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S03E02 - With Jonathan Dunning - The call of God in your life | Otter.ai

S03E02 - With Jonathan Dunning - The call of God in your life

Ian Banner22min

Ian Banner

00:00

Well, good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, everyone. It's another podcast from the school of safe and humble profits.

Voiceover

00:06

And welcome to this podcast brought to you by the School of safe and humble profits. Our crew consists of really experienced leaders from different nations who work and operate within churches locally and internationally. Our aim is to bring you the most up to date thinking in teaching on how to use prophetic gifting safely and with humility. Let's join our host Ian for another episode of a current series.

Ian Banner

00:27

I'm Ian bonnet on the school of safe and thanks for getting hold of this free podcast. I believe prophetic gifting in the Christian church, if done well is an immensely useful tool to encourage and help everyone grow and become mature in Christ. If it's done well, it's brilliant. If it's done badly, it can cause huge problems. I'm obviously a fan of doing it. Well, that's what this podcast when the school is safe and humble province is all about how to use prophetic gifting Well, safely and for the benefit of the local church. But who is this podcast for? Well, first, it's for anyone who's saved, who think they have prophetic gifting and want to learn how to serve the local church well with safety. And secondly, it's for pastors and leaders who want to understand how to empower prophetically if prophetically gifted people well, to get the best, the best out of them, not the worst. And I'm joined again today by my really, really good friend, Jonathan Jonathan Dunning from Sheffield, currently the leader of men a Christian Fellowship, but not for long. You're about to take your well under retirement. Yeah. Stepping

Jonathan Dunning

01:31

down later on this year. Yeah.

Ian Banner

01:33

Although I will say of course, we all know the truth is that no, no Christian leader steps down and stops or retires. The plan not getting paid.

Jonathan Dunning

01:40

I was gonna say the plan is not quite to step down away from ministry. I'll be I'll be doing quite a bit more. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Banner

01:47

So great to have you again, want to check through some more things, I realized we haven't really done one of the very obvious golden questions, which is sorry, which is? How did you? What's your ministry call? How did that all happen? I guess people would like people to know a bit more about you. So how did all that happen?

Jonathan Dunning

02:07

Okay. So a long, long time ago, I became a Christian, having been brought up in church, because obviously going to church itself doesn't make you a Christian, you have to make a conscious effort to, to give your life over to the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord. And I did that in my early teens. But I must admit, I really struggled to live a life worthy of that calling, as scripture would say, for a number of years, I really wanted to be accepted by my peer group at school and to, to fit in. And so for many years, I lived in what could be called a twilight zone, you know, I was a little bit too light for the dark world I was living in, and a little bit dark to actually feel comfortable at church because I knew that the life I was leading was not honoring God. And I made a conscious effort to come back to God when I was in a pretty bad place at the age of 17, and began to witness and evangelize. But it was soon after that. At the age of 18, at my baptism, actually, where I had a very clear sense that God was calling me into pastoral ministry, I talked to what a guest speaker at the conference at the church I was attending at that time, which was on a farm, just been baptized in a river. And I said to him, he was living in Pennsylvania at the time that I felt God had called me to pastoral work, and that he and I wouldn't be working together in the future. pretty astounding thing to say, because he was living in Pennsylvania, as I said at the time. But within a year, he'd moved over to the UK. He was he was in the church that I was attending. And we ended up living in a house together, would you believe? And of course, I prepare for ministry in that the way that one would expect when you have a calling. I began working on the farm.

Ian Banner

04:04

Oh, this is really interesting, Jonathan, because for some of our audience, you know, they feel I want to talk a little bit about whether the call in your life is the most important thing. Yeah. But we'll come back to that. But for a lot of our audience, when they feel God has called them to be a pastor, they go, Oh, fair enough, then I'll just start doing the church on Sunday. And literally, that's a very common way of doing it, which is if I can find a building, I'll announce some services and call people to come and give money and build the church. You seem to imply there's a shall I say there's a preparation,

