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481 The Double-Edged Sword of Activism in Architecture with Lance Cayko_1 | Otter.ai

481 The Double-Edged Sword of Activism in Architecture with Lance Cayko_1

Enoch Sears1h 10min

Speaker 1

00:00

You got to start looking for those little pieces of opportunity and start playing the hand, right and it starts every single day. And it starts with discipline, it does still require hard work, it's keeping your nose clean as much as you can, and moving forward every single day but not playing the victim.

Enoch Sears

00:15

This is the Business of Architecture. Hello, and welcome back architect Nation. I'm Enoch Sears. And this is the show where you'll discover tips, strategies and secrets for building an architectural practice that lets you do your best work more often. If you haven't already discovered the four pillars of a smart practice. Get your free on demand video training at Smart practice method.com. And now a word from our sponsor, our cat, them, as we know, is very important, but it's not the only thing you need for your next project. That's why it's important that 95% of manufacturers who offer free BIM files on our cat also have another type of data for your project needs. That means that if you go to arquette.com 95% of the products with BIM also have CAD files also have a specification, as well as being able to use the patented spec wizard tool. And they also have project information to help you make the right selection for your next project. So stop going to a site with just BIM. Go check out our sponsor, our cat.com to get everything you need for your next project for free and without registering which is pretty cool. That's our cat a r c a t.com. Now, about today's episode. As architects, we're passionate about a great many subjects including the built environment, social issues, sustainability and more. But today, our guest asked the question is the focus on activism by our national advocates within the industry, the American Institute of Architects, the Royal British Institute of Architects and more is this focus on activism a double edged sword. In this episode, Lance psycho who happens to be the principal of the architecture firm f9 Productions, and co host of the popular podcast inside the firm shares his take on the focus of activism in the architectural industry as we discuss this important topic between myself inexperienced Ryan Willard and Lance cycle. And with that, Here is today's episode. All right, well, what do we want to what do we want to discuss today, Lance to remember of what what the talking points were that occasion this this conversation?

Speaker 1

02:23

You know, what I've been looking at this morning, I've been on a binge, so forgive me for not remembering her name. But she said cult of design. And I thought, what does that? What does that even mean? So I started thinking of what it means from a university standpoint, because that's where it starts.

Speaker 2

02:40

Right? Yeah, so the brainwashing begins. Yeah.

Speaker 1

02:43

And so I teach. Ryan, I don't know if you know that I also teach I'll only do one course of semester. But I do teach it at CU Boulder. So I see all of the D I, I call it di e because it needs to die. The diversity, inclusion and equity on much of the opinion that Jordan Peterson is have of that stuff. So that's where I started thinking about this conversation today was okay, if there's a cult starts there. Why does it start there? I think even if the political spectrum of the university shifted, so right now it's it's in arguable that I would say less than 10% of university, professors, lecturers or anybody are right of center, politically, however, you wanted to find that. I mean, there's objective truth to that, you know, how you could do that, whatever. Let's say it flipped. And there was a bunch of right wingers run into universities, to I'm trying to be objective and a little bit of an egalitarian here and say, like, okay, they could, they would lead their own sort of cult, in a way and it because you're not going to remove the young people. I mean, at its core, it's like young people who are very malleable and are in a position and are under positions of authority from a professor a lecture, that that's where that culture starts, right. So either way, it's going to be, you know, this, this cult of, of design, if we then categorize it and put it back down into the architecture, discipline and everything like that. I remember when I was a student, obviously, it wasn't too long ago. And feeling in that, you know, getting those kinds of feelings about I mean, when you are in architecture school, I know I'm preaching to the choir here, especially with you guys. But privately audience too, is like it. It's everything for the five years. It's like all you care about and you want to and you completely immerse yourself and and good for you or me or anybody else who does it. That's where you get that 10,000 hours and that's where you become. That's where you learn design design is very difficult to teach. universities do a good part in that, but at the same time, right, like, okay, who's running the ship? What are the The objectives behind the ship. And then now we have this acronym that's playing into the whole thing. Which that's kind of the crux of the problem, in my opinion. And then it's

Enoch Sears

05:12

so let's tell me catch me up told me, you know, I purposely insulate myself from news media and I kind of stay out of that. I do. I do, like listen to some Jordan Peterson shorts every now and then on on YouTube and love a lot of what he says, What is this context of what you're talking about here with the di e and what you're seeing at the university level and some of the potential brainwashing of students?

Speaker 1

05:39

Yeah, so in society a, maybe you guys agree or disagree, but we overcorrect. We overcorrect in a lot of ways culturally, politically, even economically, we'll end up over correcting, we go too far in one direction. And then we overcorrect the other way. So I believe we're in an overcorrection. In the in the area era of wokeness. And where that came from, I think it's important to know where that came from. So there was a series of lawsuits that came out in the 80s and 90s, against some of these big corporations. I can't name I can't name them right offhand. But about like discrimination in the workforce in those kinds of institutions, whether were sexism or racism and whether they were true or not, there's got to be a probably a half truth to it, especially if they just took it by the numbers. And so then the idea the overcorrection has been since then, is this acronym, which is diversity, inclusion, and equity. And just for the sake of itself, right. So instead of us having this society where, especially in the United States where it was based on meritocracy, and we were trying to move towards that, and we were trying to just pick the best people and select the best people for the job, regardless of sex, sex, or race, or religion, or anything like that, then now we've swung back to the opposite of that. And we've said, Okay, first, the first thing we're going to look at is, is your race. And then we're going to intersect that, and that's where this idea and this term of intersectionality comes into play is, we're going to take all of it, we're going to take, for instance, we're going to take your inference, you're going to take into consideration your race, we're going to take into consideration your sex, then there's all the gender ideology, ideology coupled with that. And then we're going to however many times you can intersect those things, then the bigger victim you are, and the more you will play into the idea that we're going to make whatever institution it is more diverse because of that. So it is the opposite of a meritocracy, it is the opposite of trying to pick the best people for it. And the biggest problem I have with it is not the idea of recognizing that, let's say 50 years ago, compared to now that there were less female engineers, in the university, engineer candidates, as there are now I'm okay with that discussion. It's, but if I'm okay with that discussion, then I think the universities or any other institutions like this, if they're if they really mean what they're saying, in terms of the word diversity, and inclusion, then where are the right of center, folks included in that discussion without being shouted down, or fired, or not even hired in the first place? It's just calling the kettle black. I mean, that's, that's where it's at, for me, and that's my problem with it. And then the people who we've been accused, on our show multiple times before, gotten some strange emails from folks. For instance, there was this, this lady out of Canada who wants to email Alex, and I'll never forget it. Because he was just blown away by the email. The email came to us and she said, she goes, I was really excited when I first found your podcast. But then I went to your firm's website, and I saw that you were mostly male. And I think we were completely male at that point. It should have been like four or five years ago when he first started. And she said, I was really excited about your podcast, because you guys told the story from the beginning, and you just laid it bare and like for people that like me are starting up the business. It's very important to hear how you guys did it and what we could learn from you and all those things. But I was so disappointed that there were no women in it. And so owl being the owl, the kind of guy he does, he goes, he first he was shocked, obviously and then he goes like, Who is this? And went looked up their website. Who do you think she had hired? All females? So I'm okay with I'm okay with that discussion coming towards me. But I think there's a lot of people shouting on the other side that don't even realize the same things that they're accusing me of doing, whether it's true or not, and I hire by meritocracy for the record, I want to I want the best people, why wouldn't I want the best people? So there's been those kinds of interactions too. And we're where that's that's the problem. Like, it's not, it's not true that they really want this diversity, inclusion and equity is a whole different discussion, right? Because what does that even mean? I've been on many shows, with in the architecture community on some of the high profile show just like this, not your guys's but a different one. And I have point blank asked a commitment people that are all about this kind of committee. What does equity mean to you? Like, tell me what it actually means to you? Because, and I wish more people would push back on it. Because if we don't, if we don't make them define it, they're just gonna take it like, equity, by definition is capital or property? So what do you really mean by taking that equity from one place and putting it to another? Like, let's just take the mask off already?

