In this episode, I'm joined by Delson Armstrong, spiritual teacher and star student of meditation teacher Bantay Vimala. Ramsay who's seen your student David Johnson has said, Doesn't Armstrong has mastered every practice we've given him. He is the most amazing student we've ever seen. In this interview. Delson recalls his early life training in the Himalayas, where he mastered the system of Patanjali Yoga Sutras, attaining to all of its highest states of Samadhi attained all six levels of Kriya Yoga under three separate lineages studied Sanskrit and was exposed to practices of Shiva Tantra through students of Asha Delson shares his subsequent explorations of Buddhism, including Maha Mudra Chen and the twin practice of Bantay Vemula ramsI. Delson recounts and contrasts his experiences accomplishing the eight Janas attaining the four levels of Buddhist awakening and realizing rigpa. Delson also reveals yogic feats, such as recalling past lives and entering into a type of suspended animation called nirodha Samadhi for up to six days and reveals his passion for neuroscience and recent participation in a study at the University of Amsterdam that has examined his brain and body in this state of yogic suspension. So without further ado, Delson Armstrong, does an Armstrong, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Steve. It's good to be here.
Well, I'm very pleased to be talking with you Delson and especially pleased after the introduction that David Johnston, author of a path to Nirvana, and the student of Bantay Villa ramsI. I'm even more interested after his introduction to you, which I might read to you. Now, if you don't mind. Delson Armstrong has mastered every practice we've given him. He's the most amazing student we've ever seen. And he's completely open to talking about everything and his experiences. He remembers many past lives as a yogi in the Himalayas. And in other realms, he's mastered the jhanas in the way, Bantay, that's Bantay Vimla ramsI. In the way Bantay teaches, right from the suitors as Bantay V explains them, you will be happy to explain to your audience how one goes through the Janus and makes the final leap to Nirvana and all of the four levels of attainment, he can talk about the special state of the ANA gammy and the Arhat, whereby you make a determination to sit in the state of naroda, or cessation, there's no breath, and perhaps two heartbeats a minute, he just allowed himself to be measured at another research center. So that was David's introduction to you, when he suggested we suggested you for the podcast and so amazing. And on the basis of that I'm very, very, very pleased to meet you.
It's a wonderful introduction, I really appreciate that.
Could you talk a little bit about your life story, how it was you grew up, etc. And you went through a number of spiritual systems to quite a high degree of attainment. Before it was that you came to the method that you're currently working in now, this trim and so on with Pantone and other MCs teachings. So could you just take us through the arc of your story and how it was we're speaking now. Sure.
So I was born in India. And I lived there for the first five years of my life, we move them to the US. I grew up in New Jersey, New York. So most of my life up until the age of 13, was basically barely American childhood. And I was born in that part of, well, part of this time where, you know, we were just being introduced to computers. And so I had the best of both worlds, if you would, because I I remember playing, you know, basketball and going biking in the summers, but at the same time being being able to play video games on the computer and Playstation and so on and so
forth. You were born in 1990. That's correct.
Yeah. So I, I wasn't really introduced to spirituality assessed. My parents, were very open minded. I grew up in a Catholic household, actually. And my mom's been pretty much a very devout Catholic, but she was very open minded about things. And she let me explore all kinds of different philosophies for myself. They were not very imposing on what I should believe or what I shouldn't believe. And I remember, we went to India, when I was about 11, or 12. And it was quite a culture shock, because I had very little memory of India at that time. And, you know, I don't know if you've been to India, but as soon as you go to India, and you'll and you know, it's just it bombards the senses, there's just noise everywhere. There's all kinds of interesting smells and tastes and the warmth and the humidity and, you know, it's just an onslaught on the senses. And then that was really my first introduction. You Let's say the different kinds of belief systems from Asia, particularly India. And I was quite fascinated by it and quite curious about it. And when we get when we, when we came back, there was a family friend who introduced me to Hatha Yoga, he took me to a yoga studio. And we did all kinds of asanas. And I found that it was quite, it came quite naturally, to me. And there was a lot of very advanced postures, we did like the headstand like the shoulder stand, and things like that. Of course, I needed a little bit of help. But you know, once I was there was just amazing. And then we came out of that session about an hour later. And I remember just feeling very, like, you know, elated and floating. And I was, I was just so surprised that, you know, using this kind of process, and mind you, I was only 13 or 14 at the time, so I wasn't really aware that this was possible. So, you know, I asked him like, Is this possible to do like every single time and how, you know, where does this come from? And he gave me this book. It was like a compendium of different kinds of postures and breathing techniques and meditation techniques. And so I devoured that book. And I looked for more books and search for more books and started reading, that I had a chance to actually go back to India at the age of 1413, or 14. And I studied at an international school in a place called Gurgaon, it's like north of New Delhi. And I was introduced to all kinds of interesting people from all around the world and had a very interesting education. But I was also very much interested in meditation. And so over there, I actually met a yogi. He was a teacher there, but he was also a yogi. And, you know, I shared a lot of my, my thoughts about life in school life and this and that, and, you know, I had a fairly normal school life, but then I kind of got disenchanted with it quite early. By the time I was 16, I decided to take a little break from school and went to the Himalayas. And that's where things took an interesting turn because I got introduced to a lot of interesting teachers and gurus and you know, it was just it was majestic. We went up. We went up to the Ganges, we went up to a place called Haridwar Rishikesh up to with their Kashi, and we spent most of our time in with their Kashi, which is still but foothills of the Himalayas. And I got introduced to yoga philosophy, I got introduced to Vedanta, Advaita Vedanta, I got introduced to sanchia. And all kinds of interesting texts, like you said, Yoga Sutras, yoga Vashistha, which is a very interesting one.
And also some some kind of, you know, sheer Kashmir, Shaivism, and Tantra, and things like that. So, my education in spirituality really started there at the age of 16. And I got interested in learning more about the these different kinds of states. So I started learning Sanskrit as best as I could. So I could go back to the original texts and really understand what they're saying, because sometimes the translations of these texts aren't always the greatest. You know, they're wonderful to have for the English speaker. But it's great to go back to the Sanskrit or the Pali. And you get a different connotation from reading it directly in Sanskrit. So I had a chance to study the Yoga Sutras for quite some time. Then I got introduced to kriya yoga, and I got introduced to Kriya Yoga under three different lineages under the lineage of Yogananda with his self realization fellowship in Encinitas. They have a Indian Foundation, which is called the Wi SS et Cie, you'll go to satsang society. That's really where I got introduced to it. The second lineage was under Lahiri Mahasaya, who's actually the guru of yoga and under school, so you're going under school, it was UK, sure. And UK she was greeted was Larry masa. He's really the guy who formulated all of the different practices under under kriya yoga. And I had a I had a teacher who was a direct, direct student of one of Maha Shai is Laurie Masha, his grandsons. Two, it was sort of a derrick lineage from there, so I was introduced to that particular niche. And in the third lineage was under Paramhansa, Harihara Nanda, who actually was a student of UPA schwa. And in that particular niche, there were six degrees of Kriya Yoga, which I went through, and they get more and more refined in terms of the breathing techniques in terms of the different postures. And there are different kinds of things that you go through when you don't do those kinds of techniques. Because what you're really doing Is your manipulating the Kundalini in a certain way through the spine in different parts of the body to awaken different kinds of centers. So that was very interesting. I had a lot of great experiences from that. And then I really went back to understanding the teachings of Ramana Maharshi. It was introduced to some people who knew Nisargadatta Nisargadatta Maharaj. And Jai Krishna Murthy, as well as ug Krishnamurti. So I've had a very diverse, let's say, you know, spiritual education. And in terms of the Yoga Sutras, there are some levels of Samadhi that talked about that seem to be very esoteric. But if you really break it down, it's quite simple, and it's quite easy to follow. But it gets a little more
well, not necessarily esoteric, but it gets more refined in terms of this different kinds of states of mind. Because they're the more advanced states of mind that you get into where language stops being able to explain some of the things that are happening, you know, the language can only point to certain parts of these states. So then, you know, I went back to, I went back to the States, and I actually studied at the New York Film Academy. So I did screenwriting and ghost writing, and I wrote some novels and things like that, and that was 10 years ago. And I went to San Diego where I helped develop an app, I was working at a public company. And then I got introduced to Bhante Miller MC, and like most people, you know, I was just looking for different kinds of meditation techniques in on on Buddhists in Buddhism. And I was interested in Tibetan Buddhism. So I got introduced to the auction and Maha Mudra for some time. But then I also was interested in metta meditation, and the Brahma Vihara, which is really the forte of the twin practice. So I did a search on YouTube for metta meditation, and lo and behold, we have on David muram. See on there, and I didn't really understand much of what he was saying in the beginning, because he was talking directly from the suit does. And a lot of the a lot of the understanding of the suit is you really get like after you do the practice. So actually, I had a chance to do an online retreat with David Johnson, as you mentioned, and I had a chance to meet Vontae, a year two after that. And he was doing a retreat in California, they usually Eastern retreat that he does annually. And I only went inside for about a day. And we had a good conversation about the the more refined states within twin, what we call the jhanas. And the different states that are within the John has like different experiences that are going on. And at the end of the conversation, he said, Are you interested in, in teaching? And I said, well, with your permission, yeah, I think I could start teaching. And he said, Well, please go ahead and start teaching. And so I started off teaching online, through the Dhamma sukha Meditation Center website. But I took a little bit of a break, and then went back to Asia. And I had another experience with twin and it was a very profound experience. And I went back into the sutras and started to really understand what was going on when we were talking about the suitors. Because if you read the sutras just as it is, it's very interesting language because it's almost like a secret code. And once you experience certain things, it starts unlocking and unpacking a lot of the things that the Buddha or the other arhats, in the suitors are talking about. And, you know, it was about about three years in between when I met Dante and before I actually started teaching as such. And so that started off with people sending me emails, and then getting on phone calls, and then on Skype and zoom, and then the pandemic hit. And so during the pandemic, you know, somebody suggested, Why don't you do weekly Dharma talks? And I said, Okay, fine, I'll do that. And that's really how it started. And then that grew. So I've been working with the SUTA vada Foundation, which is a sister organization without Asuka and, you know, they've been arranging different kinds of online retreats with me teaching them and now we're just starting to get into physical retreats. So really, that's that's been the journey so far.
