Nice to see humanoids, always the big hello wave factor. Oh nice. Avatars out there, hi avatars. Hi avatars. Okay, cool. So a couple things today I have a doctor's appointment, so I have to leave it about an hour maybe 40 minutes or so 35 minutes or so, my dear friend Joel. He knows more about this stuff than I do. He's graciously going to kind of hang out with you all. So I hope that's okay. Uh, the big thing is this, this weekend I'm doing with Bob Thurman, so that's the only little lemonade stamp thing right now. I'm actually quite excited about this program and instead of saying too much about how amazing it's going to be, I mean working with Bob Thurman, it actually is a real honor and it is kind of amazing. He's when he is on a roll this guy's unbelievable, but I wanted to read two quotes, just to give you a sense of some of what we're talking about first one is actually from Bob. And the second one's from the Dalai Lama so this is what Bob says. So this weekend's on Tantra pure lambs, a Buddha land of pure land refers to the environment of a Buddha was actually quite a deep statement here, signifying that the evolutionary transmutation of the finite individual into an infinite body of awareness, takes the environment with it. So that self another indistinguishable, as beings are relational next i are interconnections a relative self and environment. The Enlightened transformation of one implies a transformation of the other end quote. That's an amazing statement. And so that's that's what we did. So the first Pureline weekend was on pure land. This one's more on pure mind. And then the third phase is the interrelationship between pure land and pure mind. And this has a lot to do with, with, like the deepest forms of ecology, actually, really deep ecology is is connected to this the inextricable connection between landscape and MindScape and how I'll be peppering in some amazing statements from people like Trungpa Rinpoche j, where he says I read this in a pretty esoteric text where he says that one of the reasons there's so many earthquakes and natural disasters and all the stuff is. It's actually because of the, the environmental catastrophe within the minds of the people that inhabit the environment. And so this stuff is mind bending, it's just it's when I read this and study it. It's like, it's just, it's like a mobius strip, are they talking about mind, are they talking about land are they talking about both. I love it. And so connected to this is a fantastically rich topic on the hidden lands bail BYU L, which by the way if you're Shambala student Shambala is a bale. And so I'm gonna read a little bit about what His Holiness says about this and then we're going to be talking about Bob in particular, is going to be talking about a number of these different bales you could be anyone right now you could be in a hidden land right now, and just not know it. So, that's cute. Wait a second here I want to do that. There we go. So, yeah, so here's this quote from the Dalai Lama centuries ago, texts were discovered in Tibet describing the hidden lambs, where the essence of the Buddhist Tantra is said to be preserved for future generations. These revered scriptures are attributed to Guru che they describe the valleys reminiscent of paradise, they can only be reached by enormous hardship. Pilgrims and that's the other thing we talked about is Outer, Inner and secret pilgrimage so by going into these places, this is me I've obviously, by going into these places they're there, their power spots, and therefore, the practices that you do in these locations everything's amplified magnified. And that's one reason to do pilgrimage, both outer and inner and then obviously both pilgrims who traveled to these wild and distant places often encounter extraordinary experiences similar to those encountered by spiritual practitioners on the Buddhist path to liberation from the Buddhist perspective sacred environments such as Pemko that's the more, the most famous one. And so I'll be talking about that one,
are not places to escape the world but to enter it more deeply. The qualities inherent in such places reveal the interconnectedness of all life so this is where this whole idea that my friend David Lloyd talks about is how real bodhisattvas today are equally eco sutras ECOSOC was working with the environment and so this this material actually empowers the way we relate to the ecological crisis and how that external crisis is an external reiteration recapitulation of the internal crisis of mind and heart within the people that inhabit this planet. The qualities inherent in such places we build the interconnectedness of all life, and deepen awareness of hidden regions of the mind and spirit hence hidden lands. Visiting such places with a good motivation and appropriate merit the pilgrim can learn to see the world differently from the way it commonly appears from impure to pure developing enhancing the Buddhist virtues of wisdom and compassion, whether this mysterious sanctuary, hidden, amid Penagos and other hidden lands mist shrouded mountains can ever be located geographically is of secondary importance to the journey itself. In the Buddhist tradition, the goal of pilgrimage is not so much to reach a particular destination as to awaken within oneself. The qualities and energies of the sacred site, which ultimately lie within our own minds. That's the lie right there, hidden lands serve to inspire others not only to venture into unknown lands, and a geographical level but also to discover the inner realms within which our own deepest nature lies hidden. I love this stuff. So this weekend is not so much about going to a particular geographic location, which by the way, you know sukawati And these other pure lands are just as real or unreal as this, but it's more like what tick not Han says, Not rebirth in our next life in the Pure land but rebirth in the next moment in the Pure land of the present moment. So anyway I'm jazz, I'm psyched about what we're going to be talking about so far today. I've had repeated requests about playing this, this short thing I'm not going to play it because I don't have an orchestra here, otherwise I would, this is one of my favorite musical things and in. So Patricia, this is for you. I want to say just a little bit about it not the composition itself which is one of the most exquisitely beautiful things ever written for piano for sure, but how it is that the music in the creative arts altogether, lift us up. And I've reflected on this a fair amount how, you know these incredible works of genius, they're really on a deep level they don't come from Beethoven, they don't come from Shakespeare. Any anybody any authentic creator will tell you that when they compose in a certain way, they're not doing this right there, they're almost getting out of the way.
