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Episode 135: TYD presents ATFI | Otter.ai

Episode 135: TYD presents ATFI

Brooke Monaghan1h 4min

Brooke Monaghan

00:00

Welcome back, y'all. If you didn't listen to last week's episode, let me just give you a bit of a heads up about what is going on today. I decided to collaborate with my great friends, Tristan Katz and Lauren Kay Roberts. By sharing each other's podcast episodes on our feeds. We've both been on each other's podcasts multiple times. And we thought, you know what people who listen to my podcast would probably love their podcast or vice versa. And so if you're looking for more more podcasts to add to your list of your weekly listens, your favorite business shows, I think you're gonna love all of fuckin it is not a typical capitalist focus business podcasts really about showing up for social justice in your work. And today, last week, I shared my interview that I did with them in season one. This week, I'm sharing the interview that he did in season two, I'm going to be honest, I did not listen back to both of these interviews right before I posted them. But I remember listening to them a bit ago. And I will tell you, I think that you can hear like some growth in there. I don't know we'll see if you think the same thing. Just a reminder, before we get into this episode of all the fuckin first of all, if you love the show, go and subscribe to it wherever you listen to podcasts. The second thing is that Tristan and Lauren have both been on this podcast before so you can also go and find their episodes here, or they're actually going to be airing those episodes over on their show. So maybe you find them there. And the third thing is that if you want to register for the next free community training is happening on August 12, head to bit.li/tyt LIVE, we're going to be talking about transcending your dichotomy by releasing the self sacrifice narrative and business and thus connecting with your greatest gifts that are going to make the most impact and bringing those to the world. Without further ado, let's get into this episode. And we will be back to our regularly scheduled programming next week is a pillory?

Tristan Katz

02:15

Welcome, this is all the fuck in a podcast from two entrepreneurs about showing up for social justice in your work. This isn't your typical capitalist focused entrepreneurial business podcast, there are already plenty of those. We're here because we've been craving voices rooted in activism, justice and integrity with those values. These are conversations about all things business and entrepreneurship. But from a radical perspective that says we don't have to choose between social justice values and being successful in our work. This won't be a place where we claim to have all the answers. Our intention is to offer guidance and support while also encouraging our listeners to discover and live into more questions. We believe these conversations require ongoing practice and a consistent dedication to unlearning. You're ready to go all the fuckin on what matters most while creating an abundant life, you're in the right place. And a quick note on our content. We believe self care is radical and non negotiable in the work of both Justice and entrepreneurship. So some of these conversations include mention of trauma, both from a systemic and often racialized perspective and in relationship to experiences like sexual violence. We hope you do what you need to take care of yourself while listening even if that means pausing and returning to an episode at another time or skipping it altogether.

Tristan Katz

03:47

Well, welcome back everybody. This is just Lauren, I use she and her pronouns as a reminder, and we're here today with Brooke Monaghan, friend and coach of the podcast. Tristan is taking care of themselves today. Much like I had one episode last season that I was not part of because I had to take care of myself. That's what Tristan is up to in this moment, which is wonderful. So Tristan, if you're listening later, thank you for being honest about what you need, because it makes me feel like I can do that too. But Brooke, I'm so excited to have you back. And I think you are so far our first repeat guest which is fun. So I would love to start though as we usually do with sharing anything about like social location that even if you shared it last time if you want to remind our listeners and then I know you looked up your astrology chart in preparation for today. There's anything you want to add.

Brooke Monaghan

04:44

I did Hi everybody. Thank you so much for having me. Sorry, it was froggy there for a second. My name is Brooke Monaghan I use she her pronouns. I carry a whole bunch of privilege I am I'm a white sis heterosexual, able bodied woman, I have a long term, stable relationship with a white man, which also affords me lots of privilege. And yeah, I did look up my astrology chart before I came on. Because last time, I feel like I'm the only person like in my community that like everybody that I spend time with, asks me about it all the time. And I don't know anything about astrology at all. And I was like, You know what, I'm going to look this up in preparation for this interview, and bring my my, my stuff so I found out about 15 minutes before this, that I am a Taurus Sun Pisces Moon Leo rising. Guru. Yeah, I don't know what that means. I mean, I've heard all of the things about being a Taurus before, you know, I feel like when I was a kid, people would be like, that means that you're stubborn and bossy. And I was like, of course, that

Tristan Katz

06:08

sounded rude and earthy. Good things.

Brooke Monaghan

06:15

I was gonna say. Isn't it funny how that's the thing that borrowed itself into my conscience is the thing that sticks around, right? It's like the thing that someone told you once when you were a kid. So yeah.

Tristan Katz

06:28

And the Leo rising makes a lot of sense to me, because you are very fiery. And when I found out you were a Taurus, and not another fireside, I was like, huh, there's gotta be more here. If anyone listening has heard Brooks podcast, or just interacting with you at all, it's like, ooh, she's cut the

Brooke Monaghan

06:46

fire. I am fiery. It's so funny to because this is a new thing that I'm sort of embracing about myself as my fire Enos. Something that I'm just personally like, growing into is not feeling like I need to present myself just so in different situations, to you know, I just my own past and trauma, and all of that has definitely meant that I lived most of my life being very, like, very, very hyper aware of how I'm perceived and how I shouldn't be presenting myself in every situation. And everything being like, perfectionism. comes through strong with that. And this year has been a year of being like, oh, okay, so I definitely want to, like, let my full personality through and let myself be who I am. And I'm honoring myself so much. And people don't always like it because I am fiery, and interesting. And that's okay. It's like a whole thing right now. So

Tristan Katz

07:52

yeah, yeah, we're definitely not taught how to number one be that but also be with it, I think, particularly from people who aren't sis dudes, sis, white dudes, I should say. So that makes a lot of sense. But I also feel like it probably resonates with a bunch of people, too, who almost need like that permission of seeing it in somebody else to embrace them themselves. And this kind of brings me to my next question, which I was gonna ask you to remind folks what you do, which authenticity is at the core of all of it? So yeah,

