Hello, and welcome back to so you gotta lifesite degree. We're your host, Frieda and Lisa to lifestyle undergrad students to navigate our future careers. This is episode nine. And we're talking to Dr. Guy three. Vijay Kumar about biotechnology startups. Are you doing today, Lisa? I'm doing good. I've had a pretty interesting month. I will say, one thing that happened was that. So I would say like, last month, I went to this online show this comedian, their name is Dan Smith. They're a Canadian comedian. They're not I wouldn't say they're super, super big. But they're definitely well known. And they're a professional comedian. And so they sent out an email to everyone who went to their October show or something. So they sent out another email for their November show. And they wrote this whole lengthy thing. And then at the end, they wrote a paragraph that said, Have you read this far, feel free to write me back and tell me about how you're doing like for real in any aspect of your life? I mean, I'm currently drinking a Coca Cola, and then a couple more things. And so I took them up on their offer. And they wrote back and said, me, I'm currently feeding my growing obsession with squirrels. You know, they pretend to bury nuts when they think someone is watching them. And also considering buying a sunlamp coming to you December show, Lisa. And they wrote back they wrote back, it's better. Yeah, and keep in mind, this is someone who's like fully in the public eye. Yeah. Like he famous. No, no, no Loki, like genuinely famous. All right. All right. Yeah, there's so nice. Hi, Lisa. I did not know that about squirrels. But I love it. I often think how it's really the tails that make them so whimsical and cute. If it didn't have those amazingly graceful tails, I think I'd be pretty freaked out to see what are essentially twitchy rats jumping from tree to tree. And then a couple of other things. But yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed that. Also, they kept apologising throughout their email for sending an email and the email being so long, but I was like, what, like, this is free comedy, like you're sending me content for free and not even coming to the show.
So yeah, yes, that's fun.
Yeah, I've been studying in the law library, because we have like booked study hubs you can use now. And to get there, I basically cross campus. And it is just completely take it over by score. And you just see them roaming around like there's more squirrels than humans at this point are ridiculous. Or squirrels like the McGill equivalent of pigeons? I think so. Yeah, for sure. And what I've noticed over the last few weeks is that the squirrels are fat, like they really put on some pounds since the pandemic started. Why does it make any sense? Because people are feeding them and there's like, people are feeding them more since the pandemic would be less. It's like kind of backwards. Because usually when there's a lot of people, there's not as many squirrels and now that there's more squirrels coming onto campus, there's people coming just it's actually so bad for them. Like, I want to just constantly yell at people. Feeding the squirrels, I like to you know, the problems you're causing the chaos. Not even just to us like squirrels like their poor digestion. Yeah. In other news, I'm working on a really cool calm sigh final project, in my opinion, we're analysing people's opinions about the US elections from Reddit posts on different reddits. Yeah, like their opinion about how the election went?
Yes, for the most part, but a lot of the posts are just linked news articles. So we're basically analysing the titles to see what the issues are that people care about. Oh, yeah. It's been pretty cool. And this is you're writing code that does this? Yes. But writing the code isn't the whole project. It's also you know, analysing, yeah, sorry, different metrics, and then writing the report. Seems like a big project. Yeah, it's kind of exciting because we're, we got assigned groups, and we're an all female group, but we were saying is like, a little bit rare. But yeah, we get along really well. And we're going to do hackathon together next semester. So I'm pretty excited. Yeah, group name. We don't actually share it for the bio when I'm Oh, three course at ita. They have these little groups. And they have to do this group project together. And we didn't even ask them to do this. But two of my 10 groups just spontaneously named themselves, which I love so much. I don't know if I told you but one of the groups their problem they were talking about, like a way to solve the problem with ticks, I think in certain parts of Ontario, and their name was get this the tick talker. Yeah. Yeah, we did a Case Competition last year with some of my friends. And our group name was the mighty contract. Oh, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. Actually, I feel like that's actually a thing. Oh, Andrea, that has If my mentor knowledge is correct, that's like an abnormal condition involving the spine or something. We're just abnormally mighty, you know? Yep. Yeah. I was gonna say one could argue that also applies to mitochondria.
All right, want to do an interview? Yeah, let's get into it. Guy three is currently a scientist for a scribe therapeutics in San Francisco, California. She holds a Master's of Science in biotechnology from New York University, as well as a PhD in microbiology and immunology from the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai University in New York. She is currently working to design CRISPR therapeutics for gene editing. Thank you for joining us today, guys. Thank you for having me. It's an honour. Just to start things off, can you just give us like a brief overview of what your job looks like and what it is?
Sure. And as you mentioned, I did my masters in biotechnology and my U. And then I decided to go on and do my PhD in virology. So my PhD entailed designing and creating viral vectors for oncolytic therapy, and using them in combination with checkpoint inhibitors, which has kind of revolutionised the field of cancer therapies and antibody treatment that has kind of become a big hitter, in terms of what are modalities that are available for cancer treatment now. So what I do right now is, as a scientist, as great therapeutics is basically taking those virology skill sets and taking inspiration from different viral families that exist in nature and seeing what can be used to create unique novel delivery platforms to deliver CRISPR therapeutics in the human body.
Wow, that is super cool. And that kind of leads into the second question we were hoping to ask you, which is, if you could just tell us a bit more specifically, what kind of work you're doing with CRISPR. Right now,
I'm sure I could talk about it at a very high level. This is Jennifer Doudna, his latest venture. And so we came out of stealth mode. right around the time she won the Nobel Prize, which is a very serendipitous time for us to come out of stealth mode. So for those of you who does not know do not know what stealth mode means. It means when a company is developing a product under a temporary curtain of secrecy. And so coming out of stealth mode is basically us announcing to the world that here is a product that we have been working on. Here is the technology now we are ready to participate in several cooperations with various biotech and industry partners. So that's what coming out of stealth Ford means. And it's a it's a very exciting time for us. So at Sky therapeutics, what I do, as a biologist is basically, again, you know, taking inspiration from different bio families and new viruses are the best molecular and cell biologists out there, because they have basically evolved with human beings for millions of years. So they know the ins and outs of how to attack a particular cell type. So basically, what I do is look at viruses see what they do best infect cells, and figure out what are the compartments of viruses that I can take and engineer these delivery platforms so that I could then package them with these CRISPR therapeutic modalities and specifically, deliver this CRISPR therapeutic modalities to cell types, for example, neuronal cell types along cell types, or liver cell types. So in terms of these editing modalities, what the major focus right now is delivery, because delivery is a key component that we need to figure out before these therapies can go from bench to bedside. So at a high level, that's what I'm involved in. I've worked with a very amazing team of other biologists and molecular biologists trying to figure out what can we tinker with? What components that can we take from different viral families? What can we put together to create this delivery modality?
