High Stakes, Measured Takes: Making Sense Of The Latest Developments In Technology And The Law

6:00PM Aug 24, 2023

Speakers:

Keywords:

case

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public records

data

foia

called

years

issues

scraping

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good

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andy warhol

people

question

Yeah so what I'm thinking is like we need like, rocking and rolling, but like he needs some sort of, like, householder weekend like, we're getting support from like, a person and

when to check check testing when to check a

box or not

when rather than taking the share, it's just up as on what come to life and then down turn it off. I'll leave it off notice, Casey, thank you, of course

and the Pulitzer Center repeatedly.

I saw that, like we're in that I'm not sure.

I think we just won Pulitzer

Prize.

Sometimes it's about how individual consumers are making choices about their homes, and how they adapt to climate change, and how those decisions are brought up. Oh, yeah, let me definitely

because know

some of those issues so long before but like in two weeks, you know, back in school when a person is like, you have a high net worth talking to a doctor or a family. I know right? As simple things such wonderful lawyer just gave me a lot

more I'm sorry, I don't know. It's either it's either good thing or bad.

Lawyers to be very helpful. Yeah.

Yeah. These ones are like you don't see it, but they're aggressive this book with the government is great. You're like the Avengers was, like especially

strong. No, I don't maybe like you know, when like, I don't know,

Iron Man. He's one of those crises. You need the help to come in and smash Smash. Smash, smash, smash Smash.

The government is great.

A little bit it's it's mostly it's less working out. I'm more just knowing a couple

good phrases and having a word Yeah.

And I guess having a diploma.

Oh, you just need it to like say yeah, okay. That's all that's all. Sure.

You know, speaking of error I had been taught there's some professors now think that the first two years of law school could be replaced

by genitive. Disagree, okay. I think the third year of law school is unnecessary in general, generally.

Did you think all of

law school was unnecessary?

No. No, I liked I liked my time there. Yeah.

Did you think that there was necessary?

Ah, maybe not. But I was pretty aggressive in cramming the court doctrinal classes in earlier like a lot of people don't get to fit in courts until three out which I think is a shame. Shouldn't take that course. Should someone ever told me that well, you only want to do FOIA.

Well, you only want to do for you

know like when we had that that complex think really case I don't know, man I got all the time. And we should these are

all for you guys to talk about. Yeah,

I don't know any of those are from my Yeah, yeah, that's us. Okay. So feel free to interject at any point.

But you can change if you want. I just had

so you want to ask one algorithm, for example, identify legal cases and strategies.

Yeah, so these are all like the 10 Copyright

shit. Yeah, that's happening. For you. I mean, like some of the system we're the most about with AI is that there's so much shit that's gonna happen with like, kids being lured into horrible like bots and stuff like this. I don't know if I can confirm that yet. But there's at least one case that I know of where a grown ass man

with two children committed suicide because he talked to the boss so

much that they were the boss was like, You're gonna save climate crisis, but you will sacrifice himself to me the Forever AI is like what the book is kind of crazy. Reviewing produce records.

Which one seat like reviewing records do you get through public records requests?

Yes, yes. So like using automated means of understanding records by feeding a bunch of text through it. I do that sometimes. Yeah, but very Baby, baby. Natural language processing. Yeah, look for words, word account.

It's basically workload a fancy one. Yeah, AI is using

but I like have been running through the documents that we've gotten in cases. Okay.

And quality is like very good because its token limit is much higher. You can play hundreds and hundreds of pages

of like PDFs. And you know what I've also heard about AI being better than anything else is translation. Yeah, my just did a bunch of stuff in a Vietnamese community and they were like, yeah,

it's much better than Google Translate. I was like,

oh, yeah, that's totally

interesting. Data privacy. Okay, interesting. So you have all these things. You guys are so much better than

not true. Yes. Technology public

records. We have government's use. So on the public records side. So I want to talk about what kind of development where some are requiring the government to hash data instead of feedback. Which is like really in like databases, like yes for database from the government. And instead of like the.com, of course, requires a different

type of hashing. Meaning

to like, put it through like a one way algorithm where it

replaces unique values. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That was great. Yeah, because otherwise we have to hack API's and that's against term services. And again, they go to prison, right? Maybe

a little bit. I get this like no, don't do this. Okay,

this is what I'm Did you sir, other tech stuff. Public Records. I mean, it takes us

but I can talk about is like sort of like understanding what

to ask for. really asking for data. I clearly did not want to put this

on second public records, projects. I can do that. Everyone can do calm Oh man. Wait Starfield that on is it on record? Well, it's funny because like we run a very good you run a little group of generals of color. We have like 3000 in a little slack and all of us are spread across this time, right. Oh my god.

