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Eyeway Conversations with Ram Kamal Manoj

Shilpi Kapoor25min

Eyeway Helpdesk

00:07

This podcast is brought to you by BarrierBreak Solutions Private Limited and Score Foundation.

George Abraham

00:32

Hi, my name is George Abraham and welcome to Eyeway Conversations. My guest today is Ram Kamal Manoj, a social engineer, a journalist and a brand consultant. He runs an organization called Chakshumathi. So Ram, what is Chakshumathi? What does it mean and what does it do?

Ram Kamal Manoj

00:54

Chakshumathi is a Sanskrit word. It was an olden day education pedagogy of India. Like the guru used to sit on a little high place and he used to reside the lessons. And the students sitting in front of him, closing their eyes, trying to remember and recite the lesson back. So that is called Chakshumathi.

George Abraham

01:19

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

01:19

So Chakshumathi, the name came to us through one of our friend and guru, Swami Sukhabodhananda. Chakshu means eyes, mathi means intelligence. In other way, we can call it like intuitive mind or insight. I think it is also the most proper name for an organization who is working in the area of print disability.

George Abraham

01:46

How did you start this organization? Meaning are you the starter or were there other people involved?

Ram Kamal Manoj

01:51

I stayed in Delhi from 2008. That is the time I met with Dipendra Manocha. It really really really influenced me the way Dipendra was running Saksham. And by hearing all these requirements which the community needs for improvement.

George Abraham

02:16

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

02:16

On those days in Kerala, there were no training centers. Later there is like Enable India and Rotary Club Cochin, started a training center in Kochi.

George Abraham

02:30

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

02:30

Then Kerala state government also started a training center in Trivandrum. So it was not there before.

George Abraham

02:38

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

02:39

So we thought like, okay let us do something because I was also planning to retire from my professional work partially because I was at the age of 50 that time. So I thought, okay after 50 I need to do some social good things.

George Abraham

02:55

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

02:57

So I discussed it with my friends. On my way to Trivandrum, once I stopped at Bangalore and met Swami Sukhabodhananda who's a corporate guru, who used to do a lot of training programs for corporate companies. Even for Delhi Daredevils, he was a success coach. So I spoke to him about my intention of doing some social good work.

George Abraham

03:25

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

03:26

And I said, "will you be able to give me a very ethnic name?" Spontaneously he said, "Chakshumathi". So that is the reason we named the organization in the name of Chakshumathi. It is not a religious organization at all. We don't have anything to do with religion. Our religion is empowerment.

Eyeway Helpdesk

03:49

If you know of anyone with vision impairment, who needs guidance on living life with blindness, please share the Eyeway national toll free helpline number 1800-532-0469 The number is 1800-532-0469.

George Abraham

04:18

Your journey in the area of work/domain of life with blindness. How did you plan it out and how did it evolve?

Ram Kamal Manoj

04:28

During my early learning period with Dipendra, I understood one major major part. Assistive technology is the answer for all these present day problems.

George Abraham

04:43

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

04:44

And the second problem I identified is short of reading. Reading really empowers a person. And DAISY forum was another major major attraction for me to start Chakshumathi in Kerala. So we started as a DAISY Resource Center in Kerala.

George Abraham

05:02

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

05:03

So we started our job of producing local language books. So it got what exactly what I was thinking- to get books to them and to make them get the taste of technology for reading, then slowly take them to other areas. Kerala got the highest number of graduates and post graduates in the visually impaired community.

George Abraham

05:25

Yes.

Ram Kamal Manoj

05:26

Then I was wondering why they were not getting a job, proper job. So that was my first agenda, to work to get employment for these people, meaningful employment for these people. So we started with a Dosa in the Dark program at the Techno Park in Trivandrum.

George Abraham

05:45

People will think Dosa in the Dark, is that correct?

Ram Kamal Manoj

05:47

Dose in the Dark and it was a successful event because Chakshumathi, when we started we had around 11 staff. All of them are visually impaired. All of them are graduates and post graduates.

George Abraham

05:58

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

05:59

And we trained them computer in and around. So these guys were perfect. They can do any magic with computers.

George Abraham

06:07

Right right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

06:08

So we did this dose in the dark in Trivandrum, Techno Park. So we asked the techies to come and compete with our guys. Switch on the monitor. Give them an Excel solution. We asked them, "Can you do that?" They said, "we can't do that". Okay, we'll switch on the monitor but you can't use the mouse. So they were really struggling. They were really struggling. Then finally were really convinced. Yes, we will give jobs to these people.