Brooke Monaghan

08:25

yeah. Um, so I am. What am I learning? I am not. I like people call me a business coach. I think I'm more of a coach for business owners. I think that I hold space for people to grow as entrepreneurs and as business owners. And really what it's all about is I end up working mostly with people who really want to create some sort of positive impact in the world, and are feeling like making their business happen is just this constant effort of turning themselves into somebody else, like the successful version of themselves and sort of compartmentalizing who they really are. And as we all know, when you abandon yourself and who you really are, you sort of detach yourself from your ability to actually create any kind of meaningful change. So I sort of I really started my business, just helping people with systems and operations in their business. I have a lot of management history and project management and process improvement history and I was helping people with efficiency and systematizing things because people were coming to me like so frazzled and thinking if they just freed up some time and space, they'd have some freedom, which is what they thought they would get be as entrepreneurs. And quickly, I realized the root cause of it was not at all that they didn't have the time it went a lot deeper than that. And so I still do help people run more sustainable businesses, I help people grow their business in a way that's actually really sustainable and aligned for them. But what people learn as they start to work with me is that really, it's about moving through a process of no longer feeling like you need to follow all of the rules, and then growing through a process of being comfortable breaking all of the rules so that you can move into being comfortable, like changing roles, like being somebody who gets to call shots and is in charge of stuff and can change things for other people. And you know, yeah,

Tristan Katz

10:36

yeah, Shifting Paradigms, really, like you will find that, like, we all have it within us to do that. Even if we aren't entrepreneurs, because I'm sure some of the folks listening don't necessarily identify themselves that way or a small business owners even but yeah, the work you do, I actually just sent it, you have a new free training that you just shared with your newsletter list, I just sent that link to someone this morning, who she's currently just mostly parenting full time and, you know, really, really evolved on a school level in her community, but isn't like currently, quote, unquote, working. But I think that what you're doing and the messages you're putting out there can apply to like, whatever it is that we're trying to be, quote unquote successful at. And, you know, I think, even just your the way that you've grown your business, and the last, I guess, like year and a half, I feel like in the pandemic is when you really embrace, what you wanted to do is a perfect example of everything you're talking about. So I'm wondering if you would share with us like the journey that you've gone on from that starting point. And obviously, we'll link to the first episode in the show notes, if you want to go back and get the deep dive but like, this next, I don't want to call it up leveling, because it's not like you're improving, but it's like you're blossoming and blooming and to use a really cheesy metaphor into like this new phase of your business. So how is that come about? For you? Yeah,

Brooke Monaghan

12:08

well, this, yeah, this past year and a half has been wild, like looking back on it. I don't know, it's so it's so interesting, because I think that you, we all have this thing where we sort of, we meet this new equilibrium wherever we're at. So a lot of the things that I thought would be different at this point of my business actually are not and are exactly the same in terms of like, I still feel like I'm behind. And I still feel like there's so much to do. And I still feel like I'm just at the beginning. But really, when I look back at the a year and a half ago, yeah, it's like the pandemic hit. And I had really gotten to a point in my business, I had been working, doing this, like process improvement and project management sort of consulting work. And I was like, walking dogs on the side, and this and that. And I was doing a little bit of coaching. And when the pandemic hit, it was like, the whole, everything was just pulled out from underneath me. I mean, I had, I think I was making $34 a week walking dogs, because I had like, two of them left. And I had nothing like I had no clients and I kind of just was like, You know what, I'm just gonna, I guess, like, shoot my shot and just do what I really want to be doing. And I ended up starting my coaching business and working with actually at first I did a little bit of VA work just with entrepreneurs and was just like, whatever you need, I will do it for you. And then through that, realize that every time it was ending up on cold calls with people, I was really coaching them. And I was usually coaching them on the same things. And so that sort of lasted maybe for like the summer and then September of last year, so September 2020, I started my first group program, and I really put together this program to be like, really to do it's still is it still exists, it was really all about this, like you don't have to choose between being yourself and being entrepreneur, there's an option, that is actually the option that I want all of us choosing, which is to route deeper into who you are, and then bring that power out there into your business and make a creative force for good. Like I think that entrepreneurs are such a powerful force. And this past here has been all about iterating that and what ended up happening was people were finishing the program and then saying like, I don't want to leave. Like I've never found anything like this before and I don't want to go. And so I was like okay, well, I'll just create another space that you can come into. And now I have like two group programs running this year. What I'm working on right now is really like refining. What I do this past year was all about just observing, I think, like learning from the relation and ships that I had, and observing what was going on in front of me and what I was really doing and what was unraveling for people. And now I'm at a point where I can sort of refine what I do and, and make that a little bit more intentional. And so all the things that I did over the past year still stand, but I'm sort of changing the structure of it a bit. And what I have learned is that, right, when you think that you have your shit together, you immediately realize it's almost like it's like, right, when you finally feel like you have your shit together, it's almost like you have enough space to look at things with a bit more clarity, and you immediately realize what your vision or whatever it is that you want to create, or better serving your people or whatever, what is calling for you next. And at least for me, I've really had to settle into, like, you're never gonna feel like you have it together. And you really need to get used to the fact that you're just gonna have to keep changing things if you want to, like make this what it wants to be. And so I hope that that answers your question, but it 100%

Tristan Katz

16:13

does. And I know we've we've said this to each other before about like our work, but it's like, what does it want to be like? What is coming through us? Versus like, what are we making happen, and I find that the more I for, I don't know if surrenders the right word, but for lack of a better word, surrender to that reality, at least with my experience, and the experience of folks that I've worked with, or who I'm friends with in the entrepreneurial space, the less stressed out, I am about, like, needing answers, because usually the only things I know for sure, or what's true, and the moment I'm in, like, if I kind of have an idea of what's happening in the next three months, that's a fucking miracle. And that's okay, because I think like, especially if we're talking about, you know, people in this entrepreneurial work, who are here to make the world better, like the folks you work with, and I would say, the people I work with, like, as you move ahead, you're going to get more information and more feedback and more data about what like the world is asking of you. And not from not in like an extractive way. It's like, Who are you actually here to be like, you kind of get called up and called into, like, your next phase of that. And it might be doing the same work, but like you said, just with different structures in a different way. And, like, I love anyone who takes like the free training, which will also link if that's cool with you, in the show notes, thank you. It's like just a short video, maybe 15 minutes or something. And you have this fantastic like flowchart that now you've come up with, of these phases from rule follower all the way up to game changer. And like, I'm sure that structure, in theory was always there. But now you can see it, because you've been in this pile with all these people.

