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640. Policy, Funding, and Talent: 8 Nonprofit Trends Leaders Can’t Ignore (Stacy Palmer) | Otter.ai

640. Policy, Funding, and Talent: 8 Nonprofit Trends Leaders Can’t Ignore (Stacy Palmer)

Sabrina Li45min

Jonathan McCoy

00:00

Becky, what's happening?

Becky Endicott

00:01

I am very excited, because I have to tell you little 20 year old Becky, who was fresh into her nonprofit job at Oklahoma State University's foundation 100 years ago, was so grateful for the Chronicle of Philanthropy, for the way it onboarded me into this space, and today it's all coming full circle as we go full circle, you. Stacy Palmer, So today you're going to hear four really important points. One, how to retain and support staff in a sector with such high burnout and turnover. Two, you're going to learn how to lead senior level teams effectively while align aligning around your mission and strategy. Third, you're going to understand the broader leadership trends of what's working across the sector right now and translate them into your own organization. And lastly, you're going to learn how to navigate those external changes, like policy shifts, funding uncertainty, cultural pressures, all the things we're all dealing with. And you're gonna figure out how to do it with resilience and adaptability. Stacy is bringing the goods today. So, Jon, you got an intro

Jonathan McCoy

01:07

or Steve, yes. I mean, I'm so excited to have Stacey in the house with her. If you're not familiar with Stacy Palmer, she's the chief executive at the Chronicle of Philanthropy. So many conversations in our sector have started there and continue to ripple. And she has been in this role, she's been guiding the organization, really, from a bi weekly newspaper into a leading multimedia nonprofit. Catch that since 2023 they're fully independent, and that is a story in and of itself. But as founding editor, since 1996 she led its transformation into a respected hub of news, advice, opinion and programming tailored specifically for philanthropy professionals. So Stacy has also established an impactful partnerships with the Associated Press and the conversation to expand public understanding of the nonprofit world, while also training journalists of how to cover our topics more deeply. So her leadership is rooted in innovation media strategy and strengthening the ecosystem around nonprofits, looking toward the more systemic changes that we can do in society. So this makes her an insight so invaluable to everyone in the mission driven sector today. So it's a huge honor to have you with us. Stacey, welcome to the podcast. Oh, delighted to join you. Yeah. I mean, we want to get to know you, though, because this institution that you run is larger than life in so many levels, but we want to hear about you Stacy, like tell us about little Stacy growing up, and what were some of the formative experiences in life that led you to, you know, leading this effort,

Stacy Palmer

02:30

not surprisingly, I was a student journalist, and I wanted to be a reporter from the day I first probably encountered what it was to be a journalist, but I wasn't really sure I was going to have a chance to do that, because the journalism industry, when I left college, that was a long time ago, was not doing all that well. But I was fortunate enough to get a job at the Chronicle of Higher Education, which is the organization that founded the Chronicle of Philanthropy, and I got to do what I really loved, which is I wanted to be in Washington. I wanted to cover federal policy, but through a specialized lens, what how exciting to like talk about what's happening at colleges and universities would be the only one doing that. But I got to have a seat at the Capitol Hill, at the White House, doing all of those kinds of things when I was really young. And I love that, and that was just tremendous fun. And this is a really nerdy story about how the Chronicle of Philanthropy came

Becky Endicott

03:32

to be something I loved. Hit it, yeah.

Stacy Palmer

03:35

Well, this is truly nerdy, which is, I was covering the tax bill in 1986 which was a massive tax overhaul, it did all kinds of transformative things. And I was watching how colleges were doing to protect all of the things that helped them do things. One of them was the charitable contribution, which everything was massively changing. I thought, this is really fascinating. How's it going to apply to all the organizations that aren't just Harvard? And as I asked that question, and learned more about how nonprofits were working and how they were in coalition, and this was going to be a major thing for them, I got more interested and more interested and more interested in this sector. And with colleagues, we realized that nobody was paying attention to the nonprofit world. Reporters back then said things like, Oh, it's just charity galas. There's nothing much to cover there. It's not important. It doesn't matter.

Jonathan McCoy

04:34

You know, the collective ouch for everybody.

Stacy Palmer

04:36

There was just no belief that this was an important part of the world that deserve journalistic attention. And so that really captured our attention, and we said, well, then we're going to change that and do something for the sector itself.