And, you know, channeling I mean, that's slightly unfortunate New Age term but those of you who are artists creators, even dancers, at any level you know, when you enter the zone this flow state. This would be great to talk to Joe about because he's super you know he's a best selling author of Zen golf. And this is very much attuned to that type of flow state that you can enter and become, you know, like a creative genius on the golf course, or anyplace else so this level of creativity is not just limited to the arts. But what I wanted to say here around this and then we'll actually listen to this is short movement second movement of the fifth, the fifth Beethoven piano concerto, which is actually my dharma Well, no, this isn't my standard well that when I die, I want this to be played at my funeral, my eulogy, because it's just so it's just wrenchingly beautiful right and right around the four minute mark, you know, there's this, there's this melody that comes in it's like just tears your heart out and so at least mine. So, I've thought about this a lot and one of the reasons I believe these levels of art, poetry, music, whatever, lift us up so much is because they actually come from the sambhogakaya. For those of you who know that term, they come that's where their pyramids hang out by the way, so this is connected to that whole thing. These are pure lands emanations really. And so, the symbol GokaiOh when it's transduced transformed into these art forms. It lifts us up into that realm, because that's the realm from which these minds get this stuff that's what they're tuning into. And that's why any honest artists and my dear get my different David Lloyd has written extensively on this in his book non duality. He has a really long riff on exactly this topic he doesn't use some brokerage terminology, but it's the same kind of thing, where the great musicians and others really, this this type of non dual perception, that they're actually communicating to us. And so to me it also talks or reveals what Trump MPJ talked about so beautifully, is the ideal emotion, which he said was sad joy, sad, joy, it's the kind of sadness, by the way that word sadness comes from a root that means satisfied for the fullness that you hear or feel with something like this or something that really moves you. That is, that is this kind of CO emergent quality of being both sad and joyful at the same time. And so with that said, I I found a cue a link, this is one of my favorite performances by one of my favorite pianos Arthur Rubinstein of, you know, my one of my top five piano concertos, the Beethoven fifth called the Emperor. And so the way to listen to this. Oh, yes I have this quote. What did I do with it.
Did you want me to play this from the beginning.
Yes, from where it starts, obviously, cut, cut out that and write that down. There's this beautiful line of course I oh here it is. Here it is. This is from TS Eliot. So this is the way to listen to this and it's kind of in line with this little music track I'm doing I started with a podcast with Krishna Das. I've got some of the things in the works around sound, but this is this, this is the way to listen to this music. This is from TS Eliot from the Four Quartets talk about magnificent writing. This is what he says. music heard so deeply that it is not heard at all. But you are the music while the music lasts. This is fantastic. You are the music while the music lasts and so the way I look at this is is by losing yourself in this kind of display, and maybe next time just for the younger audience out there, you know I can play some Dave Matthews or something. I love dead white man's music I'm a classical piano so that's my major thing, but I love good music wherever it comes from, so maybe later. We can play some Dave Matthews right. I haven't really into Dave Matthews these days. But you can by losing yourself in this art. In a certain sense, you can find yourself, and by that what I mean is, is you literally dissolve into the sounds like TSLA is talking about. And so, when, When I was doing the sing with with Katy with Krishna Das he was so cool when when we were listening. I was watching him you know he turns a light down and it's just like he just dissolves into the sound and so, to whatever extent, this, this piano repertoire speaks to records I think we can listen to this as a type of meditation, actually. And Andy I will cue you, around you know the seven eight minute mark, the one thing about this movement is that doesn't have a hard stop, it actually kind of just bleeds in to the start of the third movement and we don't want to go quite that far. So maybe around the eight minute marker so I'll flag you and we can stop it. So anyway, that's that's a little musical offering for today which we have not done on this format before so let's see how it works. Okay.
Good night any better than that for me. Thank you for listening. That's different. Thank you, Patricia for the opportunity so
almost seems a bit jarring to transition space. So, but that's not why we're here, we're here to talk about things so the best form of conversation is silence but we're here to chat. The couple of really nice questions came in, I'm going to take a couple of I'll take the first two and then. And if you can send that the the Dr. Joseph, I think he's really qualified to and answer the one from Sally. He has it no more. A few more came in, I'm going to right now. Yeah, excellent. So, I'm Sharada. Not a question just wanted to thank Andrew, for helping us with his book preparing to die when my cousin was in her last phase II I just this past weekend. It helped her in the family tremendously she passed away the night of the reading peacefully thanks familia, thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing that. Not easy, from Brooke. Yeah, this is a this is a tricky question broke a really good one. A friend of mine has some concerns about her 94 year old mother's apparent fear of dying. And that's perhaps, and thus perhaps holding on the family would love to be able to support her and bring some ease or comfort in any way that would be helpful, but aren't sure if they should bring it up with her. She had said several years ago she wished she had a faith to hold on to like other people. And she lived with cancer for many years, she's often shut them down when they bring up sensitive topics as a family, they are very close and loving but don't share feelings about these deeper topics, and don't have a spiritual practice or much understanding regarding death experiences that themselves. They will love any suggestions or encouragement and how to support her yeah this is a good one tricky. I, you know, I can share a little bit about my experience with my dad, my father, similar. I tried for four years not overtly, but, you know, to gain some segue some way to you know really just ask him how can we support you, Because I was writing this stuff before he died. And I want I really wanted to help my mom was much more open my father, you know, traditional Eastern European kind of classic. Yeah, I don't want to project onto him what may not be there. Right, I wouldn't say maybe repressive just you know not terribly emotive, definitely a very felt human being but just he just did not want to go here, and I tried in relatively unobtrusive ways well before he was afflicted with esophageal cancer, saying Hey dad, you know, have you ever playfully Have you ever thought about what happens when you die. Nothing like, end of conversation. Right. And I tried a little bit later on a different topic, no interest. And so you know I just dropped it and you'll probably get different advice on this in different ways broke but the best thing you can do is support them, and this is where you and the family members have to realize this is not your rodeo. This is theirs, and
