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Getting Middle Manager Buy-In | Otter.ai

Getting Middle Manager Buy-In

Shannon Tipton1h 7min

Shannon Tipton

00:00

I know it's Friday because of the week. It's yeah, end of the week, right? It's like, The Godfather, Monday, Tuesday, Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. Is like, yes, that that's it. Yep, that describes it. I don't know if it's because and a friend of mine were and I were just talking about this the other day, and we talked about this all the time, right? Is that how time seems to be flying? And it just seems really this year, it just seems like maybe we're all super busy, or maybe there's just so many things happening in the world right now, but things all seem to be

Shannon Tipton

00:46

it's almost July. Somehow

Shannon Tipton

00:49

I know, I know I I was putting together a strategy document for the second half of the year for a client, and I could not believe that I was actually writing the words second half of the year, like I don't remember the first half of the year, seriously, seriously, all right, so we are at the top of the hour, and as anticipated, this is a smaller group than what is normal, because we are having an off week. And, you know, people usually have our chats in their, you know, in their calendar, and this one wouldn't be in their calendar, but that's okay. I just thought, you know, rather than going three weeks, because that's what it would have been. So if we had one last week, we won't have one on the fourth we'll have one two weeks from there, then that's almost three or four weeks between us talking. And I just couldn't bear to go that long in between having conversations with you guys. And so here we are. We got a couple more people joining. Let's get everybody in. And today's topic all about the middle manager. And we all know that middle manager, man, that person could be your best friend or your biggest roadblock. And today we're going to talk about how can we manage that situation. And so for those of you who are new to our coffee chat new or maybe it's been a while, go ahead and put your Oh, I just opened up the chat box and I see new things. So zoom has changed some stuff. All right. So if you're new and haven't been here for a while, please let us know in the chat and we can give you the warm welcome that you deserve. Yeah, you need them to be your friend because you're a meal manager too? Frank, that's just, right? That's actually a really good way of looking at it. A lot of us in a learning role are that middle managers person ourselves, right? And so it's like, Hmm, what are we doing to cultivate relationships with ourselves as well as with the others around us, I think that's great way of looking at it. So again, if you are new or if you haven't been here for a while, go ahead and put your name in the chat so we can give you your well, the warm welcome you deserve. And if you all are, I see very familiar names in the list today, and as always, I want to thank everybody for showing up, being here and contributing. Oh, Spartanburg. I'm familiar with Spartanburg. It's been a minute since I've been out there. I worked for a lot of years for Denny's International. And Denny's is based out of Spartanburg, or was, I don't know if they still are, but, but, yeah, so I used to be in Spartanburg quite a bit of times. Let's see. I'm not new, but can't attend them all. Well, Carol, we're just happy to have you show up when you have the opportunity to show up. You know, we're always happy to see you still downtown Noel. You guys are getting ready for the NASCAR race down there. I'm not going this year. I didn't get my tickets in time while they were still, you know, reasonable. The only things left are, you know, the lot you need a lotto ticket in order to get them. Humid in Dallas, humid here as well, been thunderstorming and raining and all the things out here. All right, well, let's talk middle managers. And so when you think about the struggles that you have with some of your middle managers, you can go ahead and come off Mike. So for those of you who are new, I do encourage you all to come off Mike. And if you want to turn on your videos, have them on. If you don't feel comfortable, that's okay too. But like I've always said, if you feel concerned about having a bad day or hair day, or you're eating your lunch, or you're in your jammies, still, I really don't care. What we want to do is we want to see your we want to see your faces. So thank you to everybody who who does have their video on so in the chat. But what is your biggest barrier when it comes to dealing with middle manager? Because here's the thing, right? We create these, these courses, wonderful, fabulous, relevant, all the good things. We've ticked all of the boxes, and then we put the learning out there, and some you know what happens? It's somewhere out there, there's a middle manager saying, Well, that's what they say, but this is the way we do it, right? Don't worry about that. Don't worry about what's happening there. This is the way we do it here. So we know that that happens. So what are some of the other you know, issues or barriers that you're coming across with some middle managers you know that may be impacting your training programs. So

Elizabeth

05:53

you can go ahead. Shannon, yeah, is it okay? Yeah, absolutely. Kelly, I was just going to say that. I think it not that this is specific to just middle managers, but that, you know, training, or some, you know, huge program, or three hour, you know, talking head video is the solution to everything, right? You know, it we'll just make, you know, our, our, our, people will get more sales, sell more life insurance policies or annuities, or that's my background. It financial, obviously, you know, if we just do this, so do it, and that's it, right? And, you know, it's almost trying to, it's kind, I don't know how to express this clearly and delicately or politically correctly, but, you know, kind of the tail log in the dog, right? Because they're the subject matter experts in in my in that case, sales or insurance, etc, but not in necessarily the best way to support people in making more sales, right? And so, yeah, and so it's, to me, it's always been that tension in that gray area and how to balance that ambiguity of saying, you know, indirectly, subtly, maybe sometimes directly, saying, Well, you know, why do you want a three hour talking head video, right about this, right? Or, Why do you want this boring, dry, artificial um scenario, you know, to like a real live video, so to speak. But of two people that scripted, you know, not, not like an actual state insurance agent and clients, right? You know, why do we need to stage it, etcetera? Why do you think that's better, right? And so getting to kind of those core issues and priming them and helping them, even before the training request even comes in, and once it does and after it comes in, right? You have these different stages and levels and how to support the middle manager or executives whoever, how to support the sales team, and how to support L and DS, function, role, credibility, etcetera. So anyway, that's it. I'll shut up.

