Welcome to front and center, from political battlefields to cooperative playing fields. Hello, I'm Michael Maxsenti. And before we introduce our guests, let me introduce my partner, Steve Behrman. Steve, take it away, please.
Thank you. Thank you. And yes, we're very pleased today to have as our guest, Joan blades. She's the co founder of living room conversations. It's an open source effort to rebuild respectful discourse across ideological, cultural and party lines, while embracing our shared values. She's also co founder of moveon.org. And mom's rising, and the co author of the custom fit workplace and the award winning motherhood manifesto. Welcome, Joan. Hi.
Hi, there. Great to be here.
Good. Well, you know, you and I met I can remember when I think it was probably about 10-12 years ago, we met through a mutual friend, Joseph McCormick, trans partisan pioneer. And I think we went for a hike or two and Tilden Park in Berkeley together, I think it's really important for people to hear a little more about your story. How was it that you went from move don't move on, which was a very partisan organization, to wanting to participate or create something like the living room conversations.
A lot of people have forgotten that move on started back in 98, around the time of the Clinton impeachment scandal, and about six months into it, my husband and I wrote a one sentence petition, Congress must immediately censure the president and move on to pressing issues facing the nation, because it just seemed like we were getting way too polarized. And it was not helpful. And you could love Clinton or hate Clinton, and agree that was the best thing to do. And we actually had, you know, 1000s and 1000s of Republicans sign that petition as well as Democrats. I am a mediator by Origin and inclination. So that the origin of move on was actually quite unifying. What happened was after a flash campaign, that communicated with millions of voters and got out to vote, and pundits agree that the impeachment was not popular, the House voted to impeach. And when the House voted to impeach, we just engaged hundreds of 1000s of people in politics many times for the first time in their lives. And good citizens work to elect people that represent their values more. That's when we got hooked in for a longer term engagement. And those people were, you know, that wasn't okay. And so at the point we got involved in elections, that is an adversarial process and move on became very strongly associated with the Democrats at that point. I will also note that I live in Berkeley, I was born in Berkeley. The guy on the left comes kind of natural to me. But I've always wanted to have good relationships with people that have different viewpoints.
So how did this living room conversations emerge? How did you? How did you actually create the connections to to have that kind of a platform and what, what made you want to go to the living room conversations?
Well, actually, it was back in 2004, that I met Joseph McCormick. And I was very interested in helping with reuniting America. And that was an effort to get leaders on the right and left together to talk and I was particularly interested in why there was such a different viewpoint about climate change on the right than the left. And it gave me an opportunity to really make some friends with very different political backgrounds that I had, and I thought it was valuable. by 2008 or 2009, it was less possible to have a good conversation about climate change was so More on the right. And my experience that move on persuaded me that grassroots engagement around allowing people at the community level to really connect is the foundation of a good democracy. So living room conversations is a effort to make it possible for anyone that wants to have a good conversation to have a good conversation with people that they don't necessarily agree with. And it's, they're structured in such a way that it's really a listening practice. And it's a great way to start to come into the space where you grow connection and understanding. And from there, good things can happen.
It's interesting to right, this time, we seem to be in the midst of two seemingly very contradictory trends, probably things are more polarized even now than they were 12 years ago, hard to believe. And yet, there seems to be this impulse coming from a as yet to be defined center that wants people to come together beyond these divides, and work together to solve problems rather than stay on the battlefield. So you seem to be right in the middle of that, of that conversation. How do you see, I mean, but we all know what the causes of polarity are. But I would like to get a little bit of your perspective on that. And then also, how we can was a hopeful signs that, that we actually are going to be able to find these common values and common center.
Um, in terms of Yeah, it's definitely more stressed out than it was way back where I never believed it could get this bad, honestly. And I'm deeply concerned when I started talking about living room conversations, I was talking about how important it was for us to be able to work collaboratively. Because you need everyone's best ideas in the room and you need the agility that comes with being having good relationships, and being able to talk something through and change things, things that are working, you start doing things that are good, you do more of. And when you're in perpetual conflict, that doesn't happen. I started talking about it as peacebuilding about four or five years ago, which is not, not how I was originally thinking about this, but people from outside this country, people that do look at societies that fall apart are starting to look at us with concern. And that's deeply troubling. Yeah, when we start seeing other people as less than in some way, we are losing our capacity to be with each other. And, you know, respect the dignity of everybody that is at the core of this practice. And when you talk about the folks in the middle, I, I'm not sure even call it the folks, the people in the middle there. People throughout the political spectrum, that hold that space that we have to be treating everyone with dignity. And I can be, you know, on the left and whatever I and still really care deeply for someone that has very different viewpoints. Since when have we not been able to do that?
