Pop Culture podcast 19 Feb 2024 – Everything Coca-Cola with Chris Hewitt

5:08PM Feb 18, 2024

Speakers:

Kat Brown

Helen O'Hara

Chris Hewitt

Keywords:

drink

coke

coke zero

taste

coca cola

diet coke

people

helen

day

nice

feel

flavour

put

soft drinks

caffeine

years

thought

remember

coffee

sugar

Hello and welcome back to pop culture the podcast that puts soft drinks at the top of the menu. I'm your host Kat Brown Arts journalist and author of it's not a bloody trend understanding life as an ADHD adults and with me as always is Helen O'Hara, author, journalist and lifelong teetotaler.

Hello,

I realised I just gave you the most insane introduction, which was a day. I am the podcast, Helen. Just living and breathing being audio. How are you doing today?

I am doing well. I've been having a very busy week. I've been working on a couple of big projects, but it's always been really nice week. You know? Obviously, we had our fabulous adventure last week, but this week has included Valentine's Day. And for once I went out for dinner on Valentine's Day. I know so exciting when I was like for work meal as well. I was having junkets you know, I've left the house multiple times. Pretty crazy.

Loving this for you. It's like January as well and truly buried in the ground now. Absolutely.

And good riddance. How about you? How's your weekend,

it's been pretty good. I've been trying to take copies of the next book that is coming out 49 days after my first book, which is interesting and mad timing. I've been dropping copies of that round to book shops. But I think I really need to work on my pattern. Because today, I went to a very nice independent bookshop in Wimbledon, and offered up my books. And the lady looked at me and then sort of Google nervously, and I genuinely think she thought I was some insane person who had just created a book by hand and come in and gone. Hello, will you sell this single copy of a book for me, because I keep seeing it on like Twitter all the time, like author's going and dropping off copies of their books and everything, but I'm just messing this up. So I need I need advice on how to do this in a non insane way. I

have no such advice. As you know, I'm the world's worst person at marketing myself or anything I care about. So Good times. Good times. I was heartened by a few things this week. So like I say, I went out for dinner. And I find really good soft drinks choices in both of my venue. So I went to a SAN Carlo restaurant called E sola on Valentine's night. And I went to just a bill's for for work lunch as well during the week. And both of them had a soft drinks menu, and then a sort of alcohol free, you know, beers and so on menu, and then a really good lineup of mocktails and soft mixed drinks, which was exciting. No, was there anything to challenge my love? My true love the bill of RDA. No, but we live in help, right?

I mean, your true Valentine of 2024 that my commiserations to your fiance, Andrea, but no, no,

yeah, it was love at first and smell actually even before I got to the taste of that drink. But these were these were nice. And I just again, I'm getting excited that I'm seeing a proper selection at chains of restaurants that are you know, available around the country, I think I think San Carlo actually is only in London, but it's like six different locations in London, which is a start. And I'm bills, of course is quite accessible to many parts of the UK. So it's it's you know, it's beginning to kind of spread and it's really nice to see that happening. Unrelated

to soft drinks. But the last time I was on bills, I was in Guilford. And coincidentally, the previous time that I'd been in Guilford was when I was at Sixth Form College. And on this visit to bills, I saw somebody like a young lady have about 1617 dress exactly as I was the last time that I was in Guilford so it made me that made me truly appreciate both the cycle of life and that carpenter jeans are not something that I personally wish to revisit.

Oh man, I used to live in those with a little hook for your hand. I guess it's probably for a hammer. But for me it was from my hand. Ah, fantastic.

What what grabbed you off the menu.

I had I think it was a berry spritz or a cherry and flora spritz at Bill's which was which was nice. Not overly sweet. Although definitely you could taste it there was sort of pink lemonade involved there somewhere. And then at ESA, I had something that was I have to say pretty frickin delectable. So it was let me see if I can get this right. It was an Italian ood now I'm not sure where food comes into this. The ingredients are Everly forest pineapple passionfruit and you've got a little shot of a quite a strong ginger beer on the side, which maybe I should have tipped in but I just necked the pineapple up I kind of took over the drink but in a very pleasant way. You know, it was a very night and there was a sort of it was almost like a pineapple foam on top. Yeah, sort of fruity mix. So it was sweet. It was sweet. I'm not gonna lie but it did give that impression of being a sort of I'm guessing I'm going entirely from looks and not from taste but the look of a kind of pornstar Martini I guess as soon as you mentioned

having a shot of something to go alongside. I was like there it is. When you say Ooh, did you mean like oh you d like they're quite strong fragrance. Yes,

which is I'm not sure where that comes into this drink if I'm honest, maybe they were referring to the alien race and Doctor Who I don't know. But, um, but certainly in terms of the fragrance, I wasn't getting much of that from it now.

Well, you mentioned Sweet Lemonade and I'm afraid I did not have a lovely drink on Valentine's Day. And I'm purely going to blame Marks and Spencers for this and not my own poor preparation. My husband thought he was going to be away for the day itself and obviously, you know, God forbid, so like a very sensible operational man. He went to m&s and bought the meal deal for Valentine's Day on Monday, really like gorgeous value cocky sorry, Jack and then it really lovely mushroom stroganoff pie and salted caramel procedurals, tick, tick, tick, very good. And then you got a bottle of Prosecco with it, which for 25 quid all in, in 2024. When I've seen jars of nests Cafe going for a tenner that felt like extraordinary value. But my little bugbear the non alcoholic alternative was not the rather good presenti that we had the other week, it was a bottle of raspberry lemonade. Oh, I mean, I don't quite understand how that is the equal of a bottle of Prosecco, which is dry, dry, dry. Again, my husband just sort of thought that maybe they were confused and thought that the only person interested in a non alcoholic Valentine's meal might be a literal child. I would love to frankly see a small child scraping cookies and jack out of seashell rather than being wildly disappointed. Yeah, that felt annoying, particularly irritating because I looked in the fridge the next day and realised that I just had a load of really nice, non alcoholic drinks that I just completely forgotten were there.

But this is what we're learning from doing this podcast. We're not kind of I certainly I am no assembling a sort of Avengers of, you know, bottles and cans for about a six pack and we've only drank two of them so far. So yeah, it's quite fun, but I do I do get real comfortable. Again. I am a fan of raspberry lemonade. I like it. Yes, nice. It is very sweet. And it is quite strong. As I found in that builds drink and it really does kind of take over a meal. So you're right, it doesn't do the same job. And I think we're back to millennia again and The Fat Duck last week but it doesn't do the same job of matching and enhancing flavours of the food. It's doing a completely different job which is to taste of sugar and raspberries

which is a valuable job. It's important work but it's not important work that I want with my actually incredibly adorable mushroom stroganoff pie with a little tiny pastry heart on it though, picked up and gave to Sybil. Ah

first of all, what are we drinking this week?