Brooke Monaghan

18:01

Yeah. And something that I would say, like, if anybody is listening to this, and you are an entrepreneur, like I railed against, don't make people fit into your prescriptive frameworks for like, two years, and then one just fell out of my brain one day, you know what I mean? Because rather than trying to, like do things the right way, where it's like, you need to have your framework. And I knew that that was wrong. Rather than trying to do it that way. I just like went through the process. And then through observation, I was like, Oh, this is the thing that exists. And then I, I sort of, like, just let it come out of me, and ended up in the same place, right, that a lot of people like ended up creating sort of a framework for my work. And you can't the point is like, I couldn't skip that year, figuring out what that framework was, I could have a year ago been like, I'm going to create my framework. And I'm going to do this because that's what like successful business owners do. And all that would have happened without it, I would have been like, I wouldn't have been all allowing myself the space to learn it's exactly what you're saying. It's exactly what you're saying. So like, I think that you and now we're getting meta because this is on that flowchart that you're talking about. But you have to go through a process of realizing that just following all of the rules isn't actually going to like be your Savior and then rerouting back into your agency before you can really start really start implementing strategy without it just being about like, I'm just going to do all the right things and then cross my fingers because I deserve it. Like and you know, I think we all have a different story with that. But there are a lot of there are a lot of there have been a lot of times for me where I've landed on the thing that that At, people were telling me all along, I needed to do, but I needed to go through my own process of learning. You know? And also, I will recognize that like, that in itself of like thinking that you can skip over that is such a. I don't know, like, I just, it seems like such a privilege story. You know what I mean? Like that, that following the rules is just gonna somehow, like ever, like, everything's just gonna sort of like come through for you. Like, that's coming from something that is out there. You know what I mean? It's not reality, but it's definitely what we're hearing. And it's bullshit. Yeah, but yeah.

Tristan Katz

20:48

Yeah, I mean, I think when we were talking about the quote, unquote, rules, it's, it's with dominant culture. And like white supremacy, capitalism, fill in the blank has taught us about what it takes to be successful by those systems definition of success. And who does that ultimately work for? Not fucking everybody. In fact, a lot of a lot of people that's hurting them. You know, and that's not to say that every single coach out there, every business advisor with a framework is wrong and doing harm. Like, I don't know that to be true. But I do know that if someone's framework involves like, burning yourself out, and that success means being this version of yourself, even if you're being authentic, but you're overworking that's still not gonna, like get you where you want to be. Because if where you want to be is freedom for yourself and creating that for others. That's literally the opposite in the moment, like we have to be. We have to be that now in the way that we're building.

Brooke Monaghan

21:52

Yeah, the question I think, is like, what is it in service of like, if you're trying to do those strategic kind of things really, right off the bat? Because you think that that's what you've been told, you have to do? Like, what are you doing it in service? Do you even know why you're doing this? I mean, one of the things I was just talking to some of my clients in the training camp that I run yesterday was like, What do you want to hold really firmly? And what do you want to hold a little bit more lightly? And the things that you want to hold more firmly are like, why you're doing this? What are your values? Like? What do you want to be known for? What's the impact that you want to have in the world? What's your vision for how things could be different? Like, those are things to hold firmly. But how you're going to do that you can hold that a little bit more lightly. Right. And I think that if you are moving forward and in, if you're finding yourself scrambling to try to just check boxes, in your business, and we're not just talking about business, obviously, because this is true. Everything that I always want to talk about in business, if you're finding yourself scrambling to check boxes, like ask yourself, why is it is it in service of your values and your why and the change you want to see happen in the world? Or is it in service of trying to shortcut to get some sort of thing that you're you've convinced yourself that when you get it, everything's going to be golden, because I'll tell you what, like, that's a lie, like that, like just hustle to the finish line, and then you'll succeed enough, and then you'll be happy. Like, that is such a trap. We all know that. But it's so easy to fall back into it. And when so when I think that when you are clear on like, it sounds so it sounds cliche, we've heard this a million times, right? Being clear on why you're doing something, but it's true. Like, know, your know what you want to hold firmly know what you're doing this in service of, so that then you can allow yourself the space to learn how to do that. Because you know, yet, if you're just starting you, I'll tell you what you don't you do not know yet, like anything that you're like, I'm not doing this currently, and this is what I want to create out there. Well, you're gonna have to go out and you're gonna have to get some information, you're gonna have to learn how to do it. So allow yourself the space to learn how instead of walking into it and saying, This is exactly how it's gonna go. And then when it doesn't go that way, because you don't know what you're doing yet. being like, I failed. No, you didn't you just learned something. Mm hmm. You know, like, that's what it feels like to learn, you realize you didn't know what you were doing before?

Tristan Katz

24:09

100%. And, I mean, I can say from my own experience, that every time I've tried to do things, the quote right way, yeah, maybe I'll get immediate results in the short term and some money in my pocket and some more people on my list or whatever, but that it does not sustain itself. Because yeah, what I had to do in order to get there was not working for me, and it's from my own learning and for my own agency.

Brooke Monaghan

24:33

And also usually it doesn't even deliver the short term results now. Like I tend to, like people will say to me all the time, like I just don't want to be doing this and it's like, well, then why are you doing it? Well, because that's the way that you grow. Okay, well, has it delivered any growth for you at all? No. How long? Have you been doing it for two years? Okay, well, why so much faith in this thing, then? Why no faith in what you wanted to do? Why no faith and trying things differently? Why is all of your faith in If I don't get this many followers on Instagram, I'm not going to make it.

