Well hello everybody. Good Morning Vietnam. I am on the road somewhere in California and another dreary Rabiei hotel room and I have a one I have a one hour hard stop because I am on the road, but nice to be with you all again I would like to see all my friends and enemies who are here. If you're new to this event, what we do is this is a wonderful, freestyle kind of q&a thing. Where some questions that are submitted in advance, but mostly really honestly I'm here to just hang out with you all and talk about whatever you want to talk about. We started this well over two years ago, the whole COVID thing. I had no intention of it continuing. But it seems to have continued so here we are. I asked Alyssa also to put up a couple things that I've got coming up. My only dream yoga retreat in person. That is really stunning place I've never taught it before but really beautiful outside of aspen. So there's a link to that. And then then law nature mind retreat. I've been a member but I've never taught there. And so to actually hang out there with Bob Thurman. For a week. That's going to be fun. I'm super looking forward to that. And so what you can do, I will I will start by reading through a couple of the questions that did come in. But in the meantime, this is the time either in the chat column, raise your hand. I'm basically here to just chat with you all and see what might be on your mind. Anything is free game where obviously within limits right. So so Okay, so here we go. And I have to work off my phone instead of my other computer. So this is from Marta. Hi, Andrew. I would like to know the main difference between yoga nidra and Dream Yoga. I understand the main point of both is to be awakened deep Delta, deep sleep delta sleep is that right? No, not quite. Know. So yoga nidra. Nidra is the Sanskrit word for sleep. And so you would think that yoga nidra sleep yoga would be connected more to sleep yoga in the Tibetan tradition, but it's actually not. So the point is not to be awakened the delta sleep at least as far as I'm aware of. It is asleep yoga in the Tibetan tradition also called Ursula yoga luminosity yoga. Yes, that's the point is to be lucid, and deep dreamless delta sleep, but yoga nidra is actually of all nocturnal meditations yoga. Nidra is the closest to liminal dreaming. I'm sure they're at the highest most refined levels. Yes, the idea is to maintain awareness lucidity through all states but overtly. It's very wonderful. Hindu based practice where to process of progressive kind of body scanning type thing. There's a lot of there's a big literature on this now there's quite a bit out there a radiant luminous I think it was called Tracy Stanley wrote a book oh, what's the name of it? Alyssa you could probably go with that. She interviewed me a little over a year ago when her book came out really wonderful lady. Radiant something or other radiant luminosity or something like that. She she talks a lot about it, as does my friend Richard Miller. There's a bunch of people who work with yoga nidra. And so the idea with yoga nidra is basically to maintain this quality relaxations, systematic, you can say almost lucid sleep onset in the liminal phase, usually hypnagogic phase when you're actually taping off into sleep and if there's somebody listening that knows more about yoga nidra than I do, I am not an expert in yoga nidra it's not one of my main practices. But it's definitely more connected to liminal dreaming than Dream Yoga. And again, because you're working with the mind they're obviously all have some relationships. Because if you're working with developing a kind of lucidity, slash awareness in any state is going to have kind of repercussions in the others. But it's not the same, at least in the Tibetan world. Yoga Nidra is not the same as Dream Yoga. It's not the same asleep yoga is mostly connected to liminal dreaming or hypnagogic hypnopompic phases. Okay. Cool. So here is the one that came in. From Gary. I recently had an unexpected but significant moment of lucid dreaming in which I woke, woke up in my dream, knew I was dreaming and had a fleeting experience of luminosity in the dream. And Gary, if you're here, I would love to ask you what that means to you. And then I'll finish the rest of your comments. Last question. Because this is a when people say luminosity, I'm not sure what exactly that means for you. Does it mean you had a you saw some light in the dream?
I will. I am here. Oh, you
are there. Fire away. Let's have a chat.
I think what I what I'm saying is I had a momentary sort of complete non dual experience. Beautiful.
Then that is Lumosity? You're correct. Because usually when people use that term, they're referring to some kind of light thing. If Yeah, okay, so let me let me ask you a little bit more about a girI. So this happened when you were actually in. Tell me a little bit about the actual experience, if you don't mind?
Well, it's been some weeks since I submitted this question, right? And I'm afraid I can't really give you the particulars of the dream. Okay. But I did do a kind of self induction before I went to sleep. Very, very primitive, elementary kind of intention of which I believe you, maybe you have have offered yourself as a technique.
It's more about that. So you were you were literally creating the intention like a dream incubation thing that you wanted to have an experience of luminosity or what were you doing that
actually triggered that No, I will as I was lying down to go to sleep. I visualized. I did a bit of deity yoga, right. And I visualized myself lying with my head in the lap of the Deity Google with an intention to I guess it's a really a very elementary suggestion, you know, that I'm intending to to have have a lucid experience in a dream.
Right. Right. In which if you don't mind me asking I'm curious which deity that might have been.
Generally? I am. I choose long Champa.
