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Urban Indigenous Collective: For Urban Natives by Urban Natives

Amber Watkins1h 23min

Speaker 1

00:00

Amber, hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.

Speaker 2

00:53

All right. Hello everyone. Welcome to the thoughtful counselor podcast. I am Dr dasa Cree Daniel or dr d, I'm super, super excited to have two amazing people that I recently met in person at the psychedelic conference who are also just just giving life, like, we're just going to kick it off like big and bold and lead straight in and just go on vibes the whole way, um. And so I'm excited to have them here to talk about the work they're doing, but also to talk about the community they're building and just the organization that they're running. So he I'm here with Sutton King and Ariel richer, and I'm just like, super excited to have you here. I'm going to start with, like, the professional stuff first, and just have y'all jump in and introduce yourselves. And then we'll just have like normal people time, like we have had over the last few weeks. So I don't know who wants to jump in first, just like, who are you? What is most important for us to know about who you are individually, and then we'll talk about the collective.

Speaker 3

02:01

Sure, I'm happy to kick us off post. So segoli Sutton King, knocked out some gua Hawaii. Ni e Watkins, nawaki, tolota, ono ta so hello. I shared in the Oneida language that my English name is Sutton King. I shared that my name is also knocking new key, which means comes first woman. I shared that I'm Turtle Clan and I'm people at the standing stone. It's always important for me to begin my introduction in, you know, our language to really acknowledge just the ancestors. And I think what settler colonization has tried to take from us, I really am, you know, I'd say a public health advocate, a social entrepreneur, an indigenous rights activist, and that's really rooted in my afro, indigeneity. I proudly descend from both the Menominee and United Nations of Wisconsin. My father is black, my mom is Native American and Irish, and I graduated from the School of Global Public Health at NYU, and I've spent over, I'd say, a decade really advancing access to culturally tailored care for our indigenous communities through innovative and equitable approaches across healthcare, technology and philanthropy. And you know, my purpose has really been just improving indigenous health equity, really working to dismantle systemic barriers to wellness, really ensuring that we're uplifting indigenous knowledge systems and methodologies, and really looking at areas such as mental health, women's rights, drug policy reform, bioculture conservation, and, most importantly, access to culturally tailored healthcare. So my efforts have been not only around you know, just those indigenous rights which intersect with plant medicines and psychedelics, and really honoring and restoring indigenous wisdom and really ensuring that traditional ecological knowledge, also known as Tek, is really at the center of the work that we're doing. And so today I'm showing up as the co founder and executive director of the urban indigenous collective, and we can talk more about that. I want Arielle to be able to introduce herself and the incredible work that she stewards as well.

Speaker 4

04:27

Thank you, Sutton, I say this every single time we chat together. I love hearing you introduce yourself. I'm always in awe of you, even though I've been working with you the past six years like I know all this, but it's always just such an honor to share virtual space or or physical space. But I'm Arielle richer. I am afro, indigenous as well. My mom is from Trinidad and Tobago, which is little island very close to Venezuela. And she's also a. Indigenous Venezuelan. We're known as Kalina or Kalinago. And on my dad's side, he's from Canada. I was also born in Canada, and his descendancy is from so like a mixture of English and French, I know much less about that, because I just haven't really explored it as much. But he's a really cool dude. I like I mentioned I was born in Canada, I moved to the States when I was about nine. So grew up in Washington State, and moved to New York to begin my social work career as a master social worker. So I went to school in New York. I was there for about eight years, and then two years in New York or in Washington, DC. And through that time, I thought I was going to be a direct clinical social worker. I learned very quickly, no one wants me to be their therapist. I got into program evaluation and started looking at this, like mezzo and macro levels, and from this, like bigger picture, I was interested already and working within the gender based violence space. So that's been about 15 years of my career, and has really shaped how I do research, how I interact with communities, how I how I do a lot of the work that I do, a lot of my research. A lot of my work is around building culturally tailored interventions with various communities. I like to say a build, I build solutions to problems that we did not cause. So doing that CO a co creation with various communities. So I have worked with black women, indigenous communities, people who use drugs, people who've experienced sexual violence, and often there's a lot of overlap of all of those things happening at the same time. So there's a lot of identities there. But I also like to say that as indigenous people, we've always been researchers, so we wouldn't still be here if we couldn't take in information around us and learn from it and grow. So I also have this kind of side project passion to really affirm us as scientists and our knowledge, and that is very, very valid in the work that we do. I'm also the co founder, or one of the co founders and research director at Urban indigenous collective, and my final title is, I'm an assistant professor at the University of Utah. So wear lots of hats as sudden, also wears lots of hats. But really, really happy to chat about urban indigenous collective, because that is what has sustained me for several years and keeps me going.

Speaker 2

07:48

Yes, thank you so much. I just want to echo just hearing y'all talk about the work you're doing, things that kind of light your soul on fire, is exactly what keeps us going, especially in the non stop challenges we often face, right like too often, folks are like, Oh, how do you keep doing what you're doing and how you introduce yourself? Your heritage, where we come from, our ancestry, is so deeply ingrained in the fight, but also in the excitement of what we get to do every day. And so I do want to transition us directly into urban indigenous collective and just kind of hear, what is that organization doing? Like, What are y'all excited about? But also, like, how did the two forces that you are come together and, like, create this thing that's like, changing everybody's lives and all of this, like, really meaningful ways.

Speaker 3

08:43

Yeah, thank you. I think you know to be able to share how we came together to really co steward the urban indigenous collective, it's really important to provide context and just I think my personal journey, and I think Ariel can also share on her personal journey and how we arrived together six years ago, and the things we were holding and for me, you know, similar to Arielle, you know, I moved to New York when I was 18 years old, you know, and I left my community as an activist, as an organizer, and someone who was deeply impacted by the traumas I was seeing around in my community and my family, both native and black, right? And so also, similar to Ariel, I thought that I was going to become a therapist, and I thought that psychology, getting a degree in psychology, was actually going to be my key to liberation, if I can just figure out the Western methodologies of understanding how to impact all this trauma, I will have the key to fix this. All right, that did not happen. I quickly understood the impact of acculturation. I quickly understood the impact of, you know, being in a diverse college space and not having. And culturally tailored programming or education and recognizing that actually my place in that classroom was to bring the two things of my ancestors, of my nations with me, right, and really challenge the Western thought as it as it replies to mental health and well being. And so I also grew up accessing something called Indian Health Service, and so Indian Health Service is the federal agency that's tasked with providing access to free, cold, detailed health care for federally recognized Native Americans through a three prong system, whether that's through IHS, whether that's through tribal clinics, or whether that's through urban, urban Indian health programs. And so to my surprise, when I moved here at 18, someone who has a chronic health condition, I found out that the closest full Amber Tory Care Clinic was almost four hours away. And so the barrier there was tremendous, right? It was actually, it is actually on the Oneida reservation in New York. So I'm Oneida from Wisconsin. What did exist back then was a limited outreach and referral Urban Indian Health Program. Fast forward, I became the director of the Federal Urban Indian Health Program here in New York City, right? And was really excited for the opportunity to perhaps really be able to think outside of the box, to really be able to build something really rooted in community. And what I found there were many, many different challenges, one being, you know, when you are primarily accessing federal funding to support a program or an organization, you have to adhere to their definition of what a urban Indian is per The federal definition, right? This excludes indigenous peoples that are not federally recognized, right. It does support state recognized, but what about the unrecognized right? And so for me at that time, in that role, having all types of relatives come in and say, Hey, we want to be in community. We want to access services, and being able to not provide that care really broke my heart. It really didn't align with my view of what it means to decolonize public health. And I think at that that moment, and then that time frame where I'm coming through this understanding, having these challenging time, one of my mentors, who formerly was at Columbia University, was a good friend of Ariel's advisor and mentor, and they happened to, I don't know, be together and talk about having Afro indigenous mentees in their life. And they were like, what, hold on. We have to connect them. And so I'll let Ariel maybe pick up from that moment.

