[COLD OPEN] Sometimes in my Orthodox spaces, if somebody isn't Shomer Shabbat or somebody is Reform, they'll say "they're not religious." But that isn't the case. Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist... they are all religious, they are simply different manifestations of practicing Judaism.
[MUSIC, INTRO] This is The Book of Life, a show about Jewish kidlit, mostly. I'm Heidi Rabinowitz.
There's a common TV trope called the Two Timer Date, in which a character needs to be in two places with two different people at the same time, often in two different outfits. I first encountered this trope when I was a kid watching Brady Bunch reruns: the one where Peter has to run back and forth between two dates, called Two Petes in a Pod. Hilarity ensues. That trope is brilliantly enacted and expanded upon in Joshua S. Levy's middle grade novel, The Jake Show. TV obsessed Jake sees life in terms of shows. His parents' divorce is like his favorite show getting canceled, and now he's stuck playing two roles: Yaakov for his religious mother, and Jacob for his secular father. Jake has to concoct a web of lies to get to summer camp where he can just be himself. Will that end well? Tune into my conversation with Joshua Levy, and find out.
Josh Levy, welcome to The Book of Life.
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.
Tell us a little about your journey to becoming the author that you are today.
The honest answer for when my writing journey began, is as early as I can remember. The first book I ever wrote was a novelization of the Super Nintendo game Death and Return of Superman, that I wrote on wide ruled loose leaf paper. And I was so proud of it. And I showed it to like an eighth grader on the bus and he a little bit broke my heart because he revealed that the Super Nintendo game was already based on the best selling graphic novel of all time, and it wasn't the original idea that I thought it was. But really, I've been trying to write ever since. Seventh Grade Versus the Galaxy was the first book that sold in 2017, for a 2019 release. Between fifth grade and then I had written all kinds of projects, some half baked, some were more than half. Throughout that time, and now, I've always had kind of another career. I was a teacher for a time, I went to rabbinical school, I'm a lawyer now. So I've always worn lots of different hats. I am increasingly trying to express my Jewish heart and identity in what I'm doing. That aspect of my life has always been so central to who I am. But at the beginning of my writing journey, I was keeping it at such a distance. And it took me maybe the validity of getting a book or two out there in the world first to feel honestly brave enough to try and express something a little bit closer to home.
Well, with all that as background, tell us about your latest story, The Jake Show.
The Jake Show is a middle grade novel about a kid who comes from a divided family. His parents are divorced and both are remarried. His mom and stepdad are Orthodox and his dad and stepmom are essentially not religious at all. And Jake, as a middle school kid, kind of caught between these two worlds, struggles with his identity, with the identities of the somewhat polar opposite universes of his two homes. It's important to me that the reader understands that the families mean well, but they don't always express that well meaning in the most positive ways. But the reality is, even though they mean well, they want very different things from Jake and that really pulls him apart. When he's at one house, he wears a black hat, eats only kosher food. When he's at the other house, he doesn't have his yarmulke, he eats basically whatever he wants. And even in school, he's kind of a chameleon adapting to whatever circumstances he finds himself in and it a little bit erases whatever identity he would have himself. The book begins with him starting another new school; his parents are warring in court over exactly what kind of school he should be in. And at his new school, he meets two friends Caleb and Tehilla. They see Jake for who he is, and he wants to go with them to summer camp, the one that they go to and love so much. But it's a camp that wouldn't be religious enough for his mom and stepdad and would be too religious for his dad and stepmom. And they would never let him go. So he lies his way there, and shenanigans and challenges ensue.
What inspired this story?
Well, I am a Jewish kid with divorced parents, and I was a middle schooler who had one side of his family, very religious; the other side, not. While mine and Jake's stories aren't the same, (I certainly never lied my way to summer camp, I don't know if I was that clever), but I did navigate many of the same kinds of challenges and dynamics that Jake faces in the book. And I also think that that dynamic of a kid trying to sort out his identity from the ground up while parents and communities are trying to kind of impose it from the top down, that's a really middle-school-y, middle-grade-y story. And while it's a very Jewish book, I thought that that dichotomy was universal. I'm gonna say one more thing. As I said already, I have this running middle grade series, but I wanted to write a very Jewish book. And I really wanted to write a Jewish book that wasn't about the Holocaust, or antisemitism, as much respect as I have for those kinds of stories. I wanted to capture some kind of quiet, contemporary corner of a slice of Jewish life. And this is what came out of that effort.