Fascinating. Yeah, that's a lot of systems to go through. And you've said publicly that you attained the highest levels of Samadhi laid out in the Yoga Sutras which is predicated on concentration power, it seems at least at least, seems to be a big part of it. You've also said these, the six levels of this of a particular Kriya Yoga lineage, and so on. I'm curious if you could describe a little bit your experience with each of those, say, starting with yoga sutras when you first began to practice. What was it like? And what was the journey there? It seems an unusually rapid rate of progress. Or perhaps you had unusually clear teaching to what would you attribute your remarkable success in these different systems,
I probably should first owe it to my teachers, because they were very clear in giving me a very good sort of grounding and a very good foundation in in the yoga sutras. I mean, you know, before we started to get into the later parts of the Yoga Sutras, in terms of the the Ashtanga Yoga Marg, as it's called, which is really, you know, we talk about Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama, Pratyahara, Dharana, Dhyana, and Samadhi. So, when I started getting into the practice, you know, it was very much important to establish EMI Neoma, which is really related to the the ethics of it, you know, not lying, not stealing, and so on, and which is, which is very similar to the Buddhist principles. And in fact, you'll find this quite universal in any tradition, the ethics part of it, and then things related to the body and how to clean the body and how to maintain different kinds of levels of let's say, spiritual, emotional and mental cleanliness, which is part of that Yama, Yama process. And then only that after that, you know, we started getting getting into asanas. And what I realized about asanas is yes, Hatha Yoga has a lot of benefits in terms of the health benefits in terms of helping keep the body keeping the body supple, and energetic and so on. But if you go back to the Yoga Sutras, what it talks about is that, you know, any kind of us that is simple, and keeps you steady and comfortable, is considered an Asana. So, I decided to master only one or two asanas at the most, I did the whole practice of different kinds of, you know, vinyasa 's and different things in Hatha Yoga, but my favorite posture was the shoulder stand. The headstand not so much my teacher said, you know, the headstand is not really that important for you. But if you can do the shoulder stand, that will be great. So I did the shoulder stand and the plow, which is when you take your body, you know, all the way your feet all the way to the back. And that kind of unlock certain things in the body. In terms of the way I guess, pressure points, or different parts of the spine were kind of, you know, twisted in a certain way. So that really prepared me let's say for the different parts of pranayama Kriya Yoga includes some parts of us na in some parts of prana. I am. And I was introduced to the basics of pranayama, which include the alternate nostril breathing, and what's known as Capella bati. If Allah Bharti is basically known as the skull shining, breathing technique, and my teacher had me do like 100 at a time 200 at a time, and there was a point where I started doing 2000 at a time. So it was like a progressive sort of steps in that process. It was only after then that I got introduced into things like kriya, yoga and things in like Pratyahara. And pratyahara is all about withdrawing the senses, being able to center your mind around an object of meditation. And there are different kinds of objects and Objects of Meditation in the yoga sutras. For example, Patanjali talks about using the prana, which is actually the word own or the syllable own, and then centering the minds the tension around that. And then that gets you into a concentrated state of mind, when you start to do that, you start to lose awareness of the six senses, including the mind, because the mind starts to become much quieter, and then you start losing contact with the outside world. Once you have that, there's what's known as Tarana. And Tarana is really where the mind starts to become further concentrated by really, you know, focusing in on that object.
When that happens, there might be different kinds of thoughts and, and different kinds of ideas and concepts that come up in the head. And the point here is to, not to basically to ignore them, and to to just keep your mind centered around that object. The more you do that, the more you then get into what's known as Ghana, and the Ghana is really concentration. Now this is concentration proper, if you will, this is really the mind that becomes super focused. And then the fruit of that practice is Samadhi. Samadhi is understood to be some which means economists or balance or tranquil and the key, which is the intelligence or or the mind. Now, within the Yoga Sutras Patanjali talks about different levels of Samadhi, or different types of Samadhi. Let's say, they're not necessarily levels upon levels, although when you get to the more refined states, you'll see what I mean. The beginning part of it is called Hava, samadhi, and Ananda Samadhi. And this is really related to the joy that somebody feels, there's a certain level of joy that comes about because of that concentrated mind. And from that joy, you experience Susmita Samadhi and a Smith a Samadhi, Susmita. Samadhi is the sense of I Am is present the sense of I am meditating. So it's a division between, let's say, the subject on the object, then us with a Samadhi is where the subject falls away and all there is is the object so to speak. Then you have Sufi Chara Samadhi, Sufi, Turca Samadhi, near V Chara Samadhi and near V. Dorcas, MIT. And what these are is the Chara and vitarka are basically the words for thinking and examining thought. So, there's still some kind of mental activity in subby Cha of savvy Chara, and so vitarka. But in near VT, nearly Chara and near vitarka. That thought process starts to become more silent and eventually goes away completely. And then finally, we have Savi COPPA and Nirvikalpa. And in subby culpa, what it is, is that sense of object is still there, like so there's still a subtle sense of self, a subtle sense of subject looking at that object, even though now we've gone through that process of Susmita and asmita. We still have that process of seeing an object. But then what we talk about when we say sevi, colpa, or Nirvikalpa is basically that word V culpa in those two words, because it means the the alternate, or it can also mean choice, or it can also mean intention. So this is a Samadhi, which is basically the choiceless awareness. Coming back to Krishna Murthy. What we're talking about really is there's a choice, there's an intention to keep focusing on the object in Saudi colpa. But in Nirvikalpa, there's no alternate here there's no choice given, it's just a flow of process. And eventually there is just the object completely. And it's like a merging of the the atman with the Brahman, as we talked about in Vedanta. Now there's another level called Sahaja Samadhi. There's another level called Dharma mega Samadhi. And it's very fascinating. And if you go back into the Yoga Sutras, Patanjali talks about really interesting things that you can do with these states. Because if you focus on certain parts of the body, or if you focus on certain parts of your thoughts, or things like that, you start to develop cities, you start to develop certain kinds of psychic faculties. So he talks about, for example, how do you get to past lives, you know, you get into them by looking at your some scars, some scars are basically the roots of your thoughts that are dependent upon previous choices you made in the past, you start looking at that it kind of it unfolds, and it kind of goes on rewind, and you start to look at different past lives. Then he talks about using this process of samyama, which is taking dharana, dhyana and Samadhi. Together, it's a flow and being able to look at each moment in time. And it's almost like sci fi stuff. Because if you actually look into the Sanskrit what he's talking about is freezing space and time and being able to look at different moments in time. And you start to be able to do this with that process of samyama.
You talk about Kriya Yoga, Kriya Yoga is a process of manipulating different parts of the body or different chakras, as they're called, in the spine. But when you get into the, when you get to the, the fourth and fifth level, you're actually taking that energy of the Kundalini and going outside of the spine, you make certain kinds of movements that affect the way that that Kundalini starts to move up. And it's not about bringing it up through the spine, but through a certain kind of circuit that moves basically like a snake up towards the the crown chakra. And it's very intense stuff. I mean, it can be you know, it can get quite intense and some people kind of get freaked out by it because you start you lose complete awareness of the body and you realize there's just consciousness everywhere. And some people get so freaked out that they get they go like, no, no, I don't want any more of this. I need to get back to my body. So are those kinds of things there's certain kinds of techniques that you have to do Kriya Yoga, to keep the mind body complex as it were grounded. So you keep your your, your mind in a way that even if you go to these higher elevated states, you don't freak out because you you have your root chakra open, which keeps you grounded. And then the last parts of the degrees of Kriya Yoga have to do with the centers in the brain. So what that means is you start to develop access into the thalamus and hypothalamus, into the pituitary gland and into the pineal gland. And they start opening up at second secondary chakra, which is really the eighth chakra, which is about about here. So here, we're going through the seven chakras. But once those are open, now you get into this part, which is where they say is a storehouse of your karma. And you do certain kinds of techniques to open that up, and bring that energy down into the pineal gland. So this is some I mean, really, you know, I can tell you all about these things, but the way it's done is really the secret of it. But a lot of people don't like to talk about these different things with Kriya Yoga, because it's a very, very secretive thing. But I never saw the need and importance for it. Because the way I'm explaining these things to you. They give some kind of idea, but not necessarily actual technique of how to do them.
Very fascinating. And I'm curious, much debated the fourth, Yama, Brahmacharya? I'm curious how that's interpreted in your in your training. And actually, when you were going through these systems, how old were you? And what was the time period? Say, I took you a year to do the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, for example, or two years to do kriya yoga, and you started as 16. Can you be precise like that? Is it possible?
Yeah, yeah. So when I was in the Himalayas, at the age of 16, that was my first introduction into the asana and pranayama. So the Yama Niyama part I was trying to do, and they had me first just just do that for about three or four months. And then from there, just focusing on asana and pranayama for about six months to a year, and then getting into the Samadhi parts of it. So by that, by the time I was about 20, or 21, I was starting to do actual meditation. But it was all happening at the same time, if you will. And what I mean by that is, I was getting my introduction into the Yoga Sutras, getting my introduction into the yoga VISTA and other different kinds of techniques. But they were done in a way that kind of fit like a little like a puzzle, you know, they kind of joined together in a very harmonious manner. By the time I was 23, I was basically done with the kriya yoga practice. So it's basically through a seven year span, from the age of 16, to about 23, that I went through that process of going through the Samadhi levels of the Yoga Sutras, and then going through the six degrees of Kriya Yoga, which is, as you said, quite rapid. I mean, it takes for some people, it takes about a good two or three years before they're introduced to the next degree of Kriya Yoga. But I guess I was a bit of a bit of a stubborn and adamant student, with my teachers, and I practice for quite some time. And what I mean by that is, you're looking at about six to eight hours of practice every single day. And that's not the kind of time people necessarily always have to practice. So it kind of got accelerated because of that, because I had the good fortune of spending the majority of my day, if not all my day, in this particular practice, and Brahmacharya, Brahmacharya, yeah, that's an interesting one. So, you know, my teachers were very open with this. And they were, they were the kind of teachers who said, Brahma Chaya, we understand to be celibacy. But they also understood Brahmacharya to be a life where you have controlled sexuality, were in other words, they were very much of the nature of saying, you know, and it wasn't a taboo, you know, sex and sexuality. And these kinds of topics. Were not a taboo at all, I had the good fortune of having teachers who really talked about these things, and, you know, even talked about like the Kama Sutra, and the Kama Sutra is very interesting, because, you know, the Western idea, or it had been that the Western idea of the Kama Sutra was that it's just these different sexual positions and things like that. That's just a very small portion of the Kama Sutra because there's other parts of the Kama Sutra that talk about sex and sexuality in terms of, you know, well, the art of seduction, let's say and, you know, things related to relationships and how long to be in a relationship for and things like that. So I got introduced to that Well, I had the good fortune to be introduced to that. And what they said was, sexuality should be open. But it should be in a way that doesn't harm yourself. And that doesn't harm other people. And obviously within a certain bound, and they did have the understanding of what's known as Oh, Jesus. And the, the, the idea of oh, Jesus is, you know, the, the retention of your sexuality of your semen converted into ologists, and things like that. And but those are very advanced practices, those are things that you know, quite some time. So my teachers were basically have the notion that you're young, and you will have, you know, sexual desires, and there's nothing wrong with it. And there's no, there's no need to suppress it, because as soon as you suppress sexuality, it can go haywire. I mean, we hear about different kinds of students and even certain gurus who go through that process, and it just doesn't become
you know, it just it that repression, you know, becomes something that becomes animalistic. So they were about of the of the idea that sexuality itself is not a taboo, but what you do with it, and how you use it is what matters. But they were of the nature and my teachers were celebrated. They were, they were basically people who went through that process of this tradition, Brahmacharya, but they were open minded enough to know that as a youngster, you have certain drives, and it's important to Okay, pay attention to that. But eventually, as you start to get more and more advanced, you start to lose interest in sexuality, you start to lose interest in sex. And it's a natural process. It's a process that happens, because when you get to these more refined states, you get less and less interested in the in the sensual states, and the levels of the senses and on the level of sex as such. So I think Brahmacharya should be discussed in a way that is sex positive. And it should be discussed in a way that allows people to say, and make the choice of whether they want to be celibate or not, and give them you know, the warnings for both open sexuality, as well as celibacy, and let them make their own decision as to how that helps. But I think, you know, as you get older, quite naturally, you realize, you kind of lose any kind of significance when it comes to sexuality and, and then coupled with the practice, it just isn't an important thing in your life anymore.
