20230822 Industry Update

    5:33PM Sep 1, 2023

    Speakers:

    Rob Hirschfeld

    Rocky

    Claus Strommer

    Keywords:

    terraform

    companies

    cloud

    talking

    google

    data

    happening

    ansible

    close

    news

    customer

    dog food

    cross

    guess

    vmware

    incognito

    interesting

    good

    corp

    events

    Hello, I'm Rob Hirschfeld, CEO, co founder of racket and your host for the club 23 podcast. In today's episode, we took our check in about tech topics, and extended it for the whole time we really enjoyed talking about what's going on with the news of the day is what's happening in different circles. And there is a lot happening from VMWare and Broadcom to hashey Corp and the license changes, even to sad news about Chris Nova passing during a mountaineering expedition, there is a lot of things to consider and going on. And we walk through a lot of them. So if you'd like to catch up on the tech news, then this topic hopefully has aged well and you will enjoy it

    I'm interested also in you know, what's what's shaping up from a cube? Con perspective? I haven't heard anything about cube con.

    That'll have I to be honest. I haven't really been paying that much attention to the news in the past week either. But after check 111 others even I know get ups Cohn is shaping up. To be I believe they're aiming at for it to be a two day event this year.

    What was it? What was it before

    before that was typically attached to to CD con, like continuous delivery con. I think now the but or at least there's been talks and among the people on and gallops working group to, to attach to other conferences and and that way they can make use of the resources without having to set up a whole separate conference. Let me see if I can find the conversation on that.

    I usually like travels travels burden enough. So it is nice to be able to dogpile although sometimes you get into the case where the trips end up getting too long, which is frustrating.

    Yeah. So yeah. So get up con. It looks like they're going to do it as a virtual event. On December 5 And sixth, or at least that's what they're aiming for. In conjunction with the Linux Foundation.

    In so there, they chose a virtual.

    Yeah, virtual on two half days as opposed to one full day.

    It's interesting. I've seen some hybrid events. Be interested to know how, how attendance comes together on that? Well,

    that's actually an interesting question, considering how many people caught COVID During

    the security conference that just happened there a lot of people and a lot of people said they weren't going to go because there wasn't a mask requirement. They that is going to be interesting because I also know folks who are are regretting that there are fewer virtual events, and they would be happy to attend virtual but they're not interested in going in person with COVID. Rice.

    Yeah, but particular with a new strain going around. Yeah.

    I've seen strains

    reporting reporting COVID. And yeah, there's not there's really no material. Nobody's masking it. Vm explorer.

    Wow. Yeah, DEF CON totals over 250 At this point of reported. Reported in infections. Wow. Well, DEF CON Blackhat. All the rest of the stuff rolled into one, right?

    Not surprising that the I guess all things considered.

    And there are people who said I masked the entire time except when I was eating. And I came home with COVID. So there's actually besides Aaron coming out of England, there's also a new variant coming out of Michigan that came that's come out of Michigan. Nice. And the the research is finally showing that there there's a lot of cardio cardiovascular impact from from COVID.

    That Don't scare me like that. I'm going to Google next next week.

    Where are your mask? Yeah. Yeah.

    And I also had to choose the biggest airplane on my flight there. Because it's not often that I get the chance to fly in a Dreamliner.

    Hmm, huh. Yeah,

    those are that is a beautiful, yeah.

    Well, if you're which Google, you're going to

    San Francisco.

    Because I'm in the Bay Area. It might be interesting to meet up for lunch or something. All right. Yeah, absolutely. But outside.

    Yeah, I don't know much about that area. And well, don't check my schedule. Because I know, like the ethical conference starts pretty early uncle's pretty much all day.

    Oh, yeah. They have parties and shit like that. So yeah.

    I might sneak out

    or crazy on this. Like, the last time I was there, pre COVID. They were, like, definitely checking, like pictures on badges, which is, you know, they were they did not want anybody who was not who they said they were coming into that venue.

    Wow. You know, you're only allowed to bring like, tote bag sized. Carry on. So at most. Oh, it's it's going to be interesting. Like, it's the first conference I've gone to in person says COVID. You have course the biggest one.

    Oh, man. Well, I

    guess AWS reinvent my might be bigger. Yeah, getting out there. Yeah.