even though your intentions, maybe, and I'm sure they are completely benevolent noble and good. It's not really an our place to come in with anything but unconditional love and support for where they are. And sometimes this can be even supporting them in views that are completely antithetical to your own, you know, you fundamentally want to try to create an atmosphere that the image that I use, that I think is helped me. You want to create an atmosphere around the dying person. That is the same type of feeling and atmosphere that you have. When someone you really care about, imagine some big burly guy who's you know you really, really close to and he just he or she just gives you this big warm hug, and then you know that kind of holding environment that hugging environment, what does it do it just makes you open relax and release and so using that as an kind of over arching narrative that you just want to create that space and this is where it becomes a practice for you and your loved ones to really listen, pay attention, and if those opportunities are there and sometimes they do present themselves. Sometimes there will be moments where they will say something where that could be a little segue yet but then of course you don't come charging in with all your, you know highfalutin ideas. No, then you, you may be just gently work your way in. And then, the practice is really one of really, really sensitive witnessing listening, where they lead the dance, you don't lead this dance, they lead the dance. And if you're really open to it, they will tell you what to do and sometimes the best doing is nothing. Literally nothing, just be with them in your presence, especially with your pacified mine I mean, Christine Longacre who lost two husbands. She's very really beautifully on this topic how it is I poke completely believe her. How it is that when a person is especially on their deathbed, you know they're their boundaries are dissolving their, their mind is almost literally mixing with space. And so therefore, this is where you can start to help them without ever saying a word by being in that space, with your own heart and my heart and mine, Christine goes so far as to say and I believe her that you could literally practice for them, you can literally mix your goodness, your openness, your love, with their mind. And then you're really helping them when they need it the most. But I, you know, that's just the way I relate to it. It's not in our charter to come in there and convert them. I mean, absolutely not. And so these overarching narratives are what I tend to put forth. And then the practice challenge for us is working within those suggestions you know how do I create that holding environment that hugging environment, you want to do, you know, whatever craves unconditional love and support allows them to release let go and relax whatever does that, that's what you do. So, maybe all I can really say on a really great question. Okay, a couple came in, and then I got just a few minutes from Wendy I've been listening to Susan Blackmore she's a pistol isn't she. Oh my god, what a whippersnappers she is Jesus, a pair of psychologists who turned into a psychologist, very sharp thinker. I have a lot of respect for her her, her conversations her writings around out of body experiences are the most penetrating and lucid I've ever run fact I had a conversation I was in a group with this one of the world's leading authorities, and philosophers this Monday Tom that's anger. If you don't know this guy's work you need to. Unbelievable mind. And we I was engaging him in some conversation about OBE hyper lucid dreams and that sort of thing. Then he said until he read su Blackmore, he really, he really bought into the whole OBE thing and Sue's riff on that is really brilliant. So I've been listening to sue Blackmore and Sam Harris boy there's a tag team. Oh my god, I love them both. If there's no free will, would it follow that whatever practice, we follow was not our choice.
Oh,
Joseph, this is a perfect question for you, tongue in cheek, these are so difficult. Without freewill, there can be no merit or blame. Not quite. Where has my thinking gone wrong. How do merit and the lack of freewill coexist, who I knew I should have skipped over this question What a great question. Yeah, the you that you think you are has no will have free will but the you that you really are is nothing but freewill. And so we have to dance, you know, there's a reason scientists, philosophers scholars mystics have been debating this, this issue of freewill for 1000s of years. So why do you the fact that you're wrestling with it. I mean, welcome to really good company. These questions are really difficult, you have to kind of centrifuge out the difference between relative and absolute truth, not trying to get into this nihilistic thing that you know and again this is why I like Ellen Wallace's interjection if you're in the when the month, the Tuesday night groups, I sent out three links. If you're not let me know and I can send it out to you. There's nothing restrictive about that. I sent out three links with one with Sam Harris one with ALAN WALLACE one with physicists Sean Carroll interviewing, Robert Sapolsky in his new book behave.
I think that might help you Wendy if you haven't listened to that that will really help you so we have to be careful when we talked about no free will, not to slip into nihilism, oh I don't exist, you know, I don't I don't have free will doesn't matter what I do now that it doesn't work that way. So mera definitely still applies there, we're not like overly it, you know hapless victims of the vicissitudes of our own minds, we do have abilities to guide the mind stream that's out there. So, oh my goodness, you know, I'm not sure where else I can go without just having an entire presentation on this one it's such a great topic. But if you don't have those things Wendy let me know and I'll send them, I'll send it out to you. Maybe next week, I can post it, you know, it's basically close to four hours of presentation three and a half hours of presentation with some pretty sharp people talking about this topic. It's not easy to wrap your minds around. So I might recommend that. And then unfortunately I have to go try to delay my impermanence. By going, going to my doctor, and then it's like hysterical right after my doctor I chuckle I'm going to go to the gym, and every time I go to the gym to work out. Really this is no kidding. I always remind myself that health is just the slowest way to die. So I'm gonna go delay my mortality by seeing my doctor, and the delay it even further. No, I live in total denial of death. Don't believe anything I say. Just kidding. But I do need to run because this I had this appointment for a month and I can't meet leave it so Joe is going to take over. He's the best as you all know, I will see you all next week. Same time, same place, and thanks for the adult and son on the Beethoven thing that music just recently departed every time I hear it so all the best everybody into the Good Hands on my dear friend Joe see you all next week. Right.
Hey everybody, so I thought this would be a nice time for a little gap. If you can reflect back to the music you're listening to, and we'll take a few breaths and have a little bit of overt silence, and maybe you can connect back with music in your mind, and then we'll continue on.
