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Eyeway Conversations with Amar Jain | Otter.ai

Eyeway Conversations with Amar Jain

Eyeway Conversations26min

Eyeway Helpdesk

00:08

This podcast is brought to you by Score Foundation.

George Abraham

00:33

Hi, my name is George Abraham and welcome to Eyeway Conversations. My guest today is Amar Jain, a corporate lawyer practicing in Delhi. Hi, Amar, welcome!

Amar Jain

00:45

Glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

George Abraham

00:48

So Amar, you are a corporate lawyer. You might like to tell us a little bit about what corporate law is, what is the kind of work you do in this space, and how did you get interested in this space.

Amar Jain

01:01

Essentially, if you see law over a period of time evolved. Initially, there used to be civil and criminal law which used to be practiced across the courts. And as businesses evolved, the companies evolved, they developed a culture of corporate law, wherein you basically advise companies and businesses around different transactions that you do, different agreements that they enter into. So in a nutshell, that's what corporate law comprises. Of course, with passage of time, it has matured, it has its own areas, for example, banking, and finance, capital markets, debt restructuring, foreign investment to name a few, right. So that's what I do. I am a corporate lawyer. I'm right now into contract management which is essentially reviewing and negotiating agreements and the relevant processes. And I've also worked in banking, finance and capital markets. How did I really get interested into corporate law, to be honest is -a couple of reasons why- because I always thought when I decided of doing law, I always wanted to do something different from litigation, because I thought that would be more suitable for me, given my complete visual impairment as well as given the kind of work that I like to do. So corporate law, that's how and the more I got into the field and the work that people do, corporate law interested me as my first calling.

George Abraham

02:29

Being a blind lawyer, I'm sure a lot of your clients are apprehensive in dealing with you to start with. So how do you build your client base?

Amar Jain

02:40

Building client base, you're right you know, initially when you start, but the good thing about my career was that I started with law firms. So law firm already has good clientele. And I started with India's one of the top most law firms. So already had client base there. But nevertheless, these challenges continue to haunt you. Because when you deal with your counterparty, and when they know about your disability, they have apprehensions. But slowly when you start interacting with them, when when you start teaching them on the calls or in the presentations, and when they see your knowledge, etc. That's how slowly the confidence builds in. So, first step is difficult. But once you take that step, the journey continues.

Eyeway Helpdesk

03:31

If you know of anyone with vision impairment, who needs guidance on living life with blindness, please share the Eyeway national toll free helpline number 1800-532-0469, the number is 1800-532-0469.

George Abraham

03:59

Alongside law, I also see that you are deeply interested in the areas of access, especially access of disability. And it's quite obvious that your interest stems from the fact that you are blind yourself. But I see that you are kind of qualified to work in the technical space when it comes to web accessibility. Law and IT seem to be on the surface far apart. They don't seem to be allied subjects. So how did you actually get qualified to work in the space of web accessibility?

Amar Jain

04:40

That's quite an interesting question. And there's a background to this. So I've always been passionate about technology ever since I got to know about screen readers and computers etc. And alongside when I started my legal journey, I realized there were a lot of things which were inaccessible whether it is day-to-day use apps or whether it is professional specific websites or applications or whether it is educational material, to name a few. And wherever I used to reach out to any business, using my legal background, I always was able to, at least most of the times get patient hearing from the business side because I'm a lawyer, so they wanted to hear me out and wanted to kind of minimize any threat of possible litigation. But when I used to speak with developers, and I used to explain them in a common layman language that my screen reader doesn't work with your website or an app, most of the times, they used to say that what you're saying we understand it, but the kind of effort that will be required to make it accessible will require significant revamp of what we have right now and be you know, 90% of additional effort and which is why it's not currently in our business priority, we will take it up in due course, and that used to end the story. This really used to sort of erk me a lot that despite having capability, I'm not able to access and it's impacting every single aspect of my life, whether it is finances or whether it is something else. And there came a time when I had to file my own income tax returns that I was not able to file. That's how I wrote to teach the Income Tax department and then they said TCS is our vendor and TCS gave me the same kind of response. And this sort of prompted me. First I designed prototype for them as to how the ITR can be made accessible. And then it prompted me to learn about accessibility in depth and also have a certification. Because once you have both sides covered, you're competent to speak not only with the business, but also the developers. And that was really big push for me to become a certified professional in web accessibility from International Association of Accessibility Professionals.