Okay. Well, that's a pretty good choice. You can't do much better than long term. Well, yeah. So if you if you're actually literally having, you know, luminosity, this is one of those terms. That's there's often confused. It's fundamentally inseparable from empty. Luminosity and emptiness are two sides of the same coin. And so what you said automatically pings that that was an experience of luminosity. And so if you generally hear that, it sounds like you did, then high five movement that's really awesome. Let me
just another note about the fact that it was brief. Does not really convey the impact that it had. It's correct.
That when I woke up the fact that I knew I had had I had awakened in a dream and had that experience brief as it was, was a dramatic sort of message. That right now that is an also a possibility that this is also the dream as beautiful.
That's really great. That's spot on. Yes. So you basically, you know, you return to the screen of consciousness, so to speak, the display of ventured off, no waking state experience, no dreaming state experience with a bleep the blissful tool called screen background screen was sort of speak your experience. And at that level is, you know, probably, it wasn't really your experience because you weren't having it. It was having itself right. And so it's like this is actually the important point. This is a glimpse of the awakened, non dual experience and in a very real way, you can't have it. And so when people say, oh, I want to attain enlightenment, well, those are mutually exclusive turns, you actually can't attain enlightenment. ego can't attend his own funeral. And so that in itself is revelatory that when you have experience usually when not usually, but when you have it, there's no you there. And that's one reason it's so impactful, because you're returning to the really to the matrix of reality. And it's a little bit like a near death experience. I often say this. In fact, it is a type of death experience. You don't have to have an N D over and over for it to change your life. And so if you have a true luminosity, non dual experience, these are game changers. It's a glimpse of the path of saying because there's so utterly foundational and so even it like you said, the brevity doesn't lessen the profundity. So even though elastic who knows how long, a couple seconds, minutes, it's huge because it really points out the nature of things. And so high five on that, that's really spot on. And then you also had here, Gary, let me just finish the rest of what you wrote and we'll see if you want to run with this a little bit since I know it's been a while since I've been on these q&a things. So since this is used baking, since I've had other more substantial experiences of luminosity. I'm wondering if you have an opinion about whether any such prior experience might influence what might happen in dream? Oh, yeah, for sure. On a number of levels, one is that if you have a true experience of luminosity, then you bring that experience. It's a little bit like in Hindi language difference between Turia and Tria Tita. I like I actually liked their framing of that, that if you actually have that, then the type of dream that you have that arises within that it's if you're doing deity yoga, this is akin to the Samadhi of suchness. If that language means anything to you, that everything if you're doing full blown Unum deity Yoga, you may remember you recite the mantra on syllable shoulders or Redemption was sort of fun. So that's that theoretically is supposed to drop you under the Samadhi of suction, which is the non dual state. And then from that state, you self generate the image of the Deity. Well, exactly the same thing can happen in the dream. And so what happens there is you have that type of experience. And then the dream that that can arise within it, because it doesn't have to be just the screen, you can still have the display arising within it. In fact, that's really the point. Because if you just hang out in that total non dual experience, without any display, then what do you do when you come back into the display? Most people tend to lose the essence right? And so this is a little bit long winded response to a really great experience, that in what Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche talks about as a clear, light dream. These are the most advanced types of dreams. Were using you're using this languaging so I'm going to engage it with you. This is the union of generation and completion stage practice. Where you're resting on the completion state. That's the non dual thing. And then what happens on the dream is if it's really done properly, it's completely intentional. So it's a voluntary dream that arises to fuse with that experience of non duality, ie the Samadhi of such as, and then there's a little advanced type of drain, then that's what's called a clear light dream, where generation stage and completion stage are happening simultaneously. And that's the whole point. So that's probably that's fantastic. That's really great stuff. And so you know, just continue. Try to use as a type of pointing out or pointing in, within the practice becomes one of stability, enhancement augmentation. So that this doesn't become just a blip. It's a glimpse that that is transforming to a gaze, you know, and so that's really high five that's that's a pointing out time transmission. So very good for you, my friend makes me smile. Anything else will be around on that.
No, that's plenty.
On one level, really nothing needs to be said but you can you can use it in those types of ways and absolutely positively informs and transforms your dream and then of course, one further step because this is connected to the previous question about this is this is real sleep yoga. Definitely build experience. So then one final step is not only do you then take that Samadhi of sessions Clearlight bringing into the dream, the dream is automatically a dream of clear light. But then what happens is you take it one step further. You still leave that light on the light doesn't turn off and then you wake up to this dream. And then this then is it appears like what if it was like an illusory form, right? That's what's called perfectly pure illusory form, see? And so this is the genius of this sort of thing. You have this experience. The light stays on clear, light dreams. The light stays on when you wake up into this. You see this as a dream, see? And it's then all infused in your experience and becomes one of non duality not just in the deep dreamless sleep, but through dream and also the waking state. That's called Buddhahood.
