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S6 E5 - 1:9:24, 3.18 PM | Otter.ai

S6 E5 - 1:9:24, 3.18 PM

Lee Skallerup Bessette1h 8min

Lee Skallerup Bessette

00:01

Hi, everyone. Happy New Year. And welcome back. Finally to the other things ADHD podcast, sometimes the things, sometimes the things, often the things, maybe the things,

Aimée Morrison

00:14

often the things, always the things in our hearts. Yep, taking away the things in your podcast feed in

Lee Skallerup Bessette

00:19

your podcast feed. Exactly. Um, so a lot has happened since you know, or at least a lot of time has passed. I don't know if a lot has happened last year is always happening. A lot is always happening because of the times we live in. And it's time for a recap, recap, because the just just depressing. But as I did go to Italy, and that was fun. And we'll talk a little bit about that. When we talk about today's topic. Today's

Aimée Morrison

00:47

topic is, are you trolling the New York Times again?

Speaker 1

00:52

So let's read recurring recurring bid

Aimée Morrison

00:55

bid, where I am amazed that the New York Times will write articles like how to see faces in inanimate objects. And I'm like, What? What do you mean how to do that? Or is it okay to go to the movies by yourself? Like, what? Um, so I don't know if you've noticed, but it's, it's the first week of January, the week of self love,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:15

I have noticed I had to sign something 2024 weird. It's like a science fiction date that like, you know,

Aimée Morrison

01:23

yeah, Tom and I were just talking about that on our walk today. He's like, you know, it's 2024. Now, and I just about fell over us, because we keep talking about like, it's the new year and next year, and this year was like, No, the number is 2024. And I was like, completely taken aback by that. But since it's been 2024, I'm seeing another in a continuing string of articles, and listening to podcast to about like, how to relax and how to find balance and how to do wellness. And the more everyday people I hear from all these, like podcasts and, and news articles that it's like, it seems that celebrating the holidays is making people miserable, because they're spending too much money eating too much food, saying yes to too many social obligations that they don't want to eat, or drink or leave the house or participate in. And then afterwards, they're like, but how can I feel better now? And I'm like, You know what? Y'all need to relax. But it seems people have a really hard time relaxing. I know, we've discussed on this podcast, the concept of rest before, right. And I think that also culture has done us all in right is that we are so busy hustling all the time and neurodivergent people will this will resonate with them is that you feel like you're behind on everything all the time. You probably owe something to somebody, you're probably not going to get paid if you don't do this thing or you're going to miss this refund if you don't do that thing or you should always be closing Right. Like, always be closing like always right.

Speaker 1

02:48

All living Glengarry Glen Ross, they do we do. And like,

Aimée Morrison

02:52

you know that thing where people like I'm so busy, I don't even have time to sleep. And like, that's like a brag, right? Because I know we talked about this about how it actually feels good to say that about yourself. And we might all be a little bit like my sister who was like, what be alone with my thoughts. Are you kidding? Never. Right? Yeah. Just stay busy to not be alone with your thoughts. And it turns out, there's a lot of articles now trying to convince people that if you take five minutes while you are at work, and don't worry, you don't have to meditate, but if you just like, take a few deep breaths, you'll feel better. Right? Or that sometimes, I saw this thing on the internet that was like, you know, Gen Zed is confused about stuff. It was I think it was like the group of youngsters at the New York Times was rewatching la la, because it's on a streaming service. Now. I think it's Hulu, right? And they were like, oh my god, it's so cute people leaving messages for each other. So like, what if you're out of the office, people can't get you know, like, so like what happened? Like when you went home from work for the day, you just like, just didn't work?

Speaker 1

03:55

Wow, were we were rewatching madmen and like, oh, yeah, Don Draper would just disappear, right? hours on end your

Aimée Morrison

04:05

message, it's gonna be fine. Like, you don't have to have the cell phone on you. Right. So you're ready to prepare an Excel spreadsheet while you're waiting in line at Starbucks because somebody needs it five seconds ago, right. So yeah, I thought we could in this this time, where you get that sort of time dilation through the period between Christmas and New Year's where it's like, it's Christmas Day. And then it's Boxing Day. Yeah, that Rob Rob on New Year's Eve, right. Like there's a date in there called Chili's.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

04:29

Yes. Yeah, that was that was the meme I was thinking of. I don't know what day it is. And I'm full of cheese and I'm full of cheese. I

Aimée Morrison

04:35

don't know what day it is. And I'm Yeah, cheese right where you're just like lying on the couch, like gesturing towards one another. Is it Tuesday? Yeah. No, I think it's Sunday isn't. Right. And this idea that we're bad people for for eating that kind of rest. So in the season where everybody has tried to learn how to find their chill again, or maybe we've experienced some chill over the holidays, or maybe we were so overtime that when the holidays arrived, we just moved through them comatose and realized how tired we actually are. In the spirit of that reset, we can recalibrate our expectations maybe about what rest is and what work is and what productivity is or should be. From a neurodivergent perspective, how do you feel about that leave?

Lee Skallerup Bessette

05:18

Oh, I think that's great. So this brings to the Italy trip. So if anybody has traveled to, say, France or Spain, or in this case, Italy, everything in Italy shuts down for three hours between 1230 and 330, or 130. And 430, depending on it's like, regional one that those three hours are, but like, literally everything shuts down. Everybody is lunch. And basically, that's the only thing you can do is go eat lunch for three hours. It was hysterical, we went at one point for lunch. Or maybe it was dinner, and one of the meals and they were like, Do you have a reservation? They're like, No, and they're like, Well, you only have two hours to eat. We eat in 12 minutes, like this is what you're talking about, like, and then and then it took them 45 minutes to get us our check. And we're like, I thought you were trying to get rid of us. But but it was glorious. Because I mean, it was frustrating on the first day because we didn't expect it. And so we had sort of, you know, we're in Italy, we're gonna plan to do things. And then it was like, no, sorry, no plans,

Aimée Morrison

06:24

you know, museums are everything temporary. Yeah. And

Lee Skallerup Bessette

06:27

so we're like, okay, and then once we accepted that, it was like it was the chillest vacation we ever had. And we ran into, we ran into another American couple at one of the restaurants we were at when we were in Milan. And they were asking, like, Oh, you're traveling and all that. And we're like, yes. And they're, they're like, Well, what are you doing? And we're like, well, we're spending four nights here. And then just four nights at a villa overlooking Lake Como, and then just like four nights in Como, but like, we don't really have much plan, and there's like lots, and they're like, oh, oh, so you're really on vacation, then they're like, we're gonna fit in seven countries in two weeks. I'm like we're traveling, or on vacation. And we're like, that's actually a really great way to put it. We are on vacation and like, just leaned into the three hours came home and was like, so I can't take a three hour nap every day anymore.

Aimée Morrison

07:22

It's amazing how that that pace and I expect that. You know, it's funny people used to say like, I'm a traveler to go on vacation. And what they meant was like, they were really sort of immersing themselves in it. But now traveler, like they mean literally like because they never get to unpack their bag. Going to so many places so quickly. They're just like checking into hotels and checking out of hotels, right? Everywhere they go. And you were on vacation, because you unpack your bag a couple times and still put in and

Speaker 1

07:48

I did Laundry. Laundry laundry, laundry, I guess. Right? Well, but anyway.

Aimée Morrison

07:54

Well, you know, I know you feel about laundry. Yeah, right. But then you just shove it in a suitcase. You'd have to put it in a drawer full. Yeah, no.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

07:59

And, and it means that we could pack a little bit lighter. And we didn't have to carry like, pay extra money for like, you know, overweight baggage, because we have two weeks worth of clothes.

