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Hi, my name is George Abraham and welcome to Eyeway Conversations. My guest today is Pramit Bhargava, the Louie Voice Control man. Hi Pramit, welcome.
Thank you, George. Wonderful to be here.
So this Louie Voice Control. Tell us about it.
Okay, so Louie Voice Control is a voice app. And the idea is very simple. Just give voice commands to Louie. Think of Louie, like a virtual friend. Louie will take your voice commands and allow you to do each and everything within popular apps. So for example, let's say if you take Uber. So Louie will allow you to do end-to-end Uber booking, right from selecting your destination down to even, you know, for selecting on how you want to pay. Once the booking is done, it will tell you the pin, how far the driver is. You can call, message basically, each and everything within Uber can be done with voice. And this is really what the concept of Louie Voice is and George, if it is okay, can we just show a quick demo of Louie in action so that this whole concept becomes much clearer?
That would be lovely.
Yeah, great. Thank you. So what we'll do is, of course, when I said "voice" the first thing that must have come to everybody's mind is oh there is Google Assistant, there is Siri. So what's so great about Louie, how is it different? So we'll take Uber booking and we'll show it with Google Assistant first, then Siri, and then we'll show Louie in action. Right. So Joe, if you can just put it quickly the demo? Let's now book Uber with Google then Siri. And then with Louie. Hey Google, book Uber for golf course. Google assistant- " Here's what I found." Oh, boy, only Google search results. No, good. Okay, so what happened here is that more often than not Google Assistant will open just the Google search results which of course doesn't help. If you're lucky, it might open Uber with the right destination but that happens rarely. Basically, you can't depend upon Google Assistant if you want to book Uber. So that's the bottom line. Otherwise, Google Assistant is of course a great voice assistant. Great for a lot of things. Not when you want to you know use popular apps end to end right.
Right. So let's see what Siri will do?
Hey, Siri. Book Uber for golf course. Gone silent completely. Okay, so Siri unfortunately doesn't really do anything other than you know, this time it went silent. It might otherwise just open Uber and then go silent. But that's it. It doesn't really do anything beyond that.
Yeah. So how does Louie deal with the situation?
Hey Louie
Hello Pramit, which app would you like to open?
Book Uber go for golf course.
Opening Uber, just a moment, setting it up. Okay, searching for destination, your pickup location is pickup work. Your destination is golf course road. Payment method - Amazon pay. Good to go with Uber go 608 rupees and 79 paise. Say confirm or cancel.
Confirm.
Okay, please wait requesting a ride for you.
This is good.
Requesting ride. Your booking is confirmed. Pin for this ride is 2281, your driver is arriving in five min. Driver profile 4.9 star rating D01 7335. White Maruti Suzuki wagonR. Your driver Nikhil, call or message?
Message
Speak your message.
I'm wearing a red shirt.
Got it. I am wearing a red shirt. Send, rewrite, continue writing or cancel.
Send.
Message sent.
Okay, so like you saw essentially, George, what it did was that it took my command, it understood that I want to go with which ride, where I want to go. And then it like you saw, it just did end to end everything. That's right kept opening Uber screen after another and kept, you know, taking my commands and kept doing things. So that's how the Louie works actually.
So what are some of the other apps that Louie engages with?
Okay, so we started with the WhatsApp because that tends to be the most common, you know, way of connecting with everybody. So we did WhatsApp, Uber, YouTube, because YouTube is again, by the way, I mean, you know, what I have been picking up is that it will probably the most popular app amongst the visually impaired. So again, what we do is when we do an app, we also add value. So like, I'm on YouTube. So you know, one of the very irritating things are these ads, which run and nowadays, they've been running lots and lots of ads. So Louie, there is a setting by which Louie will automatically skip ads. So we have built in that kind of value add. Then we did the Gmail. So everything on your email, for example, even things like forward, CC, BCC, just very precisely, you know how an email needs to go. Dictation, all that is there on Gmail. Google Search which again, a lot of users are asking for something very important. And having that compatibility with the browser being able to read articles. Then we have done of course, things like contacts, phone, calling, text messaging. Even here you know, simple things like you want to create a new contact, you want to edit a contact, you missed a call, you can go into call logs, save the contact, callback, block it. So all of that functionality is there. And by the way, contacts, phone calling and text messaging, because they themselves don't require internet, they can actually work without internet also in an offline mode. Then we have done Facebook Messenger, PlayStore. We are just about to release Spotify and Twitter.
