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T58L ep 026 Bill Cisar | Otter.ai

T58L ep 026 Bill Cisar

Turnkey Team40min

Ron Bockstahler

00:24

Welcome to the show the 1958 lawyer I am your co host Ron Bockstahler.

Kirsten Mayfield

00:32

And I'm Kirsten Mayfield and we have with us today bill Caesar. He's been practicing law for nine years, the first seven he spent as an associate at a boutique firm. And in 2019, he opened his own solo practice where he specializes in small business manners, estate planning, contract and nonprofit formation and governance. one of the cornerstones of his practice is the formation of private foundations and other exempt entities 1023. If that means anything to you listening for charitable and estate planning purposes, we're really excited to have him on today. This is an area of law, never really given much thought to. And that's always when I have favorite guests. So Bill, thank you so much for joining us today.

Bill Caesar

01:15

Thank you, kearson. Thank you, Ron. I'm really excited to be here. It's a it's an area of law that's really near and dear to my heart, too. So I'm excited for this. Awesome.

Kirsten Mayfield

01:27

We're gonna ask the same thing, I'm sure. How did you how did you get into this? How did you get into law and choose this specific area?

Bill Caesar

01:35

That's a great question. So my law for me was kind of a family business matter. My father was an attorney, his law partner who was like an uncle to me, was an attorney, obviously. And they formed their own firm in the 90s. And I went to law school those with the idea that, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to join their practice, which is exactly what I did. I went to law school in Arizona, I received an LLM from Arizona State University and taxation. And I immediately began working for my father's firm in Oak Brook. And their firm was fascinating. Their business model was they managed a small amount of high net worth clients in their estate planning, corporate transactions, and other you know, personal matters. And usually, if not, always managing their estates, these high net worth individuals involved some sort of entity, a charitable entity, or what they call like a family Limited Partnership, which is a non charitable entity that's created for tax planning purposes. So right out of the gate, I had the opportunity to learn how to create a not for profit, how to manage the not for profit, or meetings, things like that, and how to account for a not for profit, its donations, you know, for maybe a wealthy family out to the various charities, it was a really, really good experience. My father's law partner was a tax attorney, he was very brilliant. But you know, as I think most of these types of things go as you get older, you want to you want to make a name for yourself, and you want to, you know, go out on your own. So in 2019, I established my own practice with my thought being in mind is I wanted to make creations of charitable entities and small, you know, small business legal needs available to everyone. You know, and does that mean a lower cost? Yeah, it means a lower cost. But I think it also, it means a little bit more transparency, and dealing with the client a little bit, offering options that might not be available to, you know, lesser established clients. And so in my practice, I've had the opportunity to form numerous foundations and run the governance of an administration of them to date and it's and it's been fantastic.

Kirsten Mayfield

04:03

I love that I love when we ever we get someone on who's like gone in for the little guy. And so my first like thought is what is your billing structure? How did you approach your billing for this kind of clientele?

Bill Caesar

04:17

So it's always going to be a case by case basis, you know, if I have you know, quasi high net worth individual come to me and say, hey, I want to form a charitable entity as part of my estate plan. Usually, the way that works is, you know, they have an estate plan wills and trusts, but they want a certain amount of their money to pour over in their foundation, you know, so their kids can help administer to charitable activities and things like that. If If I have someone like that, and it's in conjunction with, you know, fairly advanced estate plan, I'd say it's a competitive rate. You know, I definitely not big firm rate and I, I always send out proposals with the amounts I intend to charge overall. So Nobody's ever, you know, playing hide the ball. What I do with small businesses, you know, mid level individuals is I work purely on a flat fee. And I learned this from a continuing legal education video I watched on small firm management and it was in Cannes that was in a coalition with I think it was, it's called jtp. For the Chicago Bar Association, where they're creating this billing system where you pay a flat monthly rate, and you get the lawyer services, the lawyer loves it, because they're not chasing down bills. And the client loves it, because, you know, they're, they're paying a flat monthly rate. So if I had somebody who say, wanted to start a community theater organization, they don't they don't have any real estate, they might be renting, they don't have anything. As it stands now, I would take a look them and I'd say, Okay, well, you know, incorporation fees, the fee for actually filing the application for exemption, there's nothing I can do about that. But we can work something out where you pay me say, between, you know, 405 $100 a month until we get this set up. And that usually ends up paying significantly less than most of the competitors. And in creating these entities unless you go, you know, the self help route, where you try to do it yourself.