Shannon Tipton

08:31

You're good. But I, I would hazard to say that you are echoing a lot of feelings that everybody else is having, you know, so there's there. There were a variety of things to unpack, you know, with what you said there, you know, it's first i and i don't know you guys can chime in. Here is the lot of leadership, middle managers, etcetera. They want that three hour talking head video, because that's what they equate to school, you know. So, so they went to school, this is what school looked like, and they managed to graduate. So subsequently, that must work, you know. So I see that sort of alignment, and that's one of the intrinsic beliefs that we have to break, right, you know. So I think that that's one. And then the other part about, you know, sort of them being a subject matter expert, where they're not they. They might be a subject matter expert, but they're not trainers, right? And we had this conversation about subject matter experts about four six weeks, about three coffee chats ago, I think we had the subject matter expert conversation, which. It's so true. You know, it's you have lots of people with knowledge, be they managers or not, and then we make them subject matter experts to help us develop the training. And then they want to take over developing the training, right? So they want to be a roadblock. And so then that is a very delicate conversation to have as well, and those things, it's very real. That's very real, you know, let's see what we what have we got here?

Shannon Tipton

10:36

Right? And so, Carol, I'm reading your comments here. When it comes to managers, they expect employees to come to you fully trained, right? So, Carol, go ahead if you want to expand on that.

Carol

10:49

I just wanted to share so I am in the credit union space. So with the financial institution and as learning and development manager, the trainers that report to me, we all really work. We work for operational frontline retail staff. So that's tellers, someone's who, who's going to take a loan app, who's going to take a HELOC app, etc. So frontline retail has always been our focus, and we do have back office positions too. So we do have, for example, financial recovery. Well, if financial recovery brings in a new employee, they're only with us for two days, because we don't know what financial recovery does, and they won't. They won't help us, help them. So they want, like, their employees to come to them with, like, more core system knowledge. But it's, it's like, we know what the frontline retail needs to use the core system for. And if you don't tell us how you use it, this is going to be a vicious circle that we never get to the end of, right. Like, right. And the other thing that they tell us too is that they don't have time to to, like, train the trainer. And it's like, well, can you see what the problem is? If you're not going to make the time to do that, we're never going to be able to take over and properly train your employees. So that's always been a frustration with, you know, where I'm at, yeah? And it's like no end in sight, honestly.

Shannon Tipton

12:15

So yeah, it's a perpetual cycle, right? You know, and that, and I can go, well, that's going to keep you employed for a long time, Carol, but it's, you know, but it's frustrating too, you know, when you're stuck in that sort of a loop that's doesn't seem to have a solution, or you just keep making the same management keeps making the same bad decisions over and over again. I know,

Carol

12:40

saying, I keep saying to them, help me, help you.

Shannon Tipton

12:46

Help me. Help you. Help me. Help you. Yeah, right, yeah. And so as I go through, I'm just looking at this So Elizabeth, my own supervisor, has pulled the plug on my role as a coordinator by preventing me from making people aware of trainings that are available and free. Oh, that's sad. Why would they do that? I don't understand, you know. So there's something happening in, something happening there that makes me concerned. You know, that's I had nothing for that. I think that's, I don't usually see that. I usually see the opposite, where they want you to plug the things, especially if they are free. Yeah, you know,

Lauren

13:33

if I could add a little to that, sure, I've been in this position 18 months, and it's it started out with full access to everybody. I sent ideas for trainings to anybody and everybody. If I thought that leaders could use a little tip on leadership, I'd send it out to them. Yeah, coordinator, rather than a L and D. Course, writer, I do write a few of them, but it's different. And then if there were things that were, like, general leadership ideas and things like that, or little our courses or workshops like, like, I take a lot of them. And so I might recommend the recording to somebody, because I think it'll help them. So I've just sent those out to all staff, just you never know who might have an inkling in their mind. And then just recently, it's like, oh, you have to unsend that, because we can't send that out to people. It's like, why do you why do you not want them to know about this stuff? And and then the last meeting, it was, well, if you want to send out any of these trainings, you have to run them by me first, because I have to check the wording and make sure that they're not using forbidden language.

Shannon Tipton

14:57

Oh, that's a control issue that someone's having. Yeah. I think so, and that's what that's all about, right there. Yeah, so it didn't take long to get to the bottom of that.

Lauren

15:09

I guess maybe I'm threatening to her. I don't want her job.

Shannon Tipton

15:16

I really, really, I don't I see it every day. I don't like it. I don't want it. Um, yeah, that's what that is, somebody.