I'm fascinated to hear that this is actually based on your life, because it felt kind of over the top -- in a good way. But I didn't even imagine that this was based on reality.
Yeah, a lot of the book is over the top. The book has a propulsion to it that is fun and dynamic. A scene I really love is set in an airport, where Jake has to get on a flight and navigate the reality that all of his parents are there at the same time. And he's changing his clothes and trying to be multiple people all at the same time. I tried to depict it in a conceivably realistic way. But I also wanted to write a really fun, funny book that dealt with the seriousness of the topic, but one that also, you know, make kids laugh and wanting to turn the page to the next.
Well, you definitely succeeded with that. With such a range of Jewish representation in the book, and just within Jake's day to day existence, I have to ask you where you see yourself along that spectrum?
It's a good question. I have family all across it. I personally inhabit generally Modern Orthodox spaces. I send one kid to Modern Orthodox Jewish day school, I send another kid to a Conservative Jewish day school, I attend Modern Orthodox synagogue. But I think I flit in and out and I struggle with my own personal identity in a number of ways, kind of like Jake, although it manifests differently now. I love being in Jewish spaces. And I'm trying to infuse my writing with that, too.
From my point of view, you've done a respectful job of portraying both families, the more religious family and the more secular family, without taking sides. So mazel tov on that; how did you manage that?
Thank you, that was really important to me. I wanted to depict both the Orthodox religious side of things as well as the secular not religious side of things in a respectful way, even though some of the characters that live in those worlds aren't always respectful themselves. But I wanted to be clear that the book did not and does not have a view on who's right or who's wrong. Everybody is just a person. And sometimes people make good choices, and sometimes they don't.
I' m Reform, so I don't know all the details, but did you have to fudge anything? Like, would Jake have also been wearing tzitzit at his very religious mother's house and that would be part of the costume, so to speak, that he has to do the quick changes with? Would she expect him to grow payes, the sidelocks, that would make it very hard to switch roles?
These are great questions. I really do think that the authenticity is there. There is a single moment, I believe where Jake's tzitzit or if he's at his mom's he'd call them tzitzis, appear, I think when he's like quickly changing his clothes there's a reference to it. A lot of that stuff required work to make sure that I wasn't loading up on the representation at the expense of the accessibility of the book. But your questions are good ones. And I did have to navigate around wanting it to be an authentic depiction, and doing so in a way that didn't overload a reader who wasn't familiar. But yeah, there are little moments where I think there's some dissonance between what Jake experiences and what might happen in real life. But every example of that was deliberate.
Okay, fair enough. The motivation for Jake's lies -- his many, many lies -- is his desire for shalom bayit. Can you explain what that is?
Sure, shalom bayit, or I think if Jake were at his mom's, he'd probably call it shalom bayis, is just the idea that there is a value in peace in the home. Literally, that's what the phrase means. And sometimes it's worth trying to facilitate that value at the expense of other things. People say, you know, shalom bayit, I think they mean it in a really positive way. Right? Don't squabble, have shalom bayit. It's not worth it to have this argument, it's so silly, get along, enjoy your family, appreciate what you have. And I think all that's right. But there is a point at which the value can go too far. And I tried to express that here. You know, Jake, is suppressing a lot of himself. He's trying so hard to please everybody around him. And that instinct ultimately is counterproductive for him. It's counterproductive for his family, it's counterproductive for his friends. There's this one line where he reflects something like, it's easier to be a lot of kids that everybody loves than one kid that everybody hates. And that's a, that's a struggle I think he was going through and it's a struggle that a lot of middle school kids go through, trying to figure out who they are, while other people have expectations of them that might be to the contrary.
All right, thank you. The key to the story, or A key to the story, is that everyone can feel like a stranger in a strange land sometimes. And I feel like it could have worked with a different set of opposing viewpoints, not necessarily even Jewish viewpoints, like it could have been assimilated and unassimilated immigrant parents. What do you think about that?
