is how we think about our work, I think is very damaging to that internal things
Unknown Speaker
16:51that are cool. So this is
Jessica Abel
16:58going to be an ongoing thing for you. I know
Lisbeth Frølunde
17:01deep, it's a deep thing that's coming up in a new version deep root,
Jessica Abel
17:06but I want you to recognize it when it comes up. I want you to hear your should monster ri her up and like the thing, write down the things it's saying and figure out, do you agree or not? You know when these things, like, write it down and go, like, is this true for me, or is this just, is this a self protective, you know, mechanism of some kind that's trying to prevent me from doing this thing right? Right? So the should monster chapter, or the module, has a bunch of stuff about this in the in the reflect phase, a bunch of, I heard your
Lisbeth Frølunde
17:38material from yesterday last week. It was really good. You know, the jack the Japanese have these Yo Kai monsters that, like inhabit everything. They're just
Unknown Speaker
17:49in your kitchen. A
Unknown Speaker
18:01whole set of them. Yeah, yeah. Anyway,
Jessica Abel
18:04so, yeah. So what I want to encourage you to do is is do the first exercise, which is writing down the sheds, like, write down the shows. I know it's painful sometimes to acknowledge that they're there, but when they're in front of you, then you can say, like, as an adult and as a teacher and as a person with life experience, is this a true statement, or is this some kind of loop I'm getting into and some kind of thing where part of me is trying to protect myself, you know, from disappointment or from embarrassment or from whatever? Does that matter when I'm engaging with this art and making artist books, you know, and then you can keep it in front of you. And, like, when it comes up, you go, Oh, I already thought that through. Like, I know the answer to that. And I, you know, and it can help you, kind of, again, get a little
Unknown Speaker
18:53distance, a little tricky chick, kind of, I
Unknown Speaker
19:07something that goes on
Jessica Abel
19:10my perspective as a as a teacher, as an artist, is you absolutely clearly need to be just making books without a thought to where they go. Clearly you know, and and they may go somewhere. At some point, they may become something that is like, there's an end result of it, that's a show and a whatever. But you cannot be thinking about that right now, because you don't know where it's going to go. And if you start thinking about that end, you're going to start closing off possibilities and shutting doors and not finding where it wants to go and where you want to go with it. And maybe you need that, like, listen to what I just said when you your shit monster is like, what's this for? Why are you doing? It's a waste of time. And go, if I start, you know, thinking about end results right now, I'm not going to find the coolest possible version of this, which is only going to happen through open ended collaboration.
Lisbeth Frølunde
20:11I believe that, or I can feel it when I'm in that place, mentally and sometimes with other people and with materials around me, I'm just like, finally I can, like, just be, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jessica Abel
20:25I mean, I talk a lot about this pottery stuff I'm doing, and the reason is that that's the kind of activity is for me, is like, there are a lot of with that. There are a lot of sort of, like, end points and dopamine reinforcing, like, checklists, things like, that's in greenware now I have to glaze it now, whatever, but the there's no end. I'm not going to make a shop. Like, I don't. I'm not becoming a ceramics artist and showing stuff, you know, like, I'm interested in where I go with this. I'm interested in, you know, maybe getting involved in sculpture and doing stuff like that. Like, yeah, but I don't know what it's going to look like or what where it's going to lead me. And that's cool.
Jessica Abel
21:14Never had that with my art. Like, I've been like, you, where every time I'm making like, I'll make a painting. I'm like, That's the cover to my next comic book. Like, everything's utilitarian, and everything illustration background
Lisbeth Frølunde
21:25that I also have, yeah, so it's commercial, you know, it's, yeah, it's
Jessica Abel
21:31not just that. It's commercial, but it's like, this thing can fit into it, slot into this, and then I've taken care of that. You know, there's this kind of real strategic thing about it, not just like exploratory art process, and that's my brain, and also my, you know, sort of my orientation towards, like comics and commercial art as opposed to,
Lisbeth Frølunde
21:53but that's so helpful, because it's, you know, with all this planning, it can seem like we're planning, planning, planning, and It's like it can almost seem like a contradiction that what I and I think you've said it a few times, something along these lines, that we plan so that we have the time for the thing that is our creative engine, so part playground ready, so that we have that time it's carved out, or whatever it is, we do with it to make it good, a good practice.