Shannon Tipton

15:26

So anyway, I thought I'd add the flavor to

Shannon Tipton

15:29

it. Yeah. Thank you for that, and and that, and there again, it's like middle management, regardless of the role, l, D, or any middle management, becoming a barrier to what it is we're trying to do. And so I don't know if anyone has any advice for Elizabeth here, but I would say I would create kind of a list, you know, a short list of, here's the things that I would suggest and who I would suggest them for, and send them over to that person. Say, Here you go, here's why I think these would be handy. Can I go ahead and send these out to people, just kind of as a tester to see what happens? Because for all you know, she may be the one who wants to be the hero. You know, it's like, well, if you don't want me to send them out, you send them out, then, you know. So I guess it depends on how much you know, credit you require, which I would understand if you're like, Hey, I'm doing this good work, and I would like people seeing me do that good work. That is fully understandable. I get that, you know, but she may be the one who wants it all. I don't know. Sounds like somebody's got bigger issues, but, um, but you're right. So I'm looking at Heather's comment here, which is, which is where I'd like to take this conversation is, you know, middle management is in a tough position. A lot of times. You know where you've got stuff coming from, everywhere. You know you got stuff coming from your boss or from leadership and from below and from the sides, depending if you've got, you know, dotted line responsibilities. So there's a lot of noise in the middle manager life. And then for us to come on in and say, Here, do this as well. It's, it's not unlike the subject matter expert conversation that we had, it's understanding that, you know, the subject matter expert doesn't work just for us. They've got other things in their day to day that they need to pay attention to. So now is the same thing with the middle managers. And one of the things that I've always advocated for is to bring the middle managers in sooner rather than later, into the development process, you know, and keep the door open. They can come in and out whenever they feel the need to come in and out of that process. But my thought has always been, if we keep them informed, then the barriers don't necessarily all go away, but it becomes an easier battle, right? Because they know what's going on. They know what that discovery process was like for the certain course that you're delivering. You even make them part of the communication process. You ask them their opinions, you put them in the review cycles, you know. So if you bring them in earlier, sometimes the defensiveness from them goes away, you know. So I would be really curious to to know what sort of techniques have you used to try to bring middle managers into the conversation, I won't say the development process, but I'll just say into the training conversation in of itself. So how are you managing that? Now,

Lauren

18:59

it's a little bit of a different take. But we are in our organization for a long time. We have a handful of instructor led, you know, classes, most of them, or many of them, are focused on leadership development, so there's not a lot for individual contributors. And then we get these employee engagement surveys and training always comes up, as you know you're not doing enough to develop us. And of course, the middle managers kind of catch that heat, but what happens in our organization is they kind of see training as a passive activity. In other words, I'm going to go find a video for you to watch. I'm going to assign it, and you go do that, and now I've done my part. So anyway, we're trained, and when you talk about trying to align the managers, in my opinion, part of it is trying to give them a solution to their problem of being accused of not supporting development, but also trying to make them look alone. Little bit like the hero, you know, to help them build trust with their teams and show that they are actively involved in developing them. So we're creating, or I'm creating and promoting and a series that we're called, we're calling leader led learnings. And there's our organization right now, like many, is kind of under budget crunches, you know? The economy is so in question. So there's not a lot of internal promotion going on, you know? And so people are frustrating, frustrated. And so our CEO has started talking about this idea of grow. It grow where you're planted, or thrive in place. So I started with a series that is a leader led learning series. And it it hits on the competencies of what does it take to really thrive where you're planted, to grow, to excel in your current position. And the leader led learning is your structured something like this, I find some content that can be self directed learning. So it can be a video, it can be an article, it can be, you know, any resource that's out there that can be delivered to them electronically. They are assigned that resource, you know, and it's around a particular competency. So right now, working as part of a team, is the module I'm working on right now. And so I've got a few short videos and some articles, but I break them up. I saw they are assigned that in a meeting, and then they are given a workbook with that where they can take notes, do some maybe introspection, whatever. And then after a few weeks, the manager actually conducts a one hour meeting where he facilitates a conversation around that content, so they actually dig into that content as a team now, and so the leader is seen, as you know, actively participating in their training.

Shannon Tipton

21:55

I love that. And then

Lauren

21:59

it depending on the content. They maybe assign an exercise or an activity. And so the the leader will assign that. They go, go away, they work on that activity, they come back for another one hour meeting. So it depends on the content, if it's, you know, individual learning one hour meeting, individual learning two one hour meetings, you know, whatever it you know the content dictates, but they also are given some additional resources at that time that they can pursue or look at. And what's nice about that is, when you look at the science of you know, like high performers, high performers are the ones that go after it, right? So they don't expect to be spoon fed their learning. And so this also helps leaders to get to see their employees from a little bit of a different perspective, who are the ones that are sincerely wanting to learn, grow and develop, that are investing in themselves, versus those that are sitting back and saying, feed me, I'm hungry. So

Shannon Tipton

23:01

yeah, that's such a great idea. That's a really good idea. And I love the thought about making the middle manager the hero they he's the hero in the story. And I think this would be, that's just great. I wrote that down. I'm going to, I'm going to thoughtfully borrow. Is that how we kind of call it? Because I'm putting together an initiative for a client of mine and for some internal programs just like this. And my thought was the same as yours, but I didn't know what to call it. Now I know what. Now I have an idea. So thank you so much for that

Lauren

23:42

well, and the nice thing is, is that I also prepare a facilitator, or what we call a discussion guide. So I give the leader some you know, ideas for questions they can ask so how they can keep the conversation focused? What are the key points, maybe, that they want to call out in the video, the leaders don't feel like they're ill equipped or going in there unarmed. And I have to tell you, the senior leadership is all over this. They're so excited, and so they're giving you know, they're also recognizing the managers that are stepping up and saying, Hey, we're going to do this with our team. So it's, it's a win all the way

Shannon Tipton

24:22

around. Yes, it is. It very much. It very much. So is a win. And one of the things here is, as I'm looking in the as I'm looking in the chat, you have a lot of support here in the chat. Is I? One of the things that I like about this is giving them a tool. And we have a tool that I sent out a while back about some a template, about a one hour meeting that is only learning focused with their people. I'll send it back out. Actually, I created a new one. So. That is a 30 minute template. So I'll, I'll send that out as well. Um, the the point here is we often throw training over the fence and we say, okay, manager, here's, here's this, uh, teamwork, you know, course, let's just put a name on something. Here's your teamwork. Course, I'm throwing it over the fence at you, and we expect you to support it. We expect you to champion it, yada yada yada, but we don't give them the tools to do so, you know, a lot of them, a lot of managers, they're great at being managers, but they're terrible at being trainers, teachers, coaches, mentors. You know, they don't know how to do that. They don't have the skill set, and giving them that opportunity with with tools like what Laura is talking about is very beneficial and and they can take authority. They could take control over it in secret. So this way, they don't have to tell you, Laura that they don't know how to do the thing, because you're already giving them a tool that's letting them to letting them to learn how to do the thing in their own time. And they don't have to admit somebody that really they have no clue where to start. So there's a couple of things there that I really love about what you're doing. I think it's very smart. Now, some of the other things here in I'm just