And that's the case, presumably, for you. Bantay Vemula, MC has said in, in the interview, in this podcast that Anna gummies, for example, have no sexual desire. In fact, the suitors do, say, and I had, for example, is incapable it's impossible for you to have sexual intercourse. And that's been your experience.
Yeah, yeah, I have lost complete interest in any of that. It's, and it's a natural process, you know, that's what I'm saying, You don't need to suppress it, the mind will start to let go on its own as you do these practices, and specifically, certain kinds of practices like the jhana experiences like Samadhi practice, because there's an understanding in the sutras that for, let's say, lay individuals, so people who are not really introduced to the meditation, the Buddha says, you know, your, your domain really is sensuality. And he doesn't condemn it, he just says, that's for lay people. And that's for people who want to have business, and people who want to enjoy the finer things in life. But within means, and what that means is within an ethical boundary, you know, in a way that doesn't harm yourself or others. But then what he says is, there are many kinds of feelings. So you have such sexual and sensual feelings. But eventually, once you start to experience the mental pleasant feelings of Samadhi it's like you have gotten a a more profound and deeper and richer experience of pleasure, that the the lower pleasures, just don't they they pale in comparison. So that's why I say it's a natural process, when you actually experience these pleasant feelings in the form of Samadhi. The sensual and the sexual pleasures pale in comparison. And then when you experience nibbana, even the states of jhanas become just a playground where you might just go and enjoy them, but then when you have nibbana, that is the ultimate of the bliss of nibbana or Nirvana appear, brings everything else to a lower level, including Samadhi
and Samadhi. Here, are you referring to Samadhi in the Buddhist conception or in the yoga sutra conception Are you don't see a distinction there? I asked because as you pointed out, it is the case that many advanced practitioner many it is the case that some advanced practitioners masters of Samadhi still do engage in sexuality and sometimes deleteriously, as you pointed out, so perhaps you've changed the the kind of Samadhi you're referring to, in that sense. Is
that the case? Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good, that's a good thing you brought up because there is a distinction. I will say, to a certain extent, if you're doing the Samadhi of the Yoga Sutras, there is something to be said about the fact that these, these sexual energies can be, let's say, sublimated, you know, into deeper and more refined states. But when I refer now to Samadhi, we're talking about the Buddhist context of Samadhi, where we're talking about now the four jhanas, and the four Ayat Denyse, or the Rupa jhanas. And so what we're looking at is what I noticed in my practice with when I did the Yoga Sutras, or the other sutra kind of framework of Samadhi practice. And when I look at the Samadhi practice, the way it's taught, according to the suit does with regards to the jhanas. There is an overlap in terms of the experiences. But the difference here is at least when we talk about the twin practice that Bhante Vemula Romsey has introduced, is that it's less concentrated and more collected. I think there has to be a distinction made between what we say when we say concentration, and what we say when we say collectiveness. And what we're really talking about here is when we talk about concentration, the idea is that the mind becomes super focused, you know, in the sutras, it's talked about as mind crushing mind. And that sounds very, very painful. And indeed it can become painful where, for example, Bunty from Romsey when he did his practice in Samadhi practice as it's understood, in the Mahasi, tradition and so on. It was super concentrated, and he experienced headaches and things like that. And so if you become super concentrated, what is happening is you are suppressing or repressing all of those desires, instead of understanding and acknowledging them and letting them go in the proper way. What I mean by that is, when you have collectiveness, what you're doing is you have an object of meditation, like loving kindness, or compassion, or even the breath, for example. But the mind kind of anchors itself around that object. It doesn't become the object, it doesn't focus, its focus itself on the object, it's just sort of circulating around the object. And in doing so, there's an open awareness. This open awareness is very similar to rigpa in xOP, chin and Mahamudra. So it's a it's a type of awareness where the mind is very open, very collected, and just seeing things as they really are when they arise and pass away. So in Pali, this is known as yatha buta Nana Dodson kept up with Anjana Dodson, which is the knowledge and vision of reality as it is, or as of things as they really are. And that's a deep level of equanimity. That happens when you collect your mind around this object, since the mind is open, and since the attention is open, there is space, not only for hindrances to arise, but also insights into how this mind works. When the hindrances arise, what happens is you use the process of right effort within Buddhism. And in the Twin practice, it's known as a six R's. And rarely, the six R's are nothing but a a wonderful way of doing right effort, which is, you acknowledge that a hindrance has arisen, some kind of a distraction has arisen, you release your awareness from that you've relax the mind and the body. The relax step is really key because what it's doing is, I talked about some scars earlier, and the poly version of some scars is some cars, which are translated in English to formations. And formations are like these proto thoughts. And they're like these seeds of karma that arise dependent upon choices you made previously. So when we talk about hindrances, what's happening is hindrances arise as a form of old karma because of something you did in a past life or something you did in a previous moment in this life.
And instead of fighting and suppressing the hindrance, which when you do by the way, if you do that, you have repressing it so that when you come out of the concentration practice, you feel wonderful and quite elated, but there's no personality shift. There's no shift in the minds ability to look at what is happening in the wholesome and unwholesome so because of that inability to shift and let go, the hindrances pop up again. And the analogy I use is basically you take a beach ball, and you you submerge it underwater. If you meet, let go of it, it just pops right back up. So there's no real actual change going on as such. So the transformative aspect of this practice is, you acknowledge that there's a distraction, you acknowledge that there's a hindrance. And when I mentioned hindrance, we're talking about really the five general hindrances. We're talking about sensual craving, we're talking about ill will or aversion. We're talking about restlessness and anxiety, we're talking about sloth and torpor or dullness of the mind. And we're talking about doubt in the practice or doubt in your capacity to be able to practice. So these might happen in different ways, when you recognize them, and you release them. And then you relax the mind and body. You're relaxing the karmic formations that give rise to that particular hindrance. When you do that, you come back to the smile. And smiling is an important part of this practice, because it's when the mind becomes uplifted quite naturally. And it's an anchor point to return to your object. And then continue that process of collectiveness and then repeat whenever you get distracted again. That's very
interesting. And that's, that's a summary there. The six R's, the twin method, I'd like to ask you questions about that a bit later, actually, you mentioned yoga SR as being an it quite an interesting one. I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about that. And also in that same time, you said some shaver Tantra you're introduced to I'm curious, yeah, what those practices were.
Yeah. So for example, in yoga Puszta. You know, it's a big book. It's it's a massive volume. And what we found out is, the yoga shisha is a smaller fat fragment of an even larger volume of text. So there's a lot more unexplored stuff in the yoga persister. And what I find about the yoga Vashishtha it's like a Socratic text. And what I mean by that is, it uses Kashmir Shaivism, it uses Vedanta, and it uses Buddhism as its platform, as well as Yoga itself. So so it takes all of these different roadmaps and tries to create this its own kind of syncretic tradition from there. And so the yoga Vashishtha has a lot of very fascinating stories, but a fascinating ideas about consciousness. And, and it talks about how consciousness is really, this awareness that is all pervading. You know, some people call it the Brahmins, some people call it you know, Ric PA, some people call it different names, but the yoga Vashishtha it's really a dialogue between this king or Prince Rama and his teacher Vashta. And Schuster was known as one of the rishis, one of the seven virtues in Hindu mythology, and in the Vedic tradition. So when we talk about the Gilgamesh ista, he goes through seven different levels of understanding. And it starts off very much similar to how you understand this particular world that you see around you with with its five physical senses, and the mind and so on. And it starts to get more and more refined, to where it talks about the stages of practice of somebody who starts to do the meditation practice. So he incorporates different parts of Vedanta, specifically talking about reading scripture, reflecting on it, then doing the meditation dependent upon that reflection, that's known as mana now, which is reflection. And as you do that, you start to get into a state of what you could say is, you know, disassociation. Maybe that might not be the right word, but it's very close, which is you start to disassociate with the world around you, because you start to see that it's the world that you see is a projection of your ideas and concepts. The reality that you experience is nothing more than the projection of all of the different ideas and concepts that you've already held before. And you start to let go of those. And you start to come to an experience of what's known as Korea and Korea data.