    I'll be curious to hear what you learn. I definitely. You know, Google, Google does not get the footprint from a news perspective that the other clouds do, but I know they do some really interesting. So

    the agenda is ai ai ai there's a couple of usability improvements for further services that I know that they're going to announce but for the most part, it's yeah, it's it's gonna be a buzzword conference.

    Things from here. It there's definitely some LLM in AI but it looks like more about places where they're showing people how to use it and discuss it. I haven't I haven't seen as much real content about about AI here and the edge stuff that I usually am interested in is really much less dominant like there's there's relatively little edge here this year. Where are you currently VMware explorer. Oh,

    oh, so your local right now?

    Relatively Yes.

    Well in the city,

    timezone local to definitely. Wow. But yeah, I'm visiting the floor and trying to get a feel for what's up and what's down.

    Well visit hashey Corp. Sorry. Visit Hashi Corp.

    I didn't see a booth for them. I'm definitely curious. They don't have that. So hold on. I mean, we talked about it last week, but file still continues.

    Oh, they had an ad on Twitter about how they're there some something new and TerraForm lets you do better virtual machine management with VMware so that you save money. And I get this feeling that whatever they're announcing is not part of the open version of TerraForm.

    At this point, nothing is

    exactly. And this is shiny new, supposedly,

    is that yeah, well, but they keep they keep expanding scope as what they what their intentions are, and fundamentally using fear you're, you're any vendor using TerraForm, that that is that is functionally going to be prevented. Unless you're paying for it, and only they haven't created a mechanism to license it that I've seen.

    It's a big, it's a I mean, I this is this is gonna, people got very, very deeply embedded with TerraForm. And it's going to be curious to see how how much that has started, right.

    I mean, I don't think people who are using TerraForm are going or not allowed, or cannot stop using TerraForm. But it did. They might switch to version.

    Yeah, I mean, the I think there's the question of how, how the fork comes about, and what what happens from a fork perspective, or if you even need to move to the new version of

    there multiple companies talking about getting the fork started, and they're starting to talk about names for the damn pork. When they start shaving the Yak, that's when he know, it probably will happen.

    I mean, they can't name a T, I believe TF or even tf is going to be problematic for them that they're going to have to have some new, something

    I don't know. I mean, it's it's a community I how the, the entities end up collaborating around TerraForm. For that, it could be a great, I mean, it could actually isolate out the higher level pieces and just let it be a DSL, that's part of our analysis here is that, you know, the four could actually treat TerraForm as a real cloud DSL, and then strip away a lot of the stuff that made a TerraForm harder to embed, like the, you know, the the way state files had to be stored, and things like that. But that's a that's a much bigger lift when you start talking about about something like that.

    Yeah. I don't know how big hashey Corp is at this point, but they just laid off 8% of their staff. So

    there's, there's, I mean, there's definitely a commercial imperative here for that, because, right, their latest, their latest filings were in showing the profitable, they still plenty of cash. Or this is what Greg was talking about this last week, right.

    But I mean, the thing that that I see from, from a embedding perspective, is there's a lot of companies that are that are automating around TerraForm to do provisioning operations. And What's not clear is, if those if the providers who are service SAS businesses that are using TerraForm to just run the machinery or console or vault to run the machinery of their infrastructure. It's not clear yet if that's a problem, because it's more than TerraForm. It's, it could also be using console in a way or using vault in a way. Yeah, Rob, even if competitive is a very broad brush.

    Yeah, awesome. Rob, could you let Josh back in again? His audio was killed when he let me do that. Thanks.

    Oh, trying to do it.

    Yeah, he said that it was weird that when he got the call it killed his audio, and then he couldn't get back in again. So now he's trying to get back in and it was weird stuff along those lines. It's like, yeah, there

    was boobs acting weird. I don't know if you can hear me. We can hear

    you. Yeah, yeah, it's been okay, hold on. It's say cuz you're showing up as

    Rocky, but I don't see him on the participants list to let him in.

    as well. Let me make you a co host.

    So that if if he shows back up you can you can you can authorize him.

    Okay

    I'm running it from my phone. So I don't know if I bounced everybody or I bounced myself at the beginning.

    was just you yourself as far as I can.

