616 Hold Fast: Creating Space for Trust and Alignment in Funding (Iara Peng)

5:17PM Apr 24, 2025

Speakers:

Jonathan McCoy

Becky Endicott

Iara Peng

Keywords:

funding relationships

leadership

capacity building

equity

integrity

mission

social change

philanthropy

democratizing philanthropy

strategic thinking

trust

nonprofit leaders

funding crunch

mutuality

storytelling

Be what you know, my friend!

I am so excited to go deeper today with one of the great goats of our entire industry, yada Pang is back in the house. And before we introduce you, we want to welcome you back to our new hold fast podcast series. And for those who were able to attend impact up we had, I mean, Jon, would you say it was the panel of Julie's dreams to have this Ask an Expert Panel on we brought in yada, we brought in Lindsay Fuller and Scott Curran and Ori Carmel, and we were diving into all things questions that communities had around leadership and ops and capacity building and funding, and what do I do with my boards? And I just think yada is one of those voices in the We Are For Good ecosystem that just brings calm, she brings strategy, she brings vision. And so we're going to dive deeply into that. And do you remember when we put our poll out? Jon, during impact? Dub, yeah. And 55% of attendees told us that their biggest challenge right now is building and maintaining strong funding relationships, and we were just feeling like that. Stat says so much about the tension so many leaders are navigating right now. And how do you pursue resources without compromising your values? So this episode is we're gonna be diving into that tension, and we're gonna talk about, how do you hold fast to equity, to integrity, to mission, to humanity, to the way we fund and fuel social change. So yada is coming in to unpack it, and I'll let you give a little intro, even though she's been on this podcast and on panels to

introduce yada, oh my gosh. She's on this beautiful mission to make philanthropy more just transparent and accessible, things that we are champions for around here. She's the founder and CEO of just fund. If you haven't checked it out, run right now, my friend and go check out this incredible organization. We swear she's helping funders move money faster, what they say, moving at the speed of trust and more equitably, over $320 million so far to communities that need it most. She's also the force behind the democratizing philanthropy project, working to shift power to front line organizations. They have a track record of launching game changing initiatives. Yada is all about reimagining how resources flow to create real impact. You hear us talking about that a lot. We're about actually doing the thing and not just talking about it. So yada, to have you back in the house means the world. Good to see you, my friend.

Oh so good to see you. Always. Love, love, love to be in conversation with you too. It is

a freaking gift. And I just gotta say, the panel that Becky was talking about, I mean, there was truly, like such a beautiful energy in the room of just people sharing what they're struggling with, but you as panelists, really working together to solve for the room and to speak a lot of truths. And there is a moment there's a powerful concept that you shared about really allowing air to come in between the logs when you're building a fire that need for space and to keep the fire burning. So will you share a little bit about that analogy? I feel like we all kind of gasped, and we're all like scratching this down because it was so powerful. How does that concept apply to nonprofit leaders facing this urgency of funding right in this moment?

Oh my gosh, I love that. Y'all created the space for this, and I have to give a huge shout out to my own coach. I hope a lot of us have coaches out there. But Nitta karage, I was struggling, you know, as someone who's a consummate builder, who's built, you know, over almost a dozen, you know, nonprofits in this space, like I was really struggling because of this urge that we all have to do more in this moment. And I think this concept that we talked about of air between the logs comes from this really beautiful poem by that's called Fire by Judy Brown, and it uses this image of a fire to show how space is just as essential as the logs or the fuel, right? And so the line that really sticks out for me that we talked about is the space between the logs is what makes the fire possible. And in other words, like, to me, like, if we pile, if we pile too much wood on so much work, all these ideas, too fast, too much wood, too fast, the fire suffocates, right? So when there's the right amount of space between the logs and you can see it, we all know it because we draw it. As kids, you can draw that's when the fire can really breathe and can grow. And so I share that because it is, I think, a powerful metaphor for this moment, for leadership, for funding, where urgency, especially right now, is our constant companion. You know, this need for urgency. And there's another grant deadline, there's another program we have to run, there's a crisis to address. It's every day. It just keeps coming. And so this instinct that we have for survival is sticking more logs, more hours, more hustle, more doing, but without the space. And by I interpret space in this poem, the air between the logs to be space to reflect, space to strategize, space to breathe. For not doing that, we're burning out. Out, if we're not doing that, our teams are burning out, if we're not doing that, creating space air, then the mission that we're trying to advance, you know, is at risk. So I think for our nonprofit leaders who are facing this funding crunch right now, it's real, it's serious, it's scary. The analogy is a reminder that to rest is isn't a luxury, it's part of what keeps the fire going.

