Voices of Resistance: Conversations with Dr. Autumn Asher BlackDeer

2:46PM Jun 12, 2025

Speakers:

Keywords:

mental health

social work

indigenous communities

queer communities

academic tensions

decolonization

institutional betrayal

community support

vulnerability

teaching strategies

harm reduction

evidence-based practice

resilience

academic violence

faculty challenges

emotional labor

teacher evaluations

marginalized faculty

student feedback

teaching diagnosis

student engagement

learning experience

advocacy

boundaries

mental health

queer trans native

research agenda

social media

Colorado culture

vulnerability

Speaker.

Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.

All right. Hello everyone. Welcome to the thoughtful counselor Podcast. I'm super, super excited today to have Dr black deer with me. I have been following them for, I think, two years now, and slowly adding you to my finger list, because the work you do is excellent, but also just super excited to talk to you about who you are, like, what you're excited about, what you're working on. I'm going to turn of you and just have you introduce yourself to

us. Yeah, well, thanks so much. I'm a likewise fan girl of yours, so I felt like, like, this is great. We'll just, we'll fan out for the next, you know, couple minutes. Yeah, I'm, I'm Autumn Asher black deer. I'm a member of the Southern Cheyenne nation. So our tribe's traditional homelands are here in Denver, Colorado, but we split. And so the Northern Cheyenne nation is up in Montana, and the Southern Cheyenne nation, where I'm from, is now in western Oklahoma, so kind of out near the Panhandle. But yeah, I really am excited to be here. I grew up in a small town in Arkansas, so this is, like, the furthest West I've ever lived the biggest town I've ever lived in, right? Like, I am not a city girl by any stretch of the imagination. But, yeah, I think I describe myself as like a scholar activist. I really don't feel like I get a lot of the benefits of academia that other folks might get right. And so I'm sure we could talk about that as well. So I try to make sure that folks though that like I am very much in community. I'm grounded in community. Everything I do is for my community. And so both indigenous communities and queer communities. I identify as indigi queer. And so I think, you know, both indigeneity and queerness are kind of the lens that I see the world through. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of, you know, we could talk about academic tensions. And like, to me, it's, it's not just a theory, right? Like, this is my life, you know, like, this is how I'm in the world. And so, yeah, I always like, I'm like, I am in academic spaces, but I like, I don't want to fully claim that. So, yeah,

that is so like, I love that you started that way because I was in the office on Sunday to water my plants because I haven't been going during the week. And I have this moment where I stand there and I'm just

like, This is the life I prayed for. Like,

so Tyler. Just like, I just like, I just want to remind us that this is the life we prayed for. That's right, it we're working it out, but this is a dream, right? We Yeah, this is the dream. It's, it's sometimes a rocky dream, but we're still, we're still living the dream. Okay, so tell us, how did you get to social work? So small town life now you're Colorado, yep. Okay, and so why social work? How did you come into social

work? Yeah, you know, I actually wanted to be in journalism. I thought I'd be like, the native Oprah. I was going to, like, read the news. So when I first went to college, I went for journalism and did like, a full year of that, and then I went home during the summer and got a summer job, and my mom worked at an inpatient mental health facility. She was like, the admin person, and they were like, we have a summer program where we were hiring people. And so she got me into the summer program, and it was like, youth that had like, behavioral issues, so they couldn't be home alone all summer, but they weren't, like, fully to the point of needing full hospitalization. So it's basically like a therapeutic day treatment program. And so I did that all summer, and our clinical services director had her licensed clinical social work, and I was like, I want to do what you do. Like, this is so cool. Like, she was like, running stuff and like being with the kids, but then also, like, helping the techs and then meeting with the counselors. And so I was like, that's so cool. Like, that's absolutely what I want to do. So whenever I went back to school in the fall, I changed my major to psychology, because we didn't have, like, a Bachelor's of social program. And so I changed the psychology and then I also transferred. So I kept working for the faci. But I went to work for the inpatient part, and so through there, I've pretty much worked the next, like five years at inpatient mental health facilities, like as a psych tech or a behavioral health tech. Went on to get my master's in social work, and I was working in, I think it was my first year of my MSW program, I had my first like, native professor, native advisor, of course, you know, like, there was one native faculty, and they're like, that's your gonna be your advisor. So, like,

Okay, I know. I'm like, hi, it's me, the only black girl welcome.

Like, who should she go with? I know, but it was great. She ended up being a really great match. So I'm glad that it works, because I'm like, sometimes it doesn't work based off of one identity, access alone, right? And we could talk about that, like now on the faculty side of things, I'm like, bro, but yeah, so my advisor was like, Have you ever thought about getting your P getting your PhD? And I was like, Well, yeah, but I didn't think like about it for a while. But she actually taught my, like, social justice and diversity class, and she wrote that on, like, the final paper that I wrote for the class about and it was about sexual violence against indigenous women, and the more than I kept so we have like a macro track in the program, but nobody really did it. Like it wasn't really an option, you know, it's like, kind of like, yeah, we have like a basement, but like, nobody goes there, you know, yeah. So I didn't really go that. I think maybe if I did, things would have turned differently. But I kept going through the clinical track, and I was like, this is not enough for me. Like, I I am seeing bigger picture issues, and I like, want to talk about them, and, like, understand why, right? And so we ended up started, like, working on applications to PhD programs together, and we like, presented at a couple conferences together, you know? And so she really, like, mentored me and got me ready for a doctoral program in social work. And I actually ended up going to the same school that she was the first native woman to get her PhD in Social Work from that school. And I ended up going when she told me that she was like, I went to Washington. You should go to WashU. And I'm like, I'm not going to go the same place

that you went. And of course, that's going like you you're

all, I'll be damned. And

then they were like, so we have funding. I was like, Okay, well, I'll be there. Like, you will find me there. So, yeah. So then I ended up in in WashU. And then just keep you know, here I am in Denver now, so it's just been social work pretty much all the way since, since working in that inpatient mental health facility and just really seeing like that. Like, people did not have a lot of power, right? Like, clients didn't have a lot of power. Us as techs didn't have a lot of power. The counselors really didn't have a lot, you know, like, because it's like, they would always tell us, like, don't open up issues that you can't help them with, because they're only going to be here maybe a max of two weeks, right? And so they're, you know, the point of that was, like, crisis stabilization, but then most of the stuff that they're coming in for these structural issues, right? Like, especially kids, right? It's like, I can help you learn all the coping skills in the world. But if your parent is gonna, like, beat the tar out of you as soon as you go home, like, yeah, what you know? What are we going to do about that? So it was really like, disenfranchising, I think, like, it was just like, oh, because even I thought, like, Oh, if you if I became the counselor, then I could be the one making a difference. Or, like, I even thought about nursing for a second, because there's, like, you know, psychiatric nurses and but I'm terrible at science. That's not gonna happen. Like, and also blood, I can't do that. Like, I would pass out. So that was not for me.