Aimée Morrison

08:08

This is classic. This is classic, right? So you just a little bit of time there you had time because everything's closed for three hours during the day. So you could do laundry. So that like you are literally burdened with less weight. Yeah, right. Tried to literally fit everything in to your bag. Like I think this is, this is really cool. And I you know, my experience of like, I've been on these sorts of trips like for when I was with the Trudeau Foundation, we do these trips and was like, oh my god, so busy, right, like this schedule, schedule, schedule. And it just felt rushed, and overcrowded. And, you know, we were in France in the fall for a week. And you know, same thing, like it's slow and they don't bring you the check until you ask for it. Once you get used to it. It feels like those vacations actually last a month in a good way you feel like you got a month. Yeah, of your life back because you're able whenever you're just like sitting in this restaurant, not thinking like they gotta clear the table like the check already came, I got a flag or down or just gonna be mad, I gotta work. They did just everybody's like so relaxed that you just start experiencing time. As it moves past you, instead of finding that time is moving too quickly, because you're not getting things done fast enough, which like some paradoxically, like if you were to cram 45 activities into 10 days, your vacation would feel shorter. Yeah, than if you did one activity every day. For four days, right? Because our lives are so over stocked with activities where we're always on the verge of being five minutes late for the next thing, right? You know, the way you can people can go into your calendar at work and just like oh, your meeting is done at like 1255 Okay, 1257 you're meeting with me, right? Like you can just go from thing to thing to thing and then always feel even though you're getting so many things done into your schedule. It feels as if time is going by so fast and nothing is happening that you can remember right because you're not really fully present there. You're always like, worried about if you're going to make the bus connection because if you don't get to The hotel by a certain time, like you won't be able to call ahead because you can only call ahead 12 hours to make sure you can get into the the attraction the next day that closes by noon. Like you're just racing like, Ah, fuck, if we miss it, we miss it. We'll get it the next day. Yeah.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

10:14

And that was exactly it. Right? Like, because we knew we were spending a certain amount of time, extended time in each place and hadn't really planned anything at all. Yeah, right. So you know that it was kind of like, okay, well, is it open right now? Is it open today? Can I get a ticket maybe tomorrow or like, you know, because we, we have to check out but we rented a car and we don't necessarily have to be in like at our villa. And, you know, we can only take that for so like, Okay, well, it's is it nice today or not? You know, like, that will also be the thing, like, if it's a nice day, we'll do this. If it's not a nice day, then maybe, you know, we just stick closer, and you know, go go drink coffee with the old men who are having wine at 10am. Right? Like, it's, well, we

Aimée Morrison

10:57

were gonna do the catacombs today, you know, but that's like underground and dark. But like, it's the sunniest days since we've been here. Like, why don't we just do that another time. And maybe today we'll sit in a plaza somewhere, right? Like it just sort of experiencing your life in the flow of the weather and the traffic and what things are open, like in Europe? Less so in North America, they'll be like, closed on Wednesdays just closed? Close. They have like 12,000 visitors every day, but not on Wednesdays. Because Wednesdays, they're closed. Right? Because people need a day off. Like just Everybody calm down. Right? Yes. It's kind of how that goes. And it's so alarming. to Western Well, I guess North American tourists often because we really feel if we're not moving so fast. We need velcro shoes, because we don't have time for laces, that we're wasting time. And something terrible is going to happen to us. And we're going to

Lee Skallerup Bessette

11:51

and there was also like when we went to Scotland last year or so two years ago when we went to Scotland now in terms of calendar years. We were there and again, had planned this way in advance. But we ended up in Edinburgh on the day of the Queen's funeral. Oh,

Aimée Morrison

12:09

surprise. Yeah. A lot happening in Edinburgh. Except the Queen's funeral. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

12:15

Yes. And so like it was surreal. Yeah. Because there was no buddy. Yeah. And so many and almost everywhere was close. So it was great for just like walking around and taking in like the city. Yep. Right. But it there's like, it was pretty much you could say like everybody who was wandering around were tourists. Yeah. And even then I imagine a lot of the tourists because they had it. We'd actually walk past it the the day we arrived, they've actually set up a giant viewing area for the funeral. Yeah. And so like, we're like, yeah, we're not going here. Even though we could say we were at the like giant viewing party for the Queen's funeral. We're like, why would we do that? But yeah, so it was just like dead? Like not very few places. You could get at least a coffee and maybe something to eat. But like other than that everything was closed for the Queen's funeral. Right.

Aimée Morrison

13:05

But now you can say you were there. Yeah.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

13:09

No. And it was it was more just the like, it was more just this idea of, again, being in a place as large and as bustling as Edinburgh. And there being literally nobody out.

Aimée Morrison

13:22

It's like early COVID. Remember? Yeah. Sure, is healing memes. Like, I think we need to kind of go back to that mindset to remember Oh, yeah. In the early days of COVID, you would see in your newspapers online, there'll be like a photo of the highways in Los Angeles with nobody on them. Right? Or like a whole sort of meme set of deer wandering through the suburbs, right, like are animals where they shouldn't be like, Oh, nature is healing a whole flock of sheep going through a village somewhere, right? Because there's no, no people. I would like oh, and air pollution dropped by, you know, a huge amount and people managed to save up some money because they weren't like just frantically running from place to place. And it's been alarming to watch. Everybody be like, Yeah, okay, let's, let's start frantically running from place to place again. Right? Yeah. Which so there's two neurodivergent responses to this and surprising no one, I expect that our reactions will be different because I am very much a resistor of speed. Right? I want people to talk faster. Because I get bored very easily. Yes. Right. Yeah. But I don't want to have like seven meetings in one day. That's too much. Like if I'm going to be perfectly honest, I don't want to have any meetings but definitely too is too many. Right? That's too many meetings are like I get really mad when I have to do this like busy work administrative busy work, which we discussed on an episode because it's taken time away from like, either doing something valuable, like teaching or something valuable, like sewing a pair of pants, right? Like, it's what's great about vacation for me, I used to be before it was diagnosed and before I'd had therapy, and before I was medicated, I would usually roll into this Christmas period when again, it's like sort of like mini COVID right because If you work at a university, the whole university shuts down. They Oh, yeah. Right. They're just closed. Yeah, vacation like you can't talk to a secretary if you wanted to, like the email is shut down, the services are canceled to Israel gone. Like, you want to get your photocopying done. You can't like everything is closed, forget about it. So it's like that off if you want to go to your office bring extra four layers of clothes. It's like a snow day, but it last week, right. And so I usually roll into that and be like, it's a sort of Jesus take the wheel moment, because you can't really do anything active and I would just talk would be like, What are you want to do? And I'm like, nothing. Yeah. Right. It's like, do you want to go to this, like you'd like these people securitizing? You want to do these things? And I'm like, I don't want to just mono like, like lie like, like George Michael books, like, facedown on the carpet with my backpack. Like just yeah, come in the house fall down and stay there for a week and all I buy vacation for me was the ability to say no, to everything. Like that's all it was. There was no, yes. In my Christmas break. It was just No, no, I'm not doing any grading. No, I'm not answering any emails. No, I don't have any meetings. No, I like don't have to answer any students. No, no, no, I don't have to. I don't want to You can't make me right. And that was for me, the greatest vacation in the world was the ability to lie on my face on the rug and say no, but if you think about it, that's not really fun. No. Right. And it depends on who you're

Unknown Speaker

16:20

saying no to. You know, so I'm sure I mean,

Aimée Morrison

16:23

saying no is great. Like, I'm very glad they didn't do those things. I'm very glad I said no to all of those things. Right. But I wasn't saying yes to anything for myself, right? Do you want to bake cookies? I'm too tired, right to go cross country skiing? Like, I don't want to plan it? No. Right? Could you want to go

Speaker 1

16:39

outside and put coats on? Like, I don't let me get to have to take it off. And I'm gonna be sweaty, but also called to want

Aimée Morrison

16:48

to go like to the ATO in Toronto like, No, I don't want to drive anywhere. I want to spend that much time in the car. I don't want to put makeup on No, no, no. Right. And because I was just so exhausted. Yeah. And so I'm the kind of neurodivergent person who can't handle a lot of stimulus in the general case. And I'm always like Lucy, and Apple at the Chocolate Factory, stuffing chocolates down my bro, I can never keep up with the conveyor belt. Right? And for a long time, I thought the problem was me. Right? that I just had to learn how to go faster, or Yeah, shoving chocolates down my bra to make it look like I was doing okay. And when they shut the conveyor belt down, I would just sleep for five days, right? Where, as it turns out, for me, what needed to happen was that the conveyor belt needed to move slower, right? Or it need to have fewer chocolates on it. And then by the time let's say the conveyor belt shuts down for the day. I haven't got any melted chocolate in my bra. I feel okay. And now I'm like, baby, I'll make a lasagna tonight from scratch. Because I have enough energy to

Unknown Speaker

17:45

say maybe I'll make it maybe I'll make a pair

Aimée Morrison

17:47

of pants. Maybe I'll make a pair of pants. Yeah, right. Maybe also submitted. I think I've done like, oh, since I got back from France at the middle of October. I've done maybe five pairs of mittens.