Enoch Sears

10:58

Hmm. Certainly, certainly dialed into a big conversation that's happening here in the in in, shall we say in? Well, here's the here's what's interesting, I'm gonna bring us something else here. Like this is a dialogue that's happening in generally developed nations. Right? And it seems like these conversations start it almost, here's the Unix philosophy, this is Enix personal opinion, it seems like when human beings get to a certain level of comfort, we start to look for areas in which we can experience some opposition. Okay, I just know from my personal experience, so I lived in Honduras, Central America for two years. And I never saw literally, I can probably count on that my mom, my hands and my toes, how many how many Caucasians I saw when I was living down there. She's going imagine Honduras is very homogenous place. Great country, great place to live, also one of the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere. At the time, it was the second poorest nation, the western hemisphere. And let me tell you, I guarantee no one in Honduras is worried about diversity, equity and inclusion. No one, right, they're not worried about racism. They're not worried about any of that. However, what I did find is that there's a lot of racism down there. Unfortunately, it's not a good thing. But there's a lot of racism, you know, and, and so, it part of me wants to think like, when we look at this conversation, pushing a lot of these, for instance, you brought up diversity, equity and diversity, inclusion and equity. Seems to be seems to be, you know, a lot of times comes from the academic circles, right? I don't see, you know, I don't see the working class people up in arms about this other than the people who get riled up about it. Feeling like feeling like they're victimized. So in any case, just a general observation, don't know where I'm going with that. But it does tie into a bigger conversation. That's something that is on my mind constantly, which is like, what do we do with the gifts with the abundance with the wealth that we have as, as a nation, particularly United States of America right now? You know, we kind of have we, for the past 150 years, we've enjoyed a leadership role in the world, in the fact that we've had a lot of the world's resources. And so what do we do with them? How do we? How do we act with this big responsibility that we've been given? And then as it rolls over to the architectural industry, talking about this idea of the cult of design? Where are we putting our focus, as, as architects, and as designers, and as thought leaders who are in developed nations that have a large majority of wealth, where we put in the conversation? And are we pushing humanity forward? Are we scumbling? Are we focused on things that are inconsequential? And what's the actual stage of the arc? Like, what is the actual state of the industry of architecture? You know, I got off a call yesterday with two architects as a matter of fact that I spoke to, and one of them he had been in business for three and a half years. And, and he, you know, IID, when he came from a firm, where he was doing some pretty impressive commissions, when he went on his own. He started at the bottom was doing like a lot of residential additions and things like that, and went to a decent sized project. But I asked him, you know, we were just having a conversation about the challenges he's experienced in his firm. It was really sad, because he got to a point where he was, he said, you know, he's honestly I'm, I'm honestly thinking about throwing in the towel. I don't know if this is worth doing this anymore. You know, and I said, Well, why is that? He says, Well, the cash flow is very inconsistent. I have to work it feels like I'm working all the time. And even when I'm not working, it feels like I'm thinking about the business all the time, because there's so many loose pieces and things. I don't have enough money to hire anyone. I'm scared to take that next step because I don't have confidence in the work coming in in the future. is like not only that, but my own personal income has been very spotty, haven't so it's just depressing to look at it, you know? And I said I said, Well, what what has your, what is your income, then he's like, Well, I barely barely broke $50,000. And mind you this this, this, this architect is in a is in an area that is a resort area not too far from where you're at Lance, where there's a lot of money, there's a lot of vacation homes like he's literally sitting in the lap of abundance of like opportunity. And as I talk with him and just try to have an open conversation and an understanding conversation, because I feel for him, like I really do. You know, I've been there with different businesses that I've had, where I feel like it's not going to work out and feel like, you know, I should throw in the towel. But what I could tell is that he had some very distinct mindsets about money and the role of money and the role of business that were completely sabotaging and getting in the way. And so the question I was asking in my head, I didn't ask him directly, but I think I may in the future is like, why don't you value what you do? Why don't you think you deserve to be paid. Because at the end of the day, it goes back to this victim conversation, we can say that it's the world that's causing me not to be able to earn enough money in the world that's causing me to have to work. It's a state of architecture that have to work so much architects aren't appreciated. You know, we're just undervalue. Now all that may be true. However, what role do we have in the matter? And does it matter whether we say that we're the victim of the external circumstances, or whether we start to take accountability? And we start to say, Okay, the reason why my income is not $250,000 $500,000 is because I have not learned the skill sets, the mindsets and the abilities to bring in $500,000. Yeah, right. And so but just the story that I hear, and another woman who I talked to her, so it was the same thing, it was the same thing, I was just like, she's just the both of them, they're these broke art lovers, they're completely broke. You know, they look frazzled, they look tired. And they're, you know, they're struggling having joy for the profession, just because