So that does transport us, doesn't it, it's, it's amazing. I wanted to offer something about the 94 year old mother, because my mother turns 94 this year. So we have something in common, and the things that you, you know there are different levels of things that you can do. One of them, for your, you know you have, so you have the mother of your friend. And then you have your friend and her and her family of this mother. And then you have you. So starting with the relationship with your friend. Clearly, the mother has fear of dying but your friend has fear of the mother's fear of dying. So, it is helpful for you to create it, and Andrew is talking about atmosphere and atmosphere is really important. And you can use your breathing to create that atmosphere. So when you're talking with your friend you can pick up on their energy. Human beings are like tuning forks, if we notice the frequency at which we're vibrating, it's usually because the people that we're with are vibrating at that frequency. So, so you can pick up and and reflect that with your friend and say, you know, this isn't a particular spiritual practice, but this is a grounding practice and a stabilizing and centering practice, and just be with them breathing together for a little bit. And as best you can pick up on your friend's breathing and kind of mirror it and stay with it and then you slow yours down, and your friend will slow theirs down as well so that's something you can do together. And then you can say see what we just did, is something that you can do without even telling your mother that you're doing it, but just try to tune into her energy and be with her. And by you being peaceful, and you not being anxious about her fears. She'll pick up on that and it will relax her fears because, you know, it's interesting we talk about old age as a second childhood, when you have a one or two year old, sometimes they'll trip and fall, and they don't know how to react and they'll look to their mother, and if the mother says, Oh, you'll be okay then, they don't get all freaked out. But if the mothers all freaked out, oh you fell Are you okay, then they start crying. So your energy is very very important and if you're peaceful, and you aren't concerned with what's going to happen, that you can include that in your life, and share that that idea with your friend, that that's the environment that they need to create for their mother, that, that will be helpful it's all atmosphere, and the atmosphere that they create, without calling it a spiritual practice. And the other thing that's, that's helpful, is stories, maybe even like children's stories, but stories that talk about the journey of life. And rather than confronting directly and saying, Oh, here's a story about how people handled this dying. Just talk about stories and you don't want to come, as Andrew said straight at it, you don't want to be charging in. But sharing stories, and family feelings. And, and all of the qualities of gratitude, appreciation and acceptance of the changes we go through in the course of our lives. So any of those subtle messages that this is all part of the, as they say, the great mandola the grit, the, the, how the journeys through life without making a big deal and create and and amplifying the fears. I think that might be helpful. That's what I tried to do with my mom. The, the other question about freewill is very interesting, because when we say Free Will it posits this
self, as Andrew was saying, this separate independent unique self that's acting upon a separate existing environment, or other, and even, even our own bodies, you know, when we say my hand. Well, there's a my who's possessing this object the hand. So there's this sense of separation, as opposed to saying, oh, that's the part that's, that's me, as five fingers, and upon. So, so the thinking going wrong, is only thinking do realistically, rather than thinking in a notion of interdependence and integration, so that it is a interdependent arising. You are part of that inter dependent arising, but it's not you separate from the arisings, and I think that that's a better way to understand it and look at it, so it's kind of like that, it's not really the right question, it's not the, it's not that you're thinking about the question has gone wrong. It's really not a valid question as far as ultimate truth goes. And, and in the Buddhist tradition the Buddha called those questions that tend not towards edification that you can, you can go down the rabbit hole with those, and never really get to the point which is how do we work with our experience, moment to moment. I hope that's helpful. As an amplification of what Andrew was talking about. Let's do Sally's question that Andrew handed off to me. When I do tonglen, it works for me to imagine the wrathful deities, consuming all the suffering that I breathe in, and then they turn it into love and compassion, and etc. When I exhale. Can you give me feedback about this, I think it works for you. Well, that's one of the operative phrases, it works for you, which is, which is helpful to clarify for people who haven't been doing the meditation class. Let's go piece by piece. Tong Len, is a Tibetan word, it's two parts that means sending and taking, and it is the practice of reversing our usual habit of trying to take in what's good and get rid of what's bad. So this is an expression of compassion, we try to take in from others. What the negative experiences they're having and radiate out and replace them, or relieve them in that way, with positive experiences. We also do that for ourselves, that we acknowledge and take in and own our negative experiences, but then transform that energy and radiate out positive energy to ourselves and to others so that that's the basis of the tonglen practice now. The, what, what people often do the end the base idea of the practice is that you start with a sense of openness and the traditional expression of emptiness word is Shinya Cha but it doesn't mean void emptiness like space but basically openness and non separation or interdependence. So if you flash on that, that non separateness, that interdependence of all things. Then there's not so much, taking in negativity and it landing on this separate you It's like what we just talked about, of free will. It's not this separate you, but it is this particular formation of energy. And in that way it doesn't, it doesn't kind of land on us now, it's easier for some people, and, and I teach it this way very often to imagine in your heart center that's at the center of your chest at heart level, a beautiful clear crystal made of light or a an orb of radiant light that represents your true nature of
of free and open positive energy of wakefulness, we call it awakened heart so that your awakened heart can accommodate this negative energy, and instantly transform it and radiate out the opposite positive energy. And what Sally is doing is imagining the visualized for deities called wrathful deities there. The idea is these are anthropomorphic forms in a with very wrathful expressions, and what they're wrathful about is wanting to cut the sources of suffering, particularly egotistical, clinging and self centeredness. So, by imagining these as taking in the negative energy and eating them, essentially, eating the negative energies and the suffering of others and radiating out compassion and kindness to relieve others of suffering that is a way of doing that, if you understand those red Sally if you understand those wrathful deities as an expression of your own nature. I don't see any problem with that, particularly in general it's taught more that it's a quality of light, so that you don't. I think Andrew uses the word reify an ordinary language is, you don't make a thing out of it. You don't make a thing out of the deities, you don't make a thing out of yourself. You don't even make a thing out of the negativity. It's the flow of energy that we want to transform and and relieve people of the suffering that they're going through, that is added on that's unnecessary suffering. You know this quote is attributed to the Dalai Lama and many other people but I don't really know exactly where it's from, but I like it and that is that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. It's the additional negativity that we add on to it. And, and the tongue learn practice is meant to try to relieve people of pain as well but particularly of suffering. So I hope that that is helpful. If you want to any further elucidation I think you can just raise your hand and Andy will facilitate that.
