Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.
Welcome, welcome. I'm Theo burns. I'm one of the members of the thoughtful counselor podcast team, and I'm really excited to welcome our guest today, Dr Candice Harkins, who is not only a member of the counseling and Counseling Psychology fields, but has done a lot of work in a lot of different areas. Candace, welcome
thank you for having me. Yeah, maybe we can
start by just having you talk a little bit about some of the roles that you have and also some of the work that you do within the counseling field.
Okay, so I am an associate professor at Amber University's Rollins School of Public Health, and I have done all the psychology boards and all of those good things. And I'm also most proud that I am a debut and so those are some of the fun things that I do. I do practice a little bit on the side, but mostly I do research. Awesome.
Tell us a little bit about some of the research that you are currently doing, and we're I want to both highlight the debut author piece, which we're definitely going to get into in a little bit, but maybe we can start by just talking a little bit about like, what are some of the areas of research that you specialize in? Yeah,
so I specialize in sexual and mental health, equity in relationships, so individuals who are in romantic relationships or community relationships, and the project that we're working on right now is called the ad sex fund study. So we're looking at black and white women and their romantic partners and how these social determinants of health influence their arousal and desire and other aspects of their sexual functioning
that, um, feels like it's not only a needed component, but a component in our knowledge about sexuality that has been pretty limited for a long time.
Yeah, and especially when it comes to people with racially marginalized identities, we typically see like HIV, STIs, unplanned pregnancy research, but we don't often see research on good sex or things that make sex good, or aspects of sexual functioning, and it's so important because it's a part of our DSM and ICD, like these are things that we get to diagnose as mental health professionals, and yet we don't see them enough in our
research. Yeah, I can totally I can totally understand that for sure. Can you tell our listeners a little bit just about your journey in the field of mental health? So I'm picturing like younger Candice, right? And how younger Candace got from undergraduate to now being a first time author and running these really, really awesome, amazing studies walk us through that
16 year old Candace learned that she wanted to be a psychologist in a psychology class in high school. So I took this class, and I was like, oh, that's why my family is nuts. And so that was like, that did it for me. I was like, I want to do this. I want to be a psychologist. And so when I went to undergrad, I don't know who told this to me, but they were like, you know, black people don't really see psychologists. And so I was like, Oh, well, I guess I need to be doing something relevant to the community. So I ended up becoming an English teacher, but then my classes became like group therapy, and I just went back in to the mental health field. I became a I did my Master's in professional counseling, and then my doctorate in counseling psychology, and I thought, hey, I want to be a sex therapist. I want to focus on sex like that's my jam. And when I was in my last year of my doc program, my mentor at Delgado Romero was like, I think he would be a really good faculty member. It's like, I don't know, because y'all look happy. It was like, that's a US thing, not the profession thing. I think we should go for it. So I did it. Ended up at the University of Kentucky, and I had a nine year career there where I got to study sex and all of. The fun things that I enjoyed researching, and I most recently transitioned to Emory in August. And so I've been doing this work for a while now, and really loving every
bit of it. And so it sounds like one of the ways that you transitioned into an academic position was you had a mentor who kind of said to you, hey, I really think you should go for this
absolutely. And I wasn't necessarily prepared on the research side. I liked research, but I didn't have like, a ton of publications or anything when I graduated. I learned on the job, honestly,
yeah, and it sounds like you were really able to build a research program around sexuality as someone in the field of counseling and psychology that was able to take you to different kinds of understandings and areas that you wanted to know more about,
absolutely. So I asked the good questions that I was curious about, and I mostly do qualitative research, so it means I get to talk with people and really understand their stories, and that led me to new questions and more fun research ideas, cool,
how, how did you decide that you wanted to focus on sexuality?
I knew that very early on, so when I went into my master's program in professional counseling. It was to become a sex therapist. So I was curious about how human beings engage in sex. Why? What behaviors, all of the goodies, and then it just transformed into a research I didn't even know sex research was a thing. And then when I found out it was, I was like, Oh, I get to do the practice in science. Yes,
awesome. So it was like figuring out that this thing that you wanted to do existed and going, oh my gosh, I can't believe this is a thing. Yes,
that's awesome.
And then so you're in, you're at the University of Kentucky, and you decide that you're going to write a book. Tell us about that.