Becky Endicott

04:51

Well, on behalf of the sector, thank you for bringing us into the conversation every reporter and in. Individual who shows the power of what we can do. We're talking about 10% of the workforce in the United States is employed in this sector. We are like 4% of GDP. I mean, this is a this is a profound impact, not just to the economy, but to communities. So I thank you for fighting for that. And also, I graduated in oh two from journalism broadcasting school too, and it was rough. It was rough then, I'm sure was rough then that I love that we've all found our niches. But I want to talk a little bit about how you in the Chronicle are navigating the future of fundraising in such a shifting landscape. I mean, you've been covering it since the 80s, and we're looking at today and I mean, the last five years have been so categorically different from what I experienced in my first 16 years in the sector. What feels most different about fundraising today compared to when you started,

Stacy Palmer

06:00

fundraising was really just becoming a profession. When we started covering it, as a matter of fact, we ran many opinion pieces where people would say, is it an art? Is it a profession? Is it a science? And really that was a question, instead of today, when we have so many professionals who are doing it and spending time doing it, but, you know, and when you think about that, that was four decades ago that people were crushing this. So this field is really young, and you know, it was mostly college and museums raising a lot of money from very rich people. And then some other things that, you know, the charities that are household names, like the Red Cross March of Dimes, those kinds of things were doing fundraising. But, you know, there weren't nearly the professionals that there are today, and the amount of money that was available to flow into philanthropy wasn't nearly as large. I mean, when you think now about the potential for major gifts, it's incredible. And I think the other thing that's really changed, and we all talk about this now, of course, but everybody was giving. You know, 75% to 80% of Americans were making a charitable contribution, and now that share of people who are giving is more like 50% and so it used to be that when I would talk to people about what we were doing, they all understood, because they made their own charitable contributions. And now I encounter many people who don't find charitable giving and an effective kind of thing to do. They may be very giving people, it's just they're not formally writing a check to a charitable organization. So those things have changed a lot. What's really interesting for us now is that, you know, Ronald Reagan made a bunch of cuts to federal spending, and nonprofits all of a sudden had to find some way to finance their operations, and that's when fundraising really blossomed. Every kind of organization needed to have a fundraiser and needed to think about how to do this. Well, well, now we're in a situation where government cutbacks are extraordinary, and so we're looking back at some of the lessons that people were learning when the Chronicle first got started, and trying to seek out the people who were experts then, and trying to learn from them about what kinds of experiments did people do, and how did fundraising really blossom. And that's a very hopeful thing, that fundraising became so sophisticated, people raised billions and billions of dollars now they weren't doing that. They didn't have to when the government was providing it. So that, to me, is a sign of encouragement that, again, nonprofits will be very innovative and figure it out. Not to say that it's not going to be hard, it's going to be incredibly challenging, but out of what seemed like a very terrible time, very good things

Jonathan McCoy

08:42

happened. I mean, it's interesting now, because your lens, too has to change, because y'all are now a nonprofit. So I mean, some of the same struggles of just thinking about, how do we make this all work? How do we cash flow? How do we accomplish our mission and create the impact we're seeking? Y'all made that jump two years ago to become an official nonprofit. Talk to us about the transition, what kind of led up to it, and then how has it been since then?

Stacy Palmer

09:08

Well, it's really wonderful to walk in the shoes of our audience, and there's so many things that you know I would report on, but I didn't really feel like I understood, and I now know for sure I did not understand many of those things, and it's great for our staff and for all of us to make sure that we're really responsive to what our audience is going through. So that is the best part of it for us, is that we're in that same boat, and that journalism has changed a lot. There was this feeling that journalists should, you know, step back, not get involved, not have anything to do with the people they cover. And now we realize that that's what was turning so many people off about journalism, is that we were too remote. And, you know, I don't have a bias toward nonprofits, because we are a nonprofit. We went into this. Field covering them, because we did believe that they could be powerful forces for good, but we also knew that they needed help, and that sometimes that things go wrong, sometimes there are scandals, there's need for accountability, all of those kinds of things. So being a nonprofit is a great advantage to us. What motivated us largely was the feeling that the field was changing so much, and the needs for information were so much greater, and that we could do more as a nonprofit than we could constrained by the for profit world that we were in. And you know, we have absolutely found that that freedom to be able to do the kinds of things that we think are most important is really wonderful, especially in this moment. Ever since, you know, we saw federal policy shifting so fast and so much, we've needed it to move really quickly, and I'm not sure we would have been able to in our for profit structure.