That sounds really cool. Yeah. You mentioned that delivery is kind of a big issue right? Now. Could you maybe walk us through an example of what what what's the challenge with that and how scribe therapeutics is dealing with that? Sure.
I mean, for example, you want to create a treatment for cystic fibrosis, right? So cystic fibrosis is something that affects your lungs. So how do you specifically target the lung epithelial cells and not for example, your cardiac cells or your heart cells, or your endothelial cells, which is the cells that form your blood vessels? Right, so how do you specifically targeted CRISPR therapeutics to your lung cells and not to other cell types within your body? Because that's where issues of specificity comes in. You don't want to have off target effects, you know, with your therapy modality. So that's where delivery comes into play. Like how do you how do you specifically target certain cell types and again, this is where you know Engineering comes into play and looking at what nature has done because nature has figured us out long before we are figuring ourselves out. So for example, this is a purely theoretical example. For example, if you want to do lung cells, what are the viruses that attack lung cells? So you have the influenza viruses, right you have, for example, SARS Coronavirus, do right now very great and infecting specific cell types within the long compartment. And then you look at what are how do the viruses mediate the specificity? Right? For example, glycoproteins, right? So that's something we could do create specificity by looking at viruses, and taking those compartments and trying to put it into your delivery platforms and thereby conferring specificity. So in a broad sense, that is how, one way people are trying to attack that problem of delivery within CRISPR therapeutics. And you know, they have you have other ways in which you could target specificity, for example, you could use a promoter that is specific to a specific cell type, right, so that your modality is only active within that cell that has that specific promoter. So there are several different ways in which you could attack it. And viruses are cool in that they have figured it out. And we were just looking at it and trying to figure out how have they figured out and trying to gain inspiration from that?
Yeah, that's definitely super cool. And thank you for that summary. So that was kind of the big picture overview of what some of your goals are. But what is your work look like on a weekly basis? On a daily basis? Do you lead a team? Do you work nine to five? Do you do experiments during the day? Are you on the computer?
Yeah, that's so that's a great question. So in a biotech startup, what I like about a biotech startup is that you're given the opportunity to wear multiple different hats, you're not just a scientist at the bench, you are, you know, you're an integral part of that company, because a biotech startup usually has anywhere between 10 to 20, people starting off, and so your voice does matter a lot in that company. So starting off, I would say, you know, my time split between science at the bench, and in between meetings would be 7030, like 70% of my time is spent being at the bench doing experiments, planning out experiments that I need to get done for the week, as well as planning out experiments for an intern that's working with me right now on getting these experiments done. And then 30% of my time is spent in meetings, meetings with other programme leads charting out what are the experiments that are getting done this week? What are the results? What's the data? What can we infer from the data? How can we troubleshoot what didn't work? And so the meetings are very important, especially at this early stage, because, you know, it's a very data driven process, especially because, you know, data is key to a yearly biotech startup, because you need to know very intimately what is the product that you're developing? Or what are the inflection points that are coming up purely during that product development. Because time is again, very key. And regularly biotech startups, I would say 7030, in terms of time at the bench and time in meetings. But more than that, it's also like, you are given some interesting projects in the early biotech startup, for example, when I first joined, one of the things that I had to figure out was like what kind of lab coats are needed in a BSL one or a BSL two setting? And what are the vendors that I need to look into? To get these lab coats or procure these lab coats? How much do you need? Another thing was like, since I had a lot of in vivo, in global means, working with animals, since I did work with animals a lot during both my NYU as well as my Sinai, Ph. D time, one of the initiatives that I was involved in was setting up a functional operating vivarium. So reading into what goes into setting up a vivarium what are the equipments that you need bedding that you need for the animals, the kind of cages, the food and the water that you need? I mean, you know, that was kind of fun for me in being involved, you know, reading it up, setting it up, contacting vendors, and actually, you know, being in charge of operational vivarium. Now, you know, other people have come on to the company that I've taken, you know, taking control of the Vibranium. And now they are in charge of leading the brain, but being involved in the process of setting it up from scratch was actually a fun process for me. So I think in a biotech startup, it's, you know, yeah, you do spend a lot of time at the bench, but also you do spend time actually building the company from scratch, which is, which is fun, and exciting.
Yeah, that does sound super cool. And it seems like you have a lot of responsibilities in your role. Like, it seems like you are responsible for some decisions. And so we were wondering if you are kind of overseeing other workers at the company as well.
Um, so in, you know, in being an early stage biotech, you again, you You do have to take initiative. And you do have to step up to the plate and, you know, take ownership of all of your projects. And right now I had to have an intern, an undergraduate student working with me, helping me with all of the projects. But again, it's a very collaborative environment where everyone is involved in everyone's project. And you're involved in not only your project, but you're also involved in meetings in other projects where, you know, you might be like, okay, you know, if I could help you with doing these experiments, if you want help with that, or these are my insights into why this is not working, or why this might be working the way it is. So I would say you do have an impact, all of your actions do have an impact in the early stage, biotech. That's why it's also important in the type of people that you recruit at that stage, because that has a huge impact, not only how the science progresses, but also the culture of that company, if you know what I mean.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm actually really surprised to hear that you spend 70% of your working time at the bench. That's really interesting.
Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, again, you know, the scientists you need, the scientists play a critical role in the beginning stages of the company, because you know, you have a major role to play in developing the product, which is important for raising Additional rounds of funding to take the biotech from a startup stage to you know, a late stage biotech. So yeah, scientists do play a really important role. And you do spend, you know, significant amount of time at the bench.
Yeah, that's awesome. from your past responses that already I can kind of already see some similarities with traditional startups or non biotech startups, would you care to expand on kind of what commonalities and differences are between the biotech startup culture or timeline or investors versus like a traditional tech startup would be?
