Hello and welcome to another episode of Coffee and code. I'm excited to have a very special guest on the show with me today. Athena Deimos I met Athena through XR women, which is a great community that meets every Wednesday in verb Bella. But Athena co founded big rock creative, a successful XR experience company that won the Producers Guild Award for Innovation, the ARIA award for creativity, the no proscenium award for best VR experience of 2020 and the Army's Platinum Award. I Athena is a well rounded creative and she is passionate about digital equality, ethics and ethos, and the metaverse today. I'm just so excited to have a really, really organic conversation around. You know, the metaverse this big topic. But, Athena, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?
I think you did. Actually a really great job. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I really appreciate this conversation. And I am very passionate about digital equality and ethics in the metaverse having principles and ethos, so that people really know what they're coming into, and what they're going to be involved in. My background comes from film, I have been in the entertainment industry for a very long time, I was also a live event producer for the Burning Man organization in Los Angeles. So I've been bringing people together, whether it's to create physical art, or to create Film Art, in some way, for the better part of 25 years. And that's truly my passion.
That's incredible. And can you tell us a little bit more about big rock creative?
Mm hmm. So big rock creative came into existence, tasked with creating one of the most, if not the most community driven events in the world. And that was burning man, we created BRC VR, which is the virtual Burning Man experience that won all those awards that you talked about earlier. And it was a difficult, you know, was COVID. And nobody knew what was going on and Burning Man had been canceled. And we were just looking for a way to bring the community together, and give them a place to realize the 10 principles which the 10 principles of Burning Man are our ethos, they're not commandments or tenants, they're more if you do these things, therefore, you burn. And that's what it means to burn is by doing these things, and one of which is communal effort, which is the creative collaboration that we practice. And then another one is immediacy, which is identifying and the immediate need, what is what is present. And that presence is what we like to bring into the virtual space. And it's what big rock creative specializes in.
Amazing. And I don't know if you know this, but I did attend virtual Burning Man in 2020, when all of our oldest shifted to virtual and it was such an incredible experience. I've personally never been to an in person Burning Man, although it's on my bucket list. But the virtual option made it so accessible. And I really felt like I was having a genuine connection with the people that were there. They were so kind and warm and welcoming. And the art and just the vibrancy of each environment really blew me away. So bravo to every single person that had a hand and making that happen, because I know it was no easy feat.
no easy feat at all. And we did all of it in two months. So it was a lot it was It wasn't just us building everything to it was we built a lot. We built all the foundation, all worlds, but then we taught all these artists that are used to hammer and nails, how to build in the digital space. And some of them now have jobs in the digital space and are making a living as digital artists. It's really incredible. But I have a question for you. You came to BRC VR in 2020. And I always love asking this question. What was your favorite connected experience that you had and BRC VR? Great question.
Oh, I like that. I entered one of the realms. I can't remember which realm it was, but it had like snow and I met this gentleman that creates ice sculptures.
I Swiss. Yes,
I swear I Swizz and he was so nice, he brought me into his circle and introduced me to some other people that were also there. And we just had a really good conversation and just about what's going on in the world, how we're having a good time here, and some of their experiences at previous Burning Man, and kind of comparing it to, you know, the benefits of having it virtual, but also the benefits of having it in person. But seeing that crossover coming together was really nice. And I got to see some cool pictures that he put up in the space as well from in person Burning Man event. So it was nice to see some faces with some of the veterans in the group that have been there for a while. And just having the ability to connect with people without without have been being there in the first place. I didn't want to outsider I was just I was really surprised of how you know, welcoming and kind everyone was within this space, and specifically, ice wins. Shout out if you're listening. Thank you for being so kind. And my first Burning Man experience in VR.
Yeah, I Swizz is a special ambassador, we love him dearly. And the world that he made, the next year was in 2021, was even more fantastical. And he found other people to work with him. And it was really great. To see his creativity go to the next level. Well, thank you for sharing that story. I love those stories, you know, we have a principle of radical inclusivity. And if you're going to burn if you're going to call yourself a burner, then radical inclusivity is something that you have to practice. And that gives that welcoming, that welcoming sensation that that you felt that you were radically included, that you felt like you were part of the community, even though this was your first experience. Yes,
absolutely. And one thing I want to note here for the audience, because I think this situation is a good example of how pivoting drives innovation. Now, this was held in alt space VR, which is a virtual reality platform. But am I correct in saying alt space pivoted to have a desktop version specifically for the Burning Man experience in 2020, because they wanted everyone to have access to it, regardless if you had a VR headset, is that right?