Becky Endicott

10:55

I'm so proud of you. Thank you to you, to the team for having this bigger vision, and asking these bigger questions, and that sort of preparedness, I'm so glad it's giving you flexibility and boldness, which I've read and I can see working in action, and that is what we need in this moment. But you're expanding the conversation, I feel like even bigger. You have this incredible podcast nonprofits now, where you go in and again, what you've just said, you talk to the people you've had a ton of conversations working with leaders around topics like the power of four generations working together, which I'm obsessed with by the way you talked about leading amid economic uncertainty, strategies for retaining top talent, like so many really rich conversations, can you talk a little bit about how some of those core learnings that you've had, what's bubbled up through some of these conversations that we could all benefit from?

Stacy Palmer

11:53

Absolutely all of them have taught me so much, and I find myself, you know, scribbling notes that are for myself, not just for what we're going to share with the audience, as I've talked to these amazing people. So, you know, it's been kind of a class for me, which has been pretty wonderful. So some of the things that I learned from one of our guests was valor Valerie Jarrett, who's the head of the Obama Foundation. And, you know, I had watched her as a Washingtonian, you know, watched her as a staff member in the Obama White House. And, you know, think of the challenges that they had. They were at war, they had economic troubles, they got the Health Care Act passed, they did all these incredible things. And so I really wanted to learn from her about how she built an effective team and chose the kinds of people she was in charge of assembling the team in the White House that worked with Barack Obama. And she said, You know, one of the things that she really made sure she did was make sure that the people she was interviewing were people who could admit their own mistakes, talk about the things that they learned, be the kind of person too, that was cared about colleagues deeply, had a generosity of spirit and making sure that you know you really when you're in nonprofit work, especially, you spend a lot of time with your colleagues, and you need to be able to count on them. And she made sure that she screened from the get go, the kinds of people who were the right sorts of people to be in the organization. She said, You know, some people would sometimes, you know, she'd ask that famous question, what is your biggest weakness? And they'd say, Oh, this organization that just couldn't handle my talent, because I have so much of it, just like out the door, you know, that kind of person, that's not what we need, you know. And really making sure you're careful from those really early stages in picking your staff, you know, you mentioned that one of the really interesting interviews was about this intergenerational working we have four generations in often in one organization, and that's one of the ones I learned so much from. And one of the our guests, who heads a small cancer charity in San Diego, said that she makes sure that at every staff meeting, she's calling out the people on the staff. She's intentionally thinking about them by generation, asking them what they contributed, what they learned during the week, and making sure that everybody is learning from each other all of the time she Elise, Elsa Morales, Roth, she's just a great leader at bringing people together. Another person we learned from was Baron Seager, who is at the World Food Program, and that's one of those organizations that's clearly been under intense pressure, given all of the kinds of things that are going on with government funding. And he said, you know, he really reaches out to peers a great deal, and make sure that he's constantly asking them for information. You know, whenever he's in a tough spot, he tries to learn from them. And you know, throughout the podcast, that's one of the things that we saw, was that the people who were. Doing excellent work. They were always asking others for advice, going outside of the organization for profit, nonprofit, sometimes with their boards, but they were never shy about saying, I have a problem that I can't figure out how to solve, and not trying to do it on their own. And that was such an important strategy. Another thing that we learned from, you know, we did a special episode as federal government funding cuts were happening, the economy was getting shaky because of the tariffs, and we saw that there was a real need to focus on that. And so we talked to Aisha Benson, who's the head of the Nonprofit Finance Fund, and they're an organization that has tremendous resources on their website if you're looking for more information about how to do things. And she was very clear to say to people you know, focus on your mission and really make sure that you're not allowing mission creep in this moment, it's tempting, because there might be somebody who you know is willing to offer a grant for some kind of special project and some kind of special needs. But if you don't stay focused on your core mission in these really difficult financial times, you'll find yourself in a world of