Ron Bockstahler

06:27

But let's talk a little about, like, who creates a private foundation? I mean, if I'm doing I'm thinking to myself, okay, if I'm a successful business person I'm making anywhere from, you know, safe, I don't know, let's say $300,000 up, I've been doing it for 20 years, I've put away a lot of cash. Maybe it's time for me to create a foundation? And is that the right climbing? Am I on the right track here?

Bill Caesar

06:49

Absolutely, I that usually starts with a pretty in depth conversation about what your goals are, meaning the individual, you just you just named, could absolutely be a fantastic candidate for private foundation, maybe not necessarily for the most efficient tax planning, because you're still going to get a higher tax deduction by giving out right to charity than you would for your own private foundation. But most people who have had some success like that are very interested in legacy planning, meaning I want to create an entity that's going to be tied to my family's name, that's going to be something that, you know, generations of my family can kind of gather around and use not only, you know, as a methodology to teach the younger people how to administer money, and network and things like that, but also, you know, as an excuse to have meetings and get together and have a common goal. So I, you know, I have a lot of meetings with people, you know, who successful people but maybe don't have more money than say, you know, the federal estate tax exemption, who, you know, I make the disclaimer, you know, you could set up a donor advised fund at the bank, or just keep given to the YMCA or the Red Cross, and you're probably going to get a higher deduction. And they say to me, but you know, I want to do something with my kids. And that's, that's the main driver. And I think that's one of the reasons why you see, so many athletes form these things. I mean, obviously, there's going to be tax efficiencies, linked with it. But, you know, after you're done and, you know, done playing sports, you still want to have kind of this name, recognition and purpose, to keep moving forward. And that I have found in my practice, that is the number one driver for individuals.

Ron Bockstahler

08:40

So let's talk about some of the benefits of forming this. But let's break it into a large foundation like the Clinton Foundation compared to a smaller foundation like the Ron box dollar full potential Foundation, what are going to be the pros and cons and what's the benefits, bigger foundations have more benefits. And let's talk to that.

Bill Caesar

08:59

Now. We get to now we get to jump to my soapbox and social justice here. Just like all incidences of income inequality, larger foundations versus smaller funded foundations find themselves by adding heads and the larger foundations have more benefits, and here's why. So, when you create a private foundation, you're entitled to all of the incidences of an operation meaning, you know, salaried employees, you know, certain types of benefits. You know, there's there's money changing hands there. It's strictly regulated as it should be by the federal government. But normally what you'll have is, you know, you'll have family members put on the payroll at very reasonable rates, you know, recorded, you know, to the tee. Well, if you look at a larger Foundation, like the called the Clinton Foundation called any past presidents Foundation, right, they can justify Large executive compensation plans, and larger payrolls and greater transportation costs and private speaking, you know, engagement fees to individuals who might be conflicted out because their organizations are so immense. Whereas, you know, let's say I have a smaller foundation that they want to put their two adult children on the payroll, they're going to have meetings with various charities to figure out which ones need to be donated to and, you know, all the other administrative work, which is real work. Well, that compensation is going to be scrutinized in a manner that probably doesn't meet the level of larger foundations, because larger foundations can say, Well, hey, look at look at this institution we've created, you know, this is like a regular business, and we need this. And that's not to say, you know, the, the big guys, you know, they're gonna fall under the magnifying glass of the of the IRS. But, you know, you still have to be very, very careful. And I think there's a, there's an inequity there, there's an inequity of you know, the smaller foundation that maybe maybe they had to incur $10,000 worth of travel costs in a year. And that seems out of the norm. And maybe, you know, maybe some IRS agent is going to take a look at that and say, I wonder what's going on there. Meanwhile, you look at these larger foundations, and what are their travel expenses going to be? I think that's the overall difference between the two. And again, there's so many other, you know, politically motivated corruptions that you can see with the larger institutions, I mean, you know, and it's been all over the news, you know, the pay to play type situation, or, hey, make a donate massive donation to my private foundation. And, you know, I'll have the State Department give you a favorable ruling or, you know, favorable, favorable treatment. Over here, you know, meanwhile, the smaller Foundation, you know, even thinks about contracting with a business that happens to be connected to one of the directors, you know, me as the attorney is going to start saying, Hey, you got a big problem. So it's, it's, it's very interesting, I do think the IRS recognizes that and they're trying to even the playing field. Obviously, you've seen a lot of private foundations in the news recently on both, you know, regardless of political affiliation, I think that you're going to start seeing a heck of a lot more that

Ron Bockstahler

12:30

I'm amazed at how many there actually are a lot more private foundations than I thought there were.

