And I'm Madeline Walden and this is Aquarium of the Podcific. A podcast brought to you by Aquarium of the Podcific. Southern California's largest aquarium. Join
us as we learn alongside the experts in animal care, conservation and more.
Welcome back to Aquarium of the Podcific. I'm Madeline Walden, the aquariums digital content and community manager.
And I'm Erin Lundy, conservation coordinator for mammals and birds.
I'm very excited. For today's episode, we're going to talk to agriculture as Heather pens. And we're also going to hear from a very special guests. I think our first animal guests on the podcast, I think so
his name is Lola, his name is low love, he is a good bird. Lola, if you haven't guessed is one of our birds that we have here at the Aquarium and he is actually a program or Ambassador animal. What that means is that Lola is a very special animal who goes out and interacts with guests and also does shows, and in that way actually provides a lot of educational messaging, but it kind of provides some context to why we should care about some of these conservation messages. And so Heather is bringing Lola in which we're very excited to have a bird in the studio. It's very, it's a good time. I know we're so excited. What kind of bird is Lola Lola is a sulphur crested cockatoo. And you will hear in the episode or you won't hear in the episode because Lola turns out was very shy during the day he was very, very shy. And that's okay. Birds can be shy and to be honest, in a totally silent Green Room. Recording Studio. I can
why took me a while to get used to it. I
get it, like lack of external sound must be very strange for an animal so although Lola was very shy during our interview in the studio, we do have some really cute audio clips of Lola externally post interview posts in her post interview rundown we had to do a debrief debrief with Lola be like how did you feel? What do you think about that episode,
and he had a lot to say, I'm excited for you to hear.
Lola is one of the cutest Ambassador words and I'm not biased or anything. I just I do see him a lot. And he is often going out and meeting guests. And he
makes people laugh. Oh, he cracks me up.
I just I don't think I ever really realized that birds can be funny. And I actually think he's being funny. He's being
funny. For sure he knows it. Because when you laugh,
then he just makes fun of your laugh. And that's extra funny. So he's an amazing bird.
Just being in a quiet office and hearing Hello.
Yep. And he's just fine. He does say I love you. And he says, I think Hi Lola. Mostly Hola. That's like a big one for ya. So, Shark goes like that, too. And then he imitates a sea lion. He does a lot of you'll hear it.
It's way better when he does it. I
promise. It doesn't sound terrible. But in addition to Lola as a wonderful guest, Heather pens is one of our agriculturist who has been instrumental in training some of these animals to participate in different like face to face interactions with guests, but also with our bird shorts, which is a relatively new like program that we have, where essentially our ambassador birds get to come out and do a demonstration prior to the shows that we have in our Pacific Visions. And they are so cool. And I get to watch her develop them from sort of the ground up, like picking the music and picking the backgrounds we want. And she's trained the words also to participate along with our agriculture team. And our birds are doing some really cool they're so cool. We have a hawk flying around in our theater, like,
come on down. There's a hawk, there's a hawk here, there's a human side, a different programming animal. We
have a red footed boobie no one has a red flag. Very few institutions have red footed boobies. They're pretty underrepresented. So I'm clearly very excited about birds. We have a lot of different cool animals that are all participating in these bird shorts. And it's just cool to see animals getting out and sort of fulfilling a mission and, you know, being a part of the outreach that we do with our guests while they are still living, his incredibly fulfilled and happy life. And part of that for these animals is going out and like stretching their witness. Yeah, it is very enriching for them. And I can tell Lola choice to field trips, even if he did not enjoy today's interview because it was a very strange,
I think he was mostly mad that it wasn't just him being interviewed. He likes to have so why is she here? Why does she get a mic? And I don't really understand.
I think we would be remiss if we gave a Berta microphone just packed backpack and then the screaming in it.
That's I think what the people want. That's true. I think that's what our audience wants. We'll have that recorded episode just hosted by Lola bus into the microphone.
If you guys want that. Please let us know. We'll do well. I'm not above it. I'm not above an entire episode where we asked animals answer that is fun. Oh, we
should interview Parker.
at all it
does it he does.
He'll sneeze on the microphone. Perfect. Anyway,
so Well, I your allergies.
So Heather and Lola have been wonderful. Guess I'm very excited to talk a little bit more about sort of what it means to be an ambassador bird and sort of what training goes into that because it is also very different than some other types of training that we do. And yeah, we're gonna get to learn about a really, really cool animal today. And Lola
shallots either. It's a really fun episode. Let's get into it. All right, everybody. Welcome back. We are here today with Heather pens. Who is a agriculture's here at the Aquarium Pacific. Is that your current job title right now? Heather?
Yeah, that is correct. Clean of birds.
I think that's actually yeah,
I think it actually felt uncomfortable saying agriculturist because they feel like you know, Queen of birds just suits you so much better. I'll take it.
What is aviculture?
It is the someone who studies and cares for birds.
That makes a lot of sense as to why you work with.
But I know you work with other animals besides birds. We're gonna get into that too. Yeah. Doesn't it doesn't encompass everything, I guess. I guess that's kind of how it is at the aquarium your show doesn't necessarily encompass all the animals you work with.
That's what we've learned over the course of our podcast is people are like, Oh, I work with octopus. But I also feed the sea lions and you're like, Okay, go last week's
amazing. How long have you been at the aquarium?
This is my going into my fifth year. Nice. Wow, really? Yeah. I started off as a volunteer for about a year and a half. And then I was hired. I just got my little anniversary email. Oh, yeah.
That's incredible. What about life before the aquarium what was what's your background
in us? I went to school at America's Teaching Zoo, which is a school at North it's just a two year program and you graduate with a certificate working animals talking about animals, pre written pre veterinary courses, care, restraints, handling all that stuff. And so I actually had a job at an aviary in Salt Lake City the day I graduated, so I had that's packed up and ready to go.
Was it lined up for you? Like, partially through your school? Did you meet the people
through? Yeah, they did the interviews at the school. That was the only place that came? Probably because my boss, that facility was a previous students. So
that makes sense.
Networking very important. Yeah.
