240820-1030_ Orbit 101 by David Garcia, Arbitrum Foundation & Vishnu, Offchain Labs
2:32PM Aug 20, 2024
Speakers:
IronBoots, Camelot
DisruptionJoe
Raam At Arbitrum
Max Lomu, Everclear
David Garcia, Arbitrum Foundation
Vishnu Kumar, OCL
Darren Mims, Blockworks Research
Keywords:
orbit
chains
dao
ecosystem
working
folks
team
stack
question
support
liquidity
super
call
infrastructure
totally
foundation
ethereum
narrative
darren
blockchain
GM, GM, hey, Klaus, Long time, no see,
Yeah, good to be here. Hi everyone. Good to see some familiar faces and meet some new folks. Hope everyone is doing well.
Let's wait a couple more minutes, And then we can start perfect i
All right, I think looks like the rate of people joining this call has been decreasing. So we can go ahead. I'll share my screen. Apologies, and I'm just sharing. I just have one screen in front of me, so I'll have to.
Cool, yeah. So thanks everyone for coming. It's a pleasure to be here and have some discussion with you all on orbit chains. So from off chain labs, we have Vishnu here. Do you mind introducing yourself? Vishnu? Happy
to Hey folks. I'm Vishnu from off chain labs. I lead orbit strategy and go to market there, so work super closely with the product team on helping ship out orbit updates and help bring in new folks into the ecosystem.
Thank you. And then it's me, David from the arbitrum Foundation. Oh, by the way, I'm going to be recording this indeed. Thanks for the reminder.
Let me see
if that works.
So if anyone isn't comfortable with being recorded, feel free to have cameras off of course. Thank you, RAM for the drill. Okay,
I'll start this.
Awesome, cool? So yeah, then, from my side, it's me Arbitron foundation. I'm a program manager focused on orbit growth, working a lot with visiono and the off chain labs team, but also working with some of the orbit chains in the ecosystem the so the main reason why we're having this call today is because there's been a lot of chatter around how the DAO could support arbitrum orbits among the DAO contributors. And so we just want to have this is more of a discussion between all of us, so that we can set some some key points, and we have the same understanding about where we are at and some of the areas where the DAO could potentially contribute. So the so going through the objectives of the call. So first we I'm just going to briefly introduce orbit chains. Second point is we're going to go through some initiatives that we are currently conducting. We together foundation and offline labs. This is a public call, so we will just focus on the ones that have more visibility and the ones that are ongoing. And then the third point, which to me is one of the most important ones, is that we just have some discussion here between you, bijnua and myself, around what the DAO, what the DAO contributors can do to support orbit chains. So before we start, I just want to remind the relationship principles between the parties here. So the arbitrum Dao is responsible for making decisions the arbitrum Foundation, we are just neutral stewards, which means that we provide operational support to the decisions that the arbitrum Dao has, does and decides, and then off chain Labs is a service provider to the arbitrum Foundation, and the foundation and off chain labs work together on a lot of fronts, like technical upgrades, partnerships and marketing. So quickly going through what orbit is. So until arbitrum orbit, the teams had the opportunity to interact with arbitrum By building applications on top of the arbitrum public chains. One, ANOVA with arbitrum. One, now teams have the opportunity to take this specific part of the code and build their own blockchain with their own branding and their own name. And so you can think of arbitrum, one code was optimized to be Ethereum compatible, but orbits don't need to be right and then or freely adjust their codes to their project needs, and so that that's essentially what arbitrum orbit is. So then orbit has evolved its horizons through time. So in March of last year, what teams could permissionlessly only deploy l3 chains on top of arbitrum one and arbitrum Nova. For anything else, those teams needed to go to the DAO and needed to make their case as to why the DAO had to approve such layer twos or other layer threes deployed on top of other chains that are not arbitrum public chains. And so that changed over time, because there was a need, or there was a general desire for efficiency. And so January this year, there was the so called arbitrum expansion program announced. So in January, then the DAO voted in favor of having layer twos and layer threes on chains being deployed for permissionlessly on top of Ethereum. Layer twos basically any chain deriving its security from Ethereum. And then it's been this month that the Dao has approved to expand the Ethereum model with the Ethereum virtual machine across any layer one and layer two. And so this is one of the projects that we are working on at the moment, which is implementing those changes on the licensing then, for for any chain that's not deploying on top of arbitrum one or arbitrum Nova, there's a licensing fee, and so the 10% of the net revenue will have to be contributed towards the arbitrum Dao, 8% will go to the to the directly to the DAO Treasury, and 2% will be to will go to a developer guild that's currently being on the works by the arbitrum Foundation. And then the goal of the developer guild is to share those funds across core contributors of and reward the core contributors of arbitrum. So in terms of the status of the ecosystem, there's been huge success so far. We have over 60 orbit chains that have been publicly announced. We have over 100 orbit chains that we know they are in development. And most of these orbit chains, and that's what we currently recommend, is to use a roll up as a service, such as Caldera, conduit, layer, gelato, Alchemy, and even few more. And so these players, what they do is they support orbit chains, maintaining the the arbitrum code base, and they help these teams in in upgrading this code. And they also host the notes on behalf of the orbit chain operators. So, so there's few reasons today why we've had so much success. And this goes beyond just the arbitrum ecosystem. There's few reasons why a team would want to also build a chain. And so those reasons are I'm gonna lay some, but I'm sure there's even more. So you have sufficient, sufficient capacity to scale well, you get that by having your own up chain. You want to have control over the gas prices, as we all know in Ethereum, and to a lesser extent, in arbitrum, one gas price depend is a is a variable that depends on demand. And so on arbitrum One there's hundreds of builders and 1000s of users every day. And so there's a competition, or not a competition, but there's just, like, gas prices a function of demand. Then the third point is control over the UX. So again, for instance, here you can apply account abstraction at the chain layer, the fourth point, the fifth control over value accrual. For instance, you can set up what's your the gas stoke of the chain. You have control over the late latency and speed of your chain. We know that the block time of arbitrum is the lowest across blockchains with 250 milliseconds. But with orbit, you can bring these down to 100 milliseconds, which is really a web to experience. And then last but not least, you also have control over the available intra by the way, if anyone has a question, I cannot see if someone is raising its hands, so please, just like unmute yourself and ask. So I'm just going to give now the floor to Vishnu, who's going to walk through the how we see orbit chains, the vision and the areas of effort that we are currently doing at the foundation and off chain labs. Thanks