Jessica Abel
22:23I mean, so much of the planning process I'm teaching you is about saying no and making space, right? So making space for white space, thinking, walking, creating whatever. The only way you get there is by doing some hard decision making and planning around everything else so that it gets out of the way, you know. So otherwise it's like on you all the time, and you don't have room for that the other you know. And the other thing is planning around projects that do have endpoints. You know, Jess has been working on projects that have specific endpoints, not the book so much. I mean, it will have an endpoint, but like, who knows what that's going to be? But like, the, you know, the other project, and, you know, working backwards, creating project path, like, what are the steps, and identifying those things,
Unknown Speaker
23:12like, when you have
Jessica Abel
23:16an out come, you can use that and then still use this planning process to create space, just to use quota tests to follow it along. Yeah, what you're talking about right now is basically an R D process. There is no outcome yet. There may one day be something where you're like, I have it. I have this idea. I want to make this thing. It's gonna I want it to look like this. These are the things I need to do. And then you're going in the creative engine collect phase. What are the pieces I need? Decide? How 
do I do that act? You know, complete it and you're in that cycle. And you can use the project path for that. But like, what you're doing right now is a creative practice, open ended, unending creative practice. Yeah, so forward planning, which means carving out space on a regular basis for this thing. That's what means. Then that's the simplest way to do it. So you're like, well, what's the simplest way to do this? Is to use for planning for this particular track.
+1
do I do that act? You know, complete it and you're in that cycle. And you can use the project path for that. But like, what you're doing right now is a creative practice, open ended, unending creative practice. Yeah, so forward planning, which means carving out space on a regular basis for this thing. That's what means. Then that's the simplest way to do it. So you're like, well, what's the simplest way to do this? Is to use for planning for this particular track. Unknown Speaker
24:28I literally have a star chart.
Jessica Abel
24:31You literally have, like a grid on the wall, which is like Monday through Friday. I'm going to spend, you know, an hour a day, or half an hour a day, or how many times a week, and I get a gold star every time I do it. And what you're doing is I'm spending time with this without any outcome required.
Lisbeth Frølunde
24:48Great. So that's because your art school examples look like that.
Jessica Abel
24:52Well, the art school examples I have are actually more I'm going to open this lesson and show you these different examples that I have in here. But the art school example is outcome based, because they are like, here's the outcome of this project that I need to complete. We're going to work backwards. What are the steps? And then they have their cards, which are like, I'm going to do this step, this step, this step. The thing that happens is they get the underestimating how long things are going to take. Hofstadters law, they end up moving things around. And and then they're very distressed by not hitting their insurance. That's that,
Jessica Abel
25:33out of this open ended practice that you have an outcome based project that you want to complete. I
Lisbeth Frølunde
25:38do, you know I do in some way, yeah, yeah. I do. You
Jessica Abel
25:40have 
one project. I know that that is that, but this other thing that you're doing, developmental kind of thinking and just art making is not that, right? And so I think this is an important distinction to make. So let me, let me share this in terms of your project bracket tracking, like this is the kind of thing. Let's see here. Hang on
+1
one project. I know that that is that, but this other thing that you're doing, developmental kind of thinking and just art making is not that, right? And so I think this is an important distinction to make. So let me, let me share this in terms of your project bracket tracking, like this is the kind of thing. Let's see here. Hang on Unknown Speaker
26:05this here.
Lisbeth Frølunde
26:08Okay, rewards, yeah, those right.
Jessica Abel
26:10Okay, this is, like, for six year olds, that's what she needs. Good.
Lisbeth Frølunde
26:15I'm, I'm only six,
Jessica Abel
26:18so 
this is, this is, like, you know, weak this. I gotta do this. Week this, I gotta do this. Does it change all the time? Yes, but, and that's the flexible part of the flexible containers, like you can move it around, but it's still like, here are the tasks in the order that I need to do them. This, this. Here is a forward planning planner where it's like, I need to do this many things. And you can do it physically. You could do it digitally, like whatever you want to do. I have things that I plan. I both. I have certain projects that are, there's a path, it's deadlines, there's whatever. And I'm using some kind of tracker to, you know, keep tasks on target and whatever. And then I also have practices, things that you know, don't, I don't intend to end spending time with my children, exercising whatever like, and I track those things that I'm paying attention to them. And how do you track them? It's similar to this, but it's digital, okay, you know, it's, it's like a thing where, at the end of the week, you know, I track through the 
week. I like, make a note to myself, and the end of the week, I count up the number of times I did whatever, oh, you know, and I have it in a thing where at the end of the quarter I can go, like, I kept on track. I didn't, you know, like, what should I do to make sure I have more room for this? Because I didn't quite hit my, you know, what I wanted to do with it?