Kind of so alt space had a desktop version, but it was PC only. And then they were in the Oculus were in VR headsets. And what we said to them is for the purpose of radical inclusivity, we need your platform to work on Mac. And that's a super tall order, because all space is owned by Microsoft. So you literally just told Microsoft that they had to make their platform work on Mac in order for us to have this work for radical inclusivity. And as we were building for those two months, and teaching and working, they were deep in trying to make not just a browser version that kind of worked on Mac, but a full Mac client, so that everyone could participate equally, no matter what they had. So we had PC, Mac, and VR headsets. And they pulled it off, we launched the Mac version, or they launched the Mac version, like the day that we opened up our gates, wow, we were converting the world into because you have to upload it for the different the different ways that people are going to enter it, you have to upload it for PC, and you upload it for Android, which is basically Oculus, and then you do a Mac upload. So we had to get 200 worlds, I guess in 2020, it was 150. So we had to get 150 worlds that were already created, that were already tested and ready to go to do a Mac upload, and then test them within like two or three days of the gate opening. And then do enough beta testing of them so that when the gates opened, and the rest of our community came in on these MAC clients that they would be able to see the world. And we were pretty successful. About 70% of the world got the conversion, right and about 30% when people went in and Mac the worlds were bright pink, and they didn't, you didn't exactly get the upload, right. But it was, you know, it was a brand new thing. And it was super buggy and three, four months down the road, alt space fixed the Mac uploader, and all the worlds got uploaded and we just, you know, kept going. And now they who was super smart of them to pivot because right now I think they're the only immersive social VR platform with a Mac client.
Yeah, I think you're right. The only other one I can think of might be spatial, but I don't think they've rolled out an actual desktop client. I think it's just browser right now. Yeah, really good example of a pivoting and that innovation and it all worked out. I mean, at the very end, look at the opportunity that it created. Yeah, the artists.
And I would say probably half of the people that came in on their desktop were Mac, Oh, I bet you it was a third Mac, a third PC and a third VR headset. Now 2021 was different. Because Oculus released the Oculus two, shortly after Burning Man 2020, it was the number one gift for Christmas and 2020. And we saw a big surge over New Years, and then into all of 2021 with attendance at our events. So that Burning Man 2021, we probably had 80 to 90% in VR headsets, and the rest were on desktop. And what a lot of people would do is they would come in in their VR headset for however long they can an hour, maybe an hour and a half, and then you get tired, but you don't want the experience to stop. So then they would come back in on their desktop and continue hanging out with their friends and sharing stories and having that connected, engaged experience that we've been missing in isolation. So
yes, yeah. And it's it's crazy. I mean, the pandemic is still going. And we're all kind of figuring out what are those next steps. But I'm curious, I want to hear from you. Why is it important to advocate for digital equality, ethics and ethos in this virtual space? And why are you so passionate about it Athena?
I'm really passionate about this topic, because of Burning Man because of my experience with Burning Man. Because I have been leading discussions about the principles of Burning Man for 20 years, well, for 17 years, as long as we've had them. And it's made a noticeable difference in people's lives, physically. And now here we are in the digital age, and I'm watching people come in for the first time thinking it's a game. Life is not a game. And this is very much life. It's very much social VR is, you know, we say IRL in real life. But social VR is real life, it's virtual reality, we have digital reality, we have physical reality, and we have digital reality. But it's all a form of reality, our brain registers it just as real as you're standing in front of somebody in the physical plane. So what I am advocating for is for people to be aware that there is a human being a consciousness in that avatar. Exactly. And you need to treat people like human beings. And one of the things I advocate is I actually don't believe that we are humanity yet. I think we're still society, society being a group of Homo sapiens, humanity being a group of human beings. And what does it mean to be a human being? I think it's really simple. It means we're humane. Human is the root of humane and if you're going to be a human being, you have to be a human being. And one of the ways of being a human being is to burn to look at these principles, and do those things be radically self reliant, self expressive, radically inclusive, share communal effort, participate, it's not about being a spectator. It's not just sit and watch a movie, it's, it's being the movie, you know, be part of that experience and create. And so everything we do in big creative is to build an environment that other people can interact with and be creative within. So in that, because we're all working together to build the metaverse, which doesn't exist yet. The Metaverse bridges, the physical and the digital and all the different platforms have to be able to bridge together. And until that happens, we have a multiverse. The multiverse means that we have a whole bunch of different digital worlds and they're all individual little walled gardens. We can go from one to another, but we have to leave and then go to the next one and then leave and go to the next one. And they're not bridged. So it's not a Metaverse yet. But if we are going to build this Metaverse together, we need to see each other actually see each other's consciousness that is embodied by an avatar. Not see the cartoon character Somebody, we can do anything we want to because it's just a cartoon character, you're actually affecting someone. It's an actual person. So it's important to have that awareness. And you don't have that awareness until somebody says it to you. It's very easy to look at this cartoon character and think it's just a character in a game and I can blow him to smithereens and run him over with a car. But there's a person in there and you're, you're affecting that person. And the rules of life apply. You're not just gonna kick somebody on the sidewalk, because you can, you're gonna smile and say, Hello. So smile and say hello.