Unknown Speaker

17:58

Nice. are you knitting those are sewing those. I'm

Aimée Morrison

18:00

knitting them. I'm getting them. And yeah, I gave up sewing until the break. That was like, because I had so much great. He was like, don't get your project. Yeah. But like, I come home, I play piano, right. And I don't think like I should use this time like, Oh, I'm not at work, I should definitely read next semesters textbook, because that's just still work, right? I'm not going to try to play 2048 bricks on my phone for six hours while like lying on my bed in my underwear. Because that's just saying no. To everything, right. And so what I have been reading a lot in these articles is people don't understand the difference between rest as saying no, so that you can recover from burnout enough to go back to work. And rest more properly understood as leisure, which is actually refilling your tank by doing the activities in your life that are not work, right. And work might be what you're paid to do. But work might also be like related to your family obligations, like oh, I have three days off from work that are paid, I should probably get the ladder out and clean out the rain gutters is

Lee Skallerup Bessette

19:05

when I can bring the car into the shop now because yeah, I

Aimée Morrison

19:10

get my chimney repoint if you're late, right, like so. So those things are not rest, either. Right? So sometimes rest is. I don't know, what do you do for rest?

Lee Skallerup Bessette

19:21

Well, so. So it's similar now. Okay, because I was always I mean, I would go much faster and could go much faster. But then it also we've talked about I would crash hard. Yeah. Yeah, right. You know, I used to joke and it was true. I would get sick. So sick every Christmas holiday. Yeah, it would just lay me on my ass for two straight weeks, right? Because I was so sick. Because I was so I hadn't taken care of myself. I hadn't rested, I hadn't slept I wasn't eating well, all that kind of stuff. And so like nobody wanted me around. It was just like no, we're gonna give you the know already because like Please stay away from me, you, you gross person. And now I find it. It's similar in that sense where I, and again, stuff that happened this past year has sort of taught me that I had to I just couldn't I didn't have the mental capacity at all, it was just kind of like, I can't go this fast anymore. I do not have the strength or the stamina or the I don't have the spoons anymore, the spoons are all gone. If

Aimée Morrison

20:25

you're going out fast, if the road has a curve in it that you weren't expecting, you're going over the guardrails, right? Road has a lot more curves in it than it used to. And what you discovered was that speed, which was very dangerous before is actually dangerous, but with consequences. Yeah, yeah.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

20:40

And so now that the road is kind of strained out, I'm like, I don't I'm not going back to that. So I mean, I say, again, like, you know, like I I've, you know, I've said this before on the podcast, the so it's finding out like, as I'm an extrovert, right, where it's like, so coaching, swimming is restful for me. Yeah. Because it's not work. I can't think about anything else, you know, and I just spend an hour you know, in an in an environment to me that is familiar, and literally warm. And, and just fulfilling, right? And then there's also like, you know, my sewing as well, right? Where that's, you know, if I if I just want to take a break, but it's, it's actually been really nice, over the holiday, because we've got to spend a lot of time together as a family. Like, my daughter now has me watching. People play Dungeons and Dragons, which is a thing. And I'm obsessed now to their like, streams of people play Dungeons and do their actual TV shows. Oh, my God. And that's like production. It's like huge production values now like they are no, it's really good because they're all improv comedians, too. So they like create these characters in this world. And the guy who's the DM is brilliant, Brendan Lee Mulligan. I'm like, my new internet boyfriend. And so but she wants to watch them with me. Right, right. And then yeah, and so she's like, let's watch d&d together, mom, and I'm like, Okay, you are 16 going on 17. And a senior in high school, I'm going to take full advantage of this. And then like, my son is also like, let's watch smuggler's rain, which was a really cool animated series on it, you know, but just like, now, he wants to watch one piece. And I'm like, yes, let's just, we're gonna sit together on the couch with the dog. And we're going to just be together and watch these things, and, you know, have reactions together about them. And and, like, we just we didn't have time to do that for a long time, because we were all so busy. Right? Yeah. Dancing and swimming and coaching in school and theater. And, you know, and and it's driving somewhere. Yeah, always driving somewhere, always. And now, it's just kind of like, you know, what, we got, we got two hours or an hour and a half. Let's, let's sit down and watch something together. Let's, you know, do that. And so that's been, I've found that I have said no to some things, in order to be able to say yes to these things that are more important and meaningful and more restful

Aimée Morrison

23:29

for me love that for you. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to, I'm going to now say, Do you know I've been reading about this? Because I have research shocking that you've been reading about? I know, I've been doing some reading about this. I had time I was on vacation. Right? Yeah. And productive. That was a joke. So

Lee Skallerup Bessette

23:45

no, the first one trying to be productive. You just fell down a rabbit hole, like, this is what I love to do. It's what you love to do.

Aimée Morrison

23:52

Right? So like, these kinds of rabbit holes are my coaching, swimming. Right? So you described coaching, swimming, it's fulfilling for you. It's warm, right? It gives you a good feeling. And also physically, it's comfortable for you. And you mentioned, like, you're skilled at it, right. So yeah, often I think when you're coaching, you get a good feeling of competence. And pleasure. I'm doing it. I'm good at this. Yep. People need me to do it. And I'm enjoying it. Right? So they're benefiting from it. And they're benefiting, right? Like, pro social, it helps me it helps them like it's not this transactional thing. Like you sell your time to the employer in like, right, they give you money, you give them time, like that's a transactional thing where, like, you sort of need the money to live the rest of your life but the rest of your life is stuff like watching TV with your kids. Yeah, right. Which you enjoy, which like, there's no skill involved in that that relationship building right. So you're using your leisure time there for relationship building, and with the kids that you have with the ages that they are, you're not on the floor playing My Little Pony, you're sitting next to them. Like my kid likes to sit next to me and then shows me all the stuff they sent me on Instagram DMS that I haven't looked at Yeah, yes,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

25:00

yeah. It's almost like being a parent to a teenager and spending time together is almost like parallel play. It is like our kids have when they're toddlers, it is literally just parallel. But sometimes they let you hug him. Yeah. And sometimes it's like you

Aimée Morrison

25:13

have kids. Great, right? So in your leisure time, there's like two kinds of activities that you're engaged in. So coaching, swimming is something it's pro social, because you're going out, it's helping people. You're a you're acting in your community, right? You're helping build community, you have a skill, you feel competent, you get pleasure from being useful, but also you enjoy that activity. Right? Sewing is a is something similar, except it's not really community oriented. They're right. You do it just because like, you like to touch pretty fabrics. Yeah. Right. And you like to make clothes that fit. Right, and you derive something and

Lee Skallerup Bessette

25:47

it gives me something to do when I listen to my podcasts or my audiobooks. Yeah, there's

Aimée Morrison

25:51

all right. So it's like you're multitasking in a good way. And you enjoy the process and you feel good at it. And it's like, gives your brain a little edge. Sometimes, you know, when you're like, go through your Instagram and you see a cool new patty. Somebody makes it they're like, oh, yeah, like and now you're, it's a little bit social in that way. But it's purely discretionary time. It's your time, like we've talked about this before about doesn't have to be about oh, I could bend the kids clothes if I had just like, oh, this is for you. Right?