We call it the gerrymandering against God.

But yeah, I did this so I can put in I'm gonna put this in there and just talk about that. It was fun to do.

Public Records audits. Clearly, I did not do a good job of preparing. Don't hate me. Okay. And you can just refresh right? Don't do that. Put this. This is not a different period.

Oh, yeah. I didn't like more after that one.

I think we talked about mash this presentation. Okay. chocolate river audit.

This is a weird I got 32 gigabytes worth of data. That's awesome.

There's so much to it. You see the spirit has been the biggest data or data is the number of ways in which that was 256 times three.

to 56 times three.

768 70 gigabytes, Janis. What was it? I can't tell you. A little bit maybe, okay, fine, but that's how big the data was. You guys have asked me to store

what I'm seeing right after this. Let's go to demonstrate. Okay. I'm sorry. I can only be at your table for half an hour. Which women? No she's in here. I'm driving back right after this. I have to be at a dinner spot in Bushwick at 730

Say hi. Yeah,

I think I'm talking to her signal. Are you talking to this? No, no,

that's her cases are ongoing. A pentagon. Been a long, long call. Do you understand how much fun your jobs but to me?

By the way up, we feel very fortunate. We feel fortunate to be working for JP Morgan. No, no. I guess maybe yourself. I have fun.

I have fear and have fun. Don't think the best part about that is that no one owns me fully.

It's important to diversify. You know, it's

been really fun. Let's see if I can pull this up. Without giving away too much. But

yeah, no, I don't have anything. It wouldn't have to be on a hard drive. But it's been really fun to do these analyses with the emails and just to see like how many see this? Yeah. So the emails that we got from this were neighbors alerts that went straight to police officers like this email, for example, was a post from where someone was like strange, strange prison brain and go Doorbot multiple times in a row with what seems like a stick covered at the end of the pole. Be safe, right like this is the kind of crime alert that was automatically forwarded

to this going from like the citizen app

or something from neighbors. So it's like crowdsource like crime alerts, that are now being built into an automated snitch network. And that's what we got. That was fun. And Jen was helpful with

that. It's just bad coding. So you need to probably clean these up a little bit. But there's some really dark shit within that. I don't know.

It's very sad. There's a different data set that you go

through. Well, someone else Great. Speaking of which, if a scholar scraped something and violated the terms of services, that's the criminal activity follow me as I use the data

to Bernanke class.

If you lawfully required information, you're probably concerned even if it was illegally fired by somebody else in the first instance. Generally, no liability? No, the question is, what as long as they acquired me. And how much does it matter what you know about the lawbreaking of the person who acquired so your shows up unsolicited in your inbox? 100%. Say like, if you if you ask for ask for it, it depends a little bit if it's already been acquired, that he already did the, the scraping or whatever. He's not doing it at your behest. Then you know, but you know that it was illegally acquired. Gray Area. Probably Okay. Asking him to go get more specific data. diciest. Okay. Thank you require him to break the law. Okay. That being said, you're only in trouble if he's breaking some laws, of course you're doing it. And so you know, in that sort of downstream way, if it's not, if it wouldn't be a violation of the law for him to violate the terms of service, it's also not going to be a violation of the law for you to ask him. Thank goodness Medina. So you didn't go to that point. If I if I'm in the gray area, there's some complicated attitudes of burden in common in this case partner TVs offer which is about anonymously.

And we doesn't yet know him. But I know he had that was back in my mid game, you know? Clean, pretty cool, geeky CleanBid. Yeah,

actually, I feel like we should have coordinated to standardize the size of our faces. I feel like my thing. I think both of your faces

are appropriate amongst this model that

maybe is the sweet spot. That's true. It was taken like

five years ago.