Lauren

26:34

uploading, just I've gotten some questions about the content. So this is a quick infographic that we put together. And again, the focus of this series is grow where you're planted. So that's based on competencies needed to grow where you're planted. And then we're going to expand it as we see needs. So the you know, but this is the first, the first blush. So I sent that out for people who are interested. Thank you. Thank you. We'll put it in the

Shannon Tipton

26:59

resources for everybody. One of the other areas that was brought up here is, could it be Elizabeth great point, could it be that middle managers don't have the autonomy and or authority, and perhaps they feel threatened with their positions? Good. Point. You know, that's, that's a, that's a really good point. So some of them, they just don't know, I think it's a matter of, they just don't know what to do. And in lieu of them not knowing what to do, with all of this new training that might be headed their way, they do nothing. Right. The passive path of least resistance is to do nothing. You know now, now you do have those managers that feel that control where they're like, it's my way, my way is better than their way, and so I'm not going to promote whatever it is, because it's not it's not what I say, it's not what I do, it's not what I believe, right? So, so there is absolutely that. And so I'm curious as to, you know, how do you bring those managers, the ones that do have control issues, or they want to keep information close to their chest and they don't want to share it out? How? What's the best way to try to, you know, crack that shell.

Shannon Tipton

28:31

What ideas do you have for that?

Andrew

28:39

I'm going to be overly simplistic here, but you know, one of the things, and I see us falling down, and I'm on a campaign that I'm losing right now to get our learning people to do this, but we need to talk about our training in terms of, you know, simple know and do, right? What are they going to know? What are they going to be able to do? And then what I've done in past lives is use that as my contract with the manager. If they are able to know and do this, will this class meet your needs? And if you know, if so, if there's pushback outside of that, it's like, well, here's what we agreed they needed to know and be able to do. So get them heavily involved in that conversation initially, when you're doing your assessment and write your learning objectives and everything points back to that. Your assessment points back to that. Everything you know and and then, typically, best case scenario and again doesn't always happen, but when somebody signs up for a course, the leader gets Okay. Here's what they're going to know be able to do at the end of this course. So those learning objectives. And then there's a follow on recommended where we, you know, encourage the managers to have a post training conversation with the people. And you know, what did you you know, did you learn? You know, what did you learn? What's one. The way you had, you know, some very simple questions about, you know, what can I expect to see now that you've been through this training? What are you going to try to apply? And how can I support you? So that's a, I know it's a pie in the sky because it doesn't always happen, but I really think if we can get get out of our trainees and really complicated ideas, because leaders roll their eyes to the back of their head when we start speaking like trainers, and just say, Okay, is it okay? If you know, your person comes and they can walk out doing this, and I can, I can commit to pointing everything in that direction, and I commit to, that's what the class is going to cover, you know, and then kind of enlist their support that way, because it just gives them some control.

Shannon Tipton

30:43

Yeah, and I love the idea, you know, I have always spoken to we need to speak to them in terms that they understand. You know, talking learning doesn't help us. It doesn't help them. Heather, Hi, Heather, where'd you go? There we go. Hi.

Heather

31:02

No, I agree with everything that it's Lori. Lori, Laura, Laura, Laura, everything that Laura is saying, and Noel's got some good follow ups on there, I think I would. I tend to have a little more leeway in some of my classes. We've got a lot of people who are, you know, very kind of casual in our, you know, field locations. And I would probably start out with, how many of you want to take vacation? They're like, yeah, I want to do a vacation. And you follow that up with, you can't take a vacation until you learn how to delegate all the things that you're doing, you have to teach people how to do the things that you're doing, so that you can take a vacation, you can get out of the office, you can stop working 14 hour days and actually be able to go home and sleep, yeah, and see your family. But we've got to learn how to delegate first. So that's what we're going to talk about in this class.

Shannon Tipton

32:02

Well, I think, well, let me stop you. I don't mean to interrupt, but I want to stop at that point, because I think that's really important. That's a really important question that you're asking, but you're asking it at the beginning of a class. What would happen if we asked those questions to the managers during the actual development process of the training to get them on board and to be bigger champions of the training programs and of themselves. That makes sense.

Heather

32:33

Yeah, so you're talking about kind of front loading it and making sure that it's it's part we've actually been working for the last couple years on, making it part of the culture, so we incorporated it in our high potential series. So the people that were training to go into those positions learn how to delegate and learn how to let go and learn how to, you know, move off. And these are the people that are getting those positions, like our next generation of leaders. So we've kind of seen a shift between what was going on a decade ago and what's going on now. And it takes patience to change culture, but it does. There's definitely been some progress. Well,

Shannon Tipton

33:19

that's good, because here's my position, my position is that we bring managers into the fold way too late, way too late, you know, and then we're shocked and and surprised that they don't want to follow the road that we have built for them when They have had no role in building that road, you know. And we can't be surprised by that, because if we put ourselves into their shoes, what would happen if we were suddenly thrown something and said, Here, do this, if you had no input in it. Now, roll this out, you know, you're going to get you're going to get resistance, you know, so bringing them in earlier in that process is going to be helpful, but it's it's helpful to those who want to be part of that process. The hard part is, what about those who do not want to be part of that process? Now? What? Now? What do we do? That's question for the group. Well, now what do we do? We got to do something. How do we handle this?