George Abraham

06:57

So from the point of view of accessibility and campaigns that you might have been involved in, what are some of the success stories that you'd like to talk about?

Amar Jain

07:07

One caution or one caveat that I'd like to state before I answer that question is that there have been occasions where there has been significant change, but with passage of time, and with each upgrade, accessibility has always broke. So some of the examples that I will give right now, possibly may not be current or up to date. But there have been times when they have actually worked well. For example, Paytm- there was a time when Paytm was completely unusable and after a lot of pressure building on to the company, even through its investor base, like soft bank, etc. There was a time when Paytm was made quite usable. I wouldn't call it accessible, but quite usable. Again, we went back to a stage where it became inaccessible. And now of course, again, with same intervention, we are working on improving its accessibility, at least it's usable right now. Similarly, there are multiple apps I'm working with right now. We for instance, working with Zomato. I'm working with Swiggy. I'm working in my capacity as a co-founder of an initiative called Vision Accessibility, which also I think has been featured on this podcast. There are other apps where income tax e-filing portal when it was with TCS, we had done some great work, I along with Mr. Mohammad Asid worked together to make things right.

George Abraham

08:35

Just another point on accessibility advocacy. You know, a lot of us blind people do encounter, you know, websites or apps or POS machines and so on, or ATMs or you know, shopping platforms where accessibility is a major issue. What are the common tools that we can use to actually raise our voices and be heard?

Amar Jain

09:05

Often my experience suggests that in India, there are only two three ways that are most effective. One way is that you first reach out to the management of the company. So you first figure out which is the company which operates this particular service or a website, or an app, you figure out who the directors are, and possibly their email addresses through Google search. All of this are possible. And you write to the director saying that we are a customer base and show them as a business case. Don't just say we are person with disability, which is why you need to do it. It's a good gesture. It's the right social thing to do. Because we are no longer talking about social goodwill. We are talking about rights of persons with disabilities. So make this a business case show them if you hear back from them that's the best thing that you can expect. If that doesn't happen, then other way, which is quite persuasive and effective is to reach out to their investors. And again, that information is also available on Google that who are the investors in a particular company and possibly, then figure out their contact details just the way you did for the directors of this company. And if that doesn't work, then I think ultimately you have to write send that send them a legal notice. My experience suggests 99%, after sending the legal notice, you will have businesses at least talk to you on table and understand what your concerns are, whether or not that gets into a resolution mode is a separate discussion. But most likely, you're waiting to get a channel where you can speak to the company and make your point across, and most likely, they will slowly start working with you to resolve the issues. But if that doesn't happen, then I think the best forum that has been working very effectively is Chief Commissioner for Persons with Disability. So if you reach out to them with a proper complaint, with the proper information, they are most happy to resolve most of your grievances.

George Abraham

11:03

Amar, you've also been very interested in policy. What are the areas where you have actually taken up initiatives in policy reform or new policy coming up?

Amar Jain

11:16

Sure. So I think before I even get into what areas have I taken up, it's important to highlight at least my thought process, why I think policy is very important. From a person with disability perspective, given we are constituting only 7% of the population of the world, and and in India, it's around as per the latest NSSO data that came out in 2017-2018 is only around 2% of the Indian population. Of course, I feel that the number is fairly underrepresented. But still, let's go on with that number for now. If you are not even present on paper book, which is your policy, then asking for any facility service, which is legally due as your right, is far more difficult than having a policy in place and showcasing that policy paper and say, hey, I'm entitled to this, that gives you an equal footing to talk to the other side. And say that because I'm part of your policy, it's important for you to think about me as your business consumer, or any kind of service related beneficiary right. Which is why I think working on policy basically solves majority of your problems, then it's only about implementation, which always continues to be constant battle. So when I sort of started my journey as a law student, since then, I had faced policy problems, whether it is access to bank account, whether it has access to the MAT account and access to trading account. So as in when I spotted those opportunities, I started with the financial sector, where I worked with SEBI to issue circulars for stock exchanges on making trading accounts and other facilities available to persons with visual impairment. Similarly, housing finance facility was not being made available to people with visual impairment and other disabilities. So loan facilities on those in that regard. Then access to health insurance continues to be challenged even today despite directions. But that's something we sort of worked for about nine years to make that happen. Similarly, accessible telecom bills from all the telecom providers continue to be a challenge, so worked on that area. So there are a couple of those. And of course, as and when there were opportunities, for example, the latest Bureau of Indian Standards, which came out on making ICT products and services accessible. I contributed to that as well. And the Rights of Persons with Disabilities rules when they were being formulated in 2017, I had contributed specially on the rules governing accessibility. So these are time to time interventions that I have done the policy space.