    Okay, so kept running for you. Yeah, I hit the wrong.

    Bounced you. You became you. You got the image of Klauss. Yeah, so there are two actually two square C's on the thing.

    Did you all see the controversy around zoom? There was that I think Hashi Corp eclipsed it. And then it seemed like zoom backpedaled. Ah, yeah, about using you basically a no opt out option on using meeting data for training

    for training AI. Yeah.

    Did they back off? Or did that just slip under the radar? Because hashey Corp was so much bigger news.

    Last week, they made an announcement saying that we're not going to use it. And this week, they made another announcement saying the same that they're not not going to use it. So I guess they somebody got really upset with them on their we're at risk of losing a lot of money.

    There were there was a lot of unsign ups. I mean, there there were some immediate response in the in some of the crowds I was in talking about, you know, not being able to use Zoom. And we had I mean, we had a question about it. For racket, and we were like, I will not be able to use Zoom in certain customer scenarios if they're going to have a no opt out recording policy.

    And Google also has certain policy with regards to using data for training.

    In our discussion, we we really got to the point of it's so far out of our control, and we didn't think it was limited to zoom, that we actually ended up with putting together a policy that said, you know, you know, it's it's okay to you know, you have to tell people, if you're recording, they have to be aware of it. But recording and transcribing meetings has to be okay, because we can't turn it off. Even just like turning on closed captioning, which a lot of these services allow you to do by default. i We have no way to know if those closed captioning results are being

    delivered somewhere. Yeah.

    So we just switched our policy is that you have to make it available to all parties if you have it.

    If you need complete control over your data, like the only option is self host Jitsi or something like that.

    Have Have you seen the lawsuit against Google this going forward about a browser in incognito?

    I didn't know it was a lawsuit. But by the date here the about the other Chrome browser. Incognito not be included to Google itself.

    Oh, and yes. And so there is a lawsuit that the judge refused to throw up. Google's lawyers argument for summary judgment was people using incognito don't want that stuff to be saved on their local devices. But it's okay if Google saves all of that stuff on their servers. So incognito is only incognito on the local device with Google Chrome.

    That's always been my assumption anyway, because there's their DNS logging, if nothing else is going to reveal everything that you do from that. Ah, the only difference would be if you had a VPN and had some really significant protections from that perspective, ran your own DNS,

    which is vulnerable now as well.

    Yeah, but you could use Cloudflare. And even so Google would still be and the cloud Cloudflare anonymous DNS, and even so Google would still be collecting all that stuff. And it's not that they were just collecting it. They were using it to serve ads. Oh, dear. I mean, they're they're using it for all their training and their ad stuff and everything like that.

    Okay, that's Yeah.

    coupling that with with their push to to get people to use the was like the enhanced with security or whatever. Oh, yeah. Which you cannot turn off. If you use Gmail, you they keep keeps popping up, say like that. You sure you don't want to enable this? I assure you don't want to enable this? Oh, yeah.

    Yes, exactly. I get that.

    Yes, that is a really weird. It's not weird. I guess it's, it's just to drop the commercial drive that they're like, Oh, we're gonna protect you from everybody that us. That's that sort of you need you need. It has protections, but it doesn't do anything on our on our relationship with you.

    Right, in fact, we're probably going to get more information from you buy you using this. But we're not talking about that. And that's actually part of the lawsuit is that they said using, you can use incognito mode and nobody will track you. And they didn't say nobody will track you but us. And that's part of the lawsuit.

    underway, Microsoft is also getting in hot water now because they changed teams to open External links in an edge by default. So ignoring your System Preference? Yeah.

    Is it just me? Are we in a giant technology degradation? At the moment?

    It's not technology degradation, it is the corporate need for data. And so technology marches on, but, but the large corporations are trying to suck as much data out of the whole thing as they can. They're reason to exist. Did I already tell you guys about the farmer's dog?