So well, just maybe a footnote here. The the experience that I had in the dream was identical to the an a, an experience of non duality in that I had previously had in waking state. That was a complete confirmation. You know, there was no mistake about
it. That's exactly right. That's a really good point. Because that's what exactly like you said, that's when you know because you've met that correlative state of mind during the day. And so for people listening, how do you cultivate this? Well, by doing the practices that match this particular state of mind during the day, the formless meditations, right completion stage in your languaging Dogen Maha Mudra. And so, yeah, just really good stuff, my friend. Appreciate it. Thanks for sharing. Very cool, love it. Okay, so do we have any live questions or dead questions?
Yeah, let me get your
radiant rest. Yeah, radiant rest. Tracy's down. That's it. She's a cool gal. I really liked her.
Hello, Andrew. I love to hear your answer to Gary really touches on a lot of what I have to cover. I use an aura ring. And about two or three months ago, I started having episodes of waking in the night and not being able to get back to sleep for hours are waking early and not being able to get back to sleep. And my aura ring was lugging it as REM sleep and sometimes as deep sleep. So that I found very curious this last weekend when I was in retreat with you I decided I might dream yoga was stalled. So I decided while I was in retreat, to use Galantamine for three nights and see if I couldn't crowbar something loose. And as you say, all have been broken. I had some amazing dreams first, the first night I started with very anxious dreams. I woke up with my heart pounding panicking. And I was laying there I literally I can feel the bed the temperature of the air, I can open my eyes and see my bedroom. And my aura ring is still seeing this as REM state. So I decided I was lucid enough in that moment that I decided, let's go with it and see what we can do. I started being able to meditate in that state. I've never done that before. The second night. I was in the dreaming after the Galantamine. And I was literally walking through working through collations first it was shame and in the dream as it manifested. I got less and less attached to the shame and more and more in like a state of bodhichitta towards the people who are perpetuating deliberately trying to perpetuate the shame. And then it shifted to attachment, and then paranoia, and then anger and fear. And each time I walked through until I started to liberate it, and then I woke to this charm hybrid state. And in that I started being able to do generation and completion stage practice, like you said, it started happening simultaneously. And I thought, well, what should I chant tonight? And yes, she so yells retreat, some came to me. Are you you're familiar with that right?
Well, I'm not sure exactly which one of these No, hoss but okay.
It's every appearance and every event or the minds miraculous display in the spacious expanse I see nothing to fear. It's just reflexive radiance of mines, clear light and nothing else. Hence, there's no reason to react. All Activity is my adornment, therefore better to rest peacefully and contemplative evenness and I that ran through my head spontaneously, and I started to laugh, because in that moment, I realized they weren't words anymore. I was there. And I just stayed in that state. And that night that state was logged as a two hour section of REM sleep. It was incredible. Now on the third night, it's like the first I have the crazy dreams first, excuse me the loot the hybrid state first. And I started with the the Red Lotus and the chant in the throat and then it automatically defaulted to what I learned from Lama Surya das with the white light in the forehead and started the spin clockwise and I could feel myself the sense so this was the first time I actually remained conscious going into the the deeper states. And then the white light started to move from chakra chakra and it felt like I was being healed. It was amazing. And then it went into the dreams and the crazy dreams were going on. And the last thing I remember from the crazy dream was this guy talking to these other women about me and putting up his hands like what can I say? And he said, it's her beldi now this is a word I never heard but then my alarm woke up, went off, and I woke up. And I immediately googled the BLT and it's a real word in Morocco and it's very popular. It it's very similar to like the Japanese ethos of finding beauty and imperfection. It was just just very, very cool that it turned out that it was a real word. But there was something I access through between the retreat with you and these dream states that I felt like I reached into some aspect of clear light nature that I feel there's a certain degree of non recidivism that came along with it. So I've been feeling kind of spacey in my days, because life has become very dreamlike. And I have to be very careful, like when I drive and stuff. But I'm wondering if this is like my new normal.
Well, we'll see. I mean, we'll see. It's hard to say but first of all, geez, everything between you and Gary, that's just fantastic. I love hearing this sort of thing. But you know, it's really interesting because I mean so many things he said they're just so cool. One is in fact, when you have like a pointing out transmission and again, I'm tossing I'm tossing up particular terms for you and Gary, the main Outland with other people that are listening, and I hope that's okay with them. But when you have like a burning up transmission or you have an experience of clear light, and as you know, often you're not entirely sure, right if you've actually clicked into it. Well, one way is in fact, to register what you registered is that your experience does in fact become more dreamlike is it every aspect of it is it's less real, it's more ephemeral, ephemeral. ephemeral, right, less, less, more ephemeral, less solid, and a little bit less dualistic and so, I mean, it's just really great stuff, whether how stable that will be I can't say. I think the most important thing is well, let me ask you this before I give you my riff on it, what are you going to do with it now? Or how has it affected you and what is your intention and focus on working with it?
Well, the first thing I've noticed is that I'm there's ego blowback. There always is whenever I make a big leap.
So how's that registering? How are you going?
While the motions really vivid, but it's interesting because when they start to arise, for like a nanosecond, it grabs me. And then I immediately default to my dream states I have this past weekend, where it's like, I worked through this, I know that there's nothing to it, it's just emptiness. It doesn't have its hold on me like it used to. And that's real obvious.
