Supporting the Needs of International Students and International Scholars in Counselor Education | Otter.ai

Supporting the Needs of International Students and International Scholars in Counselor Education

Amber Watkins55min

Unknown Speaker

00:00

Speaker.

Speaker 1

00:09

Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.

Speaker 2

00:53

Hi everybody. Dr Maddie Clark, here I am here this week with two of my colleagues and wonderful associate professors from the University of Nevada in Las Vegas, Dr Jung Nong Kim, who is a associate professor and counselor educator from South Korea, and Dr Chen Chen Chen, who is also an Associate Professor and from Taiwan. And we're here to talk about issues as it relates to international students, international faculty and international counselor education. This is a pretty prescient topic at this time, and I wanted to have them on and share their expertise. So thank you two so much for joining me. I will turn it over to you if you want to introduce yourselves a little bit, talk briefly about your background, your research interests and also what brought you to the United States to follow your path of becoming a counselor educator. I think our listeners would like that

Speaker 3

01:50

to me. Okay, hi, I am Chong Nam Kim. It just made the perfectly pronounce my name correctly. So I appreciate. Thank you so much, Jessica, having me in this very cool podcast, hopefully audience love our stories. Okay, why are just a little background, this is a good question. Just kind of doubt a little made me think about just kind of the where, where I came, come from, 30 things, but in I'm from the South Korea, and I was an elementary school teacher, and I did the counseling work, which I loved, just kind of in the South Korea, and that led me to just kind of decide, make a decision, to come to the United States, and, you know, over the almost just kind of a decade, I would have that work at the elementary school, elementary school, and what else in my research is about parent empowerment. Super comes with a role in college career readiness and Asian American student help seeking attitude, behavior, pretty much in school settings. That's the my research and what brought me to the United States. So when I was just kind of elementary school teacher, which I just kind of loved, was still very rewarding and but I really just kind of wanted to just, kind of, I wanted to study and learn more deeply at the time, just because go to the elementary school every day, every day, very same, very boring, honestly to Me, working with the children like that. But I wanted to just kind of study more, learn more. And I just loved just kind of the book, such as just young, I don't know, you know that, just kind of the group therapy book and Cody book, and, yeah, that's how we just kind of encountered to counseling field. And just kind of at that time, I wanted a person do first and think later. I really regulated later. This kind of when I when I had so many challenges in the United States, why I just did not think more to before making decision to come to the United States, only to blame myself to that kind of a decision I made. But yeah, let you go to United States. Just can study more and then learn more, and that would be good. I did not think about any kind of a challenge as international students, some of the racism, discrimination. I thought it out. Just okay, it will be fun, and let's go. And that's how I just kind of came to the United States.

