🐛 Pests vs Your Healthy Plants, Beneficial Insects, and Pesticide Modes of Action, with Matthew Gates

3:05AM Jan 28, 2025

Speakers:

Jordan River

Keywords:

pest resistance

plant health

beneficial insects

IPM strategy

pesticide modes

plant defenses

genetic resistance

environmental factors

bio controls

predator mites

empirical evidence

pest repellents

plant physiology

IPM semantics

beneficial predators

Greetings, cultivators worldwide. Jordan Ripper here back with more. Grow cast for your listening pleasure, today we have Matthew gates back on the line, my friend, fantastic. Pest expert, IPM expert entomologist. This is a particularly strong episode, really great episode about pest resistance, plant health, beneficial insects and more. It's a really, really good one, like I said, I'm just gonna keep saying it very strong episode. I know you're gonna love it before we jump into it with Matthew, though, shout out to AC infinity, the best grow gear in the game. Code grow cast one five saves you 15% at AC infinity.com. They've got the thick, sturdy tents with the thick canvas and the thick tent poles, the best tents in the game. They've got the fans that you need, the inline fans, the cloud Ray oscillating fans. Now again, code growcast, one, five for 15% off, the best quality grow gear you can find. They've also got lights and scissors and pots and hangers and so much more. But when it comes to the fans and the tents, there's no one else out there that does it better. The inline fans, the cloud Line series are fantastic. The S series is the simple. Series still comes with a 10 speed fan controller. And the T series comes with a controller that lets you automatically dial in your temperature and humidity. AC infinity.com, code, grow cast, one, five for 15% off. They even have grow kits that come with everything you need to expand. Get that second veg tent. Get that second flower tent you've been thinking about save with the kit and use code grow cast one five, which now works on those kits, saving you extra money with the best gear in the game. Acinity.com, they've been our partners for years. They've really, expanded and done a great job. Acinity.com, code, grow cast, one, five. Alright, let's get into it with Matthew gates, thank you for listening and enjoy the show. Hello, podcast listeners, you are now listening to grow cast. I'm your host, Jordan River, and I want to thank you for tuning in again today. Before we get started, as always, I urge you to share this show. Turn a grower on to grow cast. It's the best thing you think you could do. And, of course, turn a smoker on to growing that helps us on our mission of overgrow. Make sure you check out everything we're doing at growcast podcast.com there you will find membership. Come and join the greatest community in cannabis cultivation. And you'll also find the seeds and the classes and all the fun stuff. It's all there special. Thank you to all of the Grow cast members. I appreciate you. Today we have good friend of the show back on the line. Speaking of classes, this is an individual that I'm very excited about teaching a class with later this year. We're gonna get into all of it. Today, we have Matthew gates back on the line. What's up, Matthew, how you doing?

I'm doing great. Hey, I love to hear it, man,

coming to us from SoCal, of course, I can't wait to get back out there. But we're actually going to be doing a class out here in July That's right, right smack dab in the middle of July. We're going to be doing a class here in Illinois, is what I mean by that, and that's going to be in Rockford, Illinois, and then also down in Frankfort at all SIP nursery. So yeah, we're going to do a next level Garden Supply in Rockford, and then all SIP nursery, which is the first time teaching there. That's a big nursery, Matthew. They're really, really like, part of the Illinois grow community. I'm very, very excited, of course, to get into my favorite garden store next level again. But I'm also extra stoked because the day after, we're going to all sip, which is a very exciting nursery to get into.

I love flexing my muscles with regards to all the different plants and things we have to consider. You know, cannabis, big one for me, of course, but it's nice to be able to talk about some of the new things going on the world. Yeah, it's going to be cool

to play to a little bit of a different audience. I imagine there's going to be some like you said, other crop growers. And that's the cool thing about IPM. I'm sure you get to see a wider scope, you know, than just people who are strictly into into cannabis. So that's really cool, man. And I'm excited for July's class. But yeah, what else has been going on, Matthew, before we jump into all these awesome questions and topics, what's been going on in your world? What's been

happening? Well, for starters, I think people might know this already, but I'm working on a book. The working title is, ever swarm, disrupt pest adaptation with strategic biodiversity, which is a mouthful, but I think it really does encompass the way that people have to go about plant health in general, and, you know, IPM specifically, and techniques and that kind of a thing. So it's meant to be a practical guide. So I'm excited about that goes a little a little bit into IPM theory, you know, kind of the biology of it all people who probably my work definitely know what I'm talking about, and it's why I like to go into those events, and I like to do the pests, to lose it with you, because we get to talk about these important topics that I think are sometimes hard to parse or misunderstood. Yeah,