Speaker 2

16:57

so this, this, this is, you know, we we've spoken about this a number of a number of times, and they're, it's very similar sort of thing in the UK. And there's a lot of activism in architecture, I feel sometimes. And I'm not against it, I just feel like it's a distraction from getting good at business and making money and having agency to do about to do something, you know, to be able to make a change, if that's what if that's what's important for you. And it starts at university, and we have universities that very good at, you know, kind of getting students to be very articulate and thoughtful about designing with all sorts of imagined constraints from from, you know, physical, environmental, scientific, political even. But yet, they never take up the challenge of trying to speculate about money or where the finances coming from, from a project. And actually, University is a great place to start thinking about all of that stuff, because you're not putting any of your money at risk. But it's not a conversation that hat that happens. And so, but then there were lots of other conversations. And you know, a lot of activism starts to happen at university. And these sorts of topics start to become much more the at the forefront of generations of architects. And then when the we come out into the professional world, there is this commercial fluency, which is missing. And then architects don't get a chance to sit at the table and make any conversations and all the conversations that architecture architects are dealing with, but you know, the diversity, inclusion, equity, these are societal issues. These are big, broad, massive topics, not that you shouldn't necessarily talk about them. But there's, there's a, there's a question of like, get your own shit together first. Like we need to be able to run a run a successful run a business, which is able to pay people properly. We need to be able to learn about the commercial intent we need to be I mean, there's there's so many conversations that we've ended up happening where, where there's a lot of people architects serving clients, who they actively dislike, this is bizarre. This is a this is a insane situation.

Enoch Sears

19:24

Go on to that. A little bit more Ryan, like this is this is

Speaker 2

19:29

so so so a client in some cases, and again, the kind of philosophy of this will start at university the client is an obstacle to realizing my architectural aspiration and dreams. And then we can cloak the architectural aspiration with with a lot of virtuousness if you like, because there's it's relatively easy to do that. And then we can have a continued and persistent complaint about what the developer client is doing. thinking that they're greedy. And that they're, it's kind of it can end up getting predictable. And then there's this tension that's involved, and then the, and then I'm sure clients in a way as well, they might get a little bit of a suspicion about architects, that that's what they're like, and then they might pull away. And then the architect has got now less agency to be able to influence the project. And again, they're not being able to meet a client, where they're at financially and understanding what their business agenda is. That's difficult. Now, if you're kind of trying to run a practice, and you're constantly getting, you know, you're blaming the client for not paying you properly. It's not, it doesn't it's not helpful. It doesn't work. It's not, you know, you're not going to be able to you're not going to move forward with that. So we'll we'll see it, you know, clients, architects getting upset, they don't like the developer clients, for example, they're greedy, they're capitalists, they're not interested in the city. Sure, there's a lot of evidence that might suggest, you know, that people could give to around that. But again, kind of being frustrated with them. Right? Does that help wanting to work with high net worth individuals, that's also another one that we see quite a lot of. And that will often see lots of, you know, when we've seen it before, lots of architects who are either doing pro bono work, community work, altruistic sounding work at the expense of their own business, and their own team, you're not ready, you're not in a financial situation to be doing this kind of community project. Stop. Okay, it's great, lovely, well done. But your business is not operating properly. You can't afford to do it. So there's, there's this kind of tension, if you like, and part of it, again, stems from a lack of breath within, I think, with universities, certainly not having interesting active conversations around the richness of business and around the kind of commercial fluency and intelligence that actually drives architectural form making if you like,

Speaker 1

22:18

Yeah, I did a podcast right before this one with a gentleman who he's only 18. But he came out of college, at the height of COVID. And couldn't get hired. And now he started his own business. And, you know, one of the one of the things we talked about on there was universities, he really, he was happy that I had the perspective I did and that we teach. And I said, Well, you know, to try to be give the universities a little bit of credit, I just speak about architecture, universities, design is hard to teach. I think they do a good job of teaching design, even if they're not teaching economical design. It's the process of design. It's the starting point. It's the finish point, it's going through that whole process, learning the software drawing by hand modeling, all that stuff. They do that, well. They do that well. But they obviously are not preparing people for Okay. When you get into practice, how do you deal with the planning and zoning department, the developers, the clients that are need extra attention or whatever? i This stems all the way back to the My point at the beginning of the podcast is I would just like I would just like an open discussion and the Truth to be told about it. Because if the universities were just were honest about it, and that they said, Look, we teach them design, we're good at teaching them design, we're bad at teaching them Business of Architecture, no problem. Start reaching them out to people like me, or yourselves or other people. And then people who are listening to this who are practicing architects, it a lot of this, then it comes back to you like let's not be victims about it. Take the proactive approach, reached out to the university because that's literally how I got hired. All I did was reached out to them 10 years ago and said, Hey, I've been trying to hire students. They aren't up to par. How can I help? And then they said, here's how you can help. Here's a course is this lineup with you? I'm like, this is like the actually perfect. And then now we have several employees that were former students, former TAs. And that's how kind of how the whole the whole system works. enoki talked about a couple things that I just wanted to mention. Oh, so money, and how does all this play into this? And I actually appreciate that. You remind me of like, I don't know if you know who Dave Rubin is. Dave Rubin is a political commentator. And what he does is he takes a 30 day break from any media. He goes on like sabbatical and he comes back and he always does a podcast with somebody high profile like Glenn Beck or whatever. And then they tell him all this stuff. And he's just like, it's like one of the coolest things to see on the internet. I think so. So the DEI business D is a $3.4 billion industry now. And we all know what happens and like we're all capitalist here, but you know what happens when When money gets involved with things, it can either either go really good or really bad. But this seems like there's almost no in between with that. So that's one point I wanted to bring up. And then he talked about, okay, what does all this mean? And Ryan, I think you had a good point, like, it seems like a distraction. This seems like a distraction, but like, we are being pulled into this distraction, no matter what. Because if you just go to the AIA, and you look up, dia, it's right on their webpage, right. There's a whole system dedicated to it. I'm sure they're part of this $3.4 billion industry at this point, they probably have consultants coming in to that. So a while it is a distraction. People listening could argue maybe they're screaming at the radio right now like, then just ignore guys, hey, work, it's almost impossible to ignore it. Now. I'm here to tell you like it is everywhere. It is ubiquitous. It's non ignorable, and it needs there needs to be an open discussion about it. Because if it is then a distraction. Okay. Is it distracting us from doing from from like you said, Enoch, moving humanity forward, moving architecture forward, moving the Business of Architecture forward. And it like if, if everything is what used to be, you know, we used to have these hierarchies of competence. So the most competent people, the best people, just whatever race color, creed doesn't matter, the best minds were the most desirable. And if now we flip that on its head, and now we've said, Well, now we hire based on hierarchies of victimhood. Now we hire on on hierarchies of anything but a straight white male. Are you hiring the best people for the jobs in whatever industry? Are you putting the best students in the universities? Regardless of university? I think I think probably not. So what and this is an export. So right now what we're in, we're in a, we're in a, as a whole society and all these developed nations, we are running an experiment with no scientific basis behind it. There's a scientific basis behind meritocracy, there's a scientific basis beyond IRQ competence. It's obvious, it's an objective truth. If you are the best plumber, who gets the job done the fastest, and without any leaks, regardless of your color, that's the best plumber to hire. Instead of whatever intersectional figure you want to make up in your head right now, a gay black, one armed plumber, do we hire that person first, while they do the slowest job, they have the leaks just based on that first premise, because that's what we're looking at first now. And for us, for somebody like me, by the way, who is a federally registered Native American, I have been called the N word to my face multiple times in my life, I have experienced actual racism, I grew up on a Native American reservation is somebody that like me, then the people, the person who needs to speak up and say, like, what this is, is racism. And it's not the way forward, if we're looking to make the best humanity, the best cities, the best businesses, all of those things.