Speaker 4

04:54

Yeah, I think thank you for having me, and I'm changing Chen, and I'm so of. Fortunate to have maybe Clark and Dr maybe Clark and John Lankin as my colleague and to work well together at UNLV and and I'm also the current president for the association, Association for assessment and research in counseling, which Dr Clark serve as a past president and so so some of the question Dr Claude just mentioned earlier, like Amber, first generation immigrant Council educator. And so my journey into counseling begin from my time in Taiwan, and began from my element and now elementary school, my undergrad. So the council education training system in Taiwan is different from the United States. So we starting have our four year undergrad Council, council education training. So I begin to, you know, after my undergrad and I serve as a school counselor and also the elementary school teacher, and same as drama in South Korea and and the time hits really hard on me as a school counselor and elementary school teacher in Taiwan is the time, and I feel counseling is not a profession, you know, highly recognized in our culture, and a lot of time our the ministry, our principal, they will just treat counseling as a like a storage room, like a counseling room, as a storage room, and they will use the You know, like a counseling time for the addition academia, preparation, like they will take us, counseling time to, you know, prepare students doing their math, so, you know, Chinese or certain things. Yeah. So, so I do feel is really disrespectful when I try to, you know, doing the individual counseling or group counseling, and I, and I realized, is the whole system issue. It's not something I as a, as a, like a, like an intern of counselor, you know, I can change the whole system. So at some point I feel really, really frustrated, and I quit my job, and I said, okay, one day I will be above you, you know, above the administrative and I will change the whole season. I'm not, I'm not going to fight with you. So this is a time I begin to think of my career to get into the graduate college. So I entered to, you know, the master for for counseling psychology in still in Taiwan. And during my master and I, and I went to ACA for my first ACA conference, and I had a chance to connect so many Council educator and I became to, you know, start to thinking about, maybe I can, you know, study abroad, and since counseling profession is originally, you know, from from the Western culture or from the US, and a lot of articles and journals and even textbook I have been learning in Taiwan is all identical as the United States. So I was beginning to thinking about, yeah, is a good, good, good time. Maybe I need to know, open minded and, you know, try to go adventure. Yeah, so, so why leave me here today is a great question. Yeah, it's very similar, you know, initiative like, like, how John, I just mentioned earlier, like, when you in a different cultural background, you did not think of how many challenges and all, you know, barriers you are going to encounter into leaving or starting or even working in a totally different country. But when I get into, you know, as an international student, I do feel struggle, you know, a lot of language barrier, I mean the counseling profession, the content, I don't feel too much challenge, but it's the like, a lot of pressure and the challenges. Is about culture. Is about how to navigate the totally different culture and in the life experience. And you know, a different chapter is like moving from an international student to the international scholar. Oh, my God, it's totally a different chapter for me to eye opening. You know, like for international student, you have searched certain privilege, you know, you covered your visa is like just student visa, back to the time. And I feel student visa is really kind of protect your your identity. Yeah, but when you try to get into the job market, it's totally different story. And you have to find an institution, they are willing to sponsor your working visa. And after the working visa, you have to worry about your green card status. So just different layer add into your life. And it turns out, you know, it's just a triple, a million, you know, premature pressure, compared to my cohort, you know, from my doctoral program. So, yeah, I yeah, I don't know where I just feel, it's the, it's my like, try to reflect my journey how to become a international scholar. Now this

Speaker 2

10:44

is really helpful. You both, like, brought up these kind of like, you went into it with maybe, like, rose colored, like, goggles, right? Like, this is a great opportunity. I'm going to learn so much, which hopefully it was, and it has been good in some ways, but also alluding to the challenges that maybe you didn't even know that you could expect making that huge transition, because I don't know. How could anyone know how hard it would be moving to a new you just don't know what you don't know, right? And the barriers you've had to navigate, the hoops you've had to jump through while being a student, while being a faculty member, while negotiating promotion and tenure and having your own personal lives and family lives that folks who are not international students or international scholars would ever even, maybe even know that you were doing at the same time. So I think that helps open the conversation and helps listeners understand who maybe aren't international students or faculty, like there's just a lot going on here, policy, procedure, as Counselor Educators who, like, I, you know, I have a lot of students who are and we all do have international students, and knowing, how can we support them and get them through this, this period of maybe challenges that they didn't even know that they were going to face?

Speaker 3

12:00

Yeah, I totally agree. So that the internet, yeah, I try not to try to avoid all the news, because that is so depressing, it's hard to digest to and then, yeah, it's harder to focus on my just kind of daily life if I just listen to all the story, that's why I try to avoid and also I just kind of tell my just kind of friend, don't listen to any news, and yeah, let's just kind of live a little far away, and they just do what we are supposed to do, and just to just kind of survive today, and then see just kind of otherwise all of the insecurity in certainty and all of the anxiety, it is so hard to do some just leave just kind of every day, so that, you know, just pretty much right now, what I just kind of speak with my friends, some of the international scholars who are waiting for just kind of the green card, and then just kind of who are just kind of have to review the just kind of read, just kind of issue that kind of the HOV vija, and who are waiting for just kind of already getting sponsorship for the HOV vija and some of the FM vija. So we little different, just kind of level and different, just extend, but we just kind of come on, just kind of the emotion. So we are very just kind of anxious and a little fearful, and then just kind of we don't know what would be happen, just kind of this afternoon and tomorrow, and then some of the just kind of the friend told me a little worse scenario, so hopefully it would not happen, because just kind of even green card, and my friend, you told me, just kind of they might just kind of just kind of support us. We just can. They just kind of want us to be just kind of the leader, get they want, just get rid of us. So hopefully it would not happen like that. But all of the just kind of a story, the rumors and some of the things, because you we are all just kind of fearful like that. So that's why. So that's why it's just so important to just kind of really have the support system and then really give space to share all the anxiety like that. Otherwise, we will just keep those emotions to ourselves so but if you just kind of chill and then a little just kind of listen to each other and support each other. I know this is a little maybe cliche, right? Just kind of Yeah, just important to give space and checking each other and then just kind of the listen to each other, and that is so important, but still, what it is that's the very fundamental things like that. So listen to and check in, and then literally just kind of the listen to their anxiety and student anxiety and those kind of things. I think they're so important. And. Um, and I like that. We just kind of, you know, we had to just global, just kind of kind of website, all the global things like that, and the provide, the fact, because I know there are so many rumors, some of the things like that, that's the little just kind of get all worse, to just make us more worried about that. So they kind of just kind of website and then provide the fact check and what you going on edge of now, this is the fact. This is what is going on, what is happening. Those kind of website that do the information, I think is so helpful. I think,

