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Hi, my name is George Abraham and welcome to this edition of Eyeway Conversations. My guest today is Jonathan Mosen from New Zealand. He is a podcaster, broadcaster, entrepreneur, advocate and a technology specialist. Welcome, Jonathan. Thank you, George, I really appreciate you asking me here. Your romance with radio began very early in your life. It will be interesting to know how did that happen and your journey till Mushroom Explosion?
Well, it was strange, I always liked listening to the radio, and my mother would have the radio on. We used to have a poultry farm, you know, raising chickens, and the chickens would lay eggs, which we would sell and all that kind of stuff. And she would have the radio on in the background. And I also like many blind children liked to use the telephone. So one day, when I was four, I started calling in to a local call-in show, and was probably very precocious. Anyway, a lot of the people listening thought it was kind of cute that this four year old kid was calling in. And one day, my parents got a telegram from the radio station, asking if one of them could call the manager. And my parents thought that they were going to be asked to have me stop calling, you know, they they thought that your child is being a nuisance, stop him from calling in to us. But actually, what they said was, we really would like it if you would let your child come in and host a radio show with us just before Christmas, talking to the children about what they would like at Christmas time and that sort of thing. And so that's how I got involved in radio very early. So right throughout my childhood, I was also doing things on the radio, and I've had a love of radio ever since.
When you started coming on radio, obviously, your friends in school, and maybe later on in college also would have been listening to you. How did it impact your presence in the school, in your relationships and your social situation as a young person growing up?
Yeah, I went to a school for the blind. And I really appreciate that because it gave me a good grounding in Braille. We had quite small classes. And I met some really great people who are still lifelong friends. But I always wanted to work in radio, it was something I was passionate about doing. And a counselor who was employed by the blindness organization indicated to me that he didn't think that would be possible that radio was getting very computerized. And this is the 1980s we're talking. So I thought, well, I'm going to have to make my own opportunity happen. So I decided to start a temporary radio station at the School for the Blind. And that was funded completely by commercial revenue. So we went out and we sold advertising, and the advertising paid for the equipment, we had a proper, really large transmitter mast to put up and radio equipment. And we broadcast for a couple of weeks, we did it twice, to the whole of the Auckland area. And what I did then was after having set the radio station up, I invited everybody in the radio industry that I could get hold off to come and say hello, and look at these blind people doing radio. And what it meant was that by the time I was ready to look for work, I knew everybody in the radio industry, because I'd introduce myself to them. So it was actually quite easy for me to work on the radio after that.
You moved on from there to work with a mainstream radio station, and you did some kind of Breakfast Show with them. Tell us a little bit about that.
Yeah, I worked in several radio stations. And again, I think the way that that happened is interesting. You might remember actually that in 1990, we had the Commonwealth Games here in Auckland. And so I was listening to this radio station, and they just started up. There were a lot of radio stations coming and going in those days. And this radio station just started and they were coming on the air at six in the morning and going off at midnight. So I thought oh, I'll call this radio station. And I said to them, you need to be on 24 hours a day at least while the Commonwealth Games are on because lots of nightlife is happening in Auckland, and you could sell ads and I said why don't I do the show from midnight till 6 am, because you've basically got dead air anyway. There's nothing on at that time. So what have you got to lose? I can't be any worse than dead air. Yeah. And if I'll do it for free for two weeks during the Commonwealth Games, and all I ask is that if you like me, if you think I'm any good, you give me a job when one comes up. So they said, Okay, well, we'll give you a try. And that went really well during the Commonwealth Games. And within a few weeks, I was hosting the Breakfast Show. And I worked on several radio stations for the next few years doing current affairs, interviewing and all sorts of things, I was a Program Director at another radio station. So that was great to be on mainstream radio. And every so often, it would come up that I was a blind person, I wouldn't hide it, but I wouldn't make a big deal of it either. I think it just helped people realize that maybe their perception of blind people was a little narrow at times.