Sweet like, it doesn't look like you. But I feel like you look older in the photo. Really? Then you realize a haircut? Yeah. The classes

I just stopped wearing. And the beard is much fogged up. And I was like during the classes we have seven more minutes or six minutes to ban tomato chatter to banter. Social media

listed a new one here. No, no, no, not just based in Georgia. herself. She's a good girl. She's like down here like Wake Forest. What is it? He's a

he's like the deputy communications I gotcha. Got it. Correct. I'm not sure

deputies communications but yeah, she's crazy.

And then oh, was the person was the same haircut for me. It's like this she's like, what's the name? She's an attorney. She's great. Yeah, she's good.

And we were excited about having this thing here.

Recently because you're pro today

I mean, maybe as a four year history long before me.

So your event once again.

I think it's more of a it's more of a solar system, drawing people into orbit

kind of security requirements. Oh, yeah. Like, which one are you apart? With a monkey that leaves you with time when everything else is gonna

remember one happy, evil, Happy Planet. The darkness. Yeah. And there were like the four evil things. We

came together and we get that remake?

Yeah,

that was happening. And there was all the

Vietnamese language that maybe you shouldn't see your wife. I don't know that she would know. But

when you come to New York, I will be your wife. Okay, maybe you too.

So your bedtime in New York is too close to the MTC Yes. Do you have a take on the database? We put it in New York. There's a big one. There's a big like Neopia

and it's not good. Most of it is like it. It's a little bit like playing on a soldier especially with like, brands like Amazon.

will have this like sauce.

Oh yeah. They sound like spice packs.

I want them to get all their money. It's the same with women. It's just the type of being unnecessary.

Yeah, we've done that. We've done the whip copy thank you but it sounds like it's not good value for money was just not there. Sure. You're not really tasting a difference. I was like, grinding it right. But no, no, no. It's hard. She's got so much hustle though. I know. So much marketing hustler.

isn't good. History maker. Her name is Lauren Trent and she has a thing called one by one which is wonderful.

Oh yeah, I think we ordered some of the cookies on Instagram. Oh, it's hard. Yes. This one does. Great. I like that this is now we take it Are you okay? I am at the kind of world war you know what? COVID Would you hate them? All Hollywood is anti pandemic.

He was for the longest time until the last few times. Because he's a I don't know. And then prove they have no fine paddle. It just in French. Sorry, this is great.

That's incredibly narrow minded.

I know. But then he changed his mind for sure. One

this was a lot of experience. This is where you come to dc we should we should you gotta eat attended.

And it was great. Yeah, it was one of the same for like, you know, there's like, there's the one spot. There's a

history of disability history and and center

where there was I got used to being clarity. Yeah,

you know, we'll bring us in the data and then we'll do like a little workshop and then we'll have those to know how to eat as my bowl kale. No, she won't, but like she will find a way to get the best South Asian mangoes anywhere. We weren't talking about together. They didn't serve mangoes. She was like I need mangoes and somehow we have an investigative report

about that, as Adam mentioned, this local food podcast, a thing about like how like the center of Vietnamese life that he severed shifted from Clarendon to Paul's Church. But there is this bit about these this language kind of like a lot of families. It's like a second just placement. Yeah. And so he was like I feel like they probably didn't experience like I feel like you know, like, is her like her dad.

There are some seats up front for anyone who's brave. I got

two balls too church had the same emotional way. As it was

already creating the follow up of that will get you also the graphic novel and yeah. Sure.

All right. We're gonna get going. Very exciting. Everyone's very excited about our measured takes.

Plenty of seats. You can always bail even if you sit in the middle.

Could someone who's standing near the door actually maybe close the door so there's less crosstalk thank you so much. Is that what happened?

All right, welcome everyone to high stakes measured takes. Thank you so much for joining us here today. We're gonna do intros really quick, and then we'll go through what we're going to talk about today. And then we're gonna get into the substance of everything. So my name is Adam Marshall. I'm a senior staff attorney at the Reporters Committee for freedom of the press. I hope you know who we are but if you don't check us out. rcfe.org and sitting next to me is lamp.

Hi, my name Islam. It runs his mom. If you hang out with me long enough, you know why and like to feed people but the way in which I afford all the food that I will give you is I work for the market as a reporter. I also have a data reporter and a love for you, which is how I know these two guys, and I'm also a data journalism professor at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at CUNY in New York. Okay.

And I'm Grayson Clary, I worked with Adam at the Reporters Committee were likewise a staff attorney. And we're he knows everything there is to know about FOIA idea with the weird, disorganized smattering of issues that sometimes come up around journalists use of new technologies, including some of the issues we're gonna talk about today.