Bill Caesar

12:35

So if I could speak to that, but the reason why there are so many private foundations is because that is the default designation for a charitable entity. So the way it works is, you're either statutorily created as a charitable entity, meaning, you know, there's an enabling law, usually, it's section like 170 of the Internal Revenue Code. You know, if you're a church or a hospital, you are designated as an exempt organization, that's a public charity. And then you can apply to be a public charity, if the, I think it's 33% of your donor nations are smaller number. In other words, you don't have one large donor, making all the donations to the entity, everything else is a private foundation. And that's why there are so many private foundations, because, you know, it's very difficult to become a public charity, like the Red Cross or the YMCA, you know, whose funding comes in the form of $10 $20 $30 donations, here and there, you know, and that accounts for a specific proportion that they need, or, you know, a lot of people don't want to start a church, they don't want to, they're not going to start a hospital. So the private foundation has become kind of the the main choice as a charitable entity.

Ron Bockstahler

14:04

So let's keep this on the lines of, you know, we're speaking to lawyers who might want to recommend this to their clients, you know, what are some of the tax advantages that they might enjoy?

Bill Caesar

14:14

So for an individual who is significantly wealthy, if you have somebody who is over the federal estate tax exemption, which right now that's $11 million per individual 22 for a couple with the proper election, but it could be going down sooner rather than later. The benefit of a foundation is basically a mechanism whereby you make a charitable gift of the residue of your estate that is in excess of that federal taxation. Right. So let's give an example on numbers to make it easier. Let's say the exemption is 22 million and you pass away with 25 million. Well, you can gift that 3 million In to your private foundation that brings your state out of taxable reach for a state tax purposes, you've funded a foundation, which is, you know, a legacy tool. And it's something that your family can operate moving forward and, you know, work as reasonably compensated employees on obtain certain benefits. And also, you know, it inadvertently helps them grow their own professional networks. So I'd say that's probably the number one tax planning advantage of a private foundation. And this, I think, this goes back to what I said before, you know, I usually have to have the conversation with someone saying, Well, you know, do you want to go with a private foundation? Or do you want to keep making your contributions to charity, because you're going to have a higher deduction, 50%, if you just give to charity versus 30%, is your deduction against your adjusted gross income for a private foundation, and the vast majority of the time, they say, I'll take the 20% deduction, if it means I get to create something that has my name attached to it. So you know, the, the tax benefits are there, the deduction is there, which is fantastic. It's not as great as just donating off to a public charity, but I think the retain the attainment of the control is really what entices people, you know, they say, Well, if I was going to make this gift to charity, you know, as a way to limit my gross estate, upon my death, I might as well have some control over it makes them feel like it's still included in their estate when it's not.

Ron Bockstahler

16:44

So they can take that money and depend on what the bylaws say, just do an investment into it, and maybe donate the investment proceeds annually.

Bill Caesar

16:51

So yes, you can, so what you can do is you can have in investments, now the investments have to be vetted, you know, you can't have any conflicts of interest. And you have to have what's called a conflict policy, to go along with your foundation to make sure that every investment that you're going to make is properly vetted, you know, you're not giving a cash infusion to a board members company, or something like that. And you do have to pay tax on the net investment income. But these are tools for appreciation of growth, you know, you can take that, that excess money that you have over the federal tax exemption and put it into a foundation. And so long as you're giving away 5% of the total, the total value of the foundation per year, you're going to meet the requirements of a private foundation, which means you have 95% of that pool of money available for investments, operating expenses, things like that. And I think that's also a huge driver from, you know, not necessarily a tax standpoint, but from a utility and new standpoint, people people love the fact that okay, you know, I could just give 100% of this money away from charity, or I can give, you know, in the first year 95% of it to the actual foundation itself, or operations and 5% gets donated out to the charities. And there's a good there's, there's a point for that too, because the more it appreciates the more money over time, you're going to be able to get a chair.