    No, oh, the farmer's

    dog is a dog food company. And they've been advertising like crazy, including, I think, Super Bowl. So they've got some deep pocketed venture capitalists. And they claim that they tailor your the food to your dog, you breathe and needs and stuff like that. And somebody actually walked through the hole, the horse questionnaire that you had to answer to even find out what the prices were for the dog food. And the whole thing is just a Let's scrape for for data. You know, name, address, phone number, email, and then type of dog size of dog. Where you buy your dog food, what dog food your dog eats, doesn't need a special diet and stuff like that. And you go through all of the questions and things like special diet while you want to do this special diet. And that actually gets a lot of folks onto this fresh dog food thing in the first place. It turns out that no matter what question how you answer questions on special diets and stuff like that, they only have one kind of dog food. So they totally ignore what the answers are except for data collection. Yike and it became obvious to to lease some of this this woman who was walking through it to just see what security and, and privacy was that the whole setup for a farmer's dog. It's not a dog food company. It's a data company.

    Which explains the VC money in the push. Yeah,

    exactly.

    I can see. I heard on hard fork a similar story about this. The silver orb company that's doing iris scanning, and they're offering people like $200 of the cryptocurrency for participant opting into the the iris scan.

    Not $200 $50.50 Yeah. So you're selling your identity for $50? Geez. Oh, my

    goodness.

    And was in South Africa banned them?

    Yeah, it's there's a they're going to less developed countries and using it as a, like, VC Bay based crypto giveaway. Yeah, collecting a whole bunch of data from people who don't know anything about the potential uses are compromised. Yeah.

    Yeah, very dystopian.

    Yeah, it's like, everything seems to be converging at the moment. Speaking of convergence of California, sooner, rather tropical, tropical storm and earthquake. Just after Maui burned lyrically.

    Hurricane hurricane Eric quake is that what's

    your quake? Yep. Her quake? Oh, that on the news? Yep, is actually the one of the few ways you could get any reasonable news information on the whole tropical storm on Twitter because none of all the hashtags were just, you could get the top news, which was like really random and lots of repeats. And if you went to latest, you'd get all this porn spam. But her quake gave you more information than just tropical storm or whatever, or hashtag hashtag Hillary.

    I have to say like, I'm doing events without a miss Twitter from an event, hashtag perspective and coordination perspective, like, I, I am much more in the blind because there's no material social media presence on these events anymore.

    So the Macedon doesn't work for that.

    Not it doesn't have the critical mass, and it's not as effective at hashtagging. You hashtags do not cross the fediverse the same way as they did in Twitter.

    Have you tried blue sky? That seems to be I have never

    I just haven't had the willingness to invest in yet another social network. I guess I should, well, this guy is by burden to rebuild your following.

    Yes. Do they have the import capability anymore as must block that because it used to be

    me too, but somewhere, right, you have to build you have to post a mapping like that, like people did it pretty effectively for Mastodon from Twitter, but I haven't seen people build a consistent mapping approach between peoples maybe there's a business here. That's not actually a social media platform, but just a social media cross registration platform.

    Oh man talk about data. That would be such a a large Corp or vulture capital. Data. wet dream I found one

    the social media cross tying system. Yeah.

    I for one I'm happy with with the fediverse and it's decentralization. It feels refreshing after all that whizzers ungraded some whatever else is out there, I understand. For some it is harder to migrate

    the real time information out of active events around the world is definitely a loss with Twitter down the tubes.

    Well, guess what the past week in particular has seen our large influx of new accounts on Mastodon for data scientists because they tutors no longer reliable.

    Well, the other thing that happened in the past week is that a bout a week ago, Musk declared that he was going to eliminate blocking. And so there was a mass exodus again and blue sky got swamped, and I assume Mastodon got swamped. And since then, half the posts out there are musk blocking somebody. Like, here you are blocking all these people. And yet, you say it's going away. But yeah, I'm not sure but blue sky seems to have the edge for the people left on Twitter for leaving

    it. That's the closest of do a pre Muscat experience that you're gonna get. Yeah,

    and it's Jack. And so some people kind of sort of trust Jack, to at least know how to deal with

    it. Speaking of Macedon. And this is completely tangentially related, but it was it hit the news. Was it? Yesterday, not two days ago on Sunday. Chris know what passed away last week?

    Yeah, I

    said, mountaineering accident.

    Oh, what's it? That was a mountaineering accident?

    Yes. Yep. Oh, she was doing what she loved. Yeah.

