Hi, everybody, my name is Eric elden. I'm the managing editor of Extra Crunch. And with me today is Susan Su, the head of growth at sound ventures, she's actually been a growth marketer for I think over a decade, you could say, since the days when people would call it growth hacking. And she has worked across companies like stripe, Reforge, and a range of others that she'll be able to tell you a little bit more about. I will be here alongside you listening for the next part of the presentation. And then I will be taking your questions that you send in, through hop in and I will be able to ask them of her. So I will check back in with you in about 1520 minutes or so. And we'll go from there. Thanks.
Hi, everyone, I am super happy to be here today. So thank you so much for the intro here. I can also Jordan prior to that. In addition to my work at sound where I have worked across dozens and dozens of portfolio companies, I was at stripe focused on startup growth, and was the first hire actually at Reforge, which in a very meta way, is an organization that teaches growth professionals about growth. And prior to that at 500 Startups where I again worked with dozens of portfolio companies specifically around growth. So I think the original topic of my talk today was supposed to be how to lineup growth with your goals. But since I get so many questions from portfolio companies, and from just the general founder ecosystem around a certain type of goal, namely fundraising, I have decided to narrow our focus a little bit to looking at how growth maps to fundraising goals specifically. So when it comes to growth and fundraising, it is definitely a classic chicken or egg question. Which comes first, does fundraising enable growth or those growth enable fundraising? Unfortunately, the hard answer is that it's both, you need to demonstrate some growth or growth potential in order to attract high quality fundraising. And also those dollars will in turn enable you to invest in operationalizing, the early growth initiatives that seem to be working in the next few minutes here, we're going to go through some of the ways that institutional VCs commonly think about and diligence growth in the context of your companies stage. And we're also going to cover how fundraising can enable growth depending on the stage of your company. Just a really quick note here, for simplicity, we are going to use the common alphabet naming convention and seed series A Series B. Even though we all know that the specific definitions of what constitute a series A for example, round or series eight valuation have and will definitely continue to evolve. Alright, at the seed stage, you are validating your product idea primarily by learning about your customers and how they interact with your chosen problem space. And with your specific product. From a founders perspective, you're trying to get to not just product market fit, which you've definitely heard of, but actually a little bit more multi dimensionally product market channel model fit as quickly as possible. If you're not familiar with product market channel model fit, I highly, highly recommend that you Google a concept called the forfeits and read Brian Balfour is incredible blog post series on the topic. It's all out there for free. And the TLDR of it is that you need to find a match not only between your product and the market, but also the channel by which you reach that market, and also the business model through which you monetize all of this activity. They all need to work together like pieces of a puzzle. At the seed stage, what matters absolutely the most really is just a few simple things, one, your team and your idea, but particularly your team. And bonus, if you have any early whispers of those forfeits that I just mentioned, where you're most likely out at this point is that you probably have some idea and maybe even some conviction around your Northstar metric, or your core metric that everything else rolls up into. And you've done some initial experimentation to understand how feasible it really is to go after that Northstar metric in a meaningful way. And maybe you even know how much it will cost. And then finally, this is laddering up under experimentation, you have some idea of what channels might work for you, even if they're not fully explored, let alone optimized. Now where you're headed, you don't need to be here yet. But where you're headed is developing a working thesis around what works, where your best users hang out what value prop and messaging most resonates with them, and how long users or customers tend to stick around once they've bought in. And you may even be headed towards this, you're not here yet. But you may even be close to hitting consistent week over week growth. And whatever that Northstar metric is, it's going to be different for every company.