Ron Bockstahler

18:20

quick aside question, do all foundations that have investment income have to pay taxes on it?

Bill Caesar

18:27

All foundations? So no, if you are a private operating Foundation, which means you are a foundation that's created kind of like public charity, to actually operate a certain charitable endeavor, soup kitchen, you know, shelter, what have you, I believe you've not, the only thing I'll say is I don't do a lot of private operating foundations, I do a lot of just regular private foundations. Because usually, if you're able to run an institution like that, you're getting into public charity status anyway. So we might as well go for the whole shebang. Now. It could be it's a it's a valid placeholder, you know, there is an advantage advantage to being an operating foundation. But most of the time, at least with the clients that I deal with, they just go with a regular private foundation.

Ron Bockstahler

19:22

So what are some of the limitations on the exempt organizations, activities? What can't they do?

Bill Caesar

19:28

Okay, so, obviously, they can't run anything for profit. They can't participate in political contributions, you know, be veiled as a not for profit for charitable purposes. And then, you know, support political candidates. Most of the time I advise my, my clients who are politically inclined, I say, hey, make sure that you keep your foundation as far away from this thing as possible. Which is usually very important. You have to be very strict. In your governance, so you're allowed to have related members sit on the board, that's kind of the point, you know, husband and wife, sons, daughters, friends, you know, what have you. But you have to make darn sure that their experience personal information is all kept on record, that your meeting minutes, you know, reflect their appointments. And that they are always going to be disinterested in the foundation's activities, you know, meaning, like I said before, you don't want to directors company to partner up with the foundation in a manner that directly benefits or maybe even possibly indirectly benefits the board member, I think I think that's one of the biggest issues, um, the reasonableness of salary and fees, you know, you can't put your kid on a payroll and say, Alright, I'm going to pay $100 an hour to go, you know, meet with with charities and let them know you have to, you have to make them keep time slips. And it's got to be the going market rate for that type of work.

Ron Bockstahler

21:02

But they can be paid board positions?

Bill Caesar

21:05

Yes, yes.

Kirsten Mayfield

21:07

Can they learn all of these rules on what they need to do just from talking with you, as an attorney? Are there other people, they need to get involved to make sure that they stay in line with everything?

Bill Caesar

21:18

So it's? That's a very interesting question. So normally, I'm the one who's kind of guiding the I call that the governance, right. There's a lot of really wonderful materials out there on the IRS website itself, there's one specific page, it's called the lifecycle of a private foundation that goes through everything in depth. But I'm usually the one who has to synthesize that information, spell it out to the client, tell them okay, this is how we operate this, how we operate within the confines, I draft those limitations and bylaws. So you know, there's a record of it. The one thing valuable piece of the puzzle is usually a CPA, who has experienced doing exempt organization tax returns, you know, believe it or not a lot, a lot of just don't do that. That's an important part. And they're, they really helped me in measuring. I don't want to call it the risk, but I guess the temperature of the IRS is thought on certain expenses, travel expenses, you know, positions that you can, you know, take that are aggressive, medium, conservative. So, yeah, they're, usually when it's dealing with operating foundations, the client calls me they say, Hey, can I do this? And I say, No, you can't do this, here's how we have to do it in the future, you know, or, you know, Mike, my kid met with four charities on Saturday, he spent five hours doing it. And I say, well, you got to, let's create a timesheet, let's have them, put down the time, make a detailed log of it, you know, and then we'll, we'll withhold the tax and pay him for the work that he did. You know, as opposed to just writing a check out of it straight out of the foundations bank account.