Shannon Tipton

34:41

We put on the thinking music. Soon as you lose

Speaker 4

34:49

is Shannon, can you hear me? I can Yes. I'd say yeah. Certainly some people don't want to provide. Don't want to have that control, but providing everybody with the opportunity. At various stages, wherever you can, you can do that for them, though they can decide themselves whether or not they want to provide the input and and have some control over things.

Shannon Tipton

35:12

Oh, so you are, are you suggesting, then, that we provide them like endpoints where you can participate at this level, or at this level, or at this level,

Speaker 4

35:25

could be part of it. It's really what I heard the question, what being is, is, what do you do for what do you do with folks who don't want to have any control? Was that the question?

Shannon Tipton

35:37

They don't you we want managers to be part of the development process. But what about managers who don't want to be part of the development process, and yet they're still part of the barrier between training and the people?

Speaker 4

35:49

Yeah, yeah. I just You always get some of that. I'm not sure what I could say, other than you provide them the opportunity if they want to decide not to provide the input, that's their decision with things that usually there's enough for the managers who do want to provide the input, and might persuade some of those others to see that they could actually influence things.

Shannon Tipton

36:14

I like that. I like that a lot, you know, because I think there's something to be said for peer pressure for sure, you know. So if you've got other if you've got other managers that are more than willing to jump in, and they don't necessarily have to do any work, they just have to contribute to the process. And if their peers find out that others are doing this and they're not, does that create a sense of, you know, FOMO for them, like a fear of missing out? But I need to be part of this, because my voice isn't being heard, and my my peers are doing it, so I guess I need to do it. I think there's something there with that. I think that's a good thought. Denny,

Speaker 4

36:58

I'd also say, if it's, if it's a more than a few of those managers who don't want to provide the input, even if they're given the opportunity, that could be a red flag, or there's a bigger issue. And you know, the question is, why aren't they? Is it because they don't think anything would it's a waste of their time, their input will be ignored, or whatever? You know. So as a question to me is, is it enough to think it's a cultural issue and some insight in the history of how changes and training has been developed previously, or is it just a is it a handful of a few, few individual managers who were just reluctant to do that

Shannon Tipton

37:36

true? You know, I love that observation. That's a really good observation. One is that we have to question why they don't want to be a part of it. And of course, that's a leadership issue. But you can bubble that up and say, I asked for volunteers, and consistently I see these five people volunteering, and consistently I see these two people who don't, and then, incidentally, they become a little problematic when it comes to rolling things out. So Mr. Leader, I'm going to just put this on your lap and let you deal with it, and I'm going to, you know, wash my hands of it above my pay grade, so, so to speak. But there's the information for you. And I think that's really smart. That's really smart because those are also probably managers that are impeding the culture, right? So to Heather's point and to Laura's point is those are the ones you know that ultimately are getting in the way of a slew of other things, not just learning, right? Let's see it needs to become a top down initiative? Carol, Carol asked that question. I don't think so. I think if we make it a top down initiative, then people, we run the risk of people resenting it. I think if it's a top down initiative and it's a volunteer initiative, like top down is encouraging you to do this, and maybe if you could get so one of my clients, the CEO, and the CEO, are highly involved. They have created videos, they have done they've held zoom meetings. They have been so involved with the whole shift in their learning culture in their organization that you can't help but notice. And I think that sort of voice of support really makes a big difference. So if you can get leaders throughout the organization to be talking about it, then maybe that might drive more participation, you know, as it goes down. So it's less of an initiative of telling people, Hey, we'd like you to do this. It's more of a let's walk the talk, kind of initiative that's that's my thought. I don't know if you guys have a. Any other thoughts about that

Speaker 5

40:02

Well, and that's how I took the top down comment. Is if those folks at the sea level or right below it aren't walking the talk or talking whatever, yeah, walking the talk and encouraging that learning culture, those middle managers aren't going to care, right? There on care, unless it is truly impacting their performance, their bottom line, their button, their bonuses. I Oh, most importantly, yeah, and that's something that I'm starting to see more of. Here is business unit directors within our organization are assigning managers to work on these projects as part of their own development, and it becomes that's interesting, part of their performance review for the year is, you know, we need this. We've identified this problem, and training is going to be part of it. You are going to work with Jason to develop this training, and they become one of the key stakeholders. And you also said, you know, the FOMO piece, I've started acknowledging those managers who contributed, those SMEs who contributed, and and when we announced training, or when? And, like, an end credit piece as well, and I'm getting something like, Well, you know, how did Heather get involved in this? Like, well, this doesn't apply to my people. Why aren't we taking like, well, this you want to be involved. Here's your opportunity. Just like Denny said, the door is open for everybody to give feedback. If you don't want to do it, can't complain.

Shannon Tipton

41:48

Absolutely. I love that. Love that. And I wonder, though. So Jason, um, my my trainer brain loves what you're saying. My operations brain says, Is there resentment from people who are given this task as part of a performance review?

Jason

42:14

I've not seen that yet, because it is part of resolving a problem that they've identified within their business unit. So they're looking to be, you know, we want to be more effective with this, or we see that our our engineers don't understand this piece of it, so we need to create something to help them. So they're really, they're helping improve that process so they're not gotcha, yeah, they're not like, Oh, you have to work on a time management thing. No, we don't make them do that.