No, I Yeah, it's, I think it's, it's so interesting how these moments, like come across our timelines in ways that, like divert us right when we think that, oh, like, this is really what I want to do, and so maybe I'm just doing this thing for like, a moment without realizing that, like seeing folks in a way that feels So like stripping of their power, but also of their autonomy, to then be like, Oh, I have this option to change this, and then to realize that we're all working in systems that make us feel very powerful without giving us any actual, like, actionable power, right? And I think about that all the time, like, I've I've students who want to work in inpatient, and I've been on call, I'm similar to you. I was like, Oh, I can't I think I was on call one time when someone, like, really had a crisis, and I was like, Oh, this is not for me, right? Yeah. But I think those moments of just realizing like, Oh, you're doing this work because you want to make a difference in all these ways, and your part is still just as important in everyone else's part. Yeah. Um, so that people see themselves in a different light, but also you see yourself, right? So it's not just like them seeing them, but you're like, oh, like our pathways are crossing in these ways that I'm Hope, hopefully helping you in your journey, but you're teaching me a lot about who I am as a person, as we're also, like, trying to beat the system that we're like, stuck in,

that's for sure. Yeah,

all right, so I'm really excited that you have some critical chops, which I don't think I do, I think right, and I shouldn't know that, because all of us, I feel like, have clinical trials. Like, if you are, I

don't know. I'm always like, I'm not clinical. I'm not clinical. I'm

like, if you are to pass,

if you are colored, you probably have some clinical hours under your belt. And I'm wondering, like, as we're moving into your research and your work, like, how does it, how was it transitioning out of like, this, very like clinical space into like, research, academia. Like, do you feel like it helps influence, or is that? Like, how did you get to my favorite article, which is hashtag social work so white. Like, how did we get from like, inpatient, figuring it out? I think I want to do this job to, like, publishing, researching, writing,

yeah, yeah, that's a good question. It's like, oh my gosh. I always describe, like, my time in, like, inpatient mental health is, like being like, in the trenches, like, that was the stuff, you know, and like, academia is its own thing. But I'm like, okay, but we're not, like, this is not people's lives, right? Like, I'm I don't have to tackle people, right? And then have to go home and, like, debrief about that, right? And all of that sort of thing. So I think it's what I did see a lot of, and like in my internships, a lot too, and in grad school was that, like practitioners that have been there for so long, right? Like, which is what you want, especially you know, in helping professions, turnover is huge, right? Like, people are never there for extended periods of time. But I did my internship in Oklahoma, and there's a lot of people that are like, Yeah, I worked for this organization past 2030, years. I'm like, wow. Like, that's a good sign, I would think. But they were so, like, some people were just so jaded. Like, they were like, like, I remember this one lady was like, how are you gonna, like, teach whenever you don't even know anything? And I was like, oh, like,

wow. Like, so forceful. Susan, yeah, I was just like, Wow.

Thanks so much for that, you know, like, because I'm like, Well, you learn. I mean, I think that's the thing too, to know about, like, doctoral programs, like, they're supposed to teach you, right? Like, yeah, it's you're not supposed to come, like, fully prepared, right? Because, like, what's the point of, like, putting a fully baked cake back in the oven, right? Like, I so, like, whenever I went into the doc program, like, I did not have any, like, research experience. I mean, I had been to like, one, like regional conference with my advisor, and we were supposed to, like CO lead the session, but I pretty much, like, introduced her, and this was, like her jam, like, this was her topic. So she was just like, I never got the mic. And I was like, You go, girl, that's totally fine, which is also a pretty typical academic experience too,

yeah, like, yes,

you're like, we're co teaching, but not really. So it was great. So that's that was, like, my only like experience that I had to put on my like application, right? And I remember the like, director of the Bucha Center, which is the Native American Center at Wash U and then they had one native faculty, which also who became my advisor. No one native faculty, but he was great. I love him very much. But I remember they came to the hotel, like, for interview weekend, and they were like, you say, like, a lot, don't do that. And they said, you know, why do you want to get a PhD? And I'm like, Well, I'm passionate. Just like, passion is not a skill. Don't say that.

Oh my gosh.

Like, I was not prepared, but I knew what I wanted to do. And I was like, if y'all take a chance on me, like, you can teach me the skills. I'm like, I'm obviously good at school, right? Like, yeah, I'm a Virgo. I'm very into, like, my notebooks and my pens, and I'm a good student, right? But I'm like, I don't know how to do research. I don't know how to or even, like, they said that they would probably ask about my low GRE score for math, but then I ended up, like, being the person that taught statistics too. So I'm like, see, tests are done because I'm like, I love, like, stats, but math is not my thing, but stats definitely my thing, right? So it's like, I got in there, and really, I was just there to learn, right? Like, I didn't know about competition. In or, like, all the things that, like, academia thrives on, I had no idea about, right? And so, like, coming from, you know, working in patient, I thought, we're all here because we are passionate about our areas, right? We all had different areas too. Like my doctoral cohort, I think there were 16 of us, which is a monstrous, yeah, like, a lot of people, and they were, like, so competitive, right? Like, I didn't understand. So, like, I remember people were like, you know, making side comments that I went to like, a state school, and I was like, What's a state school? Like, as in every school in a state, like, I don't, like, I didn't understand the, like, private versus state, and, you know, all of the things. And I was just like, I'm just here to, like, get these skills so I can do good work for my people, right? Like, that's, I thought that's what we were all here for. But that was obviously not the case. And so I almost got kicked out of my doc program, actually, my first year, first semester, actually, yeah, there's a guy. There's a couple people actually in my cohort that were, like, low key, or maybe high key, I guess, bullying. Like, there was a list of, like, nicknames that they had for everybody, and, like, we had to have a whole, like, Come to Jesus meeting where, like, the Dean came in and talked to all of us, and it was just a mess, right? So they had been like, so my advisor's last name was Silver Wolf, and he was an older, tall man, right? And they kept making insinuations about they would call him silver fox. And then they were like, oh, you should go in his office and close the door. Blah, blah. Like, really? Like, that's sexual harassment. I mean, fundamentally, right? So it was like the faculty end of the year or end of the quarter, Christmas party, holiday party, right? And so it was end of our first semester. Everybody's drunk. He was so drunk that he actually fell into the koi pond at this event. Just, just, mind you, yeah. And at some point, so I was studying at the time, I was looking at, like, resilience among survivors of sexual violence, like indigenous survivors of sexual violence. And he came up to me and was like, oh, Adam, I wonder if, like, if something happens to you, like, I guess we'll just have to see if you're resilient, huh? Like,

and I'm like, yeah. Like, what kind of veiled threat is that? Like,

yeah, yeah. So me, being me and from Arkansas, right? Like, I grabbed this man up,

yeah, like, people don't fear for their safety enough, I know,

um, excuse me, right? So I snatched him up. I grabbed him by his shirt, and he laughed. So then I grabbed it by the neck, because I was like, you'd have just finished talk to me any kind of way, right? Absolutely. And he was still laughing. So I let him go, but somebody else in my cohort took a picture. Said, Oh, the dean, yeah. So then I get called into the dean's office, and homie also called his family friend, who happened to be an attorney, so they went and met with the dean before I did so that I had to write an apology and, like, get sanctioned by the school and all this other stuff. And they were like, if you don't complete all these things, I had to write an apology to this man. I'm like, I'm so sorry that you were, like, sexually harassing me for an entire semester, and no one did anything about it, right? I did something about it. Yeah, it was wild. So then, like, I think that, like, betrayal, like by the system, by like, just seeing, like, this is what academia is like, this is who they defend. This is like, this is who they protect, right? And this is like, upheld and supported, right? Like, they're like, Oh, well, you know, sometimes we just have to let people be assholes. And I'm like, okay,

yeah, yeah.