Okay. Yeah, sure. That's, again, a great question. I think that the main differences between, for example, say, a tech startup and a biotech startup, I think one would be the capital, right? Because biotech innovation frequently takes years of research and testing before there is a potential for return on capital. Right, whereas the potential for return is much more quicker with a tech startup. I think that's one of the main differences. The second difference is the technology. Because in a tech company, the company usually develops a software. And then you figure out what are the problems where you could apply that software as a solution, whereas in biotech, it's kind of flipped. Because you know what the problem is, the disease is the problem, it is very well established, you have to figure out how to develop a product a drug that addresses this problem or this market. Okay. That's the I think those are the two main differences. The third difference is the regulation. Yes, every industry does have regulations, and there are numerous government agencies enforcing those regulations. But when it comes to biotechnology, regulation is the law and FDA is a big enforcer of that, right? And the difference is that in the tech industry, monitoring is not a big step in the process. Another thing would be barriers to entry, right? Because when you think of tech entrepreneurs, you think of like young, vibrant people, Harvard dropouts, or something that working out of garages and like coming up with these disruptive technologies. Whereas when you think about biotechs, you need someone with a strong scientific background. This usually entails five to six years of PhD, maybe four to five years of postdoc after that. So there is a you know, with tech, there is lower barrier to entry, I would say, I think it was a patent. I think patents are much more integral for biotechs. Because you know, if you hold the key patents is impossible for another competitor to get into your market space until that patent expires. Whereas with tech, you know, it's kind of different. I think, once you establish a market, it's very easy for competitors to come in and copycat and chip away at your share of that market. So I think that's another major difference between biotech and tech startups. But you know, so another thing is that, about 20 years ago, if you asked anyone what a biotech is, they would have defined it as a company that uses live organisms such as bacteria, or enzymes to manufacture drugs for us. pharma companies are companies that use chemicals or you know, artificial materials to create ducks. But that definition has kind of gone out the window right now, because biologics do constitute majority of the portfolio of any pharma company that you see Case in point, k Trudeau is, which is a checkpoint inhibitor. It's an anti PD one antibody that has revolutionised the field of cancer treatment. It is owned by Merck pharmaceuticals, and it's expected to bring about $15 billion in sales just in 2020 alone. So you know, that categorization of biotechs being biological companies and pharmaceutical companies being chemical companies has kind of become outdated now. biotechs and by startups are, you know, high risk ventures that always push the boundaries, whether it's developing new signs, or looking at issues from a pioneering perspective and bringing innovation into play. So biotechs have, you know, basically become the r&d sector of the modern biopharma industry and pharmaceutical companies kind of excel at commercialising these products and bringing them from bench to bedside through Phase One and two, three clinical trials and marketing it. Okay, so there's like a symbiotic relationship between biotech and pharma companies, where biotech is usually involved in the preclinical innovative aspects of bringing new therapies, and pharma companies are involved in bringing these therapies from bench to bedside. So what is a biotech startup is basically a hierarchy of venture, where perhaps, you know, most of the riskier and truly innovative experimental efforts are carried out. And the stage of the biotech startup is usually intimately connected with the funding that it has at the moment. So as you know, startups can't, you know, they have to seek funding throughout every phase of building a company from the formation of an idea to a possible listing of an IPO. And there are several different types of funding rounds that is open to a startup, which extends from pre seed funding to series A, B, C funding, and in some cases, to D and E funding. So you know, let's just go through what these different funding rounds mean. So pre seed funding is a first date of funding that startups have access to. So when you seek funding at the stage, most startups will only consist of a few team members, or sometimes just a founder of the company. So the focal point at this stage is the creation of the proof of concept or the prototype that you have. And the funding at the stage can help you hire people that can assist you in growing to the next stage of funding. And the people that usually invest in your company at the stage are usually incubators or angel investors. So after that, you have the seed round of funding, which you know, allows you to grow to the point where you can begin to raise additional funding through the most common forms of series A, B, and C funding, which you might have heard associated with biotech startups. So you know, the, the funding at the stage had the seed stage is designed to help startups to move past their initial state stages of concept development into product development. And, you know, in mass majority of instant instances, angel investors will provide funding during this round. But nowadays, venture capital firms are more and more involved in providing seed round investments. Okay. So next after that, you know, you have the series a funding, which you must have, you know, which you would have heard most associated with biotech startups. So series, a funding is focused almost entirely on showing that the product that you have, or the technology that you have developed will fit into the market, okay. The funding that you raise at the stage of your startup should be used to bring whatever business model you have to fruition. And the most common elements of growth during the stage involves actually developing the products. So at this stage is when venture capital firms get mostly involved because they are the main investors in a series a funding and the series a funding, investments can range anywhere from $10 million, to maybe 50 to $60 million. So that's a huge amount of money that comes in during series A. And then you have Series B funding, which is when your company has already proven market viability, and now it needs to expand. And that expansion can be through the types of employees that you want to hire. Or if you want to expand in areas of marketing or business development, or you want to expand into different market segments, meaning you want to go into different disease types, for example, right. And, you know, at the at the stage, venture capitalists that are involved in funding late stage startups, that's when they get involved at the stage in bringing together your Series B funding. And lastly, you have the series c funding. So the series c funding is primarily sought when a startup wants to take part in large scale expansions. And this means you want to move into new market you want to acquire, for example, and other early stage biotech, which you think would give you an edge over your competitors, or you want to expand into an international market, right? So once you reach series c funding your your company is set, right you have displayed You are a player in the field, you're here to stay. And typically there is a lot of VC firms or hedge funds that want to invest in your company at that stage because now you have proven yourself. And you know, you're not a risky investment. So that usually involves about, you know, anywhere between 50 to $100 million at that stage. So these are the different stages that a biotech startup you know, goes Through. And that is usually how you define a biotech startup. Have they achieved? series A, B, or C funding? So that's how, if that makes sense to you?
Yeah. Yeah, that was a very thorough explanation. And it seems like you have knowledge about both the business aspect of your research as well as the science itself. And that makes me want to ask, what is it that got you so interested in the biotech industry?
So yeah, that's, that's a very, that's a very good question. So I think, you know, you know, having done my masters in biotechnology, I was already interested in that aspect. And I think, from a personal viewpoint, my mom is a doctor, and my dad is an entrepreneur, so I kind of had that entrepreneurial spirit, you know, a
good mix of those amazing.