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Another area which blind people use the phone very extensively for is to for financial transactions, you know, using mobile banking apps, or maybe using Google Pay or Paytm. Have you reached a stage where Louie can manage those for you?
So okay because see here, when we handle payments and banks in terms of capability. Can we handle it? Of course we can handle it. So for example, if you remember, even 2-3 years back, WhatsApp used to have payments, then it disappeared for a while, it has come back again. Yeah, so we used to handle WhatsApp payments, but then you know reason why we are not doing it right now. Because we have also built this SDK, the Software Development Kit, you know, so now we are saying that look, why don't we work directly with the bank? In fact, right now, we are talking to one bank. And we are saying that look, we work with them, design with them. So whatever privacy issues, security issues are because you know it may require them MPIN, for example, it may require OTP so all of that we do in conjunction with the bank, rather than doing it on our own. So that's the only reason why we haven't done it so far. But we plan to do it as we go forward.
Now, you mentioned the SDK, what exactly is SDK? And how is it going to kind of benefit the blind user eventually.
Okay, so just like Louie voice is the only app of its kind, you know, which can... there is, in fact, no other app right now in the world which can do this end-to-end voice enabling of any app. So similarly, now we have taken SDK for two reasons. One is that we can, of course, do apps on our own. But if we can provide a software plugin to any app, so let's say if you take a food ordering app, they can take our software plugin, integrate it within their app, and their app will become fully voice enabled. So what it will allow us to do is that many more apps can get voice enabled much faster. That's one. Secondly, we can now do iPhone as well. So any app in the world, Android or iOS can be voice enabled by this SDK. And thirdly, which is very important, George, is that how do we sustain ourselves? Because right now, we are a team of 23, out of which there are some 15 developers. So how do we create sustainability because you can create the best app with best social impact. But if you can't sustain yourself, you know, this whole thing dies. So for revenue generation, we are looking at using this SDK and we then get into a revenue partnership with the companies, with the apps concerned. So the whole idea being is that this consumer app will still remain whichever app Louie voice enabled on the SDK is also available on the consumer app and we can keep the consumer app either free or highly affordable at a low price.
So this is very interesting. And I think it's going to be very revolutionary when it comes to accessibility and blind people getting into the digital world. Is this application of Louie and this voice enabled kind of operation restricted to mobile phones? Or will it also move on to tablets and laptops and so on?
Okay so you see, it's always important to keep a very strong focus. This is I'll tell you where you know, when I built it, what was going through in my mind. I said, look, today smartphones, Android, or iPhone, or iOS, these are the ones which are really there they go in our pockets, we are completely dependent, probably, you know, we don't realize but probably 80% of the activities that we do in our day are you know, somewhere smartphone based. So what we have said is that for a good time to come, we only focus on Android and iOS, and just make sure we do a great job of it and that for some reason, nobody else is doing it as well. Right. So this is where all our focus is and and as we go forward, we look at other platforms, but I think this will keep us pretty busy for next two to three years. And what we are also looking at George is you know, so we currently have users in some 107 countries. Right now, the app is only in English. So one other aspect of accessibility is also how can we put in more languages and put in languages in a manner that you know it's a day to day lingo. So George, for example, if you permit me I'll just show a demo of how we have handled Hindi.
Okay.
So Hindi you know a lot of other people have also done it but they have done it as what I would call shubh Hindi and today unfortunately even my maid will say bhaiya, location share kar dena you know, I mean she won't see know location ka Hindi kya hai, how to speak... So we have done exactly that so we have done a combination of Hinglish which is what we use day to day. So we just quickly show you, Joe?
Aapna message boliye. "Meh ghar par hi hoon". Maine suna, meh ghar par hi hoon. "New line se likho". Aapna message boliye. "Aapko thori der mein call karti hoon". Maine suna, meh ghar par hi hoon, aapko thori der mein call karti hoon. Bheje. "Send". Message bheja gaya. "Location share karo". Vartaman location bheje ya live location? "Current location". Vartaman location share ki gayi. Thik hai. Latest message. Dopahar do bajke sola minute ponch gaya. Iss message meh location map shamil hai.