It's interesting that you call it peacebuilding. Because I've, I've had the joke, you know, if we want peace in the Middle East, we have to first create peace in the Middle West. With the people that were a little bit closer to and you know, people will talk about, well, these do have two groups and Israel and Palestine sitting down at the table and talking to one another, as it's become more difficult. So, Michael, I think you probably have some questions regarding how this living room conversations work.
Yeah, I do think Steve Jones just mentioned something about treating everyone with dignity. And that is so crucial. But when as you mentioned just before that about once we've gotten to a point where everybody is othering, the others dehumanizing the others. It makes it nearly impossible. When you do that, to treat them with dignity, otherwise you wouldn't be dehumanizing. You wouldn't be other in them. So how do you see Your perspective, and I really have to ask this question, I really do want to get into some of the specifics of living room conversation, because I think you have a wonderful organization there. And that's grown immensely. But before that, how do you see us getting to do that, to treat others with dignity? What would be the, the acorn that would grow into a tree, and help us do that?
I think these the commitment to respect and listening leads there very rapidly. Once you start to have relationships across differences, you begin to perceive how that impression that people are more extreme than they actually are, is, is really true. And as you start to care about people with very different viewpoints, you start to generalize that to because we become increasingly homogenous in our communities, we become even fearful to talk to people with different viewpoints. At which point, when a bunch of people that agree sit down to talk about something political, they come away from that conversation more self righteous, more sure that everyone else is idiots. This is not helpful.
What is evil or evil?
Yeah, or evil. There's just so many ways that we, you know, put people into buckets of being somehow different and not worthy. And, you know, I hear people say, too often, why would I want to talk to them. And that is a problem, because we are in our community, locally, but also nationally. And as that division has grown, it's causing some very ugly things to happen at both the national and the local level. So we had the very interesting thing about COVID. is, it's cause new divisions I never imagined would happen. But it's also caused us to be comfortable having conversations like we're having now, really personal, on video. So we've got 10s of millions of people that can connect across the country if they choose to. So there are you know, there's sibling cities that are being encouraged. And I was just talking to the Rotary Peace group last night, and they're saying, oh, yeah, we have rotary clubs all around this country. We've got churches, we've got libraries, we've got bookstores, we've got bakeries that are doing living room conversations on a monthly basis. And some of them are saying, Okay, now I'm ready to talk to you know, we have a San Francisco Arkansas, safe community group.
That's two different worlds.
There are all sorts of choices. And it's fun. You know, we always look very serious about this, but it's actually really fun meeting people. And
let me stop you here and ask you, for those in our audience to be and those who will be hopefully watching this, one of our main goals is to help bring to these new people and understanding the of this process that's available to them because so many people ask, What can I do, and in a great starting place would be to go to an engage in a living room conversation for somebody who knows nothing about that. Would you kind of give a brief intro to somebody what is living room conversations? How does it work?
Living room conversations are open source. You have over 100 conversation guides on a wide variety of topics. There are six people classically, sometimes they're four or five, don't encourage it to go much over six because the intimacy is what makes it really gratifying. And when you talk about oh, it's only six fifths full, you have to remember because these are self facilitated starts with a set of conversation agreements about respect, curiosity, taking turns kind of what you're learned in kindergarten, right? Everyone's very good at essay reading Oh, yeah, I could do that. We could have 10,000 or 100,000 conversations in a weekend if people chose to do it. So yes, they're small. But they're also massively scalable. And, you know, having had the move on experience, I have seen viral moments. And what I hope to see at some point is people to say, Enough, this is not good, we are going to have to be in right relationship with other people around us. There's a documentary that came out last year called the social dilemma that digs into how our media and way too many leaders are constantly tapping into our fear, our anger and our anxiety, because that's what gets shared most readily. And that is not good for us. And it's not good for our relationships. We have to intentionally own where we want to be without relationships, and make this change.