Yeah, so, really quick. Here's what we're gonna talk about today. We're gonna start off with some fun scraping, law and issues. We're gonna then turn to some AI issues. And then finally, we're gonna finish up with some tech and public records issues although spattering of public records throughout and then bonus for anyone who was around later we're going to be doing a table talk in this room at four o'clock, very informal, you can just come up and chat with us. So feel free to do that if you want. All right, after scraping

Okay, I think the reason why I'm here is because I'm the subject of a lot of scary things that happen in the law, because I'm also a data journalism and these guys are like my Avengers team that comes through when I need someone to bail me out of jail. So the reason when we're talking about scraping is because who is familiar with scraping in this room? Okay. A lot of people, okay, so you write a script, you go in and you take some data and you take some information off, you put it in a spreadsheet, you would do that if you did that as a person, it will probably take 100 years you write a script it takes about three seconds, 30 seconds. Funny enough in the terms of services that we all read very like very thoroughly whenever we sign up for any kind of account. There's small clauses that sometimes bar you from doing this process. And oftentimes, we always have to fear there is a wonderful law, I think, from 1968 or 1960s. Where basically Ronald Reagan was a Reagan Yes. saw a movie with the guy who was Ferris Bueller? What's his name? Matthew. Matthew Broderick called wargames? And he was like, Oh, someone's hacking into the defense system of the US. I need to create a law that protects digital, like stuff like that. And so, the CFAA the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act was founded back then, and hasn't really been updated all that much from what I understand. But I was told as soon as I started playing around with Python and scraping then I could be committing a felony based on that. And so I think at that point in time, there had not been a major ruling by the Supreme Court. I have always approached the act of doing automated information gathering, which is basically the same thing that I would do sitting there as a person copying and pasting stuff into spreadsheet, right? With a lot of fear. I'm a German citizen, I came to this country more than 15 years ago.

I have One of two tones if you're wearing one of two hats when we talk to dad journalists about their rights when we're in our role as advocates right for what journalists ought to be entitled to do, there are ways of talking about the state of the law today that I think can make things deservedly seem very sunny. So folks might be familiar with Van Buren, the United States, which was the first Supreme Court case to deal with the scope of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act a couple of years ago, and where a majority of the justices seemed incredibly skeptical of any reading of federal law that would have criminalized routine journalism activity. We got a little shout out for the brief out in the case we love to be cited. It's often hard to get proof that anybody read these briefs unless it actually shows up in the opinion. So that was nice. And to the extent anybody has Oh, I guess I can't do that one. has heard of another case in this space. It's probably an opinion out of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals called high Q Labs be LinkedIn that prompted a lot of headlines like this. For the proposition don't worry about it. Scraping is legal. When we turn around and where our legal advisory hat or when we get a an inquiry into our hotline about I'm about to do this, can I do this? The story is often a little bit more complicated. And the thing that we tried to underline to folks, is in this space, you're often really talking more about risk management than you are about clearly established rights. It's relatively rare that we get an inquiry and we're able to say, Oh, thank God, you need to call us at all because it's just impossible. For what you're doing to draw a cease and desist letter for lead someplace scary. And I think a couple of recent cases just this year, highlight that in some respects. There have also never been greater threats to routine journalism, that makes use of online sources, whether that's through some sophisticated technique like scraping or something as banal as visiting a website that somebody doesn't think, you know, it's there. I think two examples that highlight that starkly one is this. I'm sure everyone is aware that the Marion County raid on the offices of newspaper guessing like drug hands folks have heard about this incident. Yeah. I think what's gotten less discussion is the fact that from the police's perspective, this was a computer crime case. The basis for the warrant. In their view, was the fact that having gotten to tip that particular local citizens driver's license had been suspended because of the DUI offense. They went on. A Kansas Department of Revenue website, and checked if that was in fact the case. And if you want to tab over to the other one, that's what the website looks like. She doesn't have a terms of service, right? So this is not the fact pattern that I think everybody spends all their time talking about. When they think about data journalism in the law. There isn't a there isn't a contractual agreement to violate here. The only indication that anybody might think that you weren't supposed to use the website this way, is at most that it says your name and not just name. But in the police's view, at least, that was enough for probable cause to believe that the Marion County reporters had access the website without authorization. In their view, they should have known that this was not the way that you were supposed to be using it, even though as it turned out the Kansas Department of Revenue, disagreed and thought this was totally routine, and if I can get out of the tap back in the opposite direction. A similar issue also arose this year in a case that's still unfolding and unfolding involving timber as anyone heard about this search show of hands, smaller number. Timber is a reporter who specializes in accessing basically video feeds that are often accessible on the internet without the need to authenticate in any way or maybe with the use of sort of generic trial credentials, but not credentials that distinguish an individual user. And in the process of this was involved in some reporting that involves leaked leaked clips from Fox News. His home was likewise the subject of a search warrant, federal search warrant. And while we don't have a perfectly clear picture of what exactly the United States, things happen, there because the warrant remains under seal, despite efforts by local news outlets to get it opened up. It seems like this is another case where you know, online resource was merely obscure, right, there might not have been a rule anywhere that said, you can't visit it. But someone in a position of power thought you should have known you weren't supposed to be visiting it, even though technically, it's possible for you to do so. And so I feel like we have a bit of a sort of a best of times worst of times scenario in some respects these days when it comes to the rights of data journalists, where, on the one hand, we think the legal