I think it's everyone's had such a different background on this, like in terms of where they came from, like, I'm pretty sure Jeff is a marketing background. You know, everyone has like something different. And so it's funny to hear really the full spectrum of like, I went to a Teaching Zoo, and I learned how to do this properly from like a school. And then me was like, yeah, one day someone asked if I liked frogs, and I said, Yeah, sorta. And then now that's my thing. So it's kind of cool to see the full spectrum of animal backgrounds and stuff. I
love it. It is really cool to see. Awesome, well, okay, what is your, I guess, like day to day like at the aquarium,
it's pretty full, actually. So as an agriculturist, I come in, and I take care of the birds. And I currently am managing the large aviary, the lorikeet aviary, and then I also care for the animal ambassadors along with a great team of people. And but what's nice is I don't, it doesn't just stop there. I also get to help with sea lions, and a bunch of other things. And I also get to do presentations with those animal ambassadors. Very cool. Yeah,
it's been fun to sort of utilize people's background and experience and you have experience working with sea lions before, right?
Right. I actually went to that school to work with marine mammals really. But I grew up my mom was affiliated with an animal rehab, wildlife, rehab, and we always had birds growing up. So I grew up raising and sparrows, and, and crows. So I went to that school to be a marine mammal trainer. But then
the birds got
every facility has birds, and even an aquarium.
I know, that's one of our questions later on. It's like, why does it carry that burden to that? I say, why not?
Sure. Why not?
Everything's connected.
I love it. Well, tell us a little bit about the ambassador program, what what is the ambassador program, what our ambassador birds
I am very excited about our program is up and coming. And so we've always had an ambassador, animal ambassador program. And recently, there has been more of a focus on us. And we've been asked to do more. And so we're slowly gaining some traction, and we're going to add some more animals to our collection, which we're always careful about to make sure we're going about the best procedures to do so. And we're in the process of making new programs for our guests here at the Aquarium of the Pacific.
Sounds awesome. What are some things you might consider when you're looking at potentially a new animal ambassador like some of ours are? Probably not what you think, like I think people think of a very charismatic parrot as an animal master, which we certainly do have. But I think some of our ambassador animals would surprise people as well.
Yeah, that's a really good question because not every animal is going to be suited to be an animal baster and we have to make sure that we're picking the right animal for this position. I'm really glad you mentioned that. So that's why we're being so careful about our choices. And again, we are we are working with animals that are non releasable meaning they were wild, they were hatched wild birds. And then something happened usually because of people, and they were injured and those injuries were permanent enough that they could not be released. And so we are offering them a home. So I have to make sure that we are choosing animals that will be able to be conditioned successfully. So this is something that's enriching and positive for their lives.
Absolutely. That's amazing.
We want to make sure they have good welfare, you know, and I think it's a really important consideration. Mike, in his episode last season mentioned, his absolute favorite animal is actually an animal that just recently went through that whole process and is our most recent program animal acquisition, Lyra. Tell us a little bit about Lyra.
I love her so So we recently well, it feels recently acquired a red tailed hawk, and in falconry terms is referred to as a passage Hawk, meaning in its first year, she's in her first year of being hatched. And so she had she's pretty serious injuries. Yeah, so it was taken to a rehab. And not all of those injuries healed, as we would hope to be released into the wild. So I had heard that there was a red tailed hawk that had was capable of flight, but was considered non releasable. And when I heard about her age, I knew that would be the right parameters that would make this a successful animal ambassador. So we added a red tail hawk to our program. And she's been this consistent, beautiful flyer, and she currently flies over our guests in our Pacific Visions theater. And
it's it's cool. She also has a be dazzled. Yeah. The float, I guess it's
it's very fabulous. Like she's in a parade. I mean, I mean, basically, it
is a parade from from the barn to the theater shoe. I know, I see people looking, I stop in my tracks like,
I know. So we were talking about as she has a cover that covers her crate to keep her calm as we wheeled through the guests. And it's, we happen to order a velvet cover for this crate, which is really cute. And
it just so happened to Rochelle volunteers be dazzled it with her name, and it's gorgeous sparkly, might see it walking around the car, you might you might get lucky to see the star being transformed or
she goes to her dressing room.
So like I kind of not to not to be a downer, but I do kind of want to hear about the number of reasons why the animals are in this position to begin with, because they are Ambassador animals, they are going to inspire the public to care about the animals and to take brighter, better precautions just in the world. So what are some of the reasons that the animals have ended up in our in care and then adopted by
us? But good question. So for instance, we are just talking about Lyra and Lyra, more than likely based on her injuries was hit by a car. She sustained a lot of damage to her hip, her hip was broken, her feet were damaged. So that is one example. And that was just from people throwing stuff out of a car window and then rodents feeding on those things and the hot trying to do their job the full circle there. And that happens quite often. A lot of times with ALS. We have for instance, we have Lola and Lola is a sulphur crested cockatoo, and he is considered a rescue. Because he was an unwanted pet. At the age of two and a half his owners decided he was too much to handle. They're not domesticated animals. And they were looking to have someone else take him he wasn't there forever animal. And so he is considered a rescue. And he has been here for 17 years now. Oh, wow. Yeah,
I think that speaks to a really salient point that a lot of people adopt birds or get birds thinking that they are, you know, an easy pet to manage. And I feel like every single bird has such an individualistic personality and different traits. And to be honest, I can be quite loud and messy and stubborn. And you know, all of these things that indicate that they are super intelligent. And so is there any What is it like working with the cast of characters that are all the different parts that we have here?
Well, I think our curator has learned not to hold a meeting in front of Lola
and what happens when he holds a meeting?
Deafening scream continues on and on and on.
Really funny. It
is. It is. So yeah, that is one example
of disrespect.
He's just engaging with the audience.
You know it the thing about animals is they listen to us talk all day long. They feel like that's what my dogs you know, like, they listen to us talk all day long. And then they have something to say sometimes and we can't ask them to be quiet. That's true. They have stuff to say. Sometimes
sometimes. When you when we acquired Lyra, she certainly was a wild animal. And so sort of what went into conditioning a hawk to be comfortable flying over a theater with potentially hundreds of people in it from Being a wild hawk. That's a very stark difference.
Well, it's a lot of training and conditioning and using positive reinforcement. So the best way for a raptor which is a bird of prey, is to speak to their heart, and you speak to their heart through their stomach. They are very unlike parents, they've taken a motion of the equation. They're very kind of black and white, you feed me and it's positive, you're positive. And so by utilizing food, and gaining that trust with her, I took very small approximations. And then when she realized that none of us are gonna do anything negative to her, and that her opportunity to get a lot of reinforcement, which is all sorts of things that are yummy, just are
tasty for yourself.
I love a raw quail,
who doesn't love a rock quail, she was very quickly through trust and training, flying over base. She's was consistent and has been consistent except for just one time.