absolutely, man, and you are the one that brings it down to earth for us. I love. A subtitle. It's a perfect subtitle. I've not heard the subtitle last time you brought the the working title, but that subtitle really brings it brings it around. Man. Now, like I said, we have a Pesta Palooza right there in mid July. It's the I can see the date here. Just go ahead and reserve this date in your calendar. We will have tickets available really, really shortly, again, you're going to want to sign up for the green list. That's how you can keep track of all of our classes. Whenever they drop, grow, cast, podcast.com/classes, the two dates are July 13, Rockford, Illinois, Next Level Garden Supply, and then july 14, all SIP nursery. So those are the dates we're in Illinois. Go ahead and mark those off, and then, like I said, stay tuned. Those tickets are dropping. Get on the green list. You'll get a special discount anyways. Grow cast podcast.com/list, great stuff. Matthew, fantastic stuff. Listen. Now that the housekeeping is out of the way, I'm excited to get into these topics, and the reason that I'm most excited to talk about the subjects of today's episode, it's because we've had this conversation off air quite a bit. You know, when me and Matthew are traveling, we're always talking about cannabis and cultivation and just everything. But, you know, this topic of pest resistance is something that me and you have spoke about at length, so I'm very excited to dig into it. And there's a lot of stuff around people saying, you know, oh, I got the resistant cultivar, and my plants don't get sick, they don't get bugs, they don't get pests at all, because they're so healthy. And I know that you you tend to, you tend to perk up there and say, there's much more to it than a lot of the ways that it's presented. So let's start right at the top man on that subject, right there, plant health and its relation to pest resistance. Talk about your general thoughts on this. You know the idea of pests choosing weaker targets, so to speak. How does a plant's health and nutrition play into its odds of being attacked by something like an insect?

I think it's really helpful to start by considering how, like, how does the plan grow, right? And some of the basics of, like, plant biology, right? You know, the obvious thing that most people know about plants is that they don't move, right? Animals have Animus. That's where the name comes from animals move, generally speaking, and plants generally don't. So their their way of developing defenses had to encompass this you might call weakness, the susceptibility. So plant health is all about taking the nutrients that they can get access to right in their substrate, in their soil, usually, and then taking that those nutrients and using that to power primary growth, which is just regular growth of like leaves and stems and all that stuff, and secondary or metabolic growth. So usually these are things like defense compounds, volatiles, that are important for communication with various organisms. Sometimes that communication is a little bit more passive than others. So all of a plant's capabilities are wrapped up in its environmental restrictions, what it has access to, and what's exposed to. Like, is there too much light? Is there a lot of moisture? Is it a very dry place? You know, what's the hydration like? How humid is it in the air? That kind of a thing. And then on top of that, there's the genetic component. Because even if a plant gets all the nutrients that it needs, or even a super abundance of it, not too much to be toxic, but still a really an optimal amount, we might say, hypothetically, it's like if you have a weapon, but that weapon can't penetrate the armor of the target. It kind of doesn't matter, right? So similarly, with plants, if they have not the right traits, it kind of doesn't matter how healthy they are, because if the thing that's affecting them, fungus, bacteria, an insect or something, those things, if they're able to come and bypass some way the defenses of the plant has already and it can't stop that, then that's all there is to it. So plant health is not the only thing. You also need a plant that can do the things that we need to. That's why research into things like the genetic component of resistance that plants have. What do those genes do? What are they doing in tandem, what are they doing in an isolated way, and then using those to, like, help us with breeding, like marker assisted breeding does and that kind of stuff, which is interesting, because that's happening cannabis right now. Yeah,

that is a good point. The link between documenting these genes and when you say, you know these traits, you. Were talking about, specifically in cannabis, things like producing certain terpene compounds to keep pests away, producing thick, hard to penetrate cell walls in the stocks and the leaves and things like that, is

that correct 100% IPM is not just like products that you buy off of a list that kill a an insect or a fungus or something IPM. Holistic approach is multi domain. It's multifaceted. You're looking at all of these different components, and exactly as you say, you know some of these are not necessarily going to be like a lethal chemical compound that's exuded that hurts the insect or something. It might be something like a bunch of small cuts. You know, like many a small bird drives away a hawk kind of a thing where all the components come together to be more than some of their parts. Oh, that's

a good point. So, so you have this terpene being produced that the insect kind of doesn't like, and it's like, Ah, I don't like this, but I'm going to soldier on. And then it bites into the cell on us. Man. It's really, really tough to get through this. So now I'm kind of not liking this one thing, and it's difficult to get through. And then, okay, I finally get through, but it's really high in certain flavonoids, so now it's bitter. Okay, I'm out of here. I'm gonna move on to an easier target,