There are a number of FM stations in India who actually have attempted, or have expressed their interest in hiring blind and visually impaired people to do programs. But the technology seems to be a hurdle. What about the radio stations in New Zealand? Apparently, it is, there is no accessibility issue there, since you have successfully kind of navigated your way through.
I got really lucky with the timing, you see George, because when I was doing this, at the beginning of the 90s, we were still using physical equipment like CD players and catridge machines and that kind of thing. So the radio stations I worked on, were not automated or computer driven in those early days. And it is a shame to me, a lot of blind people have a love of radio, they know how to do radio well. And a lot of the systems that are in radio studios these days, are computerized and not accessible. There are some accessible options, but they're not all accessible. And so it is a shame that really capable, competent blind broadcasters might be locked out of a radio station, because of what's been chosen in the studio. So yeah, again, I just got really lucky with my timing.
Let's just pause here and look at the people involved with radio. Now you as a broadcaster, what do you think are the relevant qualities that you need as a person to be a good voice on radio?
I think it depends a little bit on the kind of radio that you're doing. But there are some general things, I think you need to be a friendly voice, I think you need to have a genuine interest in other people. You need to have this ability, I think, to imagine that you're just talking to one person, that when you turn that microphone on, your relationship is a personal one with the person listening to you at that moment. You need to make them feel special, and that you're talking directly to them. And I think as you go on to your beyond music radio, where you're just announcing songs and reading slogans, if you are going on to things like talk radio, where you're interacting with an audience, that's where you really need to have, I think, a genuine interest in other people. And one of the big underestimated qualities of good communication is most of it is actually listening. Most of it isn't talking. And so if you're interviewing people, like you are to me, and you're doing it well, then you'll be listening really carefully to what that person is saying. Your follow up with poignant questions based on what someone has said, and turned it into a really good conversation. There's a broadcaster a very famous broadcaster here, who's sadly now died. But he said to me once, what you've got to remember about this industry, Jonathan, is if there's one thing that people can't help doing it, overhearing an intimate conversation. So radio is a very personal medium, and I love it.
Yeah. So moving on, Jonathan. Somewhere along the line, you got interested in politics and you stood for elections. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
I've always been a political creature. I loved listening to politics since I was a very small boy. And I remember when I was about four or five, listening to parliament on the radio, and I turned to my mum and I said to her, Mum, do you think those people are friends in real life? Because they were arguing so much. I wondered, you know, is it like some sort of fake thing? But the politics, I know that people are cynical about it, but it's also a wonderful medium to make change. So I've been involved in government relations where I've been responsible for advocating for a lot of really positive law change in New Zealand, some of which has affected the entire world now. But actually being involved in the political process is great and I did stand for Parliament for the first time in 1993, and then again in 1999. And when I stood for parliament in 93, I was the first congenitally blind person in New Zealand to do that, and it was a great experience. I came away with a lot of respect for the process and the people who work hard to get someone elected. And I've continued to be interested in the political process, I still make submissions to parliamentary committees, and make comment on political issues. So it runs through my veins, the whole political thing.
You've been an advocate for people with disability, what are the issues, say the top three issues that people with disability, people with blindness in New Zealand face for which you need advocacy done?
If we're talking about right now, I think affordable housing and accessible housing is right up there. We've got a housing crisis in New Zealand where there's just not enough supply, and a lot of property owners buying out property and renting it out. And that's creating a shortage of properties for purchase. So it's a very serious issue, and we just don't have enough accessible housing in New Zealand. In addition to that, the unemployment of disabled people is appalling in this country. We just got some new statistics out from our statistics New Zealand, it indicates that while the unemployment rate of the general population has declined as we recover from COVID-19, it's actually gone up for disabled people and the amount of disabled people who are now not in education, employment, employment or training is at a shocking 48%. So unemployment is a really scary issue. And if I had to pick the third issue, since you gave me three, I would pick the digital divide, because you and I both know, and presumably everybody listening to this podcast knows how empowering, having access to the digital equipment being online can be. And yet, we still have a lot of disabled people in this country who can't get the assistive technology, who can't afford to get internet access, who are basically on the wrong side of that digital divide.