And that was just stage fright. Honestly, every target stage fright once in a while, you
know what she might not have done it that one time in front of all those people. But that isn't the most talked about performance, of course, right. And what happened, she, so she flies, so our audience have a mental picture, she flies from the back of the theater behind everybody down over the audience to the speaker on stage. And we're wearing a raptor glove, which is a leather glove that protects us from her talons, and she lands on the glove and eats her favorite things, which can be mice or quail. And so during training, and my co trainer, Susan and I had been working on this behavior for a while pretty much right out of quarantine. She had been consistent flying down no brainer, very easy, until we had 300 people in the audience. And I thought it was the group because she had never seen a group. But what it turned out to be was the lighting change last minute. And so we released her and she sat up on her box and I could see her looking real hard. Oh, they have this amazing vision. Right? But she's the dark, they don't fly. They won't do it. And so she sat up there for the longest time. And
you're like, Yeah, so my gosh, Scalia is
the most darling.
I'm know, sometimes it happens with our animals during we do live streams, like the octopus, you can't make an octopus do anything you know, they don't want to do you can't make a hawk do anything they don't want to do. So you have to get pretty good about kind of filling that time. And, you know, eventually sometimes they come around and then at some times you're like, Alright, we're gonna wrap it up with that. Participate today. And there's no we can't tell them to Yeah,
and it's a good learning experience for us. And like what we might change like, do we do a slightly more lighting in the theater now? Yeah,
they're really now I can tell the difference. I guess I was just so with the huge crowd and onstage it seemed different, but I didn't. This is not my lighting, I
I'm not gonna perform dim glow star brings her own lighting around with them. That's her. And that's you know, Lyra is a pop, she
shows her the ring light.
I would love to know the differences between raptors that you work with and our parents that you work with personality wise.
You know, there's a lot of differences. I hate like switching gears for both I prefer I just love all the birds. So you know, a birds of prey, to me are much easier to read, they're gonna show you right off the bat, if they're uncomfortable, they're gonna show you if it's some, there's something off, you can read it, you can tell and you can make your choices from there, behaviorally, to set them up for the best success. Parents are different because there's more as social animal has more emotion at play, and sometimes they mask their feelings. And so when they're stoic, and they sit there like that, you don't know if they're just taking everything in and enjoying it, it's enriching, or there's something going on and you're gonna find out later. They're definitely a bit more complicated. You definitely need to know your animal in all the different situations and always try to set it up where they are going to come out of that experience, knowing that it's going to be okay, and it's going to be positive for the next time.
Our birds of prey typically pretty solitary animals. And whereas parrots live in like huge congregations. Yes, they
are solitary until a mating season. Once they're going to mate. They'll stay in a mate a pair, but they don't hang out in big groups. In fact, they're territorial. Do
they stay with? I mean, I guess it would probably be species dependent, but do some species like stay with their mate all the time? Like, even out of breeding season frequently? That's really cute. I didn't know kill
stuff together,
right? Honestly. I learned a really cool term. It's you said in falconry terms and I just love the phrase because like, when do you ever get to say in South Korea, but I learned a really cool phrase the other week that the phrase Fed Up comes from falconry and it generally is like your animal is now full and is like, I'm not really Yeah, I don't really want to like do this stuff anymore. Yeah, he's done with you. It's just like it's just come to me, like so like frustrated with something, but really just means that your bird was cool at one point.
I'm so used to that I haven't even considered that like what? Up with you.
I'm just I've eaten a lot today and I can't do much else like, that's actually how most days
falconry has seasons. So you will fly your hawk for season one with your hawk. It's a working relationship. It's a partnership. It's really, it's really very different than what we do here. But it's just really amazing and peaceful and really bonding with that animal. You spend all your time with your laughter I mean, they're riding with you sometimes in the front seat on a perch. That's really you know, sometimes they're by your bedside. And then you go hunting with your Raptor. So when you say they're fed up, and it started by saying you're, they're fed up for the season, so you give them a huge whatever, they caught a duck, whatever they got. That's their feast. And, yeah,
that's really funny. So yeah, I learned that the term fed up came from in falconry terms, which it's just such a cool thing to like, I don't know, I just always wanted to say in falconry terms,
love to learn more about kind of the safety precautions you have to take with an animal like that. You mentioned the glove. Are you keeping a certain distance? What's kind of, I'm sure it's just a constant kind of checking in with the animal and you're watching. Yeah, with an animal like Lyra who has the capability of, you know, potentially choosing tensed.
She isn't tense. I love her so much. With this training, there's a very close bond and trust. So they need to be pretty close to you. And I have to be able to trust that she's not going to use her natural weapons against me for any reason. So there is a there is a closeness when you're working with a raptor and it's it is a relationship. It is a trust. And you need you need that for your success for that animal.
Back and forth. Yeah, so the glove kind of acts more of protection for your arm. I'm assuming it's not necessarily a precaution. If something were to happen, but more of like she she's got
she's got those murder toe. Yeah. And she's not landing on you with any sort of aggression. She's landed because you've asked her to Yeah, and it's just that's just how that's
just how it is. Yeah, yeah. Funny. That's so cool. How long How? How often do those clubs have to be replaced? Are they did they get worn pretty quickly?
They do get worn, but mostly it's not from the Raptors. Mostly, it's from just being Nick toss. Yeah, it's
from the humans.
Raptors do barely anything.
A little scratch? Well, also, there's
like little pieces of mice on it and stuff. You know. I remember very early on when you had started working with Lyra, you were like, do you want to help me with an approximation and that was just sort of like one little baby step to getting her to fly from one person to the next. And I had never seen a bird of prey up close. Like I grew up in Hawaii. There's nothing you know, like I never even thought about it and was like cool little Hawk, you know? Sure. Find this bird. The bird is like the biggest thing I've ever seen in my life. And I'm not afraid of animals. But I had a little fear in my heart that day because she just comes flying in so hot. And she landed on my arm. But I think my arm was positioned low or I dropped it and she started walking up my shoulder. And there's this picture that Heather took, which is so funny, because I look like I'm smiling. But my eyes are so wide and fearful because she's looking right in my eyeballs with her legs. And I was like, it knows nothing about her. That meant ill you know, like she was no, she's learning but yeah, she has like the most intense like she'll stare right in your eyes and I'll
have her back. What happens with a lot of our animals like aged people to a ceiling encounter and from outside of the exhibit. Oh, they're so cute. Once you get up to those guys Parker's 600 800 pounds sometimes you forget like, you're like, oh, yeah, that's a that's big. That's Danny right next week. He's got those teeth. Okay. And then you have to like, Oh, he's so cute.