David, happy to dive into the orbit end game. So the goal here is, at least the way we are thinking about OCL, is we see roll ups as the new server. And these new servers, which are app chains, are the new way to onboard the next billion people who will actually start using crypto apps daily. The problem with, you know, David jumped into a lot of the issues with just using general purpose roll ups competing for block space, not able to customize for your use case, and we're shipping against a vision of having blockchains as the back ends for applications with real world use cases. So having your own chain really allows these apps to be as performant as web two applications, while still leveraging the underlying value propositions that blockchain tech bring to the table. You know, trustlessness, permissionlessness, interoperability, all of the values that we stand for here in the space. But we're able to take all those amazing value propositions and benefits that we get from the blockchain tech, but abstract away all the annoying parts that folks don't like, like UX issues are the big ones. Wallets and gas are some of the big issues that folks deal with when it comes to onboarding. So by having your own app chain, you can customize it to suit your users and give them the best, most performant experience possible. We're starting to see a lot of folks, a lot of projects build this way, both in defi and consumer so it's really exciting to be working on this. Moving to the next one. What do we consider success? I think there's, there's a few different pieces to this, the first one and first and foremost, it's winning the hearts and minds of builders. And I think this is where the DAO can help a lot at OCL, we are a pretty relatively small team, and the Dao has a much larger surface area and much larger scope of influence. So somewhere where we really love your support. Really just winning the hearts and minds of builders and the downstream, you know, business, the business goal there is to win the market share in the roll up stack. So out of all the other app chain stacks, whether that's, you know, Zk, sync, hyper chains or polygon, CDK or op stack. We want arbitrum orbit to kind of be the biggest slice of that pie, and then moving on, we really would love more growth in the orbit ecosystem. Just, you know, the more growth, the better, more chains, more infrastructure supporting orbit chains, and more applications building on the chains themselves. So it's like, you know, chains kind of is at the bottom layer, infrastructure is on top, and then applications at the top layer. So that's we're looking at all three stacks. I focus most on the orbit, chains and infrastructure. But also, you know, super eager to start seeing more applications proliferate on top of orbit chains and shout out to shout out to to Iron Boots, who's here, who has been doing a lot of work on this. So another thing is building sustainable structures around orbit, and so by having these structures, it'll allow us to have the tooling, the programs, the campaigns, and, most importantly, the communities, that will allow the ecosystem to reach inevitable success. I think if we focus on these inputs, the outputs will handle themselves.
So So across
the David, a quick question,
elaborate on the sustainable structures around like, you know, I see tooling, programs, campaigns, communities, which of those, like four things is the hardest for OCL to implement and maybe easiest for the DAO to do.
Totally
control.
Great question, Joe and great to see you here. I think community. I think communities and campaigns are probably the thing that the Dao has the most. I guess, I guess strength in compared to OCL. You know, campaigns like we had, you know, the arbitrum, arbitrum Odyssey, activations like that would be super valuable to activate the ecosystem. And then communities is somewhere where we at OCL aren't really able to focus. So, you know, whether that's regen, communities building on orbit, whether that's, you know, defi D Gen communities sharing alpha, whether that's you know, applications that are building on top of orbit, that are attracting artists and creatives. I think that is where the Dao has the most influence, and where the ostl has the least, the least like ability to execute. So I think, I think campaigns and communities would be an awesome place for the DAO to focus. But I do think that, I do think that all of them would be valuable for the DAO to contribute to. And Alex has a question that says, Does OCL have any metrics about how the market share goal is going? No, not quite yet. We have, you know, kind of been approximating this by looking at how to be roll up to the WTF and all the other resources out there. But we're still, still don't have, like, a final source of truth for the metrics, which is something that is simply definitely top of mind
for us. So there's some, I mean, we do have some metrics that are provided by L to beat across how many of these chains are occurred. Are using the the orbit technology versus other layer two technologies. But yeah, we are working on that. And I think also the next slide, which I'm gonna go through also can have also sort of like touches, based on Joe's question. So, so how do we achieve that success? And the goals that we have of winning market share, we measure that across three areas. So the first one is attracting teams to using the orbit technology. The second one is supporting those orbits grow in terms of builders, and then the third one is attracting users to these orbits. This is what we care about. If we win on these three areas, then we are successful. And so across those areas we are doing, there's few series of activities that we've been doing. So for instance, attracting teams onto orbit. There's a digital team doing a lot of PD, proactive PD. On the foundation side, there's funding. We are like negotiating grants agreements with new orbit chains. There's also marketing involved. We are starting to look into debrell with the new hires on this front, then growing the supporting orbit chain operators. We do have the foundation, an infrastructure, a small infrastructure budget for basically supporting key in crop projects that we think will add value and will, in the end, lead to grow. So we will share two of these projects here with you later. But besides that, we also do a lot of success support, the typical partnerships, introductions to other teams, product type of support, engineering support, and where I also see specifically the DAO being well positioned is on the last piece, which is, How do we attract users to orbit with some initiatives. You guys have been doing a lot of the incentive programs. Some people might be a bit less supportive to those programs, but you guys are getting a very valuable insight, and you are becoming the experts on how to con how to do those initiatives. And definitely, I think those initiatives are needed in the ecosystem. So, yeah, so Vishnu, that's that's on you again, perfect. So