We're drinking that little known BS you extremely boutique carbonated drink Coca Cola zero. All right, let's

crack it open.

Now, look, we don't normally match the drink to the subject of the interview because it feels a bit matchy matchy and frankly, if we're going to do that, then we need to get our butts in gear and actually sought out sponsorship and adverts and all that sort of stuff. That's Coke Zero is the hero drink of our beloved Chris Hewitt, scion of your own empire podcast. And one of the few things that I think I've ever seen him drink yell at

me too. And I've known him for 20 years now. This is his absolute go to unfailingly so and we just thought we'd talk about that, given that also, we talked last week, obviously about Melania and the fat ducks attempts to make their own coke. It occupies such an interesting place in the firmament. And the fact is that people like Chris, as you will hear in a few minutes will go to a gourmet restaurant and order a coke gives it an interesting thing. It's a drink drunk by powerful people of having, you know, fueled Hillary Clinton, it fueled a lot of a lot of film people, a lot of film stars, a lot of musicians, you know, it's got that hit of caffeine to keep you going. But it's cold and refreshing. Unlike coffee and it's a bit less faff to drink than coffee, I guess in the sense that you don't need a barista on the go. You just need a fridge. So yeah, we thought we shouldn't actually actively avoid things that people can get easily. And let's talk about Coke a little bit.

This is the first time that I've drank coke zero in probably about 1520 years. I think when it came out, I was a devoted Diet Coke girlie. And that was largely because of working in magazines and everybody else drank Diet Coke and I was a total drinks sheep. So just went for it. And also, I don't remember enjoying the taste very much. But I don't know whether my taste buds have miraculously regrown over the last five years but this is really nice. It's

not bad is it and it does taste more like Coke. Yeah, than Diet Coke does. I will say that No, I gave up full fat coke years in years ago. But Coke Zero tastes more like it without being quite as cloying. Which is which I think is useful and important. But it's very hard to pin down the taste. Yeah,

very much. So just briefly there. You mentioned full fat coke. And I think actually that the discovery of that phrase which came in when I was in sixth form and maybe like 9899 I think that actually is the turning point for when I was like oh full fat coke well I can't drink it anymore then and sort of switched to Diet Coke yes the adverts for Diet Coke were really funny, all jokey and everything and look quite aspirational and that way that when you are a nerdy child growing up in the middle of absolutely nowhere in England you see supposedly glamorous American corporate women and think oh, maybe I want to be one of them spoiler absolutely no interest in being called. Thank you very much. Whereas Coke Zero just sort of feels like more of a neutral name, which is ironic seeing as it seems to be launched specifically to appeal to men and yet actually, it is giving me flashbacks to that. Cosy fun tastes like normal Coca Cola tastes of fun because it tastes of childhood and arguably for me one of the last times that I've been able to eat or drink anything without thinking about its nutritional value and just like I'm gonna have a slip of this and then I'm gonna go and jump on that climbing frame and go on that merry go round until I am physically sick. Even

as I say it, it's not a healthy phrase probably to use I will say in my defence My family has been known to talk about things like stainless steel milk. Because of that, please just take any any of these phrases and just put in in front of the drink and you kind of know what you're talking about. So can you get me the stainless steel milk please semi skimmed, right? Yeah, yes. Yes. Adopting that. But so yeah, so So I took full fat coke and the same same spirit but also like, you know, I'm not a health Nazi. I eat way too much chocolate for that. I do feel full fat, coke, full sugar, Coke and full sugar. Other drinks are available do really feel like you're throwing every caution to the wind and just ingesting a half a bowls worth of sugar. And that is something that I still kind of struggled to be cool with. You know, I think I think all of us should, you know, try to Yes, listen to our bodies, eat things in balance, eat everything in moderation, don't get orther what's the orthorexia obsessed with only eating the right the clean the best, the optimised product? I think that's very unhealthy. Yeah, but at the same time, when presented with a can of worms doesn't really happen anymore. But when presented with a can of full sugar, coke, I do sort of see alarm bells ringing it is very particular that way and the way that things have shifted.

Yeah, completely. It's like whenever you see people who've made big changes in their life around not necessarily diet alone, but if ever there's anything that they're feeling slightly more positive about themselves and their energy levels and everything, then ditching the sort of really sugary sodas and arguably the diet equivalents as well is fairly high up there. I had to wean myself off caffeine free diet coke a couple of years ago, because I was just I was necking it like shots. It was it was not great. And so I did that by finding one of the like fruity sparkling waters years ago. I remember going to see a celebrity hypnotherapist for a feature. Ironically, she was supposed to be hypnotising me away from my love of sweet food did not quite take but nevermind. But one of the things that she did along the way was she poured like a glass of regular Coke and put like a really filthy penny into a yes, I could read and then it came out like two minutes later and it was glistening shining like the sun. There was a full sheara all the powers transformation moment. And I mean, obviously when we're drinking Coke, we're not drinking, like the unadulterated syrup. But the fact that there are still things in it that really can just strip that sort of stuff away is yeah, it's fairly intense to see.

It's fairly intense. Yeah, but it is it is a tasty drink at the same time, you know, and yes, I did see a similar video actually, recently, I fell down on Instagram rabbit hole. And there was somebody who was restoring an old stove a small one, I don't know if it was for travel or for children, but it was a really small stove, probably the size of a microwave. And he had taken all this apart and it was absolutely rust red, fully fully covered in grossness. He he literally took it to pieces, put it in a large plastic bin and then poured two gallon bottles of cola on top of it and and then it came out and the rust just slide off. Not again, not a great advertisement to put it in your body. But of course that is like 10 litres or more of this stuff. And we don't do that, generally speaking, and it is incredibly

satisfying to see that sort of stuff done. And yeah, that's the thing I fully appreciate and own that I'm coming to any discussion about drinks with my own crackers baggage from my own past, present and future with food and drink that this Coke Zero is giving me a really lovely nostalgic lift and I for 1am Very grateful to have it in my day, Helen, hurrah.