He's actually a big word.
Animals and amazing animal I didn't you know, you don't realize like you said, you don't realize how big he is. Until I had my 12 year old do and encountered right next to encounters. Oh, he's like,
oh, yeah, he's I guess he is kind of forgot.
And he's just like the gentlest guy. Like we're so lucky with the animals that we have. And a lot of it is good training. And certainly that goes into them being comfortable and an animal is not going to aggress on you if they're comfortable in their situation. And so it's amazing to see these animals come from situations where they're rescued wild animals and over time become so conditioned and understanding of the interaction that we're having with them, that they're really calm. Something that may or may not be relevant to the remainder of this podcast is we actually are working on conditioning one of our animals best There's right now isn't that right? That
is true. There's a there's a low low right in front of me a little guy is he is very anti podcast. Yeah. What
are you seeing? How are we working through this? You just fed him
so it did especially the first time he's been open to taking some food through his crate door. So he's never been in this room before. There's microphones in the green room. It's so different 100 be
visually for him.
You know, he's been all over this record. He's been here for so he's been here longer than I have. And he's been everywhere. So I kept
this room apparently.
It's a lot and it's it's the most quiet I've ever seen. He's
like, it's quiet in here. I have to be quiet. Now this room is really funny because yeah, there's no ambient noise when we're in kind of like, okay,
it must be a lot right? Just the lack of sound. Yeah, like, something's
out. So he's just watching us so we'll see if Yeah, like,
right around his mouse, all of his feathers are puffed up. What does that mean? Like you are his body language expert. Like I know that's what you're doing when you're doing these things. What is he telling us right now
he's sitting tight. Like holding with his feathers are pulled back like that he's there's an action that's about to take, that's about to happen when he's sitting there. And he's got his chin feathers all over there. He's he does not plan to move from there right now.
We get it.
It's cool that you can look at an animal and sort of be like this is you know, vaguely how they're feeling and what you know, we're looking for. And so I don't know, it's been fun to just kind of watch you choose the moments of like, Hey, I'm going to offer you a snack. Do you feel good about this? Do you want to take it and he's doing his best to and as that's
my favorite thing is sitting in our admin offices and hearing Lola come by. It makes my entire day and then sometimes they'll talk to me and it's it's the best day ever.
It's so funny, because I didn't expect this behavior from him at all he winning, we take him to the Honda Pacific Visions theater back in minutes, which is a big journey. He's just flirting with everybody the entire time. And we have just as much of a production to and from the program.
And we're just in a very chill quiet room and he says something. Sentence, I'm pretty sure I've like
been walking and heard a wolf whistle and been so often I'm like, well, it's just like, hey, yeah, you
whistled at him as we were walking here. So I get
so cool. We'll see if he will, if he doesn't make an appearance today. We'll do a post interview with him. Yeah, he's so cool. It's,
it's cool to see each animal have their own personality. And certainly some of it is species dependent. But I mean, even our lorikeets, right, like each of them has a very distinctive, you wouldn't imagine like 100 birds in the aviary, and they're all different right now.
It's a very strong hierarchy of personalities.
Can you tell the difference between them based on the way they look personalities,
like somebody's not like some people can, but I'm doing my best. There's a lot of birds in there. We actually have this second largest aviary. I think it's the first of the states but of all interactive aviaries. lorikeet aviaries. So there's a lot of birds in there and they all have different numbers on a number on that band, but I can only tell so a small percentage based on their behavior
do you have a favorite? Yes. Who is writing
core rank?
high rank or stage
five clinger?
Yeah, I love that. I love that
I like his personality. i There's so many that I love but he's a very he's he's the boy look for that skewed.
Would you mind quickly listing all of our Ambassador Burns and then maybe we can get into a little bit about the other Ambassador animals? Yeah,
so the ambassador birds that I'm working with now as Lola, the sulphur crested cockatoo, who is quietly sitting here, and we have Lyra or red tailed hawk. We also have Sula or red footed boobie. She's
cool. Yeah, it's
really quiet. Never got to work with a movie until I came here. It's just amazing Sula
is I think the only red footed movie that I know of that's under human care. And she is one of the coolest words I've ever met. Like, definitely, she's got her own personality. I remember when she first came to us, she had a stick that she was obsessed with. Yeah,
we think she was younger at the time. You know, we just had to kind of guess at their ages. And her behavior kind of indicated to us that this was a younger bird who did a lot of plane. And so she would play with a favorite stick on a string. And so so we could bring one of those things as a way to engage with her and reinforce her in different locations. And it was it was just really fun to watch.
It's been cool to see her kind of grow up here too. Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so we have Lola Lyra.
That's our job. And then we house. We have a small group of reptiles. So we have several snakes to kingsnakes into boas, and we now have three prehensile tailed skinks. Now we have
a baby. It's a really cute baby.
And Benny, oh, my goodness. throated Macaw
many is a beautiful bird and he is so cool. I thought that their salary is so in love when he comes by my desk doesn't doesn't really communicate especially the way Lola does. Right?
There's been a talk because I definitely thought I heard Benny saying hi the other day but says hi. Okay, as soon as I like looked, he was like, I will not say a word. And
then that was the cutest thing is Lola taught Benny how to do the monster behavior. So if you put your hand up like a claw, and you say monster, he puts his foot up because our monster
was doing it again. Monster
That was wonderful, Benny, thank you.
Lola taught in that
oh my god, good job. Lola. Was like, Listen,
he's like, Please, I'm the best trainer.
I mean, it's cool to know that birds can learn by mimicking other birds, even other species. It's fascinating. And I mean, they're they're roommates. I mean, not in the same enclosure. But like, certainly they can see each other right. So what's
funny is Lola Lola knows all of his his cues, his essays. And so if he sometimes he'll say to himself target, or
step up, he's like, I'm doing it to learn more a little about that communication with the birds. How is an animal able to talk? How is it able to mimic what we sound like? Yeah. And how much
understanding of what they're saying do you think
they have what's crazy is it's not clear to people exactly how they're able to do that. They don't have vocal cords. And what's also fascinating, it was speculated by some a while ago that, why would they need to be able to have Yeah, that mimicking, which not all of them do, some of them are great mimickers like some people can sing really well. And some people like me cannot. And so it was speculated that maybe the best mimickers can mimic a predator to avoid another predator coming in or, but there's been no documentation and lots of studies. And no one's ever seen or heard a parrot doing that utilizing their ability to mimic other animals. But there is a study of these birds having their own family sounds of recognition with each other in large flocks. So even though they'll have family groups, they can be found in huge, huge groups of several 100. Birds. So
cool. Yeah, I always wonder why that was something they they had and goes back to their evolution, right?