Tristan Katz

25:04

Oh my god. Yeah, the follower again, Jesus Christ. I feel like we talked about that maybe every episode. Yeah, it's Yeah. And people can smell that in authenticity, like, even if you have the best of intentions, but you're going about things in a way that just don't feel good and aligned for who you are. And with your values, there's things that you are that you're talking about, like holding tightly, like what you stand for, like, what what your vision of the world of the future is, that's more beautiful than what we're living in now. Like, that's not going to resonate in the same way. And it might resonate with a handful of people who you don't actually want to be working with. Maybe, or it's going to attract collaborators that, you know, it's not the right working relationship with,

Brooke Monaghan

25:47

yeah, you're gonna attract other box checkers? Yeah, totally. So if you're a coach, or if you do any sort of work, where you know, any sort of like healing work or anything like that, you know, that you don't want people showing up just there to check a box thinking that you're going to deliver them some sort of, I do not want anyone walking into any of my spaces, who thinks that I'm going to give them a formula for success, oh, my God. Because I know that that is what the marketing world will tell you to try to sell to people, I know that we've been told that there are formulas for success. And I know that if you walk into one of my spaces, and you think you're gonna get it, you're not going to get it. So goodbye, I don't like you need to go and work that out. I want you to try as many of the formulas as you need to try to get that out of your system before you even walk in. So that's one of the ways that I that's one of the reasons why I've like let go of that sort of way of like feeling like, I have to promise things. Because I want people who know that the promises are bullshit. I want people who are going to show up and be like, I am like, I already know that that stuff out there is bullshit. And I'm done with it. And I'm ready to like, show up in service of something else.

Tristan Katz

26:58

I'm like nodding my head so hard, but nobody can see. Yeah, cuz I will say that I have had offers out there where I'll make a non actual promise, like, I haven't used the word I promise, blah, blah, blah. But because of the copy I use, or like the way I've talked about it, people have expectations going into it that just aren't in line with, like what this work is I mean, there's, there's a certain letting go, that has to happen, when you're coming into a coaching space, or any sort of inner work. And you mentioned like healing work, especially where it's not linear. And that's what I think too, is interesting about you having this ongoing group program, the Rule Breakers crew, which you only let people into that after they've gone through your training camp, because they need that baseline understanding of what the fuck you're doing with them. But you have this like rotating list of topics that you will go through each, I think you'd meet weekly. Yeah, and I think that's a really beautiful way to structure things. Because it's like, yeah, we're gonna talk about, like, for instance, you had Charlie and Tristan and I come in and talk about social justice and entrepreneurship, but like, you're not one and done with that kind of stuff. And that's true of all of

Brooke Monaghan

28:12

it. No, yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, that's one of the things that that's actually why I have people go through and I'm changing the structure of my work now, in part to reflect that. Because what I was doing before, as I was bringing people into the training camp, and saying, like, Hey, this is going to be three months. And then if you want to continue to come into the world breaker screw, and now I'm just like, you want to come into the role breakers crew, cool. It's ongoing, because those work never stops. And by the way, you're going to spend two months in training camp. Like, I don't want to create the expectation, I was creating an expectation that there should be some sort of transformation in three months that you're then done with, and you have the option to walk away or stay in, instead of now being like, how about you come in, I set the expectation that this is ongoing. This is a practice. And by the way, the link for you to cancel your membership and walk out is available for you at any time. You don't want to do this anymore. I'm no longer arguing with people about, well, you committed to whatever go. Like, I want people who want to do it, you know, and the thing is that marketing, like online marketing world and business development world, and all of that will tell you that if you do that you're being stupid, and you're gonna lose people and you're not being a smart business owner. Well, like maybe in your world because you're attracting people who you need to keep in through that sort of shit.

Tristan Katz

29:36

Mm hmm.

Brooke Monaghan

29:37

I want to I want to welcome people in and say doors open and it stays open. You ever want to leave you can go because I want people staying because they're actually choosing to stay. You know, that's certainly like I thought I was doing something wrong. In that until my business coach who was amazing Lena West was like, why would you want someone to stay around? didn't want to be there. And thank you. That's what I was thinking this whole time, but I thought I was wrong. And I needed her to tell me that and then to tell me, don't let people talk you out of shit that you know is right. Like you've known this stop letting people talk you out of it, you know, talk about something you want to hold firmly, like things that you know, in your gut are bullshit about the business world. Don't let people talk you out of it.

Tristan Katz

30:22

Oh, my God. Lina is so genius. We talk about her every time we get together. And I'm definitely gonna, I know she has an Instagram, I'm trying to think of where people can find her. But she's rarely

Brooke Monaghan

30:34

on it, the best thing to do would be to go to I believe that its CEO rising Dotco you can you could Google Lena West CEO rising and just get on her email list. She almost never sends anything out. But if something happens, you'll know about it. And you'll want to be there.

Tristan Katz

30:55

And you also have an awesome episode of your podcast with her that just Yes made me smile so much. And Lena has talked a lot about like money and stuff that's really shifted how I've looked at business and how I look at my my own role and whatever the fuck I'm doing. And, and I feel like I've benefited from her work, even as someone who's never worked with her directly, just because you and I are friends. And like, I've heard her on so many other people's podcasts like that. Yeah, she's, she's very magical. I'm losing my train of thought, because my coffee is wearing off. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. Um, so the whole, like, holding true to what you know, is right for you. Especially when it comes to like, holding things lightly with people like coming and going, I just really want to give you props for that. Because again, like that is the opposite of the messaging that we get in any kind of business owner space. And also because like we both I'm guessing have been in programs where we're like, this is not for me, and I want to go and I don't want to pay you anymore. And like get a lot of shit for it from the person who's running it. So I just want to like, take a second and celebrate how healthy I think that is as a space holder. Because, you know, there is a power dynamic when someone's a facilitator or a coach, obviously, we're not therapists. So it's it's different boundaries, but there still is like a responsibility, I think, to not try to control people, which I've also seen happen in a lot of spaces. And I think that you do a really nuanced and beautiful job of like, being real with your about yourself having boundaries. And also like, I don't know, like holding people up as their own most powerful advocates and that their wisdom is what matters most.