Unknown Speaker

28:18

It was all right. Where we stand, right,

Speaker 2

28:22

it's interesting as well, because we kind of start looking at the equality of outcome versus the equality of opportunity, discussion. And I think most of us would be in the camp of yes, we want to have the equality of opportunity, because that's in line with a meritorious operation, if you like, where we want to be able to make sure that we've got the best, you know, a big range of people to be able to choose from, in terms of, to bow to find the best, but then when it becomes about the outcome, then there's issues there. And it starts to put things it starts to put things into a slightly different situation.

Enoch Sears

29:07

Yeah, and so looks like you're Yeah, he's pausing for dramatic effect. Okay, so. So the, you know, my understanding and I get it the, you know, actually, I had Karen Compton on the podcast a while ago to talk about Jedi was the acronym. So I think it stands for justice, equity, diversity and inclusion. And, you know, like, as, as a white male who grew up in a white middle class, lower middle class neighborhood. I mean, I don't know what it's like to grow up as an African American a person of color in the United States of America. I don't know what it's like to grow up as a woman. I don't know what it is. Right. And my understanding of these initiatives is that the people are looking at the fact that certain races are underrepresented in architecture, right? certain genders are underrepresented, and let's not go with the the The transgender stuff because that's pretty new. But just historically speaking, it seems to me that's where they're coming from. A lot. So I like to take I mean, as we all do it like to try to take a balanced view of like, okay, what are they? What are they seeing? that's causing them to want to make these changes or put this emphasis, right, because the AIA is a large it is, if you think about it is the de facto What do you call it? an advocacy organization for architects, whether we like it or not, the AIA has established themselves as the voice of the profession, right. And so wherever they focus, they have a lot of clout with wherever they focus, their energy or their messaging, or what they focus on, is going to really drive the conversation is going to have a big impact. Right. So the question is why why is the AIA? Why are they putting such a huge focus on diversity, inclusion and equity? I'm going to play completely dumb here. Pretend like I don't know the answer. And let's have a conversation about why we think this is why is this even happening?

Speaker 1

31:03

I have one question. I just have a question that I would like to ponder, well, maybe Ryan has a better reaction to that in it. And that is okay. Let's say we're just focusing on architecture, which that's what you said. They're just focusing on the architecture because they see that there, okay, 51% of the population is females. 49% is is is males in the world, in the world, okay, as a population. So if that's their metric, and they're like, Okay, well, then the architecture profession should have if that's pure, true equality, if you want percent female 49%. Male in that. Okay. What my question is, when is ever there a discussion about the following 90% of roofers, are male 93% of loggers are male 90% of veterans are male 97% of plumbers, mechanics, carpenters, firefighters, the most dangerous jobs in the world. Why don't I see a giant push in that direction? That's just a question.

Speaker 2

32:10

Well, no, I mean, that's very interesting observation. And that usually the conversation is circling around the, the kind of more what's the word white collar types of professions and the C suite level executives and the positions of power. And the decision making positions, this is where the conversation always orientates itself around, in terms of what it was say. So the question was, why, why is the AIA kind of focused so heavily on these issues at the moment, and this is becoming a massive thing that they're doing? And it's the same, it's very similar sort of thing in the UK, where the RBA is waving the banner of lots of these, these topics. And one would only assume then that that's obviously they're, they're, they're appealing to whatever their target audience is demanding. Asking for. You would think so that makes sense. Yeah, that's what that's what that's what I would, I would assert or assume

Unknown Speaker

33:21

it Yeah, well, I

Enoch Sears

33:22

think there's, there's another, there's another I'm gonna throw something to the mix here. Which is something that, that I've seen a lot which is this idea of virtuous virtue signaling. Right, virtue signaling, which is the fact that if I, if I want to be I want to be perceived as as equitable, loving, compassionate, and an enlightened thinker, which is very different than being a compassionate, loving and enlightened thinker, by the way.