I completely agree with you. I really think that that dynamic of being pulled in different directions is universal. And it can be expressed through different lenses and communities. And this is a very Jewish story. But the framework, and the themes are accessible to general audiences and all readers too. So absolutely.
There's some very thoughtful stuff about what makes a good friend. So I wanted to ask, What do you think makes someone a good friend? And do you have to be a good person to be a good friend?
Wow, these are excellent, wonderful questions. Do you have to be a good person to be a good friend? Maybe, maybe not. I think you can be loyal without being a good person. But I do think the two things go hand in hand. In this story, part of what I'm trying to say is that you can't be a good friend if you're solely focused on what your friends can do for you, and solely focused on you as the main character of the story. Everybody's the main character in their story. And when we lose sight of that, to the degree that I think Jake loses sight of it, then we stop being a good friend. I'm not sure I would say that just because Jake struggled to be a good friend meant that he wasn't a good person. He was, I think, trying his best in a really hard situation. And one of the casualties of him juggling all the plates he was juggling was his friendships. You know, the lying to his parents and trying to keep up the lies impacted his ability to treat other people well too.
What do you think make someone a good friend, just in general?
Wow, what do I think makes someone a good friend? Kindness, loyalty, empathy. Being interested in the other person is a necessity and appreciating that a friendship requires effort and care. I don't know, I want to ask you, Heidi, what do you think a good friend is? Is that okay? Can I ask you questions?
Sure!
Okay. What do you think is a good friend?
You know, I wrote the question, but I didn't think about what my answer would be. So I'm as much on the spot as you are. I think you gave a really good answer. And I think that if you feel good when you're with the person, if you have fun together, and you get each other, and you like doing things together, I think that is the glue that keeps me coming back to hang out with the same people over and over.
Yeah, I'm now rethinking my answer a little bit. I don't know if I think you need to water a friendship like a flower in order to keep it up over the long term necessarily. I certainly can think of friends I have, you know, unfortunately, because life gets busy, we don't check in with each other all the time, they live far away, and I still consider them a friend. I think we all consider each other good friends. But I do think that there is a point at which certain actions can inject elements of toxicity into a friendship, because you're so focused on on yourself. And I tried to explore some of that in The Jake Show.
Right. Just the title gives you that sense right there, that if it's The Jake Show, then it's about Jake, it's not about the other people. And because he was thinking of it in television terms, it made the other people side characters automatically.
Automatically. Yeah. In the show where Jake is the main character, is the hero, is where the story revolves, then yeah, you know, it's The Jake Show. But even though he thinks about life through a lens of TV, and you know, we can talk more about that, that's not real life, and we're all playing out our own narratives. And it's so hard to remember sometimes, that you're not the center of the universe. Nobody is.
Well, we haven't really talked about the TV aspect. And I think that in order to understand this book, you need to understand that Jake thinks about TV and loves TV, that that sort of forms his view of the world. Can you go ahead and explain that premise?
Absolutely. I personally am not nearly as obsessed with TV as Jake is. But I wanted him to be a really voicy character. And this was one way to do that. This specific way helped me do a few things. It helped me organically translate, or maybe code switch is the right word, some of the very Jewish content in a natural way. For example, there's the spot where Jake is describing the classes he's taking at school, and he references English and math, and then chumash and mishnah. And in his head, and then in the narrative, he subtitles the conversation. And that wouldn't make any sense, except Jake is obsessed with TV and he sees everything essentially through that lens. So that was one useful reason why I played around with the TV stuff, but also on a character level, I thought it fit Jake's struggles. He is in multiple ways playing at the idea of character, he is pretending to be different people. He is playing out tropes, because he is kind of a character in his different homes. He's not really authentic to himself, he really is kind of play acting at whoever he is. And to your point about friendship, he also loses sight a little bit of the reality that he's not really stuck in a TV show. And in the real world, if you act like the main character of a show, then you are sucking up the air in the room in a way that comes at the expense of the people around you. So that lens gave me so much to play with in terms of theme and chapter structure. I just I had a blast with it.
I got a big kick out of Jake needing to switch his clothes and run over here to be with these people and then change clothes and run.... It's like that Brady Bunch episode, it's like... that has happened in so many TV shows. The most recent example of that that I enjoyed was in The History of the World, Part Two, the long awaited Mel Brooks....