It was a long journey. So I knew I wanted to write a book. I've known this my whole life. I've always been writer as long as I could write. So from six seven, I have, like journals from when I was 10, stuff like this, where I was writing stories and poetry and all kinds of stuff. But I didn't know what type of book I wanted to write until I understood better, like, what is the thing that is going to really make my mark and resonate with people? So when I was at UK, I started pitching, or, you know, wrote a book proposal, which is its own thing. And Lori Mintz actually was the person who shared her proposal with me and kind of guided me through that process. And so then I started reaching out to agents and publishing houses, and I kept getting rejections. Kept getting rejections. I got like 2025, rejections before I found the publishing house that really saw what I saw in my book, and wanted to take that vision into a reality, which was row house.
So there's so many pieces that I want to reflect because I think they're so important for our listeners. So one is, is this idea around getting mentorship on a proposal, so that if you are interested in a book, it sounds like you outreach? Someone was like, Hey, can I get some mentoring around how to write a proposal? And then I heard so deeply that there were several rejections before you found the right fit that it was like you were asking folks to publish. They were coming back and saying no, and you kept asking until you found the fit that was right for you.
That's right, and rejection is a part of it. And I knew that going in, I didn't know as much that people would reject you for reasons that you didn't find were related to your merit. And so rejection because your platform's not big enough was a really big one for me. They were like, you want to see 50,000 100,000 followers on your social media, and you don't have that, so we're not able to take you on. And so I didn't anticipate that. I figured if I knew my science and I knew my stuff, that would be enough, but that is a part of the process, because book selling is a whole marketing gig. Yes,
yeah. So what I'm hearing is that it wasn't even about the quality or the content or the science underneath the work. It was, how are you able to market the work? What types of social media platforms do you have? How many followers are a part of your experience and that that was a big piece about you, either connecting or not connecting with certain publishing houses?
Yes, absolutely. Hmm.
What was that process like for you?
It was, it was something that I kind of knew that was going to be difficult, but I didn't know why, if that makes sense, so I knew that I was going to have to try and try again. I'm used to that, like I'm I'm a person that if I don't get it the first time, I'll try again. I'll try again. But when there were things that I didn't feel like I had any control over, like you can't. Make yourself be viral. You can be consistent with your social media, but if people you know pick up on something and it goes viral, that's kind of happenstance. Sometimes it's just luck. And so it's like, I can't control this thing, but what I can control is that I continue going for it, and I continue reaching out to people publishing houses that I'm interested in. And so when I found row house and they were interested in my work without all of the other things that some other publishing houses were looking for. I felt like that was a good fit, because they saw me, yes.
So you felt really seen as a whole author, like holistically, by that publishing company. That's so vital. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So so your book has this origin story around your kind of tenacity, pushing it forward, right? Tell us about especially for the listeners who want to know a little bit about the writing process. What was that writing process like? So
first you write your book proposal, and that includes, like your author, author bio, some summaries of the chapter, your market analysis, like who else is writing books, similar who might be the reader for this, like your target audience. You write all of that up, and each publishing house has their own version of what that should look like. So drafting a proposal and doing some revisions on that to refine it each time, that's just step one. Then once I got a book contract and signed that, writing the book for me was like taking that proposal and really flushing it out in ways that captured the heart of who I am as a writer, the science, the stories of the clients, the fictionalized accounts that I wanted to weave in, and that meant draft after draft after draft. My publishing house, and most of them in like popular media, they provide you with the developmental editor, that person reads your drafts and says, Hey, maybe this isn't landing the way you thought it was, or here's some things you should try in your next draft. And so we went through several revisions of the manuscript before it became the book that's published now. And every time it got better, every time I felt challenged to rise to the occasion of the feedback. And so for me, feedback is love, and I really appreciated that process.
I love the idea of that feedback being love instead of criticism, because I think so many times we can get feedback and feel like it's critical or not necessarily know the origin from where it comes. So I appreciate you framing it for us around like, No, this makes it better, and so it feels place of love. Yeah, that's awesome. And so tell us a little bit about the book, maybe even things that, if listeners are interested, what they can expect as they read it.
It's called good sex stories, science and strategies for sexual liberation. And in it, I talk about sexual liberation as a menu, and we get introduced to these cultural recipes, relationship recipes, that are force fed to us. And then I break down, like, why these unseasoned sex menus come to be and what are the ingredients? I call them sexual seasonings that many people in my research studies have said are the seasonings for good sex. So not the behaviors, but like the attributes, things like passion and nastiness and love and fun that each chapter represents. It's our breakdown, some stories science and then some strategies for people on that journey that's awesome,
and for those that are listening, we'll absolutely link the book on the thoughtful counselor website, and also provide you some information where you can get a copy of the book. I want to go back to this thing that you were naming, which is there's this kind of menu and kind of food metaphor I heard you use the word seasoning earlier, and what a delightful way to kind of think about our sexuality and its many forms and facets. Where did the food metaphor come from?