Jonathan McCoy

16:08

trouble. Such good advice. I mean, you reflecting that back. I feel like this is how we move through this world, too, just getting the lens from these conversations on podcasts like it is a true growth mindset to get just sit across from people and and get that lived experience, play after play after play. So I love that you're in the podcast game now. I'm curious, from all your reporting, what specific like shifts in policy or priorities from the current administration. Do you think that we should be paying most close attention to I know probably there's a new executive order since this podcast has been recorded. But tell me, you know, what are the big trends that you're paying

Stacy Palmer

16:45

exactly so it will be out of date within probably a minute, right? You know, one of the newer executive orders is every agency now has somebody appointed who is looking at the political positions of grantees. And so there's sort of a political litmus test being applied to nonprofit support, and that is a dramatic change from the way you know it is not just about merit and competitiveness, and so understanding what that means and what you need to do is incredibly important to pay attention to, and it's one of those things that happened a couple weeks ago, because it's summer, I think that some people may not have been paying attention to the fact that this executive order came out. We've written a number of articles about what kinds of things you ought to do, and part of it is making sure that you know, obviously you think about your own values first. Where are the red lines for you about what kinds of things you're willing to do and not willing to do? And that's not a conversation you can have by yourself. You need to have, you know, your board talking about it, your staff. Everybody needs to think about that. But once you figure that out, trying to think about things that you can do, that you want to do anyway, that maybe you just need to phrase them a little bit differently. The focus is different. You know, be very aware of what the administration is looking for, but it doesn't mean that you have to give up what you're doing. You just may have to approach it a little bit differently, but you should be thoughtful about that. You definitely need to get more legal advice throughout this whole thing. That's what's so different about the changes that we've seen since Trump took office, versus other kinds of catastrophes, from natural disasters to economic recession, all the kinds of things that we've all been through, covid, all of those kinds of things, you just need to have your lawyer on speed dial now and understand how things are working. You also need to understand what things actually cannot happen. Are illegal, are not true. Executive Orders do not have the force of law. They're going to the courts, and you can see that many times the administration is losing. They recently lost a very major case on the DEI restrictions they were putting on schools and colleges. Now, unfortunately, what happened was that was, you know, six months ago that they put the order in a lot of colleges and schools ended their dei programs because they were afraid that they would be considered illegal. But now the courts have struck that down, so now what we're all going to be watching for is, will the colleges and schools put those things back, or will they still feel very nervous that another threat could come and those things are very real, but really understanding what it is that is real is incredibly important, because there's a lot of misinformation out there, and that's part of the strategy, right is to scare nonprofits from doing some of the work that they need to do. And you know, what is critically important, of course, is making sure that lawmakers understand what nonprofits do they don't. We've seen. Seen again and again, especially in the passage of the tax bill that just happened. They don't understand very well how nonprofits and foundations work. However, when you can educate them, you might remember there was a major threat to foundations in the tax bill, and the foundations were able to mobilize such an effective lobbying strategy that it was knocked out of the final bill. So the more you educate people, it actually does work. It does make a difference, but it has to be ongoing, because there are going to be more and more of these threats to funding, to the way nonprofits work. And you can never sit back and think, Oh, well, we won that victory. That's over. It's not going to be over for a long time.

Becky Endicott

20:43

What I'm hearing in this and thank you for just such a beautiful, broad overview of what's real, because I think that's such the rub right now. Like, what is real? What do I need to activate on what has urgency? I mean, we said this at the top of the podcast, having these conversations raises awareness, it leads to activation. And so I think you've teed us up really well for the era that we're in, but I want to look forward a little bit, because I think this is something that people are having difficulty with. I was literally talking to somebody in our community a couple of weeks ago who was talking about they don't even feel like they know how to make a budget, because so many of their federal cuts have impacted their business, and they're trying to even, they can't even project or forecast for 2026, so if that's you know, we see you, and we know that that fear is real. But talk about this new era that we're about to get into of how wealth is going to intersect philanthropy. You know, we have this new wealth transition that's going to happen. What do you feel like is most misunderstood about how major donors are engaging today, and how do we set ourselves up to get ready for that transition in wealth?