I haven't seen it yet.
Okay, so I don't want to spoil it for you. But...
Go ahead. Go ahead.
There's a segment in which Wanda Sykes is playing Shirley Chisholm as if Shirley Chisholm is the lead of a show from the 70s. It looks like The Jeffersons. I mean, it's so well done. And she has to switch outfits and attend to different events at the same time in that classic trope. So I just got a really huge kick out of Jake playing out that same exact thing. It's never not funny.
I totally agree. It's never not funny. I'm trying to remember what Jake calls it. I think he calls it the double date fake because he has like names for these things. He's given them proper nouns. I don't think it made it into the final book. But the original pitch when Jake is suggesting that he try and pull this off, involves him listing all the specific examples from TV and movies where this happens. And I think it might have gone on for like a page and a half. It's just really just a giant list of all the examples I could possibly think of. And at some point, my editor was like, Are you sure we should go in this direction? And I ultimately agreed, and I dialed that back. But yes, so many examples. Never not funny.
Maybe you should put it on your website. I would like to see the list.
Just a footnoted version of the Jake show with specific references to seasons and episodes of television. I would love that.
The director's cut.
Director's cut! Heidi! That's great!
See, I'm on a roll now. So another thing that I found entertaining in its creativity. When Jake goes to summer camp, there are many girls named Shira. And they have the Shira Club. So tell us about the Shira Club and how you got the idea for that.
Well, not all of the stuff in the book is grounded in something super meaningful. And I suppose I would say that Shira Club is an example of that. Like I was a kid with divorced parents, one side of which was religious, one side of which wasn't, I was a Josh, with so many Josh's around me. I think at one point, there were four or five Josh's in my class. I cannot even count the number of Josh Levy's I personally have been confused for. And I think in Jewish circles, I don't know whether more than others but in the ones that I've swam in, it is not uncommon for there to be multiple kids with the same name. And for, maybe not shenanigans but shtick to be built around that reality, and the Shira Club (and I don't know how many Shiras I know, but it's a lot) you know, grew out of that idea.
Well, I especially like that the Shira Club was not just that they all had the same name and Oh, isn't that fun? They were like the mafia or something. They had an organization. They could get things done.
A lot, lot of stuff flies at summer camp that wouldn't fly back home. Yeah. And you know, a lot of that is fun silliness, easy ways to get out of plot problems, but, but I had a lot of fun with it.
It was a great Deus Ex Machina, the Shira Club. Sticking with the TV theme, were there any Easter Eggs or afikomens hidden in the book?
I've never heard them referred to as afikomens, but I love it. I mean, there are afikomens everywhere, both on the TV front, and on the Jewish front. And some of them are really subtle. Off the top of my head, there's a scene later in the book, where Jake is in a Torah learning setting. I'm trying not to spoil it. And there are kids just learning their mishnayot and gemaras and there are random little snippets being yelled out here and there, as happens in a Beit Midrash. And all those references are really specific and thematically connected to the story. And there are things like that throughout. I don't know who they're for except me, but they're there.
Well, that again, is making me think that this is something to put on your website. You know, after you see a movie and there's, articles appear on various blogs about Here's what you missed, go look again and find...
The Director's Cut.
Yeah, exactly. If The Jake Show became a show, who would you cast?
Oh, my goodness. I don't think I'm prepared to answer this question. Heidi, I would need to hold nationwide auditions for for just the right kind of kid because remember, he's really got to be a versatile actor, if he's going to play Yaakov and Jake and Jacob which are his different identities depending on his house, and he's going to play him right so you know, it's going to be a tough, grueling audition process, but we'll get through it.
And what would be your post credit scene?
Post credit scene? Wow. Well, the book specifically ends in something of an ambiguous place. And I think if I had to do a post credit scene, it would be one of those totally wacky, not, you know, telegraphing whatever happens in Jake's future kind of scene? I don't know. Maybe it's -- No, you know what, I know exactly what it is. It's the Shira Club getting up into some exciting, unbelievable business. That's what it would be.