So like I told you, I had a developmental Ender, and the first metaphor I used was a cotillion. I was thinking about sexual debut as a cotillion. She was like, that does not resonate with people. And I was like, Yeah, I don't even have a cotillion. Why am I using this? And my husband is a chef, and so I was like, Babe, I'm really trying to figure out, like, how to make this translate, and food, for me is like a love language. And so like, walk me through, what a spike, the difference between a spice and a seasoning. What's the difference between a menu and a recipe? And how did that? How did that? How does that work together? And he kind of helped me unpack, like, each of these layers of it to build out that metaphor.
Oh my gosh, that is so awesome. One, I did not know that your husband was a chef, so that is amazing. And two, what a great kind of visual of you kind of thinking about ditching this metaphor of a cotillion. And. You thinking about food in the love language of the two of you collaborating on this, this metaphor for your entire manuscript. What a cool idea.
Yeah, because it was like food that everybody likes to think about food. Who is thinking about like, what?
Totally Yeah. And so it sounds like once, once that shifted, it was helpful. What were your biggest challenges in the manuscript development process?
Oh, being pregnant in writing and having less energy than I typically have. So like, you know, when we saw each other, we were working on other stuff, and I was, like, fully pregnant and also writing this manuscript, and then I had to maybe a little bit early, so nursing and writing like just navigating all of the other life responsibilities, including my full time job and my body changing and life changing all around me while I wrote a book, I had a really good time writing the book and researching and doing all of that, but managing life while I did it, I didn't get to go off, you know, to a resort for three weeks and just write it like I would have loved to do in a fantasy world. I had to write it in my real
world. Yes, I so appreciate that differentiation, that life doesn't stop when you're doing a project of that size, and so it sounds like navigating all those other pieces. Yeah, I still haven't met the person that gets to go away for three weeks to resort and like, where's that person at?
Look, I'm imagining that if, for whatever reason, I become a best selling author, like on the New York Times list, and I'll have the money to go away for three minutes for the next book, but until that happened, I'm be writing it in my office.
That part. Yeah, totally. But no. I mean, I can appreciate also, just like, I mean, as you were naming, like a like as a mom and doing some of the things with a new child, but also, like working and having to do all of the things that are happening, because the rest of our job doesn't stop when we're doing something at all. Yeah, yeah. So tell us a little bit about how you know, as the book has come out, what have been some of the reactions? How have Have people been responding? And also just a little bit about, like, what type of impact you're hoping the book will have, and it's kind of debut,
yeah, I'm having the type of impact that I want on a smaller scale than I would hope for one day. So the people who are reading it, like I had never thought about this, this is something I want to talk about with my about with my mom, because she had this idea. Now I have this idea, so it's resonating in a way that makes people feel enthusiastic about sharing it with somebody else. That is what I wrote. I wanted people to see themselves in it, so I made it sure that the people that I represented had a variety of identities, that the sexual experiences I talked about were comprehensive and nuanced, and that when you read it, you could see you or someone similar to you, and not just in most of the books that I read where you know the participants that they talk about, or the vignettes they give they look one way, or they have One experience. I didn't want it to replicate that. And so I'm having that impact. And people are really like, once they read it, enjoying it, having a good laugh, also thinking about, like, how they can get free. That's what I want, the scale. I think it just takes time. And I I'm kind of on the journey with it. Like, if it's resonating and people really like it, not just saying they like it, then it'll grow at the in the way it's supposed to grow.
Yeah. And so thinking about it more from a place of, not like, what are people's experiences with it, but really thinking about it on, like, a growth or a developmental trajectory, it sounds like, Yeah, that's awesome. So obviously, when you get through a project like this, right, there are so many, I think, moments where you recognize where your field misses the mark and where your field needs to go. And so I'm thinking about us as counselors, where as you have engaged with so much information, where do you feel like the field of sexuality focused counseling needs to go? Where? Where have you seen the kind of holes that we have not filled yet?
So some major holes are in people who have gender expansive identities. When I think about, like the sexual dysfunction research, it's heteronormative, and so it's like talking about cis men and cis women, and it's just missing a large swath of people. I think about the way that we represent various racial cultural identities. In the research and using like deficit lenses with people and sex positive lens with people of the global majority and sex positive lenses are kind of missing. My research team has been trying to fill that gap for black people, but I think missing it around people who are indigenous or Latinx or Asian diasporic, like we're still missing a lot of that, and I hope that that work gets done. Yeah,
you brought up a couple of different topics that I kind of want to dive into. So the first is that my hope is that most of our listeners have heard the term sex positive before, but if they haven't, what does that term mean to you? And how do you use that as a framework for your work?