So yeah, so I, you know, I think I think I'm doing both of them justice, and what I'm trying to pursue right now. And during my PhD, I did work, one of my project was very closely associated with a pharmaceutical company. And, you know, I got a very good insight into how a pharma company works. And I did pursue, you know, I did, I did go for some interview rounds with some pharma companies, and it got, like two offers with them. But then the thing with biotech is that, you know, I was just attracted to the entrepreneurial spirit and being part of an initiative at such an early stage and having an input, and having an impact on the growth of that company. I think that kind of spoke to me. And, you know, it was just the right time for me to get into the gene editing field into the CRISPR therapeutics field, because, you know, it's I've been in this company for about a year, and I was like, you know, this is the time, this is the perfect time for me to jump into this field. And I think those were the factors that influenced me to make the move. And, of course, the Bay Area is a biotech hub, where it's the perfect place to move if you want to be involved in the biotech field. So yeah, those are the main reasons why I decided to make the jump, you know,
speaking of new and up and coming technologies, what are some current bio technologies that are really exciting you and that you think will have a great impact besides your own work?
Yeah, that's a given.
So let's let's just say that in 2020, the year of the pandemic, I would say regeneron, which has developed the antibody therapy, and Madonna, which has developed the mRNA vaccine for covid 19. I think those are my top two biotechnology companies, and it just showcases how a biotech can jump in, in you know, all hands on deck at during times of crisis and actually pull together to bring the most passionate and intelligent minds on this problem and come up with a solution at such a such a tight timeframe. You know, you have a vaccine in matter of months, which has gone through preclinical and clinical development, and I think that is just amazing and just showcases the force that biotechs have in the modern biopharma industry. So I would say regeneron and moderna, because of the times that we are in, in if you look at cancer therapy or tea in a programmable cell therapies, like car T cells, I would say Arsenal bio, in SF and then Gilead, which bones kite pharma, and awarness would be my top three in that field. And of course, in CRISPR, therapeutics, I would say, you know, I'm biassed to ascribe therapeutics, but in addition described therapeutics, I would say word therapeutics, being CRISPR therapeutics, intellian. editors, I think all of them are doing amazing work. And it's just going to be exciting to see how the field of gene editing is going to move forward in the coming years.
Yeah, and going more into your interest about biotech. I think growing up, I had this view of like, all companies are evil and money and greed and all that thing. And yeah, I read a book some time back, it was about the founding of Twitter. And that I think, from that book, I took like that excitement of starting a company and wanting to change the world and that kind of thing. But that being said, a lot of people do want to go to Silicon Valley, they want to be like that super scrappy out of college person who, like shell talks the market and gets super rich off of it. But then when you consider that in the realm of biotech, there are potentially some ethical considerations because like, you know, like, is it ethical to profit off of like curing a disease? And so I was wondering for you, like, what is it that drives you to work in biotech? What is it that really interests you about entrepreneurism?
I think, you know, as I said, biotech has become the more the r&d sector of the modern biopharma industry. I think it just because there's a higher risk of venture, I think more people are inclined to look at unmet needs in terms of diseases that people have not been working on. You know, so I think that is the major focus because if you look at pharmaceutical industries, most of them are not willing to invest in higher risk technologies. But if you want to target these unmet disease needs, that's where you need to invest and be, you know, innovation is key to answering those questions and coming up with new therapeutic modalities Case in point Carty cells in the beginning stages. No one believed Carty cells would work, but now look at it, it has like a 90% cure rate, right. But yes, the cost rate is a major factor. But then you have to bring in a think about what goes into manufacturing these therapeutic modalities. It's a very, very expensive process. So I don't I don't think we have figured out how to make these therapies cost effective yet. And so there's a lot of development going into it. Because if the if there's new innovation in terms of process development and manufacturing, right, that's also key in driving down cost. And that's again, where biotechs come in to come up with innovative solutions, because he has r&d is a major budget sync. But once you come up with therapeutic modalities, that's where process development and manufacturing comes into play, because you have to figure out ways in which you could actually manufacture these therapies. Because if you if you can't do that, then the patients are the ones that lose out at the end. But for me, I would say yes, there are some ethical dilemmas. But I would say it's simply satisfying to build something from the ground up, you know, to have your voice heard to make a noticeable impact on the company, you know, while building new innovations and working with, you know, highly intelligent, creative people around you. And you know, it's just, it's just a fast paced working environment where you are fueled by real passion, not just for the science, but also for the patients down the line that you will impact receiving these therapies that he working on.
Yeah, that's, that's a great answer. Thank you for for sharing that with us. Definitely seems like something that really drives you. But the question is, have you always felt this way? And what if you could walk us through like your path from when you were like young and fresh and just starting your undergrad? through new masters? And then your PhD? Because it's a long journey? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of just the facts of what you did?
Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. Happy to. So I grew up in I was born in the Middle East. I grew up there for 10 years, and then moved to India and grew up there for another 10 years. And then I moved here in 2000, moved to New York City in 2009, and lived there for 11 years. So I grew up in different countries. And one of the early influencers for me was again, I mentioned my mom as a doctor. And most of my aunts and uncles are either doctors or scientists. And so you know, summers in high school or summers during my undergrad I went and did science in their in their laps, I would do summer internships at various academic and industry locations throughout India. And for me, that was a major driver for me to get into science and love science. So yeah, I did my Bachelors of technology in biotechnology. And then I just decided to go abroad for my master's I was considering UK and the US and then I got a scholarship to in my use of bad decision was made for me. So I came to MIT to do my masters. And I started working in a lab and my you working on stem cells and bone biology and looking at pulsed electromagnetic fields and how that can be used to regenerate stem cells and drive it into osteoblasts or bone cells. And the main objective of that study was to see if these pulse ultra magnetic fields can be used for patients with spinal cord disorders or patients who had gone through an accident or have had a suffered spinal cord. So that kind of like again, being involved in something that had a translational potential was very impactful for me. And then during that time, my academic advisor it and my you suggested that I pursue research and because she was like, you know, you do have a scientific mind, you should do your PhD. So at that point, I didn't think I had enough scientific expertise or you know, skill sets to go into a PhD. So I decided to get a research position at Weill Cornell Medical College working in a cancer biology lab, where we worked on breast cancer and looked at, you know, some of the most severe forms of breast cancer such as triple negative breast cancer, so studying that I was kind of depressed by the stage of cancer therapy at that point, because you know, these are very devastating forms of breast cancer and very high mortality rates. And so, again, I wanted to go into the translational aspect of science, like what can what are the types of therapies that I can develop for cancer, so I decided to go into virology where I joined Dr. Peter Palacio lab where I worked on developing these Nova Newcastle disease virus based on political factors for cancer therapy, so I wouldn't say, you know, I had a very strategic plan in terms of my scientific career, I just went where the science took me and where the opportunities took me. So towards the end of my PhD tenure at the policy lab, you know, I kind of made a journey to bay area to visit a friend and she kind of introduced me to the CEO of scribe therapeutics, and he got talking, and he was like, Oh, you should, you know, consider joining scribe therapeutics, and I, you know, I was like, okay, fine, let's, let's do it. Let's, I'll just move to the Bay Area. And there you go. So, I would say just go where the science takes you and go where the opportunities take you, you know, I didn't have a very strategic plan in terms of what I would be doing in 10 years. When I got into science, I would say,
yeah, that's, that takes guts, New York to California. Yeah, I'm so jealous of how that job opportunity that worked out.