Zach says, and then we'll go one more and then we'll, we'll do the live ones, sex is three months into daily meditation practice 20 minutes, morning and night. I find with a certain sitting posture and slow deep breathing, I get a lot of nervous system sensations, almost like chills, or it says good bumps but I'm wondering if you mean goosebumps. It also reminds me of sensations I've experienced on hallucinogens. Is this typical does it mean you're doing something right or wrong. Thanks. That's from Zach. The in the tradition that I was brought up in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. There's a story of a great teacher going to his master and saying, oh, sorry about this. I have all these dreams. What do they mean, and he said, they're not good or bad, just keep practicing. And then he said well while I was practicing and had these hallucinations and I had these visions, what do they mean, and he said they're not good or bad, just keep practicing. So the idea is that we have lots of experiences. And we're looking for confirmation is this good is this bad. These are the kinds of things that happen, you could almost say there, as, as, you know how old buildings as they settled, you're a creek or grown or something like that, as you're settling in. These are kind of like leftovers, almost like hangovers of your speedy mind, that are just flashing a bit. So I wouldn't regard these as negative, and in some cases, you know, when we really settle in some place you know, If you think about when you fall asleep, sometimes as you're falling asleep, there's this little twitch that happens. And I think this is a little bit, a little bit like that, that this kind of thing can happen, because we're so not used to being still and being that relaxed, being that settled, so I don't think that it's something to worry about just notice and say, Oh, label it, say, Oh, little bit of chills. Keep breathing. Oh, Goosebumps. Keep breathing. I don't really think that it has a direct connection to hallucinogens. In my experience, but what you're experiencing on them is still part of your experience so it's an arising. It's appearances arising from your state of mind, not good or bad, it does not mean you're doing something wrong. It doesn't mean you're doing something right. So, it's, it's not particularly a sign of confirmation one way or the other. I think that the whole point is not to look so much for doing it right or wrong but, but to appreciate the opportunity to have those periods when you can be settled and quiet and learn about your own state of being. Do you want to. If you want to come on Zack and you want to go further with this I'm happy to do that.
There's a question about the borrows in everyday life course but I don't think I can answer that Andy's gonna cover that for you. And Alex raised his hand. LSU still there.
Actually, he just put his hand down.
Come on back, various areas.
Hi. Hi, Joe. I got laid to the meeting today. Just getting goes getting the last bit of it and just want to ask you know because you were talking about helping or being with somebody that is dying and he just so reminded me of the time when my mom died, and how well it seems we as a family did everything wrong, I think, you know, they were trying to, they were. They weren't straightforward with her to tell her that she was dying, even though the doctors were saying she's gonna die, she's gonna die, and the family kept like no don't tell her. Don't tell her. So we didn't even get to say goodbye. It's it's it was kind of a crazy, crazy experience. And then I remember she at some stage she was already an agonizing, I don't know this word exists in English. She was, you know, she was, she wasn't really her was coming and going, you know, agitated, agitated. She was like, she wasn't really conscious, you know, she saw me the last time she saw me. And it was a bit crazy because she said Alex are You're right. And I thought, what, like, you're the one who's dying. And you're asking me if I'm right, and then she go went and say, and she say, Are you alright with me. And I was like, I, I couldn't, I was, it just came so suddenly, I couldn't, I didn't know how to react. I didn't know what to say. So I didn't say anything and then she left, she was gone. Again she was, you know, coming and going from conscious to unconscious and she was, she was leaving, you know, she was dying. Okay. And then, and then she. And then she died. And I had this crazy dream with her. The night after. And then I have talked about her then years later I realized I was I was abandoned. When I was a baby, because she went on pursue her arts career and so. So that's when I started hating her and now she's so present all the time. And I have this love hate relationship with her, like, half the time I'm, I'm literally causing her apologizing because of cursing her, and trying to make peace with her, and sometimes I'm trying to help her in a crazy way, but she's all the time. She's present all the time. So, I don't know, I guess my question is how can I help her. How can I heal the relationship.
Oh, yeah. Yes. And how long ago did she die,
five, six years ago.