Location map bhi shamil hai usme.
So basically you know you got the idea. So your user can give a command in Hindi, in English. And you know, it will just work like a day to day lingo. So we right now are working on something like 20 languages across the world. And we love the combination of either doing a pure language. So like for example, we're doing Spanish, which is purely keeping the South American, Spanish, US, Mexico in mind. But we can also do a combination. So for example, when we do Tamil, it will be combination of Tamil and English, coming Tamil-English or whichever we call it. So that's how capabilities are there.
So today as now I think you've been around for a few years now. And so Louie voice control, this app - how many countries does it operate in and how many languages does it operate in?
So right now only in English, but in about 107 countries, we have users across the world. And like I said, now we are getting into you know, newer language. So we'll soon be long launching the Hinglish version, followed by Spanish, followed by Bengali and so on.
Right? This sounds very exciting and something to look forward to, especially with the world going digital, I think this is going to be great.
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Tell me a little bit about your life before you encountered blindness.
Okay. So this was, I think a usual life of you know, just wanting to do well in career, in life. So I did my engineering in computer engineering from IIT-BHU and way back in 1989, then I straightaway went to IIM Bangalore then joined Hindustan Unilever. And I was mostly in marketing, building businesses, running businesses, that kind of space also, I was in Motorola, retail, a healthcare, multiple sectors. And at that time, I think, you know what is in your mind is essentially how do I move up the corporate ladder, you know, essentially, all those materialistic things that you think about. So I had exactly the same mindset.
So when actually did the blindness visit you? And how did it come to you?
See 22 years back when I was with Hindustan Unilever, I was given them medicine for joint pains. Right now, the joint pains disappeared. So that was a wonderful thing, though they're no longer any joint pains, they were extremely painful, but it impacted on the retina. So even at that time, you know, I developed this condition called bullseye on the macula, and then it is irreversible, but then doctors felt maybe it will stay stable, I could get some correction with the specs. So I continued working, but then you know, it just kept dropping, dropping, and about 12 years back, this is when I was doing a startup in healthcare. And suddenly, the vision dropped so drastically that you know, it just jolted me. So I suddenly realized that I could actually sign earlier using some plus 12, or 13 years some kind of very thick spec. And then suddenly, I saw it getting wavy. And suddenly I saw, you know, I just can't see anything at all, can't read anything. So I think that really shook me up. So it was quite a transformation from you know, suddenly getting hit with a disability.
So how did you deal with that situation emotionally, physically and intellectually?
So initially, it was tough, right? So because what happens is, you might have been prepared for it, you sort of know your vision is dropping, but the moment it hits you, it really hits you. And I think what happened... I mean, this is now my theory, as I you know, I'm now like a wiser me about 12 years later. What I realized is it what happens when you somebody gets hits with disability, people around him, friends, family, they are all concerned, and they all tend to say, Oh, poor guy, let us help him. Now, what I was realizing is they were indeed helping me. But then what was happening, even if somebody were to call me, they'll pick up the phone, they'll say, you know, this person is calling and then you know, I'll pick it up, or they'll click on the screen and give it to me. But then what I'm realizing that slowly, I was becoming so dependent that I was just losing confidence. I had no confidence left. Three, four years, I was at home. And I was realizing that look, unless I can start doing things on my own, I will not get my confidence back, you know irrespective of the amount of help others may be giving me. This is where, you know, I actually discovered... I didn't know that there are any blind organizations, by the way, George at that time, I didn't know any other visually impaired. So I was at home I, you know, one day discovered something called TalkBack. So I presume that this will talk back to me. But when I turned it on, you know, the entire family got shaken up, because everybody said, Oh, this phone has got locked, how to use it. We have to go on to Google, figure out how to, you know, get rid of this damn thing. You know, that's actually that was the first impression. But then I saw some YouTube videos, figured out how to use it. And I can tell you, this completely changed my life. And then when I started on PC, similarly I figured out NVDA just because it sounded like a fancy name, NVDA sounds fancy, let me try it out. And you can imagine when I installed it, suddenly, wherever I'll take my mouse, and suddenly it will speak up, you know, things which I otherwise just had no clue what's happening. It just opened a new window. And so therefore, I mean, I can tell you how important this whole accessibility is. And we need to, you know, create accessibility solutions with that view that okay, how can this person now do things independently, which is extremely important, I think, for all of us.