You are presently working with an organization as CEO or chief executive, which is involved in recruitment, you did mention that employment and employability is perhaps a challenge in in New Zealand. Can you tell me what is the problem? And how is it being dealt with?
Yeah, I'm really, really honored to be the Chief Executive of Workbridge. We have 22 offices across New Zealand and are well over 100 staff working on the employment of disabled people. I think there are several problems. One is actually that disabled people have quite low expectations in many cases, of their own capabilities, because they've been bombarded for a lifetime, with negative images of what disabled people are capable of. And when you get told you can't often enough, it almost becomes a form of psychological abuse, and you start to believe it, and you think that it's not worth even trying. So there is that, I think there's also a public education problem. So if you don't have a lot of disabled people in the workforce, then chances are, you are not going to meet so many disabled people in your life, if you're just going through your life, you're a regular employer, you may not actually come across someone who's blind or in a wheelchair or who has a mental impairment. So people make assumptions that are quite wrong, quite erroneous. And they think that disabled people can't function in their workplace, they're worried that there'll be a health and safety risk if they employ disabled people. They're worried that disabled people won't be as productive as everybody else. So all of these things, the public education component really adds up. And we've got to do a lot more to take people along with us, and educate them about the capabilities that we have. So it's a challenging job, but it's really rewarding when we feel like we're making some progress.
Would you like to comment on the education that blind and visually impaired people get in New Zealand? Is it targeted towards employment? Or is it just knowledge orientated?
Well, the first thing I'd say is that most blind and visually impaired kids go to their local school these days, there are some who attend schools for the blind, a school for the blind. Typically, they would tend to have multiple impairments, but not always. And they receive, you know, a typical general education and as they go through secondary school, they can choose to specialize in sciences or maths, whatever interests them. There are some programs out there that do seek to provide employment preparedness and training. And I know that our blindness organization here in New Zealand is focusing more on ensuring that blind people can be work ready. So there are some programs out there. But I think, you know, there's a lot to be done until we get those statistics to an area that we're happy with.
I was reading about your personal life, and you were you were in a blind school from the age of five till about 11. And after that you went into the mainstream. Tell us a little bit about your transition, and what was it like to be in a blind school and then being in a mainstream educational setup.
I really appreciate the fact that I had the chance to go to a school for the blind, because it gave me a good grounding in blindness skills, it ensured that some of the mannerisms and the blind isms were dealt with at an early age. But I also got to meet some great blind people with whom I have a lot in common. And I think it really introduced me, in retrospect, to this concept of blind culture, and ultimately, blind pride. I was really lucky that when my parents knew that I was blind, they bought a house very close to the school for the blind. So a lot of children came from all over New Zealand to go to the school for the blind. And that's pretty traumatic. When you're a five year old, and you spend most of the year away from your parents, that's a pretty horrible thing. So I was lucky. And then, because of my parents making that sacrifice, I was able to walk to school every day, and walk home every night. And then when it came to going to a mainstream school, while it was my local school, it was also the school that the children at the School for the Blind went to. So they had a resource room set up there, staffed by resource from teachers. And again, on the whole, that was a really good experience. And I got access to the resources I needed, really fortunate actually, because once I started going to high school, that's when the VersaBraille and some some other technologies started to come along. And that's when I discovered for whatever reason, I just seem to have an aptitude for this technology. And I suddenly started realizing that I was the one who was teaching the teachers about what you could do with the VersaBraille and the Apple TV and those things. It just resonated with me for some reason, so I was really lucky to have access to them.
While you were in the mainstream school, were you conscious that there were sighted children in the classroom?