Lee Skallerup Bessette

26:15

Well, and my daughter has actually and this has given me great joy. My daughter has actually started to ask me to make stuff for her. So I made her homecoming outfit. Oh, she looks like fire. If you go on my Instagram, there's been a post fracture of that. And she's really kind of witchy and and I've made her like, four different witchy skirts, I got a I got a I got a mood. I got a mood. Mystery box, so called fabrics. Um, for those who might not know of Project Runway fame, is they do mystery box where it's just like off cuts remnants. And so they put 10 pounds worth of fabric in a box and send it to you. And so I asked my dad for that for Christmas, because it's still a surprise. I know what it is. But I don't know what that feels. So there was one with like moon and stars and zodiac symbols and mythical creatures on it. And I'm like, I pulled it out. And I said, Here, Cassie, this

Aimée Morrison

27:11

one's for? That's fine.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

27:13

I'm not interested. No, it turned into a skirt. Because that's like bedspread

Aimée Morrison

27:17

pattern we just got for our kid. Oh, okay. Yeah, it was Yeah. Yeah. So

Lee Skallerup Bessette

27:21

but but, but again, and she was happy. She was excited, right? She was like, Oh, this is gonna be a skirt. And I'm like, yes. Okay, so let's figure this out. And, you know, what do we want the frontal look like at the back and all that. And so, you know,

Aimée Morrison

27:33

anytime you having quality time, and it's using using your skills and your hobby, and you feel recognized and seen and, you know, we've talked about this before, it's sometimes like when you're feeling really blocked on a project, or when I'm feeling really blocked on your project, I will do my hobby, like, I will go play piano for a bit. And it's not like, Oh, if I do this, the idea will come to me. That's why I have to do it's like, oh, fuck it, my brain is full. I can't do this anymore. I'm so frustrated. And I go do something else. And my energy comes back, first of all, right? It's like, I can be exhausted from reading, but I can then play piano for two hours, no problem. They're completely different activities. They're both intense, but they're intense in completely different ways. And it's a kind of rest that is active, right? It's not just, you know,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

28:16

that's a concept in athletics, active rest, man. Like, it's not just just standing there. It's like, okay, well, now we're gonna engage in some active rest. Yeah, you know,

Aimée Morrison

28:24

like, every walk like, you could do a little bit of walking, right? Like, yeah, go workout like the

Lee Skallerup Bessette

28:29

don't just go from zero. It's from zero to 60. back to zero again, like you have some. Yeah, you know,

Aimée Morrison

28:35

yeah. And active rest is like, it's not just about the recovery part. It's about building you into a more interesting person to write. Because, there, it's not just time that work. And families take away from us, they take away our energy, right? The people that we are the people that you are like the person that you are in the person that I am is like the some of the experiences that we had, which is why people often look back at the time before they had kids or before they were married. It's like God, I was like, so interesting. And I'm not interesting now, because you gave all your time away, and your energy and service to others. And so you don't know who you are, right? Yeah. So the number of people that I've talked to about suddenly can be like, that's what I'm like, Oh, I did it. Right. Or like, it was like, that's great. Like, well, I sewed it. I'm like, Oh, that's beautiful music. Well, I don't play that on the piano. But like that, I like that. You get so good at stuff. Like I have hobbies. Yeah, right. Like, there's no hobbies, and they're like, I don't even know what I like. So how bad has capitalism messed us up? That we can be grown ass people and not even know what we like to do? Yeah, it's a problem. Right? And this is why people just fuck around on the internet then because it's always there and it's always shiny and it's infinitely scrollable and it will tell you what to do and you'll Hypnotize yourself and that'll be great. So much harder to be like I always liked you know, baking Madeleine's or whatever it is, like, I want to do more baking like let's figure this out like because then you have to like get ingredients or Like get yourself organized or if you wanna play piano have to get a teacher or like, whatever it happens to be to put a little bit of effort into it. And often the place that we get stuck is like, we've been so busy, and we're so exhausted. And we've spent so many years giving our time to everybody else and letting other people make decisions for us, particularly neurodivergent people, but told their whole lives, they're wrong about everything. Yeah, right. Don't do your special interest, not now. Not now. Once you get everything done, you'll deserve like, you'll get your reward. Right. And by the time you feel like you maybe deserve a reward, you don't even remember what you wanted anymore,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

30:29

ya know? Or you get it and you're just like, yeah, right. And well, they might end up just looking at it sort of forlornly going like okay. Yeah.

Aimée Morrison

30:38

Like, sometimes he was like, I don't even know what I would do. Once I retired. I'm like, Oh, I know what I would do. Oh, I know what I have so many hobbies, right. So many hobbies, that I would do a bit like, Oh, I'd have more time for these things in my life that aren't work. yet. I love right. And so I think one of the reasons people don't have a rest is because they've been so busy. They don't even know what to do with themselves. Right? It's it's

Lee Skallerup Bessette

31:01

been really interesting to again, given what we've gone through, and Leo is diagnosed with autism. And, like, between puberty and the autism, he gets exhausted. Yeah, like, he just has to take a day off of school during the week. And he sleeps for like, 1618 hours. Because he just can't anymore. Oh, yeah,

Aimée Morrison

31:26

that was from like, grade 11 Go to bed at four for an app wake up the next morning be like, yeah, like close from school the day before? Is it supper? Time? mom's like, it's breakfast? Yeah. And,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

31:36

and, you know, so that's sort of, and again, it was it was one of those things where, in Italy, it was like, he loved it. It's like three hours every afternoon where I don't have to do anything. Yes, please. Um, and so we've just because of that, I have just become a lot more aware of that need to rest, right, that need to be like, like, what is what am I teaching? And I said this to? There was a question on Facebook about, you know, some somebody was asking me or writing something about parents allowing their kids mental health days. Right, right. And I said, Yeah, I said, Look, how if I am serious about teaching my kids to, to be able to actually listen to their bodies, then I have to respect what they say about it. And I have to model for them and allow them the space to do what they need to do in order to best take care of themselves. Yeah. Right. And you might say, well, that's not how it's gonna be in the real world. It's like, that's fine. And but maybe they can advocate for themselves to change it, as opposed to just saying, well, that's just the way it is.

Aimée Morrison

32:48

I mean, and like, listen, Leo has always been like this. Yeah. He's always been like this listeners of this podcast. Yeah. I've described in earlier times about, like, elaborate wind down routine. Yeah. Like, why do you go to bed at seven because it actually takes you until 930. And, but he's always been like that. But there's this idea. And I know as an autistic person, and this probably happens with ADHD people too, as you're told you'll grow out of it, right, you'll be get help a morning person, for example, or your need for sleep will not be so extravagant. Or if you go to bed at four and then get up at seven, that's fine. You can still make it to school as if the most important thing is that the hours of school not be disrupted. But the thing is, if you're sleeping 16 hours a day, like you're not living the same day that other people are living, right, but this idea that as long as you get the important things done and important as always school or work, then the rest is fine. Right? But like so you are a person who, like you've been describing on this podcast, say yes to life. Yes to this opportunity yesterday. Yes, I will write this thing. I will go to that place. I will join this team. I will be the parent on this organization. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. You say yes to everything because you love to be busy. And I said yes to everything you said yes. Yes. I said Yes. Whose past tense now because I've described yourself as a person who was a yes, person. And I have always been a no person, right? I've always been like, I can't, I'm too tired. I'm gonna give up and, and as both of us, like, become a little bit more calibrated through self knowledge and the middle aged giving of fewer fucks. Right, I find that when I accept myself and my limitations in the workplace, I get more work done, first of all, but second of all, I'm not so exhausted when I come home, I can't have hobbies. Yeah, and now I do. And it's amazing that that since I've been better about knowing what my boundaries are at work, and I will say to people, no, I will not co edit that special issue with you know, I cannot do this writing submission for you too many other things at the same time where I will write this thing, but like only because I'm giving a keynote on the same topic. So it has to be on the same topic. I know I can produce high quality work that makes everybody including me happy. I don't have to hate myself. And when I go home at night, I'm like, Ooh, let's tackle that new Beethoven. Or maybe I'm going to knit some mittens tonight. Or Maybe I'm gonna steal some pants. Or maybe I'm gonna call my friend who lives like in another city right? Like I have the energy

Lee Skallerup Bessette

35:06

or the or I can sit sit quietly with my kid. Yeah, right and not being completely Dappy completely annoyed by the things that they are also doing at the same time and be like curious about an open to it. And you know, like it's willing to look at all of the things that they sent you on Instagram at a gesture yet,

Aimée Morrison

35:28

so it feels to me like like both of us. Like I'm like, oh, now I'm able to say yes, to more things like just in sheer number. And you're saying yes to a smaller number of things. That was the journey we each needed to make. But the common place that we landed is that we are being more authentic to what we actually need. Yeah. And value, right. So if you compulsively reflexively said yes to everything, because you thought that being busier was better, and that you could handle it, even if you couldn't, and it wasn't. And

Lee Skallerup Bessette

35:58

you also also part like your sister, where I just don't want to be alone.