that sort of thing, essentially, exactly. And so an insect, or, you know, some other like a mite or whatever. Maybe it will keep going. Maybe can tolerate this, but what will happen is it's, you know, doesn't reproduce as much, or perhaps it wastes a lot of energy trying to find the right place to go, because there might also be predators walking around too, and they might smell the predator, or in some way, perceive the predator, get exposure to it. And so then it might go, ah, you know, I'm going to start like, if you're an aphid, maybe you start reproducing the generation that has wings next, you know, we only get out of here. Or if you're an adult, Wi Fi, maybe you start flying around because you get exposed in the SWIR coming around. And you're just not enjoying what you're eating. And you're not, you're kind of like starving somewhat, because all of these different factors are coming together. So that's essentially what you're looking to do. All the advantages that you can create and manifest and then affect the pest, but not just one pest, right? You have to consider multiple pests, because it's likely that you'll encounter not just one. Is isolated like it's a Bruce Lee movie where you know people honorably come through, you know one person, one person, you're getting jumped probably it happens a lot.

Oh, my God, that is a good analogy. But wait, I gotta stop for a second and back it up to what you just said and highlight what you just said, because I've never really put this together. When I'm thinking about pest resistance. I'm thinking about it in two binary of a fashion, like the plant is the pest is feeding and then it moves on, or something like that. But what you just said was really important, which is, if you can literally just slow its efficiency, like slow its efficacy, that's the difference between a mild, totally easy to deal with infestation and, like, a horrible not gonna recover from it, type infestation. It's like, you remember the game StarCraft, the real time strategy game Starcraft. I love Starcraft. Yeah. Well, there you go. Like, if everything's humming along and that economy is running, if your Zurich economy is booming, we got a major problem. But if you can just slow that economy, like you said, slow their reproduction, right? Just make it a little bit harder for them. That's kind of like winning the battle. It's not, it's not just they move on. It's, it's you made it less impactful. You made their attack less impactful. I never really put that together until now. I think it's a really excellent way to to appreciate how plants are as strong as they are, but also where things can become difficult. And I'm glad that you appreciate that, because that's like, I think the future of IPM, and a lot of ways, is actually the past. People have been doing this other crops in various ways, but this can also be cannabis. And I think also, as our understanding of plant physiology increases our ability to affect these discrete effects, and also not just affect them, but measure them in a way that allows us to make informed decisions. Is like another piece of the puzzle too. Okay, so that was really good stuff, man. I think that's a really, really good way to put it. And when it comes down to it, it is just much more multifaceted than we tend to think. I think we tend to be reductive in our thinking about this sort of thing. I also think we toss around terminology a lot, and I know sometimes this, this can bug you. I think we've talked about on the show before, but like just the terms mold resistant or pest resistant, specifically when it comes to talking about certain cultivars, which the first thing that comes to mind, Matthew, before even, like, get your full thoughts on this. Wouldn't that be, like, phenotype dependent? Like, if you're selling me a seed, it's one thing if you're selling me a cut, but if you're selling me a seed, and you're saying, like, this, this strain, this. Ross is resistant to, is that even a thing, isn't that, like, saying, hey, any two, any kids that these two parents have, will have a lower risk of cancer. Like, how can you, is that even something you can really guarantee? I'm not even sure that's provable.

You know what I mean, yeah. How do you empirically do that? And also, how do you, how do you have, like, the confidence that your resistant plant is going to be resistant in the environment? That is so. So in other crops, there are, there are standards, although it can still also be kind of fuzzy, even in crops where we understand the genetic components of certain resistance or tolerance, you know, very strongly, right and right there, I just, I just use two terms here, tolerance versus resistance. What does that mean? So, like versus susceptible? So like a plant that's tolerant of a pest. Oftentimes, the way that people will define this is that the plant can continue to grow and probably yield a good, you know, an amount that's not like problematic from exposure to the pest. Now, different populations of that pest, they might be very different, so I just working on a video for budworm moths. I just on my Instagram, I put out a teaser video talking about some of the aspects of this were like to give you an example bud worms, which nobody likes in cannabis, right? They're very common in South Africa, sorry, South America, and also South Africa and other places

that's kind of messed up, but you're right.