That's and that's colossal. I mean, that's exactly. Childhood drug Rinpoche sneaks really beautifully about this. That's exactly one of the wonders consequences of this is that that little previous crap show it just continues to play out. But you'll find yourself not listening to it as much because you realize it's just like use your shoulder. So your surge is this kind of luminous radiant display. And it doesn't have any more power over you and this is really what absolute city is right? When the world flash your mind, whatever no longer has power over you. And so that's that's no small thing. So the display still there. The phenomenal world is still there. You see through it with your X ray eyes appears to be a little bit more dreamlike. It doesn't have the same power that it did before. Same thing with the contents of mind there's still some residue until the eighth consciousness is completely purified. There's going to be hiccups that the recidivism part if you capitulate, reify go with those. But as you become more spacious and you're on me that is spacey, then it arises itself liberates doesn't have the same traction. And then it just becomes even in a certain way it gets thinner and thinner and thinner. And then eventually Yeah, all sorts of things can happen. But really the most important thing perhaps if I might interject, is don't take it too seriously. relive that experience in the same way you relating to everything else. Don't try to reestablish it, because you will notice that one of the characteristics of what brings those experiences about is what tremendous openness and so ego can come in as you as you intimated, and what does it want to do? It sticks to everything, so it'll stick to that and try to reinstate it. That doesn't mean you can't Aspire. But there's a difference between aspiration and grasping, right? And so the really the best way to take this experience and Yom and turn it into realisation is to let it go. And then that way, it'll just be another one of these endless displays that does not become problematic. In the slightest, unless you take it too seriously. And try to reify it and try to repeat it. So I mean, really, that's just awesome stuff makes me smile. That's really beautiful. Good for you. And you know what to say and soaking in all this stuff, too. You know, like the PLM programs and everything else. That's the other thing too. I mean, what was I stressing throughout that program, right? The other immediacy of the ultimate puroland, but you don't have to wait till you die to enter ultimate poverty, clear light mind. You're in it right now. And so the fact that maybe some of that actually reached you, which sounds like you did again, it's just wonderfully empowering thing that what we're looking for is hiding in plain sight is much more obvious than we can imagine. We just have to open to it. And so the fact that it's like, oh, no, Gary didn't have that experience. Oh, no, you didn't have that experience. You absolutely did have that experience. And that gives you a sense of like, oh my gosh, it really is just like right here right now. Always. I just need to open to it and recognize it. And so that's really, really cool. So thanks.
Thank you. Can I just ask you quickly, Steve, I'm experiencing Is that something you've discussed? Maybe I've missed through the years. That hybrid state where it's like I definitely feel like I'm awake but I'm getting my I'm experiencing liminal states I'm you know, my ring is saying I'm dreaming sometimes it's deep sleep.
Yeah, yeah, these states are not uncommon, you know, the, the kind of the growth classifications that we have are waking, dreaming, sleeping, even neurologically, now the when they get more refined with fMRI and these these brain imaging techniques, they're discovering that the brain parts of your brain can be asleep and awake and dreaming all at the same time. And so the correlative experience for you and consciousness would be this malleable hybrid state. It's a limited state. And those are just fantastic. They're they're really a wonderful kind of bleed throughs of the ultimate nature of what I say the ultimate democratic nature of all experience. And so this kind of hybridization can lead to a deeper quality of the great equanimity one taste, where you have this playful, light hearted, open relationship to whatever arises and yes, when you come out of it, you can say oh, that was a hybrid state. That was a this day that was a bad state. That's great. That's helpful to understand. But when you're actually in it, don't label it just just simply witnessing, just to say, oh, like, wow, look at this. Oh, that's Oh, that's amazing. And then if you do that, then there's the radiant display of it all just like you're just Oh, he'll just keep dancing right? So you're this is the TV experience, right? Your your sky dancing in the sky of your own mind. And so that's pretty cool. High five. I love it. You guys makes me thanks for sharing. Beautiful, beautiful, okay. All right, we've got Mary Ann with hand up. Hi, Marianne. Hi, Andrew. How are you?
I'm great. I'm great. I love that. I have to ask you
a question. Are you an artist so those are those are your words back there? Yes. A wonder those?
Oh, I don't have to lie down I don't think you can see that. Yes, I've been a painter for 35 years.
I love those. That's great. It didn't mean to interrupt you but I noticed that the other day and she an artist.
Oh, thank you so much. And I just really want to appreciate what what Debbie just shared I just I can relate. So much to what you shared and with, you know, the hybrid state and the liminal state. And I know I mentioned briefly at the end of our retreat Sunday that I've come to really love the middle of the night when I'm awake. Right? Yeah, I used to despise it. And now I consider it I think you called it the hour of God. And it really feels that way. And so, you know, I'll get up and go to the bathroom and go back to bed and begin to meditate. And as I shared with you, I will start to see colors and white light and different kinds of sensations of brilliance when I'm awake. But then when I start to go into the liminal space I often it seems as though I leave my body and at the moment or leave my body there's always this loud, deep whooshing sound that goes with it. What's That's my first question like what isn't that I've had this happen off and on my whole life. I've never been able to talk to anybody about it.