Speaker 4

13:02

Yes, I have such a wonderful advisor, or I still call her advisor. I have been graduated for two over two years now, but like, that's the type of bond we had. And just like Sutton said, she's like, Hey, I she knew her limits and what she could offer me. She knew she was, like, Great methodologist, like, wonderful gender based violence researcher, amazing scientist all around she's like, I am she, she knew, like, we didn't have that common background. So she said, You need to meet Sutton. And I think there was some delay in sending emails, whatever it was, I got on LinkedIn, and then I reached out, and I said, Hey, we're supposed to meet. I know we haven't connected yet, but can we please chat? And I don't remember if the first time we talked was, I think it was on the phone. And then that was Spring. By August, we had filed papers, Incorporated, developed a mission, vision, objectives, built a board, and got our first donations from Suttons mom, who funded a lot of our initial work, which was, you know, not all the funds the first year. So that was, I love telling this story, because it's so funny that I was just like, you know, I'm just gonna reach out. And we came very, very fast friends, and knew that we could work together. There was like that trust immediately, I think, you know, having shared background, gone through shared and similar struggles, even though they were in different places, and knowing that we wanted to meet the needs. Well, one meet our own needs. Like, a lot of it came out of, like, what did I need? Like, I moved to New York when I was 22 I was basically operating like an 18 year old. I had been homeschooled. I was very, very sheltered, very, very religious. So it was just a matter of, what were the things that could have made things safer for me? I. A little bit give me a little bit more support coming to this city, not knowing anybody, and what could have saved me a little bit of pain moving moving to the city, I'm very open. I'm a survivor of sexual violence, so that's something that's, you know, just part of my story, part of who I am, but also colors and flavors, how I approach building community and being in community. So then by indigenous peoples day 2019, we were out on Randalls island for the indigenous peoples day, pow wow, and me being like I was a better student than now, than I could probably ever be later in my life, knowing that. Okay, well, we gotta, we gotta do a survey. We have to figure out, like, what people want. Because, again, we have indigenous backgrounds. Our land wasn't originally, or my land wasn't originally in New York, my people don't come from there. So we're like, Okay, I'm gonna, we're gonna make a survey. We're gonna ask people what they want, how they want us to move in the space. And then I knew we I needed to have some backup paper surveys, because, you know, what if? What if the iPads don't work? What if the phone doesn't work? What if you just can't connect? I don't even know if QR codes were that popular back then, which is wild. It's only six years, but things have changed a lot, lot of technology changes. So had all these backup papers, and it's like, Oh, it's fine. We had a pop up tent, a table, and Sutton is very good at making things homey and squishy and soft. Said, all these pillows, the sitting space blankets. And I look over and there's probably five or six people sitting down with pen and paper to fill out a survey that is almost unheard of. No one wants to fill out surveys that way. But for us, we knew that was confirmation that we're moving in a good way, because people wanted to be heard, and they also had enough trust in us that what they shared with us, would be heard, would be implemented, and would be part of our growth. Now, did we know that a pandemic, pandemic was coming six less than six months later? Absolutely not. That absolutely changed how we were able to build community and shift and be online. But, you know, a lot of things had to change around that time, but those are that's that's our that's how we started. Also wanted to shout out Jared Packard, who's also one of our wonderful, amazing co founders, who was part of this, this initiative, and was on our board, and still is very, very supportive.

Speaker 3

17:36

And I'll say Jared Packard actually was my case manager when I was the director of the Urban Indian Health Program. And it was really through, you know, a lot of that experience that we went through together and realizing, and just a Kismet energy of Ariel coming into our lives we couldn't have planned, you know, a better co founder search, if you will. You know, it was straight from ancestors and creator, you know, bringing us all together. And it's a question I always get too Right? Because people who witness our community and our sisterhood and just the the solidarity we share with one another in work, in real life, they're like, how did you find each other? Like, how do I get the perfect co founder, fit, you know, fit. And I really don't know how to, you know, share with people outside of do the work yourself and get clear on your purpose. And then you will walk in your highest alignment and attract those people, those people who speak the same language, see the world in the way that you do, and care about community and the way that you do, and that's what brought us all together, is really, honestly wanting to be in service. And I don't know if Arielle, you remember, but one of the early conversations that we had was actually doing research around missing and murdered indigenous people, right? And really, you know, and that's when, really, you know, Ariel shared with me, hey, I'm a survivor. And then I was able, able to open up and say, Hey, I'm a survivor as well. I'm a survivor of trafficking. I'm very public about it. It's the way in which I've come into psychedelics and plant medicines to heal. But I, you know, I always want to share that because, you know, it's, it's more than just Ariel is more than just a colleague. To me. You know, she's really a sister in this lifetime. And I know that, you know, whatever projects that we work on, it comes with such great intention, and most importantly, it's, it's a prayer. The work that we're stewarding, it really is so I think the ancestors were conspiring a long, long time before we fell into each other's lives.

Speaker 2

19:45

Yeah, I do struck by great like, especially in these times where people are looking for solutions so far outside of themselves that they actually don't realize that they may actually already know the solution, like they may have it in their heart, like in their. Intuition, right? Like, too often, I think, especially for black and brown women, we're like, oh, you need to, like, trust the process. But we're not like that process often comes from within, and so even just that connection, right, of like, standing in your truth often looks like, can you tell people the truth about your journey, even if it's scary, even if it like has been judged before, and from that vulnerability, that's really where we make those connections, right? So not just our ancestry, but like, just the courage and bravery to lean into a possibility of something that doesn't exist, because you want to create something for yourself, right? Like, oh, I needed this service. I needed this organization. And I believe so strongly in myself and in us that by creating this people will show up and people will support it, and often, like, people just need to see that we have blind faith in ourselves and in the process, so that we can have faith in each other. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's, I don't know if it's gonna work or not, but like, for right now, this is what we're