Aimée Morrison

36:01

You don't want to be alone. There's too many shares. There's too. And they're scary and they're wrong. Like, here, right? I just want to be asleep. So I don't have to be bedeviled by my anxiety anymore. And, and the deadlines won't bother me when I'm unconscious. Right. So like, that is a way look. Yes. So like, what are our coping skills? In those cases? Were socially sanctioned, right is the right thing to do. You should say yes to more things. And I should feel bad all the time. About not saying you should sleep for two straight weeks over the Christmas holidays, right? Because like, that just means you're working hard. Right? But the thing is deserved that we were just are in that digging ourselves and misery hole. Yeah. Right. So that when we come into like our own authentic selves, like, you know, Leo can't go to an overnight grownups, New Year's Eve party and then show up at school the next day, not gonna happen, right? That's absolutely not gonna happen. And I can't watch TV without knitting. It's too slow, and boring, I can't do it. For me, that's it's relaxing, I'm much better able to sit still and have snuggles with my kid, if I could knit while I'm watching TV. Right. And that's great. So what we've both learned is that we don't have to be afraid of our own thoughts. We don't have to be afraid of acknowledging maybe who we actually are. And that a little bit of acceptance of our limitations, means that we are able to experience more joy, maybe not more activities, like for you more joy means fewer activities. Yes. Right. And for me, it means actually having enough energy to make choices about activities, instead of just feeling so completely overwhelmed all the time that it was like, going to be the hospital was the next stop, right. So that's like, for me what rest is it allows you to feel like you have some agency in your life, and that the way that you are living and the activities that you are doing reflect your values, and your desires, right,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

37:54

and that's not going to come from three deep breaths every hour.

Aimée Morrison

37:56

It's not, it's not. But if you can't even take three deep breaths at work without somebody telling you, it's gonna make you more productive, then you have a different problem. Like you're, you're at the bottom of the scale. And I suggest to our, our listeners, that they're probably a lead type or an any type, they probably feel like they should be doing a lot more because they're hardly doing anything, because they're tired all the time. And they're flaky and fussy. And they just need to push, push, push to be a different person. And then over Christmas, you just sleep forever. And maybe you're a li where your natural energy is at quite a high level and people tell you, you're a lot, but you're like, but I could be more. I could be more. And you could you could be more and, and there's

Lee Skallerup Bessette

38:35

a deep seated. And I mean, part of that is again, a fear of value and productivity too. Right? Like I have been told my whole life I am wrong. Sure. And so I need to say yes to as many things as possible, and being as many things for as many people so that maybe at one point I might be right. That's right, right. Or will tell you know what, or no, or like, I've got to take take advantage of these opportunities now because they're never going to show up again, because somebody's gonna figure out that that I'm a fraud that I'm a fraud and that I'm not wandering on these things. So like people want me now so I better say yes, because yeah, I don't know if they're gonna want me anytime in the future. Yesterday mindset. Yeah, it's good. No, total, the scarcity mindset, but also like, again, the productivity kind of like, you know, people will like me if I'm more productive. Yeah. Who

Aimée Morrison

39:21

cares? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker

39:23

well, there's that too.

Aimée Morrison

39:26

Well, you know, they say, like, you're you're gonna get to your deathbed and be like, Man, I wish I'd answer 200 more emails. Right. Like,

Unknown Speaker

39:33

I went through them all already.

Aimée Morrison

39:34

You answered them all right. That would be me. Yeah. Like I wish I had answered more of Amy's emails. Like, I wish I got more work done. Probably. Yeah, probably not it right. But but the culture that we live in is very much you are as good as your salary. Right. And if even if you don't make a good salary, you are more important, the less sleep that you are able to Get right, like we've sort of turned it, you know, instead of this sort of Keynesian sort of be like, Oh, no productivity is going up so high, what are we going to do with all of our leisure, that's going to be the problem of the 20th century is we're gonna have too much free time and not know what to do with it like hahaha, and amazing danger that maybe it was true, maybe capitalism just colluded a little bit with our own sort of lack of self knowledge and self awareness. So that we're like, I don't know who I am. But I know who capitalism wants me to be. So maybe if I am who capitalism wants me to be, I will be a good person and be happy finally. Right? So maybe everybody's neurodivergent in that ways. Nobody knows what they want. And they're not able to be themselves. And at a certain point, you forget, right, you forget. So I know now. And

Lee Skallerup Bessette

40:40

I think and I think for neurodivergent people in particular, it's not that we ever forgot, we just never figured it out.

Aimée Morrison

40:46

That's true, right? You just figure it out. And people kept telling us no, that's not it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's about it. You

Lee Skallerup Bessette

40:53

know, but won't it and I think that that's where, for neurodivergent I, that's where I think diagnosis can be really powerful again, because it's sort of like, Oh, haha, I can Yeah, it's, it's, I can call it something. Yeah, I can call right. It's not just like, I'm wrong. It's I have ADHD. And so therefore, I am not wrong, I am just different. And we should be able to say that even without a diagnosis, but like, but we don't, but we don't. And so you know, that there is that it can. And I think it also allows space, unfortunately, in our society, to be able to better integrate that into our sense of self. Yeah. Because like, we've talked about being alienated from ourselves, because it's like, This is who I think I might be, or I am. But again, as you said, I've been told I'm wrong my whole life. So I don't want to be that I don't want to be I don't want to be that that's not that's a bad place to be. Yeah, cuz that's a, it's not a great person. And if I could just be everybody keeps telling me if I could just be more X, Y, and Z would be happier. So I'll be good. Yeah, so I guess that I, you know, I guess this this version of me bad. This version of me good. Let

Aimée Morrison

42:06

me point it to our listeners can't see you pointing far off into the distance, this version of me this somewhere else? You can't even see the horizon. I could just Yeah. If.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

42:17

And, and then. So the sword again, get that diagnosis is where you can, we've said before stopping ourselves up, and then you know, have all of these epiphanies about work about rest about, you know, figuring out who we are and what that means, right?

Aimée Morrison

42:33

Yeah. And again, and I think you're right, when you say like, we should be able to do this even without a diagnosis, and we should because I think the normies are not okay. We know, they're not like I because I see them in the advice columns, right? And they're like, they're like, I don't know about this, because my boyfriend says, I'm like, run girl, right? It's like, I should try harder. I'm like, No, listen, no, or I was like, get a new year's eve thing. And the dress code was pajamas. And one of my friends was there. And she was like, I really want to cut my hair because I feel a lot more like myself with short hair, but I know I'm like prettier with longer hair. And I'm like, Oh, that's a fucking riddle. Right? Yeah, like, so you're saying? You like yourself better? You feel more authentically like yourself with short hair. But you're prettier. If it's longer, like what is pretty look like if you are cringing on the inside? Because you're like, right? I'm like, What even is this? I'm like, Ask an Autistic person autistic person says cut your fucking hair. Yeah, right? Just who gives a shit? anybody

Speaker 1

43:31

over the age of 45. The woman over the age of 45 is like, fuck that shit.