And this is really coming from the, the one of the Upanishads, it's the Manduka Upanishad, or the Manduka. I always get confused by the maduka Manduca, but it's one of those two, and in that particular Upanishad. It talks about the secret of ohm. And what they're talking about is ohm is made up of four components actually, four separate sounds, there's Ah, there's Ooh, there's Ma, and then there's silence. And so the R is related to the waking state of mind. The EU is related to the dreaming state of mind, the mind is dreamless and the silence is beyond that. And so beyond that is threa. that three year comes from the word Chuck Turia, the fourth state that state is very similar to Sahaja Samadhi, where your mind is so mindful that it's actually still alert, not only the waking state, but also in the dreamless dreaming state as well as the dreamless. State. And the understanding is that this particular mindfulness, or awareness, is really your true nature. And so the yoke of his sister goes through that process of explaining it through very interesting stories. There's one interesting story about this, this sage who was in one lifetime, a crow, where he was able to transform into a crow. And then he lived through different aeons. And there's a story of where he meets what's known as a space yogi. And it's translated as a space yogi. And he has this contraption, where he lives in this sort of like a UFO kind of thing. And he's orbiting the Earth, and he's looking at the Earth, and He watches it all throughout, you know, the different aeons. And then when it's time to come back down, he comes back down and time has passed. So there's a lot of very trippy, if you will, concepts in the OB Sr, that talk about space and time, that talk about, you know, time dilation, not only in terms of the physics of it, but also the idea that, you know, when you go travel vast distances from one planet to the other, there is a difference in the way you experience time, and how people on Earth would experience time. So that's all talked about, they talk about things like, you know, just as we have the experience of this world, as we are living on it in this on this planet, there's an experience of bacteria and protozoa that are living off of us. And then he talks about it on a super macro level where he talks about how there are beings living on different galaxies. So it's a very cosmic trip. And I would recommend it, but it's, it's a long read, it's a huge, huge read, it took me a good two years to go through it, you know. So that's the yoga system. And then within, within, let's say, tantra, when we talk about tantra, we have to understand, you know, there's this idea that Tantra has to do with sexuality. And there are, there is some aspects of that when it comes to sexuality. But Tantra is really, all it really means is technique. We have three different words, we have mantra, we have Tantra, and we have Yantra mantra is the the the the concentration of the mind, using a specific syllable, let's say a specific sound. Tantra is the technique through which you do that process. And Yantra is these different mechanisms that you can use, like for example, you can use with Raksha beads, you could use mercury, and I've gone through this process of seeing how mercury is solidified using certain kinds of herbs. So that it's it's used as a carrier for energies. And so there's different kinds of amulets and different kinds of crystals and different kinds of metals that you can use, which is that process of Yantra. So I've seen what are known as the Siddha yogis, actually, you take solidified mercury in their hand, and take certain kinds of herbs that are found only in South India and parts of the Himalayas. And they mix that up. And what it does is it kind of purifies the Merc, Cree. And it creates this little kind of gelatinous ball, if you will, and then they do other kinds of processes, they chant mantras into it, and then it becomes this very dense metal ball. And the understanding is that within that tradition, you can actually elevate that mercury to create consciousness in it conscious energies. And you can make it into your guru, if you will. So I've seen different kinds of mercury balls, or solidified Mercury do different kinds of things. So you can use them to awaken psychic faculties you can use them to elevate your mental level and elevate the Kundalini and things like that. Now, in contrast, specifically, I was introduced to a text, which is known as the Vidya, the Qian buyer of a Tantra. And that goes through something like 112 Different kinds of meditation techniques. So when we talk about tantra, what it really is, is using technique to get to these different levels. And the different levels include things like just the body level, the mental level, the consciousness level, and because we're talking about Shaivism, here, their understanding is the ultimate is to unify Shakti and Shiva. And when we talk about shot B, what we're talking about is the creative force of mind, which is also understood as Kundalini and that Shiva is here. And so what you're doing is you're reading reaching into the Kundalini and bringing it up. So that Shakti and Shiva unified, and you get to a state of Shiva consciousness, if you will you get to a state. But what I will say is whether you call it Krishna consciousness, whether you call it Shiva consciousness, whether you call it Brahman, or whatever it might be, these are all the same kinds of
conscious, conscious experiences that you have. And so and so the Shiva by pair of Tantra, or the maganda, of Tantra, I should say, is a dialogue between Shiva and Shakti and Shakti or Parvati, as she's also known, she's talking with Shiva, and she's asking him, you know, what is the ultimate secret of reality. And he says, you know, if you really want to understand the true nature of reality, you have to go through a process of Tantra. And so it's again, part of tantra really means the science and technique of Parallel. Parallel is another word for Shiva, which means the terrible one or the one who is awesome, or however you want to put it. And so these techniques are very interesting, because they talk about using the breath, in some ways, they talk about, you know, if you're in a vehicle, start to notice the motion of the vehicle in relation to your own body, and you start to get into this kind of rhythm. And that rhythm allows your mind to become very hypnotic and concentrated, and then gets into that state of consciousness. There's another technique where you lay down on the grass, and you're watching the sky, the blue sky, and you start to lose complete awareness. And your consciousness becomes like the sky. So they're very, very cool and very interesting techniques, I would definitely recommend, if people want to try it out, they should do it. But obviously, they should do it under the guidance of somebody who has a certain level of mastery with these texts.
And what was the lineage of of that you were introduced to that text?
Yeah, so I was actually introduced to it by, believe it or not, by OSHA, by the lineage of Osho. I, I have a lot of good friends who used to be students of Osho, or as Rajneesh, as he's known. And so he introduced a lot of his own practices like the mystic rose practice and different kinds of meditation techniques. But he did a great discourse on or series of discourses on this particular text. And so the lineage that I learned it from was really through that lineage of Rajneesh
and that, that his those discourses I think were collected if I'm not mistaken into the book of secrets is that, too? That's right, his particular take on on that text. thing. Okay. You mentioned you also explored sock Chang Mahamudra. Of course, Sachin Amar Mudra, often emphasized the importance of a guru realized guru and transmission and so on. So I'm curious what exploration you did with Todd Chen and Maha Mudra. And if you work with any gurus of those traditions,
yeah, in particular, I worked with Lama Lena, I don't know if you're familiar with her. But she's mostly doing Maha Mudra. Now, but she's a very interesting character, because she has she's very, very spirited, very fiery. And I had a chance to really go through the preliminary pointing out instructions. But before that, there's a whole process that you go through, which are different kinds of purify purification processes, if you will. So I learned a lot of that before really getting into the pointing out instructions. And the pointing on instruction should be done with, as you said, a guru because they will be able to really understand your mindset. And the way to contextualize how to point out certain things about absorption and how to recognize rigpa. The true nature of let's say, your consciousness, so I studied with her for about three years before really going through that process. And what I found is this experience of rigpa. Also, it's very similar to Sahaja Samadhi, or dharma mega Samadhi, where you come to a point where you realize that awareness is just just always there. It's always there. It's its pristine awareness that you can just rest in, if you will, and you don't need to make heads or tails about it, you know, you just allow the mind to rest with in mind, if you will. Now, in terms of the context of the twin practice, we have that experience as well, but we have it at a certain level where we go into the different jhanas. And the very last part we have this thing called the Signless state the Signless Samadhi and that is really similar to rigpa. So that's my lineage with regards to for selection in the Humberto.
That's fascinating. And you touched actually on that comparison between Rick Burr and some of the states of swim and first glance, they do seem rather similar. So I'm curious now, in your story, we're coming to your encounter with David Johnson, and then also bunted in the Rams, of course, having attained Ric power realized rigpa you're nodding there, why, then, would you still looking? We could say, What was it about? What was it about the swim practice, you know, now, now we're going right back to the suitors again, you've been attaining RankBrain, the great perfection, and so on. And now you're going to go right back to the suitors again. So can you explain why that what happened there? What was your process?
So the thing is, like I said, rigpa is very, very much similar in terms of that open awareness. And by that time, I would say this was probably the time I was 2025, or 26. And at that time, I became sort of like a scientist. So I was very much interested in kind of exploring different kinds of territories of spirituality. The interesting thing was with my mind, it was never attached to a particular school of thought it was never attached to a particular philosophy. At that point in time, my intention was to explore all facets of spiritual practice. And what I did was basically studied on my own, going back into the Yoga Sutras at the age of 25. Comparing it with rigpa, comparing it with other kinds of traditions, and my my whole goal there was to be able to accumulate as much in terms of the way of different techniques so that I could understand if somebody came to me and said, Well, this is the tradition I come from, or this is where I've been so far, I can immediately recognize and use, let's say, the language or the different context to be able to kind of nudge them along the path and tell them well, okay, have you considered it this way? Have you considered it that way? So it wasn't that I was necessarily looking for anything, but at the same time, I wanted to see what else was out there. What else is, you know, out there in the field of spirituality. And interestingly enough, Metta practice was not something I did, necessarily. So I did get introduced to metta practice from Sharon Salzberg, but I was looking for other techniques and things like that. And then I sub on David muram, sees video. And I tried it for myself, and what I immediately recognizes, when I started getting to the first and second and third jhana. Wow, this is exactly like, well, not exactly. But in terms of the qualitative experience, it's it's almost like the Samadhi experiences in the yoga sutras. And then he talks about opening the mind and keeping it away, or keeping it open in terms of its awareness. Okay, that's a lot like rigpa. That's a lot like silk chin, you're not, you know, it's interesting, because zoek chin, you start off with practices that keep your mind quite collected, keep your mind quite concentrated. But then it opens you up to rigpa, which is a completely different experience altogether. So I think that part of the mind started to compare, like, how is this very similar to different practices? And how is it different. And the main difference I see about this practice is, there's not a lot of emphasis on concentration, there's more emphasis on understanding mindfulness. And if you don't, if you remember, I think Bhante might have talked about this, which is his understanding, or his definition of mindfulness is remembering to observe how minds attention moves. That's an interesting definition. Because all you're saying is, you're getting into that metacognitive awareness, if you will, which is mind watching how it just moves. So that's a lot a very similar to rigpa. In that sense, you just allowing thoughts to self arise and pass away without any interference without any interaction, you're just allowing things to submerge back into the true nature of rigpa. Now, you know, when I got introduced to the method practice, I did a little bit of it on my own, but I decided to get some guidance under David, David Johnson with the online retreat. So I did it. I read the book on on the practice, and I started doing it. And, you know, it was interesting, because I gave a report to Dave and and I said, you know, he asked, you know, there's a questionnaire and it says, you know, how long was it before you lost? Your your awareness of the object of meditation, and how long was it before you got distracted and things like that? Along were you on your object in meditation, and I said, Well, I was on my object memory. For about 20 minutes before the mind got distracted in this process, and he didn't believe me, he said, Okay, well, I think you might be misunderstanding what the questionnaire is asking us to know. But that's, that's my experience. He said, Well, let's see what happens in a couple more days.