I liked hanging out with my blind friends, because they were my friends, you know, just like, you make lifelong friendships, whether you're blind or not, if you've gone through the school system with the same group of kids, and you like being in the company, then you'll tend to stay in their company. But that said, I had some really great sighted friends that I met from school, and I would go over to their house after school and hang out and be generally gregarious. I think it does start to change a little bit sometimes, when you get into the middle of high school, say 15 or 16. And at that point, some of your sighted friends are starting to drive, and you can't drive. And so just tagging along is a little bit more difficult, but not impossible. I wouldn't I wouldn't over state that. But yeah, I had a mixture of blind and sighted friends. But I think it's fair to say, my longest friends, and the ones that I feel closest to have been those that I've known since I was about five or six at school.
You also at some point in your life started a consulting firm, which you call Mosen Consulting. What exactly was your purpose behind it? And what was the kind of work you did? And what is the status today?
Yes, I set Mosen Consulting up after I left Freedom Scientific in 2013 or sort of left. I stopped working there full time, I was the Vice President of blindness hardware at Freedom Scientific. And then I set up Mosen Consulting. And I did a range of things that interested me because I've been quite lucky. By that stage, I'd been able to travel the world, met a lot of people. A lot of people knew me. So I was able to do some government relations work. I produced a lot of audio tutorials and wrote books, particularly about iOS and things like that. So there were technology related books, and I do a range of things like that. I also worked under nondisclosure agreements with some pretty big companies around the accessibility of their apps and websites. We would do accessible web design for organisations that wanted to set up accessible websites. So a wide range of things. And then it also turned out that I stayed on with Freedom Scientific, managing their social media and continuing to manage their podcast. So I was busy. And the reason why I could tell that was that, in 2018, I started work full time at IRA, which is the visual interpreter service. And then of course, after that, I became chief executive of Workbridge. So I got some full time paid work, and decided to wind Mosen Consulting down but I love doing that work.
In fact, I read a tutorial that you wrote on Zoom recently, it was very, very useful. And it helped me immensely in my use of the Zoom platform Talking about the fact that you work with the Freedom Scientific, and you traveled the world. I believe you also did work with the ACB in the US.
I did. And first of all, thank you for your comments on the Zoom tutorial. That was really amazing. I did that Zoom tutorial. And then a couple of years after I did it, the pandemic hit. And I suddenly noticed this huge spike in sales around the pandemic. And I realized that this was because a lot of people were having to work from home, and they were having to learn about zoom. And I felt very uncomfortable profiting from the pandemic, especially since by that stage, I was a full time chief executive and didn't need the money. So I refunded everybody who bought the book around the time of the pandemic starting and just made the book free. And I'm yeah, I hear from a lot of people that it helped them. I'm really pleased about that. Yeah, the, the ACB thing was great. So I discovered on the day of its release this technology called Shoutcast, which is an internet streaming technology. And I instantly thought this could really revolutionize internet radio for blind people. This was back in the very end of 1998. And I did a bit of my own streaming work. And then one day, the ACB approached me and said, we've heard what you've been doing. And we've been thinking about starting an internet radio station, would you like to consult with us on how we do it, and I said, I'd be happy to help you out. And then coincidentally, we got Paul Edwards over here, when I was the President of the Association of the Blind Citizens, as it was called back then. And I was president and we got ACB's President out here is, and I had a change of job situation. I chose to resign my job then. And Paul, the president of ACB, was still staying at my house. And he said, Well, now that you're looking for a new job, why don't you come and run and set up ACB radio for us? So I founded ACB radio in December of 1999. And it was a phenomenal experience. We we grew that thing. We got a lot of blind people from around the world involved in the project. I'm really proud of what we achieved.
And more recently, I think it was 2010. Or was it 2013 that you set up Mushroom FM?
Yeah, 2010 is when it started, we took a little break from the end of 2013 to the middle of 2015. But it's still going now. And Mushroom FM's just just fun to be a part of. It's an internet radio station, staffed by blind people from all around the world. And we play old stuff, we play music from the 50s through to the 80s and just have a lot of fun doing it. So it's a way for me to keep my hand in radio work. Because even though I'm a boring, serious chief executive these days, you never quite get rid of the radio bug, and doing the show on there and working with other people who love radio. It's a good outlet for me and I love doing it.
And I was listening to Mushroom FM the other day and I heard the voice of a lady by the name of Bonnie. Yeah. Is that your wife?