just diving from a high level of some of our key areas of effort. And of course, you know, if any you guys want to dive deep on this and really just want to pick into any of these pieces, I'm going to drop my telegram here, just so you have it. Feel free to ping me, and I'm happy to just go deep into any of these. But for this high level presentation, some of our key areas of efforts are, at OCL, are and across the across the ecosystem, I guess our number one making product and feature updates to orbit chains, that's a big part of what we focus on, OCL. Some of that includes interop for chains. So you know, for all you folks that are worried about interop road maps coming out, that's something we're definitely thinking about we're also working on orbit chain operator, app developer and user UX upgrades, which is some of the features that are coming out play to this, things like Flash withdrawals, things like USDC support, native USDC support. On orbit chains, these kind of things that are quality of life improvements, that may not be the most flashy, but eventually, you know, all these little upgrades compound into a much better user experience compared to other app chain stacks. And another key area of effort is, of course, something that I focus on specifically, is thesis focus BD to attract key orbit chain operators. So I you know, lead orbit BD at OCL. So if you folks ever have an opportunity for me or anyone interested in an orbit chain, please, you know, send them to me on telegram. Happy to work closely with you folks to bring chain operators into the ecosystem. Another area of effort is success and technical support to existing orbit chains. So folks on the OCL team, like when 0x when moon and chase Allred, focus on this specifically where, you know, we make sure that all the the chains that are using the orbit stack have, you know, intros. They have interest to infrastructure partners. They have, you know, they're able to meet liquidity providers. Basically, they're able to have all the pieces, both on the social side and the ecosystem side, plus the technical side. So that's, you know, getting help with their chain implementation from our PMS or integration engineers and stuff like that. So both on the ecosystem side and on the technical side, we do a lot of the support after folks have joined the ecosystem. So it's not just like a, you know, come, come join the ecosystem and then you kind of on your own. We sort of support people through their chain growth. And then another piece is adding infrastructure that orbit chains can leverage. So we're going to touch on this a bit later. David's going to dive into specific infrastructure pieces we've been working on. But generally, you know, chains kind of need all the same things, dexes, they need oracles. They need, you know, bridges, then explorers. So all these, all these sort of key infrastructure pieces are things that we support chains to get so that way, once they have these pieces, they can start developing they can start developing apps and bringing on users. And then the last piece, which like I mentioned, David will touch a bit bit more on, is conducting priority infrastructure enablement projects.
Thank you. Vishnu, so yeah. So the first project, which is something that's been ongoing now for few weeks, we experienced that orbit data wasn't accessible. It wasn't accessible internally at the foundation at OCL, also at the ecosystem level. So so we we've been talking with data providers about how to make that data available, not just for us, but also for the ecosystem, and we are right now at the contracting stage with the provider. So the goal here is that they will provide index data to us, and then we will be able to use these data, obviously, internally. We will share it with the off chain labs team. We can share it with any Dao led program as well, but also externally. So we can share these data with the chain operators themselves, the rasas and third party data analytics platforms you guys have seen are most likely voted for the grow the PI proposal that was recently posted on a snapshot. So those are one of the use cases that the data we aim to use the data for and so explaining what we want to do with these data is four things, but there's, I'm sure there's going to be more use cases popping up in the future. So first of all, we want to start calculating what's the licensing contribution for these specific subset of orbit sayings that need to pay the 10% net revenue contribution to the Dao. We want to also estimate what's the actual orbit Dao contribution across all orbit chains. So different orbit chains have different impact onto the arbitrum ecosystem. Let's say someone like Zai, who's a layer three on top of arbitrum one. They don't have to pay the 10% licensing fee, but they do have to batch post their blocks onto onto the parent chain, and they also their token is most likely also being actively traded on arbitrum One. And so that contributes to what to the arbitrum Dao in terms of, like, revenue fees. So we want to harmonize that and estimate what's the actual contribution that these are the chains have to to the Dao. The third point here is we want to start sharing this data with data analytic platforms. An example, if the proposal would have passed, would have been grow the pie, but that really means any team in the ecosystem who might need index data, we can actually distribute that through like our index data platform and so. So here, the goal, in the end, is to help orbits be visible and to ultimately lead through these orbits growth. And then we've also, it's been few weeks, but we also talk with the boost team around orbit incentives. And so this data is also meant for for setting up some incentive programs. There might be some limitations to what these data can come provide to but I think we're confident that we work with the indexing provider and we work with whoever is organizing those incentive programs. We can use these data for for distributing incentives.