Speaker 3

21:08

doing. Let's go, yes, absolutely. And that is the genesis of urban indigenous collective. Because what I also share publicly is I got fired from that last role, right because I did not feel in alignment with the things that I was seeing or experiencing, and where many may stay complicit for the safety of money or a resume. For me, it wasn't touching my spirit, right? And Ariel was so supportive of me in that, in that time, in that process, but really to Ariel's point, really being able to create, you know, the solutions to issues that we didn't, you know we didn't create, right? That is really what we saw, and the possibility of the urban indigenous collective to be able to create a safe space for the brilliance of our afro, indigenous minds without restriction, and to be able to really see, you know, programming in an organization that could really embody true decolonization, right? But, yeah, you know, you really have to, you know, walk in that blind faith of knowing like, this is, this is, this is making me shrink. I'm too big for this, right? Where can I go into a space that can create, you know, that that container to allow me to grow without being stifled in my gifts, right? And I'm really proud to say that, you know, together, we have all created, you know, this really awesome organization that allows, you know, indigenous peoples and allies to really be able to bring their brilliance and be witnessed in that,

Speaker 2

22:43

yeah, it makes me think, like a few months ago, I was telling someone about we're working on this project, and I was just like, I have to live in my truth and like, I would prefer for you to know Me fully and vulnerably and like, from my truth, even if this means that this work is not meant for me, right? Like, and I think it's that, like, like, too often we're like, oh, I have to make this work. Or, like, I just have to, like, grit it out. And, like, there's always, like, a time, a place and a season for everything. But like, are you so stuck staring at something that didn't work out that you don't even open your heart to the possibility of change and like, what comes next, right? So it's like, as we're moving forward, like, like, nobody wants to get fired, nobody. But at the same time, it's like, oh, I needed, like, the winds, the waters, the fire, to kick me to the curve, so that I jumped straight into this and was like, let's go right? So like, as you're like, processing the personal and the professional that often for the work we love and do is so interwoven together. Like, you're already talking about these surveys, you're talking about getting the word out. You're talking about like, bringing people in and creating an opportunity that didn't exist already. Like, tell me a little bit about the research that's kind of driving this. And like, how you've kind of incorporated that, like, very almost like academicness into this, like, heart work. Well,

Speaker 4

24:17

I think Sutton alluded to it. So our first and then I want you also to explain your connection Sutton, but you know, so our first on indigenous peoples day, that first one started our Community Health Needs Assessment. And that is a very academic word. It is pretty well known in the public health space, but really, it's just a way of assessing what are the strengths, what are the things that need to be strengthened in a community, from from their point of view, and also provided a way for people to chat about, you know, what are the most pressing needs? Of course, a lot of things really rose up high on there, but that. Has guided us for the past six years. We've just kept it continuously. We have, like, yearly analysis of it, but it has been an ongoing effort so that we can see how things have changed year to year, about needs, if we're still moving in the right direction. And one of, one of the areas that was really, really high on the list at that time, and still now is the epidemic of missing and murdered indigenous people. And I'm going to let, I'd love something for you to chat because, you know, of a lot of us have a personal connection, but this is even extra personal for you.

Speaker 3

25:38

Thank you. Arielle, yeah, you know, it's, it's as I shared, Aaron and I first connected on really wanting to do work around MMI, W and particularly in New York City. And as I shared, I'm a survivor. I'm a survivor of sex trafficking that took place here in New York City. I was saved in a sting operation, and that experience almost ended my life. And you know, for me, at that time, I was getting this degree in psychology, and still couldn't see that I was being groomed, right? I couldn't see outside of my own traumas, right? And so to be able to come out of that, with the help of psychedelics, that medicine ceremony community. I mean, it was, you know, an entire ecosystem of support that helped me be able to stand here today and speak on this. You know, outside of that experience, which is common for so many black, brown and indigenous women, we just don't talk about it, especially publicly, right? But outside of that, you know, we do have a crisis that is happening. You know, we're looking at just unprecedented rates of violence and trafficking among our indigenous women, right? And this is going under reported. And what we know is that there is this false narrative that these issues aren't happening in urban areas and that they're only happening on reservations. But we know that's not true, and it's because we're missing the data, right? And so for me, as Ariel said, This is so personal to me because I have a family member, my auntie Ingrid, Washington, watak, Latin equal woman who was a prolific indigenous rights activist organizer, did incredible work within the United Nations and globally to unite indigenous peoples. She was unfortunately kidnapped and unalived in Colombia while building a school for the UWA, alongside two other Americans. And this happened in 1999 when she was taken, right? And so, you know, this is I had never got the opportunity to meet Ingrid and and in real life, I did, when I was recently home, get to go visit her on my reservation, and thank her for all the work that she's done. But you know, this, this, this crisis is is so real, right? And the lack of data, right, the lack of media attention, you know, what we always say in this movement is that we're going missing in three places, right? We're going missing in real life, in the physical and the data and in the media, right? And so it was really incredible to one see that our community cares about this issue as much as Ariel and I do, right? Because without some one thing I always say is that we can't build programming and organization off our own assumptions, off our own individual needs, but it is always kind of like affirming when the findings and the research affirm our hypothesis are the things that we initially thought or feel individually, right, which, again, is that crisis of mmip, missing and murdered indigenous peoples. And I think it's really important for us to highlight, when we're talking about, you know, this crisis, we are talking about women, we're talking about girls, we're talking about trans, we're talking about Two Spirit right, who are the most vulnerable within our indigenous community. But we care about all, you know, indigenous people who've gone who've gone missing, and and work to, you know, bring advocacy to that. So that was one of the first things we saw in that survey, as well as the need to access culturally tailored health and wellness services and the need to be able to, you know, access a safe community center. And like Ariel said, we did not see the pandemic coming around the corner. I actually was in China in 2020, in January, I was in China studying at NYU, Shanghai. Barely got out the country. We actually received, funny enough, we received our 501 c3 IRS designation while I was. In China. I don't know if you remember that area. That was January 11, you know? And so, yeah, and so, full circle, you know that we had to slow down and continue listening. But what was so beautiful is that the first grant that we actually ever received just a $30,000 grant from the seven generation fund executive directors, Tia ora Peters, he was actually a mentee of Ingrid, right? And gave us our first grant to focus on MMI, WGT, 2s so that was a full circle moment, which I think again, really honors this importance of following that path staying true. You know to your truth? Why? What I've always been taught is your truth is good medicine, and that medicine helps heal not only yourself, but so many others when you share that truth.