Plus one to that, and also plus one to radical inclusivity. I think it's so important as we're figuring out what that Metaverse is going to look like. And there are a lot of players that are entering the game during to get a piece of what it's going to be. And it's great that there's opportunity being created. But I'm so glad that you mentioned the reminder of there's a person in a headset, I think whenever I go into all space that has a nice little reminder of remember, there's someone in a headset. And when I go into different communities, they also reiterate that if you wouldn't do something in real life, you wouldn't do it in virtual reality or any other digital space. So it's important to remember that we have to be examples for ethics and ethos in the metaverse and also compel builders and creators to also prioritize this.
Yeah, I just sent you a link, which you're welcome to share with the audience for the 10 principles at Burning Man. Okay, it would take an hour to go through them all. And we're not going to do that. But it would be nice to share the link. And that way, if people are curious, they can read about them. And then I give talks once a month in all space about the 10 principles of Burning Man, and people can come and ask me questions. And we can talk about the crossover of how we can use these to build the metaverse together, and how they function in their physical lives as well.
No way. That's awesome. Thank you for sending that. I'll add that to the show notes here. So listeners can take a look. But I'll also link your alt space talks that way, if someone wants to dive in and hear you speak and learn a little bit more, they know where to go. Yeah, for sure. Thank you. Now moving into your advocacy work in the metaverse, what kind of considerations should builders contributors and creators make when navigating this new space or creating this new space? Let's say it's someone that is completely new to virtual reality or digital spaces? What kind of considerations should they make when they're they're creating?
Whenever someone is creating a virtual experience, they should take into consideration how are the participants, those that come into their experience going to participate with it, don't think of the people that come into your experience as an audience, because that's passive. That's not communal effort. That's not that doesn't allow them the freedom to participate, which is one of these principles. So if you create a world that's purely spectator, you're going to come in, you're going to stand there, and you're going to look at this museum. That's pretty, but it's not engaging. And if you want to have someone, remember your experience, bring other people back to see it. You want something that's engaging, you want them to interact with the space. So what is that interaction, and the interaction should be something that is uplifting, that adds something inspiring to their life? Because then that will have an impact. And if you do that, then you can measure success.
Well said, well said. And this is kind of a good segue, cuz I'm sure there's some relationship here. But can you tell us a little bit more about your time as a producer and what your biggest takeaways have been thus far?
Absolutely. So I've worked as a producer, in lots of different realms, theater and television, film and documentary and live events. I've done lots of live events. And to me as a producer, it's about putting pieces of the puzzle together. It's like weaving a web and you string something out to a connection of a person that can do a specific task, and you string out a piece of the web to another person They can do a specific task. And you figure out ways in which they can all work together efficiently. In a lot of ways, being a producer is being a community organizer, because you're producing a thing, a experience. When you're doing live events, you're producing an experience. And you're organizing all these individual people. I don't like calling them parts, you know, they're their people, and what do they excel at? And how they can they become part of the whole so that the entire project and experience is successful? So for me as a producer, my success is how can I get the most people involved, so that they're all creatively collaborating to create an experience that is engaging for participants that are participating within it? That was a mouthful?
Of Yes, yes, I agree with you there. Because whenever you enter into an experience, where it's, it's passive, it's enjoyable. But having that added layer of engagement can really make a huge difference and really make it a memorable experience. And that's why the virtual Burning Man was just so profound is because it had those levels of engagement. And those little easter eggs kind of built in, in different areas. But I'm
sorry, go ahead. And amazing, it and this happened, this is have been happening through everything that I've produced, is that I often get people that engage with the experience as a participant coming to us and saying, How can I get more involved? If you have a passive experience, somebody comes in and they see it, like, Oh, that's pretty, and they see no way of putting themselves in that experience. They have no way of tying themselves into that. They don't they don't see where they fit. And so it's like, oh, that was nice. And then they go off to do something else. Whereas because they're a participant in the experience, they're like, how do I become part of this community? So they reach out to us? And we're like, Well, how do you want to be part of this community? What skills do you have that you would like to bring into the hole, and then they tell us, and we see how they fit and then it, it becomes this. That's how the community builds. That's how Burning Man was built. It was built by people saying, I want to participate more, how can I do that?
That's pretty powerful. And I'm curious, what drives your creative inspiration, across all the things that you've done, I'm sure you've had a lot of very cool experiences that have contributed to your overall creative vision. But talk me through that a little bit more.