George Abraham

06:37

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

06:38

So we had a data of around 45 people those days to get jobs. But none of them could qualify any of these companies because their English language capability is very poor. Their spellings are miserable. And lack of enthusiasm is another major thing. Everybody wants to get a government job. So finally, we managed to get two people employed into two companies- one guy with Allianz and another Stroman systems, Stroman system guy is still working with them. But Allianz guy, what happened is like after a year, he got the best employee award. Fantastic! He is a confident guy anyhow but he got a job in the government. So he resigned and went and joined the government job.

George Abraham

07:24

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

07:25

But my first attempt really opened my eyes. It is not the degrees that is going to get these people job. It is going to be skills, skills are going to give them jobs.

George Abraham

07:37

That is very well said. I think a lot of the education today ignores skills, it's only about root learning. And skills are left in the background, you know.

Ram Kamal Manoj

07:50

It is not going to happen. Also they use a scribe to write the examination.

George Abraham

07:55

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

07:56

Can't expect a scribe to work with them.

George Abraham

07:59

Absolutely.

Ram Kamal Manoj

08:00

So they have to write their examination on their own, then I could say like they are employable.

George Abraham

08:07

Correct.

Ram Kamal Manoj

08:07

So we decided in 2011, okay let us come up with a slogan. It is easy to built strong children than repair broken men.

George Abraham

08:19

Can you repeat it?

Ram Kamal Manoj

08:20

It's easy to build strong children then repair broken men.

George Abraham

08:26

Right. That's an interesting slogan.

Ram Kamal Manoj

08:29

It is not my slogan. It is Thomas Douglas, another famous American senator, black senator who said this seeing the poverty condition of the black people in years without education.

George Abraham

08:43

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

08:43

So he was focusing on the new generation. We can see the difference now, in years. Same thing, we decided we will work only with the new generation. Kids, give them maximum options, give them all the support, so that they can be independent in their studies. And they will come up in their life in a right manner.

George Abraham

09:04

So when you talk about working with children and making them independent, you're talking about introducing them to assistive technology, right from early days. So what does that actually mean? Does it mean that they do their reading, writing and research and exam writing all that on technology?

Ram Kamal Manoj

09:26

Yes yes. That is one major thing. But to make it happen our first challenge was content.

George Abraham

09:33

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

09:34

No accessible content available those days. So we went to SCERT (Kerala), Devendra Mitra, a couple of our best friends from DAISY forum, so they all came. They all tried to make this education department convinced that this is the future. This is the way the content should be made. So please give us the text of the books so that we will convert it into accessible textbooks.

George Abraham

10:03

Yes.

Ram Kamal Manoj

10:05

So they come out with a big question. No, it is copyrighted and we can't give you. So that is the point where DAISY Forum of India thought of putting a bill in the Indian parliament to amend the copyright law. Plus this is free, India amended the copyright law. America amended, some of the European countries then World Intellectual Property organization amended. Now we have more than 11 lakh books available in India for our reading, accessible books. Content is another major thing, then device. Those days devices were very costly. We are talking about like before the smartphones.

George Abraham

10:49

Yes.

Ram Kamal Manoj

10:50

Right. But we used to buy audio players or DAISY plays for these children to use it. Computer is another major issue. Government gives a computer free to a child, I mean a visually impaired person who completed his degrees or who is about like 20-22 years. What's the point in giving a computer on those days instead of giving to small children who study in the school and colleges. But anyway, that happened. We used to buy computers for those smartphones but nothing of this comes from any sponsorship, we didn't have any sponsorship drive. We don't have any bank account. We don't have any money directly involved.

George Abraham

11:40

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

11:40

So our good friends is to buy for the students directly.

George Abraham

11:48

One question here before you go on, Ram. So this would have been what in 2014 - 2015?

Ram Kamal Manoj

11:58

We could say like 2012-2013.

George Abraham

11:59

Okay and how many children you would think actually got into this program of yours?

Ram Kamal Manoj

12:05

We had around 140 children.

George Abraham

12:08

Okay and you kind of work along with them, right?

Ram Kamal Manoj

12:12

Yeah we worked along with them because see, our operational method is very very interesting. Chakshumathi, initially we had 11 staff as I told you. But what happened is like, as a challenge what we faced in Techno Park, we decided to make these people get into meaningful jobs. So all my staff gone. I don't have any more staff. I don't have any more overheads, because previously I was having your own one lakh twenty three thousand rupees overheads. That is not the way I understood, like this is not the way to run the institution.