So I did the same thing. And I said, Well, this is what I experienced. And you know, I went to the for China. And I experienced this. And he, and he kind of checked marked in his own mind all of the different things that they're looking for when it talks about for China. And he said, Yeah, okay, fine, you're in for China. Now you do this practice. So I did an intermediary practice, which is known as breaking down the barriers, which is basically it's actually, interestingly enough, rooted in the Vasudha mogga. This particular practice, which is just an intermediate practice, which is you go through different categories of people, and you send them loving kindness. And then from there on, you start radiating love and kindness and compassion and the other Brahma viharas. And it's a natural progression. Then I had another experience of the Rupa jhanas. And then I had the different attainment experiences. And I think, in the online retreat, he was quite surprised to see that that was that was the case. And I'm, I wouldn't be surprised if he had the advantage. He had some level of disbelief in, you know, the reports that I was I was giving them. But some of the reports that I gave them are actually in his book, so you might be able to read them in the patty nibbana. But he, he then had me say, Okay, fine, you got you went through this practice, and wonderful. And then, you know, a couple of months later, I said, Is there anything left? Like, is there anything more I should be doing with this practice? He said, Well, if you want you constructing determinations, which is, you can like start to go into any jhana for a determined amount of time. And then you can go through successive jhanas, or you can skip jhanas, and do all kinds of things like that, and then ultimately go into new Rhoda. And it determine how long you want to get into new Rhoda. And I have the email exchanges. And it's quite funny because he says, well, we can't stump you there either. It seems like you were able to, you know, do exactly that. And he said, Hey, would you like to try doing past life work? You know, would you like trying to do past lives and looking at different realms and the threefold knowledge? I said, Yeah, I could try doing that. So we did that, and a little tidbit there. So I think Bhante had spoken about it in one of his retreats. But he said, You know, so we had this person, and he was referring to oneself. And he said, you know, we couldn't stump him, we try giving him all kinds of different kinds of determinations. And finally, we said, Okay, what's the longest you can sit for? Let's see. And at that point in time, I sat in cessation for 42 hours, started 52 hours, 52 hours. And he said, Oh, only 52 hours, can you sit for longer? You know, so I started sitting for even longer periods of time and cessation. And then afterwards, then he had me go into past lives. And the past life stuff was very interesting things. You know, you look at how karma works. And you get a deeper understanding of what's known as dependent origination. Now, it could just be because of the way I was practicing, it could just be the because of my own interpretation, or the way I was understanding Tibetan Buddhism and things like that. But I think the key difference of going back to the soup does, the missing element here was the understanding of dependent origination. Because dependent origination really gives you clarity on how mind builds the world around you, it gives sort of like, the zeros and ones of the matrix, and you start to get an understanding of it. So when you get in an attainment, what happens is in the process of nibbana, you go through cessation, and you come out of it, and then you start to see certain things and these certain things are the building blocks of your perception of reality. And these building blocks are the different links of dependent origination. That was, I would say, a key thing that I was missing from my previous practices. And it really helped to understand okay, this is how craving with would arise. This is how feeling arises, this is how stimulation of the senses arises and so on. And it had a different understanding of consciousness. So the repair experience itself, I realize, using this whole process of the jhanas in between practice is very much the Signless state.
When we talk about the Signless state, it's a state where there is no sense of conceit. There's no more sense of I am there. And it is an object plus meditation, if you will, it's almost like there's just pure awareness but It's still a conditional state, to use the words of the Buddha in the sutras, it's volitionally produced, and whatever is volitionally produced is of the nature of being impermanent, and therefore not being self and therefore should be like go off. So, when you let go of that very subtle formation of I am, you get to what is basically the cessation of perception, feeling and consciousness, that is that Nero the state, when you come out of it, you then see the links of dependent origination and you experience Nibbana you experience Nirvana, as you say. So, when I, when I went through this process of the twin practice, that was the missing element I saw, the key element I saw was the understanding of dependent origination, and everything kind of just locked into place. And now, when you see the world, you you no longer take it personal, you no longer take it as being self. It's just a series of impersonal causes and conditions. And you even see that even seeing into past lives. That experience as well is just a process of, of impersonal causes and conditions through the links of dependent origination, and how you react to that causes you further rebirth not only on the macro level from one lifetime to another, but from one moment to another. So for the autoharp, for example, dependent origination still continues. But there's no more ignorance the airhead no longer has any conceit no longer has any ignorance no longer has any craving. So when we talk about depend origination, it's cut off at the level of feeling. So any old karma, if you will, the effects of previous choices that were made before full awakening, are still to be experienced. And this is the understanding whether it's in the Vedanta tradition, whether it's in the yogic tradition, or whether it's in the Buddhist tradition, it's all the same thing in that sense that the karma is to be still experienced. But the difference here is because there's no more ignorance and craving, there's not latching on to it, no further fuel, cause further new karma for further rebirth.
Yeah, fascinating. Well, you said a lot of remarkable things there. One aspect of the interview as you as you're referring to there with Banta, Venla ramsI, few episode to go. And he talked about the four path model, this idea of four levels of attainment starting at St. Mentor and going, as you said, all the way up to our heart. And you also referred there in that answer to path attainments. And it seems like you had them in fairly rapid succession. I'm curious, can you remember each of those path attainments? And would it be possible to recount those moments?
Yes, yes. So the very first time, I had no idea what I was doing, like I kind of stumbled into the first attainment, if you will, and and what that means is, I was going through the level of nothingness, which is the seventh jhana. It's it's a level of nothingness. And there's deep equanimity. And the mind was just observing mind at that point in time. And then suddenly, it all just switched off. I was not even aware that it switched off until it came back on. So it's like the mind went for like a nap or just blacked out or whatever it happened. And I and the first thing I remember the mind going was like, what just happened. And in that process of looking at it, what I saw was these little tiny flickers, these tiny little lights or figures, or circular things, and what what those were, for the first some scars, the first formations that were arising, and creating the process of the rest of the links of dependent origination to arise. And I noticed immediately that I felt this amazing joy, and this amazing relief that that was there. And the way David explained it to me was, well, okay, you experience all of that. And he said, Okay. And he said, I think he went for a little swim, which is his way of saying that, you know, you had stream entry, you entered the stream, if you will. And I didn't make anything of it. But what I did remember was when I came out of it, the world was hyper real. Like the colors were sharper, sounds were louder. who tasted better, smells were sharper. The senses were just, you know, hyper aware. It was like I was living in some kind of 4d or five dimensional reality, just floating around. And for the first couple of days, I was just like that. And he said, Okay, congratulations, go back and sit and continue on. I had the same similar experience, but this time, the links were much sharper, much, much sharper. And I started getting fascinated by what is it that I'm seeing, so I asked him what is going on? Exactly. And he explained to me, you're starting to see the links of dependent origination and because of that, Mind, lets go and experiences through that release nibbana. So then I had the fruition experience. And then I said, Okay, that's that's great and stuff. The thing about this is I had no kind of prior knowledge about these things. And I think that was kind of beneficial for me because I didn't have expectations of what, what what to see for what to look for, or, you know, the idea of the four path model and things like that I just didn't have any clarity on that. I was more interested in doing the practice. And definitely surprised by that blackout state of the mind, if you will, where the mind completely goes blank. So I did it again. And I said, Okay, well, I had another experience. And I had two of those experiences in one day. And I think that was when David and Bhante, were probably starting to get into disbelief, because they said, How is it possible that somebody could do this? And my only explanation is because I had that beginner's mind that mind have no expectation. And I would, I would venture to say, and from my own experience in teaching people now and people who talk about it is I would venture to say that it's much easier to stumble into stream entry than it is to get into the higher states. Because at that point, when you're stumbling into it, you're not you don't know what to look out for. But now that you know, the roadmap, now you know, where the signposts are, you're anticipating, you know, what's going to happen. And the problem is that anticipation is counterintuitive for you entering into cessation, and then experiencing Kibana. So it's it's easier doing it the first time than it is the second, third, fourth, or, you know,
other times after that. But then anyway, I went through this process a few more times. And every time I went through it, what I realized was, my understanding of dependent origination became even much more clear, much clearer, to the point that they came a point where it's very similar to that yoga sutra experience I was talking about where space time freezes, and you're able to see different moments in time, there came a point at that particular payment was, you could see dependent origination, but then it froze, and you could like literally go back a step, and see how ceasing this everything else ceases. So you're seeing the arising and passing away of dependent origination, and then the reverse order of that, and then the forward and reverse order of that as well. So it was quite a quite a trippy thing, if you will, to see that. But then, when you come back out of it, what you notice is, there is so much immense relief. And that relief is from having broken the feathers, you break the feathers, and you no longer experience the same reality as other people experience it the way they do you see through reality, and the way I explain it is it's like you have been unplugged from the Matrix. But you come back into the matrix, and you can live in the matrix. But you know that this is the matrix like you don't have any attachment. And you're in other words, you are living in the world, but are not of the world, so to speak. So what happens is you start to see dependent origination in people, and you can start to see karmic streams. Now I'm just talking from experience in the way I've seen it, maybe people might see different ways, because students have talked about how they've seen it in a way where it's like this quantum computer where they see all of these different streams of reality coming together, you know, and they see frames of reality and things like that. So when you get into these attainments, what's really happening is, you're getting a refined understanding of how mind really works, and how this reality is fully, completely, undoubtedly impersonal. And therefore you no longer take it seriously anymore. You, you have the bliss of that attainment, you have the bliss of fruition, that bliss of nibbana. And that, you know, is the ultimate, that's the ultimate reality. So you start to see how karma works and, you know, good, bad or indifferent, it doesn't affect the mind in a way, whether it's positive, negative, or neutral. It just sees it as a continual unfolding of reality, until, you know, the dissolution of the five aggregates. Hmm. When you
said there that you had the experience twice, twice in the same day. And I take that to mean that you attain to the second and third paths within the same day.
Well, the second path, the path and the fruition of the second blessing. Yes. Yeah. And then later on subsequently, the rest of the paths and frictions. So that's basically what we're talking at that point is, I mean, I kind of summarize it, but what I'm talking about there is you Your level of understanding of dependent origination and the clarity becomes even greater. And what happens is you start to realize, especially at the final attainment, which is really what we're talking about, which happened much later on is, you realize that even the relief, even the joy, even this process of nibbana, that is experienced is impersonal as well. So, you get a deep experience of anata a deep experience of not self, in that what was happening prior to that is when you feel joy after experiencing it, people then have a tendency to cling to that joy, they have a tendency to add a sense of I am to have a tendency of saying that this is my joy. But what happens is there is in the pseudo is known as the contact with nibbana, or the contact with the Nibbana element. And this contact is known as the the emptiness contact, the Signless contact and the undirected contact. The reason is because it's making contact with nibbana, which is empty yourself, which has no science, it's not an object. And it's undirected because there's no intention to get to it. It just happens when it happens when causes and conditions are right for that experience to happen. It will happen and the unconditioned occurs, so to speak. So when that happens, everybody makes eye contact when they go through the path and fruition the different kinds of path attainments. But the difference at the final attainment is there's no longer that joy of taking it personal. You see it as being an impersonal contact, you see that contact for what it actually is. And because of that, the five fetters the five higher fetters of conceit and restlessness. Well, I'll say that restlessness, the the craving for form, existence, the craving for formless existence, are all dependent upon conceit dependent upon that sense of I Am, and then ignorance is destroyed, where then that conceit and that ignorance being destroyed there is then the understanding of this spring, a completely impersonal process. So what I'm saying here is, when you have contact with a Nibbana element, that feeling of relief, that feeling of joy, that's not the that's not the unconditioned itself. It's the experience have, it's the experience after the uncondition the joy and that the relief that you feel happens within the context of dependent origination. Now, what happens is in the prior attainments, people or beings will take that and cling to it, which means not, not all of the fetters are completely destroyed. But if you see that as also being impersonal, and also being impermanent, then the further links of craving and clinging and being are no longer there. And because there's no longer fuel for that, they completely fade away. So that's why I say what the hot there's only the formations or the sun cars up into the level of feeling in the context of dependent origination. And ignorance is destroyed, because one has already seen the impersonal process, and totally understood the four noble truths in such a way that you contextualize everything that you're seeing through that lens of the Four Noble Truths.