Support and one of my favorite scholars on this topic Meredith Broussard she wrote a really great book called artificial unintelligence has really been. A Google search based on 1000s and millions actually millions of

and salvage the world. It was a really freaking sad story but understanding these legal cases, right and in some cases, you might be able to see the chats in between these things and understand what might be happening in the background to understand how to continue to investigate these companies. Where are the vulnerabilities? How much do we actually know?

Right and litigate public records requests all day every

day. That's just my.

A large language them I was like to do things called hallucinating. So I asked for some case law on foyers foreseeable harm standard which is kind of a new, a new feature in the lawn by new I mean it was introduced in.

database and that's generally how how they're viewed. However, ICE agents can also look up individual people in the databases and they can look up all of the instance that they were involved in. And the way that an ice agent would do that is to put in the person's a number for alien number, which is kind of like a social security number for for for persons who are in the kind of ice system. And so ACLU was like, we want all of these database entries that you have. And we understand that these eight numbers are exempt. We can't get them. So what we want you to do is we want you to hash them, instead of redacting them and by hash them the mean basically put them through a one way cryptographic function of some kind that makes them unique, retains their uniqueness, but it obscures it. So instead of being like 12345, would be like a 712. But wherever it Meishan and search for that information across the events in the same way that ICE agents would without getting access to the exempt information itself. I know this is like doesn't sound maybe like revolutionary but in like FOIA, this is like pretty revolutionary and I think for data journalists, they're gonna be very, very happy with this. It has seen, I would say only limited uptake so far. So there was an Arizona public records case, where an appellate court basically cited

Thanks. I hope this makes sense. It's the afternoon. But just in general, are there any legal risks to you using AI in your reporting that you need to be aware of, you know, such as maybe what you put into the AI system or you know, just any anything you should be aware of before you actually go ahead and use the tool, you know, to do reporting.

Doris, we don't have time for that. Yes, yes, you always risks. And one of the things I'll tell you one of the things that I worry about as an attorney, is I have obligations, responsibilities to protect communications between myself and my client, but also to protect my work product, you know, kind of how I'm thinking about things. And one of the things that every lawyer and I think everyone should be worried about is what they put into these systems being spat back out to someone else, or being viewed by someone who is doing quality control for like whatever company and that's why I have only you know, plugged things in here that are already public. And I've only asked to kind of questions that I don't really care about, because I think there's huge potential here. But I am not at all convinced that the privacy side is at a place where I would trust it to use in my legal work. So yes, absolutely.

No, that's totally it like

Yeah. And article you said over here, just because I'm an instructor like you, and I would love to have the article. I would love to have some kind of a an article that I could share with students that would speak specifically to that issue of be careful what you put into AI.

Yeah. I will think of one and come up afterwards and we'll we'll see if we can find one but yes, there have been a lot of articles written about it. Other questions? Oh, yeah. There's a question back there. Can you pass the mic? Thank you. Thank you. Again, we need the AI powered transcript to be completed.