Yeah, we can talk to weirdos like me about it. Like you're in a certain way. This is my playful language. You're flushing away from materialism. Right? So the whooshing sound is not at all uncommon. When people will people often report this auditory thing both leaving and coming back abortion thing. So that's not at all uncommon. But let me ask you this. So how I'm curious what are the parameters that make you say this was an out of body thing? I mean, you literally see yourself coming out and you're looking down with your lucidity or say more about that.
Yeah, it's not so much that I see myself but I feel myself and so because I'm in this liminal state. It feels absolutely like I just got up or just want to the left of my body or the right of my body or that my legs are five feet above my head. And then if I wake up a little bit, I go oh, I'm my body's over here. It's not over there. So I physically feel like my body is has moved in and around like my bed and stuff when my body is actually not moving. You know, it's just it's a physical sensation that my body sort of around my body like
I got so in how does it feel? Emotionally effectively? I mean, what's the correlative kind of emotional response to that?
Um, it's pleasant. It's curious. I don't really know what's gonna happen next or where I'm gonna go next, or how far away sometimes. Sometimes, I mean, at some point, then at that point, I'll just go into sleep. So then I'll just start dreaming or whatever. But then, and this is a little bit embarrassing. I've never shared this in public, but when I do go back in my body, I kind of I kind of went back into my body. I have an orgasm for you. I don't know why. I mean, it's happened my whole life and it's just the actual act of landing. Back in my body. I have an orchestra
Oh, her name will come to me. She writes about this. All the time. She's She's one of the coolest her name will come to me. I'm sure during the course of this, this grouping together. He's one of the preeminent voices in the world of lucid dreaming, and I can't surface her name by now, but she's written a lot about this sort of thing.
Really, because I've never been able to talk to anybody that knew anything about that part.
Yeah, yeah. And I will leave send me your if I can't remember for Lord sakes, senior moment. That said, What is your last
name? Mariana Bennett,
send us or send me privately your email. I'll send you her her name. She endorses she endorsed my dream. You know, the book I wrote with Harbinger press. Anybody gasp she was sweet enough to endorse it for me on the back. But she's written a lot about this sort of thing. And I would probably defer a little bit more to her riffs on that sort of thing. But, you know, it's amazing. All sorts of white remarkable experiences can take place and this is absolutely not at all unheard of. But I'm curious. So what where does it leave you? And what do you sort of make do with it? I mean, this is something that's happened with some regularity for you and how do you how do you bring like a path quality to this?
It does happen with regularity. Like I say at that point, then I usually just go to sleep. It's you know, by then it's usually around three in the morning and I treasure those two hours from three to five. Then I usually have some amazing dreams. Yeah, so some sometimes lucid dreaming not as frequently but even with lucid, they're like just these very, you know, luminous rich kind of dreams. So I don't know it's just it's always just been in that liminal state when I've had this feeling of leaving my body. And then I'll just add one last thing. Since I've moved into this house, I don't know if it's this house or if it's just the different phase in my life or, or what's happened. I'll get the whooshing sound, I'll leave my body and now it's as if there's an entity at the bottom of my feet, actually pulling my energy out from my feet. So instead of me just leaving my body feels like there's somebody there kind of pulling me out of my body
that feels a little bit unsettling. I mean, how's that register with,
um, a little bit? It's not. It's not particularly unsettling, but it's not particularly like a being that I feel particularly drawn to it's kind of just curious, like, Who Who is this guy?
Let me ask you. Other questions around this. And so are you able to actually move your physical body when you're in that kind of space? Because I'm
trying to figure out if you know, I can't move my physical, I can't move.
You're in REM sleep because your body's paralyzed. And so what your experience is and you're actually experienced that type of sleep paralysis, which is, again, this is actually worth knowing, because it's just helpful to know the kind of the landscape of the territory that you're experiencing so that you just have some idea when you're experiencing these sorts of things like where I am, what's happening and perhaps how to relate to it and so, because you couldn't move your body which again, is usually when these experiences take place, you feel an external agency, sometimes it feels threatening, sometimes it feels sort of neutral. Very, very often. This happens with the sleep paralysis state and this this occurs in REM sleep in the Hudson. I'll say something about this, how I can do the OBE thing. When you're when you're in REM sleep you're you're experiencing normally you're in sleep a Tonja your body's like a rag doll, you're paralyzed. It's nature's way of present, preventing you from acting out your dreams. And so when you have what you're having, that's an experience of sleep paralysis, which is when you recognize the UN sleep a Tony. You can't move. That's the key. You can't speak you can't move except for your eyes and your diaphragm, your breathing. And so that can help you understand when you have it again, it's like, oh, this is the paralysis. How cool instead of like getting wigged out or freaked out is because sometimes that can happen you feel threatened, violated, whatever, you can't really move someone's in theater bed, pulling on your whatever. And so, the reason I also mentioned this and this gives you a little bit more nuanced is most and again I'm not sure an empty is more questions. Most so called out of body experiences in the nocturnal mind are actually various forms of altered embodiment, connected to dreams. And I'm not I'm not I'm not saying that's what's happening with you. I just don't know I don't have enough information.