Brooke Monaghan

32:45

Yeah, I mean, if you're not doing that, then it's just a matter of time before you have your breakdown and realize you need to start you know, it's just too, it's disempowering to people to feel like you need to do it all for them. Um, it's too much for you to hold, you're gonna have one bad day and realize it was a listing.

Tristan Katz

33:10

This is not set up to, you know, well,

Brooke Monaghan

33:13

I will also say like, you know, I will acknowledge I've had to do deep, like, in therapy, like work to get to a point where it's okay for people to leave my spaces. It's okay for people to leave any spaces, obviously, but I'm talking for me to get to a point where when it happens, I don't make up a story about what it means about me or what I did wrong, or whatever people have lives like, and the and I realized at some point, not that long ago, really, like few months ago, that my urge to figure out how to make everything work in my spaces for everyone and make people stay because they were all comfortable was codependency hmm. And I it was on me as their leader to make my space is what I needed it to be for the vision that I was going to create for the future. And if it wasn't right for them to just let them go. Because if I didn't, what was I doing then? I was just doing something to make them keep hanging me in the serve in service of what? And then what am I showing them they need to do when they turn around in their businesses and know that something needs to change, but they're scared. So, you know, that wasn't something that like, this is like work that I've had to do and like I've had to look at myself and I've seen some like shit that I didn't want to see. And like where is that coming from? And oh my god, like this is exactly what I don't want to do. Well, I can't believe that I was even thinking that right? But that's what it's like being an entrepreneur. Like it digs up deep Shit, you know, and even still, like, I'll have, you know, if it's the week before my like, period, I mean, we're just gonna say it, someone emails me that they're, they want to leave the group, I'm still gonna freak out about it. Because just because of the way that my own shit, but now I can look at it and be like, Okay, what week are we in? Okay, and you know that you have these sorts of feelings about this, it's gonna be okay, you know, this happens, this was expected, we're just going to move on and two weeks from now we're going to look back and laugh about what a meltdown you know, so I guess I just say that to just be like, yeah, it's healthy. And also, I never want to paint the picture that it's easy, because this has come with like, deeper growth that I've had to do and deeper work that I've had to do on myself.

Tristan Katz

35:47

Right, that's ongoing. And like, you know, just because it gets a little easier or less emotionally charged doesn't mean in a few years, you might be going through a rough time. And a similar thing will happen. And it does send you kind of back to that place. It doesn't mean you've done something wrong, or you're not growing. It's just like we're Yeah,

Brooke Monaghan

36:05

humans. And it's just, like, it's just good to acknowledge like that this shit that we see playing out in business is trickling down from larger cultural messaging that we all grew up in. So why do I freak out like that? Because of my fucking conditioning my whole life, that told me that if I were just doing things right, then whatever, you know what I mean? So it's just easy to make up those kinds of stories. And I think that we all do it, you know?

Tristan Katz

36:35

Well, yeah, I used to look at who was unsubscribing from my very small newsletter list and be like, yeah, why did I say that? Like, and that I look back at the previous email. This is kind of embarrassing to admit, but I like try to look at it through their eyes and like, Did I say something offensive? Or did I do something? And like, it's just not worth it?

Brooke Monaghan

36:54

At all? Yeah. You have no idea.

Tristan Katz

36:57

Yeah, yeah. You never know why you're right. Or maybe not quite the right fit for somebody's who's coming to you for help. And I think the other challenge and this is something I think Tristan and I have talked about before is like having the self awareness about that. But like, the feelings still being there. It's really can be really frustrating, because it's like, oh, I'm still a human.

Brooke Monaghan

37:18

I still, like move through this thing. Totally feeling feeling sucks. Yeah. 100%. Like, I you know, no one, my therapists tell you that, like, no one has tried to figure out more ways to just not feel things than me. But hey,

Tristan Katz

37:34

I mean, sounds like a good therapist that yeah,

Brooke Monaghan

37:37

you want to but you want to grow, you know, like you want to you want to grow your business. The reality is, you're gonna have to grow as a person. I just don't you just can't avoid it. I mean, I guess that you could, if you had a lot of money, maybe you could put it in certain places to generate more money, but then you're just gonna end up in a situation where like, you're like, quote, you have, quote, a multiple six figure business and you're actually keeping none of it. Hmm, that's a good point. Because you're just paying a bunch of people, which I will tell you something. There's a lot of those people out there. Most people, most entrepreneurs are not making money.

Tristan Katz

38:12

Yeah, are not making nearly as much as you think or the business is making a lot of money. But their take home is not Yeah, anywhere close to what you think it might be. Yeah.

Brooke Monaghan

38:20

But I mean, like this really like this smokescreen that Instagram has created where everybody has had to hit six figures except for you. Like I'm talking like, actually, like, statistically, most business owners are losing money. And just as a reminder of how businesses work, you can still be having money, you can still have money coming in and tell people how much money is coming in, and more money going out. And you're losing money with a quote multiple six figure business that is totally possible in a profit and loss and it happens and if most people are losing money, then I don't know what is going on with this corner of, of Instagram, where everyone is like killing it. I don't want

Tristan Katz

39:11

YouTube to I feel like has a lot of that. There's also this weird, like, conservative self help thing that's happening right now around that, but I'm not an expert on it, but I watched a video about it, not from one of those creators. About like, improving yourself means like making more money and therefore like you're a better person because you make more money is essentially the message and like, it's like extreme self sufficiency and like, responsibility and it's just it's really, really yucky.

Brooke Monaghan

39:48

And like really good primer for an MLM.