Like, that's literally what, like, several admin people told me, and I'm like, okay, cool, cool, cool, cool. And they were like, well, pretty much your only option is like, if I could, like, sue the school for, like, failure to protect and I'm like, I'm from a small town in Arkansas, literally, my mom, my grandma, my sister, all moved up to St Louis to live with me, to support me while I'm getting my doctorate. So, like, in What world do I have money for an attorney? Like, yeah. So it was just like, I think from there that really showed like, this is really what social work is, right? Like, this is because this is a whole Faculty of Social Workers, right? And they were like, yeah, no. I mean, it's regrettable, but you know, like, you can't obviously grab people by the neck. And I'm like, okay, but sure, right? Like, I obviously agree. I wouldn't propose for folks to do that. But also, like, did I physically hurt this man? No, was he also so drunk that he fell in the koi pond later? Yes, right? Like, yeah. And so getting to, like, these are, you know, the whole school reputation is like, we're committed to social justice, right? And then seeing everybody that was like, you know, they're like, being interviewed on the news for different things, and they're like, We're doing good work in St Louis. US, but, like, the actual reputation for the school was very like, like, there's the Del Mar divide, right, and it's right where the school is. And it's like, yeah, they said that, you know, the community is not really welcome on campus, and those flags are meant as deterrence, and all of these sorts of, you know, just really, because I just, I think I was really, maybe naive, I guess, because I, I'm obviously not, like, a Ivy League purebred person, you know, like, this was never supposed to be where I was supposed to be, clearly, right? Like I was, like, I'm just now 30 and finishing my third year as faculty. So, I mean, I was, you know, in my 20s, in the doc program, like I didn't know what the hell I was doing, right, like, and, yeah, I think it was, like, really harming. Like, really harmful. And I had to, like, work through that also while trying to, like, complete the program at the same time. And so I ended up, like, I changed my I changed everything really like, and I remember one of the like, the dean at the time, she was a woman of color, and she was like, you know, the best revenge is success. And I'm like, I hate you should have stood up for me

like that. Just like, Oh, right. Like, I'm like, you were

in a position of power. You could have said, No, we don't believe this. Or, No, I should have, like, I should have done something about him a long time ago. Or, yeah, this whole culture of the school is not safe, right? But no, she was like, let's, let's get him, you know, let's be successful. And I'm like, okay, like, so I distance myself, you know, like, absolutely after that, I'm like, I'm gonna go so I work from home, like, I do my stuff. There's like, a thriving urban indigenous community in St Louis, and so I was like, I'm with my aunties. I'm in community. I'm doing my work. Like, Y'all can have the competition and whatever else, right? And it was actually the so I didn't have any friends in my cohort. It was the cohort that came next. Is my co author, Maria gonorrhea Ocampo, and we were, like, besties, like that is like my soul sister. And it was just like, we ended up being on the same, like, research assistantship positions and, like working on similar projects. And so we have the same, like academic parents, like my advisor is married to Maria's advisor, so we were all kind of like a little academic family, yeah, and yeah. And so we would work on things together, and there was this. So it was around, yeah, it was around 2020 right? Because we were both in the middle of our doc programs, because I started fall of 17, yeah, so it was about my third year, or about to start my third year, whenever everybody's kind of racial justice awakening of 2020. Happened, and I remember like we had met, like we had organized our sort of, like bipoc collective of fellow doc students, because we were teaching at the same time as we were trying to, like, do our own, like, research and figure stuff out. And there are our school started having like town halls, like virtual zoom meetings for us all to come together and figure out what the hell is going on. And we asked them, like, so What are y'all going to do? Because, like, students are coming to us, as you know, marginalized folks saying, what do we do? And they were like, well, we're open to suggestions, like,

your job, yeah? Like, I'm like,

this is your job. Like you were, you're supposed to be leading this, right? And so it was really, from there, we actually wrote two papers at the same time. So one was social work, so why? And it was kind of like, I need to get this off my chest, right? Yeah. I was like, first of all, like, I'm gonna tell you all about yourselves, right? And then the other paper that we wrote the same time was about bipoc doctoral students, and we called it like we deserve to thrive because we're like, hello. Like, y'all are just again, like, if we want any sort of belonging or community. Like, that's been my experience everywhere in higher education, like, we have to create it, right? And so it was wild, like, going from, I think, just, I thought everybody was there to do good work, and that's why we all were, you know, picked and seeing just like, I guess people will call, like, institutional betrayal, or, yeah, institutional harm. And then just multi, I mean, there was a lot more that happened. But, you know, for the sake of brevity, like from there to getting into, you know, pandemic times, and then being like, you're welcome to tell us what we should do, right? We're like, Yeah, yeah. Um, you have all these resources, all of. This, like, administrative power, and you're just like,

let us know. Yeah, like, Oh, hey, oh, since you're here, could you also tell us what we should do? Yeah, it's such a right, like, I think as I'm hearing you talk about this, and it's it hits in such a almost, like affirming, like hostile way of, like, how we share so many similar, like similarities throughout these like academic experiences of not just institutional trail, but like, just the academic violence that comes with like, being any type of, like, non dominant person at all in these spaces. And I think, right, like, several times you're just like, you know, this is Social Work program. Like, I just like, it's a Kelsey program, it's a psychology program, it's a sociology program, right? Like, these stories are shown. I was like, we need to start a podcast. I like to academic, like violence and, like, institutional portrayal of what it's like, right? Like and yes. And then this idea that like in your in your like, in your heaviness of trying to survive an environment that tells you every day that you don't belong there, also trying to like thrive in ways that helps you get out of there, right? So it's like, like, how do you survive that environment where you're just like, I'm just trying to go to class day by day. And then also see yourself outside of a system that, like, wants to tell you that you don't deserve to be there is just another layer of like, like, identity, violence, but then also this feeling of like, oh, how do I continue to stay connected to community when I realize that the people in this community don't want to be with me at all, but also don't

want to see me. Yeah, I don't treat my family like this. Yeah. I was like, What are you saying that I'm like, red flag, yeah,

yeah. And so, yeah, if you said at one point you're talking about, like, like, I love when you said coming to your dot career means you're not supposed to be fully prepared, right? Like, we're you're supposed to be prepared, I guess we're supposed to be figuring this out. And, like, something I remember is, I was in class once and and someone in my cohort was like, Yeah, our program's really competitive. And I remember it's probably similar, right? I've just been like, oh, like, it's competitive. Like, what, Amber, yeah. I was like, What are we? And like, dead, dead face. Looked me in my eyes, and was like, you don't think it's competitive because you're winning. And I was just like, yeah. I was like, Okay, well, I mean this race of one is just trying to, like, make sure my teeth are brushed and I like, what's on, like, like, the the the

requirement

for us to show up as not just people, but like, with our full selves, like hearts on our sleeves at all times while being doctoral students, is crazy. Like,

whole I think so. They're like, they're like, why are you not stressed? Why? Why is this not your whole life? Why are you and I'm like,

we're not supposed to know everything. Like, yeah, yeah, it's okay. We're they're gonna show us right? Or, like, once it's like, academia, you could never make me like you. Like I was like,

yeah, that's but I think that's right, like this the foundation, the idea that, like you said, I came to do good work. I came to do good work for my community. It's like this idea that, like you're there for a period of time to take back what you learn to people who like you want to serve, I think it's that disalignment for people who came in to serve themselves versus those of us who came in to serve others.