I'll say that again. What do you mean altered embodiment
is actually not out of your body. It's an altered embodied experiments, not an actual out of body experience. Okay, I can direct you to some literature that you may be interested in reading about this because most people when they say they're having OBE ease, they're actually not having movies. They're actually having an altered body experience. It's a type of dream or hyper lucid dream. Hmm. Evan Thompson has written really beautiful about beautifully about this in his book, waking, dreaming being. And also Susan Blackburn in the anthology sleeping brain waking mind or something like that. This is helpful to know because, again, it doesn't in any way dismiss what you're expressing not on the slide. It just helps you understand. Hey, was I really out of my body? Right I in an altered dreamscape, and most of the time, you're in an altered dream gait, and there are ways to actually test it. So next time you have it. You can do several things. One is try to remember to spin when you're in that space. So you wake up, you think you're outside of your body, on weightlessness. Whether you're having an OBE or hyper lucid dream is literally Oh, I'll remember what he said. I'm going to do the whirling dervish thing, I'm just gonna stand. Okay, if you stand and then you stop spinning and the scene is completely different. You're dreaming. And you stop and it's the same you're having an OBE, you see the difference? Because when ever fly this this is one way you could change the scene in a lucid dream. If you don't like what's happening is you spin and then when you stop 99% of the time when you stop the scene will be different
than Right. Right. Right. Right.
If you have that that's a loose That's a dream slash lucid dream. That's not an OBE, right other thing and I've done this. I do these all the time to test because sometimes I can't tell. Yeah, I was doing this thing over the over the Julian's weekend where I was trying to go to the comedy because it's part of the Dream Yoga practice. And I had this I didn't share it with the group is there was not enough time, but he had this really awesome dream. And I said, Gosh, I wonder if I'm into comedy because I was doing the Amitabha thing and I really wanted to meet Amitabha that night, and I woke up and it was a lucid I wasn't sure if it was a lucid dream, or hate and like my answer poverty and so I conducted a couple of tests. What to do, one of which was spinning. The second one was actually trying to read something. And so you will find that when you're in an out of body experience, you can read. If you're having a hyper lucid dream, it's really hard to read. In fact, it's almost impossible. And so I was sitting there trying like Jesus to read this thing, and I couldn't read it. And I said, this is not an OBE. This is just a really high level. And so anyway, this is just really fun, cool things that you can play around with so that when you're having these experiences, you can say with some authority, it's like, oh, wow, this is what's happening. This is where I am, because this will help you also when you're dead, when you Pardo's that you actually know that you're in the bodies, and that you're not just having a dream. So all this stuff isn't just like philosophical mumbo jumbo. This is the sort of stuff that can help you create signpost and certain metrics and certain tasks. Were actually where your mind is when you're having these particular experiences.
Well, this is so helpful and I've never heard of an altered body experience. So it might be that I am very aware of being in my room. Yeah, yeah.
Yep. But check out I really recommend these books if you don't have them anyway, especially everyone's book is really brilliant waking dreaming beings are really really sharp scholar. And he has an entire chapter on this stuff, as does Jane gokken. Bach, so I would check it out because then when you read it, you'll go oh, okay, that makes sense. To me. That's kind of what was happening.
Finally, a resource. Thank you so much.
Welcome so much. I love Kingda it is Patty Garfield, Patricia Garfield, goes green and gal she's written all about I don't remember all of her books, but she's written a ton about the kind of orgasmic quality of these types of dreams. One of the reasons she's like are really big into it. Hey, whatever makes you happy. Right? So she wasn't she hasn't. Again, I don't have it with me. So I can't recall she has one particular book on this. I think the title itself was pretty explanatory about this kind of orgasmic quality of having these sorts of dreams. So she's great. She's She's one of the real forces in this field. So see all these magical correlative benefits that you get from doing this stuff.
I'm so grateful. Thank you so much for your time, everybody. Yeah.
I love hearing the stories. Thanks, everybody. See ya. See ya. Yeah. Hey Andrew, are you able to move a little closer to the computer? I think some people are having trouble hearing. Okay. Too close. I have to find the middle way. Too far away. Yeah, definitely. This is not my usual computer. I'm in this hotel room. So anyway, it is what it is. All right.
I am on the same theme as everybody else I was in the three day class. Okay. Um, what an experience that I've had since then. The Sunday night I had I go to bed doing the home Amitabha free and asking to go to the pure lands. And actually, I think the first night asked to see the pure lands and what happened was I saw like a picture frame or a big window. And through that I saw the pure lands but I was about 50 feet away. I was not in it was a very interesting experience because it's so contrasted with the space around it. It was as if I was looking looking through a window.