Now, what you'll want to highlight in your investor updates, because this is really important component of fundraising is really because you don't have that many results. yet. It's more around the velocity of experiments, and what you're learning from them. Either you're learning that you can double down in a certain area, or you're learning that you can rule out a certain area, which is just as valuable. You may also also want to highlight some initial results from Channel explorations. And really importantly, any early signs of customer love. These can be totally qualitative. At this point, if you don't have a huge sample set of customers, it can be quotes, they can be posts on social media. Now what you want to do with this money, this is how fundraising actually helps growth is consider hiring a head of growth to own this function assuming things are working. And this is especially true if you are a consumer company. If you are an enterprise SAS company, consider hiring a killer head of sales. If you are primarily relying on sold business, you probably started out with founder led sales. And now you want to move into specializing that function because it is so important. You're less worried about revenue here than you are about stalking Hi, the precursors to revenue so that you're building into that promise of a big business ahead, that you just simply haven't cashed in on yet. And a lot of this comes down to gathering as much knowledge and experience as possible. While it's still reputation Ollie and monetary Lee cheap to fail via experiments. Your map of the terrain at this stage is your qualitative growth model. By now as the field of growth hasn't matured, some of you may have heard of growth models before. In fact, Mike dubeau might be talking about it in the other session right now. I want to call it a distinction here, which is the difference between a qualitative growth model and quantitative growth accounting. A qualitative model tells the story of growth that you can use at early stages and really all throughout your company life cycle, a quantitative model or quantitative growth accounting charts the numerical course for how you actually deliver against that narrative and becomes more relevant at later stages when you actually have real numbers. A quantitative model or quantitative growth accounting is also typically in spreadsheet format. Eventually, you'll need both, but for now, let's take a quick look at the qualitative growth model. So here's a sample growth model qualitative growth model that I built for one of our portfolio companies with some modifications for anonymity. At the bottom, we have our linear inputs that form the foundation of awareness, in other words, traffic or leads that feed into our growth machine. Once those leads come in, we have our acquisition loops, working to turn that non repeatable spiky linear traffic, aka TechCrunch. Traffic if you get so lucky as to be written up in TechCrunch. into scalable, repeatable acquisition, you cannot repeat the TechCrunch effect. For this sample business, I happened to spec out five different acquisition loops, I was really ambitious. Many companies will struggle to identify this many. But the key to being able to scale is to have multiple viable acquisition loops, not just one single thing that works. On top of that, we lay our engagement and retention mechanisms, the not so secret here being that the key to great retention is really simple. It is building a product that solves a real and especially persistent problem for people. This qualitative growth model is your rough map of the terrain that tells you and very importantly, your investors and other stakeholders in your company where you're planning to go. And it's critical even at the earliest stages, just to have some idea of how you'll build scalable, repeatable growth into your company operations. You'll notice that on the side of this diagram here, I have this like these kind of recommendation boxes at least to at least three etc. These aren't hard and fast rules, but it's more of a guideline to say that you want to aim to have a multiple things work. At each layer of your growth model, you don't want to just be relying on ads or just be relying on SEO, or just be relying on email marketing for your engagement and retention, you really want to have your eggs in multiple baskets.
At the series, a now things are trying to get interesting things are trying to get a little bit more codified, but not so much that you're not still constantly iterating. What matters most here is demonstrated user love, that you can point to improve. And some hints at potential for massively scaling growth. You are currently at the point where you've identified multiple viable channels that offer the ability to scale. And by that, I mean those channels are fairly open. The channels themselves have pretty high volume on them, or they're at scale themselves. And you can reasonably compete on that you can reasonably compete on that not just one theoretical company, but your company can reasonably compete on those channels. You've either hired or you're already have in place some type of strong acting head of growth. And you set some initial growth milestones by which I mean x users or customers by y timeline. Time is always a really important component to the milestones. And maybe you've even met some of them, even if you're not sure how you met them, or how to repeat that. Now, where you're headed is you're starting to operationalize early wins into repeatable place. You're building predictability into whatever marketing to sales funnel is relevant to your business. And your growth person or team are dedicating half their time to developing new channels that show promise or channels that you've kind of figured out that show promise and the other half of their time to exploration, total new exploration. Investor facing, you want to highlight progress on your Northstar metric, any other roll up KPIs that you've met or identified, and any really strong quantitative signals of customer love, as demonstrated primarily by engagement, behavior, retention behavior that most importantly persists and scales across New cohorts of customers. Now, what you'll want to do with this money, support your head of growth, they are so important, put them in a team of specialists that know how to operate the known channels that work for you. And ideally, look for non dilutive ways to finance ad spend, if you're spending on ads, you'll also at this point, want to start investing in custom data analytics, both systems and people to operate those systems, so that there's no guesswork on how and where and how fast growth is happening. Your map of the terrain here is a refined a more refined version of your qualitative growth model, plus the beginnings of setting some quantitative goals and running accounting against them. Now, finally, at the Series B, it is time to get serious about numbers. By this point, you should have a CFO or someone else in finance to produce consistent financial reporting, to inform not only your investors, but also your team, especially your growth team. What really matters here is demonstrated scalability of the business, if I'm an investor, and I'm going to put 1020 $50 million into your business, I want to make sure it's not a sinkhole.