I'll tell you something else that I did this week is I went to see a play at the house. Have some theatre last night, and I decided to get a drink there while I was waiting and they had charity as in Cherry jewellery and then T A. So I was there to see a play called double feature, which was very good, by the way. And the charity, I got the green charity, which is based on green tea, and it had some ginger in it, it was pretty low in sugar. And I thought this seems ideal. It looks very, very, you know, within a nice glass bottle, it just looks like it's going to be not healthy. And but but you know, have some taste but also not ruin my teeth, or not ruin my dinner. Yep. And it was it was very, very nice. And I didn't sleep a wink last night. So I was interested, by your mention of Caffeine Free Diet Coke, which I also have flirted with over the years. And my problem really is that it's not consistently enough available. When you go to places you know, you can get into shops, you can't necessarily get it in restaurants, things like that. But the caffeine honestly, the caffeine is a factory like you can't necessarily be necking, or I can't be necking. Hundreds of litres of this stuff either on a daily basis and expect to sleep at night

no completely, like some people are pretty like tolerant to caffeine before I started like ADHD treatment. And by that I mean the meds particularly, I could quite happily guzzle a lot of cups of coffee a day and just not really notice the effect of it. When people do actually, you can't use meds like Ned Halliwell, who's quite a big figure in ADHD writing and research, he can't use Medici, he has coffee instead. And that works very well for him. Now, for example, if I have a drink that has loads of sugar in it, I will really notice that in a way that I don't necessarily notice it if I'm eating it, or as part of a meal. And certainly some soft drinks that do have a significant amount of caffeine and can really, really creep up and do a number on you without realising it. I've also been told by my psychiatrist a number of times, and I'm finally just about listening to him now for the last six months that I shouldn't have that much caffeine at all because it could interfere with how my medication works. But for me, it took quite a long time to sort of unpick the hold and the association that coffee has now I have sort of gone back into decaf, and I don't mind that as much whereas before I felt very resentful about paying for something that was giving me nothing or as I saw it, whereas now I can just appreciate in most cases that reasonably good decaf it's

always a tricky balance because I also love a coffee or two in the mornings but you know past about three o'clock that's not going to work for me. Hey, how am coffee prices are going crazy nowadays, my one of my local places, has put it up by 50 per drink 50 P. I'm

trying to remember what a reasonable price for a cup of coffee was. I mean, press used to do their filter coffee, which incidentally was completely revolting and tasted like bad petrol that used to be 99 P a cup, whenever I go into prep now I sort of go and go wow, that much and immediately turn a circle and, and leave again. They're

about to go north of four pounds for for a coffee in mad in the centre of town. There's a lot of places now hovering at 390. Which is which is pretty crazy. So was there any drink related news this week, I did see one story, which is that LA brewery is crowdfunding. They're trying to get hounds to spend basically on marketing and distribution and just getting their drinks out there more because they think there is a massive demand for it, that they just need to reach physically reach. So they're crowdfunding for half a million ideally, and ideally a million pounds to do that. Pretty

crazy. And it's intense crowdfunding as well, like my next book, which is coming out in March was crowdfunded. Because it's a very niche subject. It's about infertility, essays about loss, the idea of being like a support group in a book. And unsurprisingly, traditional publishers are not necessarily thinking that's a very cheerful or winning topic. But I had to crowdfund 20 grand to get that made. And I'm hugely appreciative of the 700 800 strong crowd that came along with me and supported me in that way. And la brewery is a fantastic brand that can Bucha that it does is really, really delicious. It's female founded brand as well, based in Suffolk. So if they can harness the goodwill of their audience in that way, and give them that sense of contribution and ownership, then fingers crossed, that should be a winner, but I wouldn't want to be the one trying to make that amount of money. It makes me want to go and have a lie down.

Yeah, it's nightmare. I mean, all I've had to do along those lines is sort of raise funding for a marathon or something. And that was stressful enough. Yeah. Imagine how many big cells they're gonna have to do. That's how it works. Right? So

many flapjacks, Elon, so many flapjacks something that actually I would quite like us to go and do potentially. I was trying to think of the last time that you and I went out I'm not going to say clubbing realistically that we went dancing together. No think maybe it was about 2017 When we went to Hot Tub Time Machine in Brixton, which is Ace, but we had to go out at night to do that night but but there is now I'm really just noticing more of a rise in daytime clubs. So Ministry of Sound has done a couple already. They've got Fabio and groove rider coming on the second of March, and they're doing like a club from two till nine, before actually launching their big boys late night club at about 11. And then clubs emerge we have very fond memories of from Islington. They use they often sort of partner up with feeling gloomy. So you can go from Bananarama to the Smiths and back again. But they're doing a club for over 30s on the 23rd of March from three till seven, there was this lovely night called before midnight that went from seven till sort of 1130 midnight and Muslims and again so that everybody that wants to dance but not stay up massively late could go. And it's kind of amazing to see it just sort of inching back mostly so that then you can go home watch gladiators love it. I

mean, who doesn't? Who doesn't want to do that? But yeah, that it is kind of a great idea, just because, I mean, once you're in the club, who cares what time it is outside? Like, does it really matter? There are no windows? Like, how are you going to know it doesn't matter? So yeah, that's just going

through some really bad shape selling.

And these are these are these sober, or these sober clubs, or they just, it's interesting that they're daytime because people can have a slightly different experience.

It is I mean, it's interesting that you know, with clubs for emerge the daytime, one that specifically appealing to over 30s. And as I was noticing that I was I'm fairly sure there's some of our listeners who are under 30, who would actually quite like to go and in that case, guys, it's fake ID time again, you thought you left that you thought you'd left it but you hadn't something that was genuinely alcohol free intended, but seems to have gone slightly tits up from the start is Helen, I know that you're super fond of rugby. Oh, hugely fun. Rugby Yes, rugby. That's how we say it rugby sports with balls, as it were, I did actually go to Twickenham in like 2012 or something for a match. And the thing that I remember most about it is that it was I was going on like a work trip. And there was a fantastic cheese board with lunch. As literally what I remember from it, I can't remember who was playing. But what I do really like is they are they're doing a trial through the Six Nations games that they're hosting at the moment. And they're trailing an area of seating that is completely alcohol free. So you just can't drink booze whilst you're sitting in it. And the idea behind this is that they were having complaints from people who said that their view of the match was being spoiled by people constantly getting up to go to the loo to go to the bar, and then back again. And it was just like if you go to any kind of big event there is just that flow of people that time so we're going to do things that get in the way and that's a bit tiresome. However, it doesn't necessarily seem to have been initially implemented very well because there have been like some fans that have complained about the fact that they rocked up to their seats under their pints and didn't realise that they were in Booth free seating. Twickenham said that ticket buyers would have been clearly aware of the trial when booking their tickets and that they would have to take a lovely big box saying that they agreed to the terms. But some people told the telegraph surprisingly unsurprisingly that they didn't see that. And to be honest, when you're booking anything if it's something you're really keen on, you're just like, yes, agree to Terms and Conditions says sell my immortal soul. This is fine, blah, blah, blah 350 pounds? That's reasonable. Excellent, go. Yeah, for some people. Booze is quite a big part of live sports. But increasingly, you know, it's quite nice to see that there are options for people who are just a bit bored of having their view obscured or just you know, having the obligatory loud lads lads lads yelling away and and potentially spoiling the game.