It's great for those who watching and aren't familiar, some of the topics that they have, and they have by category. And there's, as Joe mentioned, over 100, the American Dream category, culture and society, education, the environment, faith, family, and community. And it goes on, there's a values connection in COVID conversations, conversations about talking about politics, talking about race, talking about all kinds of things. And for those who are concerned a little bit, there are conversation agreements that everyone has to agree to, to start the conversation. And just briefly, the key ones are be curious and listen to understand, show respect, and suspend judgment. Note any common ground as well as any differences, be authentic, and welcome that from others be purposeful and to the point. So that's just a little bit more for somebody who doesn't know to hopefully invite them to go to your website, which is Jane,
Living Room Conversation.Org, thank you. And there is a little button there where you can join. And if you do that, once a week, you'll get a note that tells you about new conversations, conversations that you can just join online, upcoming trainings, because some people like to have host training. We have some hosts that have been trained or super skilled and like going into the tougher conversations. A lot of communities like having starting with some of the values conversations where they find a lot of common ground. And then they will choose things that are increasingly challenging, but really deep. There's an Evangelical community that was doing the monthly and things got overheated on Facebook, and they chose to have the guns and responsibility conversation that month. And it was remarkable, because I got to kind of hear about one table because I had a I had a connection there were two men that were ready to die for the Second Amendment Right, right at this table, and a woman that had been traumatized, not once but multiple times because of guns. And what happened was a conversation where they just really listened to each other, and came to appreciate why these men had such affection for guns that was part of their connection to their fathers in their with their kids. And yeah, it's an held guns had impacted her life. And they came away with a lot more appreciation for how these different viewpoints were important to people. And they cared it they took it out into their lives.
I do hope people will go to your website because you have your you've evolved since you've begun and it's grown immensely. It's wonderful. And it's so robust, and you go into great detail and there's examples there for people to get into to explore to find a topic that they would be interested in. You know, when you first shared with me when we first met nine years ago in October 2012 in Seattle, and you shared with me knew what you were thinking about. I was thinking how in the world one by one, can that grow to any substantial amount I was kind of. And here it is, these years later, and it's grown immensely. And it's wonderful, because it is such a great starting point. So I encourage anyone who's looking for something as a place to start, I highly encourage and going to live in conversations, because it's great. You've done a great job with it. And you have a great team as well.
Thank you. Well, I guess the other thing I'd say is, we started around polarization. And very soon, we had some race conversations too. And when George Floyd was killed, those conversations multiply, we probably have a couple dozen conversations that touch on different aspects of race. And with COVID, we have a whole set of conversations about values and connections, we were already having values, conversations. And sometimes I think for a polarized situation, in some ways, the values conversations are the best possible starting place. Because you don't need to start with something hot. You can start with a place where you just talk about your, your purpose, trust, forgiveness, hope, we have all those conversations, and they they have led me to have a better understanding of my own values, having these conversations, which always kind of surprises me because I figured I'm old enough. I've thought about most of these. But now when I sit down and I'm with five other people with different viewpoints, it causes me to be able to understand even myself better.
Steve, I know you've got a lot of good questions to ask to.And let me ask one more before
No, go ahead. Go ahead. Go you're on a rock,
you talk about respectful to rebuild respectful civil discourse, while embracing our core shared values. And that is something you've been talking about and demonstrating throughout your life. But now with living room conversations, what have you found to be those? I know, you articulated? Just now a few of those. But what are those? Through the conversations and through this process? Could you say those to be those shared values, those core shared values? What would they be?
You know, we have a lot of core shared values. We all want Purpose and Need purpose. Fairness is something almost everyone values and kindness. People want to be kind I I've been asked to write with others a conversation about love. Okay, you heard that it's going to very basic parts of humanity, forgiveness, your how, what is our relationship with forgiveness? What? What is forgiveness? Eva? Do we want to? When is it appropriate? When is it not health? There's a lot to unpack in the simple terms. And our own personal relationship with that trust, or forgiveness, or hope, kind of sets a foundation for ourselves to.
Thank you. Thank you, Steve, I'll shut up for a few minutes.
No, no, no, that's it's good. You know, one of the things that you mentioned, John was was so the social dilemma and the forces that are that are seeking to pull us apart. And the other thing you mentioned was one of the things that COVID brought to us as the magic of zoom. And the magic of being able to connect with people all over the country. And, and the thought and dream that I had is a much more scalable conversation where people in this country can circumvent the media and have face to face conversations with one another, at the scale of really talking about, about the values that we share as a country and perhaps ways of unifying around those values, and even collaborating around those values to build more of what we want, rather than devolve into arguing about what we don't want so have you thought I obviously this is a very successful project, anything that's still going after almost it decade and growing. I looked at your staff, there's more people on the staff than there was last year. So I'm seeing that this is really a growing endeavor. How do you see this scaling happening? And and really convening a conversation that avoids and supersedes the social dilemma?