Cool, I'll quickly talk on some of the specific product improvements we're working on for orbit. And then I want to make sure I know we're at the hour we've got a few minutes left, so I want to make sure that we have time at the end to chat through, ask for the DAO and any discussions and questions that you guys might have. But the first thing I'll touch on is fast withdrawals, which is one of our initiatives. We have OCL on the product side that's all about improving interoperability. So fast withdrawals is basically a new feature that allows orbit chains to achieve fast finality. So basically the way it works is that transactions with a unanimous vote across the validator committee will have their state transition confirmed. This works best for any trust chains that already have a data availability committee so they already have a minimum trust assumption with the DAC. It can be used for any orbit chains. It's just not something that we'd recommend, because it increases the press assumptions, but it is possible. So what does this allow? It allows for, like I said, you know, faster finality, which allows for faster withdrawal frequency, so you can withdraw from your orbit chain anytime up to 15 minutes, so the withdrawals are confirmed on the parent chain with any frequency up to 15 minutes. And then that allows for enhanced cross chain communication, because these cross chain apps can read the finalized state up to every 15 minutes, and it really unlocks a lot of cool downstream use cases. One big one is bridging. So third party bridges, there's actually like a 400x decrease in the amount of liquidity that they need to hold, because instead of holding liquidity for seven days, they need to hold liquidity for a much shorter period of time, which could be up to 15 minutes, moving on to a couple more product features, a couple a couple other projects I'll touch on right now are chain clusters. So that's kind of our interoperability, interoperability, sort of end game. It's an opt in Super chain, basically where different orbit chains can essentially choose to essentially dock in together and then have essentially pretty instantaneous bridging experience and have cross chain transactions that way with folks that are within the same chain cluster as you. So that is an approach that allows you to have sovereignty while still retaining customizations and maintaining the security and integrity of your chain. Another cool one that people are super hyped about. A lot of projects I've been talking to are very, very bullish on this. It's called stylus. It's essentially bringing rust on arbitrum, massive unlocked because it allows smart contracts to be written in rust. It has so you you can have like a wasm compiler and an EVM compiler sit side by side and essentially have solidity contracts and rust contracts call each other and interoperate, which is massive, and eventually we can even expand the ecosystem by having, you know, Solana projects that are written rust come poured over to arbitrum. So really exciting, and also allows folks, allows teams to have access to much more talent. I think there's something in like the five there's like five figures worth of silly developers. So it's a really, you know, tight market versus there's a ton millions and millions of rust developers. So it allows more folks to become blockchain devs, and grows the pie. Overall, bold is another piece permissionless validation. This allows anyone to validate an arbitrum Nitro chain. Super exciting. So allows people to decentralize. It allows a change to decentralize, and allows folks that are stakeholders to be able to validate transactions and presumably be rewarded for that. And then the last piece is time boost. It's a way to democratize MeV. So instead of having like the first come, first serve. Way that MB is done right now, it replaces that model with the sealed bid auction. So it's a way to improve the UX of folks who are, you know, might be getting sandwich attacks otherwise. So that brings me to the last bit, which David can touch on some of the challenges that the DAO could tackle. And, yeah, let's, let's spend some some good time here. And would love input from folks in the co op. Yeah.
Thanks. Vishnu, yeah. So, I mean, we've put these are some challenges that we think the DAO, when its contributors, could tackle, that doesn't mean there's there's more we welcome. And every, every contribution you think you guys might, might bring to the table, we want to support you. So the first one is community building. I think we really have to make sure we are building What's this? Arbitrum, orbit tribe. We want you to amplify to ship post to make think, you know, thought leadership type of threats. We want you to continue amplifying the orbit content on social media. We want you to recommend arbitrum orbit to builders and so if you have and if and please be, feel free to actually introduce any team, to introduce any any team building on a Norbi chain, or any potential team who wants to build an orbit chain, to bejnu or to myself like Vishnu, actually put there his telegram name. But also feel free to reach out to any of us, even like any of the foundation folks. I think this is one of the areas that we definitely need support. The folks at the foundation and off chain. We are a small crew, so we are trying to do our best as well on social media. The one question I would have here for, for this is, what can we do to enable you to to do those actions? So, so think about it. I think we can discuss later. Sorry,
another quick question. Oh, yeah, go
ahead. Actually, it's kind of long. So I like, I Okay, you guys can show it to them.
Cool, yeah, so there's gonna be after this slide. There's just Q and A, so we can have some discussions. I'm also able to stay more time than just these last eight minutes that we have on the call, so no worries for that. So the second piece is incentives. So if we are imagining a wall where, you know, like, roll ups are like servers, so it's a wall where there's going to be, like, hundreds and 1000s of roll ups available, we we won't be able to foundation on, off chain to, or, let's say, we won't be able, at the foundation to to be distributed, to talk to each of these teams and and basically agree on, like, some deals with these specific teams. So I do think there's value from having the DAO supporting with, like, some predictable system that rewards builders that choose to build on top of orbit chains. It needs to be something that metrics track back to, you know, ecosystem growth goals, and in the end, they link to the arbitrum Dao treasury. But I do think this is a huge area of potential unlock that that the DAO could tackle. And then the third point is on the infrastructure piece, we definitely need your help on onboarding more infrastructure to support orbit chains. Nearly all orbit chains require the same common infrastructure. There's, there's two different groups. So for the more popular and use or be changed, this will require more professional infrastructure service providers to assist that. There's a focus on low latency, high throughput, but then also for all the others, we think that there should be a focus on open source software that can be run by anyone there for making it also cheaper for those orbit chain operators to to be anyone so that the orbit chain operators don't need to be teams that have large amounts of capital in their war chest. So yeah. Bishnu, do you want to add something on this?