And these places, they get exposed to, like really noxious compounds that are banned in other places. But that doesn't matter, because those populations can move very far, and they move into the USA, and during springtime, they hybridize with the populations that are already in the USA and North America generally. And long story short, they're stronger. They're more resistant to things even things like DDT, which is obviously very impressive, and even things like BT, okay, people, I've heard people say that pests can't be resistant to bio controls, but that's literally evolution. As I think I've said exactly on this show before, it's literally evolution. That's not true, but it is true that it's a little bit more complicated than just a simple like receptor change or something for a chemical, but it does happen. It's just, it's just a more complicated resistance behavioral, and there are other components as well, but

that makes perfect sense. So my question to you, and I do want to say both sides of this story, but my question for you is, what would define something as, like, resistant, right? Like, what would you need to see to be like, yes, this particular plant is resistant to this particular thing.

So when I ask people, because I've asked breeders, sometimes I get not the greatest reception. I think for asking these questions, they're a little bit blind man.

I mean, you know, I'm saying, like, you shouldn't be able to respond, or just say, I'm not sure this is what I believe. But, you know, I'm not a certain of it. Sorry. Go ahead.

Yeah, no, I agree. I just feel like, I mean, I try to be very polite about it too. But I think that the issue is partly that a lot of people don't realize, kind of, like, the underlying physics of plant breeding somewhat like it's not going to there are different plant there are changes and differences between plants, but a lot of the way that it works is very similar, and certain rules of like genetics are still kind of in play. Anyways, my point is to answer your question. I would look for responses like if I ask them if it's resistant to a pest, like some people would just say that the planet is resistant to fungi, and that's just a broad because different kinds of fungi have different kinds of techniques and different strains of certain fungal pathogens, like powdery mildews or bitter scenario or something, There are different strains out there that different capabilities. So breeders know to do this and other crops to challenge the immune system. So if I hear that they actually, in a controlled fashion, are challenging the plant with the pests, whether it's like powdered mildew and like making sure that they're making contact, also in a controlled way, typically, and if they're also considering these different strains, then I think to myself, Oh, these people are competent in what's necessary to actually make a objective statement. Also, most breeders understand that the plant's performance, like you said, very adroitly, is going to depend on the environment too. So certain resistances might not work very well in like, for example, an arid environment versus a more humid environment. So if they're if they're real about this, if they're real about the potential vulnerabilities or weaknesses, then that. Is a very great it's a big green flag in my book, but I don't encounter that very often.

I mean, listen, people get defensive sometimes, man, people get defensive about all sorts of stuff. But, um, I could not agree more with what you just said. I would like to compare it just for a minute to coffee, which is interesting. It goes right along with what you just said, which is coffee, they understand what's attacking their plant a little bit better. Primarily, it's something called coffee rust. It is a mold type rust that affects the plants, and it is a pest that devastates, you know, millions and millions, maybe billions, of dollars worth of this crop. And so you know, if they try to breed a cultivar that's resistant to coffee rust, that's a big statement. And what they do is exactly what you just said it. And rise of riches brought this up before they test it, they have a control. And then they release coffee rust into it, they attack the plant with and they see how it does. And they also do it at large scales, and they document it, and they do it at universities, and they have, they end up with data. They end up with, you know, multiple locations around the globe testing this the same cultivar, and they end up with with real data, and that's when they can finally say this is resistant cultivar. Now I do want to say, though, on the other hand, I am a big fan of empirical evidence, and I think there's a difference between saying exactly like you just said, this is a mold resistant strain, that's a that is a wild claim that needs a lot of research, versus these people who have been growing a cultivar in an area for, like, years and decades. Sometimes they know it does well in their area. That's a little bit different, right? These people who have been growing the same strain in Hawaii for a while, and they know that it works well there, and it's adapted over time. I think you can say with confidence there that, yes, this strain is resistant and does well in this area without any data really. That's just empirical, that's just, that's just how it works. But to say, hey, I can ship you this cut, or, like I said, I can ship you these seeds without it being some crazy inbred line where they selected for all the stuff and used genetic I can ship you these seeds and they'll be mold resistant. Those two claims are wildly different to me. Matthew, am I making sense?