Aimée Morrison

43:36

I actually just looked at her and I pointed at my own head. I said, I feel more like myself with short hair. I'm plenty pretty. Thank you. Right? Yeah. Thanks for asking. I made it awkward because I want to say it's what I do. Right? So the people should just be able to say I don't like loud fun, right? Or I'm a one activity per day person, or whatever it happens to be or like, here's something that I know is going to happen to me this may happen to you is like my leisure activities are so engrossing because they're usually my special interest is that I could do them for 400 years at a high degree of skill and quality and not get tired. Right? Because it's what I want to do like when I'm in the research zone. Oh yeah. Stop me like asked me about the anatomy of the hand Lee because I've read four books about this, including books that I've been ordering secondhand off the internet. This one is called tone deaf and all thumbs and I cannot recommend it highly enough. So but what will happen I will tell you right now is I will go back to work next week. And people be like, What did you do on the break? And I'd be like, Well, my kid got me a book about how to use procreate. So I learned how to use procreate on my iPad. Here's five drawings I did on procreate. I was working on this pencil drawing realist sketch. Oh, this pair of pants I'm wearing. I made these. It's my first ever pair of pants. They're pretty complicated, but I did it. And also, I learned a new Beethoven song and they'll be like, oh, boy, I don't know why you don't get anything done at work. Right? So there's like also sometimes we carry around this fear of like when we're quote unquote productive but only at activities that don't matter, yeah, then it means that we should be able to bring that level of energy to everything else. It's like, Oh, I saw you at the Taylor Swift concert completely losing your shit for three hours and jumping up and down and like you couldn't stay awake and that all hands 400 person staff meeting. It's a different kind of event. Right? It's kind of event. Yeah. It's, it's funny. I don't get tired from doing my hobbies. Right? Yeah,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

45:23

the more they see that I see that acutely in me about that he can play Magic the Gathering, because that's the thing he is now obsessed with. I think I've mentioned that where like, he will go to school for three or four hours, and come home absolutely exhausted. And just be like, I have to sleep. I need recovery, all that kind of stuff. I will drop them off tomorrow on Saturday. Cuz it's Friday right now, because that's when we record and my dog just came into the room. That's what you heard in the jungle. Yeah. And he will, if I could leave him there for 24 hours. Yeah. And he would just play Magic the entire time. We're talking about magic. Yeah, with the people who are there. Like, I'll drop him off early. And I'm like, you really want to be here this early. He's like, Yeah, nobody really shows up to start playing. But the staff all know me. So we just stand around talking about magic the entire time. And then people come in, then we'll start playing some games. And I was like, okay, and not like, I mean, don't get me wrong, he'll come he comes home. Once he's home. He's tired. And he sleeps. Yeah. But like, if I dropped him off there at 10am. And then the store closes at 10pm. And I left him there all day to play Magic. He would play Magic all day without any problems whatsoever. Yeah.

Aimée Morrison

46:39

So like the way it works for me, like let's say, like, let's say I'm at work in ag Hall, and I am working on a syllabus for like, two hours nonstop. And then I'm like, You know what, I'm hungry, and my brain is fried. I have snacks in my desk, I could sit there, close my door, have my snacks and stare off into space. And then 10 minutes later, I will still be exhausted. But if I shove my snacks in my face, go downstairs and play the piano for 10 minutes. Yeah, I want to get back to work after because I from doing the thing that I wanted to do my leisure activity, I actually have more energy to go back to work. So if I was going to like, let's say, on Mondays and Wednesdays this semester, I teach at 1130. So I'd probably have to leave here around 1030 to make sure I get there and plenty of time. If I get up in the morning. And I'm like, I'm going to do my piano practice first thing in the morning for an hour and a half, I will be better able to teach than if I reviewed my notes for that amount of time, right. So sometimes people like all this time you spend on your hobbies on your rest on your leisure is time you're taking away from work. But if I'm not actually doing it in the hours that I'm meant to be working right. As long as my tasks are getting done, what I find is like when I do knitting, it helps them pay attention to meetings. When I take two hours in the evening and I really focus on a pencil drawing I'm trying to do it's a completely different experience than just staring at my phone for two hours. I actually feel like I could grade five papers now. Yeah, if I had to do it I mean it gives me

Lee Skallerup Bessette

48:04

why my dog is barking I don't even going to edit this out because why even bother right? My dog has decided to take up he's gotten very old and you want to talk about rest?

Aimée Morrison

48:15

Oh this guy over the holidays has

Lee Skallerup Bessette

48:19

gotten more sleepy and more ornery like me but but also we're joking that he's discovered a new religion in which he doesn't believe in stairs anymore.

Aimée Morrison

48:36

Must be carried. Yes must

Lee Skallerup Bessette

48:37

be carried must be carried cries on stairs and on couches and not anywhere else in newspapers. Listen, that's

Aimée Morrison

48:43

the Terry Eagleton joke at the beginning of literary theory and introduction. Do you remember where it's like dogs must be carried on the escalator. Right about the ambiguity of science right? Oh, yeah. Can you not get on the escalator? If you're not holding a dog? Right dogs must be carried dog. So it's like that's your dog dog. Yeah,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

49:01

that's my dog. Oh, no dog must be carried within snuggled and snug must be snuggled as well holding on like a baby. That's how Yeah, I have I have a billion pictures of my kids holding him like a baby and him just like snuggling up and being like, this is how I sleep now. Right? Like, okay, weirdo. Like, you get rest the way you need to get rescued. Like let's just hang on a little longer here. Are we talking about more rest? Oh, no. And that's I was thinking about like, that's why I kind of like having my sewing room directly behind my office and I'm pointing over my shoulder. And this is an audio podcast

Aimée Morrison

49:35

organized.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

49:36

I know. It's eautiful Yeah, it's not it's organized in in the way only I can do it. Like all my patterns are up on the wall and that's great. There's threading everything. But then there's also like a dumpster fire of fabric. Well, I

Aimée Morrison

49:49

wasn't gonna mention. Yeah,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

49:50

no, no, it's fine. This is this is how I roll and, um, but it helps where I can take a break from doing the thing and if I Have a little bit of time between meetings, but not enough time to do anything meaningful with work. It's like, alright, well, I'm just gonna go and, you know, cut another couple pattern pieces or do another scene or, you know, men this this dress that I really liked, but now as a whole under the armpit because I've worn it so much, right. Like, it just seemed like your will to live. Yes, exactly. And you're ready for the next meeting? Yeah. And exercises. And I think this is the other thing that I realized today, just today, you know, talking about sewing as a hobby, because we're in a meeting and before it started, you know, compliment I made my shirt that I'm wearing right now. And they complimented it. And I was talking about how I sew and one of the people said, Oh, I just never had that gift. I never I can't seem to think that way. And I'm like, Well, let me tell you something. Neither did I. But it has helped because it's exercise a different part of my brain is trained a different part of my brain that is now thinking about 3d shapes and how things fit and and all that kind of stuff. Oh, no, I've lost you. Can you hear me?

Aimée Morrison

51:13

Yeah.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

51:14

Oh, there you are. You're back. My internet connection is currently unstable. Sorry.