Well, the reason this is open source, so that people can use it in their lives the way that it works, and we want, yeah, we want everybody to open these conversations. I actually love the social dilemma because our technology and relationship conversation, it's the difference that's most interesting, there is not right, left is age, you got a teenager 2030 4050 The way our technology impacts our relationship, technology and relationships, very different depending on when, when you got into the world of technology. And it allows us to think about whether we own our technology, or it islands us and make some choices. I think that, you know, the whole country needs to be having that conversation, and might be motivated to honestly at some point here, because there's all sorts of research, research that suggests we have loneliness at a level that we haven't seen before. We have mental health issues that are way up. And there's, there's this thing where we're connected, but it's not in a way that's fully satisfying for a in person human being. And the interesting thing is we have done a research project, with Fetzer over 18 months started in 2019, that found that both the in person and the video conversations provide the short term and longer term impacts we're hoping for in terms of gaining conversation skills and nuance and which is pretty amazing. But, you know, I can tell stories from the last couple of years where, you know, one, Mom got to know her nephews in a way she never had would have otherwise. And her mother who lived in another state was saying, when can we have another of these conversations. So she got to take care of her mother and her mother's friend and get to know her nephews better, and kind of keeping the family connected and taken care of. So technology can be wonderful. When used in a way that serves us. And if we don't pay attention, we become its tool.
I think that's really what the question is, who's in charge of is it in charge of us? And I think a lot of what's going on right now, with with the COVID conversation is really concerned about this monopoly and top down imposition of narratives and so on, that I think exacerbated all of this divisions that were already there, and made it you know, made it seem more urgent to you know, to the guy with the Who Would you die for his die free the Second Amendment rights and so on. The fears that have been generated by what's been going on and the very different approaches to what personal freedom is, and all of that. Is there a way to actually overgrows that and find and find common ground above and beyond that very deep divide?
That says a very tough one right now because people have lost loved ones. And they've, you know, lost a lifestyle. There's a lot of losses involved with that. And it's it's something that's also very tied to kind of showing your team colors. So many complications. Kind of the trust conversation is probably the starting conversation for that. Because we've got to have the start to build some trust to be able to get to the destination we It's this is not a one conversation challenge we're facing.
Joan, you mentioned technology and asked the question, Do we own it? Or does it own us. And that is a conversation, as you mentioned, that is absolutely essential to be had by all. Particularly the millennial generation and Gen Xers and those because their life, they're going to be living it while and I'll leave it at my generation, even though the same, pretty close. So the conversation is so crucial, because there's so many people right now that are excited about this transhumanism and how they see the the fun and, and benefits only of what the some of these new technologies can do. And they're not aware of the unintended consequences perhaps, and or how it can be used by some to control and oppress others. And all they have to do is look at what's been going on in China since 2017, when they introduced these new levels of technology. And now they have the social rating, and your freedoms are directly tied to your obedience to their rules. And what I wanted to bring up is, it would be important for anyone watching this who wants to look at this question. I encourage them to watch on Netflix of all places, which had social dilemma, which was a great starting place. Watch that, and we'll link that up on the bottom of the show notes. But also to watch Black Mirror. Black Mirror is 22 episodes, but it clearly takes us to some of the unintended consequences of this new level of technology. It's called Black Mirror. And the new show that's just gotten all the rave reviews that so many young people are watching. And I finally watched it after so many my friends, kids told me how they loved this was squid game. And squid game is a again, an advancement of the use of technology. And it's also an advancement of the story of The Hunger Games, Hunger Games to a new level.
I've also had some people describe it as violence porn. Yeah, I think you can have a narrative that's got value, but then it's coupled with something that object to, and I have not watched.
Have you watched Black Mirror? By the way? No, I encourage you to go watch now that's there are some that I mean, I literally there was a couple episodes I had to turn off. Couldn't I was so uncomfortable watching some, but most of them are not. Some of them are very innocuous. And they're all like the Twilight Zone. If each episode is uniquely different, takes on a totally different aspect. I encourage you to go watch a few of those, at least and and share that with people. Steve, did you have the because I could go on I got some other questions.