Speaker 4

15:39

yeah, I agree with John, you know, the supporting group is really important. But I have been thinking about from different level of support is really important. You know, some, sometimes the university, they will they they all have the institution, they have the international office and the international office. Sometimes, my experience with international office, like, for certain time, they will not friendly, because, you know, a lot of officer there they they just want to get things done. And they are, they don't have that kind of my mindset during the time when I was an international student. They are not patient with me. And they try to, you know, like, I just feel traumatized the time when I was a international student, even the first year earlier, faculty at UNLV during that time, the international officer, they are not helpful, and they are not friendly, and it can these can be like second time, you know, traumatized, You know, not only because the policy change or the political landscape. So I feel, you know, from the International from the institutional label, the university label, but also, if the college level, they can, they they can also, you know, organize some of the event for the international student. So the international student or the faculty across different department, they can, you know, come together and share some of the information and become a support group, and this will be helpful, and also the department label or even the program label. So So I do see, you know, UNLV, we, we try to do this for for the recent months, in response to the recent political landscape. But I just feel, you know, a lot of time my international student, they will, they will so fearful, they just reach out to their advisor and some of the immigrant and, yeah, as you know, you know, UNLV is a very diverse institution, so some of our students, they are undocumented, and they are very, very anxious to disclose their their their status, and they don't know how To, you know, approach, or how to advocate for themselves. So I just feel for the for the council educator, we need to have these type of knowledge, you know, a lot of time we, we, we don't, we are not familiar with the current policy, or even the different type of visa, or the older process, how to get a working visa, how to, you know, get a green card status. So this type of knowledge, or literacy, I feel, you know, for the council educator, or even the administrative, they need to have the these type of knowledge so they can understand how to better assist our students and the faculty. So, yeah, I think to have more empathy and understanding and respect is something we need to mentally, you know, keep in mind and the literacy and the knowledge is something we can work on our own to get this, like updated Legal Policy, yeah,

Speaker 3

19:10

yeah, I totally agree, just kind of international office, and I think that become more important than ever right now to provide the support or international student, because right now, international students have so many questions, even international scholar, they have so many questions, because they just kind of, they don't know what is happening right now and that what would happen tomorrow. That why they wanted to reach out international office to get some information so that you are yes, that way, international office so important, and also I agree that kind of some of the support group, right? So I want you lucky to just kind of graduate from University of Maryland, because University of Maryland, there is so many international students, so they just kind of have. So the Counseling Center, they have just kind of support group for for the international student, so that, though, by weekly, that support group I can attend, and also they have the cultural event all the just kind of internet student to hang out that the once a month, even though I don't just go regularly, but still just I can go, Yeah, whenever I want. Why? So that's a good to have, just kind of a summer. And then very in my institution, there is a place I can go anytime, whenever I need support. So that's what I loved, that just kind of things. But as an international student, I think I just shared this kind of story to Chin Chin before. So we have the in college level. We have some affinity group for Black and Asian. But sometimes I don't feel do. I just kind of have to say myself Asian or immigrant. Just, Well, personally, my just identity still, even though it had been over the 15 years in United States, still just kind of the think that I am international scholar. So that's why, okay, oh yeah, I can Yeah, the Asian affinity group, or Yeah. So that's why, maybe good to have the international student faculty affinity group and then just kind of come together, and then little just kind of have a chat and coffee time and just to have it just kind of meal together, whatever like that, and then share the some of the just kind of some anxiety and some of the uncertainty and some of The information like that little literally I shared with the chin, chin, I wish we had the kind of international affinity along with the old, just kind of the racial, ethnic, just kind of affinity grew in our college, like that. So