And especially that you can demonstrate growth efficiency as you scale, meaning, if I put in $1, do I get two plus dollars out? There's a machine and it's scaling. And then thirdly, a demonstrated ability to get predictable results even from newly developed channels, because you know, your customers, you know, their behavior, and they know your product that well. Now, where you're currently it is you are scaling what's been working into significant volumes, you are building out a whole team of functional specialists. And you're starting to invest just want to highlight this one because I think it's really important and gets overlooked in the growth conversation a lot. You're starting to invest in paid brand development brand is really the tide that floats all growth boats, even if we in the growth world often don't like to give it credit, simply because it's typically not a direct measurable line to your Northstar metric. But brand is absolutely critically important and out the Series B is when you typically have enough certainty around your company as well as money to make those investments and you're still spending at least 20% of your growth team's time on continued exploration of more frontier channels. And efforts following the ABCD guideline always be discovering. And finally, you've identified a clear path to winning significant market share and growing into a growth stage revenue and also valuation. Now where you're headed is you're building predictability into your funnel. Your growth engine is able to not just capture existing demand on existing channels, which is what you spend the early part of your company's life doing. But also generate new demand, aka you meet new customers who may have been out of reach before your growth person or team are starting to explore channel and strategy opportunities that might have been too expensive, both in terms of monetary cost, but also in terms of mindshare, and expertise. So too expensive before but now, within reach. Now, in your restaurant highlights, you'll want to interview your investor updates, you'll want to highlight the scalability of your techniques and results, demonstrating that cost per lead or customer acquisition costs CAC, that conversion rates, that total top line are all moving in the right direction. And you'll especially want to highlight the absolute cost of growth, not only how that's changing over time, but also how that's mapping against targets you previously set, it's really, really important to actually show any Delta either positive or negative of your actual performance against your projected performance from the past. Because again, here at these later stages, investors and really everybody is looking for predictability, they want to know that you can actually set accurate targets, hit them or slightly exceed them, and then modify them to be more aggressive. If you're like consistently exceeding them. You'll also want to highlight your ability to deploy a large growth budget very efficiently and still get results. Even as you spend more oftentimes, as you spend more it gets harder to be efficient and effective. And again, just want to really emphasize here that it's all about predictability, aka saying what you'll do, and then doing what you say. What you might want to do with this money is support your growth head with specialist to operate those known channels, scale up investment in custom data and systems and talent. So there's no guesswork on how and where growth is happening. You're building out that data team even further. You're building out that brand footprint even further to help increase brand recall, and correspondingly, actually lower CAC as you continue to scale. And really important here is that you're institutionalizing growth, so that it's not just dependent on one or a few genius, individual people, but rather a reliable and well understood system within your organization, you're focused on not just how to do growth, but how to measure it, how to staff it, and how to expand it all of the organizational stuff. Your map here is becomes not only your qualitative growth model, but a quantitative growth accounting sheet, aka a spreadsheet that lists out all of your KPIs how you're performing against them month, over month, or week, over week, or whatever. timeframe makes the most sense for your business cycles. And it's also a series of projections or financial models, essentially, that show how your growth wheel, your growth flywheel ramps up with more inputs, whether those inputs are people or dollars.