At the core of my being, I am a muse. I am here on this earth, to inspire creativity, and to do what it takes to facilitate the creative process. And I have found myself through everything I've done for a living and all the activities in my life and all the communities I've been a part of, they've been creatives. And what fuels me now more than anything, is how creative this space is. Literally, in our motto at Big Rock creative, is if you can hallucinate it, we can create it. I love that. But honestly, if you can illuminate it, you can create it. That's the freedom that this virtual space has. And that's what we're trying to show people that anyone can create anything. You can create whatever you want in this space, it is your world to create. You are an active participant in your own life. If you want your house to look a certain way, in the physical world. Yeah, you can get furniture and you can pay you can make it look the best that you can with what you can afford with the physical space that you have. But in the digital space. You could be on another planet. You could be floating through space, you could, whatever, whatever just, there's so many resources online, you can take YouTube classes, you can learn 3d modeling programs, there are free programs, there are all sorts of ways you can upload your worlds. You can have the house of your dreams, you can share it with your friends, you can make new friends. The world is what you make of it. We truly have this unbelievable opportunity right now. We are at that precipice of a of a new what is epoch where we can design the life that we want to live more than we've ever been able to do in human history. And we can consciously decide to design that life for all of us as humanity and live that utopian life that we've always dreamed up. I think it's absolutely possible for us to uplift and evolve from society to humanity with the tools that we have in the multiverse by building the metaverse together.
Wow, I have chills just listening to you say that. And I think one of my favorite parts of that is you are an active participant in your own life, like what a great reminder, especially with everything that's going on, and you're so right, this, this new virtual world is really democratizing access to creativity, because you don't have to go rent a studio. You don't have to go buy art supplies. Really what you want is at your fingertips, what you what you're able to create is literally available to you in a virtual space. And there are no limits. And I'm so glad that you mentioned, you know, being that active participant in your own life, because you're so right. We're designing our lives day in and day out. And this new Metaverse concept really has the ability for us to expand our consciousness into all different directions and explore what is possible. Amen. Yeah. And so, as a segue into our next question here, as the co founder of big rock creative, what are you currently working on?
We're working on really incredible worlds and projects, I can't get into specifics because of all the NDAs. We are, what I can tell you about are some really exciting things that we are creating for Burning Man in 2022. We have things that we're working on right now. All of it is for other clients and companies who have come to us to ask us to build a world for their community to gather in. And until those launch, I can't really tell you about them. But it's super exciting. And we're looking for other partners, we're looking for other community builders that are like, Hey, I have this great community. And we're global. And I want to be able to bring them together in this virtual realm. Reach out to us because that is exactly what we're doing. And we're showing you how and giving you the tools and helping build it with you this is a communal effort, no one can do this on their own. But for Burning Man 2022. The thing that I am most excited about is a project that will literally bridge the physical and the virtual realms, we are going to take BRC VR, the virtual Playa and the physical playa, and create a bridge between them so that someone can be in VR and talk to somebody on playa, and the person on Playa can talk back to them in real time.
Oh my gosh, that'd
have amazing. So think of it this way. If you can't get to the playa, but you want to connect with the burners that are there, you can go into VR into BRC VR, and go to the world that's going to be connected, we're gonna have different worlds connected at different times of the event. And you'll be right there at a screen. And there's a person standing there and you can see like you're looking through a portal, you're going to be able to see the physical playa, and they're going to be able to see the virtual appliance and you can stand face to face. Not face to Avatar. We're talking consciousness here. When we're talking about Burning Man, we're talking about consciousness. Everybody at Burning Man has goggles and masks and hat and we cover ourselves. So we're going to be consciousness to consciousness with another person across that digital divide. And that is the technology we are working on. That to me is the metaverse.
That is incredibly exciting and I cannot wait to hear more. And so I'm assuming that this Burning Man 2022 will be hybrid. Is that correct?
Yes. 2022 will be it'll happen on playa. What we're doing are part of it will be the hybridized part of it. I don't know how much more of the event itself will Mi hybrid connectivity is really difficult at Burning Man on the Black Rock Desert. So it we have to solve that problem. And as years go on, you know, we're going to do this first thing. I mean, you want a future trip, here's my future trip, I would like to go to the Black Rock Desert, Black Rock City have a pair of AR glasses on. And as I walking around, not only do I see physical beings, but I see virtual beings all walking around. Because we can only have 80,000 people on the Black Rock Desert. That's our limitation. That's public safety and environmental standards and the roads and getting people in and the egress and all that stuff. We're limited to 80,000 people, but there's like, I don't know, 10 million people, 20 million people that want to go to Burning Man. And for whatever reason they can timing, expensive visas, expensive travel, maybe they have school that's starting, like there's also have young kids at home. There's all sorts of reasons why people can't go there. Mobility and paired wheelchairs are not an easy thing to have out there. People have done it. But it's it's not easy. But you can do it in your VR headset. And How amazing would it be to be, I don't know, sitting in an art car and you look over and there's a digital being but a consciousness right there next year that you get to have an engaged and compelling conversation with and you take off your AR glasses and they're not there and you put them back on. And they're present. They're immediately present.