And there might be people bringing kids who who would rather sit in a bloop booze free section for whatever reason you know, there's there's there's definitely I would say a market for it. But yes, probably make it really really clear to rugby fans. No disrespect, have rugby freshers in my own family. There is there is definitely an association there isn't there? Yeah,

I've actually bought tickets to a rugby game the summer. And my brother turns 40 In the summer, and my dad was 70 in the autumn. And so I've got us tickets to what pretty much the only rugby game that I could manage to find tickets for at the time. A Women's Rugby Sevens match in Paris for the Olympics are so just gonna go and soak up the atmosphere and hopefully quite a lot of food. So that'd be really nice. So yeah, better. I was gonna say a bit of rehearse the rules of rugby. Oh, my God, I'm just not made for this sort of thing. I will look it up on Wikipedia and get in again there.

What could be what could go wrong? I think it'd be great. Shall we go to our guest? Oh, yes, please. Okay, so, today's guest is Ben sickly, my colleague on the Empire podcast, our podcast host, Chris Hewitt. So Chris is obviously a journalist at Empire and one of the world's most loyal devotees of Coke Zero. Basically, after all the chat we had last week with Melania at The Fat Duck about what goes into making their own coke substitute. We thought we'd ask Chris along to talk about why he accepts no substitute for his Coca Cola favourite and why it is that people are so freakin obsessed with it anyway. So here are the two of us talking to Chris Hewitt so Hello, and welcome to pop culture Chris you it so long since I saw you It must be Gosh, hours and hours.

It's hours and hours and hours luckily up and pounding back the Coke Zero. I drink to forget it hasn't worked. anymore.

Chris, when was the last time that you were interviewed as celebrity podcast host in general king of the internet.

I think the last time I was interviewed cat was Oh, my God was bah humbug. I think I think so

basically, the only person who ever interviews you is Helen,

the only person who shows any interest. Yeah.

Well, that's nice. It's nice to highlight your special stories. It's nice that Helen shows a repeated interest.

I have his number. I'm one of a very select few people you see and that's what it is.

But the thing is, I'm extraordinarily and widely available. That is true, actually. Yeah. Yeah. I will appear on any podcast it doesn't matter what it's about. Actually it does. There are certain podcasts you know, Nazis. Nazis. I've done a background check on you both and neither of you seem to have any Nazi affiliations. So we're good,

deeply buried.

It's fine and repeated just erasure of all of our internet search history is clearly

your internet search history is right now must be the weirdest things. Mine

currently is just going back through the entire history of flavours of Coca Cola and variants there

on Well, I'm fascinated by this cat because I want to know, I want to know more about the thing I've been put into my body for the last many years. Because here's my thing about coke and I realise you guys want to ask me questions, but I'm just gonna go for it. Here's my thing about Coca Cola and Coke Zero. I could not if you put a gun to my head tell you what it tastes like. It doesn't taste like anything else I've ever tasted. I've tasted knockoff Cokes. I've tasted herbicides Cokes. I'm not even going to mention Pepsi Cola. I can do that blind taste test thing where you know, I can absolutely identify knockoff supermarket Coca Cola. I did this once at a hotel in Denver, Colorado when I was visiting in a set of The Avengers and I mentioned this in the hotel restaurant to the waiter and he did not believe me. They brought over a whole bunch of cokes and Pepsi's and Diet Pepsi and all sorts of stuff and maybe taste test him and I passed with flying colours. But I will say this honestly could not tell you what it tastes like. So what is it what's in it can't what's in it.

So it's the thing that we don't mention which is largely just artificial flavourings, and flummery technical term. That's just a different the flummery level is just sort of adjusted for each of these different flavours because again, it's like blue raspberry is not a flavour and yet I can identify that in 900 different types of soft drink and ice pop Sherry In as it is in most colours and particularly in in like Diet Coke, there's almost no resemblance to the actual fruit and yet we know it completely. The thing with Coke Zero particularly is that as soon as I tried it for the first time having come out of a fairly hefty Pepsi Max stage and therefore being like oh, this is the male equivalent of Pepsi Max and therefore I'll probably be quite on board with this.

Pepsi Max was also the male equivalent of Diet Pepsi. You can tell it is it has Max in it

I find it completely insane that these borderline identical drinks how on earth do they will taste so different? And also how is there such a specific identity to each one?

Whatever you guys told me you were doing this I was like, I'm not gonna appear on that show because you're all about cordials and and flavoured things and you're going to fat dark and tasty in specially concocted drinks. And I'm like, I know what I like. And I'm addicted to it. I'm very very open about that. And it's coke and Coke Zero not Diet Coke. No. Which is the devil's piss but coke and Coke Zero.

i Okay, I have many questions coming up at the back of this but also I mean, you are a bit of a gourmand you do go to fancy restaurants when you go to the fancy restaurants. Are you the guy who has coke?

So you are the guy that The Fat Duck literally designed their own brand coke for

see I would I would if I went to the photographer ever lucky enough to go to the Fat Duck. It's on the bucket list or the bucket list. I would absolutely have their flight of soft drinks, but I would keep the coke in reserve because I've done that in the past. You know I've had karma cola. I wasn't a big fan of it. I recognise that they have bad karma. As a result, I went to restaurants story in London, which is a two Michelin star place and it was an amazing, amazing experience. And they didn't have Coca Cola. And they brought me karma cola. And it just wasn't the same. But I'm open and willing, but I'm definitely like guy, he goes, looks at the soft drink menu and goes, Okay, do you have do you have Coke Zero and I will pay six pounds for a little 200 millilitre bottle, I'll do lab

I can confirm he literally does do those. He he does not like it when Coke Zero is not available on demand serious,

I completely get the karma cola thing because a lot of what we've been doing chatting to makers and also drinkers of non alcoholic alternatives and equivalents and that sort of thing. Lots of people have come back and said it's really just frustrating when you want the thing and then you have the thing that's trying to be the thing, but like the middle of the flavour is missing or it just doesn't hit the spot and the way it should. What about Coke Zero for you is I mean, it sounds like it is like reassuring and comforting and sort of predictable. Yeah,

I think I think it is. And I have so many little weird coke slash Coke Zero foibles. Not only could I not tell you what it tastes like, I honestly I've thought about this now and again, I'm not entirely sure I like it, and yet, I drink it. And one of the things about Helen can attest this as well. All the things about cooks here are the way I approach Coke Zero, I approach it from the north, under cover of darkness. I cannot drink Coke or Coke Zero on its own just can't. I always have to have something to snack with it. I've tried to drink it on his own. And then out but halfway through. I'm like, I'm not sure I like this to be honest. But there's something about the way I don't know This is so strange. The fizziness of coke is so particular. And that's a big thing. The fizziness that hit of the fizz of the back of the throat when of your quenching your thirst for the first time. That is a big big thing for me. And I have never found a fizzy drink that comes close

is the exact level of bubbles,

the level of bubbles the spacing of the bubbles, you know I self carbonated for a while when I was growing up. You ever had a SodaStream didn't come close. Not even close. It's not just a taste thing. And the clean sugar Enos of some of the other coke substitutes, I don't know it is the space of the bubbles. We need Professor Brian Cox in here to talk about the physics of it.