Stacy Palmer

21:57

Yeah, you're absolutely right, trying to think about what this transfer of wealth really means. And I think so many of us who have been in the field for a long time, you keep hearing there's going to be this transfer of wealth, there's going to be these trillions of dollars, and it's never materialized. And so people start thinking, Well, is it truly going to happen? But it is, and we're seeing signs of it. There are trillions and trillions of dollars that are going to be passed on, and because there is so much wealth at the highest levels, there is a lot that needs to go into philanthropy, but it's a new generation of donors who are thinking about it. They have very different interests, in many cases, than their parents did or their grandparents. And while that causes tensions within the family, it gives a lot of opportunities for different nonprofits depending on what your cause is, whether you're somebody who appeals to the grandparents cause or to the children's cause. And so there are ways to figure out which families and which sources of wealth are most likely to be interested in your cause, and start trying to cultivate relationships. We all know that. You know, in major giving, it's a long game. You know, you have to get to know people. You have to show them your programs, show them your impact and work with it. But this is a moment where it couldn't be more important and more fruitful to do it. The great thing about this awful time is that a lot of people are thinking about spending their fortunes faster and realizing that the money that they had put into a foundation that might be, you know, operate forever. Maybe that's not such a good idea. Maybe more money should go out the door. Obviously, we see this example with Bill Gates deciding that he's going to spend down much faster than he planned to. Well, a lot of other people are thinking about the same thing and trying to figure it out. I think the challenge for a lot of both foundations and donors is they may want to do something, but they don't know what is most effective. So as fundraisers, as CEOs, we have to help them figure out what will make a difference and try to gather nonprofit leaders together to help make the case that these are the things that will truly make a difference. One thing I am hoping to be able to persuade donors to pay more attention to is that value of general operating support, multi year support, that even if they didn't give a penny more, and I would love if they would increase payout, but that it's crucial for the planning that organizations need to do in this moment. The reason nobody can figure out how to do a budget is that not only is your government money uncertain, but you don't necessarily know whether that one year grant is going to be renewed. And you know, giving more certainty to people that you know there are three year grants or whatever it is loosening those restrictions, I don't think donors understand that that's what's burning executive directors out. Is this constant scramble for money that you know that it has a direct impact on the ability of the organizations to do the work. So we need to find some ways to. Educate donors about that, and I really think sometimes, while it's working with you know, a trusted CEO can help make the case to a donor that they've been working with for a long time. I do think there's power in numbers and that we all need to find ways to come together to make the case that it's not for my cause or your cause, it's for all causes that smarter grant making will make a difference, especially in this moment.

Jonathan McCoy

25:23

I mean, you are poking the bear over here, talking about, like restricted funding and, I mean, I think of the other status quos kind of that kind of permeate our sector, or definitely outside of our sector, of overhead myths and the restricted funding piece, or even, like, staff salaries under the microscope at all times, inequitable practices. I'm curious from your seat, because we think about our work a lot in the same way that we're starting conversations. We say, What starts here? Ripples. We want to be a change. We don't want to just talk about these problems for another three decades. We want to be the change. What is What do you believe we could come together and, you know, change some of these status quos from your seat. What do you think it's going to take to get there?

Stacy Palmer

26:07

You know, obviously it has to come from some of the donors who already get this and have them talk to their peers about why some of these things make a difference, some really good case studies of what organizations have been able to accomplish, and get rid of some of the fears that donors have about, you know, that the money will be squandered in some kind of way. You know, MacKenzie Scott is such a great example, of course, in giving of, you know, giving these unrestricted gifts, not even asking for proposals, you know, and just surprising, the nonprofits and all the studies that have been done have shown that it's a tremendously effective way of giving, you know, all those concerns that donors sometimes have, is the nonprofit really ready to be on their own without these restrictions, and what's going to happen if we give them such a big gift all at once? And you know, there are these fears of all these very bad things that will happen, and you know, all of the academics the Center for effective philanthropy, has done outstanding studies of nonprofits over the past three to five years, of how they've received the grants, and there are no examples of this going wrong because of the method of giving. Clearly, you know, some groups do better than others because they're doing something that's risky, and the ability to take risk is really important. So some things are going to go wrong, but that's what you want in philanthropy, is that people have the ability to learn new things and do things differently, but we're not seeing examples of embezzlement or bad use of funds, or any of the kinds of things that people worry about unduly. So I think calling that out as an example of something we've seen in real life, that this has happened, and having ways to talk about it. The downside of MacKenzie Scott is the fact that she is so private that, of course, she's not out there talking to other donors, or at least if she is, she's doing it quietly. But you know, in the same way that, you know, when Warren Buffett made his gift to the Gates Foundation and went very public to say, you know, I don't think I can give this money away effectively, I'm giving it to somebody else. Well, that influenced a whole lot of people to say, Oh, I might think about doing that same thing too. I don't have to do this on my own. But that was so public. Everybody knew the giving pledge very public, but what she's doing is not and so therefore it takes, you know, sort of more of us telling the stories, I would say, you know, somebody like Melinda Gates talks about some of these things more publicly. So as we have more people who are maybe those, shall we say, celebrity philanthropists. You know that people listen to that kind of thing can have an effect. But you know, I think in our communities, a community foundation could hold a great gathering of some donors who have given general operating support multi year, and just talk with other donors about why they did it and what impact it has bring along an executive director who's benefited from it. Do it at, you know, in somebody's dining room, you know, have it be very informal, not PowerPoint, not those kinds of things. Talk about what real difference it made. We just need to be more intentional about it and talk about that the way of giving matters as much as it does to the cause itself.