Speaker 1

33:54

Right. So what it boils down to is that nobody, we're, we're the overall education and IQ of people in the developed worlds is probably at its highest level, we've had it right in the past century, like, if you look, century over century, where they're there, there's more people going to school now. So we know what I'm getting at is that people know history, even though we seem to forget it. We keep repeating, repeating or rhyming in the same mistakes. We still know the history. And so we don't want to be people who are going towards that, I think are betting that they are going to be on the right side of history. This is the way I'm looking at me. I have done bent over completely backwards to put what was formerly just by statistics per capita, people that were marginalized in these various professions, which I'm glad we addressed that it seems like it's mainly white collar. It seems like it's mainly positions of power. They don't I think generally society, people in society You do not want to be on the wrong side of history, and then you couple that with the mob effect, right? So you see people like Scott Adams who said something controversial a couple of weeks ago or yay, for artists formerly known as Kanye West. And or whoever you just keep naming names, people like that. The mob comes after him, they're canceled Dilbert is no longer literally in an American newspaper of any prominence in society, Adidas canceled everything with with EA, whether whether you believe what he's saying or not, is a controversial statement. So are we really about this idea of inclusivity and diversity? If we even if for any kind of crazy comments, maybe that they make, if you if that's your opinion of them? Or is it really boiled down to hierarchy? Again, I thought Ryan's point was maybe he wasn't even trying to make it was actually kind of spot on. And what I was what I was hoping we'll get pulled out of it is like, I pointed out the hypocrisy between an institution an institution like the ACA, focusing in on elevating formerly marginalized people per capita, in that profession. But no, but the hypocrisy on the opposite end of there's no elevating all of any, you know, the female gender, for example, or sex in these other categories that I said, the point about pointing the hypocrisy is just to point out the that fact. But really, it's about hierarchy. It's about a hierarchy of whatever is trying to be elevated in that way. Because if it was about equality, if it was about diversity, and if it was about inclusionary, then it would be across the board, we would be trying to elevate to that almost every profession was close to that 51 to 49, as we have as we can get, but since it's focused in a certain way, you got to ask that those next logical questions, and that's what leaves me frustrated at the end of the day. I'm if we, I would love to see more women in the construction industry, I am a general contractor, no problem. I have seen a handful in my whole, you know, almost 30 years of doing this. They do a great job. Whenever I see him, it's no problem. The buildings I'm sitting in, were insulated largely by a female. It's great. But I'm not seeing this across the board. Why are we picking and choosing?

Speaker 2

37:26

All they're all They're not is the first festival one? I'm don't know, within the construction industry, for example, are there not any kinds of campaigns? And this this sort of thing, trying to get more women into construction and blue collar works? Blue Collar types of positions? That doesn't exist? Or does it? The NH

Speaker 1

37:48

A, B. So it's the National Association of Homebuilders. I am a subscriber to their newsletter. And there, you know, maybe one out of five, maybe one out of six of the newsletters, they're pushing for that there's certain groups doing that. But I guess the people I'm speaking about is that, you know, you've probably heard the statistic that only 7% of Twitter users are responsible for, like 95% of the content.

Speaker 2

38:14

Yeah, so Exactly. So it's the post distribution here. Yeah.

Speaker 1

38:17

So it's these, I'm talking about these influential HyperX fourth wave, for instance, feminists, or whatever category of any other dei group you want to say. Being the loud vocal people. Seemingly I don't hear any discussion about why don't we have any more more female loggers or whatever, that that's my focus? Yep.

Speaker 2

38:43

No, and it doesn't, it doesn't provide a more rounded conversation at all. It really, it really doesn't. And again, the this idea of going back to the equality of outcome as opposed to the equality of opportunity. This is, I think, where a lot of things start to break apart when we're looking at the institution's, the RBA and the, the, the AIA. Again, it's I'm very skeptical anyway of any large institution waving any kind of Banner about anything. So when I see the banks here in the UK, having rainbow flags outside of them, and you know, kind of whatever kind of flag they've got, I'm like London law you don't care. You're just that's a that's a it's a corporate gesturing it's empty. It's completely empty is completely empty and it's an it's it which starts to you know, there's there's a big part of all of this which is a which has to do with a marketing or a trend, or populism and trying to take sides like that. And then again, my my point we'll keep coming back to with the if we're looking at the architectural institutions, that the the kind of running of successful architecture practices is the is the thing that then becomes negated?

Enoch Sears

40:12

Yeah, it's when I look, no this, here's the thing, like our Business of Architecture is found out about one premise. And the premise is this, that the key to resolving all these problems that we're talking about here is the the economic advancement of every individual. Kid, let's just take that as a basis, the beautiful thing about money is that money itself is not racist. Money itself is not prejudiced money itself. As none of that people, people that hold it, yes, indeed, indeed, cultures and corporations and everything sure you enter the human element, but this is architecture. The whole premise here is that by enabling and enriching, so to speak, the individual, when people get resources, then they're able to have a seat at the table. Right? So what I hear is like, a lot of times with advocate advocacy, what we see is we see that advocacy being the means by which people are given opportunity, right, which is certainly we've seen it happen, and there's certainly a valid way to give people opportunity, right? However, what I believe is the better way, and more powerful way is to help people develop the skills, the attitudes, the mindsets to succeed, regardless of what their color is, regardless of what their gender is, regardless of whatever. Because we're all going to have, we're all going to have external things around us trauma from our childhood, economic disasters, physical disabilities, mental breakdowns, whatever, you know, we're going to have these challenges in our life. And ultimately, what's really going to help us at the end of the day to overcome these things, is going to be the internal skill sets, mindsets, abilities that we have as people to deal with the realities of the world.

Speaker 1

42:07

Yeah. One phrase I like to use is that we're all everybody, no matter where they're at, in the planet, they're dealt, if I make an analogy, they're dealt a hand of cards, right? Some people are dealt, if they're playing poker, some people are dealt a royal flush, and they get the best hand right off the bat. And then some people are dealt a very low hand of cards, you know, a bunch of mismas, just single figures, but you're all playing, you're all playing the game. You're all playing the game. And what what I wish, what I wish I heard more from that 7% that I 7%. By the way, left or right doesn't matter like that. 7% of people making almost 100% of the noise on social media, or podcasts or whatever kind of platform that is getting out to people. If it's equal, left or right doesn't matter, I would like to hear more. And maybe I'm just the person that needs to say it is like, you need to recognize the hard of hands you're played, or that you were given. Like, that's a reality. Were you given a royal flush? Were you given the low hand? Were you given the middle hand? Whatever. Once you recognize the hand you were dealt, it's up to you. It's up to you. Just you it's all you. And yes, sir, external factors. And maybe you grew up in a rough neighborhood and all that kind of stuff. And maybe, but then it's on you to figure out, okay, I have to play my hand extremely carefully and methodically. And I've got to do it well, like, I have very little chance to play the wrong hand. In as I continue this game, I have to keep leveling up, even if it's very slowly and incrementally. And even to the people who are adults, the world flush. I know many people even in my family, my aunt, my great aunt, they were bequeath after they after their mom died, her mother in law died $60 million $60 million. Before that, they were pretty wealthy. They, you know, they were, I would say, upper middle class, but that elevated them to a different level. And this was when I was like five or six. And so they were they lived in Idaho. We live in North Dakota very far away. We saw them every once in a while. But everybody knew all of a sudden they were rich. From the US Bank in system in Idaho, and Boise. They lost it in seven years. Like this is a reality that happens over and over again. So everybody's still playing this game. It's and it almost seems like the people with the royal flushes to from what I've seen, that's one of several examples I have in my life for people coming into this insane amount of money that they've never had before. And they just, it's all gone very quickly. The people that are no no that it's like if you're listening and you're a person who thinks like yep, I got I got dealt a very low hand of cards. Okay. The other people too. I think it's very important that we are we try to become as people, just humans that are dialectical thinkers. So we place ourselves in the position of somebody else, to try to better understand yourself and vice versa. And those people with the royal flush, seems like they can lose it. It's almost like they can lose it even faster than somebody who has gotten basically nothing. Think about your advantage. Okay, I've got nothing with this little bit of hand, fine. Now, everything is up from here. Every single day is better if you play your hand, correct in that way, and I am here I am with you. In the person who has dealt a very low card at hand, graduated with a class of 20 people in a very, in a very rural place. No opportunities went to high school, no electives that I could take, as a result of somebody who even tested as a high IQ when I was young, low, B honor student barely passed, graduated with honors didn't really care, because of the lack of opportunity. Like I get you, I hear you. But you got to start looking for those little pieces of opportunity and start playing the hand, right, and it starts every single day. And it starts with discipline, it does still require hard work. It's keeping your nose clean as much as you can, and moving forward every single day but not playing the victim. It's just understanding your place, which completely relates back to Marcus Aurelius. And the idea of stoicism. stoicism is not about being quiet, it is not about just, you know not talking to your wife and your kids at dinner, it is about understanding your place in the universe. And even if you are a pawn, what happens if you move the pawn, step by step by step by step all the way across the board, you get to the end your cake, like that's chess, that's a reality of chess.