Speaker 2

31:04

Yeah, something I often tell my students, right, is, is, regardless of if it's like your birth chart, if it's astrology, if it is like, just like the weather, right? Like, too often we make all of these really big decisions without any data, right? Like, we are like, we feel like it's it's gonna go well. And I'm just like, like, we live life in vibes, but like, our life vibes are actually based on data. Like, if you're having a bad day, that is actual data. Like, I just like, I'm gonna get off my data soapbox in a second. But it's like, too often, especially in black or brown communities. Folks are like, Oh, we don't need to do that because we know. And I'm just like, No, you don't know, because we're not a monolith. Like, people have very different experiences. Like, even just so simple as, like, do you have the capacity to meet the needs of a community, right? Like, that is so data driven. Like, it's one thing, to have the data and be like, we don't have enough data, so we're going to make a different decision. It's a whole nother thing to, like, not have any data and then just be like, we're going to go for it, right? And it's like, sometimes you have to start, like, yes, starts one like, don't, don't, not start because you don't have anything. But like, you can't really serve community with community, in community, without hearing from the community, and that is data, right? Like, too often we're just like, oh, well, we don't want to do stuff that's like, so westernized, and it's just like we have lived on the stories of our ancestry, as if that's not data, right? And so just even this idea of, like, how do we tap into the lived experiences of everyone around us and make sure that they know we're listening like? A survey is the simplest way to do that. But there's so much heart work. There's so much investment. There also is, like, a lot of trust in that to say, Hey, you're going to take the time to fill this out, and we're actually going to listen like, we're going to listen and we're going to do our best to like, incorporate what you said. Incorporate what you said. And that's huge. Like that, just enough is like, shows that people have a voice in places they've never had a voice before.

Speaker 3

33:11

Absolutely, the Western world calls it qualitative research. We've been telling stories since time immemorial. Okay, you know, we you call them focus groups. We call them talking circles, you know, an aerial. I mean, please speak to this. She always speaks to this in such a beautiful way about just indigenous methodologies and the Western world we're using to describe it.

Speaker 4

33:36

It is a funny so I mainly teach research methods. And there's this look people get on their face when you say, Oh, yeah. Okay, so let's talk about indigenous research methods. And they do this becomes this very mystical thing, like, oh, what could this be? I'm like, Have you ever had a conversation? Have you ever sat down and chatted with someone before that is data. I also like to push them on. Like, think about, okay, so why is written data or written stories considered more valuable than oral tradition? So these, these little things that I push them on. I don't know if they like it. I'm, I'm hoping that I'm the type of person that they're like in five years. I say, Oh, that was actually what I needed. I'm like the they call like, type B fun. That's, that's, that's what my classes are more like. Because, yes, we like, you know, I know we keep talking about plant medicine as well, if you keep doing the same thing and realizing it's not working out. Like, that's not how a people survives. Like, we take in information around us, whether that is from stories passed down to conversations we're having with people like every I try to bring it to the real personal. Every part of our day, we're rocking around. We get up, you look out, you're like, Okay, well, there's like, no clouds today. It's pretty hot. That will inform my decision of how much water. I should bring with me, but like really bringing that to that individual in that day, to think that anything can be a part of data and and I also understand that academia has, and still does, has, has had many, many things they shouldn't have done. There's been a lot of like over research with marginalized communities. There's been a lot of stealing of information, there's been a lot of unethical practices, and that has also soured the words of data and storytelling and things that we see is as as important. So I haven't found a better word for it yet, but I do like to build this bridge in between of, you know, introducing a topic and then saying, Okay, well, how would you describe it in this way? What would this make sense in, in in your life? So I actually, one of my assignments I changed was, okay, break this down and explain it to someone in your family when you're at the dinner table. How would you explain this concept? And that was also how I shape, try to shape how I share information and like, I want my grandma be able to read it like, maybe not all the methods sections. You know, maybe we won't understand what a confidence interval is, but you can understand other implications or other statements from something like that is so, so important for me, because you can have the best research ever. You can have the best outcomes if no one can pick it up and read it and understand it. It's not actually the best, and that is a big, huge problem in academia, because they have created this barrier that we are researcher, we are objective, and you are subject to us so kind, trying to change that relationship has been very hard. There's it comes up in a lot of our research efforts, and I know it's not personal. It is something that is very lived and real, and not even in that far distant history about forced sterilization, about lack of giving people treatments to things when we knew they actually were hurt. So, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of conflation, there's a lot of things happening. Because I also hold that academic title, and I'm okay being that bridge Sutton talks about, what is it you say, like bridges get walked on. So it's a very hard space to be in, but it's really, really important, because we don't have bridges. We're just going to keep getting just so much farther away from people and at this, at this big age. For me, I'm just like, it is not worth it. For me, I like, I just, I cannot. I'm like, I'm not. There's 99% of things I'm not fighting about, but that, 1% of things I fight fiercely for, and this is one of the things,

Speaker 3

37:45

and she's right. It's not easy being a bridge, right? And not a lot of people understand that bridge role. Because, yeah, why would you want to get walked on? Right? It is a very heavy role, but it is so critical those bridge role members in our community play a really vital role. And I think a lot, as Ariel, is talking about academia and just, you know, the research and these research papers and how difficult it can be for our community understand it. What's so exciting, I think, with us is that we can really see this flow of information, where we can start with the research, and we can create these academic papers, right? We have folks like Dr Richard and poxy, you know, working on these manuscripts, right? And then I can sit with it, with Delilah Ramos, a director of programs, and then our communications manager, Delphina, and we can think through, okay, how do we take this manuscript and now really culturally tailor it into bite size information, pieces of information for our community? Or how do we talk about this in this in light of this administration so we don't get flagged, but our community understands what's happening on the ground right now, right? And I think again, it's so important, because this is the way in which, you know, Ariel shares that we're disseminating information. How do we ensure that our community understands what we are learning as we are in this conversation? Right? Because we have these really meticulous feedback loops within urban indigenous collective, whether it is our indigenous LED board who've been, you know, fighting for indigenous rights for over 20 years, right? A piece, right? Or It's Our Community Advisory Board, which are made up of indigenous community champions of New York City in the tri state area, that we can sit with them and ask them about the research questions that you know, area and poxy are wanting to pose, we can get that real feedback in real time, right? And then we can sit with those reports with our missing and murdered indigenous peoples task force with survivors, and say, How does this language feel for you? Does this feel trauma informed to you, right? How would you like to really disseminate this. Information, right? And so I think again, being that bridge, it can be such a heavy, heavy, you know, a place in our society, in our community, but it is so important now more than ever that we're bridging, because the gaps seem to get wider and wider, especially in light of this administration today.

Speaker 2

40:19

Yeah, absolutely like, as you're talking something like, for people who don't like, know what we're talking about is we're talking about CBPR, or community based participatory research, right of, how do we really talk about, what does research methods look like in community, with community and that is so unique to that methodology of really centering community at its focus. Like, not just to like, Oh, I'm an academic researcher. Let me, like, do what I need to do, and then let me give you something that will benefit you. But instead say, Hey, this is a collective conversation, like, you get to have as much say as I do as the academic and As folks know, like, I'm not, I'm not ever going hard for academia. Like, that's as an academic. I'm like, that's not a hill I will die on anytime soon. But often, right, like, as someone who's also licensed as someone who supervises students and like, is in all of these spaces that really do toe this line between full colonization and how do we make sure we bring decolonization supports to our communities that need it the most. I often remind students that even on this podcast, like being an academic allows me to provide services I would not be able to provide for because of the resources I have access to, right? So it's like being a bridge is not easy, and while I am not a fan of the licensure process, I am licensed because giving like consultations, being able to work in community at a reduced or free rate comes from my academic foundation, right? So too often we're so quick to say, like, these systems are terrible, yes, and let's not forget the people who are able to leverage their privilege in these spaces to bring you services you would not have otherwise, if it wasn't for, like, the blood, sweat and tears I put into getting this degree. Like, we have to, like, Hold both things at the same time, right? So it's like, it's like, how do we for ourselves. Like, give each other grace, but also remind our communities that, like, we don't like the man, but like the man pays me every month on time, so I can be at this meeting for free. So like, let's also balance both of those. Like, let's find the balance before we throw it all out.