Now, I note here, none of this is possible without talent. A very common topic of discussion with portfolio companies that I have is when is the right time to build a growth team, which also sometimes gets spoken out as Should I just hire a head of growth now? Or should I use an agency slash? This jack of all trades person slash and intern slash my buddy? The answer is that you always need a growth team. The question is more around what constitutes that team at what time at the earliest stages. It is a founder who has learned the ropes enough to design and run experiments, and to have an opinion on what kind of head of growth would be a best fit for the product and company. I firmly believe that every founder should try their hand at growth, if only so that you know how to hire the right person for the role. As the company scales. It's a leader who's run growth and hiring a team before supported by that team of specialists we've mentioned who can then go and become the absolute best in their specific field. On behalf of your company. And at the most mature stages, growth really becomes about skillfully managing people People and expectations and reverse engineering revenue goals into building blocks that any high velocity team can arrange and rearrange as the channel landscape continues to shift. Okay, so in wrapping this up, growth is simply another word for change in a positive direction. investors are looking for signs that you know what direction you should be headed in, and that you're making progress in that direction. The bigger the fundraise, the bigger the goal, the higher the expectations around the speed and scale of that progress. And the also the greater the demand for detail and precision in tracking and demonstrating that progress. That's why we go from dislike to drawing to a massive spreadsheet. Your qualitative growth model is your map of the landscape a sketch of where you're going, while your quantitative growth accounting sheet or your growth spreadsheet is your step by step documentation of how you'll get there, and how things have been going. Both will be highly customized to your product, your business model and the channels where you're able to succeed in acquiring users or customers as well as your overall market. But one thing is absolutely constant. succeeding on the journey of funding and scaling a company ultimately depends on knowing and being able to communicate where you're going and how you'll get there. Growth is a horizontal function that touches Product Marketing, data engineering, and design and maybe a few others I haven't thought of support. As your company scales and matures across all of these functions, your growth leader and your growth team need to be able to work very effectively across other teams that don't report to them and that also don't own growth. So a successful growth leaders ultimate superpower is actually communication, it's not knowing a bunch of hacks, it's not knowing how to press the buttons in the Facebook dashboard. It's not being an SEO, SEO wizard. It is actually communication and influence across all of those different teams. The ability to influence and the ability to get things done horizontally across a complex organization without direct lines and reporting is the absolute super power and secret to successful growth. We will wrap here since this is a short presentation. But I'm happy to take questions on this or other adjacent topics. And if you are sold on the growth modeling concept, and you're looking for more guidance, there are a bunch of blog posts and other resources on this topic. But my personal bias is that I highly, highly recommend checking out Reforge, which has literally written the book and built the community around growth as a practice. So that's it for this segment. Thank you so much, everyone. And then Eric, I guess we'll get into questions.
Yeah, great. Hey, thanks so much, Susan. I have questions piling up here. The first is from anonymous. And this is Do you have any recommendations, examples or tips on how to change course quickly? If tactics stop working, what does that assessment and decision making process look like for the companies?
Yeah, I think that's a great question. Because it's a problem that literally every single company faces and I think it's a good year, the asking that question is a good underscoring the fact that you if you think back to, I don't know if you guys can still see my slides, but like the growth model one had like the layers with like, the shapes on it. That's why we really want to make sure we have multiple things going on at every layer, because you don't want to create massive channel dependency, even from the very beginning. You're You're de risking against channel dependency from the very beginning. Now, if you haven't done that, and you're already like, kind of at that point, and you need an emergency solution. I mean, I think that's you never want to be like fighting uphill from an emergency. But sometimes that happens. But I would say it's important to look at natural user or usage behavior. So like, what kind of customers are you targeting? Where do they actually hang out? Where are they reachable? What makes the most sense if you're selling a consumer product, you're probably not going to go and try LinkedIn as your like Hail Mary, for example. And if you're selling a super high consideration, enterprise product, you're probably not going to try tik tok as your Hail Mary just for example. So I think a lot of that comes down to common sense but then I hate to be like, like, you know, very finger wagging on this, but I really think that religion solution is getting ahead of that by always making sure that you have, you know, at most 80%, exploit and 20% explore the Explore being the like, really critical part.
Great. This is from Jessica Benson. She says, Thank you What is the dollar amount that you'd like to see in each stage? And I believe that is in terms of growth spending? Well, I
think Thanks, Jessica, for that question. I think there's, it's it's hard to answer as a blanket, because some companies and some businesses may be able to get away with spending very little on growth, and actually really brag about that, because they have the potential for referrals and virality. Or, you know, they have some like, spiky word of mouth engine going for them. And I think that's always great. It's great to show. You know, I hear a lot of companies say like, Oh, we've gotten to Xyz point with spending $0 on marketing, and they're very, very proud of that. And I understand that. And I think that is something to be proud of, because it shows that there's organic traction around your company. But the thing around saying that is that you're never going to spend $0 forever. And so I actually think that what works even better than that. And what is even more appealing is we had all this organic traction coming in. But we've also spent some amount of money on gross, and it's really less about the absolute spend and more about the efficiency of that spend. So what is the return on your ad spend? What is the kind of LTV multiple that you're getting on your cost of acquisition, there's the classic rule of thumb that your LTV to CAC ratio should be three to one. So your lifetime value of a customer is three times how much you're spending to acquire that customer. But if it's two to one, and you have a you have like a plan for getting to three, or if it's five to one, and you have a plan for ramping up spends that you can acquire more customers, then that's all good, too. So that's on the spend question, I don't know if it was referring to that or referring to revenue. But I would say that there isn't a rule for every single type of company, because some companies are going to be you know, revenue is going to be way down the line because they have to make a lot of certain types of kind of free usage and product. Like features available first. And so I think it really depends on on the business. But again, I would just emphasize it's more about efficiency and showing that you've like created diversity in your growth machine than it is about saying, Okay, this specific number and then you're good.