Well, I would I think we want to talk more about about, you know, one of the things that's been happening in these conversations, your your number seven of our conversations and through some intuitive whatever the conversations seem to build on one another and you're following conversations about indigenous people. You're following conversations. Thom Hartmann did a very articulate presentation on what he calls the lost people, which has to do with the fact that the, you know, white folks from Europe have little or no connection with their own indigenous past. And so there's much that's been lost. That's that's probably enabled us to be so focused on technology without the wisdom, the deep wisdom that comes from being grounded in the earth and so on. And I so this is a conversation about we're now coming to the point where all of our collective trauma, it seems like everybody is suffering from either a mild to serious case of PTSD. And this collective trauma is coming up for for healing and I know Michael had some questions about about that. I know that you've been you you've been thinking about that as well and the Are the adverse childhood events that lead to so many problems in adult life? Can you talk a little bit about that?
I don't feel like I have expertise to I, I think there's some adverse childhood experiences inform a lot of schooling needs, resilient schools. medical issues. Yeah, it's, it's got a profound impact on individuals. The place where the conversations intersect with this is, as we try to change, communities dynamics, it's a way to invite in missing voices. There's one school in Walla Walla, Washington that did just an amazing job of creating a resilient school that was a great place for kids that had had a lot of trauma. And having that school replicated, has not happened at a large scale at all. No, we have good ideas and good outcomes at various places, and then it doesn't get replicated in systems are very hard to change human beings hold on to what is what they're used to much more tightly than you would think even when they're not working. Great. Change is scary. So I like to believe that these conversations are one way to help get the missing voices in and get people starting to think about the issues that need to be thought about, but then they would need to move on to a facilitated process. The conversations are part of change, changing systems, but they are not the lead changers. It's a wonderful entryway.
Okay,
where do you see the most light at the end of the tunnel? That's not a car coming the other way? Where do you where do you because you've been doing these, I know that there's stories that have inspired you. But in the midst of of all of this difficulty that we're facing right now and challenge, what is it that that makes you go, I think we can make
the last year or so I've been seeing that leaders in all sorts of different positions are finding the conversations useful for achieving their ends. For you know, libraries, conversations are a great way for them to support the community, build the community create more connections in the community. And libraries have been redefining themselves, right? Safe Communities, faith communities, the core values of faith communities, are about human dignity. In fact, the language I think I like the most is we have to see the divinity in everyone. And that's a place where sometimes the congregation is quite diverse. And they need to first make the connection with each other and then they can expand that to the larger community they're in and then some of them may choose to expand that to across the country because they see that the country also needs this kind of work. Clubs, Rotary, there's just when leaders take it and run with it. And when it becomes school systems, where it becomes embedded in other organizations, I think that's the way it's going to really be able to help heal and begin the process of getting us back into a place of good relationship and trust. Prior to the election, I worked with the Peace alliance to promote a an agreement that had right left pairs, condemning violence around the election and Five minutes is local. So if you can create a local container that says we don't do this here, that's highly effective. And I think we need to do that create a lot of local containers of, we all belong here. And we are making this a community. That is the kind of place that we all want to live. This, that's the tool that I dream this this. And as our community as our smaller community becomes more and more healthy than it will see how it's connected to the community adjacent, and adjacent. That's my light at the end of the tunnel.