Speaker 3

42:40

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, this is a story I share, and I'd love to share it here on this podcast today. You know about my seventh great grandfather, Chief Oshkosh, and I always tell the story as this tale, right? Of what it means to be a bridge between two worlds when you have to adapt to the dominant cultures, you know, societal ways and infrastructure, right? And so for my grandfather, Chief Oshkosh, right? He really only understood this understanding of land stewardship, not ownership, but with the settlers stay up, so called Wisconsin coming in and pressuring us to move, you know, north to Minnesota and Michigan. We knew we wouldn't survive. He knew that that decision to to remove us would nearly eradicate us, right? And so what he had to do was really learn land ownership and how to barter and work with this settler state, and through that, was able to seed over 10 million acres so that we could remain on 235,000 acres today, right? And so we are one of the very few tribes in the United States of America that was not forced to be removed. We are still where our creation story started. Your ancestors have always been for over 10,000 years, right? So we have that connection, that ongoing connection to our forests, to those ancestral ways that have played such a pivotal role in the health and well being of our nation, and also the biodiversity of one of the most dense timber forest in the Midwest because of his traditional ecological knowledge teaching. And what they do not tell you, although you may go to Oshkosh, Wisconsin and see this beautiful bronze statue, you may go to Madison and you go and see all these beautiful portraits of this young, healthy, you know, native man. He was not that, you know, when he died. Unfortunately, it's not to tarnish his legacy. It's to really give a warning to those of us in community who are holding these bridges, is that when he died, he died in a very violent way. He died in, you know, an alcoholic brawl. He was an alcoholic. Unfortunately, that's something that my family. Mccarrys, and also he was over 400 pounds when he passed away. And so I say that not to shame, but to to bring up the impact of settler colonization, right? What these systems can do to you when you are trying to use that privilege to help your community, right? And I can't imagine what shit he probably got for seating 10 million acres, right? But how thankful we are today that this week I came back from being able to run all over that land and go sit in that water and be with my family and, you know, and listen to my grandma's stories about when she was born on that water, right? And so, you know, I think again, we do have a responsibility to leverage, you know, this privilege, like you said, that we have within these roles, but we do really have to be mindful of taking care of ourselves and of how these systems can really impact our own well being, and how do we find others like us on this podcast today who are all bridges so that we can have that safe space to be able to share with one another. How the hell do you do it? Sister, I did not gracefully.

Speaker 2

46:11

Like, often folks are like, wow, it must be so great. And I listen, I did it messy. I cried a lot. I like, I ate a Hot Pocket. Don't recommend, right? Like, we often have to do things that are not glamorous and and I, I'm grateful for you for sharing the truth and the reality, right? Like, if you take anything away from this podcast, it's like we need to speak truth to power in a way that isn't about tarnishing legacies, but actually makes us real people. Like, too often we're want to put us up on statues and be like, This person is perfect, and that is so far from the truth. Like, like, I was just at the American Psychological Association, I was talking to a student, and they're just like, Oh, what is it like to know all these famous psychologists? I'm just like, Listen, don't meet your mentors. Don't meet your idols. They're going to show you that they're actual people, and you're to realize that their research article changed your life, but they may not actually be the people you think they are. Like, just because we do really good work doesn't mean that we're not deeply flawed. Like, we do the work we do because we're deeply flawed, not because we're perfect. Like, and so, yeah, right, like that, that balance of like, not just like rest, like, rest is an act of resistance. Joy is an act of liberation. Like lean into the ways that we also support each other and ourselves, but also show up in ways that fulfill us. Like this. Work is not the only work in you don't want to embody so much anger for all the things that have been done to you that you then don't give love, joy, support into your community, right? Or you don't grieve like we don't talk enough about the grief that we carry and like how this work came to us, like we have to sacrifice ourselves in all these ways, and without community, we're not fulfilled, right? So it's like those, right? The the yin and the yang of life is so like the main thing at all times, but we want to focus only on the good stuff because we're afraid that, like the grief and the hardships will make the good things not as good. And I'm like, I would say, like leaning into the stress and the frustration and the tears is what makes the celebration so much work. Like more taste worthy, right? Like the same like to savor where you started and where you are now, through a pandemic and still be here is just as big and celebratory as the fact that, like, we also lost a lot of folks that we love and dearly care about during the pandemic. Right? Like, both things are equally true. And I think something we've kind of been alluding to a lot and talking about in and out is like, what does plant medicine look like? Where does it come in? How does it help us not just process these experiences, but, like, transition us into a healing that may have, may not have always been known to us, because it's been taken from us.