Aimée Morrison

51:19

It's very spacial awareness. And again, you're using a completely different part of your your brain for that. It's a little bit like, you know, when you're a kid, and you're like, I can't finish this pork chop, and then like, well, there's cake. You're like, I want cake. And they're like, how can you be hungry for cake? If you're hungry for pork chop? Right? Like, listen, have you had a pork chop? And have you had cake? Why are you even asking me this? Right? Yeah, so like, sometimes people will I will tell us neurodivergent people because I know all of us get our joy from our special interests is that people will say, Well, you stayed up till 11 building that model ship inside of that glass bottle. Why didn't you just grade 10 more papers? Right? I'm like, listen, bitch, the

Speaker 1

51:57

only reason I'm like middle grade up hold your hand right

Aimée Morrison

52:01

now is because I did this thing right? Yes me my life back. It's like a Tesla battery that you have to plug it right using indulging in our rest activities, which are our hobbies related to our special interests. Maybe it's Magic, The Gathering. Maybe it's like I don't know producing buttons that you give away to people. Maybe it's like Keith Haring I guess I just so you carrying exhibit.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

52:24

Cassie does Lego now she makes all the Lego flowers. Yeah. Like

Aimée Morrison

52:28

so. Yeah. Keith Haring used to ride the subway in New York and get off at every stop where they used to cover the expired advertising posters with black paper. And he would just drop drawings on them for five years, every day for five years 1000s and 1000s of them. And he was like becoming to be like a famous artist. He stopped being them when too many people were ripping them down. Right. But he just did it because he loved doing it. Yeah, right. Exactly. It was like, it's like, oh, it's taking away from your gallery shows. But it wasn't right. It was feeding his creativity and giving him the zest he needed. So when you take a break between meetings to cut out sewing patterns, gives you your creative juices back and makes you a better attender activity and maybe it's not the same for neurotypical people. I don't know. I don't seem to know any neurotypical people. But I know. Is that weird? I said

Lee Skallerup Bessette

53:13

funny how this ended up happening. When all of our friends on Twitter are all getting diagnosed with ADHD or autism. That's so weird.

Aimée Morrison

53:21

As soon as they get health plans, they will get diagnosed. It's weird how that works, right? You can finally afford therapy or find a therapist. But yeah, so So neurodivergent friends, do not let people shame you about the energy that you bring to your hobbies if you bring energy to your hobbies, right? Because people will say, Well, how come you can't you know, right, that five page essay for your grade 12 French class, but you could spend six hours drawing original characters for your comic book, I don't know where that example is drawn from perhaps my house, right? It's mostly to say, That's right. And as long as you're not finishing the drawing and saying that's it, I can't think one more thought today. It's usually not the case. It's usually like, Okay, I'm happy enough now that I can burn off some of my happiness by trying to do this stupid essay. I don't want to do Yeah, right. That's how it works. And I don't know how it works for neurotypical people. But if you're a neurodivergent person, and you find that you can find the energy for your hobbies and your special interests, when you cannot find energy for anything else, please do your activity and your special interest because it will give you back the energy you need are the things that you don't want to do. And this is true for neurotypical people as well. This is what all of the January wellness stuff is about. It's like if you rest you will get better, right? You will have more energy you will be more creative thinker, all of these things, right? If any of us do really know how to do this, but we don't let ourselves because people shame us for it. And

Lee Skallerup Bessette

54:40

and I would say really reflect on why. Right? Why? You know, like, is it like for us again, as I said, Do the creative thing and don't feel bad because it's not contributed capitalism even though really at the end of the day, it allows us to be productive in our jobs. Um, but we also find joy so that's okay. Um, But it's like, I think a lot of like, as you say the normies are not okay. I think it's because what's the point of resting? And if it's just going to get churned back out again in the burnout culture, right like that. So I mean, that's the sort of thing where it's like, why am I resting? What is this for? Listen, we like taking these deep breaths, just to go back to

Aimée Morrison

55:24

William Morris had this figured out, you know, your pre raphaelites And your auntie industrialists and your late Victorian era refuseniks, the handmade furniture movement, you know, those people, Liberty fabrics, all those people will hear was their idea, right? In the age of industrialization, which is the beginning of speedup culture was eight, eight and eight, eight for work, eight for rest, and eight for leisure, and rest and leisure are different shapes, right? For work, not as many hours of work as you can fit in until you pass out, because that winds up being 16 for work, five, for rest, and then like, whatever it was the number left over three for do scrolling. Right? It's not how it's meant to be right. Like it was never meant to be that your entire value proposition as a human being came out of how many hours you can sit in a chair at your work, right? Or how many hours you can like run the the Etsy shop where whatever it is that you're doing for money, right? Like that's not supposed to it was supposed to eight hours for that? Eight hours for getting enough energy to do it again the next day, and then eight hours for whatever the fuck you want. Yeah, right. Maybe it's going canoeing, maybe it's Doom scrolling. But if that's your choice, that's your choice. Maybe it's sitting next to your kids and getting snuggles from them while you watch TV. Maybe it's knitting mittens while making fun of your sister's inability to crochet stuff. Like I don't know what it is, right? But it's supposed to be eight hours every day. And I think actually many of us have it. Yeah, but we're stealing it during the 12 hours we spend at work, and we're spending it on like what I call my husband's use of face talk, which is tick tock videos you see on Facebook, right? Oh, just yeah, you're just hypnotizing yourself there right so that the time is going somewhere. We're just not intentionally using it for the things that actively bring us joy, eight for work, eight for rest and eight for leisure. I've been trying to explain this to my undergrads and they do not get it. No, oh, gosh, no, they don't get it. They don't get it. They honestly just think like work and work and work. And someday I'll be rich. I'm like, what are you gonna do when you're rich? And they're like, get richer. I'm like, great. What's the endgame here? Right. The endgame is like to win the social status game while the more people play it, the tougher it gets to win, right? Like, and you're never ever going to win it. Why not? Just take the weekend off? Like go hug a tree or something? I don't know. Dig some dirt touch some grass. Like,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

57:40

and if you do go on a trip make it a vacation. Not a not a not a not travel.

Aimée Morrison

57:45

It's not the Amazing Race, right? Turn all of our vacations into the Amazing Race. But what a nightmare. Yeah, nightmare.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

57:54

What do you mean, you didn't see all the things there were to see in Italy. I we saw lamber. I looked at it for four straight days. Stressing

Aimée Morrison

58:02

out there's like so many people, the lineup was too long. I was getting all wigged out about I don't want to spend my whole vacation in line worried if I'm going to get in with my time group or not. So let's go walk down by the river. Like let's go sit in a cafe and see how long we can go before the guy brings us are built forever. How long? Until you ask. Right? Great. That's like recalibrating in a way that I think really suited me and I think it's suited you and it's suited your kids. And I prevented myself from making a joke when you were talking about those Americans you saw at the restaurant. I was like, oh, did you hear them? Firstly, did you know they were Americans? Because you could hear them across the restaurant? Because that was our experience in France is wherever they were America. They

Lee Skallerup Bessette

58:41

hear us across the restaurant like this is you are very loud. That's true. This is your this is my daughter saying that You are embarrassing the bomb.

Aimée Morrison

58:49

Right? Oh, yeah. Topic Americans.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

58:53

Yeah. off top. You know, you can hear me from a while why? I'm loud American or Canadian. You are even when I was Canadian. I was loud. You got your green card, the volume test your volume test. So my daughter accused me of acting like a millennial.

Aimée Morrison

59:12

Oh, that's weird. Get sure if insulted or complimented? No, it was an insult. What? What did you ruin napkins or brunch or something? What did you do?

Lee Skallerup Bessette

59:21

I was that she was like, I was like, I'm not a millennial. I'm a Gen X. And she's like, No, you're not. I'm like, Yes, I was born in the 70s and Gen X. And she's like, Well, you certainly don't act like one. And I'm like a one Gen X act like because no one ever talks about

Aimée Morrison

59:34

Oh, no. Nobody knows your Gen X club first rule of Gen X club is don't talk about Gen X club

Lee Skallerup Bessette

59:43

well, actually First Gen X club is make sure no one else talks about you. Yeah,

Aimée Morrison

59:48

that's right. Yeah. Tumor Oh, yeah. That's they do that to drive me bananas.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

59:55

Yes. Yeah. Well, and she she knew it would drive she knew well, I don't know. She It would drive me bananas, but she really meant it derisively. And I'm just like, how is that? How am I acting like a millennial? She's like, she's how you act?

Aimée Morrison

01:00:08

Oh, yeah. I don't have any specifics. It's just the vibe. The vibe is bad.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:00:13

Yeah, the vibe isn't you're a millennial. And I'm like, well, maybe this is how Gen X X. You don't know. No, no.