+5
this is, this is, like, you know, weak this. I gotta do this. Week this, I gotta do this. Does it change all the time? Yes, but, and that's the flexible part of the flexible containers, like you can move it around, but it's still like, here are the tasks in the order that I need to do them. This, this. Here is a forward planning planner where it's like, I need to do this many things. And you can do it physically. You could do it digitally, like whatever you want to do. I have things that I plan. I both. I have certain projects that are, there's a path, it's deadlines, there's whatever. And I'm using some kind of tracker to, you know, keep tasks on target and whatever. And then I also have practices, things that you know, don't, I don't intend to end spending time with my children, exercising whatever like, and I track those things that I'm paying attention to them. And how do you track them? It's similar to this, but it's digital, okay, you know, it's, it's like a thing where, at the end of the week, you know, I track through the 
+1
week. I like, make a note to myself, and the end of the week, I count up the number of times I did whatever, oh, you know, and I have it in a thing where at the end of the quarter I can go, like, I kept on track. I didn't, you know, like, what should I do to make sure I have more room for this? Because I didn't quite hit my, you know, what I wanted to do with it? Unknown Speaker
27:32Okay? So
Jessica Abel
27:39that's the main one. That's a this example is the main one. That's just a, you know, repeating thing, but there's also
Unknown Speaker
27:49in here.
Unknown Speaker
27:57This one I'm
Jessica Abel
28:20now I can't remember where I have the the actual
Jessica Abel
28:30notion pages and trackers.
Unknown Speaker
28:48In here.
Unknown Speaker
28:52Project based, oh, sorry,
Jessica Abel
28:59yeah, here we go. So this is a, this is just a Google sheet or Google page, Google doc version of this. So you just write down what you want to be doing, and you just are checking it off. Okay, one page, that's it.
Unknown Speaker
29:19So you
Jessica Abel
29:20can use this exact one, which is in this lesson, or you can make your own. You can print this out and use it on paper. You know you may not have whatever. This is 123456, things you want to be doing every week. This is like one per week. Essentially, you
Unknown Speaker
29:44do this X number times
Jessica Abel
29:45did you achieve that? Maybe as granular as you want, you might want something that's blown out. So it's like, I'm going to do this Monday, Wednesday, Friday or right again, it's like that. The purpose of all of this is when we're paying attention to practices like this, we're more likely to do them when we think ahead about them, like I was saying earlier today about the contingency plan was in doing a lesson brief the idea that when you're thinking ahead about when and where am I going to do this thing, what's it going to be like? What do I need? What are the things that are going to come up for me? Then you're more prepared to actually do it. Yeah, great, yeah. So does that answer the question you were asking? Then it does.
Lisbeth Frølunde
30:30It's good to go back a couple of also, because I was busy last week, I kind of had to carve out and just do my teaching. So it's good to really go back to this the simplest possible way, because I said myself, it's
Lisbeth Frølunde
30:55the end of November. You said end of November, if we want to hand something in, that's now, right? Yeah.
Jessica Abel
31:00I mean, you the that you build this thing this week, like, create it for yourself and start using it by this week, and then you would turn it in by the end of January. Like, show me evidence that you're using
Lisbeth Frølunde
31:13it. Okay, so we, we don't send you anything until January. You don't need to. I
Jessica Abel
31:17mean, I wanted to check with you and see if you need support around making decisions with it which you do. So we talked about it. So basically, what I would expect from you is a piece of paper with check marks on it or something where you're like, I did this this many times. That's what I'm looking for.
Lisbeth Frølunde
31:33Great.
Unknown Speaker
31:34Okay,
Jessica Abel
31:36thanks for the no problem.
Lisbeth Frølunde
31:38I hope we can ignore the rest of you. But yeah, I really needed to rehash that.