No, I think that's that's basically it for the most part. It seems like there's a bunch of good questions in the chat. So happy to dive into those and move into Q A,
we'd love to Whoa. Okay, how do we go? I think Darren was first, right? Yeah,
let's go ahead and do Darren. And looks like Alex has some and then max, and then we can just keep, keep pushing.
Yeah. So this is kind of a long question, so I'll try to, I'll try to be as brief as possible. So I've been seeing other interoperability solutions and other l twos, most notably the one I've been looking as ag layer for polygon. And, you know, of course, this is a, this is, in a way, apples to oranges, because it's a ZK ecosystem, right? But with the polygon, like ag layer Interoperability solution, there seems to be, like some there seems to be a relayer network, right? And there is, like, relayer extractable value from that network that is essentially owned by the or not. All the details are out there, but if I were to like wage, a guess it is that relayer extractable value is essentially owned by the polygon community, or the polygon Dao, right? And I was wondering if there is that same, like, if there's that same, I guess, like option for arbitrum when it or as it pursues an interoperability solution between all of its orbit change chains and at the same time. Or there's a, there's a second portion to this question. I can't remember anymore, so I'll just start with that. So far.
Cool. Now, great question, really good question. To be honest, I'm not totally sure I can follow up. Darren, if you drop your telegram, I'm happy to get an answer from the research team and share that along. I assume that there will be some sort of relayer incentives, but I don't want to give you bad information,
right? And the other question I have, or I still can't remember the other portion to the relayer question, but the other question I had about was the liquidity provision for the orbit chance, is there a way where the DAO could, like, provide or help or aid in providing liquidity to those chains, or, I guess, maybe to the highest performance chains, or in terms of like or user metrics, etc,
yeah, totally. I think that's definitely like a, like a viable strategy in terms of chain growth. I think, I think having some sort of, maybe liquidity liquid, like liquidity provisioning capital put away by the Dow could be a great way to stimulate the growth of some of these chains. I think, I think, I think, you know, we're open to any and on all solutions. So it does sound, does sound like, like, a great part of like, a balanced strategy, I guess,
yeah. And to add to that, in the end, you are the DAO, right? So, so here we are just operationally supporting you on your decisions. I do think, personally, it would be interesting to see how that it's using its treasury or to actually enable some of these needs. For instance, there might be some of these bridges that have liquidity needs. So would it be that our player that can actually, like provide that liquidity and get the benefit as well from providing that liquidity, right? So it's not just giving a brand, it's actually like be using those protocols and helping the whole ecosystem as well. Also, like some thoughts is around, how can, how can you use, or how can the RP, the DAO use, essentially, their treasury, their existing treasury, with, you know, in terms of, like, giving utility to its existing Treasury through the orbit chains. So there's a lot of, I mean, we obviously have eth as the the guy the main, the gas custom token, but considering the arbitrum Treasury, you could also be thinking how you can enable utility for other tokens. Yeah, totally,
there's not just sorry, go ahead.
Karen, yeah, just one more thing. So a side note to add to that is, I would wonder if the recent proposal for arbitrum staking could play into that long term in some sort of sense. I know that that's very far out, and you know, there's still a lot of regulatory uncertainty there, but you know, if delegates are staking ARB, maybe that ARB could could be provided as liquidity in some manner. Not sure. This is all very, of course, theoretical, just like throwing things at the wall. But, yeah,
yeah, great idea. Yeah, great idea. Okay, awesome. Thanks. Darren, Alex has a question. Does OCL have a theory on the business model, and does it have a theory on the North Star? So two part question here for a is it more like open Core Model, Linux slash Red Hat. If so, are there service providers that would accrue the value? Great question. Or is it transaction costs? If there's transaction those seem to be decreasing a lot. Yes, very fair. It is the transaction model, not the Linux model. Essentially, the way it works is that if you're deploying on arbitrum, one that is totally free, there's no cost there. And then the value accrual to arbitrum would be increased. Transaction on arbitrum, one which would then, of course, you know, benefit the Dao. If it's transactions, those seem to be decreasing a lot. Totally agree, that's something that we're thinking about here as well. Perhaps the AAP is not the long term landing solution in terms of the monetization strategy, we're still figuring that that piece out. So honestly, Alex would love to jam here. If you have thoughts, we David and I specifically are thinking about, Okay, are there potential future iterations of the AEP that would more more effectively, be able to, you know, drive value back to the Dao. That's kind of the thinking, but, but it's still super high level. So welcome any suggestions or conversation discussions here. Let's see what else we got. Yeah, North Star. It. Oh, sorry, go ahead. David,
yeah, just to add to this, to be able to we now have available data to benchmark, right? So that's why it's so important the project that we are doing where we're going to get the index data, because from that, we are able to basically analyze a lot of these points also in terms of growth, right you and that's like another question of yours, which is around incentives and the metrics that track back to the ecosystem growth goals. So I think that, based on the data that we have, we are going to be able to be tracking how much of this contribution, let's say, how much those orbits actually contribute to the arbitrum. Now, in terms of transaction volumes, in terms of, I think that the key metric here, the one that unifies across all orbit chains, is the actual like, you know, like Treasury fee that gets sent out to the arbitrum Dao. It's not going to be a pure calculation. It might require some estimations, but I think that we can reach out to a pretty good estimation to to estimate what those growth goals are. On, like, how do we, you know, benchmark orbits across the board?