Okay, so first of all, to whatever extent that you might feel like she's hanging around, you know, I, I don't have personal experience, I have personal experience, I think, but I don't personally remember the after death state or the before being born state of the Bardo of lifetime to lifetime, but she may have already gone on her journey. And this is all your recollections, but you can say you know to whatever extent, you're still here. I forgive you. And I'll be okay. So those are the two main things. I forgive you. And I'll be okay. This is something that goes along with the other people who were talking about working with dying people. Their biggest worry isn't themselves sometimes, or at least part of it, but it's part of are you going to be okay. So they don't want to let go and go on their journey because they're worried about you. So it's very important to say, I'll be okay. That's one. The second part is, I forgive you, so that they don't feel like they need to get something more from you. So, you want them to feel like they don't need to get anything more from you, and they don't need to give anything more to you. Those are the two now for you, you need to do tonglen for yourself, which is read in all the anger and negativity that you don't want, and radiate out patience and forgiveness to yourself. And then feel like you're making that different relationship with her, and that is acknowledging the anger, acknowledging the pain. And then, forgiving. Forgiving forgiving because now that's in the past. And what we want to say whenever we relate with something in the past, we don't want to deny it. We want to say what can I learn from it, to make the way I relate with other people better. And then how can I forgive it so that I can let go of it and not be carrying it along with me. So I hope that that's, I hope that that's helpful. Some along the same lines, someone else, Mary Rose just wrote, she's a caretaker and she adds that she asks her mother about her dreams. And that's kind of like doing the stories with them. And I think that's a lovely suggestion. Ask her if she remembers your dreams and if she does. Then, and wants to share them, and then you talk about them together, and, and Mary Rose found it's a great way to engage. So I think that's lovely. It sounds great. Um, Tim asked me. Hi Joe Have you come to peace with facing death eventually yourself. If so, what was the most helpful practice to help you do this. Oh, that's a really good question. I would say a little bit, a tiny tiny little bit. I have come to terms with that. But mostly, I don't believe it, because I, I see myself making a lot of plans. Lots and lots of plans, and you know there's a in the, in the book, Jewel ornament of liberation by Gampopa, there's a little aside where he says, you know, people think next year I'll do this and the year after that I'll do this and the year after that I'll do this and meanwhile, the lord of death is standing with his hands on his hips and laughing. So, we don't know when it's going to happen, and much of the Buddhist path is involved with preparing for that because we don't know, and, and they are called the Four reminders, the four thoughts that turn your mind to toward practice, and it says that death is
the reminder. It's kind of the whip that drives you to the the encouragement that gets you to practice. But then at the moment of death, it's the liberation that gets you to let go. I don't, I don't recall that now there is a practice that's helpful to, to recognize and face death and I learned this. I think it was Chuck did talk to one of his books, and what he would do in the morning. What before he got up, he would take the blankets off but it keeps the top sheet. And he would pull the top sheet over a line his back and pull the top sheet over his face and pretend that, and he would imagine that the doctors were all standing around the bed saying, well we did all we could to save him. And he, you know, and we hope that he's at peace now, and they're all talking about you like you're dead, so that you actually imagine that that's what's going to be happening to you. That's an interesting practice interesting practice I don't want you to freak yourself out. You don't have to pull the covers over your head, but you can close your eyes and imagine it, but the, the, the other thing that helps me now that I have gray hair, and wrinkles, just looking in the mirror, reminds me that I'm on borrowed time as they say. Let's see what else we have. Do you have any other questions here, Andy.
No other questions there's just another chat comment I put in the document.
Oh, just the explanation of and description of tonglen. Yeah, yeah thank you I'm glad that I'm glad that that was helpful,
Shantelle just came on with that raised hand.
Oh, hello Shante ohh Shante ah so how do you pronounce your last hearing
it, Sherry.
Sherry, is it Italian,
actually no, it's Maltese, but my name was used to be spelled xe ri which is Maltese but my grandfather wanted to be like an Italian so he changed it to the Italian family that's amazing.
I'm just gonna call you The Maltese Falcon.
Oh sure.
Well, nice to meet you. Thank you for sharing and taking over for Andrew. I love where you were going with this, especially when you're answering the question about, you know the thoughts of like, well how do you prepare for death per se, but it's so interesting because what came to my mind was in Andrews book he was talking about the whole idea of like stopping the self referencing right like when we think of death, or thinking of us dying, but do you think like more practice of like, just stop with the self referencing will that also help, meaning like when you were talking about making clans, like you're just basically moving forward as this force in the world, not necessarily as Jo per se, but like, you're kind of just moving forward. So for me, I've tried it as much as possible. I know I mean but I try not to like do the whole self referencing thing, I don't know what your thoughts were on that,
that's, that, that is undoubtedly helpful I know when I'm making the plans it is Joe, making the plans, it's not just plans being made. So, um, so yeah, the, the idea is, again, the practice and Shantelle let me ask you, how do we go about reducing the self referencing.
I'm so trying to be like, less, less self conscious about what others might think of me, or kind of like when I'm going into meditation, I'm trying not to be like, Oh, I have this experience because I've actually had some serious paranormal stuff go on in my life over the years, and I kept thinking, Oh, well, how does it relate to me. And it honestly distracted me so terribly, so I tried to like let these things come up as a thought, and then boot them right out, meaning like, don't let them land and that's what I loved. We were saying like, don't let them stick on you just breathe, let that come in and then out so that we're not reifying ourselves so I just I'm really turned on right now because of all of this like in terms of like the teaching, because I just feel like this idea of self referencing I feel like kind of keeps us reified so it's like let's just move through, being aware of kg of course with others and being respectful and compassionate, but don't like get hung up on. I don't know about like Shawntel and like, how is she i don't know i That's what sort of comes to mind.
I can tell you are excited about this. I appreciate your enthusiasm and I think that that a real key point has to do with others as reference point, because it said that what hap oh and that reminds me of another practice that, that I did, but the, the others as reference points. It is said in the teachings that one of the biggest concerns as I mentioned is, what about others. And so we say, you know, from the, from the generous point of view it's, you know, what about them. I don't want to leave them worried about things. And I was just reading an article about giving away, extra possessions, You don't really need. So you don't leave, right, right now my wife is dealing with her, her father Pat has passed away, and her parents were hoarders. And it's a nightmare. And so, so be being aware and saying you know what, this is how I want to leave things I want to be considerate of others. In fact, if there was one great teacher who always after before he went to bed he he cleaned out his tea cup and turned it over, and traditionally that's, they only do that when they're going to go on a long journey. Wow, so he would acknowledge in case I die, overnight, you know, I don't want things to be left for other people to take care of. Now the opposite side is people say, what are the what's going to happen to my possessions, I don't want them to have them. I don't want that guy to have them, and we get very attached, and that's what keeps us from going ahead on our journey. So, what reminded me, this is for, for Tim the other practice. When I was in retreat, and Andrew did the three year retreat as well. When we did the Bardo practice. We would take turns that one person would be pretending to be have passed away, and they couldn't eat anything from the kitchen, they couldn't eat anything except what was put out on this special little shrine for the dead that has passed away. And everybody would ignore them completely, walk right by. If you if you forgot that you were the one who died, you'd say hi and they just would not answer. And see you felt what it was like to be a ghost. And there was a, some people did fine with it some people it freaked them out. So, these are different ways that you can kind of preview the experience, but all of that has to do with the same quality of are we attached to things, or are we able to let go. And that's just what you're saying, the practice of letting go of self reference point of What do others think of me. And, you know, the Me me me less of that. And, and Tongan is is fabulous for that too. Totally. Thank you. And I liked what Donald has as a golfer, we are on the back nine. Yeah, only a couple of holes to go. Not just the back nine.