Speaker 4

21:54

yeah. And I also want to add one, one thing I learned recently, not recently, so I have been advising several international students in council education program, and I I have learned, you know, you know, for our our students, if they graduate From our Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program. And after, if they are holding the international student visa, and for after they graduate, they will apply or PT, but OPD only lays for 12 months. And so after you graduate, you you need to collect a post master hours to enable to get you a license. But we, we within 12 months is super, super challenging for for the student to get all of the hours and to fulfill the license requirement. So some of my international students, they were really upset. They were like, why you guys did not tell us, you know, before we apply this program, and you did not tell us the consequence after our graduate and you just have us to figure out on our own. So some of our students say, What can I do? Should I just find a man to marry and to get a green card, you know? And it's not easy, right? So, so I just feel like there are certain policy I feel like, like, even me and I, I have been an international student, but I did not get through the this process, so I I'm not aware of how critical for our master student to get their license hours, you know, after their graduation. So I'm still learning every day, you know, even the international faculty,

Speaker 2

23:52

I really appreciate all this. It sounds like I like what you said, Ching Chen, about like, respect, understanding and empathy being core components of this. Like, especially for folks who are not International. I don't want to say domestic. What's the way I would describe myself, but Counselor Educators and counselor education students born in the United States going into this profession, how do we relate better with our peers who are international students, who brought up like the idea of affinity groups and making spaces just for international students, not just saying, Go to the Asian American group because you don't, I mean, you are Asian Americans, but primarily, as Jong Nam said, like first and foremost, the identity of an international scholar is really salient because of all of those barriers. And then it is really important for Counselor Educators to have this understanding. I've advised doctoral students who are international, the OPT paperwork you have to sign as an advisor. No one's ever really trained me on any of this, which is maybe something I should be trained on, not blaming anyone other than myself. But you have to learn. You have there's so much to learn, and What's hard is when an administration changes and. Case, it's been quite the drastic change, the cascading waterfall of changes of immigration policy that are just really hard to keep track of, which puts, I think, all of the all Counselor Educators who are advising international students behind. Because how can we possibly keep up with these like 100 updates a day about immigration and immigration policy, all while our students are anxious and fearful and like suffering. If I can use that word, because I can't think of a better word to use right now, because it's terrifying, it's terrifying. So I think you shared a lot about how we can support international students, knowing policies, being empathic, holding space, being understanding. What do you feel like international faculty need right now? Because I feel like we talked a lot about the student need, but a big part of Counselor Educators, I think most of us work with international faculty, maybe not everybody, but I have at multiple institutions now. What do you all need, and how can we be supportive? And what do I need to know as a counselor educator born in the US to help international faculty?