Yep, and then the address, number B, or Section B of the question, which is, does, is there a theory on the North Star goals? It's so, so it's, it's, it's number of orbit chains building and developers building. But I think that the current North Star goal is to sort of cement arbitrum orbit as deleting app chain stack. I think there's a lot of app chain stacks right now. We're going to see consolidation in that market. Arbitrum orbit has the best lead, and like we have the best features, we have the best support. So our goal is to make sure that like we are winning out when it comes to app change generally, or just like roll up stacks. So that's why we're looking at it from a market share perspective, versus just absolute value of chains or absolute number of chains, because we see like the chains are going to go up. But I think the key is to make sure that we like, out of all the chains that are being developed, we are winning the majority of those. And the reason being is, you know, there's ton of fluctuation in the market. There's narratives, you know, we had an explosion of app chains and roll ups, you know, in the past six months, and then now we're seeing a little bit slow down. We'll probably see another uptick. So that's kind of how we're thinking about it. The share of the of the different stacks should be the highest in orbit. I think, I think, yeah, Max had a question.
Yes. Yes. Hey guys, yeah, more than a question, like a series of thoughts that I wanted to share in a sort of brainstorming session. Yes. First of all, thanks for the call. I am a big fan of the orbit stack. I truly think that if the orbit stack wins, then arbitrum can succeed as a whole ecosystem. And so obviously, I've been I've been looking at the development of the stack, a proliferation of the different layer tools with a bias perspective, because I work at Everclear, which is used to be a bridge. Now we're working as a liquidity backbone for different bridges. But I'm sorry, short the the way that I see the two major stocks that are used today in the market, which is the orbit stack and op stack, which with the others, as you can see in qual and here, the one from Polygon, a little bit far behind. The major difference is that what the urban orbit chains look like today. They look very isolated from each other. It doesn't feel there is a very cohesive movement or vision that tie them all together, so that they are also seen as a unique, as a movement, as a as a very as a powerful force as moving all together is trying to work all together. If you compare that with all the messages that come from base, you know, from mode, they all come in at all. We are part of the super chain. We are part of this, no bigger thing together. So this is where I feel that the tech stock that is, you know, incredibly so much better from a technical perspective on arbitrum. You know, the fast analysis was mentioned in the full proof. We just saw the obvious stack just reverting. You heard the work that they've done, but it's really missing these high level perspective movement, like kind of cohesive actions totally can feel that as a unique ecosystem, right? So I think that comes down to two pieces in my head, but I'm a lot to open for discussion on how we can improve as a Dao. One is, yes, the technical part, interoperability, as you guys were saying, this is something that I think the market is solving we had ever clear, as soon as we launch our upgrade, we'll try to do our best to make arbitrum One of the central hubs for liquidity, and that will enable fast bridging back and forth from the different chains, but also this idea of the social level, right? How do you, how do you bring all these chains together and pushing the same narrative together, and, you know, making sure that if some one of them is able to onboard users, those users spread to the whole ecosystems, right? The liquidity is also useful for everybody, this kind of things, right? It doesn't have to be as political as the Super Chinese. I think that they led into very they're leaning into very bureaucratic and political thing. I like arbitrum as a more freedom economic kind of style. But I feel the gap is very strong, is very wide at the moment, and we're as a Dao. We should, we should have a strong focus right now. I
totally agree. I think amazing call out Max like, thanks for sharing that. I think that's one of the places where we would love the most support from the DAO is just the marketing, the the basically the super chain is an idea that was marketed really well. It's not technically there yet, but folks have ran with the narrative, and we kind of need our own version of that, so we're working on this from a top down level. At OCL, the marketing team is thinking through this, but honestly, I think a much more effective way would be bottoms up strategy with the DAO and just people should posting, and maybe just and I'm not exactly sure would love discussion here and thoughts from you folks. But you know, I think maybe instead of being like, Oh, this is a cohesive narrative, like, just shit, posting about it, posting about it, thinking about it, and then seeing if something emerges out of that from, like, a bottom up narrative, me way, that's kind of how I would think about it from the DAO perspective, yeah. But honestly, yeah, I think there's still a lot of work here to be done. David, do you have any thoughts here? Yeah,
so a couple. So the first one is just to be clear, there's nothing on the interop side of op that the orbit chains do not have today and will not have in the future. So the super chain is just a marketing term. We will also have the chain that same feature. It's going to be less exciting. It's just going to be called Chain clusters, right? And then on the second piece, I also, I also see the need from having a cohesive orbit vision, and that's led by the Foundation and option labs, and that, I see you guys being the channels to distribute that vision. And so for the time being, we're working on that, as Bishnu said, but yeah, I That's how I see the current through stacks comparing. There's nothing we envy from them besides that super powerful message that they all sent. The truth is that it's also strong because of these amount of capital that they deploy across the super chain as well. So that also helps everyone be more feeling they are all part of the super chain. We do have a series of marketing activities lined up where we are starting to test out concepts where orbit support other orbits, and we want to focus that going forward as well, so we are pushing on to that direction.