You know, so, you know, luck has a major factor, like serendipity and being at the right place at the right time. But you know, again, luck favours the prepared mind, just just be prepared for whatever life offers up for you. Nice. Yeah.
actually want to ask, I think I missed a little bit in the middle. Did you say that you worked just as like in research before doing your PhD? Or did you transition directly from your masters? Do your PhD?
No, I worked for three years as a research associate in breast cancer lab at Weill Cornell Medical College. How? Yeah, so yeah, again, I took a lot of detours, you know, coming out of NYU, I wasn't really confident in my research skill sets. And, you know, also wanted to beef up my resume a bit before I applied for PhD programmes. So I think those were the two reasons why decided to work bet doing some, you know, basic science research, which I think I would highly recommend for anyone who wants to just pursue science and see if they actually like it, because you know, PhD is the big investment. And, you know, you have to really like doing it to get into it. If you don't like it, you will just be miserable for five to six hours. So I think that kind of really helped me solidify my plan to do a PhD. Those three years. Yeah, that leads directly into our next question of like,
what was your experience doing a PhD? How did you find it? Yeah, great question. I
think, you know, again, figure out why you want to do a PhD, is it for the right reasons. For me, the city mattered a lot. I wanted to stay in New York City. So I only apply to colleges and universities within New York City. And then I applied, I was very interested in biology. So I applied to virology programmes. And once I got into Mount Sinai, which is one of the best biology programmes in the country, then you have to figure out who do you want to work with. And so I don't know how it works in at McMaster or in Canada. But here in the US, you have to do rotations, a minimum of like three to four rotations in different labs before you select a lab that you want to do your PhD in. So I kind of selected based on broadly on what the projects were. And then you do like about two to four months of rotations in each lab. You know, primarily you try to figure out what is your relationship with the mentor? What is your equation with him Kent, could you see yourself working with that mentor for the next four to five years, right. And I would say the main thing is select the people in the lab not not select a lab for its project like because I think that the culture of the lab is a major factor in whether you will be happy in that lab or not. So I will say I had a fantastic time. And during my PhD I had a great relationship with my mentor. I loved what I was doing. Because I was part of this major collaboration with a pharmaceutical company where I took this project from inception to making all these viruses and testing them out and working very closely with the pharma company seeing it proceed from a preclinical project into a clinical stage project. I think that was a very unique and special experience. And so I would say I I absolutely loved my PhD experience. I had a great relationship with my mentor which I think is a big factor in whether or not you like your PhD experience and project come second don't select a lab based on what they're working on. Select the lab based on how you feel working with them day to day because you know you could you could develop scientific curiosity and interest in a project once you start working on it. It doesn't that doesn't matter. I think being happy going to the lab every day matters a lot.
Yeah, that's some good advice. That is something that you know, I think a lot of people our age in science are considering do I want to do a PhD because like you said it's a huge time commitment and the length of its it seems to keep stretching longer and longer. And you know, I know myself because I'm interested in cancer research in industry and in biotech, sometimes a PhD because addition is listed as being required for a higher role a supervisory role. So in your case, do you think that having a PhD will enable you to go further in the biotech field than if you didn't have it?
I would say yes, I would say yes, you do get more opportunities, the ceiling is a bit more higher for someone with a PhD. And for someone who does not have a PhD, you know, it's not a requested because I have a lot of friends in in biotech field with a master's degree, doing really, really good. Like they are like scientists, project leads. And so I don't I don't think it's a it's an absolute requirement. I think a lot of biotechs are kind of moving away from the PhD requirement field, right? Because ultimately, when we're looking at resumes, what matters is also the experience, because if you're a Master's candidate coming in with a lot of PhD, a lot of industry experience, that matters a lot more than, for example, a fresh PhD grad with no industry experience. So I think I think that's where, you know, it doesn't, at some point, I think industry kind of Trumps your degree requirements, I would say, but yes, yes, having a PhD certainly helps. But you know, it's not an absolute requirement, I would say,
that's really helpful to know for sure. And that kind of leads into the next question of like, what sorts of things do you look for when you're hiring someone new? Of course, your
experience, number one, it also depends on what kind of team that they are getting recruited into. So certain teams will work on certain, for example, deceased targets, for example, if there's a liver target, or a long target, does this person's past experiences align with what we need in in that role? So experience is number one. Number two is, you know, the culture fit. Because I think in again, in a biotech startup, the culture is a major factor in how we assess someone that you're trying to recruit into the company. And that again, culture will be a major factor in whether that company's successful down the line or not. So again, experience degree requirements. Yeah, you do have to have at least a bachelor's, a Masters would be great PhD would be great if it aligns with what you're looking for. And then finally, a cultural fit.
Nice. So I think across the internet, this has been like an age old kind of question, or like frustration that some people have had is like, what if you are a new graduate with no experience? What What would be your recommendation for this?