Becky Endicott

29:23

The way of giving matters matters just as much as the cause itself. I mean, I am geeking out on this in a lot of ways. I love that you brought up trust based philanthropy, and I do think the pairing of sharing your big, audacious vision, and also lifting the fears people have with that vision concurrently can help you move so much faster, because I will tell you we have interviewed several MacKenzie Scott recipients, and if you have a board member who has that doubt, or a foundation or a dome. Or we can send you a playlist and tell you the outcome of those gifts, because there was such due diligence on the front end before that call was ever made. I think this, this is really good tenants for where I feel like we need to move and I want to switch a little bit, because we have such a big audience of leaders and social impact leaders in this community, and I want to talk about leadership and talent management, and how do you navigate such extreme change within all of our organizations today? So you've interviewed so many individuals your publication has. What have you learned in this vein and what trends are lifting for you right now that leaders could really glom onto?

Stacy Palmer

30:46

Yeah, well, you know, you were talking about the challenge of doing a budget. So what a lot of organizations are doing is scenario planning. And you know, the scenario plans can be a, b, c, d, at this point. You know it used to be, you just had one or two. Now you need to have many of them and trying to go through that. And what I've asked a number of the leaders on the podcast about, I said, Well, how open are you about the fact that you're doing this? Because that's probably going to scare people when you start doing these scenarios that have pretty deep cuts. And they said, You've got to be open about the fact that these things are going on, and address the fact that you're dealing with them, and also that you want ideas and that you want thoughts from your colleagues about these kinds of things. Now, you know, it's not something that every staff member can weigh in on the decision. It depends on the size of your organization or that kind of thing, and you need to bring your board along as well, and that's the really critical part of making sure that they're engaged all along and know what's going to happen. But the nonprofits that were able to rebound as soon as some of those budget cuts that came, you know, January 22 came out, is because they saw the handwriting on the wall, some of them, you know, I talked to one person who leads a nonprofit, and she said, the second that she saw the Trump assassination attempt, she sat down and did a scenario plan, because she was sure he was going to win, and she knew from the last term what his priorities were, and those priorities were not what her organization does. And so she prepared ahead of time and got her board ready for that. Not all of us have that foresight, but that kind of thing, of thinking about all of that as much as possible is really critical. And one of the things that one of our guests said, you know, is that her organization does a lot of communications with the staff about, you know, what they're hearing in the news. You know, you might hear that you know this is going to be cut there, and that people might worry that you know various policy shifts are going to hurt the organization. And you know, the executive director makes a point of stopping by, you know, staff meetings of the little departments, or doing things, you know, maybe more formally, and saying, Here's what we know, here's what we don't know. But you know, the people on the staff were so grateful because they said, I'm spending all of my time, you know, looking on Google to try to figure out what's going on, talking to my friends, getting on Zoom, we're all worrying about it. And the fact that you told me what I needed to know, and even what you don't know helped me figure out that I can just go back to work and that you will, I trust you, that you will tell me when there are things that are happening that I need to know about. So being aware that, of course, we're all being bombarded by these things all the time, and you just have to constantly communicate with people. So that part's been incredibly important. And you know, I can't underestimate that value of getting board expertise, not just because they're going to have to approve some of these things, but they're going through these changes in their own organizations, and you probably ask them to be on your board, because they have incredible expertise in change. So that's what I see a lot of leaders doing, is really looking out to their board for more help than ever.