I mean, picked up and do they name each other? Like, that would be lower. That's your name? Oh, that I need to look that up. No, weird. No, it'd be interesting to know whether or not they like have individual names, like I know some species. I think dolphins, they have like the whistle signatures that are like that's for you. And so I wonder if parents have the same? Well, let us know. Oh, actually, oh my gosh, I'm so nervous. He's looking at me. He's like, my name is actually just constant screaming the whole time. He's been saying it every time. Brett talks, that's what he's
it's a beautiful name. What's his name? And he wants to raise.
He's like, I should go full time. Well, buddy, I didn't know what now we'll call you by that only can you imagine this is our ambassador, self requested card? On screen.
I think you'd have a really cool abt was like, please.
I'm sorry, Scott in advance for you.
Well, can we talk a little bit about the little more about the positive reinforcement, so you're giving him some pellets or some snacks right now? Yes.
So we trained using positive reinforcement. And just a quick, easy way to explain it is we just reward behavior we like we ignore behavior we don't like so any of our animal ambassadors, including the reptiles, we do. And some of you that come to the aquarium on a regular basis are familiar with this, the two finger touch. So if I go to one of our snakes, and I, I touch them gently on the back, and there's a reaction. That's their only way to tell me that they don't want to do it, which I don't normally get that from our snakes, but they have that option if they wanted to. And it's the same thing with Lola and Lyra, to and Benny. So if we, we have a station in their enclosure, and we ask them to go to that station, which is a specific location in their enclosure. And that's a really highly reinforced bubble, station or location. If they go to that station right off the bat. That's his way of telling me to come out and see what you have for me. And if they don't, that's his only way to say, I'm not feeling it today. So if he doesn't, we respect that, and we talk about it. And if it happens more than once, then there's something it's an indication that something's not positive for him, because the whole goal is that he wants to come out and be enriched and do things and see the things now new stimuli. One
of my favorite things about training is that, you know, people always are like, Oh, well, you make them do something and I'm like, No, the whole thing is a conversation, you know, like the animal is expressing to me, either, hey, that's something that maybe makes me nervous and you're expressing, I'll work through it with you. And I think that that can be lost when you're just looking at it externally, but the minute that you're in it, and it's the same as if you're training your dog, you know what their boundaries are, and like, I'm not going to do that and when they're uncomfortable, and every single species has some ability to communicate, but also training is a way for us to give them the tools to tell us when they do or don't want to. And I think you probably more than most individuals at the aquarium because you work with so many Ambassador animals that come out and meet people and have to do things that might be overwhelming or scary for an animal have to work on these relationships and communication styles and understand them so much better. Like, I could tell you a frog is probably uncomfortable, but like, when is the frog comfortable, you know, like, they just constantly have this a huge eyes. But like, for all the different species of birds, you have to be able to read a situation and like, get an animal to participate or, except that they won't and be like, hey, that's okay. That's something we can work on another time. And I think that's a really cool aspect of our jobs, and especially your job that I don't think we look at enough of like you're talking to these animals in your own way all day every day. And it's pretty cool to see.
That's one of the reasons why I stuck with working with birds and training with birds, because the biggest reward is free flying birds. And for instance, take raptors are birds of prey, they can reinforce themselves, Lyra is perfectly capable of hunting on her own. But the fact that through positive reinforcement and through our relationships, she will choose to come to me and do that instead. And we can do these performances. You know, in other places that I've worked, it's completely outdoors and all these animals are making their choices. It's
it's cool. It's cool, super relationship based do and like, it's cool to know that they know who you are like Parker no offense again. But I don't think Parker has any idea who I am. You know, he sees a person who shows up and feeds him. Yeah, and he's like a bucket of fish. I'm here for it. Let's do it. But these birds like you, and another person who's brand new could ask the exact same thing of a bird and they will give totally different responses because like, oh, no, you
that's I like the way you asked me that. I
would never do that for
you know how they're told you to do it.
Like a pretty big learning curve to you know, working with some of the maybe less so for some species, like a snake that maybe is like, pretty chill hanging out, however, but like for the birds, especially Is there a pretty big learning curve to starting to work with them?
It is and it's different for every person, it's a different journey, for sure. And for instance, you know, Gary, my co trainer has to work extra hard at being currently the only guy on the team. So when you have a bunch of girls working the same animals, and we deliver our cues and our
verbal in like a high pitch, which I always do.
He's always done really good. And so he has to really keep up on relationships, as we all do, of course, but him even more so to make sure that he's working and being able to hear these animals equally as we can
to get so cool. Something you would never consider before. That's amazing, man.
I think I mean, it just goes to show like how individualistic they all are, given how intelligent they are and how individual they are. Are there differences in like the types of enrichment that you offer them? Or what types of enrichment might you give a parent versus a hawk? And like, how do you keep them entertained?
Parents, you can overwhelm them for sure. But there they are fun to give enrichment to, you're going to give them browse and bright shiny toys and they love to shred things. And that's what floats their boat. Or you have to be careful some things can be overwhelming to them and they can be a little fearful. So you get to actually sometimes you have to take approximations and have that toy outside their enclosure and work your way closer and closer. Like one day you will love this. And we're not going to rush it. It's
just gonna be 10 feet away and then tomorrow nine feet closer.
We have in the past given a Christmas tree to our Raptor. Now Lyra is too big for a Christmas tree. She'll
take down a Christmas tree no problem.
That's funny. What I have done is taken a shoe box. I got new work shoes and I poked holes in it and I put a quail. Oh, and I had to show it to her. And then I threw it on the floor and I watched her anytime. Any bird that piques has to turn his head sideways is the cutest thing to me still to this day. So she flew down and with that stern raptor look because you know they have that natural sunvisor makes them look really like they have no sense of humor. She like got really low and she peed really. It was the cute I wish I had filmed it.
Oh my gosh, I have to film that this year. We have to put a camera inside the box to see her I
yeah, I go crow. I should have mine. Honestly you Should I just love the idea of just like the
need to be to GIF or GIF? I want to see that. Yeah, use that all the time just
getting really close.