I think, you know, we have a lot of research associates in our company, then they are the backbone of the company, I would say they are amazing. And I'm ever grateful to have them in our company, because they're so hard working. And most of these research associates were recruited while they were undergraduate students. So you know, through word of mouth, I would say for example, they, you know, summer internships they would do at our company, and after they graduate, they would just join our company. So I don't think you know, undergraduate students should be so worried about getting into a company, because I think if you, for example, I would say when I'm looking at resumes, of potential undergraduate students join our company, what I'm looking for is, have they done, you know, lab internships during their summer holidays? Or have they worked in a lab, because as you know, as long as they can do basic tissue culture, or like PCR cloning, I feel like, you know, more hands, the better. So I don't think, you know, undergraduate students should be that worried about it, just go to a lab during a summer break, get some training, you build up your resume, and show that he could do science or, you know, read up on science and understand science, because that's all we're looking for in New research associates had been wanting to join our company. Hmm,
yeah. And then speaking about company culture, and liking who you work with and enjoying your days, can you tell us a bit more about the almost hour by hour of what your days are, like, wake up, I
usually wake up around seven, and then I work out and then my meditations and all of that, and then get ready for work. And so because as COVID, you know, I have a co worker that comes and picks me up in the morning, I don't drive since I, you know, I lived in New York City for 11 years and never put a car. I don't know how to drive. And I know I get a lot. Yeah, you know, a lot of people in the Bay Area don't understand why I don't drive but then. So I have a co worker who's kind enough to pick me up in the morning. So we get to work around 939 930. And then, you know, we usually what I do is I have a list of things that I need to get accomplished every day that I sit down and work on during on Sunday. So I have a list of things that I need to get done on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then I go through the checklist of what I need to get done. Start doing experiments that need to get done as soon as I get in. And then you have a lot of meetings peppered throughout the day. So you know, you have to like strategize how many hours will this experiment take? Can I attend this meeting right after I get this experiment done? So I would say each day is strategizing. What are the experiments you can get done? What are the meetings that you need to attend, and then planning out each and every second of the day, I wouldn't, you don't get a lot of downtime, I would say, you know, lunch breaks or working lunch breaks, you are reading up on something or you're in the middle of a meeting while you're eating your sandwich. So it's it's a it's a jam packed day. But that's that's where a biotech startup gets its culture from, right. It's a fast paced environment where you need to be on your toes, and you need to be bringing in the data, because that's how the company goes forward.
And then on an average day, what do you think would be the time that you would kind of leave work around seven things? Seven, 730. Okay. Yeah. All right.
I mean, there have been one or two days when you were there till 10 or 11, in the night doing some cloning, but that only happens when you are there is a huge deadline coming up. And you need to get in the data as soon as possible, you know, but I would say there are those a few fewer and far in between. So, you know, it's it's definitely a jam packed day. But I wouldn't say it's a crazy, crazy work life
balance. It's good. It's good. Yeah. And I guess the last thing I was wondering is, what do you see yourself doing in the future? Do you think you're gonna stay at scribe for as long as you can? Or do you want to? I mean, I don't know if you want to say, but are there things you're interested in being a part of, um,
I mean, I'm enjoying my ride. So far, it's quite therapeutic. So I've been in this company for a year now. And I've seen it grow and blossom, and being part of this mentor has has been great, I would say, I don't have any complaints about it, I'm learning a lot every day, you're learning something new. And what I love about this is I'm also surrounded by very, very intelligent people, like, you know, you know, sometimes I have an imposter syndrome. It's like, How did I end up in this company, but you know, that's what I like, I like, how much I'm learning and like, the fact that I'm learning constantly from the people around me, and I'll see where the future takes me. And, you know, that's, that's, that's one of my driving principles, just just to, you know, go with the flow, go where the future takes you. And I still want to be involved in science, no matter where it is, whether it be at scribe, you know, 10 years down the line, or whether it be at a different company, you know, driving projects, driving, you know, different therapeutic modalities. And I'm also interested in the business side, so maybe I'll jump into the VC field. You know, I'm very open to whatever opportunities are out there.
But so interesting to hear that, like, you get upon imposter syndrome, because our female introduction to you was basically Lisa's prof being like, this person is super amazing. Yeah.
syndrome is real. I think everyone, at what stage of our career VR at we all have that, like, you know, how did we end up here
are this right? For sure. Yeah. Yeah, so we're about to end things off, but before we do, is there anything else that you want to add? Um,
I would say if anyone is considering joining a startup, I would say just do your research, like, figure out how strongly you believe in the science and its market potential. You know, ask about the financials, how much money has the company raised? Since its founding? How much cash does it have in the bank? How long is the company's operating runway, you know, think about the culture, how well it aligns with your values, think about the leadership team and the overall network and support ecosystem. But you know, more importantly, know about your long term and short short term goals like also know your what your risk tolerance is ahead of time, because working in a biotech is inherently risky, but you know, the, the rewards are great as well, you know, there's a lot more growth potential, but a company that is itself growing, you take more responsibilities, you're trying your hand at opportunities, you'd never get in a more established company, you're learning new things, you're bulking up your CV, so even if this you know, company doesn't work out, you have built a new set of skills that he can take into your next job, not to mention the insights that he get from working at such a company provides. But ultimately, I think it's just satisfying building something from the ground up to have your voice heard to make a noticeable impact in the company and being part of a very passionate and intelligent group of people that are working towards a solution ultimately, for patients that have an unmet need. So I think those are my you know, parting words. Just think about it and just go for it.
Yeah, that's that's good advice. And thank you so much for your time. It was so nice to chat with you. I feel like I learned a lot. No problem. It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me. If you would like to keep updated with Guthrie's work you can follow her on Twitter using at guy three underscore v i JAYK which we will also link in the show notes This episode is sponsored by Brittany Mr. Britney Mr is a small business started in 2016 and owned by Brittany. Brittany is currently an undergrad science student with a passion for all things artistic, her mission is to bring you a high quality art that is affordable as art should be enjoyed by everybody and accessible to all i Brittany Mr. You can find one of a kind art prints ranging from adorable baby animals to minimalistic nature pieces all hand painted with love. The art is available on a range of sizes, and also as stickers and even on the canvas. They also love taking custom orders. So if you don't see something that's exactly for you, you can just message them and work something out. I myself have purchased the baby penguin prints which I printed out on cardstock paper to display in my room, as well as a couple of mini prints of a handful of blueberries and a watermelon slice. The quality of the art is truly amazing. Everything is very cute. And Britney is super accommodating. If you use the coupon code life cy Li f e s ci, you can get 15% off the whole shop, check them out at Brittany mr.etsy.com or follow them on Facebook and Instagram at the links in the show notes. I feel like guy three is literally me or vice versa. Because I also on Sundays make a list of all the things I need to do for a week. Yeah, and and you made fun of me for this when I told you about it a couple of weeks ago. But what No, I was not making fun of you. I was trying to compare how we do things.
prove my system if need me.