For me, it's a liberation framework. It's one that invites you to see sex as a normal human aspect across the developmental lifespan, that there is good to sex. It's health promoting, that it's not just one specific script, but multifaceted, and that there are ways to talk about sex that reduce the stigma and the shame and the taboo and encourage you to be open and vulnerable and have the type of sex that you're worthy of. So that's what I think about when I think about sex positive. I
just got chills thinking about having the type of sex that we're worthy of, right? That's such an important part. Yeah. And then I think the other thing that you mentioned, which I think is really important, is how much of the literature doesn't focus on a variety of different racial and cultural identities, and for people that are kind of identifying within the bipoc umbrella, and it sounds like there's real gaps in that literature too,
absolutely, and those gaps, I am hoping that we're training the next generation of scientists who are equipped and interested in filling those gaps. Yeah,
yes. And so where you know, on the flip side of that, where are the areas as you were doing your research for good sex the book, where are the areas where you're like, hey, we've grown. We're actually doing the work in this area. Like, where are some of the strengths that you have noticed have have kind of increased over time?
I'm liking the research that's coming out around sexual pleasure, and so pleasure being an aspect of sexual health and not just disease prevention. There's been so much good work done in that area thinking about pleasure as a multi faceted construct, and not just physical sensation, but also emotional competency, oriented Pleasure, pleasure for like, knowing what you're doing, like pleasure for connection, all of these, these ways that pleasure is being conceptualized. I'm really liking that area.
Yeah, I just need to give a shout out to pleasure for one second. We just so appreciate you the P word into our conversation, because I think it gets left out of so much, especially in the film around sexuality. So yeah, appreciate that in I am imagining listeners who are at a very different stage of their journey, and thinking about, Oh my gosh, like this person wrote this book, I feel inspired for our counselors, or even counseling trainees or students in the field of counseling who are listening to this and are like, Oh my gosh, I want to get to that place. I'm a big like, reach one, teach one, human right. And so what advice do you have for future professionals who are wanting to follow you and be in your footsteps? I
think that your footsteps are as important as mine. Like none of us are in a hierarchy. But if there's a book you want to write or a thing you want to do, like get the mentorship, like, reach out, shoot your shot, and ask people how they did what they did, that made a big difference for me continue to be resilient in the face of rejection, because it's a normal part of the process for most people. And also sometimes you can even start your own thing, like the the publishing company that I went to is a woman of color owned publishing company, and sometimes that is the thing that allows somebody to really see you, or, like, get where you're coming from, where the larger publishing houses might miss the mark, because they're they're foundationally built around some oppressive systems. And so sometimes you have to transform systems, and sometimes you have to build new systems. And don't be afraid to do that in your journey, either.
Yeah, and so as you're walking through the this new experience, really recognizing that some of the systems that you might encounter might actually just be ones that are rep perpetuating a lot of kind of archaic, oppressive experience. And so being able to transform even though you haven't encountered it yet, but you can still transform even though it's your first engagement. That's right, that's such powerful work. Yeah, I want to shift a little bit and ask, because a lot of our listeners may be in practice based settings. And so what are some, especially as you think about your book, but also some of the research that you've been doing. What are some of the kind of general practice implications that you have for practicing counselors about how to talk about sex, or how to use some of your findings in their clinical and counseling work?
I want to emphasize that I situate clinical experiences at the top of each chapter, because that's such an important part of my training and the work that I do, and it's so essential that this stuff is not just theoretical, but applicable impractical. And so my clinical work informs it just as much as the science it's like, what did I learn from being with people on their journey to sexual liberation that I can translate to others. So I think that recognizing yourself as a practitioner, as a highly valuable contributor to this work is already important, and then thinking about when you want to help clients talk with each other about good sex, have better sexual communication that you have the tools to help people have those courageous conversations, to help them think about the meta communication behind the communication, to help them reduce the perceived threat of talking about sex, whether it's based on stigma or taboo or some other fear or threat to Self, and to increase their skills in having conversations like that's what practitioners are trained to do, well and absolutely being a listener like we listen and we don't judge, right? And so modeling that for your clients around sex, and that might mean for you as a practitioner, reducing your own awkwardness or fear and all of those things about sex and so that's some good continuing education that you can pursue.