Shannon Tipton

42:49

It's very cool. Maybe we should.

Jason

42:53

I was in a call yesterday and somebody asked one of our long term consultants, what's the best time management tool for our industry? And I just like, I let the consultant answer, because I was moderating the discussion and I tried and said, Really, the best time management tool is just the one that works for you. Right? To go out there and try, like, I know I engineers want to be told exactly what tool to use,

Shannon Tipton

43:25

right? That's tough. Yeah, it is tough. And I find that as well, is managers do? Many managers, not all. Many managers, work with a process mindset. You know, we've got to get from point A to point B, and I need these people and these jobs to be done in order to get that and I like what you did say about, you know, does it impact their bonus? You know, so. And I think part of this is understanding where that manager is coming from, right? And if they are, if they are process driven, then can we sell this through a process? You know? Can we talk about it as though this training is part of a process that's going to help you get from point A to point B, not something that's going to disrupt your process? If there are money driven, can we talk about it that way? So it's like, okay, this sales program, if we do it right, it's going to lead to increased commissions. It's going to lead to increased revenue or profitability. And that may, you know, impact your pocketbook, you know, your wallet. And so maybe the conversation starts that way. So I think one of the things that you're talking about there, Jason, even in the undercurrent, is really just understanding what the motivational drivers may be, you know, and I like that they're putting this as part of a performance review, not a pip, right? So we're not. Saying, you know, in order, you have to do this, or else you're gonna be fired, but this is going to help you be better leaders. I think when phrased that way, it also becomes more palatable, right? And let's see, what else have we got here

Shannon Tipton

45:22

to get some from people and managers before you even start and even yeah it you're right, it is easier said than done. Here's my advice, Noel and anybody else is I like to start with what is an innocent steering committee. Here's a steering committee, and it meets once a month, and the people rotate in and they rotate out, and what we do is we simply just talk about what's on the training docket. Here are the projects that we're working on, and I would like to get your input. Mr. Miss steering committee member, I want to get your input on where do you think we should start with this project. So this project came from, you know, leadership, and this is something we have to do. Now, what I would like from you is to tell me who in your team has the is the best storyteller who can help me with this, right? Um, what's where are the assets being held? Did you take a class like this before? If so, did it work? If not? Why not? You know. So get them involved in that conversation even before you even start doing anything. And then that can be a rotational role. That's what I like to do. Is say you don't have to feel like you've got to be in this for the full year or six months. You You can rotate in and out as you want to. Some of them, I find, really like it, and they stay in for longer. Others are like, Okay, I've done my due to I've done my two months. I'm out, but at least now they're more familiar with what we go through, and we're talking to them like they're humans and part of the process, I think that's a good way to start. And, you know, giving people that opt in type of process, and I

Jason

47:14

think giving people that opportunity to tell their story, or tell a story, right,

Shannon Tipton

47:18

right? Yeah, yeah, managers, they have those stories. They've got good stories and bad stories, and you kind of let them vent it out, you know? Well, I don't understand why we're doing this. It didn't work first time around. And blah, blah, okay, I'm here for you. I'm here for you. I'll be your therapist. All right. So now that you had that out of your system, what are we going to do? What are we going to do to make it work? Now, what are your ideas? So I've heard you, and now let's, let's fix it, and I think that's what a lot of them are looking for. Now, what other barriers seem to be popping up with managers. So we've got, you know, some of them are, you know, you've got people who are in control or want in control, or people who don't want any part of it. You got, you know, people who simply are oblivious. What are some of the other traits, I suppose, or the other behaviors from middle managers that seem to be creating barriers with getting training successfully completed, not completed, but training that's being engaged with and actually making a difference? I

Shannon Tipton

48:44

Carol,

Carol

48:47

I can't speak for everyone, but I believe in our organization, it's just we do have a retention issue. So I think that when there's when there's staffing challenges, and everyone just feels the pressure from there's just not enough time in the day sometimes that I think that's the majority of they their their expectations. There's too many expectations on all middle managers. And when you add one more thing, you know, it's kind of like you're on a unicycle juggling and spinning plates at the same time, and someone's throwing you more balls and more plates, and it's just all going to crash to the floor. So I just think it's too much sometimes.

Shannon Tipton

49:29

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. The retention. That's an excellent point, Jason,

Jason

49:36

what I'm discovering lately as we roll out a leadership program is most of them don't even know developing their folks as part of their job.

Shannon Tipton

49:45

Oh, there's that too. Okay? And

Jason

49:47

they're more doers than leaders. So they're out there doing projects and doing work and doing field stuff. You know, they're still expected to be 85% billable. Yeah, and there's no talking like, Hey, we're gonna bring that down so that you can spend more time leading and developing your people so they honestly don't care, because they don't see that as part of their job,

Shannon Tipton

50:13

right? And I think there are three really good points here. So first, the retention. Now let me ask you, Carol, let me back up just a second before I get to Jason's point. When you say retention issues, or is it retention with the management level, or retention with employees under the management level,

Carol

50:34

under the management level? Again, credit union, frontline retail, it's a revolving door. Sometimes, you know, they're they're they have very high expectations. They need to know a lot. They are the member facing roles. Honestly, I I don't think they earn enough money. So I think that when something better comes along, you know, it's hard to it's hard to keep them long enough to see that there's possibilities. And we do, we do a lot of internal movement. So like frontline retail, will leave, and they'll get, you know, go into a different department, but they don't stick around long enough to see that they're actually in a good place, because they want to earn more money immediately. So, yeah, it's, it's typically the frontline retail that is the retention. And then that affects everything that affects their their peers are, then there's more expectations on them. The branch manager then has, you know, scheduling issues, staffing issues. It's just, it's kind of like a domino