Yeah, I mean, you were like confused. You were like, but what if you don't finish everything from No, no, that was not confusion that was like this is a problem I face and I want to know how you deal with. I see. Yeah, la delay is the answer. Yeah, I think it was also kind of funny when you really got into our schedule, because I know both of us just love hearing like how schedules happen and how people live their lives. I think it's so relevant to your to your overall happiness. Like I know I would I don't think I would be happy if I like had to get up at 6am to be honest every day. That would be kind of horrible. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just cool to hear, I think. So one of my friends is actually going to be starting a biotech startup. Oh, wait, like on her own. Um, she basically entered this competition with a team. And so we're gonna be the team that's like started after graduation. Basically this nexus? Yeah.
What is this Marina?
Yes.
Oh, my goodness. She's actually like, full time. I don't know. She's gonna do a full time but I think they're definitely gonna go ahead with it because they've gotten really good feedback. What is their? What is their their thing? That's a great question. No, it's like your best friend. Yeah. Um, okay, I officially feel fine about you not knowing about my poetry. Oh, I didn't know that was something you're like, not fine. Oh, no, I'm not like seriously not fine about it. That was a joke. Okay. Okay. Like we've uncovered a sore spot. Yeah.
More on that later.
But yeah, I feel like reading that book about Twitter, hatching, Twitter actually is super changed my opinion on startups and maybe kind of understand why people are into that kind of business venture. Like, what are your preconceptions about startup culture? Yeah, I think you brought this up during the interview with guy three as well. But yeah, I think it's just about the longer you drink the Kool Aid, you know, you know about startups or like, but I think I threw did bring up. She casually mentioned how tech startups are not as highly regulated. And I think that's where a lot of like the icky feelings about tech startups for me, start, whereas for biotech startups, I'm like, yeah, this is a super regulated industry. I have no qualms about this. Uh huh. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I feel like I can make an argument and convince myself that it's ethical, and it's, like, actually good for me to work a certain kind of job. I feel like I could probably convince myself to work for an oil company. If you know, like the mental gymnastics you can do to convince yourself that you're still staying within the frame, your framework of the world. Not that I'm saying that we're ganna biotech is like evil or anything, just that when you have this mindset that changes like when you go from thinking all businesses are evil to Like, okay, businesses have value and they allow products to be created. There is some degree of okay, but like, Did I just realised something that I didn't know before? Or have I just grown up? And I care about money more? So I don't know if you have any thoughts about that? Yeah, actually, I've had this very similar conversation with one of my friends, actually, twice. Now, I think. And both times, I think we've just come to the conclusion the first time wasn't enough. Yeah. I think both as we've come to the conclusion that what we think is ethical work is just super subjective and varies from person to person. So I don't think there's like really an objective way to, I mean, okay, that's a whole other conversation. But
yeah, I
think in terms of your job, it's just a subjective measure. I mean, I think just like, very broadly, I think this is more like an issue with capitalism than it is like a specific Yeah. And I think like, our generation is, like one of the ones able to see kind of the pitfalls with this whole setup that we have going. We're not the only generation. Yeah, 100% agree. we're not the only ones. But I think we see it a lot, especially with like climate change and stuff like that. So I think it's not exactly an industry issue. It's more of like, a more fundamental issue. Yeah, yeah. This one idea that I encountered in the past couple years that I really latched on to, and now I have, like, fully integrated into my view of the world, is the idea that you do not need to stay loyal to the person you used to be. So for example, if I used to be the kind of person who was super into YouTube and followed, like, 30 channels and watch all their videos, sideshow, and yeah, Kurtz was act and all these things, I can change, like, that's fine, I can change, I can no longer be that person. And I no longer am, and I don't need to feel like I'm like losing my true self because your like, true self evolves. And the way that kind of connects to our discussion is changing my worldview about businesses in general is okay, like, I'm allowed to change my opinions about big things. But then again, like it's it comes back to the same idea of like, Okay, well, am I actually just more informed now? Or am I just becoming an adult? I don't know. Yeah, I find that very difficult in terms of career decisions, which I think I think kind of touched on as well actually about having flexibility in your career decisions and going from where you are, instead of like mapping out, you know, 30 years into the future. Yeah, Frieda, I'm trying to get better advice. I'm trying to get better at it. But yeah, I definitely do feel a thing of I should be loyal to the interest I had 10 years ago, even though I knew nothing about anything at the time. Oh, that's so I do not feel that way with career whatsoever. Yeah, I feel like that's something for me, that can totally change. Also, what do you mean that you feel like you need to stay loyal to 10 years ago, free? Because you're literally planning on changing from life site into data science? I think one of the reasons I didn't do that sooner was just this, this idea that I wanted to go down this path, and I needed to stick by that. Yeah, I think there's also an aspect of I feel like I don't want to have wasted my undergrad or like, wasted these years. I want to Yeah, that's the sunk cost fallacy of like continuing down a path because you've already gone down in a decent amount. Yeah, it's not the same concept as gambling. Yep. Yeah, so if you want to not gamble away your future. Just kidding. Just kidding. That's not a good analogy. Um, what do you feel about the idea of being able to have multiple roles within a company, I know that this is something that I think Kara touched on, because she mentioned that gilliat, or at least her branch isn't huge, huge. And so she's able to have a bit of flexibility in her role. So there's a general theme that if you work in a super big company, you're gonna have a very like, rigidly defined role, and then vice versa for very small companies. So how do you feel about that on your end? Like, do you think you're someone who would like one of the two extremes? Or do you think you're much more in the middle? I think I do prefer the startup culture of having multiple hats, just because you get to learn a bunch more than you would in a very narrowly defined role. And I think one of my more fundamental understanding of how to do a job well is to just build more skills, and you have more flexibility to do that. And also, I think, if you mess up, it's a little bit easier to get over. I don't know if that's true. What do you mean, it'd be much easier to get it? Yeah, I think it's more like the culture is like experimenting. So it's kind of taken for granted that you're going to mess up a couple times. And like, you should just be audacious and go for it. Good. You have the big words today. Because we took a break. What what break? Yeah, sorry, this is a continuous recording. Yeah, so I definitely do think I lean towards a liking learning a lot on your job, and especially at the beginning of your career. I think that's really helpful. Yeah. What are your thoughts on this? To be honest, I think I would be good with all three. Yeah, I definitely wouldn't turn down any role at this point. Beggars can't be choosers. I listen to Dear Hank and john and john green was talking about how like the first job he ever got someone literally like in the movies, they wrote a number on a piece of paper and then slid it across the table. And then they were like, what do you think about this number? And he looked at it and he was just like, yes. Like, and it was like an exceedingly small number or something. Yeah, my feeling even funnier if you didn't even look. Honestly, Yeah, probably. Cuz I mean, legally, they have to pay minimum wage.