Fascinating. You mentioned past lives. And David, in his email introducing, you mentioned also that you had the experience of seeing your past lives. And I'm curious if you could say how that happened. You mentioned it actually, also in your previous yogic training, that there were methods for that as well. So I'm wondering if it was in both places, that you did that in both systems that you did that or just one? And what did you see? He mentioned lifetimes as Himalayan Yogi's and also in other realms, and so on? So I'm curious what you saw. And I'm also curious if you can, as the suitors report, the Buddha to be able to do for example, see other's past lives. Right?
Right. So yes, in both traditions, the reading of past lives happens, but I only was able to do it with this particular tradition. I believe I'm only I'm only speculating here. But I would say that if anybody wants to do it from the yogic tradition, they can go right ahead and try it out as it's talked about in the Yoga Sutras because there is a lot of similarity in terms of what that technique or process is. And what that process is, is basically you are going back in your memory, bit by bit, and it's it's basically what you're doing is you're accessing the some scars, you're accessing the different memory points. And it's like these memory points are like a game that you played and you saved. So these are points of in the game where you've saved that particular point in the game, and then you start to rewind. So the way it's kind of seen as everything starts to go very fast in terms of the rewind And you can kind of pause and then explore one particular lifetime, and start to see how karma was arising in that particular lifetime. So this is done usually after a certain period of time when somebody has certain level of mastery. I mean, I kind of as a teacher, I would recommend that people have at least one or two attainments, if not three. And that's just my personal preference, let's say, so to speak. Because that's when people are really mastering the jhanas. That's when people are really mastering the ability to experience the fourth jhana. And then, of course, even doing the determinations, as we were talking about earlier, because you need the fourth jhana, you need the equanimity of the fourth jhana to be able to go through past lives, because there's a lot of things you might see that you might not like, you know, so people have done that. And they kind of feel like that was them in that past life. And then you have to kind of walk them through it from the context of dependent origination and tell them, you know, well, was that really yourself? Or is this the self now or you know, what's really going on, and they start reflecting and realize, Okay, that wasn't really me. And this isn't really me here, either, you know, so it was all a series of processes of a karma that was coming to play. So my experience had been where I had seen different lives, as, as you said, a Himalayan yogi. And there's a particular story in which I mean, I talked today, I talked to David about it. So he probably told you about this, or at least briefly gave an explanation. I recollect my immediate past life as a Himalayan yogi. And I recall, interestingly enough, seeing my parents in that lifetime, my current parents as they are in this life, I recall seeing them and I remember being invited to their wedding reception as a Himalayan Yoga, you know, just giving arms and things like that. And I bless them. And I said, you know, you're going to have a son, things like that. And what I made a determination was, I would go on to become their, their child. So the story is that I, in that life, basically left the body and then took birth in this particular life, as their child. And I actually talked to my parents about this a little bit, and I said, was there a Was there anybody who was interesting that visited, you know, their wedding and things like that? It's like, yeah, why? Well, was he was he like a, like Assad? Who was a like a yogi or something, there's like, and they said, Yeah, there was somebody like that. And there was somebody who came in and they said, you know, they blessed us. And they said, you know, you're going to be blessed with a son. And he walked away, and he laughed, and he was never seen after that. Nobody knew what happened with him after that. So that was an interesting experience, to see, you know, to see your parents in a previous life as somebody else. It's a little, it's a little trippy, if you will, you know, I mean, I keep using the word trippy, because it is really a big massive trip, when you go through these past lives.
Then you start to see the arising and passing away of different beings according to their karma. So you can actually start to see what are the different karmic formations that led them into, let's say, the earth plane or the human existence into a higher existence, whether it was a a deva plane, or a Brahma loka, or an Aruba plane, or whatever it might be, or even lower existences. So you can start to play around with that you can look at, you can look at the different realms as being as being like spectrums, or spectrums of light, if you will. So we only see or experience right now in this earth plane or on the human level. All of this, like whatever we're seeing right now is just a portion of what might be out there. And a lot of stuff that I've experienced can be kind of rooted in mythology because what you start to see is some of the Devas and some of the the different mystical entities that you see in Norse mythology, or Vedic mythology, or Greek mythology. And what you realize is, other people also experienced them, and they were interpreting it within their cultural context. So these entities, for sure are there. And at the same time, I would say, you know, nobody has to believe this stuff. By no means do you need to believe my account or anybody's account. All you have to do is see for yourself, if you're very interesting. And there's the process of doing that, and you get to it and you see it for yourself. That's why I say you know, whether it's this practice or any other practice in Buddhism, it doesn't say that you have to believe certain things. It's a very empirical system where you do it for yourself. You see it for yourself?
You mentioned neuroticism, a party. And this ability to enter into a state of more or less suspended animation, or breathing, no heart, beat, etc. And you said you were able to do that for 52 hours on your first attempt. I'm curious what your record is. And I understand also that you've been studied doing this. Is that correct? Yeah. What is your record for a notice of a party? And and can you say a little bit about the scientific studies that are being done on you?
Sure. So I have to point out, I think I started off, basically, just a couple of hours and 52 hours was my old record. But then I was able to do it for up to six days at a time. So being in nirodha, for about six days at a time. And this was, when I had a chance to go back to the Himalayas and spend some time, there's actually a story about that, which is, I went back to the old cave that I used to go to when I was 16. And an old friend of mine, he stayed nearby, maybe, you know, a few kilometers away at his house. And I said, you know, I'd like to come and spend some time there. And if it's okay, you know, once a week, I'll come stay at your house for food and then go back into my meditative practices. He said, That's fine, that's okay. But here's the thing that happens. So I went into neuro down and was sitting there, I made a determination to go into it for about six days. And he was then informed, and I was not aware of this, obviously. But he was informed that the pandemic hit and so everything was going to be on lockdown. And so if you were found outside of lockdown, you would be in trouble. And so he was very much concerned. So he came to the cave with a couple of his friends. And he tried to wake me up, and he couldn't wake me up. So they had to actually, as he encountered as he describes it, he took the body or he thought I was dead. Basically, he took the corpse and laid it on the bed. And he sent a message to a David Johnson. And he said, you know, this is what happened, what do we do? And David said, Just keep him warm, you'll be fine. Just wait, you know. And then a couple of days later, I find myself I wake up, and I'm in this bedroom. And I thought, Okay, I've done it. Now I've, you know, I've gotten past a seven day mark somehow. And now I'm, I'm in some other realm or something. But then I saw my friend and I realized what happened when he told me that the lockdown was going on. So you have to stay indoors. Now you can't go into the cave and keep walking out. So I basically continued my practice with that, while I was staying at his house in my own in my own room. And, and what I did was go into Nevada for about six days, while six days and then the last day, I will just have my meal, and talk with people and do some teaching, and then go back and continue on for another six days. And this went on for quite some time. And what happened is, there's a muse device, the device called Muse, which is like a read your brain wave or whatever it might be second, it's a consumer level, EEG technology.
And it's kind of rudimentary in the sense that, you know, it kind of is able to see what's going on with the brains and the brainwaves and things like that. But we did this, and I did this for myself. And what we detected was there was some kind of a flatline with the brain brainwaves, and also that the heartbeat had basically reduced. Now it's interesting, because when then they did the study. The way they did the study was they they found out about the study through that news report. And somebody who went and went to a party in the Netherlands, they said, you know, there's this, there's this interesting case. And this guy said, Well, I know a neuroscientist who might be interested in studying this. So they said, Well, let's try it out. They approached me and they said, we'd like to do it. And I said, Okay, fine. And they did two different studies. Over the course of two days. The first study was what they called predictive modeling. And what they wanted to see was, what happens in the state of nirodha, when it comes to the level of perception and and feeling. In other words, is the brain still active in recognizing certain sounds and things like that. So they were they made me go through a process of the waking state, focused attention, just listening to things and then going into nirodha. And they did about I think, four or five cycles of that. The second day was a sleep study. So they had me just be in the waking state for some time. Then they had me going through the the sleep state for 90 minute basically the 990 minutes sleep cycle, and then a 90 minute session of nirodha Simon potty. And right now, there's still some initial findings coming out from that research. I mean, it's going to take some time because they did a lot of data Gathering, they had 64 electrodes on my head, I call that thing the octopus, because it looks like a big octopus. And they had me hooked up to some kind of respiratory belt to read how the respiration, respiration rate was going on blood oxygen levels, temperature levels, skin conductivity, conductivity, I think it was close to about 80, or 90 sensors all throughout my body, and even my feet, my chest and my back, and so on. Anyway, we had a chance to speak with scientists. And there were basically two or three things so far that they discovered from that, from that research, that was very interesting to them. The first thing was, I told them that my intention would be that at the 10 minute mark, the mind's going to go into nirodha. And at the 90 minute mark, it's going to come out. So what they found was exactly at the 10 minute mark, everything stopped, started dropping in terms of the respiratory, respiratory rate, the heart rate, the blood pressure, all of those things. And then exactly at the 90 minute mark, everything came back up again. And they were kind of spooked by that. Because what is that process of intention and determination that allows the mind to do that? Because as we understand it, time is subjective. So how is it it's somehow the the body clock, you know, the bodily formations are so attuned that they're able to know or be able to say, okay, at the 10 minute mark, you're going back down, and then you're going back up at the 90 minute mark. The second interesting finding was that there was absolutely zero movement, because in meditation as well, they might be able to detect certain levels of eye movement and things like that. But here was basically absolute zero, not even the eyes were moving or anything. The third finding was interesting in relation to the brainwaves. Now, they were concerned because what they said was, well, we saw the flatline on the Muse device. And we were concerned that if we see a flatline, in the brainwave scanner, you might die, or we might have killed you. And that would be a problem. So we're hoping that that's not what's going to happen, but what they actually did find, because because of the brainwave scanner being so, so much, you know, more intricate in terms of its findings, in terms of its well, and they were using machine learning to be able to say it was a very fascinating piece of research, because this research is part of a larger project, with relation to meditation and memory and perception. And they using artificial intelligence and machine learning, to come up with the way that they scan the brain, and also what they find in relation to that. So the third finding that that came about from our discussion, initial discussion was this.