Absolutely, you've touched on the the big point, I think, which is that what people are claiming is incredibly important, and also what like, for example, I agree, if we go back to, like, kind of the laws, or like the physics of like, uh, evolution and that kind of thing, like, generally speaking, I would expect a population of a plant that is grown in an area for A long period of time is exposed to these things. And if growers, especially at scale, they come and say, You know what we find that just when we harvest or whatever, like, things do better with this cultivar. You know, that's good information. It's not as objective as like coming and finding like the, well, what's the mode of action? Is there, is there a genetic component? How much of it is environmental, how much of it is the other aspects for IPM program and that sort of a thing? But that is where it starts, right? For example, when people come to me and they say, Yeah, I have, I had a group of, like, four different cultivars, and, like, all of them got tons of powdery mildew, you know, and they're just blooming full of white powder everywhere. But that group had, like none in an enclosed space. Yeah, I want to look at that one first, you know, right? Is it enough to say that it's resistant in all cases? No, but it's where that kind of search should start. And I think that those observations are super critical too. But another aspect is also, I would look for them to be excited to share, like a breeder, what those genes are, or to prove it in another way. That's not necessarily always necessary, and sometimes proprietary information, but if they are willing to share that information, or if they're willing to say, like, hey, well, actually, we did the research here. It's published. You know, that's really important, and also is helpful for when other people want to breed, because just because you put these two together doesn't mean their progeny will also be as resistant, or even be resistant in the same way. So those factors are important too.

Yeah, that's, that's exactly right. And like you said, that is how you would prove it. If you want to prove it, that's how you prove it. But like I said, going back to coffee, the thing about, you know, studies and data is, you think that it, you know, a lot of people say this about cannabis. If we could just get more studies on the plant, it would clear everything up, right? It's not how it works a lot of the time. Man like coffee. Coffee is the most studied food product on Earth, and doctors won't agree if it's good or for you or bad for you, and new studies come out all the time, showing one way or the other. So it's just funny. I like uh locally to go with my empirical evidence. Instance. But then, when thinking on a macro level, refer more to the to the big data. That's that's generally how I how I operate. But, yeah, I don't want to knock those people who have been like, I said, selecting for their environment and seeing results, that is a real thing. But when people come out and say, Hey, this strain is pest or mold resistant, I'm always like, oh, boy, here we go. It's just an interesting it's an interesting thing. Man, we'll see how the the market develops. As you know, we enter globalization, and when it comes to cannabis, you know what I mean. And who knows, maybe there's going to be less cultivars, like with coffee, there's, there's way less varieties that people are growing compared to cannabis. And

who knows, who knows?

Any thoughts on that, Matthew, or we can move on to this next topic of pest repellents. I'm very excited to get

into No, I just want to say that really, it's really interesting perspective. I like the way that you go about things. I think that that's a lot of ways. The most appropriate way is that you if you're in a region, if you're talking to people you know, ask what their impressions are, because that's where a lot of this sort of still start starting from, and it's where it's kind of the crucible where we start to get our resources for maybe more empirical or more Research cultivars in resistance. All sad, Well said, sir.

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you're touching on, like, a really, a really salient point when it comes to IPM, and I think, just like plant health in general, which is that, like, like we said about with resistances, like, it's all graduated, you know, there's, there's on a spectrum of, like, susceptibility and resistance, and then that's also mediated by environmental factors and things, right? And I think that with regards to the mode of action of, like, a pesticide, most legal definitions are going to be things like, it's a product that is meant to kill, or another ways mitigate, you know, a target, in this case, the pest. So even something that might be considered like having like, repellent qualities, so things, so in this case, something that maybe isn't lethal, but it dissuades Now the thing about like insects and mites and and pests, like those that are like arthropods, they have a very different way of perceiving the world than we do. And I think that in a lot of cases, products that in agricultural sense, are repellents, they're also going to be considered pesticides. But like you say, it's important to know what the mode of action is, because some of these products, they have, they can be repelling as like a scent, right? But sometimes a product might have anti feedant qualities, which is kind of like a repellent. They might also be mildly toxic too, or moderately or severely. But like, for example, neem is a good example. There. There are products and compounds from the neem extract from the neem trees that for some insects, they have this sort of anti feeding effect. So not only is it toxic to them, but also, like makes them stop feeding. And so that can be kind of like a repellent too. Capsaicin products are sometimes mixed with a pesticidal product, or they're applied sequentially so that the capsaicin kind of disrupts and disturbs the insect, or might press one that is, like wedged in some specialty crops and situations, this is used to, like, make the insect kind of move around and exit where it was hiding, maybe, and then the pesticide that is brought in afterwards is more effective for this reason. I've

heard this. It's like an irritant, almost to get them moving around Exactly, okay? Again, there's more than we're thinking about, right? It's multifaceted, but all of that, all of those things are like anti pest products. That's a good point. You're trying to mitigate it. You're trying to slow down their economy, make them breed less fast, feed less fast, choose a different target, or otherwise repel them. When we are talking about repellents, is it, like you said, Is it mostly like a scent thing? You know, I see a lot of these sprays are like things that that smell strong to me? Peppermint oil, rosemary oil. Why does that mess up a mites little