So this transition, which it took three to four years, now, I can make out from what you said that TalkBack and NVDA had a role to play because they kind of showed you definite light at the end of the tunnel.
Correct.
But how did the people around you, I believe you were married? Your other family members also would have been around, your friends would have been around, how did all that work out for you?
So honestly, you know see, just like I was I didn't know how to deal with it. They also didn't, other than of course, they were helping me and everything but then you know how to come out of it. That's why it took 3-4 years because there is this whole internal battle. You don't want to be you know, sort of just fade out in life. You want to come back but that confidence is not there. But I think I got help at the right moment. So for example, like I said, some of these NVDA, etc family, of course helped me, figure it out how to use it more effectively. Then I think friends started helping me because when I really got my confidence back is because some friends actually helped me get some consulting assignments. And that is when, you know, first day I went to the office of the company where I was doing consulting, and I thought I wasn't sure what I'll do. But then, you know, at the end of the day, I suddenly realized, oh, I'm 95% as good as I used to be. Then I realized, look I can do everything once in a while, I can't read something, I can you know, just ask a colleague, shamelessly state the help. There's nothing wrong. Suddenly, that confidence came back so fast and quick. I mean, from then on, I didn't really look back. And then of course, you start becoming better and better at doing things on your own.
So when did you hit upon the jackpot of, or the jackpot idea of Louie?
Actually, I didn't... So you know just to tell you the story is that I was working in corporates, and I was doing the startup, then this whole vision thing happened. And I closed that startup, got into consulting after 3-4 years. So you can imagine the mindset, there was no thought of any startup because startups, first thing that hits you is oh, it's too risky, right? So you know, I just wanted to continue doing consulting. Now, you might have heard of Sequoia Capital. It's a large leading venture capital firm. I think it's among the world's top three venture capital firms. So I was meeting their Managing Director, I wanted to get some consulting assignments, and he's the one, he kept asking me about all these accessibility solutions. And then he's the one he said, "look, why are you not building apps for visually impaired people like yourself?" You are a computer engineer, you have done these businesses and all. So do this. Why? I mean, he said consulting is all nonsense. So I think he's the one who sort of really pushed me into it. There's like, almost five years back. One year, it took us to you know, like you said, sometimes what happens... Then I thought, okay, I'll build something. But then what do you build? And this is when and by the way, George, we are all very good at criticizing apps, oh, this is not good. That is not open. This gentleman turned it around on me and said, okay, enough of that. And you tell me what is a good app that you will built? Well, yeah, and I had no solution. But then, you know, a friend helped me booked Uber, and that is when this idea came, this whole idea of a virtual friend takes my commands, does continuous interaction with me, gets things done end-to-end. And Uber, I think was a perfect example. Because you know if I can do Uber, I can move around. If I can do WhatsApp, I can be socially connected. I can talk to people, I'm connected with them. So suddenly, I felt that look, voice, it's such a natural way. I mean, right now we are using talking to each other in that natural way. So I said, if things can be done with voice commands end-to-end, you know how wonderful it would be. So that's when I said I'm going to build it.
So how did you get your team of developers kind of excited about the idea? And how did you actually get them to stay with you and see you through this journey?