    I'm not the happiest time of their life. Pretty much. Yeah.

    I wish I wish they'd included that detail in the posts I saw about it. That would have actually been a useful celebration of what Chris loved to do.

    So it was in the follow up messages. But yeah, the first one was, understandably. Then on details. Yes. Yeah. Good. I'm glad.

    I'm glad to know. I'm glad to know they that. They were doing what they love. They were very dedicated to mountaineering. And it's dangerous. Yeah. That's a significant accident.

    Yes. Yes. Sorry for derailing the Prius.

    This is we're having news effectively news of the day and that's a major. A major one. I expect there'll be a lot of sadness in a cube con. relate it in related. Yeah.

    A few in the tech community. So the guy who did vim also?

    Yes, yeah. He also passed away. Kelsey Hightower retired. Yeah.

    That was that looked like a legitimate retirement that he's he's literally.

    So the updates. So from what I've been seeing is, he's actually taking time off. He's doing things like building a custom closet in his home. But he's taking more time to talk with folks and explore things beyond what his job had him exploring. So he was like, He's talking with Keith Townsend. He's talked with Tiki towns in a couple of times. And he's talked with other people. And I think he's exploring technology before those conversations. So he's essentially having a good time at the moment. But keeping his fingers in tech,

    good good for him. No, he's he's a good thinker, deep thinker on this but Is that was we've had a couple of things like that with, with the system initiative. I'm blanking on, I haven't I haven't looked at too much of what they're doing, although I think there was a hashey Corp impact was the Chef or Puppet founder. We're doing doing the new new work, new company on system initiative, trying to rethink some DevOps to our type stuff. Always makes me a little nervous. We keep trying to revisit the core ideas on DevOps, but

    can't blame them.

    Same thing is true with acorn. Right with the rancher, with the rancher folks trying to create something new for that. But the thing without some of the social media stuff I normally catch, I normally see a dribble of those pieces coming and going and I haven't seen it as much as I normally would.

    Right? I agree.

    We're also in a time where companies are closing in on them on themselves, like Red Hat's changes to how they're like, due to how the door is positioned, compared to Enterprise Linux. Even Seuss is going close. Like, I'm sorry, it's going nonpublic now

    what what, what are they doing?

    Um, I'm gonna see if I can't find the article

    because I assume they would be the lead leader of the Santos, alternative family with that,

    while did did announced today are that they're going to be forking route, essentially. But there was something in the news about openSUSE.

    That suits the needs to be red hat.

    Well, no, but they've they are they've been RPM days. And they actually have a pretty close direct out Celeste was a pretty close direct alternative. Although they're there, they use yum. Or they use YaST instead of yum. But very close to

    why now there there have been changes the canonical, I just don't know what they been also

    the chases economic girl while they're out there doubling down on snaps. Which a lot of people upset

    this is where all the distros are basically, the flavors are becoming more distinctive in the places they can become more distinctive of the lock into a Linux family. Or at least the major ones is is becoming more locked in, which is weird. I think all these distros are being distributed through the cloud so aggressively. The clouds have their own distress to we're in a in a pretty fragmented world from that perspective.

    Back FreeBSD

    still strong. The fragmentation I would have thought would be high. That's what surprises me but I guess if you're if you have to maintain a distro fragmenting it just means less collaboration less work for you. That's where I'm scratching my head.

    If you may, well, actually having been at companies that were focused on their major customers. If you are servicing your major customer, you are responding to their needs. directly, and that causes your, your tree to bend towards their needs. And that increases the fragmentation, then you drag the rest of your customers along to whatever your main customer is doing. In needs, unless you're, you've got other big customers that have other fragmentations that are needed. But that that's one of the downfalls that, that I was seeing in a lot of companies, if you have most, a good chunk of your income coming from one customer, you tend to respond quickly, which means that a lot of the stuff doesn't get rolled up or rolled back to the main to the trunk until after you've gotten your you've kept your customer online and moving forward. And then it all gets rolled back in for your other customers. But it's customer driven as opposed to And bottom line driven as opposed to any real architectural discussion.

    And I mean, that's I guess that's it's good because the vendors are working with towards their customer needs is bad, and that the collaboration, there's more, there's less and less need for collaboration and feeding things back except me. I mean, I guess at the kernel level, which is where Linux is supposed to have the community. Right?