Tristan Katz

39:51

Yes, well, that's what I was gonna say is like, it reminds me so much of some of these other toxic messages around entrepreneurship like even someone who's not maybe doesn't have an overtly political angle to their work, but they're talking about business this way. Like, to me, it's a similar vibe that I would rather not have anything to do with. But I'm glad that you brought up money because that was one thing I wanted to circle back to, from our first conversation with you on podcast. And I know that you have done a lot of like inner work around money, but also the outer work of just, you had a great episode recently of your podcast where you talked about, like, are you setting stuff up to be able to make money? Like if someone wanted to come pay you 10 times of what you think someone would pay you? Are you ready for that? If not, what do you need to do? So I'm curious, like, as far as your own journey with that, how that's evolved in the last few months?

Brooke Monaghan

40:44

Yeah, you know what it is? It's that I think that the, I think that there's a lot, but what's coming through right now, what's at the top of my head right now, is, there was a time when I really thought that things would be different. If I just was making X number of dollars, and I didn't realize that there was this thing going on, when I was in that I mean, things are different when you have money, obviously. Right? Like, things are different. But, um, I think there was this thing going on where like, it was really about me. Like, it was really about me feeling like, am I a person who's capable of hmm, me growing my business to whatever level what like that kind of thing. Um, that sort of weird kind of connection. And what has started to happen now is I'm realizing that like, this whole story that I had going on, about, like, anything in my business, meaning anything about me, was all kinds of bullshit. I mean, like, I mean, there are things obviously that like that you could look to you, but like, we're, we're just really good at like drawing all like creating concocting all these narratives, because that's what our brains do. And I guess the, to get to the point of your question, what I'm realizing now is like, it doesn't mean anything about me, if I decide to price my thing higher, or lower, or what business model I want to have, or whatever. And before, I was definitely telling myself, like, if everything isn't set up to be like, super accessible, then this, if my offers aren't available for all of these people than this, then I'm doing this I'm that I'm whatever. And what I've gotten to now is just like, there's something that I want to do here, and mathematically, certain things are going to have to happen for me to be able to do this full time, I only have so much time, I only have so much time that needs to be split, not just across me serving my clients, but also marketing, like running things, administratively, all of that stuff. And when I realistically take a look at it, it's like, the business model needs to support that. And that means that certain people who are going to come in and certain offers, not all of them, but certain offers are going to have to pay me a lot more than I once thought I would be charging. Because otherwise, this is never gonna work. Like, it's just as simple as that. And I can try to twist my way out of it all, I want to maintain my identity as someone who's never going to do XYZ in their business, or ask for that much money or whatever. But the reality is just like, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna have to do it. The way I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to be smart about my fucking business model. Like, it sounds obvious, but it really takes going through that period of time to realize like, oh, at some point, you're really gonna have to take a look at your business model, and make sure that it actually fucking works. Because I don't care what your vibes are, like, you don't have the container set up for people to come in and give you the money. And you can't support the number of people that it would take to support you at the prices that you have, it's never gonna work. So, so I think I just needed to go through that, that period of time and realize all of that for myself and integrate it and be like, okay, so if I want this to work, this is what it's going to have to look like. Now I'm at a point where I'm like, Okay, if I want to be offering these more accessible options for people who are at the earlier stages of their business, how much do I need to be charging the few people who I have coming in for high ticket one on one, and the numbers kind of scary? And it's like, okay, well, if I want to be able to offer things that are accessible, it's not about shrinking back into this is all in No one's gonna pay me. So I'm just gonna chill out over here. And then being resentful and exhausted, it's about like, doing the shit that I need to do to be able to support people at that higher level who can pay me more money on the other side of things, you know, and we're just so I just think that we come out of like being an employee. And we're just so used to looking at hourly rates. And so we want to break everything down into an hourly rate. And it doesn't work that way, when you're running your own business, because who someone's going to have to pay you for all of the time that you're putting in when you're not sitting across from a client. Not everything is billable.

Tristan Katz

45:37

Yep. Yeah. Like creating your free training that took how many hours? Like you can't, yeah, you're no one's paying you to do that. Yeah.

Brooke Monaghan

45:46

Right. So like, the hourly breakdown thing doesn't work, I would just say stop doing that, because it's just gonna freak you out. That's not the way that it works. I don't even know if I just answered your question. But

Tristan Katz

45:59

yeah, I mean, I was asking generally about just your views on the stuff now. And you know, this is actually really validating for me, because I've recently let go of a couple of clients that, for a lot of reasons, they didn't have capacity for it mainly, for anyone who follows on social media, I have like a really scary incident with a stranger of about a month ago. Now, that just knocked my capacity down a few pegs, which was already kind of depleted. But I also definitely didn't have capacity for clients where I was being paid by the hour, for a very limited number of hours. And in both cases, had accepted at like a much lower rate than what I usually get one case of much, much lower rate. Just because I was like, well, I need the work and did it. But like, I don't know, I think there's also I don't know, everything you just shared, I'll just say again, was very validating of like, the hourly thing, at least for me, at this point does not work. And I'm now like, if I'm doing any sort of ongoing coaching, or program or whatever, there is like a monthly fee, or like a package or something that somebody's buying, because if I'm tracking my time, first of all, it's annoying as fuck. And second of all, that's just that's still based on a very old school system of like, the value of a worker and their labor. Right, that doesn't apply to the type of work I do. Right? I mean,

Brooke Monaghan

47:21

yeah, and like to clarify, like, you can certainly decide in your business that you want to charge hourly, I'm just saying it was like the hourly rate to be way fucking higher than what you would make if you were to walk in, if you're punching a clock. Why, because that business where you're punching, the clock is taking money, taking all of this money, and they're paying like that money from the top is paying for the marketing and for the accounting and for the person at the front desk. And for the person who's monitoring, you know, like the suggestion box, and, and whatever your job is, and to the job of the person. So if you're doing all of those jobs, and you think that the money that comes in should only compensate you for the coaching or for the yoga teaching, or for the whatever, it's just not even it's a it's an illusion. And it's not how any business works.