They found that in the waking state, there was more delta brainwaves which are associated with deep sleep. But what they found was in the sleep state, there was zero delta waves, there was more an alertness. And they actually asked me after that, they said, Were you asleep? While I mean when you actually asleep, because what we found was, we were not able to find those spindle waves that indicate that the brain is now into REM sleep or into this particular sleep. But rather, what we found was that there was a level of mindfulness or a level of alertness in the way of alpha and beta waves. And I said, Yeah, that's the way I sleep, I my sleep pattern is, I'm able to observe the different levels of sleep, I can know when the mind is in waking state, in light sleep, in REM, and even in deep sleep. So that's really going back to what we were talking earlier about the curious stage where you can actually see the different levels of the waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep states. And then what they found was in the Rhoda, there was basically a very, very wide amplitude wave, which was even deeper than delta wave. So it was closer to almost non existent it was quite, quite interesting to see that. And what they saw was, it was much deeper than a level of sleep that you would find with a normal individual, let's say. So if you were to scan the brainwaves of somebody who was asleep, you would find in some level of Delta activity during the dream phase, started doing the deep sleep phase. But here what they found was there was even more active delta. And so they thought, well, maybe he's just taking a nap while he's in nero this summer potty, but then they made connections with the respiratory rate and the heart rate and so on. And what they realized was, no, no, no, the body was still active. The body was still You know, still doing its processes. But the brain was at such a deep level that it was even deeper than deep sleep.
And did they detect the cessation of respiration in heartbeat?
That was an interesting thing, I think to know it was they did not. What they noticed was actually, that the heart rate was either fairly normal level compared to a waking state. Same with the respiratory, respiratory rate. And the way that we interpret that in the sutras is, in one particular suta, there is a suitor where somebody asked the question, well, what's the difference between somebody who's dead, and somebody who is in the rather summer party, and what they say is, there's still heat and vitality in one who still is alive and in the row down. And their vital formations are still active. And so the way I understand that, or the way I'm interpreting to say that is that the metabolism that's the heat and vitality is still continuing. And the vital formations which have to do with the autonomic autonomic nervous system in relation to the heart rate and other components are still functioning, but albeit maybe at a lower level, but they're still functioning.
So when similar NZ makes the claim that an anagram II can sit for up to seven days without respiration and heart rate. You You don't you don't take that to be the case. Or, for instance, when your friends thought you were dead in the cave, presumably because they couldn't detect a pulse. And it didn't appear a breathing, I presume. But now, how do you square the claims made by Bantay, Vimla ramsI, with the scientific data of your own state of Nevada?
Yeah, I think, you know, with regards to Bhante, I can't speak for him, but I think he was probably talking about it based on based on initial findings with the muse, because that is what the Muse detected was it detected a basically a flatline and it detected a heart rate of about, I think it was like a beat, or a minute or something like that. It was quite, quite low. But I think, you know, I would say that science has shown that there is something else altogether that's going on. I also want to give the caveat that that's just me, that's just me as one subject. So they want to continue to do further research by replicating that, and possibly finding more people to be able to get a better data points, and then really conclude if they can, what's really going on. So I would say no, in the case of Bhante, saying, he probably said that based on the Muse findings, but now that we have newer findings, we're seeing, let's say, better data points, because of the fact that we have sharper tools at our disposal. And they're seeing, possibly that the Muse is showing a flatline, but possibly that with this new data, that the slow amplitude waves are indicative of something that's happening much, much deeper. So I would say, you know, it's just new information that's come out in the last few weeks. That that might just update what Dante is saying.
The flatlines amuse was the brain activity, not your heartbeat and respiration. Is that correct? That was the Yeah, that was the the brain activity. So the flatline is the Muse isn't route isn't related to your respiration and heartbeat?
No, no, the Muse Well, the Muse also detects heart rate, then the new Muse that we have, it detects heart rate as well. So it detected something like one or two beats per minute. Okay,
so, of course, banter actually also use the example of deeper man. Again, movie times could also do this go into the state of suspended animation for days at a time. And he asked her about that himself personally. And it is true in widely said in many of the systems that you've discussed, the cessation of heartbeat and the stopping of respiration for multiple days, that is a classic, classically understood component of those states. So would you fair to say that perhaps when Bantay said that he wasn't just basing it on your muse data, which the original one didn't actually even pick up your heart rate and respiration? But probably he was thinking about the traditional accounts and claims of Yogi's such as Deepa Ma.
It is quite possible it is quite possible because the classical understanding is based on whatever people's experiences just based on maybe, you know, the heart rate or the pulse is so faint, that it's basically undetectable or, you know, it's it's imperceptible, same with the breathing. And so maybe that's how people start interpreting it. But I like I said, going back to the SUTA itself, the way I see it, it kind of reconnected. analyzes for me based on these new findings that Inc Okay, from a, let's say, classical standpoint or from just looking at the person trying to detect a heart rate and things like that maybe it's difficult to detect the heart rate or it's it's imperceptible but with the scientific findings with the the neuroscientific findings. It recontextualizes it by saying that, indeed there are these vital formations still function in one who is in cessation, the only difference being that there is no awareness there. There is there's a lack of consciousness present in their lack of feeling and perception in there.
The scientific findings seem to suggest your heart rate and respiration rate normal levels, rent. So presumably normal levels of heartbeat and respiration are easy to detect even young people event in the ancient past it throughout history. Yeah. That doesn't quite follow, does it?
It doesn't, it doesn't. So it's very interesting to see what exactly it is that because they still have more physiological findings that they need to interpret in terms of the the analysis of the data. But based on the initial findings, this is what we're seeing, which is that there is a normal heart rate. And yes, it would make sense that if somebody does have a fairly normal heart rate, it is quite easy to detect. Same with the respiratory rate. So I think we have to wait until we see further data to really understand what actually happened.
It's very interesting that either they're different states, what you're considering to be that state is different, or the descriptions are not accurate. Or maybe there are different types of states or something like that. And even the experience of your friends who presumably couldn't detect noticeably any heart, heart rate, and so on. Yeah, that's right. There is
there is one idea here, which is the reason why the scientists wanted to replicate the the study is because their understanding is that it's quite possible that maybe over the course of two or three days, the heart rate might actually slow down, the respiratory rate might actually slow down. The reason being is you know, if the heart rate suddenly stopped or slowed down, the body would go into shock. So they're speculating or their their hypothesis is for further study, perhaps over the course of two or three days, and the body goes into what could be known as like a hibernation mode. Because even with animals with hibernation, it will take some time for the for the heart rate, or the blood pressure for the respiratory rates start to slow down. So it might be possible that way, because we have to also understand when those people in the Himalayas, were detecting the body, it had been probably a few days, at least maybe three or four days before they find me in the cave and presumed me to be in a coma or dead. So that might be the case as well.
Yeah, that's a very interesting idea. That's a very interesting idea. Well, I do admire your willingness to be, as you've described it elsewhere, a lab rat, for these things, you know, put yourself under the microscope like that, and also appreciate your candidness and frankness about your experiences, you know, of course, traditionally, maybe it's somewhat cultural. And there are other reasons for it, the sort of frankness that you're displaying now, it has, in some times been in vogue, and other times not been in vogue. And I think we can agree that, for whatever reasons, there are certain time periods where Masters would be coy about making such claims, even today, in fact, I'm not particularly asking if you think that's good or bad. But the sorts of claims you're making and the experiences that you're reporting are, at least it seems, at first glance, really remarkable. Mastering various different systems, high systems of contemplation, various different yogic systems, and including the Buddhist system in a very advanced way. Would you say? You are a remarkable outlier case, in the way you've been able to do that? And if so, to what do you attribute that outlier? Class? Or would you say that there are others like you perhaps many others, like your at least some like you who are more coy about revealing in such a frank way as you've done on which I appreciate you doing, they're more coy about that, for instance, do you think there are people talk Gen masters or masters of chivor, tantra or whatever the case might be, who have attained similarly advanced states and are living as you are claiming to be in the sort of end states of many of these systems. They just won't talk about it. Because it's not it's just not the done thing to do. I'm curious about that. They say it takes a Buddhist I know a Buddha. So I'm curious as to your, your thoughts on that?
Yeah, that's a very good question. I would say, you know, I think I'm not necessarily an outlier, because as far as I'm aware, there are a few select people who, who might, who might talk about it. And I realized that, you know, a lot of the things that I'm talking about do seem remarkable. But at the same time, I would say, from my limited experience, or my limited perspective, is that it is possible for everybody to do this. I don't consider this to be a special case, by any means. Although a lot of the things that we are talking about, are elevated to a certain level of secrecy or elevated or certain level of supremacy in terms of the practice and mastery and things like that. But at the same time, you know, if I was talking about the way I look at the world of spirituality, is there is some level of benefit I do, I do concur with the understanding that there is some level of benefit to keeping certain things, let's say private, unnecessarily secret, but certain kinds of discussions to be one on one, you know, for the sake of clarity and for the sake of non diluting the information that we're talking about, so that people can experience it for themselves. At the same time, my goal, I would say, if I would talk about a goal is to allow people to say, allow people to see that these states are indeed achievable. And there shouldn't be a taboo, or there shouldn't be a kind of limitation on discussing them, provided, provided that the person talking about them have has actually understood and experienced it, right. So in other words, we can only speak upon things that we've actually experienced otherwise, all we're doing is preaching, and all we're doing is just, you know, reflecting and analyzing texts, but I am of the nature to say that if you are a teacher, you should be a teacher who has these experiences, so that you can actually know the roadmap, you actually know the path, and the signposts and be able to guide people and say, hey, look out for this, or know that based on the descriptions of what they're saying, and then recognize where they are on their path. And I also see it as a way of inspiring people. Obviously, when I'm talking about these things, I'm talking about it because you've asked the questions, and I have had the intention to be completely forthright about my experiences, obviously. So you know, otherwise, I have no intention of, you know, shouting out shouting about it on the rooftops, you know, hey, look at this, you know, I have no, no intention like that. And, you know, the way I teach is, and I've always told people, this is the way I teaches.