Jonathan Dunning

04:37

I think apprenticeship discipleship is discipleship is the same as apprenticeship you know, you learn your trade. So you feel if you felt you wanted to be a carpenter, you weren't just set up in business the next day you would learn what it was from a carpenter to do the trade if you if you were going to work in many places. You don't you don't just start in you for Christians to feel that just because God has given them a call that they immediately are primed and ready to go, there is that frustration that you feel even as a young man, particularly a young man, you know, you want to get in, get on with it straight away. But I gave a year of my life, to work on a farm where all my money was given to the church so we could build a building of which I was not a pastor. And I learned, I used to travel with evangelists, I used to go to meetings. And I used to listen. And I used to learn, I learned how to pray with people I learned from other people. And this brings us back to what Jesus says doesn't eat because he talks about, Take my yoke upon you and learn of Megan. And the idea there is of course of a young ox learning from an older ox training, you know, from a yoke yoked together to plow learning what it is to do that work. For us to assume that we know everything, and we're ready. Immediately that we receive a call is very naive and a little bit immature.

Ian Banner

06:02

Yeah. Okay. I still think that question want to ask you about is because I think I would observe for a lot of the people that this podcast will go to, hears this story that they could tell, I felt God called me to be a minister. Yeah, I started church. Yeah. My call. Yeah, the thing that God gave me is the most important thing in my life. However, I want to put a different spin on that for a minute and talk about not the call for ministry. But the call for being born again. Yes. Because I have a theory that a lot of ministers in where this podcast goes to mainly for them, the ministry is a job, you know, the giving on Sunday, first of all, feeds them. Yeah, and usually houses them. And it's possible that maybe the challenge I want to present in this in this podcast is to people are listening, which is do you know, the moment when Christ entered your life, or the Holy Spirit enters your life? Now? Of course, I know you do. I'm not saying Jonathan, do you know, because I know you do. But I think the thing I want to ask you about is this issue, perhaps an issue that it can be people think the call for ministry is the more significant thing in their life than the call to follow Jesus.

Jonathan Dunning

07:26

Yeah, and that would be a real mistake. I think the thing is, there's a bit of confusion then about what a call what calling is, to me. Our first call is to follow Jesus, Jesus says, Follow me. Unless we're really doing that, then we're not in a position to actually do anything else. So the first thing, the primary thing, the foundation for all ministry, prophetic, pastoral evangelism, whatever is that we actually know Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and that we're following him in the way we're living. And if we can't do that, so from the time I would say, I was called, I was just trying to work out in my mind, before I was the overall leader of a church, we're talking, we're talking 17 years, wow. 17 at 17 years, I never lost that sense of call. I worked as a, at a church or to churches, as assistance to ministers, as part of my apprenticeship, if you like as part of learning my trade, learning what it was to be a minister. But the first full time, pastor that I took on was when I came to Sheffield, 30 years ago in this church, alright, the church that we are going to be 64 in a month's time. So, you know, do the math 17 When I heard the call 34 and against Jeffy loss 33 Just come out to those four.

Ian Banner

08:49

Yeah. Okay. So I want to if you don't mind, I want to just pick our brains together on this issue about what it means to be born again, because I want to be sure, because I think a lot of a lot of people that might listen to this, that culturally they go to church. Yeah. They turn up a church on a Sunday of the day, that kind of thing. They possibly hear a call to ministry, maybe a prophetic person calls them and says, yeah, why are you going to be a pastor? But they sort of somehow don't quite get the foundation of being born again. Right. So coming Do you mind if we talk about that for a minute? Sure. So Jesus said in John chapter three, Nicodemus, a religious leader goes to see him and says, you know, the religious leader says almost in the dark quite know your man from God. What must I do to get eternal life? In it? I like it that you didn't get what Mr. did to get ministry? Yeah. To get to in life and you said you must be born again. And you know, you get confused about that means and then Jesus talks a little bit about the fact that there's two births. The first birth is your physical birth. We've all done that. The second birth in John three it's born again, or maybe born in New York or possibly born from Ebola burner The Spirit Jesus. Yeah. So it's all that, essentially the thing we have to say is, unless you've got that you haven't got anything that's worth having. If you think maybe you're a minister or pastor or church and think actually, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to heaven because I'd run the church really? Well, no, you won't.