That's a nice beacon. What are the things that we're trying to help bring forth is to get people aware that to envision the world that they know is possible, Charles Eisenstein says it's so beautifully with the more beautiful world our hearts know as possible. And when people begin to think in the positive terms, what we can make of how do we want to live? What are those shared values that we all share, but how do we want to live, then you start making decisions that will move us in that direction. And that's so important. And these conversations, as part of that, when people start to think about and talk about what is the kind of world we want to live in. That'll help us move away from allowing the kinds of decisions to be made that are taking us away from a place that we know is possible, and that we want to live in because we can look around and see the trauma, and then how most people have to live. You're offering a nice, a nice path and a beacon. That's important. And I could go back for a second on something that that Steve had asked about a new ad brought forth to me, which was aces. And that's the adverse childhood experiences. And that research that the CDC in conjunction with Kaiser, you brought sent to me back in 2012. And I've been following that development of ACEs and how that's been implemented. And this understanding of trauma, I think, is one of the crucial things that can help in these conversations, that that live in conversations is having an all of us need to have in our having is that understanding of our shared trauma. And that's where the story that Steve alluded to call the last people that we brought forth with Tom Hartman is that understanding that all cultures, all cultures have gone through horrific periods in their evolution in their history. And it's from a position of understanding that the and he had the firsthand experience with a half Aborigines, where that half half half aborigines person was he has, don't you hate those white people that did that to you says? No, because what they did to me had been done to them by others, and that this issue of violence, people perpetrate violence, because violence had been done to them. They've been taught that that's their way of dealing with difficult situations. And that's where this issue of, of our shared trauma can help us lead out of that continuation of this violent period, this period of separation and help us say, wow, we've all gone through and have this shared trauma. Now let's, let's have a time let's let's come back and reunion and accept each other. And that's one of the ways that we can begin to look at each other with dignity is to realize that you're doing to me or what has been done to you or your ancestors, and that's burned into our DNA and passed down from generation to generation. And now it's time we can change that.
I want to add one thing to that because it when you were describing John, the way that the conversations on thought, if we look at how things happen on social media, all of the frustration and emotion seem to be channeled into anger. When there are other emotions like fear and most importantly, grief. And, obviously, in these face to face, heart to heart conversations, these emotional nuances like the grief that people share which is, you know, as important as the joy that people share? Have you ever found that those emotions get aired as well that kind of fill in the picture a little more?
If you're talking about the living room conversations, yeah, I would say, yes. I mean, it's the conversations are structured so that you read the agreements together. And you've got an understanding, and the first round is fairly short. And just an opportunity to answer one or three questions that tend to lead you to talk about some of your deeper values. The second round is the heart of the conversation, the topic you have chosen. And when you're asked those questions, it's about your personal relationship with that topic. And so that's where, you know, you end up talking about a lot, but we have a whole set of conversations about loss in the COVID conversation set. And the final round is just a reflection and next steps. It's, it's a simple model that is profound, we really, I just kind of struck again and again by how powerful it is to show up and really listen to a group of people that see things very differently. And to appreciate it.
Listening is the most probably the most important place to start.
A lot of people come away from this practice. And what they have to say is that it changed their way of relating outside of the living room conversation to gave them more skills.
Steve...Well, that's a really excellent, the only other the other question is also kind of a future pace question. And that is that once the, this may not be the department of the of living room conversations, but I, I think it's sort of a next step. And that is that once people come to rehumanize one another and recognize that there are shared values, even though there are different ways of getting there. Can you have you seen a kind of collaborations emerge, where people recognize the importance of coming at some of these div isive issues, from the different points of view? Has that emerged at all Yet?
I have been part of one initiative that started out of a loving conversation around criminal justice reform. I honestly, we don't we don't have the full vision of things happening, though. I haven't heard of, yeah, I have heard of things happening in all sorts of places. I have little snippets from, you know, sometimes it's because of a relationship that started and then it just continues. So around the country. Yes. And I can't give you a great story except my own personal one, which was, you know, when I co hosted a conversation with co founder of the Tea Party Patriots, he and his friends and my friends, we had so much agreement around too many people in prison, the war on drugs is not a success. Gotta find evidence based practices, that we ended up being able to contribute both in a public way but also that it was a seed for a group called the Coalition for public safety. That was kind of amazing.
You traveled That's a great story. Thank you.
You traveled around the country with with Mark Meckler, right.
That we did need to go to a couple of things together. Yeah. Yeah.
You've done a series with John Grable with, John Gable cable with the all sides. Can you share with us some of some of those experiences and what brought you guys together and what was the genesis behind that?
Sure. I met John Gable in Colorado years ago as part of the bridging movement. I heard John Gable years ago in Washington DC at a bridging meeting. And we realized as we went for a walk together that we were heading in two parts of the puzzle, all sides is focused on giving people the news from across the political spectrum so people could see, right, left and center side by side. And that's why people see things differently. And what living room conversations is that ability to be in relationship with people that see things differently. And the reality of the sciences, we don't even hear people. We don't hear what they're saying when we don't trust them, or we don't have a relationship with them. And that all sides and living room conversations together. Oh, what kind of magic right? So John, and I had done that a partner at living room conversations for years, we did a TED talk together, I think in 2017, and then we did a wisdom 2.0 talk a year or so after that together. And he's just an amazing advocate. And of course, we're left right combination, because he's from Kentucky, and appropriately enough, all sides is a for profit organization. Living room conversations, of course, is not for profit, we are right and left in a very classic form. And we really like each other. John is amazing.
