Welcome to Black Feminist Rants where we center conversations on Reproductive Justice and activism. I'm your host LaKia Williams and let's begin. Welcome back to another episode of Black Feminist Rants. This week I got to sit down with Rupali Sharma, the Senior Counsel at The Lawyering Project, and she gave a great primer into Texas's SB-8. The unconstitutional six week abortion ban. Sharma explains what SB-8 is, why the Supreme Court refused to strike it down, and the next steps at the federal level. And next week's episode will be an interview with a Texas lawyer who is leading the lawsuit against SB-8, and she will be giving us a deep dive into what's happening at the state level and the courts. So definitely come back next week for the episode. But without further ado, let's hop into this interview with Rupali Sharma. Thank you, Rupali, so much for agreeing to be on this episode of Black Feminist Rants. To start us off, can you introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, your title and anything else that you want to share?
Sure, my name is Rupali Sharma. My pronouns are she/her. I am a Senior Counsel and Director at The Lawyering Project, and I am currently based in Portland, Maine.
Can you give us a little bit of a background of what The Lawyering Project is?
Sure, The Lawyering Project has been in operation since about 2018 and was really founded to expand access to not only abortion care but all forms of reproductive health care. And we really focus on litigation and legal advocacy to do that. And so that means challenging restrictions in both federal and state courts across the country. We also really try hard to diversify the voices in our litigation, and bring in folks that haven't always been represented and haven't always had a direct line to the court. And so that's just some of what The Lawyering Project has focused on for the last few years.
Great, thank you. So for my first question, can you give us a quick rundown of what SB-8 is and the impact it will have on people who need abortion care?
Sure, so SB-8 in summary is like a lot of the bans that have been enacted in this country in the past few years, meaning that it prohibits abortion care around six weeks. It is obviously unconstitutional, because we have a right to abortion care before viability, which is approximately 24 weeks. But unlike the bans that were enacted previously, and that have been struck down, SB-8 not only criminalizes abortion care but actually targets the support system that patients have when accessing care. And so it prohibits aiding or abetting an abortion, or even intending to aid or abet an abortion. And, you know, aiding or abetting is vague. It's not defined in the law, and really can mean anything and what the restriction explicitly targets is abortion funds and, you know, providing financial support for abortion care. In addition to that aspect, the way that SB-8 really differs from previous abortion bans is that the state of Texas, you know, saw these other bans being struck down, again because they were blatantly unlawful, and instead of just passing a straight up ban and being explicit about what it was doing, actually delegated enforcement of the law to the general public. And so, you know, normally laws are enforced- by directly enforced by state officials, like the health department or the Attorney General. If you violate the law, those figures can bring action against you. SB-8 is very different in that pretty much anyone in the state of Texas and even across the country could sue someone if they suspect that that person is providing an abortion or, again, supporting abortion access. And so for that reason, the ban has chilled abortion care after six weeks in the state of Texas. And what you're looking at is completely devastating. Basically, there is no abortion care after that point. And what that means is that if you have the means if you have the resources, if you have the support, if you're the fortunate one, you can travel out of state and that means traveling hundreds of miles in some cases, because Texas is so large and has, you know, such a large need for reproductive health care. You're seeing folks go out of state and those appointments, being booked out for weeks and weeks and weeks. And so not only are people with resources traveling very far, but they're waiting a long time to get their abortion care, which has all sorts of consequences. And then the folks I think that it really makes sense to keep in mind are all the people who cannot leave the state. And there are many, many reasons why people can't it is expensive to leave this state. For some people, it's unsafe to leave the state. Young people who live with an unsupportive or abusive parent or guardian cannot leave the state without the, you know, their family learning of the pregnancy or the abortion. You have undocumented folks who have to go through checkpoints to leave the state. And so right now you have a very large number of people who are trapped in Texas with unwanted pregnancies, unable to exercise what is supposed to be a right and what other people are enjoying in other states. And so, you know, I pretty much since this law has been in effect, and that was back in September 1, I just want to scream at the top of my lungs, because what's going on is not normal. It's an absolute crisis.
Thank you so much for just kind of educating all of us and giving the rundown. It's really interesting how since summer of 2020, so many people in the Reproductive Justice movement have been calling for abolition and kind of the response we've been given is, we're going to increase policing and allow private citizens to police you. Very twisted. But I also liked that you brought up so many people who can't leave the state because this ban and I've never even thought of undocumented folks and having to go through checkpoints and how that's an added burden. So thank you for bringing that up as well. For my next question, we have SB-8. So can you talk a little bit about the Supreme Court's ruling in Whole Women's Health V. Jackson, and how it's a failure to strike down SB-8, and it's not a win for the pro abortion movement?