We did actually have a beverage technician whose job is to create versions of existing drink sometimes with lower sugar levels as the sugar tax requires to literally create every single element to make this perfect. So like from the ring pool that pause between getting the ring pool and then getting that bubble spacing all of that stuff. We sort of look at these drinks and go oh yeah, there it is fine. Chuck it in the basket. But every single element of these particularly for the massive brands really, really been thought over. That's wild. Yeah,

I love it. I love it, I think is controversial. I've read the Mark Thomas book. I've searched my soul A times and I'm sure people will judge me. But yeah, I'm a bit of a bit of a coke freak, which in the London media usually means something else. When I first arrived in London in 2001, and it became apparent I had a coke problem. It was it was a different kind of the one that most people had. I'm a collector of coke memorabilia and not like wild collector. But you know, LM was we went to Florida. Yeah, we did. Me and Helen and James from the Empire podcast. We went to the galactic starcruiser rip. And we had an afternoon off and we went to this Coca Cola store in Florida and I was I was just in hog heaven. It was amazing. And I've been to the World of Coca Cola in Atlanta, which is the home of coke. And that was incredible. It was like a it was like a little pilgrimage

talk us through your time i When did it become Coke Zero because you drank coke? Like full of sugar. Is that right? Full Fat coke. Yeah, for a long time. Was it always fun? Because you you're like me, right? You'd never drank very much, I think and so it's always been about finding something else. That's fun for a night out, I guess. Yes.

Well, I don't even I don't even drink to excess soft drinks I drink when I go out with friends and they're all drinking then they're not going back three, four or five pints. I will quite often nurse one, maybe two soft drinks at most. And I have a very, very short threshold in which I can even drink the drink. If it becomes too warm. I won't drink it. If it becomes too flat. I won't drink it. So first 1015 minutes of a drink is the optimum window for me. But the timeline. I mean, I don't drink I've never drunk teetotal all my life. There's a number of reasons for that. One of the main reasons is I don't like the taste of alcohol. I never have. I've tried alcohol. I've tried wines. I've tried beers. I've tried whiskey, I've tried wicked. I've tried something I found them all to be wanting. So I've always been a soft drink guy from a very early age. I'm talking like five six because my mom and dad had absolutely no control. No, I was drinking Coca Cola and I just loved it. And I have a very, very strong memory as a kid of going to my godmothers in Banbridge, Northern Ireland. And she gave me a glass of coke. And this is such a strong memory for me. It got to about lat much at the bottom of the glass, there's not that much left. And there was just something about the way I tasted it at the end and the way that they're the the combination of the phase and the taste or the way I could describe it. If you put a gun to my head once again, just lured me in, I don't know. Are you sure they don't put cocaine in this stuff anymore? Cap because it sure feels like it from that moment. As far

as I know, there are not yet any 12 Step groups for soft drinks or indeed, cola.

I am mainly ejected these days have I mentioned that?

This is an interesting part of it then. So when did you switch from coke to Coke Zero when it came out? So what 2005 I think it was right.

Yeah, I don't remember doing it. I don't remember there being a conscious moment when I did it. But I remember looking back at Do you remember we did the bond Athan for Empire?

Yes, I do. Yeah. So you watched all of the Bond films back to back over a weekend and day and night.

This was a head of the release of Casino Royale in 2006. And myself and Nick dissembling and Sam toy, we decided to watch all 20 Bond films in a row for the magazine and we had a photoshoot. And we were in the empire offices doing this for nearly two days, nearly 48 hours straight. I look back at the photographs of that and there's loads of cans of Coke Zero like six packs of Coke Zero just spread around because I was trying to get a caffeine head as well trying to stay awake. But also I must have switched to Coke Zero by that point. I have no recollection of it again, put a gun to my head and said When did Coke Zero come out? Chris? I would say 2012 2013 But no 2005 2005 According

to Wikipedia,

so this is the thing that's keeping me alive. I think Helen because as you know, don't drink don't smoke, don't do drugs. But don't exercise and don't eat well. I think those two things counteract each other. But also if I had been drinking not a Coke, regular Coke full fat coke for the last 19 years now I would have been dead or I would have no teeth left. And so Coke Zero I think is the thing that's been keeping me alive.

So what why Coke Zero and not Diet Coke. Is it marketing? They're both aspartame, devils pears. I mean I taste

is very different is vastly different. Okay,

we've established that you can't describe what any of these drinks tastes like, which I will completely let pass because I've been trying to do so in my head and all I can think of is like cola and that's just not helpful in any way. So what about instead? How does it make you feel when you drink it? And how can how do you compare that to eg full fat coke Diet Coke? What makes Diet Coke the devil's piss that Coke Zero something that literally fuels you that black tie weekend? Like all the bombshells?

Well it wasn't like initially a Diet Coke Zero was a bit of an acquired taste. It took me a little while and I just thought I'm I'm I'm doing the right thing here to zero sugar. Initially, I was like this has got zero tastes like the sweetness of Coke was a big thing for me but now it is born his diet coke when I have tried diet coke over the years I don't know what seems to be like an accurate quality to Diet Coke which I just I've never liked. I also don't like the design of the kind I don't like the colours. I don't like the colours I got is

this a Liverpool thing? You're a Liverpool?

No it's not. No Liverpool playing silver and grey the way kids aren't quite often silver, silver and red quite often so I'm totally okay with that. That's totally fine.

There is certainly a belief in marketing terms that Diet Coke was a woman's drink and is there some lingering sense that that's simply just not for you? It doesn't feel like it was made for you.

Let me just lay back in the couch here and

or is it simply the thought that perhaps drinking it is going to make you desperate to clean some windows but without a t shirt on?

Cats you know me that would be a terrible prospect for everybody. Honestly, it might be the word diet. I can think it might have a problem with that zero maybe sums up how I feel about myself. So

Dr. Freud Oh no, it's

a diet diet. I don't know I've always had a bit of a thing about health and being healthy and stayin alive. I genuinely think that although I haven't done it for a while at the taste of Diet Coke was really off putting and quite hard and quite bitter and was so far removed from Coca Cola and how that tasted and it just wasn't interested I gave Coke Zero a whirl and then Coke Zero eventually I think after about two or three weeks of really just going for it clicked with me probably the way that Diet Coke would have done had I stayed the course but because Coke Zero is even healthier than Diet Coke. I don't need to go back and try Diet Coke again if I go to Diet Coke and backsliding Okay,

so healthier in the sense of what is this because it is coke has more caffeine than Coke Zero Diet

Coke has 1% of something and cokes here has 0% of something.

And that's science.

And I looked this up in a book and one thing is more than 0% have something

to do in my mind here.

Well Oh my god. I mean just do I get so much you do get a tree ego I've literally got my little pot of riving Sybil doggy kibble here. It's all for you, Chris.