Enoch Sears

46:38

I love that. I love that. So that's a great, great analogy. I think it's so much more than that. Just the con.

Speaker 2

46:49

With it, the I think this is a conversation of being able to find alchemy with your circumstances, like whatever, like I love this kind of analogy of the hand that you're that you're dealt, and the certainly from like a coaching perspective, the idea of victimization, or becoming a victim, if you're going to, if you're going to take that on as a way of thinking, then you have to be aware of the consequences, and the loss of power that could arise from it. And that there are other ways of mentally dealing with your circumstances and interpretations. And that there is an enormous amount of freedom, if you like with the choice in how we get to interpret interpret how circumstances is occurring for us. And actually having the skill set and being able to interpret circumstances in a meaningful way, which are empowering for us, then that can lead to very different behaviors and outcomes and performance. Ultimately, and it's, it's, it's very, it's interesting, my partner, she's, she's, she's black. And we have she had a conversation with me a little while back, we've had this conversation about, you know, raising a black child, and what would be, you know, what, what kind of conversations do we want to ensure that our child is filled with and hears about, and she was, like, you know, there's there is a, there is a reality that their experience will be different to that of a white kid. Right. But that's not a bad thing. It's just a different experience. And that was very much the kind of philosophy that we were kind of coming coming to was like, but to be able to have the child to distinguish between different experiences and expect expectations, and to be prepared for their experience to be that different of their, of their peers, but not, but also not to expect it to be worse. And that actually, that, that there's just a different game that you're playing and that there is a different set of opportunities that you have that the other guys don't. And that's the and and that's the game. That's the that's the game and those are the kinds of the mental tools and the ongoing conversations that will need to happen day by day with with any person of like, okay, what is what is it? What do I have to hand what do what are the resources that I've got, what are the opportunities that I've that I've got, this is not about you know, if there's a position where it makes sense for you to be empowered to raise your voice and make a stand for something absolutely go and do that. But when we're when we're kind of starting to label or or take a stand or something and you're feeling disempowered and angry about it, and it's not helping you produce the results that you want to have in your life then okay, and then others now there's a now we can have a look at this. And there might be something to let go Again, these conversations are always nuanced. And case by case, like, if we're doing it in a coaching example on it, you know that it can land in a very uncompassionate way to tell somebody, you know, you know, you can do better, you know, that you can pull yourself up at this situation, but actually to have to have a one to one conversation to acknowledge or give space for the totality of somebody else's experience. Okay, great. And then be able to start giving tools and this is where education really should be, you know, should be doing this giving people tools to be able to unpick and dismantle, and look at and observe and inquire around their own mental framework and make choices grown up adult choices. Is my mental framework helping? Is it leading me to the path where I want to go down?

Speaker 1

50:58

Yeah, I don't have a good analogy for this. But because the opposite of this analogy, rather, I don't have a good analogy for the opposite of this reality, maybe you guys do is, I think the like a diamond. Right? A diamond is created under intense pressure and heat. So it's one of the most sought after things on the planet. Right? We spend how much of our salaries guys putting the diamond on on her finger, social marriage or marriage for all other reasons. But that and so when I when I coach people with business, and I tell them, I give that analogy, it's usually in the context of, they say, What advice do you have, you know, for somebody that's thinking about starting a business and I go, jump off the ledge and start the business, the end. And then if you have the opportunity to jump off the ledge and start the business, during a great recession, or Great Depression, perfect, perfect, you're going to be under so much intense pressure and heat. If you survive, you're going to come out of diamond 100%. So what I'm getting at is like, what is the opposite analogy for that and I've never been able to figure this out yet. Maybe it'll take me a big, big Oh, perfect is like Okay, now we're taking people and elevating them the diamonds without going through the intense pressure and heat.

Speaker 2

52:14

So I heard this story on a personal development program I did a little while years ago, and the story of a biologist who was collecting butterfly pupae. And he had this he had this putt this pupae. And he was in and he could see the butterfly wriggling around inside of it. And there was a tiny little hole like microscopic little hole that this butterfly, you know, that started to emerge in the in the pupae sack, if you like that the butterfly was trying to fight its way out of okay, so he was watching this and he thought, Alright, what if I cut that hole open to give the butterfly a little bit more space, and it will be able to come out quicker. And then I can see what what happens. So he gets his surgical blade, and he opens up the sack for that for the for the butterfly, okay, and the butterfly basically emerges very quickly, and then just lies there on the table. And he's like, fantastic. I'm going to wait for the wings to come out. And for it to fly off, and we'll see it. And he waited. And he waited, came back the next day and it was dead. And he was like, Huh, what happened? What did I do? So he goes back and he looks at the he looks at another pie sack with a tiny hole. And then he watches what the butterfly do was doing. And it took maybe three or four days for a butterfly to squeeze itself through that tiny hole. And what he asserted what he discovered was that hole had to be tiny and difficult and hard for the butterfly to get through. Because the butterfly was kind of that was how it was strengthening its wings and it's strengthening its its muscles or whatever insects have got muscles, but that that was how it was getting strong. So by the time that it emerged with that tiny hole, it had been working out for like five days. And when it emerges from the whole one, it had kind of broken the sack through itself, then its wings was strong enough to open and then it could fly off. And I think that's maybe a kind of metaphor in sort of saying the importance of the, of the of adversity if you like or being able to, you know, we don't know the meaning of circumstances, because we're not able to always see the entire breadth of perspective or the alternative.