Tristan Katz

48:16

Totally. And that also doesn't include health insurance, going to the dentist a couple times here, which is what we're supposed to do, and a lot of us don't including myself, because we haven't had dental insurance. Yeah,

Brooke Monaghan

48:25

I mean, you can confidently if you're gonna start working for yourself, you could confidently take what you were making an hour and right off the top, add 40% to it, because that's the bene that's like if you were getting benefits or whatever, you know. So anyways, I just, it's just a thing that I watch happen, where people are really freaked out about the amount of money that they're asking people for, because we care about, like, if you're listening to this podcast, you fucking care about the people that you're serving. That's why right, we don't want to ask other people for more money than then is comfortable for us. And we have usually a really low bar for what is comfortable for us. And that's where you need to take a look at like is the business model than the year working and even sustainable? And who do you need to be bringing in that you are comfortable asking for more money and what to offers for that person look like so that you can turn around and offer more accessible, you know, options for the people who you really care about who you know, are going to do the work and who genuinely need a more affordable option. Like one of the things that I ended up doing through after having a session with you and Charlie was eliminating the lowest here of my sliding scale pricing. And then just turning around and offering a free splat to somebody who I had a relationship with who I know personally is I know is going to show up and do the work. Um, you know, and so I don't know did I like being like, Oh, I'm raising my prices? Not really. But did I like being able to offer this person a free a three month mentorship. Fuck yeah, I did. And that's what you have to do in order to be able to support yourself and take care of people.

Tristan Katz

50:07

Yeah, there are trade offs, especially in the system that we're living in right now. You know, the reality is like, we pay rent and health care costs a lot of fucking money, like, like to live and be well cost something right now. And that doesn't mean that our work and the people who we're working with like aren't moving toward a future that doesn't have that same type of exchange that has to happen for anything to take care of people. But in the meantime, this is the best we got. And like you, you work with your values within that system in a way that, like you do the best that you can, right? And it's also not going to be like, Okay, maybe you chose to eliminate that bottom tier for this round, maybe next round, you're like, actually, it makes sense to bring it back for whatever reason. So I think holding it softly, and like having that flexibility is really important, too, because a lot of folks will ask, I know, in training strawsons Done. And once we've done together, and especially with my work with Charlie, like a lot of people are wanting an answer for how to price stuff or how to structure stuff. And there's usually not one that's going to work for everybody. And whether that's going to work for one person longer than maybe half a year. Yeah.

Brooke Monaghan

51:23

Yeah. And I would also just say, like, I get this question a lot from people. And it's funny to me, because I'm like, I'm still, you know, when you get the question that you're still figuring out yourself, I think that some of them have brought them, some of them brought these questions to the sessions that I've pulled you and Charlie interested in, into, but I don't know that I've ever seen someone asked this question where it's like, oh, yeah, you should be concerned about accessibility, you're really extracting huge amounts of money from it's always the person who is like, struggling themselves. Yeah, who is concerned with this. And I would just say, like, in all of these conversations that we have, about, you know, how we can be more accessible and more inclusive and take care of each other, and, you know, be just be caring with each other and like, you know, be more trauma informed and all of that it's like, at what point are you going to turn around and look at yourself and what you need? Mm hmm. You know, because I think that those of us who are really concerned with how we can do better in this way, eventually, what we realize is one of the things we need to do is actually make sure that we are being cared for, in the ways that we need to be cared for, right. And so, you know, people who are out there making billions of dollars a year are never the ones who are turning around wondering how they can be more fucking accessible. And so it's just one of those things that I like, always want to point out, like, maybe you're not the problem here, maybe you are, and maybe you could do better, you probably could, in some ways, and sometimes you're doing the best that you fucking can. And you deserve to make some fucking money. Like, yeah, you know, like, sometimes, what you need to do right now is, and this is something that Lina talked about in the episode of my podcast, because I asked her this question on on the podcast, and she really drove us home. But it's like, before, you can be worried about how you can give to everybody else, you need to have something to fucking give, right? And unfortunately, in the system that we're working in right now, that means you might need to be focused on making some fucking money. Before you can turn around and be worried about how you can make everything accessible for other people, there's gonna come a point where you'll be able to do that. I mean, that's what I'm having to get real about with myself right right now is like, what is what can I realistically provide for people as a really accessible option? And where do I need to be a little bit more honest with myself about like, growing into higher priced offerings for different people so that this can be more sustainable for me, and I don't end up having to eliminate another lower pricing Tier or something like that, you know what I mean?

Tristan Katz

54:20

And there's some nuance and what you're saying to that I want to make sure nobody misses, right? Like, we're not talking about, you know, aggressive and predatory marketing tactics and talking someone who doesn't have the money into paying you more than they can afford. That's happened to me and it was fucked up. I literally said to it was like a mentorship program I wanted to join that was several $100 a month that I didn't have. And I remember saying to the person during a discovery call, like, well, I'm applying for more credit, just to give myself a little breathing space in case there's an emergency. I have these offers that I think are going to do well but with COVID I don't know And she was like, that sounds great. Like, let's think of more. Like, no, no, not like that should have been a huge red flag to me. But in my head, I'm like, this program is going to help me make more money. So blah, blah. That's the one I ended up quitting a couple months. And I'm like, this is actually kind of bullshit. Now that the work was invaluable in some way. But it felt very predatory. So I just want to underscore like, we're not talking about extracting from No,