Speaker 3

26:11

Okay, I go first. So I think there's a good question about the international just call us. We a little bit talk about just kind of social, just kind of emotional and support like that, but at this point, a little bit of administrative support, and it comes to me in the department like that, because administrators such as the deans and program coordinator or just kind of the chair department, the chair it kind of needed to understand some of the, some of the challenge International Scholars just kind of have, for instance. So some of the International Scholars already, they have a different, just kind of status. Some of international scholars who just identify themselves as international scholars, they right now they have still H on D vija or green card, or those just kind of acquired, attain the citizen. It was still fearful, because they are not born in the United States, it seems right right now, just kind of not grown in the United States. But those still same, just kind of a situation with the other, just kind of international scholars or hm vija, or just kind of a Greek art a little different level, like that. So so particular, just kind of when the international scholars who just can hold hm vija maybe most vulnerable, then just kind of international scholar who just heavy CDC right now, like that. So therefore the fear for even just traveling to, I know that one of them, I just kind of the colleague, and just kind of thinking about to travel to, just kind of early visit home, country, just kind of family, but a little hesitant, because hold the HMV video. What about, what if I could not come back because of all the situation, because nobody guarantee, what would we have? What would happen? Because there's so many unexpected, weird things happening. So we cannot promise. We cannot say, Oh yeah, you're okay. You're fine. Just kind of Yeah, just travel and come in the combat. Nobody could not say, right now, that's why they're very hesitant, even to traveling and the video family like that, so that that's why we, I would just kind of suggest maybe just kind of would get the letter from the dean and chill that you're just kind of, I know still, but we need the kind of document, yeah, ask them to write a letter and You will come back. You are just kind of work, this university, anything like that. So who knows something happened that kind of letter might just can help, yeah, take all the document about maybe just kind of Additionally, you might need to ask just kind of the teens in chair, but things in chairs, they have to understand some of the fear and some of the things. That's why they need those kind of supporting letters like that. So that's the what I was just, just kind of what I am thinking at this point, like that. And also an HM vija and green card, just kind of status the faculty, they have the feel like that. So so so it is so important for this kind of colleagues, or just kind of some of the things in chairs, they just kind of understand if they ask something, because out of the fear, they might just ask something, because they are fearful about some of the status like that. So they might ask some questions that these in chairs like that because of their status, like that. So then maybe they, it'll be great to understand, and then just kind of that provide some of the support. And then just kind of and try to support those, just kind of the faculty that, you know what I'm thinking right now. Maybe chin, chin, you can add. Some of the things.

Speaker 4

30:01

Yeah, I also heard a similar scene, like some of my colleagues as a international faculty, and they, they would really hesitate to travel this summer, because they are whole, they, they are not they, they will currently under even the green car, and they don't feel comfortable to travel. And but, but other than what John I just mentioned, and though, yeah, preparing the document is a very wise way, if you know you really need to travel out of the country, and this is the way to try to protect yourself. And other than this, I also want to mention a little bit on the hiring process, because I know like moving from the International Student and looking for the job search, and, you know, try to negotiate with your institution about to to sponsor your working visa and also the green card status. And I have heard so many different story from my colleague, my international faculty, like everyone, has different story because different institution, they have different policy and some, some institution, they only sponsor your green card until certain years, or until you get tenure, or until they will make Some condition. And you know, it's just make your life, even, you know, like, like doing your pretend your life, you need to figure out how to get your tenure and promotion at the same time. You need to figure out your, you know, you how to survive, get your working authorization in the United States. It's just the triple, you know, pressure for international faculty. So more understanding, more respect and more empathy to this group is really, really important. And you know, I don't, you know, a lot of international students, they they reach out to me and ask me, Is there any tips you know you can negotiate, or you know, we with your institution, how you can find out if your institution they will sponsor your working visa or green card. I don't have answer. Yeah, it's so hard for us as an international faculty to to navigate if our institution will continue to sponsor your green card or working visa. So I, I want to say, you know, if we can have more, you know, council educator in your you know, to support your colleague, to support your student, and try to advocate for your your colleague, and I think the other administrative get this type of, you know, pressure, and they will be able to, you know, really Amber, how important, how critical this means to international group.

Speaker 3

32:58

Yeah, I agree. So, yeah, something just come up just while listening to chin chins just kind of the sharing about the international scholars like that. So yeah, primaries, the conversation when we just kind of the speak with our colleagues who are identified International College primary, the conversation about the status that the HO vija green card and then the CDC, whatever, like that, because the status is so important to us. So we are very still. I think that I have just a very accustomed to have the survival mode in the United States. I don't have the kind of survival mode when I just kind of back to the South Korea. It's more enjoyable like that, because you I am just kind of, yeah, I was born over there. I just kind of ride it over there, but here, still I feel I'm not belong to the mainstream culture where I'm I'm not really American, like, I don't know, changing you're just kind of children. They feel, yeah, I'm American, but it doesn't maybe, until I just kind of, yeah, yeah, until I just kind of wanted to pass away, whatever make it down to I'm very old still. I think that yeah, it's hard to say like that. So, but anyway, that though, because survivor it is so primary thing and very important to us. That's why that kind of status conversation is so important to us. And we wanted to share and we wanted to get information and and then we wanted to get support from this kind of the from the institution and the colleague and the supervisors like that. So and same time, because of the status. I think that this is my reflection, little my all over the my confidence level is a little lower. I afraid to ask I'm supposed to do because I because my status, because what? What if something happened, if I just. Say something, if I ask something that's a little just kind of affect all over the my confidence, and then some of the my research about empowerment, some of the empowerment like that. So feel more feel less power. Feel I have less power. And that's why I have less confidence like that. So that, also I just kind of need to observe when I just mentoring the junior faculty and international faculty, yeah, I just kind of went through those process. And also I saw some of the desk provider, they take advantage of international scholars just like that. I know that we are so upset and very angry, but there, you know, yeah, that's what it is we have to just kind of overcome, and then we have to just kind of that, just kind of experience like that. So that's why it is so important to have a mentoring employee, to reach out any kind of just kind of the support group and mentoring group, and just kind of, I know that would be our wishes and ask ACA, and just kind of that we our professional organization, we have that just kind of the support group, and then even just kind of that in same institution, and we have can just, can reach out any kind of some of the international scholars to Just kind of guess, I think it's so important to have the kind of mentoring, the relationship I wanted to add to that thing. I