Shannon Tipton

51:42

effect, right? And then training has nowhere in that, right? So they're like, they're just busy putting out fires at this point,

Carol

51:50

correct? And we're, then we're, the disappointment from our end is that we had a really engaged employee in training. We train them, we set them to the branch, and then they're at the branch for a short period of time, and then we hear that they're leaving. And we're always sad, because we're like, oh, we really like that person, and they did so well in training, and they were going to be a great employee. Like, what happened? Like, you know? And sometimes we just don't know. Like, sometimes my boss will tell me if they're leaving for a new role, or if it's something else, but typically we don't really know. We just know that it was someone we view it as a high potential employee, and now they're gone, and we have to start all over again with the next person that comes in the door. So right,

Shannon Tipton

52:35

right. And I'm looking at Denny's comment about, you know, is there adequate sponsorship of these things, and that's so true. And I will, I will go to battle with the statement that money does not become an issue unless the environment makes it an issue. You know, it once an employee starts saying to themselves, you don't pay me enough for this, then you got problems, then you have problems. You know, I won't say most, but a lot of employees, it's I can make $12 here or $13 there. They're not going to leave a job for $1 unless there's something in their environment that says it's not worth staying here, right? So then there's a cultural issue some place, you know. So whenever I see and I get this all of the time, I have been, you know, in this role for 30 plus years now, and I always smile when they tell me, Well, you know, money is the driver. No, money is not the driver. Culture is the driver. And if you can't support a culture, that says, Now, if you if there's a huge paid difference, it's like, I'm getting paid this amount and the credit union down the road is paying me five or $6 more an hour. Okay? Now that's that's different, but if we're talking nickels and dimes. That's a cultural issue. You know, that's a conversation for a different day, though, before I hijack, before I hijack this, I

Carol

54:10

don't think it's a nickel and dime issue. I honestly just think that it could just I don't. I think that's, like, one of the reasons I think sometimes, like, there are a lot think about a financial institution and what the expectation is on a frontline retail member, they're they're expected, you know, fraud is completely, you know, off the charts, and they need to be, you know, constantly focused and make sure that they're doing everything 100% correctly. It is a lot of pressure for someone, especially if they're new to a financial institution.

Shannon Tipton

54:42

Sure, sorry, I get it. Some jobs just aren't right for some people. There's a whole lot of things, you know, bundled up into that statement, you know, that we could spend a whole other hour talking about. But one of the other things that I did want to touch base on, though, that Jason said before. We break off for the rest of the for our weekend coming up is that the managers didn't know it was part of their jobs. That is such an accurate statement. Jason, so accurate. You know, you see this as and I have seen this. I again 30 years doing this, and I've seen this blurb in just about every manager's job role. It's a little bullet point that says, you know, you're to coach and develop others, right? And it's a little it's a little dot point on a job description somewhere, and maybe it's a little dot point on a performance review place, somewhere that nobody really covers with them, that they really don't assess. They really don't judge. It's just there as a tick box kind of thing. And I think truly, there are a lot of managers out there that go, Hey, we have this LMS. We have this system here with all the training in it. Why is it my job to make sure that they do it? I think that's a very that's very, very fair, you know. So I think that there's also a communication issue that happens with middle managers. As far as, this is why we need your help. This is why we need to put people in front of, you know, the training, or send them to the classes, or what have you. I don't think they truly understand how big their role is, I think that's, that's was a really, you know, really powerful observation. I think the secondary one here, before we leave off, is billable hours. You know, they're not going to do it. If they're not, you know, this is not something that I can build to a client, then it's not going to get my attention, you know. So those of those people out there who work with in institutions, lawyers, insurance, etc, sales, you know, where it is all about that billable hour, this becomes a tough battle. It really does. And we could probably have a whole different sex time of the section conversation about billable hours and how to work within that that's a tough nut to crack, but we are at the top of the hour. So now what I'd like to know from you is, before we go, was there an idea that came up in this conversation that you think that you can take action on right away. If so, what is it? I'd love to see it in the chat. Or you can come out and talk. You can talk. I yeah,

Shannon Tipton

57:50

if managers are not engaged, what you can do? Yeah, oh, I've read that one. Yeah. I love Laura's idea too. So Laura, I think that was definitely the highlight. I think that was a good one. Communication is everything, and just helping them do their jobs is everything. Yeah, bring those middle managers in early and I'll send that resource out. I better make a note of myself. Okay, all right, good deal. Now. Don't forget that the third quarter. Can't believe I just said that third quarter of coffee chats is out, and so you can register for them all here. I just put the link in. So like I said, just go down the list and tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. You don't have to show up for all of them, but just know that you'll get all of the resources. And then also don't forget that we've got the new micro learning and AI Lab happening that starts in mid July. If I've our five week program about how to use the intersection of micro learning and AI, how to use those things together, not how AI is going to take over your brain, but how you can use AI for your benefit make things smarter, better, faster, more efficient. All the fun things, all right? And so the next Coffee Chat is on, I think, July 18, and so that skips over the July 4 weekend, and it's about writing. How can we be better writers? How do we write to humans rather than write to learning? Right? So how can we really connect with people on an emotional level through our through better writing? And this is where we're going to talk about my favorite topic, which is, how can we develop more human based learning outcomes, forget writing learning objectives. How can we write those things to be more human centric, you know, so that they can are more relatable. And how do we create courses that are more relatable? How do we. Tackle that sort of writing assignment, especially if you have subject matter experts that are asking you to write in one particular way, and you know that that's not going to resonate with the person that's sitting on the other side of the screen. All right. So thank you, everybody. I hope you all have a great weekend. Anybody got any special plans? I hope it stopped raining. That's what. That's what

Carol

01:00:24

I'm she just started for an exam.