Speaker 1

54:44

Yeah, thank you for that. Ryan. I have been I've been looking for that. And now I found it. You You're my day.

Enoch Sears

54:52

Did it. We did it. We did it. I mean, what let's let's let's face it, right system, sexism, any sort of ism based upon external characteristics is is just detrimental to society. It's detrimental to the social functioning of human beings. You know, that goes without saying, right now at the same time what the points that have been brought up today is that apathy, victimhood, entitlement, all these are also scourges that that that do not contribute necessarily to the growth of humanity. Right. So were these were these conversations of victimhood, or entitlement or entering into conversations about racism and sexism? Can we not draw a line between the two? Can we not say, okay, yeah, let's, let's address sexism, let's address racism, let's do what we can, as humanity to ensure that all human beings have as much opportunity, like you said, Lance, as much opportunity as they can have. And then let's empower them, let's give them the tools so that they can succeed so that they can thrive so that they can prosper. It's a large conversation, right? We've spent this whole entire episode talking about it, but beneath it, hopefully, what what, what we what I would like the conversation to send around is the idea that just consider for a second, that financial abundance and understanding how to use and operate with money and capital systems is a bigger part of the equation and a bigger answer and a part of the solution that we may actually give it credit for. You know, I mean, I love entrepreneurship programs that go into disadvantaged neighborhoods, and teach, teach kids that come from these families where they would I mean, I was talking with a friend of mine, actually, just the other day it was like is, his name's Fred. He is he's like six foot five. He's 65 years old, African American guy grew up in Brooklyn. And actually, I think he said, I grew up in the Bronx. But he said, he said, little, he told me what it was like living there. And I was just like, he's like, yeah, when I grew up, I grew up, I grew up in the Bronx in the 80s, is like the late 70s. In the 80s. It was a war zone. It was a war zone. He said to everyone, all my colleagues that I grew up with, they're either dead, or they're incarcerated, or they're completely dysfunctional human beings, you know? And I was like, how did you How did you escape that situation? Because now he's, he's a basketball coach at a very high end private, private school in Baltimore. So he works out as a as a basketball coach at this very wealthy, this this private school for wealthy people. And and I was asked him, I said, Fred, how did you? How did you escape such a situation when you had so surrounded by this common theme of so much destruction, so much negative patterns, so much trauma? And he said, I don't know is that had something in me, he's like, for whatever reason, I would get up every morning, and I would get up every morning, I would get up every Sunday, and I would go to church. He's like, there's just something inside of me that wanted to get up every morning and go to church, and I saw what people were doing wrong, I decide not to do it.

Speaker 1

58:09

Now. So I think it's the contrast. It's

Enoch Sears

58:13

just like that give me that give me hope for for us as humanity for human beings and the nobility of the human soul.

Speaker 1

58:21

Definitely, Yeah, same here. I think it's the contrast. So even though I crapped on Great aunt, earlier in the in the podcast, that was the contrast that I got to see, as somebody who grew up on an Indian reservation, I got this I, that's, I think part of it is understanding that whole of the world out there while you're in. For instance, if you're in like an urban ghetto, and you're in one of these food deserts, which, which is real, like they actually don't, a lot of those folks don't have, they can't just walk to a Safeway, like, like me, and go get fresh vegetables. It's a rather real circumstance. 100% redlining was a real governmental thing with you know, so that's kind of levels of systemic racism is absolutely real. I think it's, I think it's seen the opportunity to be able to see out and then also be able to hear, and then I would add technology onto the top of that one, in terms of not only is it capital, like you talked about in it, but now with the technology that is out there, and the information that's available. Everybody, most people can pretty much self teach themselves, almost anything at this point. I mean, that is a reality of the situation. And it really comes down to self discipline, again, understanding where you're centered, understanding, like where you're at, and then moving it from there and moving with things that compel you in a positive way. Like you said, Nick, even if it is, I don't know I just went to church and then that's where I saw my cut saw the contrast in life and that was the thing that's that centered me I found myself in God or anything like that, or I had this one positive friend And I just clung to them and those kinds of situations, you You're obviously up against. If you're that person, it's like, I really think my life is analogous to a lot of that as somebody, I'm the only person in my family to have a bachelor's degree and associate's degree, a master's degree, the only and one of the first ones to own multiple but actually the only one to own multiple businesses now at this one, or do any kind of real estate development and level that we have. Every day is pushing a boulder up a mountain every single day. But even before we started recording today, we're talking about you saw the snow behind me, in our in the windows in the building, I'm sitting anywhere, and I was like, I ruined my fishing day. Like, wow, I must be doing pretty good. If you've earned the you know, you get take some time off I go, yeah, it was earned to earned luxury isn't earn privilege. It took many sacrificial Sundays and Saturdays working to get there. So I just would i It's all the way back to the beginning and the end the truth. And just, if we're going to have this, if we're going to lean one way, great, let's lean the other way to at the same time, and let's just have an open discussion and recognize reality. And what is the objective truth? And what is work for millennia to get there? And it's all of those things.

Enoch Sears

01:01:17

Great, gentlemen, well, about you. I'm kind of all tucked out.

Speaker 1

01:01:20

I'm good. Brian, thank you so much for that analogy. I'm going to use that from now on that has been excellent.