Perfect. I would love to have more Shira Club. Maybe you should do a book about the Shira Club.
A spin off!
A spin off, exactly!
Jake's friend Caleb is gay. And that's an important element of the story in and of itself, and also as a parallel to Jake sort of being in the closet, or kind of being in two closets. So can you talk about that?
Sure. So Jake has this friend Caleb and Caleb goes to a Modern Orthodox school. And just on a general level, it was important to me to depict that community in a nuanced way, not in a monolithic way. And Caleb, and Tehilla, in her own way, helped me do that. It was really important to me to include somebody in this community who had an identity along the queer LGBTQ spectrum. It is something that my Jewish world continues unfortunately to struggle with. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure I've ever read a single, certainly middle grade book that depicts the nexus of an Orthodox community contending with a kid like Caleb. I did not feel like I could tell Caleb's story; it's not on the margins of Jake's story, but he is a secondary character, and and I worked hard both with myself and others to try and get that right. But I wanted a reader to understand that this is reality for this community. There are Orthodox schools and institutions that are contending with kids like Caleb, not all of them are doing so with kindness in a welcoming way, and Caleb has experienced some of that; and some are getting it right, finally. You know, I wanted the book to capture some of what's happening out there. I would add, I think that in her way, Tehilla represents something analogous in that she lives with a single mom, and they struggle to make rent. And something that I feel like I don't see enough of either, is a depiction of the reality that, you know, Jewish communities are diverse, also along socioeconomic lines. And I really wanted that to be part of the ecosystem too.
Thank you for including that kind of diversity within the book. I think it's realistic and important.
It means a great deal to me. I'm grateful that the story is heading out into the world.
Jake's divorced parents, as you mentioned, are both remarried, and his step parents joke about having a quote, wicked step parent back channel. Where did that idea come from?
Jake's biological parents do not always make the best choices. That's not an indictment of the religious parent or the non religious parent. They're just caught up in their own thing. And they are what they are. It was important to me to depict the step parents in a positive light. And I do think that increasingly, there is literature out there that shows the positive impact that step parents can have. I feel like I've been personally the beneficiary of the kindness of step parents and I wanted to include that here. In addition to the idea of positive step parenting, there was something I was trying to say about the religious and not religious dichotomy, in that, you know, if you dig into the characters, Jake's mom and dad didn't always inhabit the worlds they inhabit. Jake's mom became more religious. Jake's dad became less religious. But the step parents have essentially always been who they are. Jake's dad is married to someone who isn't Jewish and she does not have a frame of reference necessarily for religion, or at least Jewish religion. And Jake's stepdad has always been within the Orthodox frum world. And as a result, they are so comfortable, not just with the communities that they inhabit, but ironically or maybe not ironically, with each other's communities, they don't feel threatened in a way by the existence of the mirror image reality. And so that allows them to communicate across enemy lines, so to speak, in a way that has benefited Jake. That's a long winded response to the wicked step parent back channel idea, which, you know, I think hits sarcastically in the idea that step parents are often not depicted positively. And so this is their way of joking about that. And also the reality that they can speak to each other and they do communicate with each other in a way that Jake's parents just aren't capable of because they feel so strongly about who they want Jake to be.
So I want to thank you for the shout out to Jewish Kidlit Mavens in the acknowledgments. And for any listeners who don't know, Jewish Kidlit Mavens is a Facebook community for folks interested in Jewish children's literature that I run with my friend and frequent podcast guests, Susan Kusel. So how did Jewish Kidlit Mavens earn a spot in your acknowledgments?
Heidi, it really is a vibrant, special place. I'm a member of a number of Facebook groups, Slack channels. And I don't know if I can think of maybe not even a second example of a community that is as vibrant and active and productive. As Jewish Kidlit Mavens. I'm so grateful for that. I think you've done such a fantastic job, you and your partners with that project. I love being able to interact in that space, with all of us swimming in the same direction, whether it's authors, librarians, whether you're interested in picture books, or middle grade, or YA, we are all committed to furthering and promoting Jewish kidlit out there in the world. And it can feel sometimes like you're on a lonely road when you're in this publishing ecosystem. And Jewish Kidlit Mavens I think helps underscore that we're not, that we're really all trying to get the stories out there. I think it's such an important contribution to the Jewish kidlit world and I can't thank you enough.