Hi, there. Thanks. Thanks so much. Um, I have a question. I don't know if you guys work on these issues at all about sort of what the status is of the conversation about generative images and the legal issues around those and copyright. I know that's a big one too.

Yeah. I have a unsatisfying answer, which is that we stay 1000 miles away from copyright. issues. Because you know, we represent the organization interested in the news media, but there are media media trade offs in copyright policy. You know, what photographers once not always what news organizations want, it's not always what reporters want and so we do not. We do not dip our toes into the murky waters of copyrightability.

I was on a different on a different AI panel the month I don't know what is the time but there was really interesting conversation. So first of all, there was a Andy Warhol controversy that was brought before the Supreme Court, there was the idea that a photographer had been paid to take a picture of prints and then Andy Warhol made him somebody else. That court case was really informative, I think, to a lot of copyright issues around generative AI because to some degree, Andy Warhol was doing generative or like art with something that's more than was only people once and I think it was ruled in her favor. So this is going to open up all kinds of Pandora's boxes when it comes to copyright. The other thing is, I think a lot of institutions are kind of like trying to figure out how to do this properly. So for example, Adobe has a whole system called Firefly, and they are working with licensed that training. The AI is on licensed imagery to produce imagery and like sort of like stock imagery in the likeness of specific artists. So that will be an interesting space to watch. I think I can Bart Levin's I think is ever since name you can look up what they're doing. I think in terms of like, where this is gonna stand is like there's a lot of folks who are bringing this into court right now, mid journey, for example, has taken the likeness of the art style of various artists and I think a lot of that kind of banding together and figuring out what to do with that right now. So I think I would keep watching the lawsuits and I tried to figure out how to, I think, are you looking into using it in your journals?

No, I just I write policy and a newsroom and we've just been doing a lot of work about on AI to images and I just wondered from the lawyers in the room. What what they where they think they're gone.

So I will note that there is a decision just out this week from the federal district court in DC on this exact question. The result in that case was that there was no copyrightability and at least the AI generated material in in that case, but I would just refer you to that case.

Moving Target. I'm sorry, what? I can look it up. Come up afterwards. I'll give it to you.

What's happening in the back?

Two years down the road three years down the road. We have licensed the back trying to record the fact that we have a license for an extra team that has been working towards the either two or three so that we can answer that question three years from now.

That's a great question. To ask an intellectual property attorney.

Yeah

you didn't publish your deal. You said no, no, that's wrong. I'm not gonna publish it. Because it put that back into its system somewhere that nobody can prove. Or like what holds you the answer when this happens?

Yeah, so at least in in chat GPT. There is a there is a system for providing feedback. So you there's like a little kind of thumbs up or thumbs down that it uses to further kind of like fine tune the models. So if you were to give it a thumbs up, then yes, it probably would be more likely to think that that was true. I did not give it a thumbs up. So hopefully, it won't. But I've I've played around with it enough now that the amount of hallucinations is really really high for legal cases. And so I just would not I would just would not even even think about using it in that context.

Where do you think the state pieces are coming from? Are people writing fictitious cases out there and just leaving it for the sake of it or?

No, no and long probably as it has a better take on this but I mean, some of these all of the parties mentioned are parties that frequently litigate FOIA issues. So they're all real entities. And so I think it's more of like an association. It's like, oh, FOIA lawsuits like these types of people are like probably

involved. Yeah, it just probably read through a bunch of many many four year lawsuits and then was like, Okay, this word probably comes up to this group because of this word. And so it has no it. It repeats style, and it repeats form, not content, right. And so that's, that's the thing that makes it kind of tricky, because it sounds like you can trust it, but you can't

do it. Other questions. Like I said, we'll be here at four o'clock for table talk if you want to talk more about public records, scraping AI, all kinds of fun things. And thank you all so much.

All right. Okay, let me find Hold on.

And probably it's like a no brainer, just Google does not I don't know.

So the one that I'm thinking of was for attorneys in particular let's see. If I can find out that

you will probably have to explain it half of the people when you ask them what data I don't know what it will give you PDFs everyone wants to give you PDFs you call back your passion. I think the easiest way to explain it. Yeah. John, John Smith and John Smith are like Dubai, trying to get to John Smith and keep it that way or it's usually an ID. So it's like, and then when Joe Biden comes

you can also this. This is one that is focused

on attorney, but it kind of gets the point. It's it was the American Bar Association. It's called