Shannon Tipton

01:00:28

Oh, oh, I don't know. Is that fun or not? What kind of an exam is

Carol

01:00:32

it? A credit union, a certified credit union facilitator

Shannon Tipton

01:00:36

exam? Oh, okay. Ooh, alright. Good luck with that. I'm kind of digging. I'm kind of digging Stella. Stella's going to Berlin. And I'm like, Yes, Stella, I want to go. I i Help OE. B accepts me again, because I want to go back to Berlin. I like Berlin. The food's great, the People's great. The sites are great, yeah. Stella, always good to see you. Stella, Stella from across the pond, she always joins us. Yeah. What have we got here? Yep. Thank you everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Good luck on that exam. Carol, thank you.

Shannon Tipton

01:01:28

Bye, everyone. Bye.

Shannon Tipton

01:01:33

Elizabeth, thank you

Shannon Tipton

01:01:36

always a great way to wind up my week. Shannon, Oh,

Shannon Tipton

01:01:38

thanks for that. Heather, it does. It makes me happy too. I wish that I had the energy to do it every week, but I don't think people have the energy to do it every week. But it always makes me feel good too. It's also like it's reaffirming sometimes that yes, we are doing good things over here you are. We're doing something right? Yay, yay. And, and the great ideas, like what

Noel

01:02:09

Laura like, what Laura was sharing, just some of the, the fantastic little job, AIDS and handouts and stuff. It's, it's so good to be able to tap into other people's brains, yeah, and just for sure, get some fresh stuff, even if it's a twist on something we did, you know, way back, it's like, oh, that's cool and updated and refreshed and everything. And, yeah,

Shannon Tipton

01:02:32

I mean, like, I said, I did. I wrote down what she said. I'm like, I'm totally Sterling that because, yeah, that's a line that I can use and will resonate. Yeah, and I know our our general managers, which they basically each run their own location. It's almost like a franchise kind of thing. They're they're up to here, like constantly, like always, you know. So I'm actually working on a customer service course, that somebody requested a few months back. They wanted one of these manager led things, and it's like, well, we've got, you know, some bits, and I could help you write a script to follow up on it, so you're not, you know, just throwing something at them, because you've already said that didn't work, but we got a new toy, and it's a VR thing, so it's, oh, you can actually, like, talk to it, and it'll, it'll hear your, hear your voice, and if it comes within like, 80% of the prompts that we put in, you know, you go down that path. Or, you know, we can put together, like, actually responsive prompts. So you say, like an AI agent, it's very much an agent. AI agent, yeah, that's really cool. That's really cool. I've been looking more and more into those and thinking, how can I develop them? You know, for some of the clients that I have to make their lives easier, you know. So I think that that's a path that we really need to look into more, because it just again, helpful and useful, right, you know. So if you're doing things that are helpful and useful, then you become a beneficial part of the the organization. Yeah,

Noel

01:04:21

and this is from a company called Tailspin that just got acquired by cornerstone. So they are becoming a part of Cornerstone.

Shannon Tipton

01:04:33

But no, they've been, they've been really, really great. They it's fairly new company, so a lot of what they're doing is, is kind of new, but I had a session with them this week, and they're like, we've never tried that. Let's see if we can get it to work. I like it. I like it. I think it's a great idea. So, so yeah, it's always, always fun. You know, trying new things. And hearing what other people are doing. So thank you. Ah, you're welcome. My pleasure. Believe me, I get a lot out of it, too. Every every time we talk, there's always, there's always an idea or two that I'm jotting down that's like, oh, that's, that's a that's a goodie, you know? So I just hope that others get the same experience. Awesome, awesome. All right, you Yeah. Have a wonderful fourth whatever you end up doing, yeah, yeah. We'll probably do the so. Crystal Lake has a big festival carnival thing that lasts, like, from Friday through Sunday. I have, like, live bands every day, and there, there's light bands scheduled every few hours between Friday and Sunday. And so we just, like, grab a chair and we camp out. And it's, it's a great time, you know, just the people watching, listen to some good music and good food. And I love that. And then, and then, of course, the parade goes past, you know? So you've always got the Fourth of July parade, so he's long. Oh, are you on the parade route? Or I am, yeah, the well, actually, the festival is on the parade route. Oh, okay, so they actually go through the perimeter of the festival. So, so depending on where you're, where you're sitting, you can kind of get a bird's eye view without having to sit at the curb or something, you know. So that's always fun. Well, that sounds like a blast. Yeah, it is a blast. It is. So we have a lot of fun. And then there's so there's that, and then the weekend directly afterwards. Where is it? I can't think about where it's at right now, but like, the city adjoining us has a Rib Fest, so it's like, Fourth of July, and then the Rib Fest right afterwards. It's like, okay, so those are, like, two weekends where it's like, All right, we gotta diet before we go and do this. No, you just gotta walk around a lot and just get your steps. Yes, get your steps. Lots of dancing, lots of dancing for all those bands. Yeah, that's right, that's how you work it off. It's all fun. Yeah, that is how you work it off. That's true. Good point. All right. Well, have fun. Stay hydrated. See you too. All right, bye, bye. Let's see you.

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