Kirsten Mayfield

23:06

So do you get like a relationship with these families that you work with, because I'm like, starting to go into like TV realm where it's like the family sitting in the room where they're like, we must stop, we gotta call the lawyer of the foundation, that kind of thing. Do you get like involved, I mean, I, I assume your clients are not messing up, if you're guiding them, but still, like, it feels like they're part of the family, you know,

Bill Caesar

23:26

it is, and it's a very personal area of law, you know, you they really have to trust you, you really have to trust them, you have to know the details of the family intricately, but this goes for every estate planner as well, you know, because what the intent of usually a testator, you know, somebody who's writing a will or trust, or creating a Family Foundation, their intent is I want to provide for my family while taking into consideration all of the, you know, their differences and personality traits, attributes, things like that, you know, so I meet with the family, and I say, you know, one of the things that we talked about initially is Okay, which one of the kids do you think is going to want to run with this? You know, Johnny might be more charitably inclined, while Joey might be more interested in foking focusing on his career. So, you know, yeah, we, we, we get very close, you know, you can really streamline the process, though, if you teach the family how to have an annual meeting. And that annual meeting is used for the selection of the charities that have to and you grab somebody in the family to be the secretary or I myself can act as the Secretary and record the meeting, you know, you can start having a very efficient manner of these the chair, you know, deciding these are the charities we want to select. Let's put them down in the meeting minutes. Let's transmit all that to lawyer for the records and then let's have the treasurer write the checks. So if you run this thing clean, you're not going to have a Lot of incidences where there's a big screw up, which is good, at least, in my opinion. Um, so, yeah, but I do enjoy getting close with the families.

Kirsten Mayfield

25:11

It's great.

Bill Caesar

25:13

Really, it's also nice to see what the benefits are, you know, this is a

Ron Bockstahler

25:18

very interesting area of law. I tried to think of like, Okay, what, what else do we need to understand and knew what's what's the pitfalls? I mean, why wouldn't I provide, I got enough money, you know, set up a foundation.

Bill Caesar

25:34

Alright, so there are a lot of people out there maybe hanging out with their net worth individuals who want to stay under the radar. So, you know, you create a private foundation, you know, you can make anonymous gifts, but maybe you don't want to have to file an application with the IRS and get on, you know, get on their radar at all, maybe you just want to leave a significant amount of money to charity anonymously, and be done with it. You know, I think that's the first pitfall would be exposure, you know, because you have to have a degree of transparency when running these things. I think the second pitfall is just the numbers themselves, a private foundation has that lower deduction rate, and some people are very math oriented. And they say, you know, I think that I rather just, you know, not worry about my legacy, you just keep the extra 20%. and move on. And then you have the bad apples, who, you know, they, they run fast and loose with their fundation operations, they, they get really liberal with their finances. And, you know, they, they end up dealing with some pretty significant penalties. I mean, you know, if you, if you incorporate as a not for profit, you have to operate that way. And I, you know, I think that the IRS is going to start taking a deeper dive into those foundations that maybe aren't necessarily as altruistic as they should be. But I think those are the most glaring pitfalls that you have, you know, the other thing is, is time, a lot of times we create these entities, when people are older, and they say, Oh, sure, I can devote 10 hours a week to this thing? Well, after two years, they look at you, and they say, I'm tired, and I just want to spend time with my grandkids. You know, so it does take a very motivated, not only individual, but family to keep the worth of this thing. Because, again, we're trying to appreciate it, you know, we're trying to appreciate it in reputation, we're trying to appreciate the actual assets of the Foundation, and the family members exposure. So if you're not going to have the endurance for running, that's going to be a problem. And I have seen one or two of these things, you know, fizzle out because the family was gung ho for the first two years, and then they, you know, backed off.

Ron Bockstahler

27:54

But you bill that brings up a good point, how hard is it to dissolve a foundation, I guess, is the first point and the other instances where someone will create a foundation for a limited amount of time, say I want to spend all this money in 10 years, kind of like the guy that had a billion dollars that one does, you know, die broke. Yeah, I believe he successfully is there.

Bill Caesar

28:15

So you can you can wind up a private foundation, like you would a corporation now in your Articles of Incorporation for a exempt entity, a private foundation, you have specific statutory language, basically promising, you know that, that the assets won't revert back to, you know, the original donor that they'll be used to close the corporation and, you know, continue on fulfilling the charitable purpose. So far as limited duration, none of these entities have to continue on in perpetuity, which is, you know, that's also a good thing. Because sometimes, you know, maybe plans change, maybe a different family member has their own foundation, and rather focus on that, you have to file a final return, you know, so you're going to have to work with your CPA to, you know, tie up the loose ends and the left and right columns of the accounting sheet to to make sure that every dime is going to be accounted for. It's not like some of the super PACs where a lot of the money just reverted back to the treasurer, which isn't good. You know, that that money needs to be accounted for in use for its charitable purpose. But you know, somebody maybe has buyer's remorse about a private foundation, my position always is, you know, don't operate it right now. Maybe don't necessarily fund it, keep making the 5% distribution, pay the limited money you have for the tax return, you know, have a small annual meeting and just keep it on the back burner to see if maybe you want to use it later on. Because you never know if you're going to have an adult shot except one day and says I want to help the world. You know, I want to I want to and this is the perfect You know, this is a perfect segue that goal?