George Abraham

14:11

As an extension of your work in the space of disability and access. You've also done a lot of speaking. You've done some keynote addresses, you've also been part of leading panel discussions. Would you like to talk about some of them?

Amar Jain

14:27

Sure. So, my way of sensitizing people is twofold if I may put it that way. One is the speaking that you do on stages or in panel discussions. So for example, I was in Bombay with panelists from JP Morgan, Google, etc. on employment opportunities for people with disabilities. And one of the things which corporate sector always says that while we do want to recruit people with disabilities, but we don't find the right skill set, and I was the odd one out there because I come from Hindi medium from blind school. And I did my law in English medium completely, then I did that, and I started working at law firms. And I was first one in back then to be picked up by leading law firms in India. So, you know, the wider that you get the right opportunity and exposure, there is definitely a way for you to perform. And it's really that which kills persons with disabilities, you know, platform to showcase their talent. So, I was on, you know, various panel discussions of those sorts. Then the other thing that I do as part of sensitization is basically do experiential learning sessions. So, for example, I was a keynote speaker for Apple India, in their app accelerator, Bangalore, where I work with around 90 developers for an entire day on how to make their apps accessible and how accessibility should be looked at. We showed them how software's work for iPhone etc, and how audit can be done and how you can figure out accessibility barriers. Similarly, we did something similar to what is called as dialogue in the dark, where we simulated experiences of people with disabilities by blindfolding, quote unquote, normal people, or also possibly, you know, putting earphones in the ears to block their hearing skills and say that now you try to hear the surroundings of your environment or, you know, tying their legs etc, and making them sit on a wheelchair and say, now you need to access this particular space which is inaccessible, just to make them realize the kind of impact inaccessible barriers or inaccessible infrastructure sort of provides or has on the life of a person with disability. So these are the kinds of sessions that are done at multiple places including Lal Bahadur Shastri Academy in Mussoori for IAS lobby, or whether forums like FICA, CII and Apple as I said, and many national law colleges amongst others.

Eyeway Helpdesk

17:24

To support our work with the blind and visually impaired, you can visit the donate page on our website, www.scorefoundation.org.in. Please note, www.scorefoundation.org.in

George Abraham

17:51

Tell me a little bit about your your eye problem. Is this something that was there from childhood or this is something that you acquired on the way?

Amar Jain

18:00

No, I'm born blind. I had the retinal detachment. I was born premature in seven and a half months and due to access oxygen and and my retina got damaged.

George Abraham

18:15

So maybe it would be right for me to ask you just now as to how did your parents respond? And how did they rally around to see you through in life.