Jonathan McCoy

33:53

I love that you give that example of like building trust among the team. It feels like transparency is so important now more than ever in walking through this together, and we talk a lot about retention on the podcast. Sometimes it's about donor retention that's an important aspect. But we lifted a theme across the really conversations to say retention is an inside job, because retaining our staff is so critical, and I know it's a passion of yours, too. I'm curious what organizations or strategies you're seeing out there to really improve retention and support of our well being for the staff members pouring into these issues.

Stacy Palmer

34:29

So I think one of the most important ones is focusing on staff development and growth, and finding ways to do that. And that's so hard, especially in this moment where everybody feels very stressed. So the idea of taking time out for staff or personal development of any kind feels like a luxury, but it's really critical, and so trying to build up the skills of staff members. You know, there are some nonprofits that give access to everybody on the staff. Has some. Kind of professional development training budget or things that they can do often, in some of these cases, I love the leaders who will say, you know, I go out and I, you know, lead a professional development class. We don't talk about the work of the nonprofit itself. I'm focused on your growth, and I'm helping you do this, and I'm sharing with you how I do this kind of thing. There's a lot of online learning that's clearly available for organizations that sometimes, you know, certainly we're not in the day where everybody's in the office at the same time anymore, so you need to be able to give people access. Or at least, most organizations are not in that situation where everybody's in the office. But, you know, offering some kind of online learning opportunity, or giving them some kind of stipend to do some kind of professional development somewhere, and also insisting that they use it, and saying, you know, this is something I care about. I'm gonna look that you did not use it, because that matters to me so much, that you took advantage of this opportunity that we did. So that seems to be the absolute, if you can make that work, there's no harm in offering professional development to people. You know, is it going to do something for everybody? It's probably a little bit different. But sadly, some people have that fear that they're going to leave our organization. Well, if you don't do it, they're probably going to leave your organization faster because they haven't had a growth opportunity. So, you know, that's kind of crazy to be. You can't spend your life worrying about whether people are going to leave you. You have to do everything you can to make sure that they stay. So, you know, I think the proof is obvious there. The other thing we found, talking across the board. And one of our guests, actually, you know, got her PhD studying workforce trends and what kinds of things work on retention and a lot of things are the things that we all talk about, about making sure you have a sense of belonging, and making sure that the organization is really welcoming to different people. But one thing her organization really decided to become, was a very family friendly organization. Really worked at the leave policies, remote work, and tried to get, you know, on a list in her state of you know, the top family friendly organizations. And that was very attractive to the people they wanted to retain. Many of them were younger people starting families or obviously, we know so many people are having the stress of dealing with older parents and trying to help them as well. And so, you know it's different for each organization, but thinking about the needs of the employees that way, and making sure that your organization is a place that supports them through the other parts of their life, not the part that is just at the job.

Becky Endicott

37:43

Thank you for saying that. Thank you for lifting all of these components and elements that make us human, that because we, most of us, got into this work, because we deeply care, because we want to make something better. We want to improve something within our community. So leaders, we know so many of you are cash strapped right now, but even $500 for a webinar or something gives somebody the feeling that they are invested in and I would even add on to that, have them come back and share with the team what they learn. This is the way we all start to lift each other. And I think the starting at home, and making your home a space people want to come into, not just your donors, not just your board, but your staff as well, is absolutely critical. So Stacy, you've given us such a wealth of information. You are so knowledgeable. Love the way you see the world. Love the way you're leading your org. And you are in front of story all the time. And I we want to kind of put you on the spot and say, What is a moment that you've had in your life where philanthropy or generosity has intersected with you and it has taken your breath away? It could be a big moment. It could be a small moment. What's one that stayed with you?