Speaker 2

36:30

think that's such an important point that I hadn't really keyed into, is the vulnerability of being an international student or scholar, which is just magnified now in the current environment, the closest thing I can like provide as an analog is like being when you're pre tenure, like you don't feel like you can ever rock the boat in any way, because that just puts your promotion and tenure in jeopardy. But what you're saying, and this makes total sense now that you share it, is you could be taken advantage of, implicitly or explicitly, and have that feeling like it's incongruent and uncomfortable, but you can't do or see anything about it, because supervisors or people above you have your life in the US right in their hands to sponsor you to continue to work here before you have your citizenship. If that's something somebody chooses to pursue. Yeah,

Speaker 4

37:21

I just feel like we have been discussed so many barriers, about, like, how many challenges for the international student and the faculty. But I still want to say, you know, as an international scholars, we, we do have some privilege, you know, I mean, we can try to think of the way like, turn our downside more positive. Like we like, like, I begin to reflect about like, how many privilege I have been, you know, holding to do the inter country research, and I have so many international partner and so many international connections. So I can find that, you know, like I have been building the, you know, research team across different countries, like in Taiwan, South Korea and Malaysia, Macao and I serving on the overseas dissertation committee, for certain, you know, international student. And I just feel like this is something we try to bring our own strengths and the connection and opportunity to this country, and we need to feel honor, you know, you know, like certain time i i do holding the same, you know, question or doubt on myself, as Jonah mentioned earlier, you know, a lot of time I feel like, is it? You know, like you, you, you feel you, you transfer from a from somebody from your home country, into a nobody in this country. And you will, you know, you are switching between like, from a socially dominant group person into a, you know, like a, like a minority, and try to survive in this home country. And I do feel certain way and reflecting the whole journey, you know, for my immigrant journey, but, but I still feel, try to thinking of the way, like, how many, you know, benefit I have been receiving, you know, through my status as an international scholar.