I love it. Cool. That's amazing. So that will be probably considered like a hunting enrichment for her is there any other hunting enrichment that you give to a raptor?
Hunting enrichment, we've done enriching actions in sessions where I can take her somewhere else in the room, and I can just toss something up. Yeah, invert and catch it and land and that's just stimulating and funny ever. From what I understand from those who worked at the Ohio Raptor Center, she was a very assertive hunter in her flight and mediary when they're trying to prep her for release, and so I've been using that quality and her to be able to stimulate and give her enrichment outside of her enclosure. So we can do flights back and forth. I've even and this might be for me, too. I like watching birds of prey from the ground because it's really
kind of cute. Like
he just like rolls do roll or food across and she just just trucks
can we do a slow mo of like, running like face on little lanes? Because
it looks like they're wearing trousers and so you just get to see their feathers on their legs and I love it. Yeah, why
did they have such feathers all the way down is like some birds their feathers and it's sort of like that were their trunk you know their body in like vultures. Yeah, why do Raptors have feathers all the way down. They look like pants. Vultures have
tons of legal trousers, Oh, I see your trousers. It's just their feathers all the way down for their protection. It also helps protect them from their price. So squirrel one brown and bite kind of thing. And it's also worth. Vultures, on the other hand, have naked legs and a naked head because they eat dead things and they'll actually stand in the carcass and keep them clean hips keep their feathers clean by not having feathers in those location paths and
also things are fighting back. I guess at that point. No protection needed,
which is a good point. A lot of times Raptors have been Raptors will eat carrion just like a vulture can which is one of those things why you wouldn't want them around roads. Yeah.
Don't throw your food out your windows. Don't throw anything out your window. Yeah, absolutely. But it's a there is that like argument like Oh, I'm throwing something biodegradable at night to you know, nature, but that is just creating a food source for other animals for they shouldn't be anyway.
Absolutely talk about that in our bird shorts and Pacific Visions. Throw in an apple quantum car window might seem like a harmless act. It's biodegradable, but what feeds rodents, which attracts Raptor, you know?
And they're just circle. Yeah. That sort of
leads to the first question we have from social media. Like, why do we have birds at an aquarium? I think you touched on it. The messaging is there, you know, everything's interconnected. But what's your rationale for I don't want to work here unless
there's birds here. And there's so much connection with birds, as most people do not realize I you know, in my career working with birds, a lot of people don't have that connection that they do with mammals. And I love being able to change that, and showing them how important and cool birds really are, but their connection is amazing. And each species and each animal group or each bird group has these important connections to our oceans and to our ecosystems. Like you know, we talk about the red footed boobie and how what they're doing is their waste products are given nutrients that are like gardeners to coral reef ecosystems. And how we came about finding that out, you know, Lola here his, the sulphur crested cockatoo is not an endangered species, there are cockatoos that are critically endangered. However, parents, like the cockatoo are highlighted as frequent long distance seed dispersers. And that's really important to the survival of our plant species. These guys, there's been studies of how long these birds will fly with branches. And in their beaks.
Yes, like, don't
make fun of me. I'm sorry. You never know what stick is important.
I ever talking now.
I have walked up to Lola's enclosure before and just seen him with a stick in his hand and it is the most threatening thing you've ever seen in your life on one foot on the perch and then just a stick being held out at you and you're like, oh, I have fun. He did he he got off and I'm gonna put up we're getting comfy. He's like, where's this? Where's the stick? What's David to me?
Did you saw was so cool.
It's been pretty cool to see. I think something someone told me once. Maybe you can fact check me on this. Someone told me that. Birds like parrots can't taste like capsaicin, or it doesn't give them the same reaction like that spicy food does to us. And so for that reason, pepper has developed capsaicin very specifically so that birds can eat them. disperse the seeds and poop them out, but wouldn't be averse to it. And I was like what? But mammals wouldn't because they digest it. And I was like, That's great. Yeah, we could give him a jalapeno right now or anything. Yeah, someone told me they can't like experience spice in that way.
That makes sense. They don't. In writing, it says they don't have a sense of smell. However, a lot of us that have been working with these birds. Notice that if you, you can hold up a piece of food and they'll be willing to take it visually like, oh, I want to try that. And they'll get this, it'll get so close to their mouth. And the last second, they'll pull back and shake their heads. So there's something going on some sense, right? There's something there. So I don't think across the board. It's blanket, no sense of smell. There's something going on. Yeah. But perceiving that would help me pepper.
I know that like parents also use their tongue like a finger, right? Yes, absolutely.
So funny. Their beak is like a hand to them. There's this expert climber. So they feel with their tongue. And so it's intimidating to new trainers. If a parent especially opens their beat, yeah. Right at their hand. I'm like, Oh, he's
just checking.
Way to touch here. Yeah,
he's gonna give you a little lick. See what you're all about? Getting
an idea of what the situation? But don't worry, he's not smelling you. Yeah,
he probably can't. But we don't know. We don't know.
He's doing something after
sea lion session. He's not offended by smell like fish.
likes fish. This is how I found out Lola really likes.
He likes sushi. That's so cool. I have a question aside. Before we get fully into that, do you have any recommendations for people who aren't bird people who kind of visit the aquarium lorikeet for us can be a little overwhelming to someone who isn't introverts? Do you have any suggestions for someone who maybe has like a slight fear or worry?
Where do you start? Yeah,
I wouldn't start Lauren. Our forest is amazing. And like I said, it's very large. But if you are bird phobic, or you're just starting, that might not be your stepping stone. I would watch from the outside first. And then or come see some of our bird programs where you're at a distance where you feel comfortable, are lorikeets I love them. They're amazing. They have very fast metabolisms. So there's one minute where they're completely full, and you can't predict when that is, and they will not land on you. And then 20 minutes later. Yeah, it's a little unpredictable in there, something that I've learned, and try my best to stay on top of. Yeah, so I would start small just by observing from a distance I would watch from the outside, because I'll actually come and hang in and talk to you through the walls of the aviary. And so I will a lot of times we'll watch parents, with small kids who weren't ready to go in yet. Watch me outside. Yeah, that's a great way to do it. That's yeah, see what happens.
And also, if it's not for you, that's totally fine, too. There's, there's other ways like he's like You can enjoy our birds here at the Aquarium. Visiting the shows are not going to land on your head during the shows. They're not gonna poop on you. Maybe they might make poop on you. Hopefully might happen. Hopefully, they don't land on you either. It's also good luck if you get pooped on. So let me Yes, Lucky.