Right? Absolutely, and I think too, whenever we're like, that's part of the disconnect of like. I'm not self promoting, like, I'm just trying to share resources. And people are like, Oh, you're bragging. Oh, you're you, you know, you posted about that. I'm like, Yeah, because I'm connected to a lot of people that are not here that need to know this information, right? Like, this is not a degree for me, right? This is like a tool so that I can funnel maybe some of these millions of resources that we have here and make it, make it way back right? Like, yeah, yeah,

yeah. And I'm also just thinking about right, like all the people we lose to that, like the people who don't have community, or don't have at least one person in their corner who's like, Don't let these hoes get you down. Like at least one person who's just like that, that person acting that way is only a reflection of what you bring in them, not what you've brought to them, right? So it's like, how do you help people realize that they deserve to be here when everyone around them is screaming that they

don't

right? And there's like, I think. To about the like, you can see the long term impacts of like, when folks don't have that right, and they're like, like, how we talk about like, not always an identity match works, because there are some people that have, like, been beaten down so long that they're just trying to survive, right? And it's like, I will never fault anybody for that. But also, like, I I can't be expected to move in the same way, like I can't do it right, like you're you, and I me, you know. And I think a lot of times, like being on the faculty side of things and seeing like, like, I again, I also don't like, I'll say all the time, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I have no idea. I don't know what it means to be an adult or to be faculty, or, you know, all this institutional knowledge and the way things go and the questions you're not supposed to ask or whatever. And I'm just like, I have a question, you know,

here she go, Yeah, put your head down, right,

okay? And the backlash for not like moving in those same ways. Of like, we should be grateful to be in the room. We should be, you know, seen and not heard, you know. And we should wear our pantyhose and look our best. And I'm like, what like, there are people over here with, like, their whole bra showing like, and I'm, like, expected to, like, dress my Sunday best, right? Like, the expectations are way different for different folks.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, we're just, we just had what, two weeks ago, a era, which is American Education Research Association, was here in Denver, and super grateful for my sister in law to be here staying at my house, because I think that helped grounded me in, like, a different way. But so, like, very brief synopsis, if you've never been to a era, it's like a era has presidential sessions that are selected by the president of a era. Now, I want to recognize that they are a big deal. They are the highlight. They're like mini keynotes, right? Oh, okay, yeah. They're like mini keynotes, and they're, they're on topics directly connected to the presidential theme, which was, I think, something repair, or something like that this year. And like, I look, I'm not serious about academia. I never will be. I'm just here, you know, like, I just do these things to keep this job that pays for the dog food that for the dog I love.

I'm just here so I won't get fined. Yeah, just here so I won't

get fined, right? I do the conferences so I could put them on my CV, so I could get the credit, so I could keep my merit Right. Like, I'm very much, like, what is the requirements of this job for me to live the life I want to live? And like, everything you just had said, like, had that moment where, like, several, like, elderly black women were just like, you should be so grateful that you got a presidential session. And like, to have more than one, like, is such a big deal. And I was talking to my colleague about it, and she was like, every single time someone says it to you. I could see you in your mind being like, this is not that fight. Like, don't, don't let this person take you somewhere you don't need to be on this day. Oh, shout out to them. My sister in law's like, I am so proud of you the way that you just, like, bit your tongue and you're just like, you know, Dean so and so. Thank you so much for coming right. And it's not that I'm not grateful. It's not those but it's like, you're like, you fought so hard for me to be where I'm at right now, for me to have a presidential session. So, like, right? Like, I shouldn't have to be like, oh, like, bleeding grateful for something that also requires a lot of work, a lot of time, and a lot of effort, and, like, planning to make happen, yeah, they don't send those out. Like, that's the thing, right? I was just like, What a weird place to be for someone to say that, like, they're all it's almost like you should be so grateful, and I'm also shocked that you're the one right? Like, of everyone,

out of all of the full professors, the assistants,

yeah, I didn't know you were successful. And I'm just like, why did you hire me? Like, why are we here, if right? And so I think it's that, of that, like, in between the craziness of grad school and like the trying to figure out like white colleagues and like the underhandedness and like the academic violence, right, there's also like the other side of it, of people who like, look like you, breathe like you, apparently believe in you, who are also like, retelling you like the same like white oppression stories that like people told them as a way of like a comment or like an affirmation, without even realizing that all you're doing is like creating more of a divide between us. You're not actually like bridging the gap,

right? Or they're like, I feel like there's almost like a level of resentment. Of like, he had it so hard, like, you should be so grateful. And I'm like, Yeah, okay, but now that you're in power, you should not be making it hard for me. Like, yeah, you should be making it, like, equitable, like, how you should have been treated, right? Like, yeah, just a thought, you know, yeah.

And then just, like, I don't think people realize the the aftermath of that, right, like the the pieces that are required to be picked up, because I think they themselves forgot what it was like for them to, like, recollect themselves after someone like tore them apart. And, yeah, that's like, I have a love, hate relationship with era in lots of ways, but we took our students to an event where something silver happened, where a scholar was just like, grad students, have it so good now, and you should just be so yeah, yeah, in a room full of black and brown folks. I was like, yeah. And then like, to have to debrief with our students for almost 90 minutes after, like, where's we were like, we brought you to hear these scholars who are well known, black and brown scholars in the profession, who are doing this amazing work. And yeah, my student was just like, yeah. I just remember, dr d, you always say that, like most people write for the world, they hope for, not the world they want to contribute to. Because I'm like, Yeah, because you're like, you're listen. As soon as she said that, I was like, uh, the night is gone. Like.

I was like, Oh, I

was gonna give her some rare gonna hang out, listen to the band. And now I have to make sure my undergrads and grad students who have marginalized Indians do not leave the space thinking that they are not grateful enough, right? Or like the torture of being in graduate school in 2025

Right? Right? Oh my gosh. I used to tell my students I'm like, grad school should be challenging, not traumatic, like we're not, we're not here to do that, but I think a lot of people are, are very much here to do that, like

we're the last thing. This is my opportunity to

give back the mentorship that was given to me. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. You heal. Help. You heal. Go heal.

I or, yeah. My sister in law was always like, Who hurt you? I was like, you can't say that to people. She's an ED psychologist. So I'm like, you really can't say that's people,

because then they think that you're imagine, if we could imagine, we just had, like, a little, like, flag that we raised at faculty meetings who hurt you right? Just

like, take, take, like, the velcro off your sweatshirt, put a new one on. You're just like, something's happening here. I don't, I don't know what it is, some hurt feeling, something that requires a little more than therapy. But who am I? So as we're talking right about this, the mentorship, the violence, the craziness, right? And I know you're teaching a super cool class right now, yeah. And so let's kind of transition a little bit into what is, what has teaching been like for you now that you're like, the person we're all looking to for guidance, and, yeah, triumph.

Oh my gosh. I think I feel like a lot of people don't know, like, how much I get my ass kicked, like, as a professor, like, we take a lot of L's, and I feel like it's not great to talk about, or people are like, you know, we don't want it, because I would never want to, like, disparage students, or be like these mofo, you know, like, I don't think that, right. Like, I've obviously, like, I'm invested in their learning journeys. But I do think that, like, there are, you know, we've talked about this too, about the the systems. I would say bureaucracy is a poor support or a poor substitute for community. And these like things that are built into the bureaucracy, like anonymous course evaluations, are not built for community, right? Because for me, I I try to teach in a very relational way. I try to create the atmosphere. There's a indigenous scholar, Dr Amanda cheremiah. She talks about her pedagogy as like her grandma's kitchen table, right? And just thinking about creating that space where folks can eat and share and, you know, poke fun and be vulnerable, but you're also learning, right? And thinking about, like, yeah, some of my best life lessons have came from, you know, Sunday dinner, Sunday brunch, right? Like, all sitting at the table, and there's no like, point at dinner where we would ever be handed an anonymous sleep of paper and just like, eviscerate one another, you know, like, and I almost feel like that is the expectation for evaluations, right? Or even, like, I try to build in a lot of like, processing space and reflection, and I think a lot of times students are so used to like producing, like a reading reflection, and it's almost still like, it's an academic reflection. It's not like a processing like, where did that? And in your body. How is that, you know? How are you making sense of this, right? And so it's weird, because I think that you know, in classes, so you know, for I'll just go back and say, Everybody always tells you, like, as a marginalized faculty member, don't teach diversity classes, right? Yeah, don't do it, don't do it. And I'm like, okay, but who's going to