    Well, the other issue with that is you keep supporting a single customer, and you've got some lock in there. But if that if there's a problem with that customer, like that customer goes belly up, or hit some legal stuff, or they decide they can get a better deal elsewhere. You're stuck with this. This one off. And that was an issue that I saw happening in some of these companies I was working at the threat of of being left in the dust because you were too focused in a different direction than the community.

    Or not, that has always been a threat that just the cycle has seemingly accelerated. Again, I'm saying seemingly because certainly the the people holding the monies are seeing it as an accelerated cycle. I personally have my doubts as to whether it's it's actually happening or whether it's more of an illusion.

    Well, I think it's also a part of the the money's reaction to the threat of recession. They're, they're forcing their their folks to all hunker down. And a lot of these layoffs were not required or needed. But they were done just pro forma, because oh, we're heading into a recession. So the hunkering down I think is is causing the dispersion. And at some point, we'll go through cycles,

    all the males. Now that we've been nearly a year after them, we can fairly confidently say that they were done for the benefit of the shareholders, not of the company. Oh, yeah, I think the company didn't need to lay them off. It was just that. If they, if they hadn't done the layoffs, their their stock price wouldn't have met the growth expectations that that those shareholders had.

    Oh, and also it's a way to control salary growth,

    which again, ties to shareholder value. Exactly,

    exactly.

    But that's just a better person than me talking. Yeah.

    I do think to your point, though, I, I think that companies collaborating, right, I don't think so. I don't think SAS drives collaboration across companies the same way that software does. And and so I do think there's actually more fragmentation and I think there's much less in interest still investing in cross company? stuff, right? I mean, we definitely we definitely see this, I think the TerraForm pieces that we're talking about, right, that is fundamentally cross cloud stuff and incredibly popular and people love the fact that you have a DSL that's portable and things like that. But but we it couldn't the company doing that work, couldn't maintain it as a collaborative community. Good. I would, I think a lot of people would argue that they weren't building it in a collaborative way, that it was just multicloud. And there was a demand for it. But I think it's really cool. We'll see if the community come back, and they can find a way to collaborate on this, this shared good in in TerraForm, just narrowly about TerraForm.

    I think with TerraForm, what happened was, like, not necessary that it was the best product, but it was tough deal. It was the only products for a while, um, not least, in terms of work, multicloud. I'm also like, off cloud,

    we leave the challenges, we've had a lot of cross cloud layers and abstractions before, but they were always least common denominator TerraForm. I mean, that's the brilliance of TerraForm. For its other for other faults. It never was a least common denominator platform. Right. So the the plans weren't cross compatible, the only the tool was, but it's still CPE created the right the right level of abstraction, without creating a least common denominator cloud wrapper, which is what most most I mean, I've seen people build those a lot, but very hard to make those successful.

    And then the ones when they do the ones I saw didn't didn't get traction across multiple companies. Is that right? Be that those abstraction layers?

    Or were largely driven by a single company on as a result targeted towards that one, like commission, for example?

    Well, because they end up with this and you end up having to put business logic in. And once you put in business logic, then, you know, then it's then it's vendored. In a weird way, it doesn't have to be but usually, I always found that they were they were vendored. Yeah, that was, yeah. TerraForm has has I won't use past tense has gotten the interesting balance between Cloud specific business logic and portability.

    Maybe, I mean, do we are we opening the opportunity for something new to come in and do it, do it, you know, re revisit some of that assumption.

    There's definitely the opportunity for a lot. But there are some aspects of TerraForm that have been a thorn in people's sides for a long time, like the lack of native continuous reconciliation. And yes, they are companies that build around their form on now offer reconciliation as a service, essentially. But it's not quite the same yet. Steep state management is another long term issue that people have been having TerraForm. So there's opportunity for improvement. Whether it happens with the TerraForm fork, or whether it happens with Pulu. Me or with what happens with a new conference that is yet to see. Like it's not like we have we don't have a precedent for something similar happening. Like, for the longest time chef was the only tool that was widely adopted for configuration management. And I specify why widely adopted, yes, there were other tools that were more domain specific that predate puppet. But then Ansible came out on it. Put that whole ecosystem on its head.