It's also a med Scible cat don't don't think I haven't noticed

I would be delighted to bring her into the office wearing a giant Coca Cola coloured bow, as I recently did for Valentine's Day, the foci myth about changing habits in theory, it's supposed to take 21 days in reality, it's more like 66 Was it literally just that the sugar aspect wanting to try something different that catchy fixed on wanting to make Coke Zero part of your routine figure

was I must have liked it more than I perhaps have remembered. Otherwise, I would have just cast aside immediately. We we all we all remember New Coke, don't we? Who we all the horrible shutters of New Coke. I also think at the time I had just come to Empire. And I've been there about four years or so. And I was very aware that I do eat terribly. And I have a sweet tooth. People listen to this. They may be thinking, Well, surely you're diabetic Chris. And somehow I've managed to dance through the raindrops of that one one day. I'm sure there's a bullet with it. But I was very conscious of how much sugar I was ingesting around when I came to London 2004 2005 Stuff like that. And there were certain people in the office who were perhaps poking fun at my diet or lack thereof, Helen No, it wasn't you. It wasn't you know, other people.

I am in no position to throw stones. We went to bodines together Chris

did we lay down the middle and bind together and I was a tasty one too. So I think I was a little bit stung by that. And I was looking for something maybe bit healthier. And then lo and behold, Coke Zero came along. Has coffee ever

crossed your I mean, obviously it's crossed your path. We're journalists it's basically just waved in front of us along with films and wine. But did that ever become a thing for you don't

like coffee don't like tea and I don't like coffee I'm I'm deeply deeply weird when it comes to stuff like that. And you know, I'm Northern Irish. I'm a journalist you think that this stuff would be ingrained that my alcohol will be mainly blood poor or vice versa. It just never really came to pass and coffee I don't like although I love a tiramisu. figure that one out. It's the cream. Yeah, it's a sugar in the cream and love the sugar in the cream. My mum loved tea. She was one of those Northern Irish cliches where she had 15 cups of tea before she got out of bed in the morning. I just never really got on board with that Coke was my drink of choice. From a very, very early age. I dabbled with some some other things. I've had a lilt and I've been known to lilt from time to time before they it's no longer available right and club orange when I go home to Northern Ireland, I'll have a club orange, because that is great. And isn't really widely available over here. But you know, from a very, very early age, I can remember the fridge being stocked with coke. And I remember also at school, secondary school bambridge Academy kind of falling in with like some of the My longest lasting friendships were forged in the crucible of Coca Cola. The kids who didn't drink kind of found each other. We were all addicted to Coca Cola, I have to keep making that very clear. We were all addicted to Coca Cola as we walk around to each other's houses and go around with big bottles of Coca Cola and change bags filled with chocolate and crisps or we would just watch films and play video games. It was like we were 1617 years old and kids our age at that point were already going out and getting drunk. I remember to my oldest friends Ross and Phil discovering guys who were drinking even more Coca Cola than me and I was like what this is not possible but they would come around to my house have an evening and they would bring two two litre bottles of Coca Cola each and they would just drain them and I was astounded by this and they wouldn't put them in the fridge either. And I'm very much a purist Coca Cola has to be nice cold and all that sort of stuff. I want to give this warm and I remember one time we were walking in Banbridge we just gone down to the filling station. This is such a rock'n'roll story. We'd gone down to the filling station to load up for the night on Coca Cola and chocolate bars. Remember drifters and crisps. Do remember roast beef and mustard brown onions. Oh my god. All that stuff. And we were walking up the hill to my friend Ross's house. And we passed our old English teacher Mr. Taylor. It was his Friday night because rock'n'roll and he went alright lads, clearly you're having a good night. And because we had big blue bags that for most kids, our age would be filled with like alcohol and all sorts of stuff. And we were like, Yes, sir. We're having a big night. It's really big night. And then we go we got back and we both had a Mars bar. Yeah, it's that kind of I was never cool. It was never rock'n'roll. But

yeah, it is a tribal allegiance to coke. And I mean, you talk about New Coke. So New Coke was this attempt to futz with the formula in 1985. In focus groups and interest groups apparently New Coke scored Off The Charts like it beat coke in every single test they could come up with at these marketing groups it was like New Coke all the way and then they tried to launch it and replace people's coke with this other drink and essentially as I understand it the entire population of the world rioted and and burned burned the houses of the executives concerned to the ground and and Lynch them all or something I'm not clear on the details but I think it's something along those lines Yeah. Is it it's a tribal identity. Yeah, thing isn't it? It is it

absolutely is the Coke versus Pepsi thing is real it absolutely is real in the same way that liverpool vs Milan it Israel the same way the Beatles versus Rolling Stones is real the same with an Apple versus not Apple is real you know it's it's weird. I don't know whether what it was like for you guys whether I don't know what this is like something I do or something silly guys do but you know you do become very tribal about stuff. It becomes ingrained in you from a very early age that

particularly when you don't drink alcohol, which Helen and I have discussed ad nauseam almost about how this is very incorrectly but in in Britain, kind of inevitably, that's seen as a signifier of being an adult. And so you go from the fabulous Coca Cola stage when as a kid, you can just fill yourself with sugar and then go around. And I mean, I've never managed a cartwheel in my life. But theoretically cartwheel through your childhood, feeling fabulous and having a great time. But then if you're not moving to I don't know, whiskies are us or gin with the flavour of broken glass and that sort of stuff. It's like, what do you do next. And when I gave up booze in 2019, I immediately switched allegiance to black coffee, which I was already very keen on. But I mean, I drank it. When I went to dinner parties, I drank it all the way through the day. It was like the candle advert, but like with significantly more caffeine, and it was only when I A Few Years Later managed to relinquish my grip on that and start drinking other things. Yeah, and not for me chase what I was missing from the alcohol. I was trying to get rid of pain and, and all sorts of stuff and social anxiety, but also like, who was I? What did I drink if I wasn't drinking this incredibly nerdy type of wine or something that became like a little, I mean, a fairly significant identity crisis for me. Whereas now thank God, we've just been to the fat dark, and I can confidently say along with Helen, I am the person that really likes drinks that have no whiskey in them and yet, are sort of whiskey adjacent goods. That identity piece is, I think, a huge part of why we love anything,