George Abraham

12:49

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

12:50

We decided like, we should have volunteers, trained volunteers. So we were bonding with the IEEE Institute for Electrical and Electronics Engineers- world's biggest professional organization.

George Abraham

13:06

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

13:06

Because the reason why we went to IEEE, our Chairman Prof. Damodaran. He was another senior most member of IEEE here. And those days, he was the Chairman for the young professionals group as a mentor. So he said, all these engineering college students like we need your help to teach mathematics and science to these kids. We are not talking about accessible things those days. We don't have any. Because hearing a DAISY audio books, learning maths and science is pretty tricky.

George Abraham

13:40

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

13:41

So we had these volunteers who was to go to the students home or the schools or the hostels, and teach them. So that is where we started. And then in 2011 end, we decided to do a summer camp for visually impaired children in 2012 summer. So we did the first eyes free science camp.

George Abraham

14:05

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

14:06

That is the first in the world I could say and we had around 45 children who joined in that particular camp. That is really really an eye opener because all these kids are very brilliant. And they all know the facts. Only thing they don't have an accessible medium to express.

George Abraham

14:29

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

14:29

Even the chairman of ISRO those days. Dr. Madhavan Nair who came and sat because those kinds of scientists used to come and sit and chat with these kids. Because our basic idea is to create scientific temper with them. So Dr. Mahavan after his speech when we were having lunch he said, I never had this much intense question answer section with anyone, even with doctoral guys. So you can see there is no lack of intelligence. There is no lack of curiosity.

George Abraham

15:06

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

15:07

The only thing was accessibility. So then we started working on accessibility side, on how to create text DAISY accessible books.

George Abraham

15:17

This is specifically to bring science and mathematics?

Ram Kamal Manoj

15:21

Into their studies because those children who study in the school year after seven standard unfortunately those days, because of my ignorance our focus was only with the blind schools. Kids came from blind schools. So in the blind schools, there is a tradition like we don't need to teach mathematics. Very basic mathematics they get. They don't get the same thing what the same age kid gets in the normal school.

George Abraham

15:50

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

15:51

That is quite unfortunate. And they were discouraged that, no no no no, math is not for you guys. So this is the kind of kids coming to us for the camp. And after the camp, they go back and say that, no math is acceptable for us.

George Abraham

16:07

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

16:07

We used to teach them mental maths, new techniques. So they were doing excellent in maths and science also. So this way, we created a scientific temper with the kids. Most of the kids later opt to go for science and maths for their plus and plus two studies.

George Abraham

16:31

Now you know, schools and colleges for that matter are a little skeptical about giving admission to children who are blind in the science or math stream. This is the case in most parts of India. How was it different in Kerala?

Ram Kamal Manoj

16:49

It was not different in Kerala at all. For the first student who got nine A plus and one A in his 10th and 11th two plus two examination. He got A in history. Rest everything is A plus. But she was denied admission. So we went to Kerala High Court.

George Abraham

17:13

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

17:14

After a year, we got the order done that no admission should be denied for any eligible candidate. And disability sector is not a matter as long as the child is intelligent. Again, very next year also they denied. So we went to the Child Rights Commission because Kerala government was not at all responding (Education Department). Besides we have the high court order. So Child Rights Commissioner was very very enthusiastic about this.

George Abraham

17:50

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

17:51

And that's the time our second, no, third eyes free science camp was running in Trivandrum. So she came and sat with the children and understood the reality. She sent an arrest warrant to the Additional Director.

George Abraham

18:07

She sent an arrest warrant.

Ram Kamal Manoj

18:09

Yeah. She's got vested power right.

George Abraham

18:12

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

18:13

So the same night, Kerala Chief Minister Oommen Chandy, his office called me 11 o'clock at night and said come to Cliff House, his official house.

George Abraham

18:26

Yeah.

Ram Kamal Manoj

18:27

So I went there around 11:30, he came to the room and gave me a paper and said, "Give me precisely half a page write up of what you want. Tomorrow we have a Cabinet meeting. I will solve this issue". Because one of the Youth Congress worker went and told the whole story of arresting the Additional Director. He came to know about this. So next day in the Cabinet meeting, he gave the paper to the Education Minister and said next week, I need an order. In short, in the end, last date of the 10 day science camp, he came to the camp, sat with the children and given us the order.