    So will shift Ansible really turn that you're right. It very fast. turned everything upside down.

    Yeah, well, the main thing with Ansible was that you didn't need to stand up, like a whole set of infrastructure to manage your systems. You just need a machine that was able to SSH into the other machines and a couple local files and then you're ready to go.

    it, I would argue that in a lot of cases that ended up being a step backwards in the whole design.

    Certainly on on over or over the years, Mike actually became more puppet like with Ansible. Pole. But it those that period between when and so launched and wanted to solidify, it certainly helped. Like, like it brought confusion management forward by beliefs, like itself cross.

    Definitely put it in a lot more people's hands. That is a good point. Just like just like TerraForm made it much easier for people to provision cloud infrastructure like it, it significantly changed the equation of what it took to get infrastructure running in the cloud, like, single handedly that it changed cloud adoption.

    And it also changed how people think about managing cloud infrastructure.

    What, in what sense?

    Well, it's it drove communities away from management dashboards, which, like before that, like, for example, managing VMs, you had your ESX dashboard, and you, you were using your ESX tooling. When TerraForm came around, it was okay, well, I still let my ESX server run. It just, I'm interacting with it entirely through the API. Now. Same happens with happened with clouds at a different scale. Like, yes, you had CloudFormation still there. And a lot of companies were doing their own scripts. So companies were using Puppet in combination with scripts to like deprovision servers and Puppet took up took on the bootstrapping. TerraForm even doubt or homogenized the landscape?

    Yeah, it really it really did have a big impact like that. In some ways, it's funny, because it's very similar to what Docker did for containers. Like we've definitely had these moments. Yeah.

    And to some degree, also, what Kubernetes did for orchestration?

    I was gonna say that, but yes, close said it first.

    So it's amazing how this I mean, these, it's not hard for us to come out with all these interesting history repeating itself. lessons here.

    Personally, I see the tech sector always working in cycles on it doesn't mean that that is predictable. But when you look at it, in hindsight, like there's definitely patterns there.

    Yeah. And so are we are we in the start or the end of the rationalization cycle?

    Yeah, we're, we're, we're moving back to fragmentation and a million flowers, shit like that. And then at some point, there will be something that drives it back together again,

    we're in the, I like to call it the post explosion phase. Where the dust is settling, and you start seeing clumps. And companies are starting to fossilize their, their systems on fossilized. I chose that word on on purpose. Yeah, like five years will. I expect will like to see another explosion, like someone's command going to come around with a new or improved way of doing things and there's going to be another wave of adoptions there.

    Well, I like the fossilized termite act. played very, very apt. Good Choice Awards.

    Thank you. Cool. I will let that be closed for for this. This is an interesting discussion. I love the free ranging ones where we can put a whole bunch of string a whole bunch of pearls together. Same here. Cool. All right, safe travels to Google Next plus and everybody stay out of the hurt quakes.

    Thank you and stay away from

    let you know what I saw at VMware. Probably next week.

    Oh, keep an eye out to see if there's anything that indicates Broadcom is doing any making any moves. With

    that is that is top of my list. I will definitely. Alright, everybody.

    Yes. Bye bye.

    Well, when we started the club 2030. sessions during COVID, one of the things that we were really missing was the ability to sit down and talk about what's going on. And this session was exactly that. This idea that we can connect, and talk and chat, compare notes. And think about what's happening in the world of technology and sometimes the world in general. I hope you enjoyed this episode, if you want to be part of these discussions, and I hope you do. Please join us at the 2030 dot cloud. We would love to have your questions, insights, and topics added to the list. Thanks. And I will see you there. Thank you for listening to the cloud 2030 podcast. It is sponsored by rockin where we are really working to build a community of people who are using and thinking about infrastructure differently. Because that's what rec end does. We write software that helps put operators back in control of distributed infrastructure, really thinking about how things should be run, and building software that makes that possible. If this is interesting to you, please try out the software. We would love to get your opinion and hear how you think this could transform infrastructure more broadly or just keep enjoying the podcast and coming to the discussions and laying out your thoughts and how you see the future unfolding. All part of building a better infrastructure operations community. Thank you