So when did that kind of for just a second so So where were you in that you had this experience with? Is it when you were sleeping or Yes. Okay,
sleeping and then the then Monday night, we had the meditation class, or Joe tie, which I love with Jeffrey Stevens. And the whole time he was talking and he didn't lead a meditation. But by the end, I felt like I just shifted enough that I went into that experience where everything turned into light, you know, even though he was talking and everybody else was talking and everything was happening. I was I just felt like oh, this is this is the waking state of being in that place. And it lasted a much longer time than I get to have at last and dreams usually. Hello. You know why? It was really lovely. And then that night I had a dream again, where I asked for pure lands. Yeah, yeah. And I wasn't lucid, but I was walking on the mountain side with Amitabha. And I knew it was him. And there wasn't anybody else around and all there was was this vast, endless space in this hillside we were mountainside we were working on. It just I just woke up so, so happy so so it didn't matter. It wasn't a lucid dream. It was just really precious. So I just wanted to express this to you because it just feels like wow, I didn't really know it while I was in the class. How how much things had, you know that that a real shift was taking place because you know, and to thank you and Debbie, I have an aura ring and the same thing happens to me It thinks I'm sleeping when I'm meditating. And I think it's reading our heart rates and so our heart rate goes way down. And it thinks we're sleeping. Yeah. I am also awake in the middle of the night for hours and have been for years. And so that's when I get to meditate. These experiences. I love that time. So I feel very at home with everybody and part of the experience with Jeffrey in that class was seeing the light but also the sense that everybody in the class were different parts of me. Like people came on and asked questions and I knew they were expressing a part of me that I did not have to embody that allowed me to be in the state I was in so everybody that expressed that was like oh yeah, I've been there that's a part of me. That's a part of me. That's a part of me. And and then expressing it or feeling it allowed me to be in this other space. It was it was quite a lovely experience. And I just wanted to appreciate you for all of it.
I really love this like today's like the experience session. This is great. I love hearing these sorts of things, and especially coming out of like a program that we did because again, it's like when we when we start to drop our barriers, we start to lower our guard. We really make ourselves more available to these vast wonders of the mind and reality and it's much more immediate and available than we think we we are the ones that drop these veils in front of our eyes constantly. We just have to open relax. And when we have this kind of group mind, this kind of connective tissue of the group and this kind of group consciousness that takes place. The fact that we can actually do this in cyberspace, right, we're not even in the same room together. Also was really, really cool. You know, it kind of talks about the dimensionless quality of where we're going when we explore these sorts of things. And so I was I can say it's just fantastic. I mean, everything is just really, really great. And like with everything else, these are wonderful things we celebrate them. But also like when Debbie's and other experiences. We just simply release them and let them go. And we were like, Oh, that's cool. It's kind of a pointing out. There's Oh, that's cool. That's really interesting. And then we just continue to celebrate, but then really celebrate but then release. So I'm not sure what else to say
I mean, nothing. I really wanted to thank you and actually thanks the whole crew because it feels like a group experience. It makes, you know, raises the tide so to speak, that allows, you know, experience I wouldn't have on my own.
Exactly. And so if I mean again, I was paying like references for people who want to learn more Cousteau rubbish. He's the guy who did the LSD interview with he's coming back. But he wrote a book I just finished reading called the living classroom, which really talks about this sort of thing, the kind of collective group mind that emerges. In situations like this. So if you want to learn a little bit more about this sort of thing. His book is worth looking at, you know, it just will just give you a little bit more like oh, okay, I can see how that.
That's great. I used to lead groups, and this was a big part of my lead and was how the group would change everything,
isn't it, so it makes it so rewarding. Thanks for sharing. I really appreciate it.
Thank you very much. Thank you.
All right. We'll get you unmuted Glenn. Hey, Brian, how are you my friend?
Oh, pretty good. I just wanted to pass by you something, a change that's been happening in my dreaming and it seems to have been for the last two months. A real focus on sort of like lucidity in dreaming has gone away and instead and it sort of began to happen last year when I woke up in the middle of the night. And I would say okay, I should just sit down and do open awareness meditation. And so it started around then and it keeps going on that a lot of my focus is now because I record my dreams on a on a phone thing. So I remember things that on that, that I wouldn't necessarily remember when I'm awake. Yeah, everything now seems to happen at the end just before I'm waking up. And, and so it's in liminal. It's sometimes liminal. hypnagogic if I'm going back to sleep and in 15 minutes, Oracle liminal public stuff, and there'll be these things where I know I'm aware, but to me, this is not lucid. What I am seeing, but I so I'm having a lucid I mean, I'm having an aware of non lucid three. Or in a lot of cases, I'm aware that I'm thinking but I'm realizing my thinking is scoping out a whole dream. Yep. Then when I go to what my dream objective was, which largely is to lucidly dream in order to understand what the emergent rules in a dream are, and play with them. I realized when I look back at my notes in these liminal things that that was actually what I was doing, although I didn't understand it at the time. And I'm just I guess what I should do is just accept this. Yes, I'm focusing in on this part that is probably important for me to Oh, and this also comes after about a whole bunch of samsaric dream big, long samsaric dreams that you know, I would write down later though, I wouldn't necessarily remember them otherwise.