you little Rubble, you I was like, done, don't you don't have to tell me twice. I

was for a minute. I did, like, research. So my, that's my, like, my main baby is evidence for practice, like social work research, and then I did bio stats for a little bit, and then now I have the mental health and substance use policy, so still mostly, but I'm like, again, like, how we saw, like, talked at the beginning, like, This is who I am. Like, yeah, I cannot, like, just divorce myself from the content and be like, and this is how we do research, you know. Like, I'm like, That's my professor. Voice, like, no. I'm just like, yeah. Like, this is how I teach, too. I'm just like, first of all, colonialism ruined everything, and we're gonna talk about it, right? Yeah. And so, like, it's in every class. Like, this is, this is who I am, 100% of the time, like, I don't have a professor me or whatever. Like, you're gonna get all of this, like, Southern Cheyenne from Arkansas, you know? Yeah, absolutely, this is me, and it's, I think that's maybe because I don't have a professor voice, right? Like, I often, like, read course evaluations. And I'm like, Would y'all say this if I was like, an older white dude, like, if I was, like, my same age, but if I was a white woman, like, I think I would be that, like, cool white woman, you know? Like, you'll be like, Oh, she's hip, you know, yeah. But, like, as an indigenous person, they're like, she's like, it's not, it does like the the it works for some people, but I think I really am like, not what people think a professor looks like or talks like, or how they envision learning experiences. And so whenever we get to, you know, challenging, challenging white supremacy, challenging colonialism, all of these things that are also baked into our profession, right? Which is another part of social work. So why? Because I'm like, like, we're all brought up in the system, so we all need to decolonize, because, literally, we're only limited to the tools that were provided, right? Yeah. So, yeah. So like, I have decolonial like, I decolonize the whole evidence for practice class, and we start with like, worldviews and ways of knowing. So I'm like, Y'all are not ready to ask a research question. Y'all need to step back and be like, Who the heck am I right? Like, how do I even see the world? What is my positionality, right? Or, like, the mental health and substance use class used to be all about like, history, and they're like, like, it was just from yesteryear. And then there was one week on like, controversies, and that's where harm reduction was. And I'm like, controversies, like, what? Like, yeah, so I read it that whole class, right, centered harm reduction. I'm like, Okay, now let's look at the actual history of like, community care, and then we can get to policy, and then we can see, like, where our profession actually is right. And so now I have taught the diversity one on one class of like, power, privilege and oppression, and then this is the class that I'm teaching now. Is the like, it's an elective, like it's a voluntary elective. They're not subject to this, you know? Yeah. But it's meant to be like, the next class after power, privilege and oppression, about disrupting your privilege, and everything about it, I think, is so different than what we have built into this sort of, like, academic expectation of, like, yes, there are readings, but we're going to process them together. And, like, there are weekly reflections, but it's not like I read this and they summarize this and have a bunch of citations, like, that's not what we're asking for. Like, it's really meant to be, like, I am deeply in this journey with you, and like, I'm gonna meet you where you're at and give you, like, feedback, ask you questions, and have you maybe come back with even more questions, right? And that's like, where the learning happens. Like, you're supposed to wrestle with these ideas, and that's antithetical to everything that we've done so far in the academy, right? Like we're supposed to produce and perform and have nice, neat, crisp answers, and it's like, I'm asking you to dwell with the questions and sit in that uncomfortability and the backlash.

Yeah, right. Like this. This idea that in so many ways we can make mostly white folks right, like, uncomfortable in ways they never realized they could be uncomfortable in requires a different level of vulnerability that people are not ready for. And like. Their like, private bedroom time, let alone with an audience, right? Like it I, like, I teach group counseling, and often, like, one of my students was like, well, if a group member is really upset, you, like, pull them aside and it's like, no, like, you trust in their autonomy to speak up and to advocate for themselves and to let the group know what's going on, right? But we also have to hold a lot of space to realize that like, therapy isn't the hard part. The the work of watching someone witness your like, deepest, darkest moments is is the hard part, right? Like, it's not the like, oh, this happened to me in my childhood. It's like, this happened to me, and I realized that I'm like, have never like, forgiven myself for something I had no control over. And now this is where it's like the tears and like the heartache, or like the the loss of a younger self, like watching someone realize that you're processing that that's actually what makes therapy hard, not not the showing up every day just to be like, this was my day. And like, like, my coffee was, yeah, like, that's not right. And like, that's some of it, because sometimes people need to tell the little stuff to get to the big stuff. But like, it's the witnessing part that, like, is so can feel so heavy. And I think people want to do this work without feeling that themselves.

Oh, bars

feature glass.

I just like, I've been resisting there, like, so this is a paper

right here. Like, we could write about this. Yeah, that's really, I'm like, the podcast is over. Y'all could keep listening, I guess, but now we're just gonna have, like, US time, and you're starting to stay, um, yeah, I just think, right? And I think about, like, how much work and effort and soul that goes into you, like believing in your students, enough to want to change the class, right? And I think about that, like in my own process of changing diagnosis, I was like, Oh, I can't teach it how my colleagues teach it. I have to teach it a completely different way. So, right? And even in conversations of like harm reduction, I'm just like, Yeah, well, some would say that there is no harm reduction at all. At addictions, you either are fully sober, like, never, always accidents at all. Or some folks, like, on the other side of us are, like, sometimes psychedelics is the answer,

right? And like, are you okay with that? Yeah, I'm

just like, right? And so even that, like, how do you get folks to realize that this westernized way of life is what's killing us, and

it's killing them too? Like, they have no idea how to be in community, right? Like, yeah, I see I like people all the time are like, yeah, academics really have no idea how to be in community. And I'm like, Well, yeah, because all they're taught is to, like, how to take each other down, right? Like, yeah, well, I'm gonna, like, you know, annihilate this person after their conference presentation, or I'm gonna write a rebuttal to their article. And I'm like, Yeah, you can do that. Like, there are people that, like, I like, love deeply, but, like, fundamentally, ideologically, yeah, not a match. Like, yeah, but I still, like, cherish them as a person, and I wouldn't, like, cancel them, right? But like, I feel like the our students have no practice or space to really practice that in class either. Because I'm like, yeah, how do you teach students? Like, no, we're practicing the art of holding space right now, right? Like, that's why I'm not, like, one of the like feedback thing was, like, Y'all don't, like, call on us. Like, and I'm like, yeah, like, I don't know. Like, that. This is not like, Okay, thank you so much for sharing that. And now, Karen, what would you like to say? Like, that's not how it works, right? Like, are you going to do that in group sessions and be like, Oh, okay, great. So your school, like, your kids struggling in school, and, you know, Peter, how do you feel about that? Like, yeah, that, no, that's not how it works, right? Like, you don't. If you feel like you need to share, you hadn't. Can advocate for yourself and speak up and share, but like, Yeah, I can't. Like, there's not, like a PowerPoint of like, 123, when to know when to share, when to shut up. You know? Like, yeah, you have to practice and like, will it be right all the time? No, but like, I think that whenever you said about vulnerability, I remember one of my first course evaluations was, like, the way that the professor talks about things feels really aspirational, but I don't know how I would ever get there. And I'm like, okay, like, but you're, I'm not asking you to be me, right? Or to, like, yeah, to do, to do things, how I do it? Like, even talking about, like, decolonization. I'm like, that's just one pathway. Like, if that works for your brain, great, but if it doesn't, like. Like, there's queer theory, there's abolition, right? There's, you know, all of these other, you know, ways to liberation that we can use. So, like, find your lane. Like, I'm not asking you to talk like a brown queer woman from Arkansas, right?