Yeah, sorry, just to complete it, I fully agree with you, like, as I said, the technical stack, what the technical stock, arbitrum, is several years ahead of everybody, right? But that is being commoditized very quickly. And two, it's less proceed when you know it's one of the decision points factors for
building Yeah, it's a big decision factor. Honestly, it's, it's something I think it's the biggest weakness we have right now. So we're not totally sure what it's going to be like. Obviously, we're seeing the vision internally. Like OCL and Armstrong Foundation, but I think we would love your guys input and love just iteration. Like, like, it like, you know, like you said, Darren, if you throw something at the wall and see what narratives stick, I think that's kind of where we're at right now. We need to figure out, okay, like, what's the sticky narrative that's gonna that's gonna bring, like, the orbit movement to the forefront and allow it to compete with the Super chain. I'm not exactly sure what that is, yet. Go ahead. Go ahead. Iron. No,
I was just gonna say, I definitely, I mean, yeah, for context from Camelot, and as far as I know, we're the only protocol deployed on multiple orbits, so we're at the frontier of not knowing what's going on. But, but no, I mean, I think, you know, we see everything like we're betting so heavily on orbit, because we see it objectively as the best roll up stack and and, you know, there's always pros and cons. And I think, you know, I think, like, Max says, the part that's missing at the moment is this, is this storytelling. And, like, we all know, like, the tech isn't there, this, this interop tech is kind of a future promise, but that does still have value today, you know, in that it gets people bought in to the to the vision, and, I mean, we'll do what we can from our side to make this cohesive and feel like a network, I guess I would just say, as well, like in terms of incentives and things like this, from our perspective. You know, liquidity and volume is still very low on these chains. I don't say that in a bad way. I think it's just like a very early stage for most. I think in the next month or so, we will see some, some much bigger ones that will bring attention to to orbit in general. You know, you have ape chain in a couple of weeks. And I think just naturally, you know, the exposure will pick up with those. So, yeah, I think, you know, like that, there will probably be a place for incentives in my head. That doesn't, you know, if you were to turn liquidity incentives on tomorrow, I probably wouldn't do much. So I think, you know, it's, there's definitely room for the DAO, but taking, taking the time to see kind of how things can be done in a structured way. It makes sense as well, like just doing something for the sake of it. I don't think is is too valuable, considering, you know how early these are, and you know, each chain is so different. It's, it's, it's, it's really hard to say. You know, what works for one might be completely useless for the other as well. So I don't think it's a bad thing, you know, that the DAO hasn't done anything. And I think everything we're discussing here will materialize, hopefully over the next few weeks and months. I mean, for context as well, we're probably, we're doing over a billion in volume a week, and you know, less than 1% of that is from orbit chains, probably even 0.5% so so for us, you know, I completely expect that, but I think by the by the end of the year, hopefully that looks quite meaningfully different. So
totally, yeah, thanks for the thoughts iron. I think, I think you're totally right. It's still super early. A lot of these chains are, are still proving out, like, you know what, exactly their their their wedges and and what they're going to be used for. So I think it's still something that's, that's, that's in development. But, yeah, I think, I think it's super important to have that narrative. And to Alex point, I think, I think it is important down like, upstream of the narrative is understanding more about the voice the consumer. We've been doing a little bit efforts on this at OCL, user research, chatting with the specific chain operators. So hopefully, maybe we can compile some of that data and share that with you guys at the DAO
I mean, and to be honest, for us, our goal is, is that we can make it feel like a network, because then, then, I mean, the whole point of a network effect is that everybody in the network gets more value, right? So, right? If you can go from arbitrum to ape to Sanko, you know, everybody has infinitely more upside than, than just, you know, separate chains which, but, you know, I think at the moment, like, you know, there are some chains that that I wouldn't say hide, but they don't exactly make it super clear that they're an orbit chain. But I think that changes when you have the incentive to be part of this network, right? So totally, it will come with time. And I mean, at least we'll try. We'll die on that hill. So fingers crossed.
Fingers crossed here as well. Darren wanted to give you a quick chance to get your question out.
Yeah, yeah, just a quick final little question. So like in the terms of use for the orbit chain, for the orbit chains, or, I guess, the orbit stack, I notice that the, I guess the we're arbitrum, is currently asking for 10% of protocol revenue from orbit chains. And maybe I'm, maybe I have that incorrect. But is there, and you might have covered this, ra, is there, like, a plan to either, like, raise or lower that, considering that, like the super chain, you know, the competitor is doing, I think it's 2.5% 15.5% of profit. I'm a little bit hazy, but yeah, okay,
I'm not, I mean, I
can take these so we just have it wrong. Darren, so it's net revenue, not just chain revenue. So that 10% compares to the 15% that the OP takes, and actually OP is taking more money, because op says it's either 2.5% of the top line revenue, or it's 15% of the net revenue, which is the one that compares to our 10% so, so on that front, we are actually offering a better you know, the licensing is more favorable to the teams that choose orbit there.
Yeah. And to answer your question, Darren, like we do, try to price competitively. So I think we're less than the competitors, and we only take profit, not of all revenue. So it's, it's, it's, you know, a pretty fair percentage that we take compared to other stacks, but at the same time. And to go to Alex's point that he was making earlier, like maybe that isn't the final landing place in terms of what the value accrual mechanism looks like in the future.
Yeah. And I would also add that we should be looking at this in the long term, where now we are in this hyper growth phase, where the, you know, the fees contributed to the Dow Treasury do not matter that much. It will start monitoring at some point as the whole stack matures. But yeah, the goal in the end now is winning the market share, or now, and yeah, just as part of any tech product, right? Yeah, it's the same knowledge from there. Yeah.
I think right now we win the market share, we consolidate as, like, the leading app chain stack. And then I think part, like, the biggest part of that that the DAO can support with immediately is the community building narrative aspect. So, you know, should posting, thinking through it. Feel free to like, if you guys have thoughts on any of these high level narrative pieces, like, please. Like, don't be shy. Reach out to me directly. Reach out David directly. Just tell us. You know, this is not working. This is working and we really want to be like design partners with you guys as we iterate on this
cool so I would like to actually ask a question for the folks here so we so I want to, I would like to ask you how, how we can do this going forward for for basically, how you can help us with the spreading the vision of of orbit chains. What do you need from us to actually go on social media and just bang about orbit.