sniffer? Yeah, so basically, that's kind of what I was getting at earlier. I feel like insects and mice, they might not have the same reactions that we do to a particular product. In my ultimate aphid analysis video I made a few months ago, I touched upon the fact that, for example, a lot of aphids have an alarm pheromone called E beta pharma pharmacy, which is in a lot of plants too, and their response to it makes them drop from the plants. It's like it's a response to maybe a predator, or something like this. And so one will produce it, and then others nearby, which are clonal coffees in a colony, they'll also drop off. So there are definitely insects that will have sometimes very specific and reliably consistent reactions to certain products, but other insects will have, like no response, perhaps, and I think that it's really important because, again, that's why I call it the ever swarm. In my book, it's about how there's this constant array of not just one pest, but multiple pests. Some of them are fungi, some of them are insects, some of them are mites, right? And their interaction with something like volatile compounds that a plant produces, or secondary metabolites or products that we synthesize or extract and then utilize, like pesticides, they are also a factor as well.

Now I know you're hesitant to just say like, Hey, this is these are the products I recommend, but do you recommend certain categories of products. Do you recommend people use a certain type of repellent spray or a certain type of physical repellent? Or do you just try to kind of meet people where they're at and what they're already using?

Generally, I like to look at it from like a cost benefit analysis. I'm not usually always so reductive. I. But a lot of times it's a great way to start, because some of these products that are being applied, Dr Sims, or some other products, they might it's important to know, like, how it's supposed to work, like, what, what is it doing to the target? Because you because it would be unfortunate if you wasted a bunch of product and time and energy to apply something when it doesn't really work in the way that you thought, and that that can be very wasteful, and so little efficiency changes like that are really good, like I was saying earlier, with regards to, like, the various pests, like, some pests are going to be affected by some products, and some are not going to be affected by those products. So it's very hard to paint with a broad brush. You have to, kind of know, you have to, like, a plan for every single one. And in a way, you also want to create a resilient network of tactics and strategies that you're trying to do, to, like, limit as many pests that you're think, that you're likely to encounter, if that makes sense. So you can't just a good way to put it. You can't just rely on one particular product to do everything, or a few of them to do everything. And that's that's the fragility of a system from the past that I think a lot of people nowadays find almost like blase to say, but yeah, like, don't just rely on one chemical compound. You know, we've learned the problems with

that. It is true. And actually we do a really good segment of this for Pesta palooza. We will be streaming Pesta Palooza live too. If you want to just check out the content and tune into the Zoom, that will be an option. But we literally go over this how to create an extensive IPM plan. And you're right, Matthew, you know, a lot of people neglect the root zone and having having something in there to protect your root zone, having a plan if something goes wrong in the root zone. And we go over products specifically and what they will and won't do. But I will say this, you know, for the sake of time, on this episode, construct an IPM plan that is multifaceted in the way that Matthew just mentioned, which is, like, you know, in veg, use the modes of actions that hang around. You're not going to be smoking what you spray in veg, right? So, use those products that hang around in our repellent. You know, I might put wettable sulfur in this category. I might put those oil, horticultural oil sprays that we mentioned earlier in this category. You know those are appropriate, as Matthew said, modes of action in veg, and then save that doctor zymes for flower, where it does such a good job, right, leaving zero residue. It's really the only thing I ever spray my flowers. But keep in mind the way that these things work, and know, know what you're spraying and what type of kind of category that it falls into, because it can be a make or break for an effective IPM scenario or an IPM plan that you really shoot

yourself in the foot. So, good stuff. Matthew, good overview, for sure. Talk to me about

beneficial insects, though, because, you know, I'm one of these people that I'm I am primarily an indoor tent grower, and like you said, My IPM plan can sometimes just resemble a list of sprays. But I know a lot of people have really good success with beneficial insects. Talk about when it's a good idea to use beneficial insects, maybe when it won't be so effective, and what you recommend for maybe a beginner like me who's never really done it,

well, I think that, like a reliable plan, is essentially one that is robust, and, like you were saying, and so many being very, very well, I feel like you have to have a plan that has if you're going to be multifaceted, it has to also be one that is robust in that it might have multiple things that maybe sometimes have some overlap, but not completely. That can sometimes mean a little bit more expensive. It can sometimes mean essentially a little bit more redundancy, like, for example, if you're in a tent, so your IPM is not just these products that you're applying. Your IPM is also the tent itself and the room it's inside, and your house and how you keep your backyard, and in a lot of ways, things that you don't have any control over, like where you live potentially. So IPM is about like, creating that threat model. And so with regards to like, bio controls, you want to understand what they target. People will sometimes ask me, Hey, what's the best bio control to use? And I'm like, for what? Because it really depends on on what that is. And you might know that, like, for example, let's say spider mites have a susceptibility to persimilous mice, but persimilis mice won't feed on other kinds of mites, so you pretty much can only use it against spider mites. Do you apply them early? Do you apply them weekly? If you know that spider mice are going to be in your future because it's summer and they always come in no matter what you do or are you like Jordan here? Where you can rely on a really good biosecurity in the in regards to your tent, and it works out well, and you can, you can just use other products preventatively, and it checks out for you. You know, everyone's context is a little bit different. Be

honest. Do you see people using bio controls like beneficial insects in their tent grows inside in a home growth scenario with success a lot, or is it harder to keep them alive in a tent like that?