So you know, I think you mentioned how folks have been pushing very, very hard for many years, at all sorts of liberation efforts, anything. You know, there are a lot of folks who are on the ground who have been doing this work for a long time, who made very clear years ago, decades ago that this would be the situation if we didn't actually have the right to abortion in practice. And we and we haven't in Texas, you know, not only have scores of clinics closed because of unlawful abortion restrictions, but the folks that I mentioned earlier, who are sort of trapped now have always enjoyed either unequal or no access to abortion care. And so, you know, in some ways, this should come to- come as no surprise what's happening, because these folks have been sounding the alarm for a long time. And so, you know, when this restriction was enacted, it was challenged. And in the case that you mentioned, and eventually the case ended up at the Supreme Court, and the first time it was at the Supreme Court was before the restriction was about to take effect. And the Court declined to issue an injunction, meaning it declined to put it on hold, even though there's no question that it's a six week ban, and for that reason, unconstitutional. And what happened was that the Court cited what I mentioned earlier, which is the fact that this ban is different, because state officials don't directly enforce it. And so it's unclear who the plaintiffs, which are not only abortion providers but abortion funds and practical support groups and other people who support abortion conditions, it wasn't clear that they had sued the right defendants. And so the court really relied on procedural reasons as a pretense not to grant relief in this case. You know, the case came back to the Supreme Court, you know, more recently, and at that point, again, the providers and the funds and the practical support groups and other supporters asked the court to put the law on hold. And they also just asked for the case to continue on. Because what had happened is that the defendants in the case were able to stall proceedings at the Fifth Circuit, which is a court that sits below the Supreme Court. And so the Supreme Court and the decision that we got last week did two things. One, it declined to put the law on hold and to grant an injunction. So the the law remains in effect. And you know, what I mentioned earlier in terms of people having to leave the state to get basic health care or being trapped in the state and being forced to continue a pregnancy against their will, those consequences continue because the ban is still in effect. The other thing that the Supreme Court did was that it said that the case could move forward, but only against one set of defendants, that the case couldn't move forward against the other set of defendants. And this is important for a couple of reasons. One, the Supreme Court misapplied its own law in reaching that conclusion and so the actual legal reasoning and the analysis and the conclusion is incorrect. And, and you know, why does that matter? What how does that actually affect folks on the ground? The problem is not only does that prevent the band from being put on hold or invalidated but with the case only proceeding against one set of defendants, the part of the law that I mentioned earlier, which is that pretty much anyone can enforce SB-8, including someone who has no connection to an abortion, no connection to a patient, that part kind of continues. So that even if the plaintiffs can get relief against the set of defendants that remain, that part of SB-8 that made it so exceptional and made it difficult to challenge in court remains, and providers can still face lawsuits, and abortion funds can still face lawsuits from really anyone in the country, again, without any connection to the abortion or to the patient. And so this requires an immense courage to be able to operate in a field like that, because obviously, you're always at risk of being sued. And I think that the third problem with what the Supreme Court did, or the third consequence, is just that what Texas did, the way that it structured this ban so that it wouldn't be enforced by the state and could be enforced by anyone in the general public, that structure can be repeated to block other fundamental rights. It's not specific to abortion. So that same, you can see copycat laws in other states around abortion care, but you could see that structure with any of the other fundamental rights we cherish and obviously, you know, nobody operates in a silo, abortion care is important, but so is all forms of health care. So is family safety, right? Like there are, there are so many other things that we cherish, and this structure can really be replicated to block other things that that are really important to us and important to our families. And so there's, there's, you know, that added danger to that decision from last week.
Thank you. And I like how you brought up that, you know, this ban can be restructured to other parts of you know, people's fundamental rights. And you know, people always say, abortion rights are human rights. And so if you talk abortion rights, you're essentially attacking human rights. So is there any, is there anything that can be done? Are there any things that the courts are doing that lawyers or abortion providers in Texas are doing that can be done to mitigate some of the impacts of this ruling? or reverse it? Is there any next steps past the Supreme Court?
One is that not only the plaintiffs in this case, but, you know, there have been other challenges to the law, both in federal and state court, those challenges will continue, and the plaintiffs, you know, will fight with- with every fiber of their being to get relief in those cases. But, you know, as I said before, many folks on the ground have been very clear for many years that you can't turn to the courts, you know, for a community's well being and for the security of rights. The courts are usually where you turn when there are no options left. And so I think the real work, the real work that is sustaining people and sustaining communities today, in Texas and outside of it, is really being done by folks on the ground in and really direct line services. And so I've mentioned abortion funds and practical support groups in particular, Texas has some incredible groups who are working directly with people to help them get care within the parameters of the law. And again, a lot of folks are traveling out of state, and they would not be able to do so if they didn't have financial support, if they didn't have logistical support from these groups and from providers in other states. And so I think that's, that's really, I think, when you're thinking about, you know, what is making the situation bearable for some people, and how is the work being furthered? And what are the next steps? It's, it's that network of organizations and people really making sure that that, you know, at least some people can pull through this. And so I just want to, you know, focus on them.
Yes, definitely. Those are all my questions. Thank you so much for this. This was a great like primer, just like rundown of everything that's been happening in the courts. But thank you so much for this interview, and for all the work that you do with The Lawyering Project and just supporting abortion rights everywhere.
Oh, I'm so glad. And thank you so much for having me.
So there you have it, folks. That is the end of the interview. Thank you so much, Rupali, for being on this episode and educating me, just teaching us so much about SB-8 and what's happening at the federal courts. And if you haven't, please BFR if you haven't opened up the BFR audience survey. Please do that. I'm trying to get 13 more survey responses by my birthday, which is December 19. Literally this Saturday. If you want to give me a birthday gift, please fill out the audience survey. It's in the description below. Also, there will be some action items in the description, which is like a new thing that we're starting. So per usual, the new usual, check out the description for some action items on how you can support the movement for Reproductive Justice. See y'all next week!