Ron Bockstahler

30:01

I guess you're assuming you work with estate planning attorneys, accounting firms? These are the people that are coming across these high net worth individuals is this. Am I missing anyone? Or is that correct?

Bill Caesar

30:13

Yeah, that's, that's, that's correct. So I usually do the estate planning myself in conjunction with the foundation formation. I love talking shop with other estate planners, though, because, you know, there's always something new to learn. And it's always changing, which, which is great. CPAs as well are just integral to this type of thing, because they're the ones who really know, the down and dirty about running proper payroll, and how, you know, how are we going to characterize the expenses? What line? Are we putting these things on the return? And, you know, what, what's going to get pushed through and what's what's going to be a red flag, what's going to be a problem. But you know, another, you know, we work with, with private bankers, you know, we work with Wealth Advisors, you know, a lot of times, you know, I have to have a conversation with a wealth advisor, and say, Hey, you know, the client wants to start a private foundation, I think you should have conversation with him about a donor advised fund first, just so they know what the distinctions are in the deductions, and they can make a fully informed decision.

Ron Bockstahler

31:17

Let me stop you right there. What is a donor advised fund,

Bill Caesar

31:20

so a donor advised fund is an account at a bank, that you it's basically a pool of that you can make all of your trigger charitable donations to and then advise where that money goes. So it's an organized, more organized method of charitable giving, that also carries that 50% deduction.

Ron Bockstahler

31:44

That's kinda like you see, like Hendricks county Foundation, you can that you can donate your money to a certain large foundation and say, I want it to go to certain areas. Is that kind of the donor advised fund?

Bill Caesar

31:58

Yes, that's right. Okay. And they're usually run by larger financial institutions who, you know, like, always take their fees, and, but do they do a great job in appreciating the assets and, and everything else that they're supposed to do. And, you know, a lot of times I really do tell clients, maybe that's the best, that's the best route for you based upon what you want to do. Maybe they don't have any kids, nobody's going to carry this thing on in the future. It makes sense for them.

Ron Bockstahler

32:23

Right? Interesting. So let's jump into a couple other areas. Real quick, we've got a lot of time left. But tech, talk me about technology that you're seeing your as a younger attorney, that you're using, maybe that's really changing the practice of law.

Bill Caesar

32:37

I can name one that relates directly to private foundations in 2020, the IRS did away with the requirement to generate a paper application and mail it in. So now you file your 1023 application online@pay.gov under the Forms tab, now, you still have to generate all the ancillary documents, the bylaws, things like that. But that's that's a huge, huge win for people like me, who used to get an AMA client, because it cuts down on costs used to get bogged down in plotting the paper making sure it's just right, you know, making the professional copies, things like that. And I think you're seeing more of that type of streamlining. Everywhere, obviously, zoom, you know, is in the same vein, you can do three or four court appearances in one day on zoom at less of a cost to the client, when you know, you still have to drive out to the various courthouses, a lot of this has been COVID driven, and a lot of it is a major silver lining.

Ron Bockstahler

33:47

So Bill, has the IRS done away with wet signatures?

Bill Caesar

33:52

So it's, that's also a great question. Yes, and no. So for instance, when you're applying for an employer identification number, you know, you self certify by typing in, when I generate an application, I have the corporate documents, and I have the application itself. I believe on the portal, when you file the application, that's a type signature certified by you know, the President, but all of the minutes and other documents, corporate documents that need to be signed, I usually prefer to have what signatures which I immediately, you know, scan on my iPhone out and put up into this, you know, into the cloud for for for storage. That's another thing too is, you know, the less paper right, that we're having to deal with is better for the practice of law and better for the environment.