Can you repeat or,
yeah, so, so I so community building, making sure that we win the social media narrative. Think it's very important, and we definitely need your help there. So I would like to be able to enable you guys going into social media being comfortable talking about why orbit can compete with the Super chain. It's actually better. So would love to learn, to know how we I can enable that, how I can support you with with that end goal.
David, I personally think that this should be a much wider and bigger effort than just going on social media and doing means and kind of stuff on the on the talkative part, but it should first come as what's the approach of orbit and ecosystem, right? And then so they clarify that, at least from a doubt perspective. So bringing in all the top chains have been deployed, kind of setting up a council together, whatever you want to call it, and say, Okay, how do we bring together? How do we go to the market, to the to the to the users, together as one unified ecosystem that can then compete with the Super chain? Otherwise, it's always arbitrum trying to push everything or, you know, it's individual initiatives that cannot be as effective as something that looks cohesive. So I think that would be the first step coming up with the proposal on how all these, all these orbit chains, new ones, old ones, can plug into the same ecosystem. What's the vision? What are the actions that we can take in the short term, and and then starting, you know, cascading down to communication and marketing and all the other stuff. And then, yeah, memes Can, can pop up, for sure, but it needs to, like right now, it doesn't feel that this is a cohesive initiative. It's more like arbitrum wants to do this. It's very top down, as you said. And so it's, it will not be as effective as if the different daos come together, I believe, yeah,
100% agree, by the way, so sorry for framing it in a different way. I think that then in this case, we can just keep being in touch in the telegram group, but just so you know that we are there to support you, and we are always reachable.
Yep, and go ahead. Go ahead. Max, no,
I didn't want to, of course, like, I want to support, you know what you guys are doing. That's my ultimate objective. I think, I don't know if this is a recording call, but what we can do for next time, maybe draft down a like very short ways on how the daos sees this type of ecosystem and how we can contribute to that. And then maybe you guys can help us in involving the right stakeholder decision makers for all the other the top orbit chains. So together we can come out, come out to the market and say, hey, now we are this. We're doing this, and this is what we want to achieve together by this. What how we build the whole on chain future?
Yeah, totally. I think that sounds that sounds great. Would love to figure out how we can also tie in the existing thinking that has been happening internally at the off chain labs level, because I know folks in the marketing team are thinking about this. I'm not exactly sure where they've landed, but I think, I think, I think having your guys input in that process would be super valuable, and also looping in the chain operators like you said, Max. Cool, cool, cool, cool. Thanks so much for the time. I know we're a little bit over. Really appreciate, you know, all the really valuable discussion that you folks brought to the table. Appreciate you know, the passion that you guys have for the ecosystem and really excited to keep building on this together.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, folks, right.
So, Dave, do you have the last one last thing?
Just wanted to ask if you think it's going to be useful to have a call with a RAS provider so that they can go through what's their business model and how they support orbit chain operators
probably would be viable. We see a rash providers as like the main one of the main distribution channels for orbit chain, so it could be viable. But we'll let you guys give your input. What do you
guys think? Personally, yes, mainly because I I think the DAO might need to make some considerations for how it approaches procurement versus ownership for for orbit chains. I'm not sure if that made any sense, but yeah,
what do you mean exactly by procurement versus ownership?
Right? So like, for like, something like a block explorer, for all the orbit chains to use. Should we be looking for like a service provider for those? Or should we like, would it make more sense to have like a native block explorer that's like, quote, unquote, owned by the DAO, or like, owned whatever for everyone to use? Right? I'm not sure if that cleared it up anymore, but, yeah,
yeah. Like, like, you're saying, Are we, are we gonna pay them a search provider? Are we gonna own them? Sorry, I'm maybe, maybe I totally misunderstood that. Yeah,
I guess that's, that's, that's more or less the accurate way of like, saying it not, I'm not saying that for the roles as a service providers. I'm saying that strictly for the general infrastructure, yeah, for general infrastructure,
okay, yeah. I think, I think it's good, like, we have, you know, folks like Camelot and Iron Boots, who, you know, are aligned, like, like, like, or arbitrum OCL adjacent infrastructure providers we work super closely with. So I think, I think it's probably a mixture of both. I think there's like an independent entity that can, that can execute on their own, but then aligned incentives with between the DAO and OCL and all the relevant stakeholders there, but again, just spilling here. So, so not totally sure if that's the, that's the landing solution.
And then, to add to these, each of the RAS providers, they have their own so they are working with a set of infrastructure service providers like the one you mentioned, plug explorer. Normally as a RAS they will have the connections to the different options they think it's best for their teams. We also have those channels open and available, so we regularly have discussions with all of these players,
yeah, and so, so, so generally for orbit chains, the way that infrastructure works is that the they integrate into the RAS providers. So we, we provide the stack like the technology, but then their batch providers actually enable the technology or implement technology for the specific chains and make any customizations they might want for their use case. So it's almost like we make Microsoft and then they like put it into the computers. If that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.
Awesome, awesome, awesome. Any last questions? I know we're way over time now, but I'm glad that you know there's a lot of great discussions here.
Okay, I guess not. I appreciate everyone for the time. Thanks for the valuable insights. Thanks for all the amazing feedback. Please, please, please. Like, do not be shy. Like, I really want each and every one of you guys to ping me with all the feedback you guys have. So I draw my telegram here. Let's keep let's keep jamming on this. Would love your guys support as we work through this