George Abraham

19:12

Okay, I have a question here. Which is that it's one thing to you know, give an order that blind children should be admitted into science and maths courses. Now, if you don't have teachers who have the wherewithal or the experience to teach the subject, the pedagogy is also as important.

Ram Kamal Manoj

19:31

Yeah.

George Abraham

19:32

Admission is one issue. Content is another issue, but pedagogy also is important. So how did you address that?

Ram Kamal Manoj

19:40

To tell you a very interesting reality, there is no need for any extra training for any of these teachers. Or what we need is go sit with a teacher, brainwash he or she, that this kid is too intelligent than you. All that you do, whatever you write in the blackboard, talk and write, the child will understand. Any diagrams which is not accessible there, draw in their hands. This I'm talking about in 2013.

George Abraham

20:15

Okay.

Ram Kamal Manoj

20:16

That is what we had...

George Abraham

20:18

...before the tactile diagrams came into picture.

Ram Kamal Manoj

20:20

...because this is one of the reason the tactile innovation came. Because every year IIT Delhi send eyes tech lab guys to our science camp to sit with the kids and understand and come out with a solution. So that is what we need, rest we have given every child a laptop and ask them to work digitally.

George Abraham

20:46

So in other words, what you're saying is that there is no real rocket science involved. Have an open mindedness and a willingness to engage, and willingness to innovate and be creative in the way you actually engage with the blind children?

Ram Kamal Manoj

21:03

Absolutely absolutely! Because see, the major issue is mentality.

Eyeway Helpdesk

21:12

To support our work with the blind and visually impaired, you can visit the donate page on our website, www.scorefoundation.org.in. Please note, www.scorefoundation.org.in.

George Abraham

21:39

Now you've been working close to 10 years I think, you said you started in 2010-2011. And it's about 10 years and you have certain very very strong learnings in the sense that you've come to the conclusion that it's a step technology, content and motivated positive catalysts can actually transform the way blind people evolve in our community. So do you have any ideas or thoughts or plans to actually share or scale up this learning and understanding that you have to the rest of the country?

Ram Kamal Manoj

22:18

You all heard about Bookshare right? Benetech corporation.

George Abraham

22:21

Yes.

Ram Kamal Manoj

22:22

Benetech is always with us because you know Chakshumathi doesn't have any money. We don't have any money. We don't use any money. You don't take any money also. But we create projects and requests Benetech to take the turn. We jointly sit together and design projects.

George Abraham

22:38

Okay.

Ram Kamal Manoj

22:39

And Benetech gives a good set of testing kits to us. That is what is good thing. So the year back, we decided to go for converting one blind school in every state of India to completely digital. Because blind schools are resisting to become digital.

George Abraham

23:01

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

23:01

So if we convert one school, the rest will follow. That is what our idea. And also it can create a local awareness to the other children who is not in the normal schools can also see that there is something like this. So currently it is going in 18 states at the moment, the training programs are happening. Here one of the major tasks we have is creating accessible content, studying content. So if you look at textbooks, all state education research boards used to produce the textbooks for that particular state.

George Abraham

23:38

Right.

Ram Kamal Manoj

23:38

But mostly it is a copycat of NCERT textbooks. So we already have NCERT textbooks accessible. Maths & science, if you look at it. it is there and most of them are produced in Kerala here. So for the children, currently from 8th to 12th standard, almost all the states got their books in maths and science and most of the textbooks done by Bookshare.

George Abraham

24:08

So the school textbooks for science and maths are available available upto class 12?

Ram Kamal Manoj

24:14

Yes yes.

George Abraham

24:16

State board or you also have CBSE?

Ram Kamal Manoj

24:20

State boards as well as NCERT.

George Abraham

24:23

Okay okay.

Ram Kamal Manoj

24:24

Besides these they get whole range of mathematics and science books in Bookshare. So a child with curiosity can go any level.

George Abraham

24:35

Well, you know, this is a very interesting set of experiments that you have been doing and there are a lot of very positive outcomes and learnings which could be trends that could change the way blind students or blind children evolve into citizens of India and become part of the human resource of this country. So thank you very much, Ram for sharing your story, telling us about various things that you've done and thank you very much for your time and wish you the very best.

Eyeway Helpdesk

25:18

This podcast was brought to you by BarrierBreak Solutions Private Limited and Score Foundation.

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