Jonathan Dunning

10:19

No, it's not a profession. It's not something. I think some people have always had a desire to be a church leader, because they see the power, they see the authority, they see the man of God or the woman of God on the platform and think, oh, wow, I want to be like that. So there's kind of an aspiration in their minds to actually think this is really living, they look as though they're doing really well. That's very different from a call saying, I desire to do this, you know, I want to do this. And I mean, I know in in the UK, in in England, there's lots of people who go into church ministry, who do not know Jesus, who do not know Him as their Lord and Savior. And frankly, you know, call that the bigger the call upon your life and upon my life and upon your life in all of us is to follow Jesus. Now, when we follow Jesus, Jesus might ask different things of us, he might ask things of us in our business, he will ask things of us in our family life, he'll ask things of us about our money. We might specifically ask us to do or say, certain things or to become, you know, to follow him as a pastor or a prophet or an evangelist. But the thing is, we're following Jesus. Now, you can't follow somebody whose voice you've never heard. Who you don't know. You might have read about it. But actually, there is a distinct sense where it goes from our heads to our hearts a call, a call is something much deeper. A few years ago, I went through a real struggle when I was in Sheffield at the, you know, the scene where I had some time off, because I was struggling, not with not with particular sin, but just with anxiety, and worries for a period of time. Do you know there was a time when I wanted to run away from leading a church. But I couldn't run away from a call. And yeah, I know, many ministers who have joined because they really aspire to be this person, or because the money looks good, or the position looks good or whatever. And as soon as pressure comes on them, they capitulate so many people start in ministry, and don't finish and don't finish well. And they don't finish well, because they haven't got a true calling. They've just got a desire.

Ian Banner

12:50

Yeah. And a desire that's born out of, shall I say, human strength? Yeah. You know, strength will weight strength will rise as we wait upon the Lord. Yeah, the strength that we have within us, I'm reminded that of the fish that changes its pressure from the inside under any kind of pressure in the ocean. And does that because he's because he can and he couldn't do that, for us is, whatever the world's pressure is, if we've got the Holy Spirit in us fully, so we can we could be imbalanced. And I do think it's possible to say that when some pastors burn out when some pastors get exhausted, what they're getting exhausted from is their own strength. Yay. They've they've worn themselves out, rather than they worn out the strength from God. Absolutely. Because it's. So I therefore think the what I want to say is a call to action, if you could agree with me is it's important that it's important that people who are hearing this podcast think, am I saved? Did I have that moment where I? Everyone's born first physically? Yeah. That means we're on this planet. Yeah. If you're born again, or born with a house robot, that's your that's your first point. Yeah, the first thing that gets you a call to heaven. Yes. Saved. We could talk a little bit maybe on another podcast about that word, and the three dimensions of it that we understand. But I think the thing I want to sort of ask you to confirm and understand in your case, because it because in my case, that was the same, which is I clearly remember making a commitment to Jesus way before. Yeah, I remember being called to any ministry. Yeah. And then in fact, I remember another moment when God said to me, here's your ministry in small acts of kindness to other people. Yeah, great. And I remember thinking, Oh, because I was immature. And I said it. I think I think what it was was at the time, I remember thinking okay to first call, actually, I think it's a call that stays with you forever to be as small acts of kindness to everyone else. If I could just do that I'd be happy to

Jonathan Dunning

14:56

read. So for me, I would sit slightly different in that my calling came pretty soon after I became a Christian. But actually it was years before that was fulfilled when you will know as a prophet, that sometimes prophetic words you have to wait for them Habakkuk was telling you you have to wait and do that waiting process can feel frustrating. But actually the waiting process is a learning process if you will keep following Jesus. But the Khalif clear thing is, you know, being a Christian, as we said, it's not just going to church, it's not just that you've been baptized. It's not just that you've been blessed by somebody is not even maybe that you've you've heard something about, you must consciously have that testimony that we would call a testimony, don't we, that we have a story to tell of how we personally met or encountered the presence of the person of Jesus Christ, and how we consciously said, I will get up and follow you in the same ways as those disciples that were mending their nets, fishermen, a tax collector, others heard Jesus voice. And their lives were changed because they followed him.