That really warms my heart. So thank you! And it was delightful to read the book, enjoy the book, and then come across that in the acknowledgments. So that was very special for me.
What are you working on next? Oh, the director's cut.
I love this question. If you'll permit me I'm gonna give you two answers because I'm right now working through edits on two Jewish middle grade books coming out in 2024. The first is from Abrams and it is an anthology of short stories all inspired by the steps of the Passover seder, kadesh, urchatz, karpas, yachatz, I am co editing it with my dear friends, Chris Baron and Naomi Milliner, it's called On All Other Nights. And we've got contributions for stories from just an incredible lineup of Jewish middle grade authors. I am so excited about the project. And I am also working through edits on my 2024 HarperCollins book, Finn and Ezra's Bar Mitzvah Time Loop, which I am so excited about. And that book is what it sounds like, and also a lot more, I'm really thrilled. And I really want to try and tell enjoyable, fun, meaningful, deeply Jewish stories that contribute to this world that you know, you and I are both in and I'm grateful for The Jake Show and for what's coming up.
So is that like Groundhog Day, based around a Bar Mitzvah?
It is. I think about it a little more as a middle grade Palm Springs based around a bar mitzvah, but it's neither here nor there. Yes. Groundhog Day, Bar Mitzvah weekend. It's two kids stuck in the same time loop where they go from Friday to Sunday, and they just have to relive their bar mitzvahs over and over and over and over again. And they are desperate to break out. And I am very excited about that book.
That's a hilarious premise. I love it already.
Thank you so much. I feel like Jake would really enjoy reading Finn and Ezra's Bar Mitzvah Time Loop.
Oh, that's so meta. Where can listeners learn more about your work?
I have a website, JoshuaSimonLevy.com You can also find me on Twitter @JoshuaSLevy. I am trying to be present on Instagram too also @JoshuaSLevy, I don't know if I'm doing an adequate job or not, but I am trying. I'd love to interact with readers and other folks interested in these books, in Jewish kidlit anywhere.
It's Tikkun Olam Time. So what action would you like to call listeners to take to help heal the world?
Inspired in part by ecosystems like Jewish Kidlit Mavens, I'd like to encourage folks to reach across the boundaries of our respective Jewish corners, visit spaces that aren't only inhabited by folks like yourself and read from authors different from you. I feel so fortunate when I wear my Jewish kidlit hat or Jewish kidlit yarmulke, that I'm interacting with so many different kinds of Jewish folks across the denominational spectrum and across other backgrounds as well in the kidlit ecosystem. There's dialogue and collaboration in ways that I wish I saw in my other Jewish spaces in shul, or in schools. I think sometimes we're all so cordoned off. And I'm so grateful in the kidlit world that I get to interact so meaningfully with folks that inhabit kind of different corners than I do. And my hope is that people out there can find space for that kind of dialogue and collaboration in their own lives and in their own ways.
I love that because it fits right in with your book so beautifully. And it's interesting that it seems like literary spaces tend to cross those boundaries, because the Association of Jewish Libraries is like that, as well. We've got people from all different streams and denominations interacting and working together for the betterment of libraries, the same way that we do in Jewish Kidlit Mavens.
Yeah. And it's so beautiful, and it's so special, and I really always enjoy that dynamic.
You mentioned your yarmulke, and we were talking about Instagram a little while ago, too. And so it reminded me I recently started an Instagram called @KidlitKippot to curate images of kippot in Jewish children's literature, especially in books that are not Jewish, but where there's some kind of Jewish representation shows up whether it's a kippah or something else. I just think that's so interesting when that happens. But it occurs to me that the cover of your book would fit in, I can use that on my Instagram because it's a rare example of seeing a kippah on the cover of children's books, especially a mainstream published children's book.
I follow the account, which I already love. So thank you for doing that. And yeah, I'm delighted that The Jake Show has a kid with a yarmulke on the cover. I mean, he has all three of his versions. He has the version of him without a yarmulke, the version of him with one, the version of him with a black hat. Let me ask you, Heidi, middle grade books, what else is out there with a kid with a yarmulke on the cover?