Speaker 4

49:16

Yeah, I'll say, um, oh, there's, there's so many bits I want to say around there about joy and and grief and the duality, and holding both of it and not like silencing either of them. I'm okay. So it's been almost, we're almost at our six year anniversary. So there's, there's a couple things I want to I want to chat about. We were able to celebrate last year, our fifth year anniversary, at this beautiful party down in Soho. Like, was it four or five floors? It was like there was a sub basement. I just love saying sub basement, because I'm like, wait what very New York thing, and to see, like a line of people around the block waiting to come in, having this different type of space. Celebration that incorporated music and different healing modalities. Like, we had something different on every floor. So from like, like, you know, music and DJ on the on the bottom, we had, like, traditional tattooing and Reiki, and I think we had some massage as well. So just like, a variety of different like body workers, performances up top. So lots of different things happening and that that is such like, if you look at just that one snapshot, you must think, oh, wow, everything is perfect for at UIC. They look how far they've come, they're able to figure out how to write grants and get funding and get volunteers and I, we were not paid for most years of things. And when we were, it was like, Sutton, how can we both do one job? Or we're going to do two jobs with a half, with half of a half of a salary. Because we were, we were students at the time, it was never about that, and it's not a complaint about that, but, but that one snapshot of this beautiful party also doesn't show all of the tears, the frustrations, the confusion over state policies and laws. And like, how do we, how do we do these things? And like, I can't get this one cent to figure out on the budget, so like, it's a lot of different things. And then we also have hosted many masters students as do their practicum with us. And I was, I was a PhD student at that time. So, you know, sun always says we were like, laying the bricks as we were walking those very, very true sometimes there's like, little gaps and like, sand comes through and you're like, tripping over it. But very, very happy about where we are, and now we're moving more into this, being able to set up and the infrastructure and provide direct services. Right now we have we have movie nights. We have Talking Circle, beating circle. Sometimes people come and watch sports. There's co working space. There's a lot of different things that are happening in our physical center. And I don't think we've mentioned that we were able to get it probably about a year and a half in to us existing maybe a year and a half, two years, and we're located in Midtown Manhattan, on 39th Street. We can see New York Times and the Port Authority bus terminal. And I say I did not choose to work in the thick of it. No one wants to be in Midtown. That came out of our surveys, where is accessible. We needed to make sure that there were ADA accessible elevators, that that the building could also be accessible. So a lot of these things really come into it, because otherwise, I Yeah, no one wants to go to Times Square, like that's that New Yorkers don't want to go there. We know that, but it is essential place that people can gather. So definitely wanted to share a little about, a little bit about where we're moving in that way. And then you also asked about plant medicine. That's also part of our larger inquiry into mental health and wellness, and just like overall holistic well being, Sutton gently nudged me into this space. That is an understatement. She's very proud of it a couple of years ago because I had, I had a difficult history with spirituality growing up very, very like Christian. So it was hard for me to to connect with spirituality in many ways. So then, when she was talking about her feeling that she had experienced, and then she was also a prolific, wonderful person within plant medicine and psychedelic space, going to conferences with her understanding, learning. But then me also not thinking that I was like, I don't think I really have a space here, and it came from, what am I doing here? No one's talking about this. So I think when you hear that in your mind, no one's doing this, maybe think internally, maybe I'm that someone so something, had been talking about, how do we listen with our community around plant medicine? I had been starting to understand about Biocultural Conservation, about this psychedelic industry that is just blazing full speed ahead, and, you know, still extracting from indigenous communities. So then about, oh my gosh, it was a year ago. Now, she's like, I have this idea for this research project. We need to be chatting with our community. We need to slow down, talk about what this looks like for us. What can plant medicine look like? How can we integrate that into our services? And then this the seed funding opportunity came up at the University of Utah. And of course, three days before, I was like, you know, maybe we should turn that into something. So I furiously wrote for three days, but the way that I structured it was heavy on the we're going to spend nine months community building make sure that. That we are fully partnered with UIC. So I put on more of my academic hat for this, and said, I need to learn from your expertise, Sutton, and then we need to hire a research assistant. Because I'm not physically in New York anymore, and I'm very, very aware of that and how that kind of changes my connection. Needed to hire a research assistant who could speak with their community. Like, go take people out for coffee, go sit with them and, like, talk about, how do we want this to look so this overall inquiry into what are the attitudes and beliefs around plant medicine and psychedelics and what's coming up for people. So that has manifested into two focus groups or talking circles, just that, of course, there was food there time to chat. Trying to keep 10 indigenous people all speaking for under two hours was very, very hard, but very, very rewarding. And just have been learning so much. And even in that feedback loop there, we sent them back transcripts of of what was happening to say, like, hey, is this accurate? Is this really what you wanted to say? Is this how you wanted to say it? Do these themes look correct to you? And then concurrently, we've also been doing a survey which worked with Sutton and poxy to make sure that the wording was correct. That, you know, we are using words that are going to relate to people in our community around plant medicine, psychedelics, and that is to understand, like, prior use, like, how do you feel about it? And putting that all together and starting to write that up now, which is really, really exciting, but that came out of Sutton saying, hey, we need to do this. And then me just being in the right place and actually reading my academic emails about funding opportunities, and then saying, like, hey, let's, let's turn this into something. So I think that's something that we don't see in like this CBPR or community based participatory research space, you see a paper saying, kind of the How to but it's usually just we consulted with the community. I'm like, Okay, how? How many times who did you speak to? What did that actually come up of and so, like, I didn't go into this thinking I'm going to write a grant to fund this. It was a year of work had already gone into this, with Sutton talking about this, and then the right time came. So I think that's like the biggest difference about having a connection with the community in which you're working. That was a lot, sorry,

Speaker 3

57:38

super, super helpful. And I think, you know, even kind of highlighting how we got there, and the introduction of this, you know, question to you, right? And I had come back, actually, from an experience at the uson Institute where I really started talking to Ariel about this more deeply, but even backing up from there, right, like, how did we get into this place we are today. And I think it really begins with just kind of my introduction into the psychedelic industry, which I always say I was never looking for a psychedelic. Psychedelics found me. And it really was, you know, a company that had reached out to me that really wanted me to help them really think about how they could look at, you know, alternative business methodologies and the way that they were taking psychedelics through FDA to treat, you know, different disorders and understanding the cultural and spiritual implications of some of these compounds And these and where these medicines are coming from, right? And so that experience really catapulted me into the psychedelic space when, you know, I'm advising this company, it's backed by some really huge tech, you know, billionaires, it kind of puts you on the map of this first biopharmaceutical company that's taking this step towards trying to be in, you know, right relation. I mean, again, the ability to truly be in right relation is completely based on the inner workings of a team. And there is kind of this like spectrum on how deep you can really honor the medicine. So just want to say that. But after really being what I'd say, you know, what I consider the Belly of the Beast capitalism and trying to commodify sacred medicines, I spent the last three years after that, really dedicating my my voice and my work to the indigenous medicine Conservation Fund. And what was so incredible about the indigenous medicine Conservation Fund, which is a high impact philanthropic vehicle that supports the bioculture conservation of five Keystone medicines, is that it really is decolonizing philanthropy and the way that all of the work that. That's being done and funding these 22 projects come from community based needs assessments on the ecological threat and the work that's being done in these territories, so that philanthropy isn't coming up and disrupting, because we know that money can disrupt as well, right? And so really being able to see again, these different parts of the ecosystem, whether it's in, you know, drug development, whether it's in, you know, philanthropy, right? Or well, it's looking at, really, you know, these larger conversations that are happening about our responsibility to plant medicines, right? And I think, you know, when I talk about plant medicines, I'm talking about, you know, teachings. You know, we're talking about ceremony, we're talking about language, we're talking about responsibilities, right? We're, we're not here because psychedelics is trendy, right? Like, these are a part of our ancestral ways, right? And also our people our community, are telling us what they need, right? We saw in our Community Health Needs Assessment right, over 25% of responders are using plant medicine, psychedelics, or are you are part of Native American church, 25% right? And so we're, we're responding to the safety, the belonging, the cultural practitioners that are at our center, right? We're really trying to honor that, that medicine wheel. But I think it's really important to understand that we see plant medicine as a relationship, right? It's not a product, right? And it is reciprocity, right? It's, it's protocol, it's, it's place, right? And psychedelics can be a part of that, right? But it's not the whole story, right? And so as Ariel is talking about the questions that we're asking in these focus groups, right? What are the right language? Right? Because you may get a real visceral response from a traditional, you know, healer, if you call their relative a psychedelic, because that's what plant medicine is. It's their relatives, right? And so here I got this, really, you know, deep understanding of the psychedelic industry in five years from, you know, again, the biopharmaceutical place, to going and sitting in ceremony and praying over clinics, right? And sitting and being invited into that way of life, to going to a beautiful place like usona Institute, right? And being able to see their therapy way and their campus and what they are creating in my homeland, right? We've got 11 tribes that are in Wisconsin. And all I could think about is, how do, how does my community get access to this? Right? Are they even ready to get put into this container? Right? Right? Because before any, you know, plant conversation. We, you know, we have to have a conversation. Is, is it safe for you? You know, do you have a support network, right? I think it's really important to think about just as well as just like, how we're honoring the medicines like mushrooms or pod right? And we honor the medicine by honoring the people in the ecosystems that they come from, right? And that means, you know, an area always say this. This means consent from communities, right, not just consent forms, right, like you know we are in conversation, right? Nothing about us, without us, area always says, right. And you know, my honest take around this right? Is that you know, often, you know the US Drug Regulations and the clinical, you know systems, they're colonial, they're privileged, Western evidence, right? Well, dismissing our indigenous knowledge, right, just as clear, pure anecdote evidence, right? And you know, I'm not anti science, obviously, but I am anti erasure, so I think it's really important to really name what we're fighting here with the study. And it's really to ask our community how we can show up for them, right? Creating a culturally tailored container is not just smudging a clinical room where medicine is going to be taken, right? You know, it's much deeper than that, and that's what this study is doing. That's what Ariel and I are asking. That's how Pepsi is really looking at these themes and really looking at this manuscript, right? How can we support our community? Because we know that, for example, as many Native people grew up in traditional ways. Many didn't right. My first experience with psychedelics was LSD, right? And then my relationship with plant medicine in a ceremonial way, yeah, I grew up in pow, yeah. My family lives on the rest. Yes, I grew up on and around the rest, right? But again, what? Do we need to make sure that the psychedelic ecosystem understands and our community understands before they walk into Academy clinic and are harmed?