Okay, so I think, you know, I think most critical thing for any startup is how do you get off the ground, because you need some initial funding and so on. So that way, we were lucky, because the MD at Sequoia Capital, he helped out with that. And then we got some big name investors. So for example, the person who headed Google India, in fact, he was heading Google India, when they invested money in Louie, and he was very clear Google Assistant will not be doing what we are working on. So I think we were lucky that we kept raising funding. And then of course, it was not initially, let me tell you, it was not easy to get these developers, because a sighted developer, I've seen 40-50% fall off the moment they hear it's an app for blind, visually impaired, and not because they will like to help but just because they feel, I know nothing about it. So we initially had this challenge. So you won't believe it, we had to actually buy blindfolds, and we put on blindfolds on our developers, because what will happen otherwise, they'll do something and I'll say, look it's not working for me. They will no, it's working, see on the screen, it's working perfectly well. So then that whole thought that it's for a blind person. And there was also a challenge to making them use TalkBack. See, I can tell you how most sighted people do not like the idea of using a screen reader, you can imagine. So these guys were told that look, you have to develop it with the talkback running on your mobile phone. So all that was initial challenge I think and then we hired one or two other visually impaired people. We right now have a blind person also in the team. So slowly when they saw me, when they saw her using the phone, I think we all then starting seeing the results. When you know how many businesses do you get blessings? You know, when people across the world standard saying well, you're doing something nice, keep doing it. I think then we were on a roll, you know. Now in fact, it's not difficult at all to attract developers because they know it's a very advanced leading technology that we are working on.
So just switching track a little bit, you know, you and your wife, for example, you were married even before you met with blindness. How did blindness kind of enhance or modify your relationships and the kinds of activities that you might have been doing as a family or as a couple? What was the kind of change? Was there any change in the way you live your life?
Wonderful question. So there were changes, and they were no change. So for example, both the kids right. Now, of course, we wanted them to grow up normally. So they still did a lot of things on their own. But there are times, you know, when they want the father also to be around, so there were times when, you know, I would be in their football matches, or badminton matches, I mean, you still cheer them and all of that, though I may not really contribute to not teaching them and saying that, okay, if the ball is swinging, you sort of, you know, do it like this or play with them? So for example, I'll throw on cricket, I'll throw the ball at them, you know, that kind of thing. But a lot of things again because like I said, in fact, I became proficient in cooking post my vision drop. Because again, I took it as a challenge and said, look you know because if my wife is going to be, more, you know, drop the kids, pick them up, this, that, etc. So, you know, how can I sort of help, especially in those 3-4 years when I was at home. So I think our lives change dramatically. And I think we all have to adjust, we all have to adjust to the new reality. It's not easy at all. I mean, let me not make it sound easy. And also, just remember, when 3-4 years I was at home, I was not earning anything at all. So you can imagine, you know, there's a lot of pressure, financial pressure, which comes. A lot of fear grips you, this can happen, that can happen, your mind goes completely wild. So it wasn't an easy journey for the family as well. But now of course, when I look back, they're all proud. We just got featured on NDTV also. Yesterday, Mid-day newspaper featured us, and also now people sort of feel okay, something great, but they I think everybody forgets you know, the challenges that were really there.
So now, obviously, you are in a space which you're very passionate about. So do you have anything called hobbies which normal? Normally people have outside their profession? Is there something called a hobby? Or is this Louie your passion and hobby,
I'm a lot into audiobooks. In fact, I'm a voracious reader/hearer of books. So I'm into audiobooks, podcast, I'm in to spirituality. Spirituality, in fact, is something that I really spend a lot of time on especially, I actually, everyday do meditation, and stuff like that.
So what are some of the audio platforms that you might recommend to our listeners?
I would strongly, strongly recommend podcasts. In India, podcasts are not very popular. And I can tell you just download any app, I use podbean, you can also use Google podcasts or Apple podcasts, they're completely accessible. Now, the beauty of podcasts is today there are hundreds of thousands of podcasts of all things. So for example, my day I'll tell you starts with listening to BBC News to Financial Times, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, those are my interests. So I keep completely abreast of technology. What's happening in the world. There are a whole lot of human podcasts, you know, spirituality, podcasts, book recommendations, all kinds of things, any interests you have, you will find podcasts. You're interested in music, there are podcasts around that. So I would say podcast is something that we really, you know, can really dramatically open again, a new window for us.
Right. And tell me a little bit about your kids and your wife. What do they do and what is what state of life have they reached?
Okay, so my wife is now a homemaker, essentially she used to do some consulting work on and off mostly with NGOs. My daughter is doing her master's in economics. She's actually studying in the US right now at Georgetown University, second year. And my son is right now in the school so for him it there is still time, he's enjoying life.
Right. So thank you so much, Pramit to take time out and speak to us at Eyeway Conversations and wish you the very best.
Thank you George so much. Thank you for inviting me.
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