I'll bring in, Barbara, as a question.
Hi Barbara.
Hi, Joe.
Hi, Andy, thank you for all that you do. I just wanted to say a couple things about dying. The subject of the moment, Mingyur Rinpoche che, in his book in love with the world. He has a section at the end there where he gives everything away. That was one of the most moving and transformative things I've ever read about dying right because I think that there's a practice about dying where practice some of us are practicing, you know, oh, okay, how am I going to do this, what's important for me and that I think he called it some kind of mantra for him because I don't quite remember it but, but he gives away the places that he loved and he gives everything back to itself, until finally he moves from the large, you know the mountain behind his house to ultimately himself, and he gives himself away to himself as he thinks the moment of death is coming, and I was just so moved by that and I thought, Okay, what a wonderful exercise that ends up in giving the self back, right. So I just wanted to bring that into the discussion,
I'm so glad that you did because it is an extraordinary, extraordinary book, and an extraordinary picture of someone going through the dying experience really convinced and certain that he's going to die. And this is a very realized teacher, so I think that Andy I don't know if you have the reference for that book, I think it's in love with the world
in love with the world. Yes,
I mean your membership, but I mean you're in shape, I can't recommend it more highly to to everyone, to, to be going through that and going through that to read it for that experience. And one
other thing that I, you know, hit that book got me got kind of really going on the Bardo study. And then I, I've been doing Andrews, you know, work following Andrews work and the webinars and you know the workshops and whatnot but one of the things that I was really like I'm really taken with an eye, I'm probably not an advanced enough practitioner, but I love the idea of the POA, and the ability to actually move the energy out to the top of the head, in order to enter into the next level of, of the Bardot's, and then into the, into the Bardo of becoming i What, what do you have to say about the practice of preparing for the POA.
Well I think that it is an advanced practice. So it's really not something to be talked about generally because those are the those practices, there's a caution that always goes with them, and that is that if they're not done properly, they can actually cause harm. So you, you want to be careful. There, there have been people that and POA is a Tibetan word that stands for rejection of consciousness, right, you actually learn how to send your consciousness, out of your body, and there's big warning that saying, you know, you think you're dying but you might recover. So you may not want to send it out prematurely. And then again, if you wait too long, you might miss it. So, you have to have a sense of humor about the whole thing. I can't emphasize more about how important a sense of humor is throughout the whole thing. and, and we talk about emptiness and Shinya TA and all of these highfalutin concepts, they really come to a sense of humor, not taking the whole thing so effing seriously and not taking, and ultimately most important, not taking ourselves seriously. So, what's going to happen to me when I die is a whole different thing than what will the death process be like, that's a whole different thing. And so, so, um, as far as this power and the rejection of consciousness goes. The idea is to understand what the meaning is, and that is letting go, let ting go is the whole point of that meaning. Now, what I'd like to do is bring back this notion of Bardo and Bardo means in between state. And most of the time we're referring it to as that state between dying and being reborn, but there are other Bardot's the Bardo of dying the Bardo of of the after death state the Bardo of entering into a new life. But then there's the Bardo of this life. And the most important Bardo to understand is that each moment we die to the person who we were and are reborn into a new person. Now, we get confused thinking that there's this continuity, and that there's this one entity that continues on, moment to moment, you know, through in a continuous way, But really we are, you know, oh, acknowledged my age, when you have cellular film, you can see there the separate little frames. Okay, and there's space between them that there's no picture in. And then the picture shows up again and then there's a space in the picture shows up again, or a flip page book that looks like a continuous motion, but it's separate pages. And really, we are more like the frames than the continuity. So if we understand that, then, and this kind of goes with the free will question. Every moment has infinite new possibilities. The momentum that we carry with us, the momentum we carry with us is what sort of impels us, but the more freedom we have from the baggage that we're carrying with us, the more each moment is fresh and new. And we can take rebirth in a very fresh way that isn't, you know, carrying so much baggage around. We think that all we have is a carry on. But right behind us is the porter with that whole big tray with full of suitcases and boxes. Let's be realistic about it. So the less baggage we can have and that's part of the meditation practices is unloading the baggage, the mental baggage about ourselves so that we can keep moving in more and more and more freedom, and ultimately be able to let go when the last thing that we have to give away is this body
earful. Thank
you so much. Thank you.
My, my pleasure. This is what I've heard. And yes I endeavor to it I don't. As I said, I don't recall the last transition.
Hopefully, I hope I'll recall the next one is a good opportunity to take a moment. Take a few breaths. That's my three breath meditation. Andrew doesn't want a one breath, that's about the same length, but I don't hold my breath as long as he does so. Any other questions or comments or offerings.
As of now, we have nothing else queued up.
I see Carol's raising her hand. Hi, Carol.
Hi, Joe. Can you hear me.