Enoch Sears

01:01:25

That was a good one. Yeah, I could see. I could see the butterfly straining and when they, when they do spread their wings, it's quite amazing. And I was just just thought to end up on a note, which is just from my personal experience, because that's really all I can speak about. I was having a conversation with, with a friend of mine, wonderful lady, mentor, coach, amazing woman, spiritual leader. She's written a couple books. But anyways, she was sharing with me how she came from a traumatic childhood, her raised by a single mother, single mother was basically on drugs all the time. She was she was molested by a close family member repeatedly as a child. I mean, just horrific things that she experienced, you know. And then I started some of my experience about the what I grew up, and my mom committing suicide when I was 16. And becoming an alcoholic before that, and, and you know, what it's like just to see a parent as a child, and realize you're more you're more of an adult than they are. And you're having to take care of them. I mean, just like through, there's this trauma. And she, she looked at me, she said, You know, I was kind of I guess I was bemoaning my fate a little bit. I was like, you know, life has been hard. And you know, I've worked hard to get where I'm at. But, you know, the trauma that I've suffered, it's difficult dealing with this stuff. And she said, Well, you know what, people that are raised in less adverse circumstances, she's like, my experience has been oftentimes they might not have the incentive to dig deep and discover who they really are. And I thought, wow, that's really cool. You know, yeah, because as I'm talking to both you guys, I know that each of you have experienced your own personal journeys, your own personal challenges. You've had to dig deep, and you've had to discover like who you really are. And as you've discovered who you really are you found, I'm certain because I found the same thing. Yet your source of strength, your source of persistence, your source of determination, your source of intelligence is an inexhaustible, well, that just keeps on going. I don't think either of you could say you found the limit to your own compassion or love it Have you have you reached Have you reached the bottom of that? Well, Lance, have your own personal

Speaker 1

01:03:37

you're crazy to me is like the bigger challenges that God gives me then it's like then I there's another one right after that. I'm not it just continually blows my mind. It just continually

Enoch Sears

01:03:49

breaking out of the cocoon. Man, he's given me a lot of cocoons to work your way out of.

Speaker 1

01:03:54

Yeah, you're obviously the, you obviously are done with the tests for the most part, like that's, for me, that's a sort of some sort of comfort, where I'm like, Okay, I'm done with architectural tests. I've done with general contracting tests. But then there's the projects, and they keep getting more and more and more. And so that's where I'm at. I will say I hit a pretty big period of burnout though, and 2020 and 2021. And kind of kind of went blank. And, I mean, I would I just gave a half assed effort for the firm's in those two years. And just I fished like I literally just went up. I just obsessed with hiking and fishing and doing that. So that was probably the first time I really ever hit burnout. That's kind of my take.

Enoch Sears

01:04:43

Yeah, sometimes we need that. Well, good on you for resting and relaxing. Another another quick anecdote that I want to share. I was so I was down in I was down in Dana Point, California, which is you can imagine the very, very wealthy area. You're not going to get down there with real estate under a million dollars. And I was talking to a guy who's independently wealthy, he's run hedge fund managers. I mean, he has millions to his name, very successful guy. And we were sitting around at a little round table talk with some of the guys. And one of the guys at the table was like, has just had a real rough couple of months. So, in December, he had a, he had a blood clot in the kidney that hospitalized him on Christmas Eve, he spent it was life threatening, they couldn't figure out what it was. So he spent basically two weeks in the hospital. At the same time, he's having marriage difficulties with his wife has been married for two years, a blended family. But there's there's no sexual intimacy happening in the marriage. And he's just extremely frustrated, extremely, you know, he's like, he's just suffering as a man in this relationship, although he loves his wife. And on top of that, he had a couple of his employees quit. They poached a couple of his clients, and he decided he wants to shut down his business. So like these three life events happening, his business is being shut down. He's he's really struggling on the home front with his relationship with his wife. And, uh hum. And the other thing was the health impact of like having this kidney thing, right. So I was I was listening to him. And I just I said, I was like, ah, film, and that sounds really terrible. I mean, I'm so sorry to hear that sounds so tough, you know? And then Keith, the guy next to me who's like this really successful entrepreneur, he's like, Don't give him that is oh, man, what are you talking about? God just put a couple more plates on his on his bar there, man. He's he's building some serious muscles right now.

Unknown Speaker

01:06:25

Yeah, yeah. Threes, right,

Enoch Sears

01:06:29

came in threes, came in threes.

Speaker 2

01:06:34

TD Jakes, the TD Jakes, the pastor in the US who gives a speech and he talks about, you know, I asked God to make me powerful, and to make me strong. And he gave me and then he lists that a child starts listing out all the different challenges that you had to you had to go through.

Enoch Sears

01:06:59

What I thought was so fascinating was that the guy who was more was pretty successful. He had a very different reaction to this other man's misfortune. Whereas my reaction was one of almost probably, you know, trying to demonstrate some empathy and some compassion for situation. The guy to my right was just like, dude, Buck up, buddy, man, amazing. Count your blessings, that you've been able to have this challenge to be able to build more reps and becoming a stronger human being. And I thought, Wow, what an empowering way to look at it, as opposed to maybe some different ways that we could look at these kinds of situations. Yeah. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2

01:07:32

There's that freedom of choice. There is a freedom of choice in how we want to perceive interpret, choose the situation.

Enoch Sears

01:07:42

Agreed. Agreed. I wish I wish that was taught more and less on blaming society, or our circumstances for and complaining about where we're at.

Speaker 1

01:07:56

Yeah, that's the whole Exactly. It's, it's just about the messaging and that there's so thanks for having me on today, guys. That's that was, that's kind of it for me is like, I just want people to hear it. I just want people to hear it and know that like, there's an opposite take on the whole thing. And maybe the answer is, it seems like it is it's, maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle, right? If my views are extreme, in that in any way. Okay, fine, then I'm just countering the other extreme reviews. And then this gray area in the middle. That's life. That's how life works.

Enoch Sears

01:08:32

Well, we're super glad we could have you on Lance, it is good to hear, like you said a different a different perspective. And we're happy to entertain that conversation. So anyone else that wants to come on the podcast and enter into a lively debate or conversation and share your your viewpoint and opinion. That'll be great. And that's a wrap. Oh, yeah, one more thing. If you haven't already, head on over to iTunes and leave a review, we'd love to read your name out here on the show. And now a word from our sponsor, our cat. BIM, as we know, is very important. But it's not the only thing you need for your next project. That's why it's important that 95% of manufacturers who offer free BIM files on our cat also have another type of data for your product needs. That means that if you go to our cat.com 95% of the products with BIM also have CAD files also have a specification, as well as being able to use the patented spec wizard tool, and they also have product information to help you make the right selection for your next project. So stop going to a site with just Vim. Go check out our sponsor, our cat.com to get everything you need for your next product for free and without registering which is pretty cool. That's our cat a r c a t.com. The views expressed on the show by my guests do not represent those of the hosts and I make no representation, promise guarantee, pledge warranty, contract, bond or commitment except to help you conquer the world. Carpe Diem.

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