Speaker 3

39:36

Yeah, that's good. That's good to your little talking about the other side about some of the benefits, some of the opportunity, right, some of the contribution, yeah, I like it kind of part, yeah, I agree, because so I can bring different perspective into this kind of this society, right? Because that's a little bit. Kind of thinking personally, right? So, one side, one side, I just kind of hard to understand some of the some of the cue and some of the little culture, just kind of things nuance here. So, yeah, I just kind of spoke with my friend. Yeah, about that. You know that if I just kind of lived in South Korea, if I, if I met someone, and there are some of the just, kind of, some of the things, oh yeah, I can see this person, this person from the just, kind of, maybe just kind of from the soul or southern part, and then, yeah, this person might have this kind of things, but no idea here like that. So that's the one side, and that you hard to, sometimes a little really hard to understand some of the cultural nuance. And that really made maximum difficult to be just kind of quickly, just kind of connected with the people. But the other side, that's the edge, just kind of chin. Chin mentioned a little blank, so I might have less bias. Let's just kind of some of the stereotypes about certain things like that. So and also sometimes I see some of the culture, mainstream culture in the United States, a little little one step away, right, just kind of a little a little bit outside, or just kind of at the margin, I just kind of see the What you going on in the center, and then I might just kind of have a little more objective perspective, or different perspective, like this, and then I can just bring those things into my class, and also in my research, A little little bit different, just kind of perspective like that, so that maybe benefit like that. And also, yeah, resilience, because anyway, we have to be surviving here so, so we just kind of try to figure out, and then just kind of try to solve all the kind of the things like that every day have to live. Whenever we face something, we try to solve those things. So that kind of resilience, I think that I learned here, like that, and then I tried to just kind of use the kind of resilience in classroom, and when I teach my student, because it is so important to have the kind of it is important to just kind of help some of those, just kind of kid from the marginalized background, to just kind of have that kind of resilience that's and just like empowerment, it is, so one of the keys to have to be survived just kind of any kind of environment, particularly kid from marginal background. So that's why, just kind of, I a little emphasize that just so important to just kind of help in counseling, to just increase their resilience, though, when they just kind of help those kids in the school setting, at the school counselor, and that is the one thing. And then exchange mentioned that, yeah, I can just kind of bring some of the what, some of these I learned from the my home country, just kind of in South Korea, and collaborate with them, and only to bring just kind of some of the, some of the things, what did happen in United States, in the South Korea and this, and they're little, just kind of a Little discuss it together. What did you like to just, kind of when we just kind of apply those kind of things into South Korea, and also, I just kind of a little bring back the some of the things that happened in South Korea, in the United States, like that so and I can just kind of with our little just kind of go both just kind of the Collaborate here and they collaborate with just kind of the people in South Korea and also some of the colleagues from the just kind of different country like that. So that's the way benefit. Just kind of because the US, it is so good place to just kind of meet with, just kind of people from different just kind of country, different background, just kind of, yeah, so that's why it is so good to we have a good opportunity to collaborate from just kind of cross, just kind of the country,

Speaker 2

44:13

yeah, I appreciate that. I think we, you know, came into this looking at the barriers and kind of problematizing this. And we want to, like, recognize the struggle and the things that are hard, but it's also important to talk about your resiliencies and the strengths. And obviously, you know, international students, international scholars, are here because your programs, your institutions, have found that you have something to add. You are important, and your lived experiences, viewpoints and knowledge is is, is powerful and helpful to the people around you, I can say, as a person who's like educated international students, they there is always something to learn from international students about how I could do something differently, or how something cross culturally may look or may be different. It is incredibly beneficial and powerful in a in a classroom, especially when it's. Based on relationships and learning about how to work with people who are different than us, which is a core component of what we're doing as Counselor Educators, right? So we're winding down here. I wanted to give us a few minutes to wrap up. Did you have any final thoughts, things you wanted to share, or thought might be important, as we kind of talk about this current environment for international students and faculty.

Speaker 4

45:29

I yeah, I probably want to add one more thing is, like, for the council educator, we need to be all these type of humility, you know, because, you know, a lot of time we, you know, the counselor educator received their training in the United States. And is the lot of training model here is really colonized, and we, we, often time we use these type of a mindset to communicate or to collaborate with our international partner. And the this will be something you know, is not in the mutual respect. And so, so I So, I know, you know, like we have been in counsel, education, in counseling profession, we we begin to really emphasize the multicultural and social justice competency, but I just feel like we need to have more, you know, when, when we reach out to the international partner is, you know, instead of like, how We, as a US based Council educator to teach you how to do this, instead of saying this or having this mindset, but open to like, like, like, where we can learn from you, you know where you know if we can learn from each other and and respect each Other, because a lot of time counseling or mental health or depression is totally different meaning in other country, and, you know, different country, they probably have different system. They they are. They are how people they they seek out for the helping. You know, mental health helping. So, so I feel this type of colonized mindset and I and I, you know, oftentimes I reflect on myself, you know, because I have been in the United States more than 10 years, and I begin to, know, you use these type of colonized mindset when I communicate or collaborate with the people in Taiwan, like a very simple example. Is that when we ran the research meeting and I want to schedule a meeting across different country, and I just easily send out the calendar invite and add the Zoom link, we start asking them, Is this appropriate, playful for for you guys and and I just assume everyone they will, they will use Zoom, you know, but instead, and I was waiting and waiting, and then people can, you know, email me and say, We don't have zoom, we don't use Zoom, and we, and we use certain other things. And so I just feel like, why we, you know, is type of the mind mindset. We are operating without asking. And we just assume people, they will follow us. You know, we will. We are the standard. So I will say just, you know, these type of mindset we need to change, and to be, you know, more more respectful and and, and have more self reflection.