Brooke Monaghan

55:23

of course not. That's what I'm saying is like, I doubt that if you are I don't know, listener, if you're concerned with this question. Let's take a take a look at yourself for a second. Are you really raking people over the coals and just like walking around with like, canvas bags with money signs on them full of cash that you don't even know what to do with? Because you just tricked people into? I doubt it? I doubt it. The people who want to ask this question are always the ones who are tiptoeing around how to ask for barely what it takes for them to live. Right. And so I'm just saying, like, you're allowed to take care of yourself. And it's pretty hard to take care of people when you're not taking care of yourself. Right? Totally, you have to work right. Now, if we want to look at the other side of that, then I would say, if you're convincing people, if you're working people through their money shit on a sales call, are you trying to attract people who like are gonna be we like, feeling uncomfortable about the work and have to like leave? Like, what are you? What are you? Who are you trying to bring in? By doing that? Why do you feel like you need to do that? I don't understand that tactic at all. You know, and so I don't even think that it works. But I mean, I, I guess it does, if all that you want is just to bring the money in, but you don't care about the relationship that you have with the person. But that relationship starts the second that you start talking about the offer. So like, you don't have to don't even as far as I'm concerned, I don't even talk to people about if people come to me and they say I really want to do this, but I'm not sure about the money. I'm like, I trust you to make your decision. You let me know. Here's what I have available. I have all these payment plans, I have sliding scale pricing, trust you to make your decision done, not even having to

Tristan Katz

57:10

come and also here's at some how many episodes of your podcast, you have to like almost 100 Yeah, like, here's a shitload of free content that walks you through a lot of this, I know you're putting a pause on this, but like you were doing like these free write your newsletter with me every couple of weeks, I recently had to shut down a free space, I was holding weekly because I couldn't sustain it without getting paid. But like, there are lots of ways where your work is accessible, even if your time and like you're live in the flesh time isn't, you know, free to everybody. So I just I really appreciate all that nuance, because that's something that just again comes up every single episode, it comes up every single training idea that has this kind of lens on it of justice, and like your work and how you're making money and how do you you know, do the right thing, but not, you know, starve. So,

Brooke Monaghan

58:04

I mean, there's nothing that really honestly, like, makes me more Rayji than having a client who is like, having a client come to me who themselves is, uh, has marginalized identities, asking me how they can be more accessible to white, male run big businesses. You know, I want to offer this thing, but I just want to I don't really know if I'm doing enough in this, and I don't really know if they're gonna say no. And also, I really do care about accessibility and whatever. So how do I do this and me having to be like, when we have this conversation, you're the person who this accessibility conversation is supposed to be in service of. Right, like, and, and so I just, I pointed out because it's not that I don't care about it, I care about it a lot. It's just that for this audience, I doubt that you need a lecture on how to be more accessible. And I think that probably no, no, I think that probably we're having this conversation because there's people making shit tons of money doing all sorts of manipulative shit. And you care so much that you're putting it on yourself to try to solve the problem. And the reason the problem needs to be solved is because you are are getting the shit end of the stick. short end of the stick whatever I throw shit and everywhere I don't even know but you know what I mean? Short a shitty I hope that that's clear, but you know, care about it, but it's just we need to check where we are in this before we start putting it all on ourselves to fix you know,

Tristan Katz

59:55

right because we can't fix it alone. First of all, and like I sometimes wonder, you know, if someone, again, not that we shouldn't be mindful? And maybe like, if you're asking these questions about pricing or offers or whatever, in a way that's accessible, or how to scholarship people, there are ways to do it that are more, I guess, in line with all of these justice values that we're talking about, and ways not to do it, for sure, that can be kind of insulting and tokenizing and yucky. So as far as like the how there's some new unfair that, you know, you can totally get some support around. But it's sort of like, have you seen that meme going around that's like, or it's a tweet from some sort of environmental activist, I can't remember their name. But they say like, I don't care that much. If you recycle, I want you to fight oil and gas industry, like, you know, like, how are we dismantling the very system, right, causing these issues in the first place? And not to say that we shouldn't do both the micro and the macro, but I do sometimes think that there is an over focus on the micro and like our own. Our own, like, what is my responsibility, especially as a white person, especially someone who's benefiting from a lot of these systems? But also like, how am I tearing them down? By like, with my actions from a more powerful place, because I've priced something appropriately so that I'm doing more than paying my fucking bills? Right?

Brooke Monaghan

01:01:22

Right. Like, yeah, why, you know, these stories were what we deserve, and worthiness, and all of this stuff comes into all of that, you know, and I just think that like, for showing up in service of like, really, other people's humanity than, like, we kind of need to recognize our own humanity. And like, check ourselves, you know, with it with that. So anyway, so yeah, just just that light topics.

Tristan Katz

01:01:51

Um, well, on that note, this episode is slightly shorter than usual, because I have to go to therapy today. Um, so yeah, this is actually really great Thursday, and I'll just say interesting, we miss you, and we love you and you're hearing it. But so glad you're resting. But before we close for QA, is there anything else you want to share? Before we heart?

Brooke Monaghan

01:02:15

Think so? I mean, I feel like we hit on a lot of it. I was feeling particularly fiery today, too. So I was gonna say actually really good.

Tristan Katz

01:02:22

Yeah, this was almost like therapy Jiu Jitsu.

Brooke Monaghan

01:02:26

Yeah, I mean, if anyone wants to access that free training that you were talking about the, the like, shorter link for it is bit.li/t. yd. Training stands for transcend your dichotomy training. So you can just go right there to get it and it will just give you some questions that you can ask yourself to figure out what the next sustainable aligned action is that you can take in your business and how that works. And I just thank you so much for having me I mean, I love you and for so and so much you're two of my favorite people. And I'm so glad that you're out there doing the work that you do. And so the fact that you wanted to have me back is like a real honor and I thank you for for that and for your trusting me.

Tristan Katz

01:03:09

Thanks, friend. All the feeling so mutual and yeah, I'm excited for this to be out in the world and for folks to hear what you have to say. Thank you. All right, till next time, everyone. We'll see you soon. All the fuckin is independently produced by your hosts, Tristan Katz and Lauren Roberts. To help us keep bringing you new episodes on all things social justice and entrepreneurship. You can donate over on our website at all t FN podcast.com. That's a ll. t. F I N podcast.com. Your donation supports original content that promotes social justice and individual and collective change a portion of our proceeds benefits of radical organization of our choosing each month. Any amount is helpful and greatly appreciated.

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