So if you came here wondering if yada was going to point you to 42 different ways to go raise a bunch of money, she's saying, breathe, rest. And I think just as someone who is type a I have a lot of problems with trying to put too much into a small space. And I think our just immediate gut reaction when we're feeling stressed, or when we're seeing that, oh, we're going to be short on our KPIs, or whatever it is, is I need to do more. But Jon, have you noticed that almost every expert who's come in to talk about hold fast has said you need space, like we talk a lot about the white space, you need to pause, you need to look around and re evaluate. You need to start thinking about bigger questions. And so I really like that we're level setting with the fire analogy right now, because I hope it is giving you friends some room to breathe and to feel like you should be breathing, and there is this sense right now. Yada, I'm sure you're hearing it in your work. We are hearing it on the daily over here, of organizations just scrambling, trying to find whether it's diversified funding or new funding, or unearthing, you know, funding that was supposed to use in one way for a different way. And I wonder if you can kind of speak to that pressure that orgs are feeling to add more logs to their funding strategy. Do you think that instinct might actually be working against people? What are your What are your feelings about that? I think it's

really important to give leaders some real clear hope right now and strategy, because, I mean, this is about like, people's lives, right? I mean a lot of the nonprofits, I mean as leaders, you know, I think about, I know you all think about, too, like people have jobs. People are taking care of multiple family members, you know, multiple generations. You're serving communities that are relying on you, and so we need to be there for them. So I just, you know, I think the rest metaphor is really important, not just as like, hey, every quarter, let's take a couple days off, kind of a rest, but let's rethink how we engage in relationship with funders, because I think the urgency and the crisis can actually diminish trust, as opposed to building the trust. And so I just wanted to get, like, really practical about what I mean, or what it means to me when I think about rest and the air between the logs, I think about, like, really tangible practices like pausing the hustle, you know, creating strategic breathing room. What does that mean? Maybe that means for a nonprofit leader, prioritizing fewer, better aligned funders, instead of chasing every opportunity, walks right, chasing every opportunity space between the logs. Doing you know, prioritizing fewer better aligned funders. What does that do? It's going to create the space to be in deeper relationship with your funders, who really understand you and who understand your mission. It's going to give you a chance to reclaim some time for strategic thinking, rather than scrambling and that frenetic energy we talked last time about COVID and the spending time in the important, not urgent. How do we create space for that? We need to make some choices as funders. So I think, you know, we really want to think about what's adding fire, you know, versus smothering the fire. And so I think that's a real, practical invitation I would offer to leaders, you know, right now. And I think, you know, another piece that I would offer is is really leaning into the storytelling, you know, as space that a lot of folks right now, they want the data, the analytics, the metrics, and I think even more important is the storytelling, because it brings in and centers our humanity, right? It creates more spaciousness, more spaciousness, more opportunity for that connection. And so I think sharing these stories can really slow down the frenetic energy that some funders may have, or that that certainly the groups have, and build this relationship that's not just rooted in crisis after crisis, but really inviting funders to be a part of this story that we as nonprofit leaders are building in our communities, and not making it a transaction. So I think I want to make sure folks know that for me, air isn't about like not doing anything. It's, it's, it's really about recentering, intentionality, relationship even your breath, you know, versus that frenetic kind of pace that we're allowing to guide us right now or again, like stacking more logs, like even, I think, in. Times of scarcity for me anyway, a just fund, you know, we rely on grants to to operate, and it's a practice that I am being disciplined to cultivate where I'm choosing to create this space, choosing to prioritize fewer relationships with funders who really understand what we're doing to create that opportunity for me to have more time for the strategic thinking, the deeper relationships, the kind of the pause instead of the, like, frenetic or, yeah, we'll build that Sure. We can do that. You know, yeah, I can. I'll take that money, and we can do that sure, you know, really just thinking about, where is the alignment, and, you know, how can I connect with people who really are working towards the same vision, the same North Star,