Jessica Abel
31:43I think it's so, so important, and it's so it's like one of the hardest things we do is to allow ourselves to have that kind of freedom.
Jessica Abel
32:06Yeah, Jess, do you want to go next?
Jessica Mehring
32:10Sure I don't have anything specific. I feel like I
Unknown Speaker
32:24a person.
Jessica Mehring
32:29Thing that I was, I was trying to move into, and, you know, it's, it's this season, it's really hard with my, my primary business struggling because of what's happening in the tech industry still. So a lot of my energy and focus have been there because that's what makes me money. That's what puts food on the table, is my my consulting firm. So had to really kind of shift gears there. And the coaching thing is just not getting it's not getting the traction that I was hoping it would get, which, you know, it was kind of experimental So,
Jessica Mehring
33:18but it is. I'm definitely feeling that discouragement and the, you know, should I even continue spending my time on this kind of feeling? So I like sat with that last night, and I just, you know, I know when I get to this point where I'm not getting a result, and I really need to assess, do I continue doing this? Have I given it enough time to say yes or no? This is working or not? I know when I get to this point, I need to remind myself why I did it in the first place. You know, kind of come back to my why. So just did some journaling last night and really sat with the why of this and thought about, okay, why? Why coaching? Why? Why is that? Why did I make that choice? Why did I decide to move in that direction with this body of work, and why
Jessica Mehring
34:24the coaching is just a container for for really what I want to do, which is to serve with this vast and varied expertise and experience that I have gathered in my life, I'm a very unique human, like, not to toot my own horn, but I've done a lot of really interesting things, and I have a lot of really, you know, useful knowledge that seems to help people. I wanted to create a container to do that with more more intention, instead of just being the person that people come to for whatever Writing Challenge. I wanted to create something with more intention and coaching seemed like a good container for that. But in the end, it's just a container. You know, the underlying right to
Jessica Mehring
35:30build everything that I've learned, all these hard lessons, all of these skills that I've grown and serve people with them that's still there. So I don't know exactly where that's taking me, other than if coaching is not the right container, I'm okay with that. Maybe there are other containers that could work for this. And, you know, I have, I have a personal brand. I do. It exists because it's me and I put together that website that I'm very proud of. Jessica mehring.com, don't really need to do anything else there that's solid. Me. I just need to spend a little bit more time listening for a while before deciding on, okay, this is the next thing that I'm going to offer. So,
Jessica Mehring
36:35listening, listening and talking to people. Yeah. So that was like the journaling that I did last night. And I also asked myself the question of, Why did I choose the audience that I did, which so the personal brand, the audience that I chose is founders and business leaders, and the reason that I chose that audience initially was because I love to encourage really smart people to put smarts down in writing. Writing is such a powerful medium for thought, for processing, for sharing our expertise, for so many things, writing is such a powerful, powerful tool, and most leaders want to do it in some way, shape or form. If they've built up that that expertise, it actually spills over
Jessica Mehring
37:40all place for me to be. I work with leaders through horizon peak. It's a natural place for me to work, as you know, possibly a coach, but when I really, really let myself be honest last night in my journaling, why I chose that audience is because I know they'll pay and that, I mean, that's that's important. Because I don't know if you guys have ever been in a position where you somebody wants something from you and they're not willing to pay for it, that's a really difficult position to be in, especially and I find it's especially hard when I really want to help someone. I see that if I step in on something for them and really make a difference for them, to
Unknown Speaker
38:54time
Jessica Mehring
38:56it's really, it's really hard for me. I have to really fight the urge to just, you know, give away my services, give away my time, give away my IP for free, because I really want to help, and I don't want to be in that position. I've been in that position too many times. I don't want to be in that position anymore. I want to work with people who who are willing to pay for what I bring to the table. And that's really, I think why I chose the founder audience is because they are willing to pay for certain kinds of help. And, yeah, I just have to kind of be honest with myself about that there's, there's a money component. And when I realized there's a money component of what I'm trying to do, man, it kind of took some of the joy.