Speaking sort of along those lines, I know that some people, you know, a fear of birds is pretty normal for some people. Are there any animals that you've been like? It's been an unexpected negative reaction when you've brought them out for a program or unexpected fan favorites to an animal that you're like, I didn't expect people to love this animal so much. What's been your extremes on both ends? For that experience? We
occasionally get the extreme where it's someone who has a phobia. And you have to realize what do I work with snakes tend to be the two people I've never heard someone say I'm phobic about otters get it away from me.
I am going
to add is like tarantulas and like, scariest person. I'll take your tarantula snakes and birds. These are what I work with.
I guess it's good that these are our animal ambassadors, because that is my job is to educate and to change minds and to get people to appreciate all the aspects of these animals. The opposite end of that is it's just so fun when someone just lights up, lights up. And then I had somebody wanted to see me after a presentation several weeks ago, and I got a call on the radio and I was like, oh, like someone wants to talk to you. Who did? Who did the last bird show and that person wants to talk to you. We have some guests here. And I'm like, do I know these people? And they're like, no, they're they just wanted to talk to you. And I'm like, oh. Scary. So I came all the way up to the front. And it was it was a couple that were so excited about what they saw. And they just wanted to talk my ear off about a hawk they saw in their backyard, and they wanted me to say what it was like I wish I couldn't see like,
it looked like a bird. It was a pretty big,
round wings and a wider chest. And I'm like, there's so many. I didn't want to squash that. So we chatted for quite a while. That's just their excitement was so reinforcing for me. Yeah,
I love that about you guys, you're our staff here at the Aquarium where if you have the time, but you know, after our show, or between, you know, between shows, and you're so passionate about your job, we're so passionate about the animals that you work with, of course, you want to share them with the world. And I just, I really appreciate that, that you, I really appreciate that about your department.
I appreciate that about our guests, you know, odd guests who comes up to you, and it's like, Tell me everything you know about those guests? Isn't the one off get loved there.
It's so great.
It's like a question that I've never asked or thought of myself. Like, what are otter tongues like? And I was like, I don't know, I never close at them. And you're just like opening their mouths and you're like, let me and then you come back out. And like it looks like this. Take a picture.
I absolutely love. So definitely, if you're visiting the aquarium, don't be afraid to talk to our staff members, everybody you know who works with animals or even from our education department. Even our guest services staff is really knowledgeable about the animals that are here. And they're interesting behaviors, and
we want to talk and we want
to talk about it. We do well, that's our job bridging. That's why we started this podcast, bridging that gap from our the mission of our facility and what we do for conservation. And we're bridging that gap too, for our guests to understand exactly what we're doing. Because that's more that is more poignant than any sign or any pamphlet. Yeah,
social media listener wants to know how they might be able to visit some of our ambassador animals or where they might see them. Currently,
the only scheduled presentations that we're doing is in our Honda Pacific Visions at 1030. And two o'clock, we do our program called Bird shorts, which is a live animal presentation, it's always going to be a bird. That's what they're called and virture. Again, every day, seven days a week at 1030. And then at two o'clock, those are the ones that are scheduled and then we do unscheduled surprise visits with our ambassador reptiles. So anywhere outside, you typically outside we can be anywhere we are going to take out a steak or a skink and be out there in the sunshine and talk to our guests. Someone's run Mike, sometimes we're just walking around and engaging with people on the fly. Yeah,
so just stay aware of your surroundings.
Maybe a sneak by or maybe it's
also really cool in a positive way in a positive way. Exactly. Cool. Um, Who's the oldest Ambassador bird that we have? Our
oldest Ambassador Byrd is Lola. He just Well, we do have lorikeets that are older.
He blinks so hard. He usually is 19 years old. So he is our oldest ambassador. Wow. Teenager, you're
almost 29 No rates and double decades. On his birthday,
I have that. It's October,
October 5. Oh, my gosh, a Libra.
He He's a Libra. No wonder no, sorry.
October 7 2000. Yeah, it
turns out well as the same birthday as a curator. And maybe that's the connection of why he's been screaming is very excited. Oh, he's communicating in his own ways. Good job. Oh, 19. Amazing.
These guys can easily live until their late 60s. Yeah, I
was gonna say too, with with them being able to be purchased as pets. You know, that's a huge commitment. You're adopting something that for a life potentially outlive you depending on your age,
she had a cockatoo we had to at home, and my parents growing up, and they had my mom had, she had picked out this wallpaper that she absolutely loved. And then within one day, the two had peeled up all the walls. And it could do this spear routes. Oh,
I love that you had cockatoos growing up and you still volunteer to work with? Because I feel like that could easily go. Yeah, you know, I accept you for who you are.
Want to know what we had growing thing?
That's amazing. Cool. What are the role of parrots in their ecosystems we kind of talked about they are able to carry those branches and see their biggest
thing is blasey dispersal. Yeah, they're amazing. So they are they transport seeds, because plants can't migrate. They need help to spread their seeds. And it's not just birds, animals in general will spread seeds, sodas, wind and water. But these guys like I said they're highlighted as big, frequent seed dispersers long distance. And that's their biggest role that sulfur crested cockatoo numbers have increased dramatically and I eat from what I understand they're considered a pest and they can be really distracted to some people's farms in Australia.
Yeah, I think we kind of get a couple of those comments every time because we are lucky enough to reach across Australia with our social media posts. What's up you We're like, I have 10 of those in my backyard right now. Yeah, it's like 10 Lola's lucky here and I know that like,
I don't know, it's crazy to see those videos. Like someone walks outside and there's just cockatoos all over the yard. You're like I have any of our ambassador animals been born at the aquarium.
While Yeah, very recently, a new birth actually. And it I can't say birth because prehensile tailed skanks actually give live birth. Which is unusual for reptiles. Yeah. And so we have baby Mojo. Who
is it? Why is his name Mojo?
Why I'm glad you asked because his dad is named banjo and his mother is named monkey. So we put those together. Jackie and banjo and Mojo was one of the few times one person suggested the name and everybody agree. Yeah, I was
like, yes. Mojo is a great name.
It's got a lot of mojo. And he
was huge being born when they're
when they're born. They're about approximately a third the size of the mother 1/3 of the size and I read. Yeah, can you imagine that would be like a human person giving birth to a five year old and I stopped reading stopped. For me to hear Yeah. We
did a whole I mean, it was basic done learning. We did like a baby shower. We did the guests the date that Mojo was born and how big it will help it will be and how much away
I love that story. Because that those are animals. We those are two animals we've had for a long time. Yes. Have never bred and right all of a sudden.