I know there's a few YA recently. There's The Last Words We Said. There's Hoodie Rosen.
Yep.
But I'm trying to think what else from a mainstream press for middle grade? Maybe yours is the first. So if you are the first, mazel tov! Shehecheyanu!
Thank you so much. To be honest, I hope it isn't the first but if it is, may there be more.
Right. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that I haven't thought to ask you?
You mentioned that you are Reform, and I'm part of my Modern Orthodox community. And something I've thought about in The Jake Show and in setting it up, was deliberately not making Jake's dad and stepmom Reform or Conservative or some denomination specifically other than Orthodox. And I've gotten questions like, well, you know, you have an Orthodox side, why don't you have a Reform side or Reconstructionist side or something like that? And my answer is that that was done deliberately. Because sometimes in my Orthodox spaces, people will say things like, "well, they're not religious." If somebody isn't Shomer Shabbat or somebody is Reform, they'll say "they're not religious." But that isn't the case. Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, they are all religious, they are simply different manifestations of practicing Judaism. And I did not want to even imply that I thought, or the book thought, that Orthodox Judaism and Reform and Conservative Judaism, were somehow on a religious spectrum. It's more of a wheel, and we all occupy the spokes. And that's why I very deliberately set up one side of the family as Orthodox and the other side of the family essentially, as secular and not religious at all. Does that make sense?
That does make sense. And I appreciate the thought that you put into that. You're so right, that it's not levels of religiosity, it's just different expressions of it.
Exactly.
And especially because the parents are, you know, at each other's throats, they are oppositional, they're not just doing their own thing, they are mad at each other for the way the other one is. So it makes sense to pit them in things that actually are opposite. Religious/not religious, the way you've done it, they actually are the opposite, whereas they wouldn't be the opposite if one was Reform and one was Orthodox.
Exactly.
It's amazing because it's a hilarious book, but it's also such a thoughtful book, and you don't expect that combination. It's all woven together beautifully. So good job!
Try as I might, I cannot seem to write an entirely serious book.
No, it's good. humor helps. You know, especially if we want this to be a window book for non Jewish readers. It's the humor that's going to pull them in.
Yeah, and I understand that a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. But for me, the fun, the funniness. It's part of the point. I wanted this book to touch on important themes. And also just be fun.
Josh Levy, thank you so much for speaking with me.
Thank you, Heidi so much. I had a blast, really.
Me too.
[MUSIC, DEDICATION] Hi, this is Richard Ho, author of Two New Years.
And I'm Lynn Scurfield, the illustrator for Two New Years.
I'd like to dedicate this episode to my kids, who are both Chinese and Jewish.
And I'd like to dedicate this episode to my family, my mom's side who's Chinese and then my step family who's Jewish.
And we'd both like to dedicate this episode, additionally, to all the kids out there that don't fit neatly into a box.
[MUSIC, OUTRO] Say hi to Heidi at 561-206-2473 or bookoflifepodcast@gmail.com Check out our Book of Life podcast Facebook page, or our Facebook discussion group Jewish Kidlit Mavens. We are occasionally on Twitter too @bookoflifepod. Want to read the books featured on the show? Buy them through Bookshop.org/shop/bookoflife to support the podcast and independent bookstores at the same time. You can also help us out by becoming a monthly supporter through Patreon. Additional support comes from the Association of Jewish Libraries, which also sponsors our sister podcast, Nice Jewish Books, a show about Jewish fiction for adults. You'll find links for all of that and more at BookofLifepodcast.com Our background music is provided by the Freilachmakers Klezmer String Band. Thanks for listening and happy reading!
[MUSIC, PROMO] If I told you that my next episode was going to be about house which ran around on chicken legs, you might assume that this should belong to an odd looking children's book. But no, this is a full fledged intriguing adult adventure. When the Yaga siblings inherit their mother's house they set off on a journey to hide from the mysterious man who is stalking the house, discover themselves, and --oh yes-- create puppet shows along the way. Listen to Hannah Srour-Zackon's interview of GennaRose Nethercott about her AJL Honor winning book Thistlefoot. This is Sheryl Stahl. Find this conversation at Jewishlibraries.org/NiceJewishBooks.