it isn't a thing, I guess, I guess probably my Coca Cola addiction was a big part of my identity, especially when I did go to university and I struggled to fit in socially. So the third year of my university was just a bit just a complete Nutter write off, I really left my house and didn't really socialise. And when people were saying goodbye to each other at the end of the year, I didn't go to any of those parties or any of those farewells, I just really felt like it wasn't fitting in at all. Again, Paige and Dr. Freud. I don't know what was going on there. Only when I came to to London as well, when you move into the media, I would joke about it. But I was terrified. I was genuinely terrified. Because not drinking is a big thing. For me. It's a very serious choice that I've made. And I made it from a very, very early age, I knew I was about 11 or 12. I was never going to drink alcohol. It's not a religious thing. I'm not religious at all. It's just something I knew I wasn't going to do. And I tried it over the years I have tried it because there's so much pressure Oh, try this. Try this. You don't know what it's like until you try it as he Okay, I'll give it a go. I'll give it a go. And it's like this is horrible. How can you fish it? A friend of mine who almost trained himself to become a beer drinker, and now is a bit of a beer connoisseur. He said it takes a year takes a year. And so I do not have that kind of time to commit to drinking something I don't like I'm not going to do it. It was okay. But I was a journalist. First of all, because I was living at home I was living in Northern Ireland, I was insulated. But then suddenly you find yourself in London and you don't know anyone and you're trying to fit in to an industry and at the time magazine that has a very hard drinking culture. And I felt so apologetic about not drinking and I felt so judged for not drinking. And I think one of the best things that could have happened at the time was the editor of empire at the time, Emma Cochran didn't drink also. And although she wasn't around them, because I was actually covering her maternity leave, not as editor, they wouldn't be like mad. But she was there for a few weeks, at least before she left with Nia to have a baby, have a baby, have a baby. And that kind of made me feel a little bit more at ease. But I could feel it sometimes when I went to the pub after after work with some of the people who were there. Oh, lovely, lovely people. And they were very, very welcoming and accepting. But I always felt a slight undercurrent of he's not drinking therefore he's not one of us. But it's interesting that empire now is so different. It's so it is so changed the drinking culture has has gone and actually it's quite a few Tito bottlers slash non drinkers slash not very heavy drinkers that at the magazine now, which is great, Helen, maybe you and I made some small part in that and I'm not condemning it in any way, shape or form it is what it is. No, no, not at all. You know, but I felt I felt for a long time, like I just I was I was really nervous about not drinking and will I be charged and castigated and thrown out basically. And I

think actually, I mean, it's lucky that you liked coke because in those days and even now you know, if you go to you know, we go to a lot of film screenings we go to to junkets to do interviews with filmmakers, we go to all these film related events, and very often the only non alcoholic choice or one of two along with sparkling water is Coke, Coke Zero, right? I mean, sometimes I know you've had your troubles your travails when it's been Diet Coke, but generally, this is a drink you can actually get it feels like it's enough part of film culture that it's there

and you've seen me walk away. You've seen me actually not drink anything. If there's no coke. I'm just like, No, I'm good. I'm good.

I have secrets. I think it was you was telling me the other day that there was a certain Hollywood producer. Yeah. Who is who was a coke addict. Now we won't we won't name names.

But Coca Cola. We should again make like, we can name that name.

But what what was that story you were telling me?

I think we can name names because I think this is pretty fairly is it? Okay, okay. So Jeffrey Katzenberg, the story goes that whatever he was coming up at Paramount in the 1980s that he when he was a fast rising executive on the scene that he had a model in place where his assistants uh, he would put his hand out palm open and if he freshly cold can of diet coke wasn't slapped into that pan within 15 seconds there will be hell to pay now again not very rock'n'roll because the Diet Coke but that is the most badass story I've ever heard. And it is something I aspire to. And I often when we're recording the podcast cat, I will often put my hand out with my with my palm open. And as Helen slap a can of Coke Zero into it.

I do not No, no, no. Well,

I was just thinking Helen is going to be a freaking nightmare on this podcast tour.

Oh, he sent an extensive writer already. It's just one line over and over and over again. It just says Coke Zero and in the fridge put Coke Zero in the fridge just over and over. It's like It's like the shining?

Well, actually, that brings me in mind of another story. I've heard that I'm not going to share the name of this person. But there was a famous American actor who years ago came into the UK to shoot a film and there was a young and callow assistant who was working on that film who was assigned to that actor and the actor brought him over and said, Oh, hey, by the way, I like I think it was 1000 pounds worth of popcorn in my trailer place waiting for me whenever I get back from the day's filming. And this guy absolutely panics. Like you only gave him 1000 pounds. How do I do this? How do I get away get 1000 pounds worth of popcorn. But he managed to do it. He ran around London he called up this video before mobile phone before internet. They called him everywhere he could find got loads and loads and loads and loads and loads of popcorn and put it like all over bedecked liberally this guy's trailer. And this actor comes off a long day's shooting opens his trailer door expecting to find 1000 pounds worth of popcorn. That's exactly what he got. But he was angry. Why was he angry folks? Because popcorn was his codename for a cocaine was very, very, very upset. So there you go.

There's too many euphemisms for cocaine. In the 90s and journalism it was fruit and flowers. It's just like guys, we just we just need one list. Just Just one. Yeah, break it down. Chris, thank you so much for coming. And at what being on Dr. Peppers couch today. I guess. That

guy I hate that guy. A lot of fun. Going from hero to zero with you guys. I hope that some of what I've said has been usable one or two bits. I'm pretty good. Excellent. I will drink. It's lovely. Well, Elizabeth sitting there for so long. It's not warm and flat. So ah, disaster. Oh, thanks. podcaster and priceline.com forward slash pod tour. We're going on tour. We're in Birmingham March 1 Norwich March sixth ship March 13. Dublin March 21, and Manchester slash Salford because they're gonna get antsy about that. March 28. So go now Ticketmaster, Dakota, UK. We're gonna be doing a tour. It's gonna be amazing. Yay. Whoo. Go everybody.

I'll put it in Troy pro once again. I

have never had okay. Just want to say that for the record. It may feel like that sometimes, but no, imagine if I did Jesus.

No, I refuse.

I feel touched by an angel, if not an icon. Helen had the Chris Hewitt on our podcast.

I mean, I can't get rid of him really. It was it was very kind of Chris to come along and I am actually grateful to him. Thank you. And also if you would like to hear more from him, of course you can hear him every week on the podcast. You can read him in the pages of I'm from magazine monthly, and he and I are actually going on tour around the UK and Ireland. With your podcast in March we're going to be in Birmingham, Norwich, Sheffield, Dublin and Salford. So if you'd like to go along to that, that you can find all the details at Empire online.com/pod tour plug finished plug done.

That was beautiful. I appreciate all the plugs. We got anything in the mailbag. This week we

have a bunch of messages and mostly on Twitter, because I put a shout out. And I got a few people asking me some questions mostly about coke because I told them we were talking about cokes era. So I've got Roni genders at Roni g 87. asking, What's your favourite flavour of Coca Cola? Is For me it's Cherry Coke Zero not full fat Cherry Coke, Cherry Coke Zero. Very, very important distinction there. I will say a cherry coke is quite, quite nice, quite good. I'm partial to a lemon myself very controversially, I think. Yeah,

yeah, I think I went through a phase of trying to find as many as I could. It is the childhood taste of cherry coke. I don't mind if it's Coke Zero. If it's regular Coke, if it's Diet Coke, it's got Sherry attached to it. I'm just I'm gonna plug that I'll be very happy. There is something undefinable about it. Just as Chris was unable to describe the flavour of Coke Zero coke at all. It is just something in and of itself. And that I find completely delightful.