Amar Jain

18:26

As I said, I belong to Jodhpur, Rajasthan. When I was born and when my family was bringing me up, there were a lot of societal perceptions that you had to deal with. So obviously, initial years were difficult for the family to understand how to navigate around this challenge. But the good thing was that somebody introduced us to a blind school at a very early stage when I was around three years old. And I think there are two incidents that I would like to share, which helped me and my family build confidence amongst ourselves. My brother is a skates champion. He used to skate both at the district and state level. And I always wanted to learn skating. And my family was very scared of that you know, you should if you wear skates, you will fall or you know, you get injured etc. So one day when my brother was not around and my father was sleeping in the afternoon, mother was doing her own household chores. I just picked up his skates from somewhere, wore it and first I practiced it with the sides of the wall by putting my hand onto the wall and moving with the skating. And then I sort of left the walls support and and skated on my own and after half an hour or one hour, I went into my dad's room and called him to come outside and he got shocked to see me on skates and he said, move it. So I said no. That was the time when they got confidence on me that if we give him support, and if we give him the right kind of atmosphere, because of his determination, he'll be able to do things. And the other incident which sort of changed my life, or which taught me the value of self learning and dignity and self esteem was when I was in my fifth class, maths and science. Especially maths used to be very, very difficult for me, I never got around it. It was one of those subjects which I hated the most. And I said to my dad that if you want to see me educated, you know, you should get me a tutor to teach me all this nonsense maths and science which I don't understand. So he first explained to me that you should do self study and all and I mean, he could afford a tutor, but he didn't want me to develop that habit but I didn't hear it. And I said, no, you either you get me tutor, or I won't study. Yes, my dad, possibly first and the last in his life, he slapped me hard and said if you can't study, then you're better doing nothing. You can only do one thing and the only thing that you can do in your life is to beg. So I'll give you a begging bowl. If you can't study, start begging them from today onwards. And that hit me hard. I said, how dare this man say like this to me. Three days I studied hard and after that, I threw all the books in front of him and say, ask me wherever you want to ask me from. So that kind of taught me the value of self esteem and self learning and dignity. These two incidents really shaped up my early life. My brother has been very keen supporter. The very first introduction of computers to me was done by him, he got to know about narrators somehow. And that's how I got introduced to computers.

George Abraham

21:51

So as a school boy growing up, who put the idea of law into your head?

Amar Jain

21:56

While I was in my 9th or 10th class, and by then the notion which was developed around blind school was that if a person is blind, then you will either become a teacher or a musician. At best, slowly the area of banking was opening up. And I said, I don't want to do either of this, I will do something different. But whatever different thing it could be. It could be as silly as call center operator, but at least I'd like to do that. And that's how we thought, I told my dad, I want to do something different. So he said, I'm more than willing to support you in whatever it requires you to do. So we explored a couple of options, whether it is Hotel Management, BCA, BSC, IT. And finally I decided that, you know, law is something where I can fight for rights of my own and my community, and as well as I can serve the society. So that's how I decided to do law. And that's how my dad had to shut down his business to make sure that he moves with me to Bombay and I get educated.

George Abraham

23:01

Amar, I believe you are married now and a family man. So talk us a little bit about your wife and how you got married. And what is life like today?

Amar Jain

23:14

Oh, so my wife is Meenakshi Chaturvedi, and she works at the DRDO, Civil Lines, Defense Research & Development Organization. One of the things which was very clear in my mind when marriage used to be discussed at home and otherwise was that I want to marry somebody who's blind like me, so that there is better compatibility and better understanding. And I'm glad that I found a like minded partner. I was introduced to Meenakshi through a couple of common friends and then we started talking and slowly the relationship developed and then we spoke about getting together as life partners, with our families, of course there were resistance in the beginning. How would we manage this and that but we made our way through and today life is quite happy.

George Abraham

24:07

So what does Amar Jain enjoy doing apart from corporate law and web accessibility and policy thinking?

Amar Jain

24:17

I love to travel a lot. I love to go to different places, natural places where there is natural beauty, whether it's near water or whether it is you know, something or hilly areas, etc. I love doing that a lot. I'm a very foodie person. So anything which satisfies my delight is something most welcome. I love to explore various traditions and cultures. Wherever I go, I love to eat their traditional regional cuisine to acquaint myself with their culture, and of course, learn about the kind of clothes they wear or the kinds of things they do. I also love to explore a lot with technology in general. So when I'm free, I would like to try new softwares, new apps or new things that can solve potential problems. And also, I'm a singer. So sometimes I do sing and I do play musical instruments.

George Abraham

25:18

Well, Amar, thank you very much to take this time out to speak to us. And it's been a pleasure.

Amar Jain

25:25

Likewise Sir. So just to take you back. Eyeway has been a very good source of pillar of information for me. Ever since when I started my college in 2008, I was introduced to Eyeway through a couple of friends and ever since then, it has been a great strength and source of information and knowledge. So thank you for doing what you're doing.

George Abraham

25:58

This podcast was brought to you by Score Foundation.

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