That is my wife. Yes. I'm very lucky. She's married to me still.
Yeah, I just wanted to check, you married Bonnie and this, I believe is your second marriage. And what's the story behind this? Apparently, it has something to do with the radio.
Yeah. Well, in the interest of full disclosure, it's my third I'm I have to say, but yes. I was working in Boston, in 2012. And there was this woman who used to listen to the Mosen Explosion which is the show that I've done on the radio for well over 20 years now. And she'd sometimes email in or send a tweet or something like that. And she sounded really intelligent and witty and things. And I knew that she was in Boston. So one weekend, when I was in Boston to work for Freedom Scientific, I was going to do my show, which I did on a Sunday afternoon American time then. And so I said to her, Hey, I'm in Boston, and why don't you come and liven up the show, and be a co host with me. So she did. And it's kind of nice, because I've got a recording of our first meeting effectively, because it was live on the radio. And then we started a conversation that hasn't stopped. And then when my marriage ended, we realized that we were actually really close friends. And it just sort of happened that after that we got together, and she gave up her job in Boston, and flew to New Zealand to live here, for which I'm very grateful.
The other day, I was listening to one of your podcasts where you were having a conversation with Amanda, I believe she is your wife number one or two? She is wife 1.0. That's right. 1.0. She's sighted. And you know, in India, marriage or matrimony is kind of, there is a lot of debate on whether a blind person should get married to a blind person or whether he or she should get married to a sighted person. There are very strong arguments on both counts. What's the theory behind Jonathan and Amanda?
Well, actually, I met Amanda because I used to take exams with the Royal Schools of Music in London, and you do them by correspondence. And they were theory of music exams. So you'd have to have somebody who would write down your musical answers for you, amanuensis is what they call them. And Amanda was not my amanuensis, but she was in a group of them. And she started chatting away to me. And we were very young, I think I was I was 18 when I met Amanda. And it was just one of those lovely teenage romances that lasted a very long time and turned into an 18 year relationship, which was great. It's a really interesting question that you ask about marrying blind versus marrying sighted. Having done both, the one thing I'd say is that, you know, it can work, it can work really well either way. And I don't think it should be the determining factor. But if you are a blind person marrying a sighted person, I think there are some things you have to be really careful about. And that is to not take advantage of the sighted person's working eyes. Because otherwise it creates a relationship of imbalance and dependence. I think I was quite fortunate in our marriage, Amanda's and my marriage. And that, while she obviously had the car, and the working eyes, I was pretty good with the technology and various other things, was a pretty good earner. So hopefully, we tried to balance it out. But it does take work, I think to get the balance, right. The marrying, we've had some discussion on Mosen at large about this recently, actually. Marrying another blind person, I think can be quite bonding, you can have a sense of equality, that's sometimes in some people's view, hard to achieve with a blind sighted relationship. And there are some cultural commonalities. You know, there are certain things that blind people notice the way things sound or just common experiences. But in the end, I think love is a very strange thing. And you never know who you're going to fall in love with. And I don't think whether someone has sight or whether they don't have sight should be the determining factor.
Moving on to the next logical question. I believe you have four children. I do two boys and two girls. They're one grown up now. And what is it to be a blind father?
Oh, gosh. Being a blind father, while being a father is my greatest achievement and the very best thing in the world. I've been there for the birth of all four of my children, and I cried at all of them. It is the most wonderful, beautiful experience. And especially when they were teenagers, my youngest daughter is 18. But the rest of them are in their 20s now, and most of them have had periods where during their teenage years, they drove me crazy. And they turned in from these beautiful, lovely young people into grumpy hormonal completely inconsolable, uncommunicative, awful people. But then eventually it comes right again. And and you get to be able to communicate with them again, I wouldn't miss being a dad for the world, I just, I just love it to bits and I love them to bits.
Are any of your kids kind of involved with some of the work you do?