It's a great, it is a great merge, because one of the biggest things is people whatever narrative they're, they're in, they're not hearing it all the others. And one of the great ways I've been able to see people move out of a silo and and get a willingness to get a broader perspective is when they're introduced to watching or seeing how their narrative is saying, telling them this and a different narratives that others are watching is telling them something totally different about the same issue. And then they begin to hopefully spark curiosity, to begin to think about media bias, their own bias, and how they and how those things interact, to put us into silos, and hopefully it sparks curiosity for people to rise above those biases. To see a broader perspective.
Well, it's natural for people to really appreciate hearing their own viewpoint reinforced. And that's what we seek in the news. When we have someone we really care about, that sees things very differently. That brings it to us in a really deep way. My you know, one of my dear friends in Utah, climate was not on his list of concerns when I first met him. And ultimately, because me and another friend of his it was, and it was because he cared about me. And I became aware that he was concerned about being marginalized because of his faith. And I care about that. Because I care about him. It is, you know, the research shows that we are generally making our decisions based on our emotions, and then our brain is rationalizing that. And, you know, we just don't like believing that. But I related to it causally convinced it's hard for me often to articulate what my friends that I disagree with are saying, it really takes I have to work harder. I I watched my brain trying to take it in trying to set okay, it can be very confusing. Yeah, it's worth it. Yeah.
Personal connections. And that's where the internet is you talked about much earlier is this issue of we do have the ability to connect, but the connections that we make online, if you don't know the person, like, like, I feel towards you and Steve because I had met personally. So now I don't feel any different coming online because there's a strong personal connection I feel towards both of you. But if I'd had to establish that to come on online, it's very different. The connection you build with somebody that you just meet online and you and you don't have that option. portunity to look into their eyes to feel their words, you can hear but you can't feel it. And that's where the personal connection is lost when we think that these relationships that are started online and only or online, or it can be as deep as
I have to have a difference with you on this one, please. Because the thing that is so remarkable is in these small conversations across the country, where people are meeting for the first time, and then having ongoing, there's one conversation group that I became part of. And it's now on its fourth conversation. And I've never met any of these people in person. But I'm getting to know them in really, by having meaningful conversations. So it the key thing, nice person,
the key thing that you're saying, though, is you're now into the second, third and fourth conversation. And that's what people if they aren't sparked with the curiosity to continue it. They don't they can't build it, you have to have that ongoing. And that's that's the difference with can create a deeper connection.
Yes, but I am saying that it can be entirely by video. And you can. Because of the work I've done, I have some friendships that have been 95 98% revote. And they are really dear friends. And I, so I don't want to diminish that at all.
No, I didn't, I didn't mean it, to do that. So I'm glad you clarified that.
Well, I've also been, you know, reporting on the fact that the impact of the conversations in video and in person is no comes up the same, though they are different. Because if you have a local community, you have different ways that it connects. And if you have a virtual community there, that's necessarily you're not going to get together for dinner, you're not going to hang out with the kids together. You're not going to do a local project together. But there are actually some natural projects you might do together.
Thank you.
Well, thank you so much, John, for what you've been doing, and for providing this this way for people who are curious and who are ready to rehumanize and are looking at this reunion that we're talking about to actually get in, get involved, we have a link. After the synergy, we'll have a link to, of course living room conversations. And we're encouraging people to take advantage of the work and play that you've done over the last bunch of years.
Thank you so much. Really great to spend time with you both. And we should do it again.
We will.
And I want to thank you, Joan have a and you know, our relationship is we've only really physically sat together. I don't know, four or five times maybe. I mean, we had a few there and but I feel that strong connection that we've maintained through the internet and through the distances over the past nine years. So again, thank you so much for what you're doing. And I want to hope that our guests have enjoyed this conversation. I hopefully encourage you to go to Living Room Conversations.org Get involved. We need you. And we're inviting you to follow us. Please subscribe so Stephen, I can continue our work and continue to pay our rent. And remember, 'From Political Battlefields, To Cooperative Playing Fields', it's a long journey to the more beautiful world our hearts know as possible. Let us go there together. Thank you so much.