Thanks so much, Susan. So we had a few people asking for more details about some of your recommended readings. Susan, and so the name of the company is Reforge, r E, F, o r g, and the name of the author is Brian Balfour, that's b r i a n BALF. Oh, you are?
Yeah, so Brian is incredible. I don't want to make this whole talk about him because it could definitely be, but he is the founder and CEO of Reforge. And he's the founder who hired me as the first hired Reforge. And he's really thoughtful on these topics. And I would say particularly on the modeling, which can get pretty, I showed you guys a really simple version, but it can get pretty thorny, and you really want it to be custom to your business. And you also really want to understand the difference between linear growth and repeatable growth. So linear growth would be like PR, for example, linear growth would be like billboards, for example. There's nothing wrong with that stuff. But that stuff is also really important. It's an important part of the mix. But don't think that that is what you can rely on to scale growth for your company, because it is number one hard to repeat on a short timeframe. And number two, very hard to do attribution. So it's hard to know if like a certain conversion came in because of that TechCrunch article, or because of the billboard that somebody saw on the 101, or whatever it is.
Great. And so I actually had a question. And you and I have talked about it a little bit before and I wanted to hear your views more. With the remote first work world that we're in right now growth is sort of in a weird stage because you you can't just go and walk down the hallway and talk to your product team and then walk down the hallway further and talk to your engineering team and go and talk to the sales team. Right? You can't You can't just have everyone in a room and you know, as much as people like mia TechCrunch of champion work from home. It seems like that is a really hard challenge. And what are the solutions that you see people coming up with for how to get growth because clearly there are lots of companies that have grown during the pandemic. And they've overcome these challenges.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good question and probably depends on what your growth mix looks like. So I think for some companies growth, ultimately is is like very much. And it depends on your seniority level and your role, right. So like, if you're one of those individual contributors whose job is to be that specialist in a category, like you're really good at ads, or SEO, or whatever it is, then maybe being remote and being kind of like in your zone, it's actually much better for you to get the things done that you need to do. I know a lot of some of the best performance marketers I know actually like to work, either like at night, or they literally say, I just want to be in my dungeon, I want to be in my like trading dungeon, I think of it as training. And so for those types of roles, where you're really just working, actually, with numbers and letters, it could totally work fine. But at the more leadership levels, where you're really negotiating resources and power between other organizations, I think that becomes really tricky, especially for organizations that didn't start out remote first, and don't have a culture of relationship building via zoom and whatever. So I think that it's still totally being figured out. I don't think anybody knows the right answer to that, to how to balance it right now. But I can see there being everything from off sites, where, you know, certain things get worked on to really just investing the time to socialize. And I don't just mean like worthless, chitchat, socialize, that really socialize and solve problems for other teams. And that can be done regardless of the medium, I think it's more around. Now, we don't have as much like kitchen filler time. And so you really have to be intentional about going out and building relationships with design or engineering, or product analytics, whatever it is. And so if I were a growth leader in an organization that has suddenly gone remote, I would spend a lot of my time just building relationships across the other orgs, understanding what their problems are, and ultimately making them my customer, not just the like customer, or end user of the business. And then in terms of the, you know, icees, the individual contributors. I think it's really about, look, you know, what to do, here are the targets being really clear about those. And again, targets always have like, the actual, like, numerical goal, but also the time, the time framing around that goal, and giving them the flexibility to execute against that in the best way that they can.