They all are, I guess, in a way. So my oldest daughter, she's just graduated from university as an electrical engineer. And she sometimes comes on my podcast, particularly when we're talking about Apple things. And she worked with me on Mosen Consulting, helping with the design of accessible websites. And she is a geek like I am. My oldest son, who's the next child, he graduated from broadcasting school. And he's now doing a degree in audio engineering. And so all of them in some way, you know, have that closeness, where we have some things in common and that's, that's really special.
On one of your podcasts recently, you know, you've been talking to people about blind pride, blind culture, and you talking about your identity as a blind person, one of the things that I keep saying is that you know, the world around when they know that you're blind, there is some bias that comes in to the way they engage with you.
There's an old song called the greatest love of all. And George Benson did it first. And Whitney Houston did it about a decade later. And one of the great lines from that song is. 'no matter what they take from me, they can take away my dignity'. And I love that line. And I think blind pride is partly about asserting your worth and asserting your dignity. I wrote a blog post about why I'm proud to be blind, because it's something that some people have some trouble understanding or even believing is true. Some people have accused me of making it up, that I'm proud to be blind. But when I think of all of the contributions that blind people have made to society, there are many pieces of technology that have come into existence, that are used in the mainstream now, specifically, because blind people needed them. And in some cases, because blind people created them, we've led the curve. I also know that I would be a very different person if I wasn't blind. I come from a working class family of five children. My parents weren't extremely poor, but they weren't wealthy either. They had very little formal education. And I think that is because I'm blind, that I took a different path from my siblings, I'm the only one in my family who's got a university education, let alone a master's degree and become a chief executive. Those things have all happened, because I'm blind. And I'm really proud of that. And I'm quite happy for my blindness to define me. I don't feel the need to be called a person who's blind. I'm a blind person, just like I'm actually a short person, and an increasingly thin person, because I've been looking after myself. So I just see it as another attribute that is sometimes relevant to define me and is sometimes not relevant to define me. But my blindness has played a huge part in who I am, and is a really positive part. I don't think I would be as effective and advocate if I weren't blind because it's a bit like, minorities say racial minorities, for example, or religious minorities who face misunderstanding, or discrimination or even persecution. Sometimes it brings out a determination that brings out character, it brings out the best in you and my blindness has done all those things. So yeah, I'm really proud to be blind.
You alluded to the fact that you're also a thin person. Obviously, that would mean that you are kind of kind of conscious of your fitness, what you do to be fit?
Oh, I went on a low carb thing. So I am, I come from a family where my parents had quintuple heart bypasses within a day of each other. I think it was, I can't even remember which order that happened. And I think my mum wins in first. She was having chest pains. My dad went along with her and the ambulance and next thing, you know, they're both in there having hard bypasses. I've got a lot of diabetes in my family. And I realized, I've got to take it seriously. So I did a lot of research. And then I went on this low carb thing, lost a huge amount of weight and feel more energetic than I have in my whole life, just like full of energy and feeling good. So it's been a very good outcome for me.
Jonathan, you're 52 now and you've done a lot of stuff in this, some people might say short span of life, some people might say five decades of life. Whatever it be, what is it that you want to do going forward? Are there any dreams that you have, any goals that you've set for yourself going forward?
Yes, funny I was saying to Bonnie the other day, you get to a point where you suddenly realize you've probably had more tomorrow's than there are yesterday's. So, the other way round, you probably had more yesterday's in there than tomorrow's. But that's what getting old means. Um, I don't know, I don't think there's any major ambition I haven't fulfilled get, I mean, possibly the parliament thing. And I don't know whether I'll get back to that or not. But I don't mind what happens in the future as long as I can make a difference. I like to go to sleep at night. And I keep a gratitude journal. And I do usually 15 minutes of meditation in the morning and another 15 minutes as I'm winding down at night. And I like to ask myself, have I made a difference today. And if I can point to something that I think even made the world a better place for one person, then I haven't wasted a day on this planet. So that's what I aim for.
Jonathan. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for for taking the time to speak with us and look forward to talking to you in the future.
It's a real pleasure to talk with you, George.
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