Jessica Mehring
39:55I so I'm a big believer in therapy. I love therapy. I think it's a great thing, certainly in certain seasons of life. And I had a therapist once who told me to stop putting money goggles on. Every time I wanted to do something, I'd think about, okay, but how do I make money with that? And she said, You got to take the money goggles off. Take the money goggles off. It's okay to do things just for the joy of it,
Jessica Abel
40:20like, well, and ask yourself too, I think, like, would you want to do this? Is there a way in which you would want to do this work without looking for it to be a revenue producing thing? Because, as you say, you really like to help. But I think the problem is having the feeling exploited. It's not so much that you're doing stuff for yes, no payment, but feeling like people are taking advantage of you. Exactly do it where you feel like you are sailing the ship, but it doesn't necessarily have to do with money. I think is the way into this for you, yeah, does it answer everything? Not but, like, that's, you know, I think that's a start. Like, you know, I have a similar question around the creative focus workshop content, where it's increasingly difficult to sell.
Jessica Mehring
41:27Tough market right now, very
Jessica Abel
41:28tough market right now, and it's never been easy. You know, we're selling something where people need to pay to get help with their creative work. Never been easy. Yeah. So you know, like, it's not really working for me, like, as a business at this point, but it's such, like, I feel so strongly that this is valuable, like, a valuable framework, and like, I've come up with thinking about this and doing this,
Jessica Abel
42:04this to be lost in the world. And honestly, I'm thinking about writing a book, not, you know, like I have a book, but like rewriting my book, or writing a new book to capture this stuff, knowing that it will make me no money, like it will not pay for it, you know, like, it will not pay for the time that it will take to write the thing, but that, you know that, like, I need that for me, like I need that, and I feel like it is of the service to, you know, I know already the book that I have, which is very flawed compared to, like, where I'm at now, has helped so many people make progress, and it's, like, really important to me. So,
Unknown Speaker
42:45you know, that's the kind of
Jessica Abel
42:48I have not focused on that or thought about writing a book for years, because I have, you know, I need to make revenue, and I don't want to feel like I'm just, you know, and the coaching actually has been super helpful in developing actual
Jessica Abel
43:12being open to this continually. But you know, as we were talking about initially with the coaching, I would encourage you to be open to opportunities to turn a conversation with somebody who's asking questions into a sales conversation, even if it's like, I'm piloting this thing, it's gonna be very inexpensive. I just want to work with people to figure out how this works in a curricular way, and not to make an offer and, like, have a whole sales page and do a whole thing, but have, like, the conversations you're having listening you're doing the people you're talking to, and they're like, oh, I want to be doing this and that, you're like, well, listen, I've been working on this thing, on this whole structure for helping people do exactly that. Would you be interested in working with me and just treat it in, like a super MVP kind of way.
Jessica Mehring
44:02Yeah, that that feels good, that feels very natural. Yeah.
Jessica Abel
44:16You have, like, the opt in, you have the whatever. So, like, if you need to, sort of like, if there's a way in which you want to get people channeled into like a group, where you can address them as a group, you can but getting to the point where you're going to be able to offer like a group program, or like a really specific like, don't we're going to get this done. You know that may not happen, or it may not happen for a while, but I do think that there are people who know you already and would benefit and enjoy working with you, yeah,
Jessica Mehring
44:49yeah. I think Yeah. I and honestly, if I do it in, if I do it in the right way, I can, I can offer it either dirt cheap or for free, so I can learn from it. And yeah, just kind of do that, listening and gathering insight as I work through it.
Unknown Speaker
45:13Yeah,
Jessica Abel
45:22I mean, you can, but, like a lot of times, paying something for a program is going to help people focus their minds like it's a real thing. So it's not about revenue producing for you, because it's not a significant, you know, add to your bottom line. But it is like, I am, you were hiring me to do a thing, you know. So there's a clarity of that relationship. So I do think there's value in charging for it regardless.