I do see success. A big part of the success, though, is going to be, I think, dependent on, like, your expectations. So like, for example, I have had a lot of people who have come to me and said that they they tried to use bio controls, and they didn't work very well. And I think maybe, like the top three reasons for that, when I ask why that is, and I sort of investigate, one aspect of that will be that they didn't use the right bio control, so they spent a bunch of money applying the bio control and not seeing anything happen for sometimes weeks, that's very frustrating. That's going to make you not want to use bio controls in the future, but say that you did actually know the basic information that you need to know. Another part of it is then, do you have enough plants? So is it successful? Maybe. But did you spend a lot of money? Possibly, because a lot of times these bio controls are sold for, you know, scales that are larger than a three by 310, or four by four, or something like this, right? But if you have, like, a small population of aphids or spider mites or something, and you hit them with like 1000 or 2000 of like lace wing larvae or similar spines, respectively, in a small enclosed tent, and you're smart about how you do it, and you leave the bottle in or or whatever, and you're very effective in that way, then, yeah, you can totally have success. It's just at what cost. It makes sense, yeah. And

I'm glad to hear that, you know, because I'm always worried, like, are they really going to stick around, like you said, or are they going to are they going to be effective first of all, and then how long are they going to stick around? And is that going to be worth the money? Yeah? Money? But like you said, you're not using any sprays at that point. It really is a cool tactic. What about that, though? What about mixing sprays with beneficial insects? I'm sure it depends and varies, insect to insect and pest to pest. But is that something you recommend in general, like continuing to spray while you have beneficial insects on site,

it can be, it definitely depends on what you're spraying. And like we were saying before, you have to consider various pests, right? So given a scenario like, maybe, maybe you just know that, like, you're gonna get spider mice in the summer, and you're going to get powdery mildew in the autumn or winter or botrytis, right? A lot of people struggle with these two, and they often struggle at around these times. So if you know that they're going to come around, then maybe you have a protocol where the first spider mites that come in, you apply some sort of chemical agent, like maybe wet sulfur, or you apply a another kind of product that's effective, that's like, safe to use, and that kind of a thing. And maybe that does it, and you're fine. But maybe what you'd like to do is that you you do the chemical application first, and you're in Veg or something, and then you come in with the persimilis afterwards, you wait a few days, or you order so it comes in next week, and then you apply them. And maybe it makes sense to you, because of your scale or whatever, that you just apply them for like five weeks, because those are the peak incidences where you have them. Similarly, with autumn, now that you're in flower, maybe you try to apply some microbial bio controls for like botrytis or for powdery mildew or something. There's some microbial products out there that you can basically seed into the foliage, and they're not, you know, toxic to us. They don't harm us in any sort of way. But these microbial products, if they're there before you get, like, the spores, that sort of thing, they severely limit the development of these fungi. But you have to know they're coming. And if you wait until the very end, and you have a bunch of botrytis, like, you can't really help it at that point. So a big part of is kind of knowing what your historical data is. And if it's your first time you don't have that, well, then you're going to have to make a plan that's maybe a little bit more generic, potentially. Yeah, that

makes sense. I'm going to try this. This is something that I've been meaning to do for a while. Now, I've used nematodes and things like that, but I've never like when I think beneficial insects, I think something cool, you know what I mean, something like parasitic wasps, or, you know, Pirate bugs, or something, I guess, like you said, I don't want to just ask, like, hey, what's the best one to release, because I know that's dependent on the infestation. But what's your favorite? Let me ask you that, what's your favorite, beneficial predator insect, and why? Okay,