Yep, the moon after eight years, you know, you never know. Especially monkey monkey is one of the oldest. She's one of two the oldest living ever recorded.
Really? Yeah. She just had a baby. Yeah. So
I assume it was not physically possible for her. So she is doing very well using that's so cool.
We have a very specific question for you from someone you might know. And it is tell us a fun fact about red tailed Hawks. Sorry, coworker of our shadowed Amanda. Thanks for
red tail Hawks. Like all birds of prey, their vision is 10 times better than our own. And their speed is incredible. So the fastest animal in the world everyone thinks is the cheetah. But actually, there are many birds, even some fish that go faster than the speed of the cheetah. And the fastest animal in the world is a raptor. Now Eagles can go 70 to 80 miles an hour long. Yeah, Hawk like Lyra 120 miles per hour. And this is referred to as a stoop. So this is not flying and gliding out in the air like you see them doing this is when they tuck up their wings and die like a bullet going after their prey. A lot of times it's the impact alone that kills their prey. Not necessarily the sharp talons. It's just that impact coming in. But the fastest of the Raptors is the Falcons. And the fastest of the Falcons is the North American peregrine falcon at 242 miles per hour crazy.
Are they Arthur? Like? I was gonna ask it in the stupidest way. Are they like built different? Like, what are they? They think about birds like songbirds, little birds, they weigh nothing. They have hollow bones. They like you could look at them and their bones seem like they're gonna break at any second. And I can't imagine diving at 240 and landing on something and yeah, the impact kills the thing. But how does the impact not kill the bird? How were they? Do they like, put their wings out at the last second and they like SOP themselves, like how and also how they're just built? Or their legs. Like
they're all explained exactly how they're built different for the coolest fact. There's lots of difference. A lot of different facts talk about but my all time favorite. And this is a falcon thing. They have a tiny twist of bone and skin in their nostrils. So if you look, it's like a little island in the middle of each nostril. And it's just bone and skin. And so as they're diving, you can imagine if you've ever been in a car on the freeway, and as a kid ever stick your hand out the window, watch that force of air Yeah, push your hand backwards. That's just going the speed limit hopefully for an animal that can physically reach the type of speeds that a Falcon can that force of wind hitting their face if they were trying to take a breath that could explode their lungs. And what that twist of bone and skin does it breaks up the wind and protects their lungs so when they're doing that die from several 100 feet in the air they can breathe normally safely and that's the coolest
so definitely are so cool. And amazing if I had
that I would probably get surgery for like a deviated septum you know like and then for them to like I need this so that I don't explode while I'm if you
had that then you can maybe dive from about 280 miles an hour. Oh
do that. I just don't think I could stop. I'm just gonna install a twist of bone in my nose. Let me do that
it's actually the twist for my dive you wouldn't get it. You're not a falcon. I'm fed up. Okay, we're done. Good job circle.
Before we and is there any favorite stories you have of working with the birds that you'd like to share? I feel like every day is something new. So I'm sure it's hard to keep track of them. But do any stories stick out
so Sula, which we haven't talked about Sula, quite enough for the amazing brother she is we could do a whole episode on right or red footed Ruby, she's relatively new to doing these big theater shows Burbridge shorts. And she is she flies and we make it different each time, kind of mix it up. But she does one A to B, which is point A flight to point B and I'm talking the show. And when I'm talking, these are animals that can be unpredictable and things can happen. And my job is to keep talking as if it was part of the presentation no matter what. And so lately, she has been feeling more comfortable. And she has been deciding to do flights that don't land on my arm with a little bit of side eye. And so you know, I'm sitting here, like an idiot with my arms. And I've learned not to say and she's gonna fly right over here to me. And she flies and she's gonna land I can see her and then I can just see her face her eyes disconnect from me look past me. And then she just keeps going. And she makes us beautiful circle across we have a beautiful beachy sunset backdrop. And you see her fly across this gorgeous setting.
As if it was planned. And
that's exactly what I do. Like, she is going to take this time to stretch her way and give you a gorgeous look at how beautiful these rates are. Why Ray? Just even inside them die. Where's he gonna go? Don't hurt yourself with it. Make sure everything's safe. Like, where's my co trainer? What's going on? Why would she do this? We'll talk about it later. And then she lands on the back of someone's seat. She does. Fortunately, Here's good. Nothing came out of her. Yeah, there was no good luck at that point.
Okay, so go to bird shorts if you if you got a good, good attitude about maybe getting close to an animal because it can happen.
Just like I'm a pelagic bird. I'm going to demonstrate me flying over the ocean that will make friends with this guy. What's your name? Squid for me. By chance everyone else
yeah, blue shirt on today. It's funny hanging out around here. Sometimes you rent your money. Cool. Thank you so much out there. This is a really fun episode, I learned so much about our ambassador birds. And like I said, we could really do an episode on each each one. So maybe that'll come in the future. It just the whole season. Birds
it's just been a really good time. I think the funniest thing is that we have this. We're Garius amazing program animal right here with us. And he's just been so nervous about the new setting that like it's actually a great opportunity. Our real last question that we can edit in at the end is we wanted to know what Lola's best animal impression at
sea lion. You're very pretty bird. What kind of bird it's time to use my teapot. What's that? Good. Shark? Good. That's a favorite game to play as peekaboo peekaboo. Let's do that one again, because that's pretty fun to begin. If I scratch my head and say let's think he scratches his head and says where's your brain? Let's do it. Let's think what's your monster? Good. Bye Lulu.
Aquarium of the Podcific is brought to you by Aquarium of the Pacific a 501 C three nonprofit organization in 2023. The aquarium celebrates 25 years of connecting millions of people worldwide to the beauty and wonder of our ocean planet. Head to aquarium of pacific.org to learn more about our 25th anniversary celebration. Keep up with the aquarium on social media at aquarium Pacific on tick tock Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. This
podcast is produced by Erin Lundy, Madeline Walden and Scott Shaw. Our music is by Andrew writes MA and our podcast art is by Brandy Kenny, special thanks to Cecile Fisher and Anita vias and our audio visual and education departments and to all of our amazing podcast guests for taking time out of their day to talk about the important work that they do. But cific wouldn't be possible without the support of the Aquarium's. donors members guests and supporters thanks for listening