Ian Banner

16:09

Audio this is this is great. And it's worth a moment to pause on the podcast series and just allow this to sink into anyone listening, which is, if you don't know Jesus, like that, don't have that voice. In John 14, it says My sheep hear my voice. Yeah. So if you don't have that, I mean, thinking of a person who is a prophetic person in a church where the pastor doesn't have that voice, I can understand why that would be very difficult to understand and cope with that even more, because if the pastor is running the church through drive thru ambition, through will, the whole interaction of the Holy Spirit and the know how the Holy Spirit flows through the church rather than controls. Yeah, he's gonna not be there.

Jonathan Dunning

16:54

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, if you're in a church that is led by people who don't follow Jesus, who don't hear His voice, who haven't personally given their lives over to him, have not been born again, and are not following Him. All those all those kinds of ideas you get in Scripture, then they will be running their churches on a very different model.

Ian Banner

17:17

Is that so is it possible to be a pastor of a church and not be born again?

Jonathan Dunning

17:22

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yes. Because that happens. Well, in our country and around the world. Absolutely. Is it

Ian Banner

17:31

possible to lead worship and not be born again? Yes. Is it possible you could hear God and give prophetic words out? Yes. And pray for people? Yeah, still, you could?

Jonathan Dunning

17:42

Because God actually speaks through lots of people. I mean, we're talking about the prophetic earlier in another sort of chat we had together. And you were saying how people often disregard proper prophetic prophecy, if the person who's given it, you know, their character is a bit sort of dodgy. But the issue is that, you know, God speaks through who he speaks through, and that we must learn to listen. So the only the test of those kinds of Prophet of that is, is not the person's character. The test is, is it true to Scripture? Is it true to the character of God? Is it true to the purpose of God? That, you know, you've heard already? Does it confirm something God's saying, you know, the validity of it is not in the person, the validity of it is in terms of how how, you know, whether it fits in with with what God is actually saying, in his in his word, and through spirit to the church. But then you need you need pastors who know Jesus. It's interesting, because Jesus tell stories about shepherds who were real shepherds who lay down their life for their sheep, who counted the cost it because actually, it's a challenge to follow Jesus. It means putting Jesus first before your own self interest, before your own money. Before everything you want it for yourself in selfish ambition. Or a hireling. Use the other words, somebody who was there for the position for the profession for the money, and when the pressure comes on hirelings are not genuine pastors, or they run away.

Ian Banner

19:26

Yeah, yeah. I guess we're gonna finish this. This episode. I think what I feel I want to say and do is just as a as a challenge to anyone hearing this podcast. Do you know you're saved? Yeah. If you if you struggle with doubt, let's sort that out. Now. Have you got a testimony of when you met Jesus, and if that hasn't happened? Can I just ask you to put aside all your agendas for what we might be doing together on this podcast series and just go back to what Jesus said which is To enter the kingdom of God, you must be born again. And in John three it says, For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believed him. And, you know, we know the story of the cross tells us that the great swap happened. Our sin, Jesus took his righteousness, we get that our weigh in. And I think I'd just like to leave this one with a prayer if it's okay, let's just pray. If, if it's just dawned on you for the first time. Maybe you've been leading the church for a while, but still you've realized how crikey, I hadn't got this right. Maybe maybe years. As I pray now, you could join me in the same prayer. Would you say I'm sorry for my sins. The things I've got wrong, are repent of those. Now I understand that your death on the cross has given me a way forward. To get back into a relationship with God, I want to take advantage of that offer now. Holy Spirit, I invite you to live in me with a promise to do my best to respond to your spirit in my life. I know I'll make mistakes. But from this day forward, I want to follow you. Amen.

Jonathan Dunning

21:13

Just one thing I've been prompted while we're praying, just to say is that I think there may be people listening who have had a model of leadership, which sounds very different from what we've been talking about today. And you've just carrying on the model of leadership that you've seen in others. Your model for leadership is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one you follow. Not other people.

Ian Banner

21:36

Oh, man, that's great. I'm talking to Jonathan. There'll be more episodes to come.

Voiceover

21:40

That's it for another episode. The School of safe a couple prophets is a UK and International Christian ministry bringing you the best and most up to date teachings on all things relating to prophetic gifting. Subscribe to our podcast by following at safe profits on Twitter or subscribe on our website safe profits.org For more information, visuals and show notes. Join us next time for more from the school of safe and tumble profits.

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