Unknown Speaker
45:51I Yeah. I mean,
Jessica Abel
45:53there are situations in which you could do it for free, but then I would say you would want to have something where people need to apply to like, yeah, grant or something. There's some other reason why it's like, you know, it's not just like, hey guys want help, you know, but much more structured and much more, you know, offered in that kind of way,
Jessica Mehring
46:11yeah, well, and I think I need to make some decisions around that's be
Jessica Mehring
46:31even just refocusing on, on doing that, on making that offer, the very you know, off the cuff, conversational offer, and maybe moving people into a space like I have a Slack group set up, so I just move people into a Slack group and kind of start working with them through that medium. I'm also sending out emails multiple times a week. I have a sub stack, and I've been doing that consistently, both the emails and the sub stack I've been writing consistently, and is those are both such good containers for specific things. But again, I'm discouraged because it's the same problem I've always had. I have such a tiny audience, and I spend all my time creating content, and so then I have no time left to grow the audience,
Jessica Mehring
47:42engagement. Back, I start feeling like I'm shouting into the void, and it's this, just this cycle. Well,
Jessica Abel
47:52stop making so much content. Like, don't send out multiple emails a week, don't do a sub stack twice a week, or whatever it is. Cut it in half. There's no reason to do as much as you're doing. People don't need that much content, really. I know you have a lot of ideas to share, but reduce it down more actively, reach out to the people who are in your audience, individually, to engage them. You know, like, Hey, I was thinking of you when I wrote this thing, you asked me this question, and here I'm answering it, you know. Let me know what you think. Like, you know, like, go out into the audience of pollutant. Don't treat this like a traffic oriented thing, because it's not. You have a small audience. You know, them probably personally. Like,
Speaker 1
48:36these are people who I have
Jessica Abel
48:51conversations with these people you know, through your sub stock, through email, you know, live, whatever, get them engaged in this process. You want to learn so much more from that. It's gonna be so much more enjoyable. More enjoyable to you. The idea of growing this audience is nice, but is it necessary in order to achieve the goal that you want, which is to be of service with this material, to learn about this material, like do you need to actually be growing this audience in this kind of way? Potentially grow very organically. If you talking to people actively and they're like, oh, you should come on over to the sub stack. It's great to their friends, you know. But the idea that you should just be, like, putting content out, and people should be coming back at you is like,
Jessica Mehring
49:39I know, yeah. And I like, I see that's what's happening, and I know that's what I'm doing. Is I'm just producing pretty this is what I do. I produce. I produce feedback. I don't get engagement. I start getting discouraged, right? So
Jessica Abel
49:56I stopped doing that as of this week. Less producing, yeah, and take a look at the list. Who's on it. Who are people who you would like to write a quick personal email to about something you're going to write over the next few weeks. You know, make yourself a little plan, a networking plan around this. I like that content, and really treat this as a relationship marketing, not a traffic marketing offer, where you're really thinking about, how can I have these one on one conversations around this content and this material and this, you know, thought process, you don't know again, like, it's kind of like Lisbeth was saying earlier. You don't know where that's going to lead. You don't know what it's going to look like. But give it three give it three months, six months, see what these conversations produce. Are they engaging? Do people keep coming back, or does it become, you know, doesn't have its own energy, you know, but, but give it time to build with just the people you have
Jessica Mehring
51:05Yeah, and I think that's it. I think I just need to take the pressure off and just yeah, just give it time have the conversations. Yeah, I'm in the stage of life, where it's I feel really guilty when I am doing anything that does not produce money. I mean, simply put, okay, so this is something I just need to give my myself permission to just do and then and take my time with and see where it goes. And, yeah,
Jessica Abel
51:40this is our again, it's randd, and you have to obviously prioritize your company and your copywriting work, because that's where you are supporting your family, but
Unknown Speaker
51:50it's available.
Jessica Mehring
52:03You're right. Thank you. I needed, I just like, I knew I needed a reorientation. So thank
Unknown Speaker
52:08you. Yeah? Lisbeth,
Lisbeth Frølunde
52:13yeah, it's a question or something I wonder about, because we've become so online, and you know, we also talk about it a lot of the university. I'm in a Communication Studies Department formerly. So what is the difference between online communication and offline? I mean, just a very basic question. And we come so used to online, but a lot of people end up doing this thing about talking about people or target groups, or, you know, clumps of people, groups of people, because when somehow, when you're online, it's like there's a sense of a virtual community out there, or these, you know, readers you have, but we don't, we don't really know much about them through the tracking And the trafficking.
Unknown Speaker
52:58They're actually what they're paying attention
Unknown Speaker
53:04actually doing if they're doing the laundry.