That'd be weird. That's not the goal. Yeah,

yeah. It's such a so I'm an R EBT therapist or astral emotive behavioral therapy. And when I when I teach group counseling, I always talk to them about how I learned theory, very different. So my master's program was, like, very traditional, very two years straight through, full time. But in our first year, they were like, you have to see a client and like, you eventually we have five clients. You have to have five theories with five clients. Yeah. So it's like, how do you actually really know theory or not? Just, like, read about it, and then, like, you're like, Oh, I think I think I got person centered. Let's go. It was like, yeah. They're like, No, this is your existential client. Are you able to conceptualize them and ask questions and like, put right. So it helped me learn, yeah, right. It helped me learn theory in a very different way. And in our program here at CU doesn't teach theory that way. But I bring up theory a lot in counseling, because I have especially group counseling students are like, how did you how did you get to that question? And I'm like, I conceptualize my whole entire world through irrational thoughts, right? So it's like, my theory is how I conceptualize the world around me. It's how I answer my own questions, it's how I answer other people's questions. And I'm starting to see now students kind of understand that the power of theory is really like a road map, right? So it's like, if you're abolitionist or if you are decolonial, right? Like, are you that way in every single aspect of your life? Are you only like that in, like, your 45 minute sessions, right? And so it's like, which? What is it? And so even that idea that, like you would know something so intimately that you don't, you don't have to worry about the next question, because your theory will bring the question to you right, right? And so I often think about that as well. It's like this idea of like, like, what you said earlier, like you have to know yourself before you can ask your research question. Like, is so hard for them, because then it's like people who are not us are like, just ask the question that comes to mind, and they're just like, crickets, like, they're just like, right? And I just like, What about intuition? Let's talk about like, how are you feeling? Like, how are you showing up in the room? Like, and I think too often we separate it, and we're just like, oh, that's like, the therapy client side. This is just, like, the teaching of it. But I'm like, if we're not teaching them how to sit in discomfort, especially their own discomfort, then, like, why do we have the expectation that they can do that when they're sitting across from someone like, you can't, you can't even sit with me. You can't sit with someone else. Yeah? And

I'm like, and we're not even asking you to sit with yourself, yeah? Like, because,

baby, that if you wanna talk about existential crisis, if we make people sit with themselves, it's a wrap, it's a wrap. Yeah,

yeah. And even I had Yes, one of my students, he was like, he's like, how did you know that was your theory? And I was like, I had a full mental breakdown in the middle of my master's program. And I was like, am I going to irrationally think myself through every life decision I make? Or is, am I actually going to trust that I know what I'm doing? And I was like, I do not recommend there's lots of crying, there's lots of crying, there's lots of like, is this the life for me? But now I'm like, I never, never doubt a choice, right? So it's like, even understanding that like that looks so different for like, your classroom, your your community, your your coursework, your client work, when you're so secure in yourself, and then that's when you realize that that's actually why people hate you, because you're so thank you yourself.

Thank you. It really is I'm like, I used to think so I have, you know, more academic harm as we do, you know, yeah, as we continue on. And I remember, like, last year just thinking so much of like, what did I do? Or, like, what is it about me that like, brings that out of people and, or, you know, this person, and it was like, it's not on me, right? Like, that's a projection of whatever their unhealed shit is that they need to get over, right? But I'm like, No, I actually, I do know myself, and I do know that, like, if I was behaving in a way that is not right, like I've that I have community people that would Yank me out the club and be like, let's sit down and go through this right? And I think it was like calling for accountability and calling for repair that like, and it kept getting shut down and shut down. And then it was also like, turned against me, of like, you know, the quote by Sarah Ahmed, where she. Says, like, when you expose a problem, you pose a problem. And I'm like, oh, yeah, people don't like that. And, you know, again, me naive thinking like, oh well, we're all here to, like, be in a room together and figure out how we can do things better. No, no, no. That's like, people have very different agendas, like, and a lot of people are like, No, that's that's actually not what we're here to do. I'm here to be in power and to have my agenda and to do what I want to do, and if you're in the way, I'm going to make sure that you're not in the way, right? Like, but it's not on, yeah, I remember like, thinking about, you know, my own healing journey, and thinking like, No, I'm not responsible for for them to heal, right? Like I I don't need to shrink myself so that they feel better.

Period, yeah, yeah, it's such a right. And I think also it's like when you are privileged not to have people around you who want to pour into you just as you are you when you're like, fallible and messy and like all of those things, right? It's, it feels natural to ask like, oh, what it what is it about me when you realize that, like, not everyone is willing to do that, right? Because it's like, oh, I'm in these spaces where it's like, I would do that for anyone. Why wouldn't people do that for me? And I really like what you said about realizing, oh, it can be me, because the people who mentor me, who value me, who support me, would make sure that I, like, came corrected, right, right? And so it's like, that's something I tell my friend all the time when, like, we have a couple of colleagues who are just wild and free in lots of harmful ways. And we're always like, who mentors them. They're always like, who tells them that what they're doing is chaos. Like, who looks them into their soul and is like, what is wrong with you? Right? Like, and also like in such a way, right? Like, it's not just the act of like, having someone tell you that what you're doing is not okay. It's also the Act of, like, trusting that person, because you have to trust someone to receive that message. And I'm really starting to think that there aren't enough people, like, I wouldn't even say in community, who just have like, one bestie who isn't, like, on the same shit. Like, right? Who's like, yeah, you're doing the good stuff if you're, like, making people cry every day. Like, who is it like, Why? Why do you have to shrink others to build yourself up? Like, we need that person to come

Yeah, that's what I'm

saying. Like, they have their, like, whole I call them like, being girls, like, little mean girl coalitions. It's like, Y'all all have your own little lunch table and so before. And it's also like, whenever we think about, like, the the system, right? And they're like, Oh, well, if you just report it to the the next person. I'm like, Okay, well, they're best friends with them. So like, how am I going to report that so and so's harming me? Whenever y'all go on, like, daily walks together, like, and I'm just supposed to trust that they I haven't already told you what they think about me, and, you know, like, yeah, that's they're insulated, right? And that's why we never, that's another paper too, about, like, why we never get anywhere, yeah,

especially at the end of the day, universities are trying to protect themselves, so even it's like they'll do a better job getting rid of someone before they will address it, address the problem, right? Like, they'll get rid of them. Yeah, yeah. So in your class right now, you said it's online, so I know that provides a different community development of like, not necessarily seeing people are being involved in that aspect. But I'm curious, like, for you, as you're moving forward and bringing your whole self into these conversations, like, how do you see yourself after this course? Like, what comes next for you? Oh,

goodness with the toughness. Okay, sorry,

I could ask you about Twitter.