Speaker 2

01:05:15

Yeah. I mean, often folks are asked me like, Oh, why did, like, Why did plant medicine call you? How did you get there? And for me, similar, I was just like, oh, I need my students to do better, right? Like, I need my students to know what this looks like, what this means, what what is cannabis? What does psychedelics look like right now, especially for black and brown communities, it wasn't me being like, Oh, I'm an expert in this. I was same thing, right? Like, we I was building as I was walking. Of like, I just need to make sure that you're able to meet my community in a way that is so culturally grounded that you make mistakes in the classroom and not in the counseling room, right? And so I think that too often we try to make it perfect, and often we wait too long for it to be perfect that we don't get what we need, and even just that right, like, I'm, I'm, I'm excited to read the study. I'm excited to present it to my students, and, like, make sure that they know that this exists and that it's not just from a medical model, like, it's actually from people who are within community and deeply believe in community, and are often positioning these conversations in a way that further supports their community, right? Like, always going back to the original not just the what, like, what is the academic citations or like the H score, but instead, like, how are we using this in a way that highlights the work we want to do long term,

Speaker 3

01:06:43

absolutely, and how we're decolonizing this like Renaissance. And what you're naming is really also shifting the power. And what Ariel is really stepping into is, you know that, and who designs these programs, who collects the data, right, who holds the money, right? Who defines success, right? And so we're really trying to, I think, flip that on its head right now, and that's being done through community led design that Ariel is stewarding, right? The cultural practitioners that are, you know, hosting our retreats on our land based, water based healing, right? So many people will say this, are you going to do psychedelic assisted therapy? And we're like, we are just trying to get our community to cultural, traditional healing. And that looks a myriad of ways, right? But if that's what they want, then that's what we will give them, right? But it is consent, and it's privacy over performing. And, you know, it's, it's the both end politics here, you know, and it, and I just feel so thankful that I was able to come back from that experience really seeing what's being built in Wisconsin, and say to area, here are my concerns, and this is what I would like to see. We need a study that's really looking at this and her being able to be in this privileged position as a professor and academic and say, I see some seed money. Girl, we're going to write this, and I'm gonna spend the next thank creator for sisterhood.

Speaker 4

01:08:10

Seriously, I I've been loving our back and forth of our six years of back and forth, and also this today, um, uh, community is what has really sustained me, and that is something that so many people say, but like, I didn't come into this conversation today having a great day, and I'm having a much better day right now. Just remember Amen people who support me. And I also think it's like, a big reason I got my job. They wanted people. They wanted someone who could work with indigenous communities, teach certain classes and, like, had, like, certain experience, and I wasn't going to be like, Okay, well, now I got my job, my real job, and just like, like, Okay, well, that was a thing I did. Like, UIC is so integral to it's like, not just my baby, but like, it's our, our CO stewardship. So it's so important to just like how I think about my days. So yeah, I what a what a wild ride we've had the past few I just

Speaker 3

01:09:24

wild is the word wild is the word it has been an amalgamation of tears, prayers, laughter, all the in between, you know, but I wouldn't want to be on this journey with anyone else you know, I have found my perfect co founder fit in this lifetime, and I don't know that it could ever be recreated

Speaker 2

01:09:53

as we've been talking we're, of course, getting on time, which I'm so sad about, but kind of a question that came up. Yeah, you y'all have dropped so many just amazing gems throughout this conversation that I'm just honored to be here for and grateful for. But something that popped up for me, that I wrote down as you all were talking was just a question I was thinking of, and it's also a question I've been sitting with a lot. I'm currently in Creston, Colorado, which is like Southern Colorado. It's the spiritual capital of the world. There's, it's, it's like I was thinking, like, too often I dream up how to change the world while I'm in nature, and then I write to change the world in my like downtown Denver office, because that's where the money is currently. But something I see is just like, Are you brave enough to trust in the unknown, knowing that this is where your answers, this is where the answers you're looking for are hidden, right? So it's like, too often we're like, just so deeply searching for clarity that we don't realize that, like, the clarity comes in the unknown, like jumping in being fearless, just knowing that it will all work out, even as the things that aren't meant for us fall away, and we thought that was where we're supposed to be, right? And I'm just grateful that you're sharing your story, that y'all met through a LinkedIn message and a phone call that then brought about this organization that is impacting so many others, and also like how I came to even meet both of you is through my colleague Sophia Walker, just being like, Yeah, I'm teaching psychedelics. And she's like, these are people you need to talk to, right? So even just how plant medicine brought us together, feels special to me, but also just a reminder that when I feel most alone, there are so many people out here in the world doing similar work that are fighting to change what my world looks like. Why change what their world looks like? And so if you're listening this, I feel like I'm sure remember that we're out here, we're doing this work. We may not all be in the same community, but we are in a shared, global community, and I think often that's the most important part. So one question I ask everyone is just a piece of advice, like a piece of advice you have for students. So it could be graduate students, undergraduate students, something that either helped you or something you want to pass on of if they're interested in this work or they're interested in just like staying excitement, excited. Like, what is one piece of advice you think people should know as they're listening to this right now?