Lisbeth Frølunde
53:08I think when I was wondering, as I heard you saying that you want more feedback, it's like, are you expecting people to do that online, because I would imagine that you would really like, perhaps even just a few opportunities as a way to test it, to go out and be with people and do some more professional outreach. That's
Unknown Speaker
53:32completely, yeah, I'm going
Jessica Abel
53:36to put a pause on this because, pointing out, as she very running out of time. Sorry. They very well off that we are running out of time. So Ri please take take it from here. Yeah, thank
Speaker 2
53:51you. I mean, I it's really good to know all the other stuff that's going on, but it's actually been three weeks since I opened my mouth in this forum, just because I'm trying not to
Speaker 2
54:12project director, which is underway and thoroughly enjoyable to me. I have it in two years I have for my decluttering business. I have, I made myself a fun spreadsheet, and then I don't quite know how to share it. Maybe, maybe I can join from my phone also, because I have, yeah, so I have a spreadsheet that's just like, tasks that are separated into blocks of like, there's the interview task and that's broken down, and then there's the pre launch whatever tasks, and then there's another tab for, like, the people I interview in more detail. So I'm just like, building it out like that, and it's very kind of linear and structured, but then to actually track like the like, I guess it's my version of the gold star thing.
Speaker 2
55:18Go there. I have this collage that I started.
Unknown Speaker
55:26Um, let's
Speaker 2
55:31see. So this is muted, oh, here I am again, wait, wait, oh, I see.
Unknown Speaker
55:41Does that help? No, yeah, sounds fine. Okay,
Speaker 2
55:51right. I need to turn the camera around. Oh, I see it started. Video,
Unknown Speaker
56:01okay, yeah, so
Unknown Speaker
56:02on my wall I have this roll, this roll of paper, and it's like, I have this desk on the floor.
Unknown Speaker
56:09Slow down there. Slow down. Okay.
Speaker 2
56:15Piece of paper here, I'm gonna and then if we zoom in, this kind of central thing, that's the start of the project, okay? And then each of these, each of these arrows, is an interview. Oh, cool. So then I have, I have a little pile of other shapes, and then I have this other project where I'm working on calendars, and I wanted it on the same thing. So I made the calendars. When I work on a calendar, I give it one of those shapes, and then I'm we'll see. If I keep working on it, it will take up the field, and if it, if I drop it, it will just be those shapes in a corner.
Jessica Abel
56:58I think that sounds that looks great. Is it?
Unknown Speaker
57:01Is it fun to work with
Speaker 2
57:03it? Yeah, it's fun. So part of what's going on for me, so I'm just going to quit that now you saw it, unless you want to see it again. No,
Jessica Abel
57:11it's fine. I pinned it so we could see it like just
Unknown Speaker
57:22I just okay,
Speaker 2
57:26distracting for me, yeah, so I'm having this something about the clarity that I'm starting a decluttering business, and the fact it there's something about it, Like I feel clear, happy, excited, not so much pressure, but just like the potential and it's I'm taking steps and I'm doing it really gently and small steps, and not making myself do it, but I'm allowing it, and that has been feeding into my creative life in a way that I haven't experienced in years, like it just so everything is it's like it's keeping a kind of balance for me, even though it's barely a thing, yet the clear intention has allowed for for
Speaker 2
58:33this, and it's not, it's not very time consuming, like once I made the decision To do it, like the little shapes take seconds to draw, and then I just, I make a bunch of them at once, and then I just put them aside until, like, there's actually something to mark, yeah? And then I
Jessica Abel
58:53think that's great. And I love that this, the intentionality around this has been useful and helpful for you. Yeah, and created that space to be able to
Unknown Speaker
59:07take those actions.
Speaker 2
59:09Yeah, it's nice having your structure poured into Oh, I'm just in the interview phase. I'm in the interview collating phase. I don't have to worry about client acquisition. Yet. It'll come like, there'll be a process for that. Writing the offering is not satisfying yet. I just like,
Jessica Mehring
59:27I'm so text,
Unknown Speaker
59:35it's all right, yeah, well, I
Jessica Abel
59:37mean coming up with a value proposition, and, you know, the link, the messaging and so on is very challenging. It's very
Speaker 2
59:43Yeah, and it's just like, I'll just give it time. It'll just take time. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
59:46yeah, good. If you want
Jessica Mehring
59:49to talk through your messaging at any point, I would love that. Okay, cool. Another conversation with you, yeah,
Unknown Speaker
59:56yeah, yeah. I'd be happy to I mean, just, I'm not there yet, yeah,
Jessica Mehring
01:00:00whenever you're ready.