I think I have a strong affinity for predatory mites in particular, like Coronavirus or SWIR ski, because I kind of cut my teeth on bio controls with these predator mites in like ornamental Flora culture especially, and also even in cannabis too. But they are good generalists, so they go. So they do go after a few different really common pest, like, they'll go after a lot of different thrips. They'll go after some white fly species. They'll go after, they'll go after, like russet mites, and they'll go after broad mites too. Kind of nice, exactly. And so if they can also feed on fallen so they're, they're types three generalists. There's a scale called the McMurtry scale. This was an entomologist who went out and sort of characterized the various Pretoria mice in the family phytocad which is like persimilis, cucumbers, risky eye, a lot of these. And basically the scale is, do they, are they specialized on spider mites? And then it broadens to, are they like a generalist? And some of these also feed on pollen, like California kiss does SWIR ski eye and coumarist. And so you can also keep them on pollen bearing plants, and that opens up a new dimension where it's more sustainable, and you just have, like, this battalion that's at the ready all the time. I would love to get my earth box set up with a couple of, like two cannabis plants, and then if I could stick like an ornamental pepper plant either in the same earth box or really close by right, and then see if I could feed some of those

generalist predator mites. That would be cool. That would be fun, just to do very cool man, very good stuff. Listen, we blew through this episode, and I want to make sure that I leave plenty of time for plugs, for where people can find Matthew gates at sync, angel on Instagram. Most importantly, go subscribe to the YouTube that's zenthan All on YouTube as well as the Patreon. Matthew, what are the URLs and websites for all those things and everything you're doing? Yeah, youtube.com/sentinel,

for YouTube at sync, angel on Instagram and Twitter. Patreon is patreon.com/sentinel as well. If you want to join our Discord or as little as $1 a month, you can basically have an IPM specialist in your back pocket and also talk with a bunch of other people who are IPM oriented. About 150 people or so we have now, and that's crept up a little bit recently. So, you know, feel free to join and learn that kind of stuff. And of

course, Pesta palooza. It is July 13 and 14th, and that is in Illinois, but also online via zoom. So stay tuned. Big announcement we'll be dropping on that. You'll hear about it here on the podcast, but you'll hear about it first on the green list at growcast podcast.com that's free. Get on the email list. Stay up to date. Come and see me and Matthew. It's always a blast. You can pick Matthew's brain, and you can get stoned with me, and we have a really good time every time we do Pesta Palooza, it's a blast. So don't miss it, folks. That's all for now, though, Matthew. Any parting words here before we wrap up this awesome show? It was just really, really good. I loved everything from the talk about resistance claims and how that works, all the way up to beneficial insects, which is a topic I love to cover

any parting words, the relationship that plants have with various things like pests, what we call pests, that's a human term, has been around for like, 500 plus million years, and they've been doing it really good. In fact, never forget that a lot of plants even depend on herbivorous insects and things to pollinate them. Think caterpillars and butterflies. That's sort of a thing. So I think the most important thing I could say is that we shouldn't forget that so many of these organisms are interrelated, and it's humans that like to divide them up artificially in our way to analyze and understand them, but also it can limit our ability to appreciate the capabilities of both. Oh, man,

that was really well said. Listen, I don't want to go to get dark or anything, but that needs to go on your tombstone. Man, that was brilliant. That's great. Sync. Angel, everybody. Matthew gates, go and subscribe. Give them a follow. Check out the Patreon and really, really good episode. Man, that's all for today. Everyone. Thank you for tuning in. Give us a follow on all the platforms we're grow cast. You know where to find us and stay subscribed for some awesome content headed your way. This is Matthew gates and Jordan River signing off, saying, Be safe out there, everybody and grow smarter. That's our show. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you so much to Matthew gates and special thank you to the members of. Growcast podcast.com is where you can find everything. You can find the seeds, the classes, the membership go there. Sign up for the email list. It's free, and I just appreciate you tuning into this show, though. Thank you for the years. Always appreciate that. Before we wrap it up, really quickly, shout out to rain science, grow bags. I love rain science. Grow bags, the best containers to grow in. These things last a lifetime. Rainscience, grow bags.com, code, growcast saves you 10% members of growcast membership get 20% off their rain science, grow bags with their secret member. Code, I love these containers. Like I said, not only do they last a lifetime and they're machine washable, you still get that breathability and that air pruning so your roots are nice and thick and healthy. They've also got different thicknesses of the mesh, and so you can get different styles of that mesh and different dry backs. They've also got grommets that are built into the sides of the pus for easy, low stress training. I love these things, whether you're getting cones for propagation, one gallons, three gallons, five gallons, all the way up to living soil beds. You can find it all at rain science grow bags.com. Use code growcast right now for 10% off, or just do yourself a favor and go join membership and save 20% on your rain science grow bags, plus all the other discounts. Rain science grow bags. Thank you to my favorite container makers for cultivation. Rain science grow bags. All right, that's all thank you all so much. Be safe out there, bye.

That's all there is to it. I.