so good. I mean, these conversations just keep striking me, because they've got the organizational application. But every time we talk like we are humans that are experiencing this like this applies for how we show up and move through this world as people you know too. And I think these principles of alignment and moving slow and creating space for reflection are so important in our own lives. So I love that you're just pointing to that. And when I talk to you, I always think about trust. I feel like you're the keeper of trust. Because Yale's tagline has always struck me that the Speed of Trust, it's like, I think it's a powerful saying, but it's also true, has the benefit of being right. And I'm curious, like in times of urgency, you painted a picture of how it's easier to go. We can do that thing. Yeah, we can scope creep a little bit over here. How does somebody pour into not losing, holding fast and building trust? What are some of those hallmarks of trust, building activities that people could really lean into and not forsake whenever you feel overwhelmed in the moment, how do you still build trust with funders and relationships?

Yeah, I think it's such a good question. And I think, you know, one of without trust, everything is like an emergency or a crisis, you know? And I think I had a fun a donor that I worked with a long time ago in building solid air network, which is this amazing network of individuals and institutions moving money in solidarity with social movements. And she said, You know, I don't want to feel like an ATM for movements. You know, I don't want it to feel transactional. And I think that's the real cost of frenetic energy and living in this time, this space of urgency and rapid response orientation, is that it can be really transactional, which is going to lead to a short term relationship, which means you're going to work even harder to build more relationships with more more funders, versus taking the time to get out of the reflex. Because when you when you're in an urgent situation, your back's against the wall. I mean, you know you're desperate for funding, your reflexes to perform, to prove, to please, and it really undermines the conditions for trust. It, you know, from funders. So I think in that hustle, sometimes trust can get edged out. And you got to really think about trust is the space between just leaning back into that metaphor. It's not often just the ask, right? It's the, it's the air between the ask, if you will. It's like that conversation that's not just about money, right? It's the honesty about what's not working. It's the courage to say we're going to need more time, or we need more flexibility, or this isn't aligned, um, you know. Or it's the, it's the, it's the space to say this is actually what we need to make this work. You know, X isn't gonna really get us to where your goal is and to what we really need to to work towards that common goal we're gonna need y, right? There's, there's when you create that trust, you can have those kinds of conversations so you really have that space for honesty. It's not just the the transactional. Here's what we need, or here's what we can give. And you say, okay, but it's really around. Here's what we're seeing, here's what we're learning. What are you seeing? What are you learning? I love the funders that we have at just fund because they're sitting at an intersection where they're either funding intermediaries, they're funding infrastructure, they're funding the spaces where I want to break through, right? So, and they're seeing a lot of different entities like mine, right? Like, just fun. So it's like, what are you seeing? What are you learning? What are the big you know, they can kind of point the way for me where maybe I don't have to spend so much time trying to crack the nut. They're already seeing opportunities that I can kind of follow.

So good. Okay, that is so good. And you're talking about permission and agency and these things that I think historically, we didn't feel like we could bring to the table. And I hope your friends, you're listening and hearing a funder say, no, no, the partnership is stronger when we're both radically candid with each other. And I actually would even push further and say, it feels safer when we can say this. I'm nervous to say this to you, because I know that we had talked about this. But the reality is, this is our you know, this is our vision now. Yeah. This is where we've understood our focus needs to be. And so I think just that funder power dynamic can be very stunted, and you've positioned it in such an abundant way. And I I want to take this a little bit further for people, because I think when when a funder asks you, maybe to shift your work a little bit, maybe in exchange for support, or, you know, shifting that focus. It can feel a little squishy, but I think when you have such trust built between you about what's possible, it creates, again, a different dynamic. So talk a little bit about how people can hold fast to those values that they believe in that lead their organizations while still feeling like they have power within a dynamic with a funder. Yeah.