Speaker 3

48:52

I totally agree. I have allergy I'm so sorry, and there are little learning mode, and they just kind of things. I'm glad that we don't have a video right now. So one thing I just wanted to add this is maybe just kind of the saying to myself, like that, because you in this is just kind of the time, sometimes it's just so depressing, and just kind of so one time it is so depressing, the other time it is so angry. And then I feel, what can I do? So I'm glad that I can write something so writing maybe just kind of helping me to explode all of the rages all over the just kind of angry like this. And also I'm glad that I can I just have a classic, sometimes classic, because you just, whenever I go to the class, I just could really try to say something, because it's so yeah, all otherwise, it's hard to survive right now and and I'm glad that my students and just got so many immigrants, and they know that their parents, their families and right now just kind of have some just kind of aware what's going on and that they are just kind of. With the family and the people just kind of affected by all of it happening right now. So it took to just kind of I can say something and then a little share something in the classroom like that. But yeah, I think that I tried to just kind of do what I can do. It just kind of within my scope, within my knowledge, through the writing like that. So I know that, because I just came from very just kind of, yeah, I when I was young in South Korea, we, we had the dictators. I know what it is like, because all of the self censorship. And then I tried to just kind of think twice and three times, because then whispering to my family, and then my my mom said, don't say to others. And this is only within my family. I remember the kind of this and the WoW in the United States that the leader just kind of feel like, I come back to that kind of the time when I just used to and in South Korea, but I think that I just kind of Yeah, just for advocacy, and then just kind of speak out through the just kind of for me, writing like that, and then just kind of encourage my students to reach out all the immigrant and spend just kind of that family like that, and through the counseling and providing support, and then yeah, that's the what I think just yeah, we needed to do what we can do, instead of just kind of a little, just kind of be hidden and hide and just to, just to avoid that dominated by all the fear detected, what I just kind of tried to tell myself, and then try to take action based on my just kind of the thing,

Speaker 2

51:46

yeah, I appreciate that. Like focusing on removing ourselves from our limited perspectives and understanding that we are really limited, even by the Zoom Link was great. Like we are, like, dependent on Zoom. We're on zoom right now recording and thinking outside the box of very simple things, but that also relates to very big things that aren't so simple as a zoom link and a calendar invite, and like you said, jogman, like focusing on what we can control in ways that make us feel safe and whole and managing our wellness, because there's a multitude of emotions and feelings that can come at any given time, and how You can react to those and keep yourself well as reminders for international students and faculty navigating this hard time, right? Because the audience is includes those folks who are listening to this podcast. So I appreciate you all coming on and spending some time with me today, sharing and being vulnerable and sharing your perspectives I think are really valuable, and I am so glad you're here, not only on the podcast, but here with us and sharing your knowledge with our students in our profession. So thank you both so much. Thank you.

Speaker 3

52:48

Well, just kind of inviting us and then just kind of give a chance to us to totally share our experience with that just kind of, this is a very I know that this is very healing, and they're just kind of fun. I was a little nervous before, oh my God, just kind of, what can I say in the pocket? So what about just, kind of all the audios, a little bored, and then they just kind of not listen to this kind of podcast. We have a few, just kind of the fears the audience, like the but anyway, yeah, so it turned out very just kind of I enjoyed, and then I really appreciate you just kind of inviting us and yeah, have a chance to speak about our experience ourselves.

Speaker 4

53:30

Yeah, thank you, Maddy. And I think this is a really, really powerful way, you know, include us and and open offer us to this podcast to share this really urgent and critical issue. And I think, you know, like not a lot of time, we have other international faculty or student, we have these type of resources or assets to be invited to talk about the these, you know, sensitive topic, you know, so I really appreciate you recognize how deep, how important the these can help for our counseling profession.

Speaker 2

54:14

Thank you both, and thank you for our listeners. Thanks for listening to our episode, and we will catch you again soon. Bye, bye,

Unknown Speaker

54:21

bye.

Speaker 1

54:27

Thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today, we hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept, as always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe. You.

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