Ron Bockstahler

34:46

So let's kind of round this thing at the final question we like to ask guests are what's the one thing in the business of law that you'd like to see changed going forward?

Bill Caesar

34:56

I would like to see attorney Public reputation improved. You know, I think that there are a lot of people who maybe have the wrong idea about what the vast majority of turns are, you know, meaning we're not all Bulldogs, we're not all sitting in office, you know, creating trumped up hours, you know, we're we're here, as, you know, counselors and business counselors in stressful times and life, trying to help in our individual niches. So I, I would really like to smart outreach between lawyers and you know, the middle and lower classes, so people can be informed of their rights, and understand that, hey, I can trust this person. Yeah, he provides a service for money, but they actually do want to help me and the lawyers have to, you know, do their part in that, too, we've got to, we've got to find a way to be more client oriented. And I know that we are, you know, we work late hours for the client, you know, but really keep in mind, sort of the the sentiment and their emotions and the stress that they're under, and do a better job is acting as counselors as opposed to just, you know, random suits, who are who are there to draft the documents and send it out. Now, I think that's going to go a long way. And I think, you know, lawyers won't have to be worried about how are they going to get paid if they can have a more positive relationship with, you know, the people that they're servicing? Just like in the restaurant industry? What and the retail industry, the customer's always right.

Ron Bockstahler

36:37

Makes a lot of sense. I see that there's a, I guess, I asked you, are you seeing more foundations like this get started, as we're seeing more of the country's wealth move up to the top bound, I'll say to 5% of the population,

Bill Caesar

36:52

I'd say in the last two and a half decades, absolutely, these things have been springing up like crazy, especially with, you know, high profile individuals, you know, you're talking F, you know, athletes, celebrities, things like that. Everybody's got a foundation in that realm, and I think you're seeing it, pick up a heck of a lot more, you know, in the upper middle to, you know, slightly more wealthy areas as well, I think people are grabbing a hold of these things and saying, I want to create a legacy, I want to create my own entity. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a for profit business that I'm going to run. You know, and that's interesting, too, because private foundations and these charitable entities have also had an increased scrutiny from the IRS. So they become more popular, but they've also become, you know, more reviewed by the federal government.

Ron Bockstahler

37:44

So I guess the next follow up question that would be are you seeing, or does this help the equity and distribution of wealth in this country? Or is it hurt?

Bill Caesar

37:53

Oh, man, that's a mouthful. Um, I? Yes, yes, in some instances, it's absolutely fantastic for because you're taking individuals who may be might not have been charitably minded, and getting their children to into that mindset of giving back in an early age. Like I said, you're always going to have, you're always going to have bad apples, and you're always going to have disparity between the larger institutions and the smaller institutions. And I think that's not necessarily necessarily a reflection on foundation governance legislation. That's just, you know, that's what happens when you've got somewhat of an oligarchy in a country where you've got wealth inequality and wage, you know, no wage inflation, but inflation and everything else. So it's kind of like a greater trend that's influencing how foundations are run. You know, it's it's the same reason why large companies, you know, could negotiate their their leases during COVID. You know, because they actually have the standing of the firepower to stand up to their landlords and small businesses just got creamed. Right.

Ron Bockstahler

39:05

Okay, that leads that promise. My final question is, you know, I think with the change in administration, there's a good opportunity that a good chance, we'll see a change in the tax exemption, estate tax from what 11 million to potentially 1 million. would you would you say that that would make more room for other lawyers to recommend to their clients to consider forming a small foundation?

Bill Caesar

39:29

Absolutely. And also for those lawyers to recommend to their clients to start gifting now so they can lock in the current federal exemption.

Ron Bockstahler

39:39

Okay. Interesting. Bill. Thanks for joining us. best way for our listeners to contact you when they want to learn more about helping their clients set up a private foundation.

Bill Caesar

39:49

So you can call or email email is Cesar cis AR, la, la w at outlook dot calm. And my phone number is 630-632-5314.

Ron Bockstahler

40:07

Excellent. Bill, thanks so much for joining us on the show today. It's been great learn a little bit more about setting the foundation and you know, personally maybe something to look at down the road with all the kids. I got run around the house right. Thanks for joining us today. You've been listening to the 1958. lawyer. We appreciate you listening to us.

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