Awesome. Yeah, so it sounds like one is, is being able to model, but also it sounds like providing yourself with the opportunities to get the education that we need, especially if we haven't had the education, not only in our counseling training program, but even before that, in high school or elementary school, because I'm aware of some most of us didn't get it. Yeah, that's right, those data are pretty clear that we were not having the conversations we needed to have. So yeah, and I so appreciate you also naming the importance of the communication piece, both the explicit, but also it sounds like the implicit piece, the meta communication that you were talking about too. Yeah, yes. So I have to bring in the a word, the advocacy word, because, you know, that's a part of who we are. Where do people need to fight? Like heck,
where Don't we need to fight. Man, oh, my goodness. So some of us are burnt out from the fights that we've been fighting for decades, right? And I get that. I want to honor that, yup. And also those of us who are resourced and nourished and ready to fight like please be at local, state level and federal level. Work like so locally, your school board might be a place where you can advocate for comprehensive sex ed, and that means that you can pull on the research or pull on your experience as a clinician. To be like this is why we need this, because people are out here struggling. It might mean that you go to the days at the Capitol or days at the hill that your state level organization has going on, or even APA or ACA has going on, because they already have, like, enrolled with some of the legislators. And so you can make your mark in that way writing letters, doing op ed, so things don't always have to be talking to a legislator like writing an op ed can make a big difference. Where you talk about an issue of why it's important, coordinating with organizations that have been doing this work already for generations, so that you don't have to do it alone is essential, because liberation is solidarity work. All of those are advocacy opportunities, even at the organizational level, whether it's your practice, your agency, your university, the local organizational policies, can make a big difference too. So starting there, yeah,
and just again, what our listeners don't see is me just kind of like throwing my hands in the air as you're talking just a couple of things. I want to name it you reflected. I think one is, is just the importance of figuring out which which of those levels, and it could be more than one that you want to do. But I heard a little bit like on a more micro level, thinking about the advocating with school boards for more comprehensive. Sex Ed, but also thinking about some of those larger kind of state or national levels where you are able to link efforts with other people in order to really fight for some needed change. Yeah, absolutely.
We're trying to, like, prevent our government from erasing people's identities from scientific data like that is a major fight. So, like, there's so many opportunities right now.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're literally fighting for existence at this point. So yeah, and I appreciate you kind of differentiating between like, hey, there's some people that are exhausted, and being able to take self care isn't is an act of resistance, but for those of us that are a little bit more resourced or nourished, now's the time to step out of that bubble of nourishment and resource. Yeah, yes, awesome. Let me ask you, when you are thinking about individuals who are new to the field of sexuality, who are listening to this podcast, who are getting that a copy, their own copies of good sex, and they're opening it, what are you hoping that they take away, or what are you hoping that they bring from your book into their work?
I hope they bring that inherent worthiness. I hope they read it and see themselves as pleasure worthy, for sure, but inherently worthy of liberation. That means that you recognize that it's not what you do or the roles you have, or how you look or like your money, any of those things that you came into this world worthy, and you will lead this world worthy. But that is so different from entitlement. And sometimes people talk about like entitlement, like worthiness, like they're the same thing and they're not. Nobody owes you anything, especially as it relates to sex, but you are worthy of the things that you desire, and that means that you have to be consensually Invitational about them, as opposed to like, exploitative and extract. And so I just want to leave people that they come into it knowing that they are so worried that they don't have to exploit or extract, that they can build up the systems that will allow them to have access to the things they desire, as opposed to trying to tear other people down and other communities down.
That's powerful work before I let you get on with the rest of your pretty busy day, anything that I haven't asked you, or things that would be helpful for our listeners to know about your work, or as they get to know you, things that I haven't asked, where you're like, I really want to say this,
honestly, no, you asked some great questions, and I'm just happy to be here and talk about the work that I've been doing and the book and everything, but just happy to chop it up with you. Yeah, so
for our listeners is, before you long off, just know that Dr Harkins mentioned several things that we'll definitely be able to post. So one is a link to her newest book, good sex, which will have She also mentioned row house publishing, and we'll be putting some links to row house on the episode page. So keep a good look out for that. Also, there will be a couple of organizations that you might want to check out. One is AXA. That would be an amazing advocacy organization within ACA, which is one of our divisions for counseling, sexology and sexual wellness. So as Dr Harkins was naming some of those advocacy efforts, AXA would be a great place to check out. And as Dr Harkins also mentioned, like check out your state organization. So there are so many efforts that are happening, and as we learned today, you don't have to do them on your own. Dr Harkins, thank you so much for being a guest on the thoughtful counselor, and also just for sharing your wisdom and expertise. Listeners, please take a look at good sex. I promise you the pleasure that you want is within your grasp.
So
thanks again. Dr Harkins and listeners, be well. We'll see you soon.
Thank you. Take good care.
Thanks again for tuning in to the thoughtful counselor today, we hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept, as always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts, wherever you subscribe. You.