Okay, by Twitter. I'm so over Twitter. No, I think it's good. It's good. I think whenever we first started teaching the class, I have a co instructor, and we were talking, and I was like, I don't think I realized how, like, exhausted I would be after this, like, because I haven't taught in a minute, but the classes that I do normally teach, it's not as much like emotional labor, right? And so, like, afterwards I really have to go lay down right? Like, I'm just like, Go lay down somewhere. And I think, like, whenever I'm thinking about, like, so we just had midterms, so we're, like, halfway through the class right now, and I really think that, like, I need to go sit down somewhere. Yeah, I so the reason that the class is online is that my mom passed away at the end of last year, and I had winter quarter off. I wasn't teaching any classes, and then this was supposed to be my last class for the year, in spring quarter, because we're on the friggin 1010, week system. And I met with the dean, and I was. Like, I honestly, like, wanted to quit, like, I don't know what I'm doing here. People don't like me. My mom's dead, you know, like, I don't know what to do. And she's also, like a Griever, like she said that she lost her mom during her doc program. So I think she, like, sees a little bit of herself in me, which I was really grateful for, because every other admin person I've met has like, thrown the book at me, you know, so so it was one, like, really affirming, but she also like, made it possible for me to be virtual this last quarter. And so like, being able to, like, not have to go to campus and not have to be in person for faculty meetings, and, like, just have time to really grieve, like, I could not tell you, like, anything that happened to me from like, January to March, like, I have absolutely no memory, right? Like, and then we started teaching this class the beginning of April, so for me, like really having time to grieve, and then getting back into teaching was such a, like, emotionally heavy class, I'm like, wow. Like, this is a lot. This is really a lot. But I like, I have this, like, I want to return to work, whatever that looks like, you know, I have no idea. And I'm still thinking about like, because I really don't like, I don't know how to be in the world without my mom, you know, like, I still have no clue, like, what that's supposed to look like, or what, you know, like, people are talking, you know, talk about our purpose, or, like, how we talk, like, this is our dream. And I'm like, Yeah, this was my dream. Like, this was, like, my mom posted whenever I got this job, that she was like, Autumn is going to her dream job. Like, this is her dream school. And I'm like, yeah, like, it was, and now I'm like, Well, now, but you know, like, yeah, like, I don't, I don't know. Like, I just had my third year review, and I'm like, do you stay? Do you go, do you, you know, but then the world is not like, oh, it go, where, right, like, and they talk about, you know, sticking with the devil that you know, and all those sorts of things. And I'm like, I really don't know. I think, yeah, I think my what's next is really, to just go sit down somewhere like, and, and just, you know, who, I don't know if that really answers the question,

no. I mean, for me, yes, right? Like, I think especially, yeah, because it's like, it's like, what it'll be 22 days since my brother passed away, right? And I'm just like, there has to be a point where you stop counting, right? And my mom passed away when I was a doc student as well. And so it's like these moments of like, this morning, of being like, Oh, I've never, I was never meant to be serious about academia. Because it's like, I know that so much exists outside of the space, right, of the things that actually define us and the people who make us who we are, and the people like, the reason we actually show up as we are. And so it's like, I like, I mean, within hours of finding out, it's like, I've had an away message on my email since, and I've only been responding to people I want to respond to, and I've only been holding space with my students because it's like, we're going to finish this semester because we started this semester together, yeah? But everyone else can, like, kick rocks, right? That's right. And I think this is the, this is the weird position we're put in, especially as, like, assistant professors and assistant faculty, where it's like, these are supposed to be your most productive years, or blah, blah, blah, whatever, to be like, Oh, if I'm going to make if I'm going to survive this long term, I this is, this cannot be the priority, priority, right now, right? Like, if I'm going to survive this after this quarter, like, if I'm actually going to return to work, then this can't be, this can't be the focus right now, this can't be the most important thing. And, I mean, I feel like all of our ancestors would be like, Yes, girl, please sit down. Like, like, sit down, because we, we would like to sit down, right? So, it's also that part, right? So it's like, yeah, I think the vulnerability offer it in, and the silent permission for yourself, but also others listening. Of like, Hey, it's okay to give it your best shot, and then like, take the summer, or like, put your head down, or like, do something that doesn't require you to arrive in a performance that, like you were never meant to perform. Mm,

that's good. I appreciate that. Yeah, take that. I will take that. Because I'm like, Yeah, I feel like, and I'm such a planner, too, it's not a comfortable place to be, you know. So, like, I would love to know where I'm going. What's, you know, what's next? What's next? What's the next goal where, you know, what's the next paper? What am I? I'm like, I don't want to just like, I think that's they say. Like, whenever someone passes, you're either like, a doer or a feeler. And so, like, I remember when my mom was still in hospice, I like, rearrange, like, half of our house. Like, I was like, could not sit down and. And my partner, Jess, she was like, I knew I knew what you were doing. So I was like, I was gonna give you some time, but I knew that at some point, like, you would sit down and and that would be it. And it was like, I I think maybe that's what happened in January. I think I sat down and I didn't get up for a long time, like, and I think I just switched back and forth between doing and feeling. And so right now I'm doing, you know, with the class and teaching, and the kids are still in school, but then now it's like, no, I want to just lay down somewhere, like, just, just be, you know?

Well, I wonder, right? Like, for me, it's also, it's like, the being part of it, but it's like, it's the, it's the permission to tell us that we also don't have to pour to others, right? Like, I think as educators, we spend so much time wanting better for our communities that we make sure we pour everything into these students so that our students can treat our communities better, right? Like, yeah, like, the students are such a huge part of why I love the work I do, but they're also like, the interim, like the the goal is that i i show you so much love and kindness and grace of like, what it is to have a black professor who you've probably never had one before, right? That, like every client that reminds you a little bit of me, you then treat them the same way, right? And so it's like, even that requires, like, that's that's so beyond the emotional labor of just like the PowerPoint or, like the reflection questions. It's the moment of just being like, Hey, it's okay to give yourself grace, and I can give you grace and, like, turning in something late, or it's like, even if it's a lot for me, right? It's, it's that negotiation that I don't think students realize we're doing every day when they like write their teacher evaluations about inflex being inflexible, right? And so I think also that, like, it's not just the day to day, class to class, week to week. It's also the like reminder that at the end of this, regardless of everything we personally have going on, we're still going to be evaluated for how we showed up, even if people didn't know what we had going on personally,

yeah, yeah. And it's like,

I just don't understand. I think maybe it's another like, disconnect, of like, I would never like, just, it's, it reminds me of like, of of Twitter, right? Of the like, anonymity, a non anonymity, anonymousness, whatever, of like, oh, this person has no idea who I am, so I can just, like, tell them what you know, what I think about them. And I'm like, I would never do that, right? Like, but we know, like, all the data, right? It's like marginalized faculty get, like, eviscerated in course evaluations, for doing what we're supposed to be doing, for challenging our students, for, you know, teaching them different ways of knowing and being right. And it's like, okay, okay, yeah, I hope that you wouldn't do that to your client right. Like, I hope that if your client said that, you know, something didn't land well for them, that you wouldn't like, just let them have it, you know,

yeah, yeah. I also think great, like, something that my colleague Scott tells me a lot is teach to those who want to learn, right? And so it's like, yeah, and I think it is, I'm teaching diagnosis this summer, which was like, you know, poor timing with me saying yes, and then life. But I was frustrated because my colleague is also teaching diagnosis, and there's like, 20 people, 25 people in her class with a wait list, and there's only 10 in mine, yeah. And I was like, for at first, I was like, Am I just mad about the money? Because we get paid more obviously, if our class has more students in it, because, you know, academia, yeah. But then I just had this thought, right? My My colleague Carlos, was like, also, just think about, like, those are the 10 students who actually want to be actually want to be with you this summer. Yeah, right. And so, like, what does that look like, right? Like, what does it look like to have students who actually want to show up with you in space and time, and, like, be challenged, because they know that's what's going to happen. And so I also think about that as well, like, the students, right? Like, like, for the students who are listening, who don't fill out teacher evaluations, who love us. This is why we need

you, because

are uncomfortable with themselves, are the ones who leave like, the loudest

feedback, yeah, oh, that's good. Yeah, you're right. I was like, there were, like, a couple, and I'm trying to, like, you know, process everything like myself, you know, and I'm just like, ah, but then like that, you could see that there are, like, the few that I'm like, No, it's working like they're like, they're having those realizations right then, right? Or like people that you meet outside of class that they don't fill out the evaluation because they're getting their needs met because they. Like, they want to show up, you know, they want it to work. So they're not, like, Yeah, I'm just going to sit back and like, wait, and if it doesn't cool, if it does what you know, so you're right, it's like, and that's why I think too, like we we create the space together, right? And if you're not showing up authentically, then you're not going to get what you need right. Like, you have to be in it, and the folks that are in it are getting it, and the folks that are on the sidelines, right? Like the freaking Brene Brown quote, right? If you're not in here getting your ass kicked, I'm not interested in your feedback. Like, damn it not, but like,

that was the best like,

rendition of, like, being in in the arena. That was like, Yeah, that was, that was cultured, ethnic version I've heard, and I am going to put that on my wall now, because that is obviously better than the other one. Okay, so the last question I always have as we're getting low on time is, what is one thing you would tell students listening to your episode right now?