Yeah. In one of the job ads I saw, it was like, You need to have a degree from like a reputable University. And then in brackets was like not Greendale college. That's funny. Yeah. Like, I want to work for you. I was just gonna say I want to work for that guy. Yeah. Yeah, related to this note of what kind of environment you want to work in guy three mentioned that, like, the environment you work in makes a huge difference. Yeah, that's the first time I've ever heard that, like, pick the people not the topic for PhD. Yeah, yeah. That's some really wild advice. But I think that's like, super legit. Yeah, yeah. And we've talked about this a few times, I think. But we haven't heard this talked about, I think, in a lot of career context. I mean, there's the difference between knowing what advice you should follow. And actually following that advice. For my thesis, there was a bunch of tips that I knew I should follow, I wasn't able to get enough information to actually follow them. So for example, one of the tips that I was given was to get a sense of the lab culture, which I kind of did through talking to the pi. And he was talking about, you know, like, tries to make sure that everyone in the lab gets along and goes on fundaments together every now and then. So maybe I did find out a little bit about it. But I didn't definitely didn't get to tour the lab or meet anyone because of COVID. So you know, and I wasn't gonna say no, because I'm excited to be part of the lab and super interested in the research. So there's a difference between knowing advice to follow in actually having the ability to follow that advice. Yeah, that's very fair. And I think, you know, Lisa has accused me of overthinking many decisions. So I live constantly. But yeah, I think there's a time and place of like analysing things and a time and place for like, just kind of going for it and seeing where something takes you. Yeah, that time in places called 30.
I feel like there's a huge selection bias, or I don't know what kind of bias is called I might be wrong about the type. But there definitely is a bias where I feel like every time someone gives a reason, you don't technically need to get a PhD. I'm like, Who? Like when they say getting a PhD raises a ceiling for how high up you can go and they say, but and then they give a reason why you can also go far with just a Master's. I disregard the first half of their sentence. Yeah, I think there's a cartoon where you can't hear the adults. You just hear murmuring. So I'm watching like, before the budget you just hear murmuring. And then you hear?
Yeah,
yeah. At the end of the interview, you were asking about the nine to you know, nine to five, nine to seven schedule. What were your thoughts about that? Yeah, I mean, I'm mostly just offended at when we actually I was like, Oh, wow. And then you're like, Oh, yeah, obviously, this
is normal. No, anything.
Sorry. No, it's okay. It's okay. I actually, I mean, it does make me happy that she doesn't start at like seven. Yeah, I think when Talia said that she starts she gets to school at 630. I think a little part of me died. Yeah, I mean, I could see myself doing it. I don't know how I would ever balance that with having kids or even a golden retriever. Like, they need attention. But yeah, like I like the idea of, you know, having some flexibility and when you arrive and when you leave. And you know, if you do really like the people you work with, I can see that that being Okay, so yeah, I could see myself doing it. I'm still I think the more we talk to people, the more I'm just like, okay, at least in today's climate, this job doesn't exist, but my ideal job would be like a 10 before. I know that's probably not gonna happen. That's called part time. You're right, you know, yeah, you're right. You're right. My okay. I figured it out. My ideal job is a part time job with full time salary. I'd love to give me one of those. Like, on my way into that, yeah, I think we talked about this a little bit at the very end of the interview, but imposter syndrome. thoughts. Yeah, sorry. When you say imposter syndrome. My mind immediately makes that little sound at the beginning of the game like do I think you've been playing this game. I literally played it after we hung up for a while. can I break AR zero second transition? Yeah, I played a whole to imposter games. very distressing. I find I find it way more stressful. Yeah, but you're also so bad at being the imposter. Yeah, I guess I'm not a natural liar. Oh, okay.
I can I can?
Oh, yeah, I feel imposter syndrome big time all the time. I feel all the time in spoken word that I'm not woken up to the poetry because everyone in the spoken word scene can be a little bit intense. And I'm a bit new to it. Yeah. But I think I think I do feel that all the time. I think interviewing guests had been has been very helpful for that. Because a lot of people have said that going into their role. They felt that they didn't know a lot of what they needed to do to do it well, and they learned a lot of as they went along. So yeah, I think like, just knowing that other people feel the same way is very comforting. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. The more interviews we've done, the better I feel about not having it all figured out. I think but yeah, I'm super surprised that this is the thing you feel very often. Oh, no, that before? Yeah. Oh, well, I not like every waking moment. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I think certainly when you're applying for a thesis position when you're starting a thesis. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, everyone does. Yeah, but that's like, it's so ridiculous to me, because I know, this is not how imposter syndrome works. But my immediate reaction is to be like, you're so qualified. Like, you definitely can do this. I like if there's anyone that's suited for the job. It's you.
Yeah, so Yeah, I
know. It's not related to like how you actually feel but it's just like boggles my mind that some of the most competent people I know are like, I don't know if I can do. This has been another episode of so you got to live side degree with Dr. Guy three. Vijay Kumar about biotechnology research. We want to give special thanks to our crew of lovely patrons, including our littleleaf patrons nyeem, the Neil Shafiq and shimo if you would like to become a supporter of this podcast, you can visit our patreon@patreon.com slash so you got Alexa. You can also rate us on Apple podcasts using the link in the show notes. The music you're hearing is no regrets from audio hub.com Thanks for listening and see you next time.