Stacy Palmer

39:05

Well, as you can imagine, in the job that I have, every single day, we're constantly witnessing amazing people. You know, whether they're donors, whether they're nonprofit leaders, whatever they're doing, they're doing something to save the world. And you know, there are times when, you know, we might have all been working really hard, maybe to meet a deadline and get an issue out, and at the end of the day, we'll look at each other and say, Well, that was really hard. But, you know, I wrote about this person and that person and this person and all the incredible things that they had just done, and like, all I had to do was sit at my computer and tap some things out. So, like, really not very hard. So it's very inspiring to cover the people that we cover. But, you know, I was thinking about, you know, the stories that always inspire me tremendously is those people who do not have tremendous means, but who manage to find a way to make incredibly generous gifts, and often you don't know about them. As you know, the number of things where you will somebody will die, and, you know, you thought that they were very poor because they live so modestly, and then they leave a million dollar request to their favorite organization. Some of those things are my favorite stories, but one of the ones that I really love, especially because it happened while the donor was still living and she could reap the benefits of it. About 30 years ago, you might remember a story of Osceola mccardy, a laundress woman, who, you know, saved as much money as she could. She had, you know, she earned very, very little, and she decided that she was going to save it. She had $150,000 accumulated by the time she was in her 70s. And she gave it to Ole Miss, and said she wanted to give it for scholarship money. And they said, that's an amazing because, you know, first of all, 30 years ago, 150,000 was a lot of money she had, you know, she had really been incredibly frugal, and to have this money and that she wanted to give it away, the university was so pleased that they wanted to, you know, give her a building or, you know, name something after her, do something, you know, to really recognize the gift that she had given. And she said, I don't want any of that, but I do want to watch a student graduate who, you know, got my scholarship money. And I thought that if we could all be that person. All see that kind of generosity, absolutely incredible. The

Jonathan McCoy

41:26

love of humankind, I mean, just shines through these stories. Stacy. You know, we end all of our episodes asking for a one good thing. This could be a personal mantra, or something that is true for you, or maybe something that bubbled up during this conversation. What's a piece of advice you'd leave us

Stacy Palmer

41:40

with? Well, one of the things I loved when I was doing the podcast is the number of people who said curiosity is so important. And I do believe, obviously, as a journalist, your life is all about curiosity, listening to other people, asking good questions, and really listening hard to them. But the other piece is just to maintain your sense of humor. These are hard times. This is hard work. This is a really difficult job for all of us. We have to be able to find ways to lighten it, to laugh with each other, and to step back and take some moments of joy. So I think that's the most important one, and I know you all do that through the work that you do as well, but let's remember not to take ourselves so seriously that we run ourselves into the ground.

Becky Endicott

42:26

Amen, double click, high fives, all the things I we have this saying, and I don't know that we ever made it a trend, but it was like joy is a vibe and levity is a vibe, and it breaks the tension and it creates the connection. So I do think while we do have serious problems, and this is serious work, we need to enjoy the fun. We need to enjoy the play. We need to relax as best we can. And let's get back to what really motivates us to get up and go to our jobs with joy, with purpose, with care. So Stacy, I just think you're a treasure to the sector. It is so lovely to visit with you and get all this incredible wisdom. How can listeners connect with you? How can they connect with the Chronicle? And we definitely want to give a little plug into the podcast nonprofits now you dropped spilled some really good tea there about some of these topics. Just tell everyone where they can find you and connect.

Stacy Palmer

43:30

Terrific. Well, we love we do our best work when we hear from the audience about what they need, what kinds of stories, what kinds of guidance you know? How can we do a forum or a briefing that will really help you do your job. So please, please, do be in touch. It's stacy.palmer@philanthropy.com and you will never believe how many people can't spell philanthropy but, but I will say that we have some alternative spellings in domains that we have purchased, because that is not a word unfortunately that even in the field, managed to be able to get right philanthropy.com, is the most common way that people

Becky Endicott

44:14

Jon, do you think the Chronicle has owns more domains than You? John's like, it's 70 or something like

Jonathan McCoy

44:21

that. 42 I topped

Becky Endicott

44:24

out. I over inflated there. Well done, though. Yes, truly, I want to give one more shout out to Emily Haynes, who's an incredible reporter at The Chronicle. I just want to say she interviewed us a couple years ago about burnout and turnover and what we can do to stay well. And I just wanted to publicly thank her and thank the Chronicle for investing in this sector's wellness and its people. We need to have more conversations about it. Thank you for lifting what you've done here. I just say, keep going, my friend. We are rooting for you every step of the way.

Stacy Palmer

44:59

We appreciate. It, and we really do benefit from the feedback. And thank you for mentioning Emily, who is the producer of the nonprofits now podcast, and the reason it's so strong is because of her work. So thank you.

Becky Endicott

45:10

Thank you, Stacy, keep going. We need you.

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