I mean, that's such a great such a great question. I mean, I think then the the number one thing for me is to be prepared before that question comes up. And one of the practices that we have, and that I've had from the many nonprofits that I've launched into the world is like naming your non negotiables. You know, knowing what your team will budge on or not. You know What won't you do for resources. You know, are you Where? Where can you be flexible? So I think you know, we all know values are strongest when you know you've named them before. They're actually tested. So I think that's really important. The other thing I would say is, like, one metaphor that's been coming alive for me this year is making sure that I'm not an island as a leader, which is why I love being in community with you and so many other folks of being in a connected space, right? And in this case, like with funders, that means being connected with your board and your team and making sure that you can role play. You can. You can really talk about these real scenarios, and you can know that people have your back if you walk away from a particular brand. You know, you can't hold a boundary by yourself. I mean, it's hard. You can it's really tough. So it's much easier if you've got people kind of behind you and you're in conversation with your board. Hey, I just want to let you know, this is what the funder is asking us to do. I'm not feeling comfortable. I'd love to get your thoughts. What do you think? Right? And really, kind of being in community, and so you're not kind of standing out there on all alone on an island. The number one thing I love to do when a funder comes to us is to, you know, and asks us to kind of shift purpose is to respond with curiosity. You know, that's the first thing get curious. Can you tell me why this is important to you? You know? Well, here's what our community is saying they need and how we've learned to show up for them. And you know, we'd love to explore how our priorities could align in this moment, but really getting curious like, Tell me more, because you know that program officer has also got a ton of pressure from their institution, right, and having to fit their new KPIs, their new key performance indicators, their new organizational key results, their new strategic plan, right? So if we can understand and get curious, that's where trust building, like, really lives, you know, in this kind of, like Honest dialog, not, you know, and said, sure we yeah, we can do that, just like getting curious, really learning, why are you asking me to do this? I'd love to hear why you think this is a good idea. Yeah.

And you think about just like conversations that are one sided, when no one's asking you a reciprocal question, like it's not building a relationship. And I think getting curious is such a great door opener. Obviously, it's taught us a lot in podcasting, of just hearing people's stories, not trying to go in without a bias, to just listen. And so this is bringing up this idea of mutuality and really centering dignity in funding conversations. What are, where do you go in terms of, what are some practices, you know, that organizations can really lean into to find mutuality? It's not just one sided. We're partners in this. We're on the same side of the table here trying to create whatever impact. Love

it as usual. I mean, I think, you know, we often we're approaching funders because we need something from them. But what we sometimes forget is they need something from us, right? So it's not just pay funder. We need the money to do this thing that funder is also trying to accomplish a goal. And if we can reorient around that, that we are together working towards a common goal, you've got a North Star. What is it? What are some of the other strategies that you're experimenting with to get to your North Star? How do we fit into that strategy? Here's where I think we could really help you as you're trying to learn more, right? Because they're they've got to report back on impact. But what are you trying to learn? I think those kinds of, again, that curiosity really helps re center that conversation on a shared purpose, on mutual respect, on what you're you know, that human connection that you talked about Jon earlier. And I think it's really important for us as nonprofit leaders to lead with relationship, you know. And like you said, Jon, start treating funders like people, because that's who they are. Or, you know, they're not just prospects, and same thing for them as they do with us, right? We're not just a grantee. We're people trying to solve a common problem. So I think prioritizing that relationship over transaction can be incredibly powerful. And y'all said this at the beginning. Ask funders, you know, why do they care about this work? What's their why? Right? We need to hold fast to our why, so we stay rooted in our values, but getting curious about their Why is really important, you know. So you're you're inviting folks into a partnership, to people who are bringing different resources to a partnership to accomplish a common goal. And the other thing, I think is important, and it's hard in this moment, but we gotta slow the tempo down. You know, it doesn't help to say, we need this money. We need it now, I know you do. We do, but I think you know and that urgency to even respond if a funders like you asked Becky asking to shift the strategy right? Well, can we just pause on that for a moment? Can we talk a little bit about why that that shift is really important. Let's reflect on that together a little bit so you give you slow down the tempo to create some opportunity to CO, create right together what we're trying to do, versus, like, instant compliance, you know, um, maybe that's interesting. Can we talk a little bit more about that? So I think, you know, mutuality needs that breathing room too, and that and speed, I think can sometimes be our enemy around that. I