Jessica Abel
01:00:03Yeah, fantastic, awesome. Thank
Unknown Speaker
01:00:04you so much.
Jessica Abel
01:00:07And Jennifer, I'd love to hear from you as well. I want to say before we jump in there. Jennifer, assuming you're still here, thank you are. We have scheduled for next week our quarterly review, quarterly reflection, meeting. But I actually am going to propose that we flip it with the week after, there's going to be an email or whatever that goes out this afternoon, but that we wait two weeks. And so next week we have another open session. We'll start you
Jessica Abel
01:00:45and then we do the quarterly reflection for the 10th thoughts. I mean, I think we have a little more time then to like between things, to kind of do the reflecting part, which is what is sort of assigned ahead, but you'll see there's a, you know, there's a an email and a sort of or a post that's going to go out this afternoon. I guess it's a post showing, like pointing to the lesson in the creative folks workshop for quarterly reflection. So do that over the next two weeks, and we'll do that then. Yeah, Jennifer, so how are things going with you?
Speaker 4
01:01:23I'll check in really quickly. Actually, don't feel like I need a ton of time. So that's it works out well, I created a tracker, I created a quota tasks for myself, and I've been using it, excuse me, since like mid last week. And
Unknown Speaker
01:01:47the tracker they created
Speaker 4
01:01:48last week isn't right, or it's not perfect, but it's giving me a place to start from, and I'm already like iterating it, and I think I might scrap the whole thing and start it like I'm just like iterating the process of the tracker itself, which, of course, then mirrors iteration of the process, the creative process, and so, so, yeah, I and I've had very low capacity, so I've just been doing what I can, but at least I've been doing something and it's on there. It exists. I have check marks, and I have gone for notes for myself. So every day I'm just like leaving myself a little note about, you know, my thoughts about the process, and I'm hoping that if I get some really good rest over this short break later this week, that I'll come back to it feeling a bit renewed and refreshed, and maybe even have some extra time this weekend to to spend on it. So yeah, yeah, feeling okay, feeling pretty good about
Unknown Speaker
01:02:42it. All right, yeah,
Jessica Abel
01:02:49show us next time like what you're like the if you do another one like, and let's talk about why it wasn't working. And
Speaker 4
01:02:57yeah, and it might not. I might stick with what I have and just keep changing it. I'm not sure, but I just myself that ability to kind of just keep playing with it. And,
Jessica Abel
01:03:07yeah, because, I mean, when we come up with something like a first conception of something, it's often not gonna quite work, and there's a lot of tweaking that can happen and to make just make it better. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
01:03:19yeah, yeah,
Unknown Speaker
01:03:25I was just gonna say I'm all set without that.
Jessica Abel
01:03:27Okay, good. So any other
Unknown Speaker
01:03:32comments or questions before we close up for today,
Jessica Abel
01:03:37apologies for my lack of time management today. I
Speaker 3
01:03:43I hearing everyone else's experiences. I get
Unknown Speaker
01:03:53a lot out of
Speaker 4
01:03:57listening, and I really appreciate everyone who shared I do too. Yeah, thanks saying that. I felt like they were
Jessica Abel
01:04:06valuable and universal questions. So
Jessica Mehring
01:04:10absolutely, I would like to let Jennifer and ri go first. Yes, that's I feel like I take up a lot of early time on these calls. And I would like to flip that around a little bit.
Jessica Abel
01:04:21Yes, let's do that. Okay, sounds great. Thanks for being here today. And so next week, we're gonna have another open call, and then we will do our quarterly reflection the week after that on the 10th and yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. Jess, we're gonna meet for a couple minutes after Correct. Oh yes,
Jessica Mehring
01:04:40yes, okay.
Unknown Speaker
01:04:49Time, if you're
Jessica Abel
01:04:50American, have a great holiday.
Speaker 3
01:04:53Thank you. Our I
Jessica Mehring
01:05:13think it needs to record the rest of this for everybody else,
Unknown Speaker
01:05:18exactly,
Jessica Abel
01:05:20actually, I'm going to turn the recording off, and
Unknown Speaker
01:05:28then I'm going to turn the recording back on. I think I can just Remove it. I'm