I only teach if somebody has a question, I don't go out and say, hey, you know, listen to me, and try this out. And you know, all of those things. And I live in a way, which is basically as it's almost like a monastic lifestyle, in the sense that I just go where I'm where I go, and people invite me over to teach, and I go and teach, you know, I'm like, an, I'm just like, this wandering yogi, if you will, you know, and, and I'm on, I'm on the border point between the lay life and the monastic life, if you will, in that sense. So from that perspective, I see that you know, talking about these things only help inspire and motivate if the conditions are right. And what I mean by when I say the conditions are right, is that you have an understanding that the student is ready to discuss these things. Obviously, with this interview, a lot of people are going to have a lot of interesting ideas about what we're talking a lot of interesting speculations and comments, for sure. But the hope is that it will help people inspire them to say, Okay, this is interesting. I'd like to learn more, and check it out and see what it's all about. So, my short answer is, if you have experienced these things, and if you think it will be of benefit for others, why not talk about them? Why not discuss them? And at the same time, I would also say, I mean, in addition to that, I would also say that these states are indeed achievable. These different states that we talked about, I want to be able to demystify them, if you will, because there's a lot of language from the suitors and the different spiritual texts that make them out to be these mystical states that make them out to be almost mythical levels of experience. But I I really admire science and neuroscience in itself. ability to take this and contextualize it for us in a modern way. So that really what we're looking at is saying, Okay, this is what happens in the brain, when you go through these states, this is the benefits that you experience on a neuroscientific level. Because by the way, just as an addition, we are later on going to do fMRI scans. And that's probably going to give us better clarity into what part of part of the what parts of the brain are active during this state, and what parts are not active, you know, and I would say I have a, I have a, let's say vocational interest in neuroscience. I mean, I am a big fan of people like Robert Sapolsky, and other and other people in behavioral neuroscience, and cognitive behavioral therapy and things like that. So, you know, I'm always of the nature to say, if science can help prove to us these kinds of things, then more power to them. And if they can help us disprove other things, and be able to clarify certain kinds of states, in a modern understanding, then more power to them there as well. Hmm,
very interesting. And given that you're asserting here, that it's possible for anybody to attain what you've attained, and perhaps rephrase my original question, how commonly is it attained is where I mean, and for instance, we look at the world today and first glance, it seems to be extraordinarily rare. And so the direction of my question was, Is that because you're extraordinarily, you know, gifted or talented, for example, which people have talents, you know, it's a possible hypothesis, or is it that there are many that have attained it that don't talk about it, because of, say, religious or cultural restraints on their ability to talk about it, for example? Or is there some other explanation as to why it appears to be at first glance, extraordinarily rare what you're claiming, but at the same time, you're making the claim that anybody can do it? So how does that?
Yeah, picture?
Resolve? Yeah,
well, for one, I'll say for me, personally, I think, for me, it's because of my my natural curiosity into spirituality, and my natural willingness to learn without barriers. In other words, my Well, I will have to say, you know, all my foundation in the, in the practice with the Yoga Sutras, and the other traditions, has kind of given me an advantage there. So I would say, yes, it is achievable. But having gone through a lot of effort, and the right kind of effort, so to speak. So I say that it is achievable. But based on the idea that I myself have gone through all of these different practices. So it's a matter of hard work, but the right kind of hard work for somebody to be able to achieve it. At the same time, with, let's say, within the understanding of, let's say, spiritual communities, I do think that there are, there are people who can achieve the states I know of a few personally, I know a few personally, but to what extent that is, throughout different traditions, or throughout the different spiritual backgrounds. I can't say for sure, but I would say that, based on my experience with teachers, in yoga, based on my experience with teachers in Tantra, and Kashmir, Shaivism, and things like that, they indeed are, you know, the real deal, if you will, I mean, they really have these different abilities to do these different kinds of states of Samadhi. And, and I know, and when I'm talking about another few people, I'm talking about people who actually can get into Nero, the summer party, I know of them, and I know of them within the community itself. So perhaps, perhaps, it is rare in the larger scheme of things. But having said that, I still think that it is achievable. If you put in the work, if you put in dedication, if you put in the time, and you have the right effort with the right understanding, it will be able to take you into the same replicable steps towards experiencing Nevada. Now in terms of in terms of the the in terms of the commonality, or in terms of or rather, let's say in terms of the traditional aspect of being secretive about these things. I think it people become naturally secretive about these things, at least from my own experience. I don't really talk about these things. And I say that with the fact that I know that I'm on this podcast. And the only reason I'm talking about these things, like I said before, is because you're asking me the questions and I'm just being honest with what my experience has been. But otherwise, I think naturally even people to get to these different levels of attainment, they are less interested in talking about it to other people, they're more satisfied and content in their own experiences. So there's a there's a loss of conceit. There's a lessening of any kind of pride in these things. But that might be the other reason why people don't talk about it. It's just because the subject never really comes up. And when it does, they don't really have a real interest in talking about it, because naturally, they become less and less egocentric, if you will about these things. Well, Delson,
this has been so fascinating. And I want to reiterate my appreciation for your candid candidness here, talking as you have done so openly about your experiences really remarkable. And excellent. So thank you. I'm curious, you're 31 is that right? I am 31? Yeah. So 31 What now? What now for you? Do you have any more contemplative goals? meditational areas of curiosity and interest, you described yourself as almost a scientist of this stuff, you know, is there anything else you're looking into? Or you're you're working on? In that side of things, then I'll ask you after that, where people can find you, and so on. But let's start with that.
Yeah, you know, it's interesting, I am very happy where I am right now. And a lot of times people now will ask me that question, like, Do you have any expectations? Do you have like a five year plan? Do you have goals, and you have these kinds of things. And basically, what I tell them is, I see life now as being a series of unfolding. So whatever comes down this path will be whatever comes down this path. In terms of my own personal interests, I do like the scientific aspect of it. So for example, I am, I'm a friend of somebody who is within the neuroscientific community. And what we would like to do at some point in time, and just for the benefit of people, both in the scientific community as well as in the contemplative practice community, is to be able to create maybe an app along with the muse or something that's something else, like the news where people can can actually track their meditation progress and things like that. So I'm very fascinated by the neuroscience of it all, and the cognitive behavioral aspect of it. In terms of practice, right now, all I'm doing is just the practice I do, which is, you know, the jhana practice, and then Nevada and things like that. But I'm always interested in talking with people about yoga, about Vedanta about all of these things. And I don't consider myself anything like I don't consider myself a Buddhist, I don't consider myself a VEDA Anthon I don't consider myself a yogi. That sense of image has completely gone. So for me to have a goal night now at this point, it's kind of counterintuitive. I will tell you one thing, I mean, since since I've started down this path, it has naturally and organically grown on its own in terms of my let's say, you know, quote, unquote, teaching career, if you will. And what I mean by that is, you know, people have heard about this practice, and they've heard about my, my experiences a little bit, or they, they've seen my talks, and they're inspired by it, or they've gone to a retreat. And so all of the stuff that has continued to grow is because of word of mouth, people seem to have gotten some benefit from it. And so I don't, I don't advertise, I don't broadcast, you know, what I do or things like that. And but when there's opportunities to talk about it, I do talk about it, when people are naturally curious, and they want to know more about, you know, my practice and my experience. Right now, as I said, I'm working with Dharma suka. And I'm also working with suit Avada Foundation. And you know, they have different goals. So I just go with the flow. And the way I talk to people about this is I'm like a free bird. Like, I don't have any interest in you know, making a name for myself or fame or fortune, and all of these things that come up from being you know, let's say a spiritual teacher and things like that. I just, I'm just a wandering yogi, if you will, as I said before, I just wander around aimlessly until somebody says, Hey, would you be interested in teaching? And I say, okay, that's fine. You know, what the, what did you have in mind, and then they plan it out. Even the Dhamma talks, and I started doing a year ago, but it was not my own intention. So my life has been really now like a series of different people's intentions without any of my own personal ambitions in there. I'm not really any more ambitious person at all. I don't really have Any motivations to see anything grow? I just see it grow when it grows. And, you know, there's always going to be people who have critics criticism about it or you know, things that I do. And I see it in the same way as people who have praise about it. And that's just the way my mind works. Now. It's just things are flowing. And this mind this life, this energy that's continuing on is going with that flow.
And I understand you're working on a book on dependent origination. Can you give us an update on that?
Yeah, I'm still stuck in craving, if you will, I'm stuck on the chapter in craving. I keep telling that to people. Well, so this book came, came about as an idea. I'd say it's been about four or five months. And the idea with this book is, you know, it's sort of like an encyclopedia about dependent origination from and the way it's going to work out is it's going to be probably two volumes, because it's based off of what's known as the open Nissa SUTA. And the open isa suta, talks about 23 links, rather than the 12 links as we understand them. So what I'm doing is I'm going to walk people through from Jarrah Marana and the components of suffering, and walk back towards birth and being and clinging and craving and feeling and so on, all the way at the end all the way to the tents. That is to say, The Last of Us the defilements, of ignorance, of central craving of being, that's going to be the first volume, and then the second volume is going to talk about 12. Or rather 11 additional links, starting with suffering, and the openness of SUTA talks about how suffering can lead to conviction in this practice and how that leads into gladness. And that leads into joy that leads into tranquility, and equanimity, and so on. So that part of that book will be the path leading to Nibbana path, leading to this experience of the jhanas leading to this experience of Nirvana and full awakening. So I'm looking at probably a good year and a half to two years before I'm actually done with the book. And then, you know, then the editing and things like that. So maybe three years down the road, it'll be done, we'll see how things go. I tend to be a fast writer, because once I start to get into it, I write a lot. And basically each chapter itself is almost like a book because each chapter is about 90 100 pages. So it could just be a lot massive 2000 page book, which might just be divided into separate volumes, we'll see how it works. But aside from that, I also have another book that just came out. And then I have three other books that are in in the woodworks, there basically going to be transcripts of different toxic and so they're like collections of different talks I've given and different modules of teaching that I've given that can be available in bookfull.
Well, Delson, this has been fascinating, wonderful conversation. Thank you very much. You know, I'd love to do a sequel. No, there's so much we haven't talked on for you have very interesting views on 31 planes of existence are their psychological states, as is commonly said are the actual places that you can end up and you have some very distinct views on that perhaps I'll just tease that question. And yeah, so anyway, Delson Armstrong, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for listening to another guru Viking podcast. For more interviews like these, as well as articles, videos, and guided meditations, visit www dot Guru viking.com