just think this whole notion of slowing down and not feeling like you have to pile in, pile on, I just think there is something to this and and I think about the energy that that's going to bring, if you just really are trying to run to that conversation, we want to be steady partners. Want to be steady with you. They want to be there in the right moment with the right gift to the right project. And I think it's really natural for us to get into those scarce sort of thinking and I and rejection is going to be a part of this, and we know it is. And I'd say, yada, there are people out there saying, oh my gosh, if I don't land this right now, I'm so worried my organization is x, and we are letting those narratives take over. What is one thing you would encourage our listeners to hold fast to right now, even in the face of rejection or red tape, or having something that maybe might want to shift in our support, or maybe it's just that scarcity. How do you tell someone to hold fast? Hmm,

I mean, it's kind of, it's, it's, to me, the most important thing, and we've touched on this already, is to really hold on to your why, you know, because it's really easy to lose sight of what we're doing. I've done it. We've all done it right. Like, yeah, that could work. Yeah, I could see how that could work. And we rush into a partnership when we've we've lost tethering to our why. You know, I think about like, when we're deeply rooted in our why, and a big gust of wind comes, we're not gonna get unrooted and flow with the wind, right? We're rooted so the wind can move us back and forth, but we're still rooted in our why. And I think if we're, I would say, Look, if you're listening to this right now, and you're feeling the pressure of scarcity, of rejection and this other layer of red tape that Becky talk about, I would just say, pause for a moment, you know, and take a breath and remember your Why. Why did you step into this work in the first pill in the first place? You know, who are you showing up for? You know what change is going to keep you going, even when things get really tough. That's our purpose, and in that purpose is our power, right? It's our clarity, it's our compass. So I think that's what we need right now, is to make sure that urgency doesn't push our why into the background, that we protect that, that we speak it, that we share it. You know, we don't hide it. We share with our team, share it with our board. Share it here, right? Who are we showing up for? Why do we step into this work? What's the change that keep us, that keeps us going? Because, um, listen, that that, why is what's going to keep keep us going? There's a lot coming at us, even not in this moment of where people are feeling a lot of fear and a lot of stress and a more strain. It's just the nature of our of our work. So if we can, if we can, just know that rejection is going to happen. You know, scarcity is going to be there, but if we stay close to our why we can move not only with urgency but with integrity.

I mean, y'all download this episode so you can go back to it. Can we just, like, put this on repeat? I feel like the wisdom you're sharing, walking through is so meets this moment so beautifully. Okay, we've kind of carved out space in this series yada that we want to give homework to our listeners. And spoiler, we always write this stuff for us, too. So let's, let's be honest about this. What are some questions, maybe an exercise or reflection questions, that you could leave us with today, that we can kind of like process, take a hot second, create space to think through. Where would you guide us in that after this episode? So