I've been trying to think about what it tastes of, as well. And I think when when Melania was talking about, you know, the ingredients in there as last week, that made sense to me. It's like, oh, yes, it's a boiled root, essentially, then sweetened with caramel. And that may be completely wrong. But in my head, that's now what it is. And that makes sense. Normally,

when we describe how things taste, it's because we've got the whole foods equivalent that we can relate it to. I don't know about you, Helen, but I've not been to Ghana recently and therefore I've been unable to dig out a kola nut to then spend the day chewing which is remiss of me and I would like to do that.

But yeah, you're right. I think it's it's hard to refer to anything somewhat similar question from bad penguin at Jess. S C. H L Tian, I don't know what's the one coke flavour combination you absolutely loathe lime, cherry, vanilla, lemon, etc. is the one that absolutely sets you off. I'll be honest, I thought I was gonna hate vanilla. I thought it was gonna be too much of a muchness, but I thought it was actually quite nice when I finally got my hands on some well I was disappointed not to like was I tried that coke galactic thing that they did last year that had all the cool thing on the can and I was like galactic that sounds like me. I like sci fi and bind to like this flavour and it just tasted of candy floss or something.

Oh, yeah. No, no, that's not wanted. I really struggled with Coca Cola twisted strawberry. I mean, what about that doesn't sound amazing? The answer is all of it completely revolting, just vile. It turns out that strawberry and coke are just two flavours that should not go together. And that's odd because actually if you've got crap tasteless strawberries, shove some balsamic vinegar and sugar on them and you've just rescued fruit and that was sort of what I was assuming this is gonna taste like like just bad no thanks just

know just know when Yeah, I had that does kind of surprise me as well. But Hmm, okay. Noted. We'll stay away from the strawberry flavour and non coke related question now from Damian Fenton at defence and 21. He says questions I've been asked when I tell people I don't drink. Is it a medical condition? Or you're a recovering alcoholic? Is there alcoholism in your family? Or no, by the way, some people find a non drinker to be a tough concept to grasp. Have you come across similar bewilderment?

Oh, no, no, everybody has been totally fine throughout my entire life. I'm sure the same as fate is the same for you, Helen.

So so true. Yeah. But really what you know, I'm always kind of quite happy to say now I just never started no reason it's not religious. It's not moral. It's not a judgement on you or anyone else. I just didn't start drinking. And that always seems to then throw people and then I what my particular least favourite reaction is the panicked a why give up drinking once you know for dry January, I did dry January two years ago,

I did have a problem.

I'm like, I don't care. Like with the greatest well in the world, I don't care if you did dry January two years ago, because I don't judge you for drinking. I think it's fine if you drink and I think it's fine if you don't drink. So it just always seemed like a really, it's almost like a defensiveness. Yeah, just to me being in the room, not drinking, which I don't that I don't love that. I'll be honest, I really don't know

completely. It was something I really noticed in my teens and 20s that any person who didn't drink booze was sort of like, oh, you the fun sponge sitting in the corner judging us. I think that was just partly because alcohol was just something that was loosely used to sort of tie a group together. And that would all be on the same plane or something that, you know, it was something super particular about booze. It wasn't something that if you didn't take drugs or you didn't smoke dope or something, people were totally fine with that. And that was okay. But if you didn't do this one thing, it was odd. It's something that I've noticed the lesson. Yes. As I've got older, like through my 30s I mean, to be fair, in my 30s, every other person was running marathons or doing insane you did once. Yes, exactly. And then like now in my 40s, people are either much more chill about people doing their own thing, or they've got kids responsibilities, or they just react badly to booze in a way that they didn't when they were younger, and aren't that fussed about it so much. It is nice to be able to not have to worry so much about what people say. Yeah, and it does mean that when people say something like that, it's a bit more of a surprise. You

Oh, I haven't had to deal with this in years. Oh, okay, we're back here. Are we okay? What fun for you? The questions never entirely stop Damien. But I hope that they get last less often than perhaps they used to. We also by the way cat have influenced somebody at Karen Lee 1970 has gone out and ordered some non eight and the light set of non 15 as well, which sounds pretty amazing. Non eight is torched apple and oolong flavour, which I insist we

get on. Pretty much delicious. This is the Melbourne I think it's Melbourne that are certainly Australian. Not so bad with geography. But the wine alternative that we had tempered with a little bit of chamomile syrup at The Fat Duck last week did we mentioned we went to the Fat Duck? Helen, I

don't know if we've mentioned it enough cat.

I don't think we have I mean, did we mentioned that we'd been there three times, three times. Exactly. revolting. But still Yeah, so that is very exciting because it was completely delicious. And also didn't taste like something it just tasted like itself, which was awesome. All in favour of that

I will be following I think in Karen's footsteps and trying some more flavours myself because I do want to mix some more drinks. I think that's going to be something we're going to be trying over the next few weeks is just making some combinations.

So whilst you're away on tour, you're going to go to some alcohol free bars and I'm finally going to get my ass in gear and go to club sodas tasting bar in Covent Garden. They've had that open for a while and I'm just dying to go and I might go and do one of their classes actually they do some really good mixology classes elsewhere, Amanda, a mutual pal of ours from publishing messaged in to flag that folks in St. Leonard's on sea are having an alcohol free drinks night on Thursday 29th of February that is from 5pm to 9pm. And they're going to be serving drinks using pentire three spirit and then teas and coffees as well. And that sounds absolutely gorgeous and a nice excuse for a trip to the seaside parar

I think that's about it for this week isn't it is

I'm going to sit here and stroke this lovely cold can of Coke Zero against my face. Oh my other rather nice decoration on it. That's quite beautiful. And if you are similarly obsessive about any kind of drink, whether it's Coke Zero or otherwise, if you've got a favourite drink that you'd like to share with us flag up something that we're basically idiots for not covering or any other non booze related gossip, then please email us for at pop culture drinks podcast@gmail.com And you can also see what where we've been drinking lately on Instagram where we're at pop culture drinks podcast, and you can also find Helen and I on Twitter, ex coke zero mark Twitter flavour or whatever you're calling it these days. Also pop culture is on bookshop.org You can read our books, our guests books and other books we like while helping to support the show. If you just go to book shop.org and search for pop culture soft drinks podcast,

and wait for the weekend this week, so I will be exploring drinks in another part of the country. I

will probably just be in South London so I will at least try to get out of zone three and actually do something imaginative. But have a brilliant week everybody lots of love and take care.

Keep drinking.

Stick now it's I

come up with anything sensible? Oh well. Neither of us like

uses words for a living