Oh, what would I

tell students listening to the depths of right now. Hi,

it's me, yeah girl, oh my gosh, thanks for coming. Subscribe to the channel. Our

podcast is coming next. I just feel it happening. Yeah, okay. Excellent. Okay,

giveaway, yes, one thing. Here we go.

If I could tell students something right now, I would say, really, ask for what you need. Ask for what you need. I think a lot of times like, folks are saying, like like, we are so, like, taught to, like, apologize for everything, right? Like, like, I'm so sorry to email you after class. I'm so sorry to stay after class to ask a question. I'm, you know, I'm like, no, no. Like, this is your learning experience. This is your time to, like, ask for what you need, right? If you, like, want more space to talk about something great. Like, and I think folks that are like, hopefully you have educators that are, you know, willing to pivot and, you know, do things that are like, because I'm like, I'm here for you, right? Like, I know this content, y'all aren't here for me, right? Like, this isn't I'd be here regardless, right? But if you, you know, want some more processing time, or want us to do something different, right? Like, I think that it's, it's meant to feel like a disempowering situation where you're just supposed to, you know, get what you get, and don't throw food, right? And it's like, no, like, ask for what you need. Like, really, and if, if they can't, right? Like, I I remember one of my, one of my other besties from the doc program, she's in the cohort above me, so I had Bessie above and below, and no one in between,

and no one worthy, no one worthy. Yeah, that's right,

that's right. Like y'all haters, but the cohort above me, she would say that one of her advisors told her that, like, you should always, like, just, just email people, right? Like, you know, in academia, we're taught to, like, there are, you know, people that you think are so cool and you would want to work with, and, you know, the least you could do is just send an email and if they don't respond, like, that's on them if they want to be a monster, you know. And I think that about grad school, about undergrad, right? About higher education, period. It's like, all you have to do is just send out the thing, and it's not on you how they respond, right? Which is also another lesson for boundaries too, that I'm personally working on, right? Like it's on me to set the boundary, but it's not on me for how people respond to set boundary, right? So just ask advocate for yourself and yeah, the the worst that they could do is say no or not respond, you know. But again, that's on them. So because we're taught to shrink and silence ourselves, and we don't need to do that,

like, Yeah, we really don't. Because I'm like, Yeah,

I want to know. Like, I ask questions right now, like, why do we do this? Who, who decided that

I know, I mean, that's how you're here. I was like, Hey, girl, that's right. Million followers. Will you please just talk to me for

30 minutes? Of course, of course. Because there's like so many people. There's like people that send you like, their like, random self published book about their like connection to water. And I'm like, whatever

my inner social anxiety. No, there's just, yeah,

I know. Oh, I like, there's, there's some interesting folks that reach out. But I definitely, I was so excited whatever you did. I was like, Oh my gosh. I had the most, like, awkward, most professional banner. I was like, Hello, Dr, black deer. How are you today?

I was like, Am I really sitting this when she's like, liked my like selfies, what is going on? Yeah, yeah. I love that advice. I think it's right. I think right now, especially with everything happening in the world and for folks personally, I think that more than anything right, it's like, ask for what you need and be okay with showing up authentically, and then people who want to take you as you are will like everyone else doesn't matter. Yeah, right, no, this was so nice. Hang out here all day. Like we're not to do this again. I'm not going to convince to a podcast, because we're actually very busy, but free time, I know, like in the interim of all the stuff we're not doing, we'll also get something else going. Um, so where, what are you up to next? So I know we talked about rest, so rest could be the answer. No pressure. But if you are doing stuff that's coming up, either this summer or later on, where can people find you? Connect with you, reach out to you.

Yeah, well, I'm always probably oversharing on the internet, so you can find me live, processing my grief any day, on Instagram, at Doctor black deer, and on LinkedIn. I'm trying to be on blue sky, but it's not. It's not, it's not hidden as much as I am, yeah, it doesn't really feel like it for me, same for threads, just like, Yeah, but I that's kind of how I approach the internet anyways. I just, like, talk my stuff, and some people like that, and some people don't like that's on them, right? I'm like, this is just being like, live action in my brain right now. So, yeah, so I think what's coming up for me, I am trying to focus more on, like, building, like, my research agenda around queer, trans and Two Spirit, native folks and, like, mental health. And so I have some, you know, projects in the works, and have a lot of startup funds that I need to use, otherwise the university is going to take them back.

Like, oh, I don't know that was the thing. It is, the time is now spend that one. I

thought I was like, being frugal. And they're like, yeah, no, yeah. Like, yeah, get it going. So I'm like, Okay, well, I guess I'll be spending money this summer. Yeah, okay, so I'll be spending the university's money this summer, but yeah, just, I think folks can always email me if they want to talk about stuff. I'm pretty I'm pretty responsive, unless you, like, send me your weird self published manuscript about seven water ceremonies as a white person. It was weird. It was really weird. Like, Oh, that

kind of does have like, a little bit of a kick to it, but you miss me with, like, the white part,

yeah, the like, the creepy, like, I gave birth to my drum and, and I'm like,

okay, see, this is I too, have

questions People in Colorado.

Colorado really is an interesting place. Okay? Maybe a summer podcast. Maybe we process our grief, talk about all the weirdness that Clara has to offer,

casual dress code.

Listen,

listen the way that Birkenstocks are my favorite, but not in every scenario. Is okay,

winter boots with summer dresses and the REI jacket.

I know. Yeah, wow. Why culture? Why that's why Colorado culture? It's a culture within a culture, guess. So it's, it's a, I it's like, it's like camping, but flowy,

you're so right. It's like, ready to camp at any moment, at

any time it could rain or there could be mud. But I also am ready for rooftop bar.

Yeah, see, see, okay, so from the office

on the way, yeah, my feet of horse, I don't know. I just, I just, I just, I just want people to live their best lives. And so if I could help you right, if I could help add some cultural context to your story, please let us know if you have, uh, I guess, if you have a title for our new podcast, let us know, yes, and we'll figure that out. Jump in the comments. Uh, like subscribe and. My editor is going to be like, This is so DISA because this is usually how all the episodes go.

So yes, I'm glad I could,

yes, this is wonderful. It's exactly what I needed on this day in May, on a rainy, dimmer day, I just want to thank you again for sharing with us, being with us. Bossa, leading by vulnerability, which I know is not easy to do, and I'm super grateful for um. Yeah. So if you like this episode, please, please, please go follow autumn on Instagram, maybe also blue sky, maybe threads. We'll see hit or miss um. But for sure, reach out. There will be lots of stuff coming in the future. I'm so excited to share them with you. Be here with you. I'm grateful to have you in my community. Yeah, well, that's it. I mean, I hope you're having a great day or night or whenever you're listening to this. I hope it brings you the joy you so rightly deserve. We'll see you in the next episode.

Thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept, as always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe. You.