I wrote down some reflection questions for all of us, and I actually did them this morning. It took me about 20 minutes of quiet time where I didn't even sit at my desk because I knew that the ding, ding, ding of the email and the slack, I just went to my coffee table and sat on the floor and with my coffee table and I have these reflection questions for us, which is my invitation to you right before your week fills up again just 20 minutes, what originally called me to this work, you know, what was it? Was it a moment in time? Was it a person? Was it some kind of a feeling? Was it a need that you saw? What originally called me in to this work? And the other question that I would invite you to think about, which I love so much, because it gets us into our bodies and that somatics of the All Knowing our body knows, where do I feel most alive and aligned in my work, right now, right? What is happening in those moments where I feel aligned and alive? Who am I with? What am I doing, right? Where in my work Am I feeling most alive and aligned? So those are the two reflection questions. And if you want a bonus, I would say, at your next team meeting or your next board meeting, bring one of those questions and invite five minutes of quiet reflection with people that are on that island with you, or that you've connected with, right? Who really love you and care about you and want to see you successful, who share your your mission and your vision. Because that's going to be again. What we keep on coming back to is this, why?

Okay, Jon and Julie, get ready. We're doing this in team meeting on Monday, so it's coming towards you. I think they're so simple, but I actually think if you get back to what you were saying before, these are rooted questions. These are rooted in our spirit, in our essence of being. This has been driving us the answer to these two questions for decades. I think it's time to go back to it in the chaos while the wind is like churning us every which way, time to get reground. Thank you. Yada,

wait, you know what I just you? Made me think of a third one that I actually did on my own. I didn't that that I think in this moment, what does it what does it look like for me this week to lead out of trust and not fear, just this week, you know, because there's so much fear right now, I'm feeling it, you're feeling it. But what, what would my leadership look like this week if I'm leading out of trust and not fear? So if, if you get through those first two ones in 20, you know, in less than 20 minutes, you might slap on that third to really think for a minute around how my leadership looks different if I'm trusting versus reacting Okay, that

was worth the bonus for all of this, please do that. And I would also say community like come ping us on social, or send us a DM or something and let us know how these this went with your team, with yourself what the response was. I actually think that this could be a really cool, activating exercise for all of us. So Yad, you've been on the podcast long enough to know how we wrap up these conversations. Can you put a bow on this topic today and drop a one good thing as it relates to this conversation? We'd love to hear what you

have. One good thing is you are already enough. There is nothing you have to do right now to earn your place in the work that you're doing, not to a funder, not to your board, not to anybody, if you're feeling that pressure right now, to contort, to chase, to prove, I just want you to breathe and to remember your why, and you're enough

my God. God is the freaking founder of my dreams, like the funder, like, who gets it? Thank you for putting humanity at the center of everything. Yeah.

What a grounding conversation on so many levels, my friend, I want to connect everyone listening to your work and to you. And I went into just fund.us which I'm going to spoil his website, and realize that I undershot what y'all funded by, like $60 million so can we give you some credit that just fund has funded over 375 million so updating my intro to just be like the work that y'all are doing is incredible. Could you connect our listeners to just fund and to how to find you online too?

Yeah. I mean, come, like you said, Jon, come to just fund.us. I mean, we are the nation's first and only common grant application platform that is the cornerstone of everything that we've built for you. We are a. Building a technology here that's by us, for us, that is rooted in what we need in this moment, which is for more money to move. And how do we get more money to move? We have to change the way we give. So we have been building, and will continue to build, a platform with equitable technologies that make it easy for funders to just know that they're adopting Best Practices right, and aligning their grant making practice with their core values through a technology that's for them, for you. And what I love about our funders, who come in here, 212 of them who are using the common app and other technologies that are really beautiful and powerful, is that they're doing this because they want they want to make funding easy. They want to make distributing funds and seeking funds easier, and they understand that our communities will win when we do that. Please go

check it out and PS, the reason you were $60 million off Jon is probably because we had that bio the first time we met. Yada, so she's raised that much money since you spent last but on the podcast,

it's moving. Money moves, like you said, Jon, at the Speed of Trust, we all, I think, have come to understand that, know that feel it, live it, and as trust builds, so money can move faster. And it's happening.

I'm so proud of you. Keep going, my heartwired friend, thank you for coming in to teach yet again and giving us the exhale that we need to rest in the right ways as we find that space between the logs.

So much gratitude. Thank you, my friend. Hi, friend. Thank you.