Great, thank you. This one is from Stephanie Iraq. And her i'm pronouncing that right, my apologies. And her question is, generally speaking, what's the best growth strategy to employ with a small budget leaner seed stage? For example? And I think, you know, before you say, Well, it depends if it's enterprise or consumer, Susan, what are some, let's just think about it as what are your favorite sort of like lean, lean growth strategies that you see? Okay, I mean, we could do,
you could try to create a piece of content that goes that that's viral. So that doesn't necessarily cost a bunch of money, but it costs time. So like, here's the rule, right in in growth has in life, there's no such thing as a free lunch. So you're either going to be spending money, or you're going to be spending time and effort to create something, and to put it out there. And so if you don't want to spend money on ads, you know, ads are really great, because they are such a fast way to test something at relative scale. And you know, a lot of folks actually use ads to test out business ideas, test, test out brand messaging, to test out creative, that's not even going to be used in ADS. And so if you don't want to do that, by the way, you can do that very cheaply, like 20 bucks a day, it doesn't have to be massive dollar amounts, then I you can go the kind of like long and more hard work route, which is to do the same, but create content and distributed organically. If you're a b2b. You can just elbow grease your way through it and do a bunch of cold outreach on LinkedIn, or through you know, there are a lot of places where you can get contact people's contact information and just try a bunch of outbound emails to try to open up a sales conversation. And in general, I would say you know, anything where you have a channel where people are already aggregated, where the channel itself has already done a bunch of user acquisition for you That's a great place to go and capitalize on some of that efficiency. So that means every single social platform that's out there. And then you have the paid option where you spend money, or you have the free option where you spend time and effort to painstakingly send no manual emails or like do posts and see how people respond. But I will say it totally does depend on the business.
This one is a little bit different. But I think it's it's something that you are in a good position to answer as well. This is from Claudia in, what advice do you have in figuring out a fair valuation for a seed stage company?
That's a really good question, I would say, um, a lot of that a lot of that is going to be looking at the going rate in the market. So like, some of some of it is going to be intrinsic or dependent on the company. And a lot of it is going to be extrinsic, depending on just market dynamics. But we've seen everything from, you know, safe set $10 million caps, all the way up to 20, all the way up to 30, all the way up to 40. So like you're looking at a range of 10 to 40. It's like one or 4x it's it's a it's a pretty large range. And I think the things that factor into that are like, what is your category, so certain categories, command higher multiples, and investors are willing to, you know, so called pay ahead, because there's an expectation that companies in that category are more likely to become really big companies. I'm thinking like FinTech, for example, right here are certain types of infrastructure, SAS that have a lot of potential, deep pocketed customers out there. Whereas in a sector that I'm very interested in and actually moving into, which is climate tech, the valuations tend to be much lower. And that is a reflection of the typically greater risk at those earlier stages. There's not only sometimes science risk, but there's definitely technology risk. And there's even regulatory risk, you know, team execution risk, all the usual ones plus regulatory and science and technology. And so that will depress the valuation multiple somewhat simply because it's accounting for all of that risk. But in other categories, like as I mentioned, FinTech, you know, we see crave that will be at the upper end of that
range. Great. Thank you so much, Susan. And so we have time for one more question. I just wanted to share sort of a thought here that we've been getting from readers, which is what are the ethics around growth? You know, in 30 seconds, like, how should you think about ethical growth in the modern world, when people expect more out of that companies these days? I think,
yeah, I think it's a great question. Because really hearing sitting in here in 2021, it is unlike any other time of any of our lives who are here at this event today, or probably living on this earth, which is this massive wave of activism culture centering around causes as diverse as black lives matter to climate to Q anon is even its own cause for people, right, like people are so engaged and really expressing values through all that they do. And so I think that that translates to growth to like, Gone are the days where you could just be this scammy you know, kind of contact importer Spanner, people are number one way too sophisticated for that. So they know better now, and they're not going to actually fall for it without going to actually engage or activate with those tactics. And number two, it casts such a shadow on the brand, that it's going to depress all future growth efforts after that. So I think it's absolutely really important to take a stance as a company, show your values and make sure you have values that are not just like evil values, I think that's really, really important. And then take other actions that aren't just growth driven, that express those values. We're living in this age where people are really sensitive about data and privacy. And so historically, growth has been predicated on acquiring lots and lots of user data and then using it in pretty exploitative ways in order to grow a company and I think that's going to be it's we're moving Much more into a permission based model. And in moving towards a model where companies really have to align to what they perceive to be their customers values, but also like truly try to help and solve the problem, like not just say that but actually trying to do that. I know it sounds almost like idealistic, but I strongly believe that that's the direction that we're heading in. And, you know, companies lose their social licence to operate if they don't follow the rule, the social rules of engagement that are kind of now emerging.
Thank you so much, Susan. And thank you everyone for joining us today and please stay tuned for more programming shortly. Thank you.