Right? Yeah, yeah. So bunch of things there. I mean, really cool stuff. So like, like with you, the more interesting compelling things tend to happen just before I wake up, I think there's some exclamation point that takes place that way, because when it happens that way, you tend to remember them more. They have more impact. So I would say, I don't know 80% of I had to guess of the really impactful dream experiences I've had tend to occur, like right around there, because then when I wake up, it's like, oh, geez, there it was. And I can remember it very, very clearly, versus something happening in the middle of the night. And the other thing that comes to mind Glenn is is all the somewhat connected to the other comments is there's so many collateral benefits when we do this sort of thing. That when we're working with these nocturnal practices, yes, we have certain targeted so called objectives attain was set at the end the dream work with the stages of Dream Yoga attain lucidity and the dream was they fantastic stuff. But there's all these other things that happen which one of which is just this more sensitive, heightened awareness to the way the mind displays itself throughout the entire night irrespective of particular classifications of experiences. Related to Dream Yoga, or sleep yoga, right. And so this is this is very often the way it works for me. I may not have an overt lucid dream one night, but there's a quality of liminal awareness and acidity takes place you know, relatively constantly and I'm just simply more aware of all the different manifestations, the different play that my mind takes in the natural rain that I never had before. And so this is why I never really get wigged out at all. If I don't have a lucid dream if I'm in a drought period for a while, doesn't wake me out in the slightest, because there's still all this other stuff kind of happening. And so I think that's the most important thing from what I'm hearing from you is just recognizing the kind of just the scope of what these practices are all about that you can really expand them to include virtually everything that happens when you're working with the subtle dimensions both on and off the cushion. And so I mean, that's what comes to mind around that it just it just celebrating the the display of your mind under any circumstance and then just the utter delight and then the constancy. You know, you just you just keep going and then you'll have a hybrid lucid dream. Nothing will happen for a while just like the stock market you know, it just goes up and then it crashes goes up and then it's levels it's all over the damn place and so maybe one of the take home messages connected also to Debbie's and others. Today is just this quality of of equanimity receptivity to whatever arises, you know, I don't I don't mind what happens I'm open to whatever arises and then you'll find that this quality of awareness that it just just continues to continues to grow. You're more aware, more aware, more aware, until fundamentally you're aware all the time. So something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Always nice to see you're going to take care of my friend. Okay, Jerry, one more and then I do have to run so this is perfect timing. Far away Jerry.
This is a very factual Can you hear me I can. Okay. This is a very factual question about things that you have mentioned in previous talk sessions. And, you know, you said you did this five year retreat in Nova Scotia. And you said, you know, various ways There were eight men and eight women in the retreat, you took your last talk session, you'd made you said two sentences very briefly, and then went on and you said when you finish the retreat, there were like, three or four men or three or four women
or we lost half we'd lost about 50%. Yeah.
What how, what happens if I they leave or
they all went insane? Just kidding. Just kidding. I couldn't resist, right? I couldn't resist, you know, for a number of there were a couple real life situations where were people there were there was a couple so that's two people. They have a daughter who was going through some really heavy stuff. They have to leave to take care of her. Two or three situations like that. Where just the real world came crashing in so to speak, and many others there were a couple people that I don't want to say too much because it's not my purview to really comment but there are a couple of people that are honestly should probably should not have been there. And then it self selects at a certain point. is like, Hey, this is not for me kind of thing. So between those two, you're good listener. Yeah, we started with eight. And then we ended up with I think, eight. Yeah, yeah, actually, we have five rooms 123458 916 Yeah. And then yeah, then the attrition was close to 50%. And so that's not uncommon for these sorts of things. Honestly, it's not unusual.
Oh, that sounds very reasonable. You know. I find, you know, difficult put my mind around. You'd have 16 people who just you know, take five years out of their life like that. So I find what you're saying is a very, very, you know, practical and understandable.
Not an easy thing to do, right?
Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks a lot, Andrew. Yeah,
thanks, Jerry. So thank you, everybody. Hey, it's nice. Let me just put on the gallery thing. And it's always nice to wave to everybody all my friends and enemies. It's so nice to see everybody. usual thing next week. I think I'm covering Monday. I'm not entirely sure I have to look my schedule. But otherwise, we're kind of back on track when I get in town. Sorry. You have to cut it a little bit short today. But that's the way it rolls. So nice to see everybody will dedicate it speaks to dedicate the merit to all beings, especially the poor people in Ukraine and Russia. Keep them in our minds and hearts as they're going through some pretty challenging times. But otherwise, thanks. Alyssa. So nice to see everybody will stay in touch and I will see you in the dream world or elsewhere. Ciao, ciao.