Aimée Morrison

01:00:20

Oh my god. I was with an actual millennial at a party the other day and we were playing cards against humanity. And one of the cards she never played was Ronald Reagan. She said, I don't even know who that is. Oh, my God. I know. And then I died a little on the inside. Listeners if you don't know, Ronald Reagan was a fairly important president from 1980s. To the end of 1987. To turn president, former governor of California Reaganomics, right. Star Wars, the Soviet defense plan, right. Perestroika all that stuff. That was that was Ronald Reagan, you know, subject of many a punk song, right? Yeah. denier of the existence of AIDS. Famously married to Nancy just say no, this is your brain on drugs. Were of red dresses and stuff. I was just like, appalled. That was like, Maybe I am a boomer. I thought to myself, as this youngster did not know who Ronald Reagan was. And my husband said to me, Well, I mean, when was she born? Like, why would she know? I'm like, I know the President's American presidents all the way back to like the turn of the century and then sporadically. Before that, right? Yeah. Like it's it's not uncommon. If there's a Cards Against Humanity card that says Ronald Reagan on it. That's common knowledge. I don't think you should be stumped by something that's Cards Against Humanity the answer, like,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:01:37

like, I mean, yeah. And we're Canadian, for God's sakes. Like it's like, I know, Mr. Presidents. Yeah, I probably know the American presidents better than the than Canadian Prime Minister is going back. It's like anything pre trib.

Aimée Morrison

01:01:52

Hear me brag about that. Right? There's another Trudeau. He just kept together. Trudeau he

Unknown Speaker

01:01:56

was like, the first Trudeau anything before the first.

Aimée Morrison

01:02:00

Oh, I see. Shit. And it was Diefenbaker. That was Diefenbaker. Before it was America. And regret before Trudeau one of the times it was Joe Clark, right. Wait. This is? Yeah, he was for six months. And like, oh, yeah, like this, Lee. I like this. Okay. Why? Why? It's just

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:02:22

so my kids all know who all these people are, but only because I'm married to political scientists. Yeah,

Aimée Morrison

01:02:27

I mean, I wrote my dissertation on the 80s. So this is probably my Ronald Reagan moment. Yeah. But

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:02:33

I mean, I didn't write my dissertation on Nixon. And I know who takes Richard Nixon.

Aimée Morrison

01:02:38

Well, that's because Richard Nixon resigned on the day my sister was born August the ninth 1974. In case why am I like this? I'm being so autistic right now. I hear it. I hear it's fine.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:02:48

I am sorry. Listeners love it. They wouldn't they? I mean, they knew what they were getting into when they press play on this podcast and an hour

Aimée Morrison

01:02:57

and a bit ago. They were just surprised. Yeah, one of my grandson's was like Wonder your recording and other podcasts. I'm like, what I feel like it. Yeah. Don't push me Kelly. Was it was bad enough.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:03:10

slides into my DMs once a week on Fridays, we like podcast

Aimée Morrison

01:03:13

and I'm like, Oops. Right. And I'm like, But don't you worry. When we finally get one done? It'll be at least an hour long. So now it's definitely an hour long. So we should probably stop because I have teenagers in my house right now that I forced to be quiet. And

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:03:26

we'll toast Yeah, that's yeah. I have a dog who's like apoplectic right now where it's like people are home, but all in different rooms and this

Aimée Morrison

01:03:34

cannot stand right. Yeah, my dog is like that, too. I also have to stage of photo shoots, so I get the best pictures of my new pants I just made. Oh, yeah, honestly, I did a blind hem that will not be believed. I'm looking at blind hands now right?

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:03:48

Now. Show me because I'm like terrified of pants and blind hands. I'm

Aimée Morrison

01:03:52

like, Really,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:03:53

I go all in on the visual visible stitching. I'm like, Oh, this is gonna look like something. I'm gonna make it

Aimée Morrison

01:03:58

look really short legs. So the blind hem is my friend. Honestly makes it with the machine and I can do it by hand. Tom's like, are you gonna get a PhD in sewing now? I'm like, shut up. You don't know me?

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:04:09

Yeah, I'm well on my way. So don't feel bad. It's like, I

Aimée Morrison

01:04:14

know. You're guiding me through this leading the way. Leading the way, if you will. Oh my god. It's a dad joke. I spent too long with my husband these past few weeks. I'm full of dad jokes now. Okay, I gotta start going to reheat my egg roll a second time. Okay, I'm going to let the teenagers begin to speak loudly again and practice some Beethoven because I placed my pants so in project

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:04:35

I'm gonna go watch some more Dungeons and Dragons. Shout out dimension 20 Drop out TV. It's an app. Anyway. It's no it's fascinating to me. So they were College Humor originally. Yeah, so they were all College Humor originally and And it was all people who were sort of loosely affiliated with Upright Citizens Brigade. And so they started calling humor. And I was talking with people online who I've slowly discovered who are like my around my age who are also starting to watch this stuff where I was like, you know, I think we ignored this in the beginning because we were just the wrong age for College Humor where it was just like, Oh, God,

Aimée Morrison

01:05:19

do you remember the basic bro sketch?

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:05:22

Oh my god. Nice. Yeah. Well, that's, that's them. Yeah, well, there's already notes. And now they're nerding out and doing Dungeons and Dragons.

Aimée Morrison

01:05:33

Adam Ruins Everything start on College Humor? I think so. I think so. Yeah, that was, yeah, yeah. Sorry. I'm all up in that, because that's what I teach. Oh, yeah. Anyhow, we were supposed to stop the podcast now.

Unknown Speaker

01:05:43

Yeah, I know. Are we

Aimée Morrison

01:05:45

supposed to stop the podcast kind of supposed to start?

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:05:47

We should we should say though, if you want to check out Amy's pants that she's talking about and my shirt that I'm talking about? You can find us on Instagram. I'm ready writing. I also have a sewing one. If all you want are my clothes. I'm ready writing so is on Instagram as well. Yeah, no, I didn't even know that. Yeah, I'm ready. Ready. And so I mean, I share everything that I sell also on the regular one because it goes up on Facebook. But I created another one just for sewing because

Aimée Morrison

01:06:13

oh my god, you have like a fin stuff for sewing. Yeah, I didn't even know. Okay, well,

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:06:19

I'm sure it was. What's your Instagram? Amy? So they eautiful

Aimée Morrison

01:06:23

Did you just like on that health site? Um, did you walk on all the sites and my parents will be there and me in them? Yeah.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:06:30

Alright, so we'll be back sometime. You know, eventually, you know, the very long episode again. Yeah. And I'm sure something. I'm sure something will troll me on the New York Times that will?

Aimée Morrison

01:06:42

Yeah. Honestly, they can't be serious with this. They really can't. But I guess they are. I don't. Yeah.

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:06:49

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Anyways, let's get into the New York Times. Alright. So yeah, you can also email us at all the things ADHD gmail.com. A parent all the things. Oh, apparently. Now on Spotify automatically. They ask, What do you think? What did you think of this episode with people trying to have a conversation around it? And we get comments that way that I didn't know we did.

Aimée Morrison

01:07:11

Yeah. Oh, thanks, Spotify. Yeah, what? Yeah, sure. All right, I'll go look for that. No, don't

Lee Skallerup Bessette

01:07:17

worry about it. Don't do that. Send us an email. Yeah, just send us it. No, it's fine, too. Because I have now that I know that exist. I'll go look at them. You know, I comment on the blog comment on Spotify comment wherever, like I don't, you know, there's, there's a lot of you, which is so nice and heartening. And my Spotify rap was was beautiful for the podcast when I was finally able to make it work. So that was a nice way to end the year. And, yeah, well, my,

Aimée Morrison

01:07:44

I just have to say now I'm like, I'm interrupting my digital lives class. They had a final exam in December. And the news article they had to respond to was about Spotify wrapped. Boys. These kids had a lot of opinions about Spotify wrapped, but maybe we'll talk about that another time.

Speaker 1

01:08:00

Yeah. All right. So take care of everyone and I will see you next time. Bye,

Aimée Morrison

01:08:04

everybody.

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