Speaker 4

01:12:35

I got two bits because I don't know how to follow directions, um, um. Because it is two parts, and it's really draws from the things that I've learned over the past several years is be open to making mistakes. Because once you get into it, the it's, it really is that first step. Once you make that first step, you're like, I don't really know where I'm going. Like, Sutton is the one. Sutton's the one who really helped me expand my mind of how big I could think. And now I'm like, okay, and then we're gonna do this, this and this, but we had to be open to making mistakes and thinking really, really big. And the only way to do that, it's so the reason it's two things is only way to do that is to really lean into the people who support you, and that's what's going to sustain the scariness of of the unknown of because Sun was like, we're going to be full ambulatory care, and we're going to do this. And I was like, how right now we're just meeting on Sundays. We have zero money, probably negative money. I don't know where this is going, but I'm glad that you made that first step so that I now I'm less afraid of doing that. And I'm like, it's all going to work out. But like Sutton mentioned, there's been tears, and every time we've had tears, we don't know what we're going to do. Someone calls us and says, Hey, do you need funding to do this? I'm like, like, literally minutes later or an email comes in, so don't be afraid to make that first step and mistake. And to do that, you really gotta lean in to a good group of people. And sometimes it's small at first, and that's okay.

Speaker 3

01:14:17

Oh, that is real. The vision can be so big, and people can think you're so delusional, but you got to stay in alignment with the vision. If you know it and you feel it in your heart, keep keep following that path, because others will see in time. Just because they can't see in the beginning doesn't mean that vision isn't real, you know, and that that's my thing. I'm an Aquarius, so I'm a big picture dreamer, you know. And sometimes people are like, Son, are you okay? And I'm like, Yeah, I'm fine. I just, you know, I can't stop dreaming. But I think that, you know, what I would say is just, you. It's really important that we think about the seven generation principle, you know, and I want to remind everyone of this principle, right? And it's a Haudenosaunee principle, and it's understanding that the decisions that we make, we have to think about the impact that they will have on the world around us and in seven generations, right? And so for me, you know, as I think about plant medicines and I think about psychedelics, you know, I'm, I'm truly not interested in an industry that extracts our medicines and our stories, you know. But I am interested in the ecosystem where indigenous people lead where our communities are well resourced, you know, we're clinicians and cultural practitioners. Can co create and CO facilitate with one another. You know, we're funders. Move from this place of charity or transaction to actual reciprocity, you know. And so in seven generations from now, you know, I want students to think about what they want to see, you know, what decisions they're making and how that's going to impact the world and seven generations and reminding yourself that even if you don't see the changes that you want to see in this world and your lifetime, it does not make it less valid to commit to that purpose, that way of life or that way of thought, right? And so when I think about my grandfather, Chief oshkov, seven generations ago, I imagine sometimes he was thinking about me, you know, and he was thinking about my hundreds and hundreds of other, you know, cousins and, you know, aunties and uncles who live on the land today, and his sacrifices that he made so that On Sunday, me and my cousins could go float down that Wolf River, you know. And that's what I would leave with the students to ask themselves, you know, and to also just be so compassionate with yourself, you know. Sometimes when we're climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing up the ladder, we need to pause and look down and remember how far we have climbed, and everyone in your kinship circle holding that ladder up because you ain't on that ladder alone, and if you are on that ladder alone, then you have a bigger problem. But that's for another podcast

Unknown Speaker

01:17:36

that yes, episode

Speaker 2

01:17:37

two, um, but yes, right? Like, how do we give ourselves grace? Often, I tell my students all the time, like, you don't you don't have to be mean to yourself. Someone will be mean to you so you like, you could love yourself. There's always going to be someone else who doubts. There's always gonna be someone else who has something to say, right? Like, trust yourself, give yourself grace and really believe, believe in the possibility of you. Like, that is so huge, yeah. So as we're wrapping up, tell us, how do we support you? Where do we find you? Like, like, what do you all have going on next that we can give love to pour into whatever that may look like?

Speaker 3

01:18:16

Yes, I think for urban indigenous collective, follow us on Instagram, which is urban indigenous collective, follow us on Tiktok. It's UI collective. We're on all the social media platforms. Follow us there. You can find out all the things we're doing. Sign up for our newsletter. We send out monthly mailchimps. Let you know what's going on, programming happening at the center or even in community. Please stop by if you're in lenapehoking, so called New York City. We're open Monday through Thursday, 10 to six with beating circles, talking circles, movie nights. You know lot of programming happening in the evening, and you can follow me on social media, also just at Sutton King and yeah, Ariel, where can they find you?

Speaker 4

01:19:03

You can find me at at Ariel Barb, it's mainly pictures of cats so that interspersed with like, the ills of the world. And listen, we need it all.

Unknown Speaker

01:19:19

I'm keeping you

Unknown Speaker

01:19:21

on your toes. You do not know what's coming, literally ever.

Speaker 3

01:19:25

Where could she be? Where in the world? Will Ariel post next true story that is very true?

Unknown Speaker

01:19:31

Yes, excellent.

Speaker 2

01:19:34

I mean something you said Sutton that is really sticky is you said plant medicine has relationship and connection to a bigger story with our deep family ancestry, and more than anything, I like, I just want to end with that. I mean, Y'all said like that. The other thing I'm going to think about often, just in my own work, is we build solutions to problems we did not create. Like I. Y'all good ones, dropping nuggets of knowledge to like, if you're listening this podcast, I mean, you do have time to restart it and take some notes, I highly suggest just walking away from the space thinking about not just how you change the world right now, but like, how do you create a world that you wish you saw seven generations from now, which is huge. Yeah, I'm so grateful that y'all took the time. We've all had lots of personal, professional things going on and and we just stayed the course. The ancestors brought us together on this Tuesday. And I am beyond grateful, beyond grateful. Yeah, like they said, please follow them. Please sign up for the newsletter. Come hang out with us. It's, I mean, it's really, actually a very good time. I can attest to, my life has been significantly influenced and just full of love and support since meeting the both of you. So thank you for allowing me into your community and helping me build community in this crazy academic slash community world that we really want to see. Like I said, again, please follow them. I will have the website for urban indigenous collective in the show notes, as well as links to meet both of them on social media, whether it's cats or whatever travels will take all of it. Whenever you're listening to this, I hope you're having a fantastic day, night, or evening, whatever that may look like for you. And really, more than anything, if you feel like you're on a ladder by yourself, you have a bigger problem. So I mean, reach out. Reach out to someone. Make sure you're not doing this work by yourself. And yeah, thank you so much for listening to the thoughtful counselor podcast. But yeah, you should listen to this again, because I'm sure you missed something that will change your life. And yes, thank you so much Arielle, and thank you so much Sutton for taking the time and just like blessing me with an amazing day, even though our Marines did not sure how they how we thought they would this afternoon is ending exactly how I needed it to meet me.

Speaker 3

01:22:08

Thank you so much. Dr D, a true sister in camaraderie has formed, and I'm really glad that we all got to be in relation and can continue to water the seeds that we planted together, and that's, I think, honoring kinship, and that's what we need to lean in more more than ever. Thank you much. Wayne and Yako. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2

01:22:31

Yes, thank you for listening. I deeply have love for y'all. I love y'all so much, and I love y'all for listening. So have a wonderful night, and I will see you in the next episode.

Speaker 1

01:22:48

Thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept, as always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe. You Oh.

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