Yes,
I'm great. So, um, first of all thank you and thank you for that last image of us doing the carry on and all that luggage. It was just, it was, it's very visual for me so it was very helpful. Thank you. I have a question, I few nights ago, I was watching this movie called my father with Anthony Hopkins playing the father who's going through Alzheimer's. Pretty powerful movie because it was showing from his perspective, what was his experience. So, um, I was thinking about that, and wondering if the people that have practice in their lives. Like, you know what Andy. When Andrew was talking about the cutting back cutting back cutting back about selves, being solid and permanent and independent, when they do come to the stage of having Alzheimer's. Do they have a different experience a easier experience, or is the mind so I know that the word scramble but it's not possible to hold it together anymore. In that way, you know,
I only see it from the outside, you know, my mother's going through that now. And there's some very interesting phenomena. I don't, I don't want to stereotype but, but I've heard I've heard this quite often. It's interesting, people who were just sweet as pie. before they got the Alzheimers, get real nasty. After they get it. Yeah, my mother was not that nice. Through most of her life she got the all she got all times. She is sweet as pie. Yeah, she says thank you and I love you more than she ever said when before she had it. So it's very bizarre. It's very bizarre now for her, there are times when she's just, she watches old movies a lot, and read subtitles. But she doesn't remember you I say what movie watching, no idea. She said what happened in the last scene. She's got about 30 seconds of memory, yet every now and again, something triggers, and there's this adrenaline that kicks in, she gets very agitated. And then it's like she's in the past. She asked me. I got it. I gotta get home, I think I left the garage door open. Well she hasn't had a home for 30 years. But she's back, about 50 years ago, and thinks she left the garage door open and she is experiencing that as if it is happening now. What, what, and I have a very good friend, a couple of books on Alzheimer's. And so I learned a lot about how to relate with that. and you can't convince them that things are other than how they see them, which it's an extreme version of our reality, because we see things from our version of them, and somebody is going to tell you that not how it is and you go, yeah I'm looking, I'm looking at it right there. That's how I see, you can't convince so I said, I said, Oh, you don't have to worry about it I stopped off on my way here and close the garage door, I saw that it was open and closed. And she goes, hmm, thank you so much. So, really, they are in a hallucination. And that's what's happening now, my brother is a world famous neurologist, he has a, a Endowed Chair at the University of Michigan Medical School and I said what's that about and he said, You got me. So the brain is very, we just don't know a lot about that. And that's what happens in, in Alzheimers, those kinds of strange experiences of different being, being in different times. So you begin to see time is a very relative thing for from their experience. And so we have to, we can extrapolate and say you know time is a relative thing from our experience too. We should, We should recognize that all of those extreme states are indicators of elements that we all go through and we all experience. Let's do one more, David. Nice to see you again I've known David, how many years, David. I know it's 95 I think 75 I agree. At mark the house. 46 years
old, glad to still be seeing you there, Joe.
Great. So far so good.
It's been a great ride. So, I don't want to ask a general questions, inspired by what Andrew was saying at the very beginning. And I'm always wanting to know more about different perspect people's perspective on on why we continue to fail so dramatically in taking care of the existential environmental issue we're in today, which is kind of dual it's both climate change but it's also destruction of the overall environment, mass extinctions and all of that. And it, it's just like the Lords of materialism, have just gotten so glorified in our society that we can't even see something else as a possibility that would stop it. Well, what's your perspective on all of this, do you have some.
Yeah I have I have two perspectives. Okay. Um, one is the general perspective that we are extraordinarily selfish, and, and it's basically, I want to make this the most convenient I can for me. And, the heck with everybody else, and the heck with the future for sure. And, and so there's that. But the other is that our kids capability of producing things really outran our prehistoric relationship with the environment when there weren't that many people I mean, you know, elephants, aren't that careful about where they poop. But there aren't so many of them that it destroys all of the water in Africa. But we have become so populated, but, but we bring with us the prehistoric notion of, throw your garbage. If you look at traditional societies, they didn't know how they don't know how to work with the modern situation because they throw the garbage, where wherever, but it's a, it's a whole ecology, and I remember being in Nepal, and they were talking about getting rid of, you know, getting rid of the garbage. And I said, Don't do that. You can't do that. I said, What do you mean he said, Well, look, the dogs are going through the garbage and that's where they eat and the cows that are going along, they eat stuff like that. If you get rid of the garbage the cows are going to get sick and die in the street and cause disease and the dogs are going to then attack people's own pets and the whole thing is going to get out of whack. So you have to treat the thing as a whole. You have to be able to relate to it in a holistic way rather than just patch this up patch that up patch. The other thing up. So, it, it really, it's really catching up. Our physical relationship with the environment with our, our mental and and rebalancing, we've gotten so far out of balance, that it is a rebalancing of function that's necessary. And it very well may be in some scientists thinks that we're already past the tipping point. And it's just a matter of how do we keep it from getting even worse. But and, but as long as people are saying, I don't care about the I'm not looking at the whole thing I'm looking at what's in it for me, that is the number one biggest obstacle. So the best thing we can do is help people, you know, practice mindfulness and and understand that there's an interdependence, and it's not me versus you it's not a zero sum game.
If you're going to be asked for one word or one phrase that would kind of sum up what the environmental movement needs to do. What would you say that might be the focus because it's a very slow process, working with, with your mind and I completely agree with you but
is there a risk of waking up waking up waking up ourselves, and finding ways to wake others up. Cool, it always comes down to waking up. Thank you everybody so much, and what we want to do is dedicate the benefit of this to the environment, and, and all the people, the environment and its inhabitants. So may the practice we've done, be of benefit to others as well as ourselves. So thank you so much. Thank you for your nice chat comments.